Beginning For Beginners with Hamish Blake & James van Cuylenburg

Have we ruined the art of being a beginner? 💌 To join our journaling club, with 9,900+ others, subscribe to my imperfect email - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ With guest host Hamish Blake, we welcome back friend (family?) of the show James van Cuylenburg to expertly guide us through beginners’ mindset: what is it, how can we harness it, and what is the best way to model it for our kids? In a time where kids are wanting to be the GOAT of a sport they learnt about yesterday, we’re winding back the clock to reframe the anger and frustration of trying a new skill, and to learn just how great persistence is for our identity. James leads us through why we avoid discomfort, the role of dopamine and reward, and when to allow ourselves to quit something. This episode contains lots of helpful advice for anyone wanting to adopt a beginners’ mindset, and embrace ‘friction maxing’ as their next expedition into embracing discomfort. Chapters 00:00:00 The Beginner's Mindset 00:01:32 Childhood Choir Days & The Pressure to Be the GOAT 00:10:32 Frictionless Society: The Dopamine Problem 00:22:08 Friction Maxxing: Inviting Discomfort Back In 00:27:49 Process Over Product: Finding Joy in the Journey 00:33:51 Persistence vs Endurance: The Art of Sticking With It 00:49:20 The Zone of Proximal Development: The 5% Rule 00:53:03 When Kids Get Angry: Co-Regulation & Small Wins 00:56:22 Shame vs Motivation: The Choir Director's Mistake 00:59:13 James Van Cuylenburg's New TV Show & Final Thoughts 🫖If you liked this episode, you might also love James van Cuylenburg - Love Your Wonky Bricks - https://bit.ly/3VZ1O26 James van Cuylenburg - What’s Your Relationship Status - https://bit.ly/4jFdIrF Hamish Blake - Let’s Talk About Self Doubt - https://bit.ly/4jKDwCQ Dr Emily - You’re Full of Grit - https://bit.ly/3ULXe6W Nedd Brockman - The Man, The Myth, The Neddgend - https://bit.ly/4ilxYvX The Academy of Imperfection - Dr Billy Garvey, Paediatrician - https://bit.ly/4Bpwmdn Dr Billy Garvey - From Boyz II Men - https://bit.ly/4zpm6QQ 📺 Things to watch Unskilled Adult - https://bit.ly/4dYgJQi 🎧 Things to listen to You’re A Good Kid - https://bit.ly/4z9u1Sp 📚Research to research Gretchen Rubin’s work on process over product - https://bit.ly/4z6UTCu Angela Duckworth’s work on grit - https://bit.ly/3WAhuJf 🚲 Things to check out Blue Derby Pods Ride - https://bit.ly/4irThwd Engage 1 on 1 Psychology - https://bit.ly/3Wev2dg 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I like that idea of being a beginner.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  The beginner's mindset.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Starting from a point of almost complete acceptance of whatever happens is good.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Guest host and unskilled adult, Hamish Blake.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  Oh, that bit's still hot.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Joins us to talk about the power of discomfort.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  With clinical psychologist, James Van Cuylenburg. He's our cousin.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  Teaching ourselves to embrace the process of learning and not being an instant expert is what's essential. And this is where I think kids are being taught the wrong message.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  I've noticed with a boy, let's say between, you know, seven and 13, wanting to be the goat.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  As in the greatest of all time.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  And I've said to my son, I'm like, hey, no one's the goat at school, but it's a hard thing to communicate to kids.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Totally is.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  They're like, how do I be the greatest of all time today?

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Anything that requires growth or skill acquirement, you've got to go through a period of difficulty. It has to be uncomfortable. That's essential.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Actually, I went for a run the other day.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  You did go for a run, didn't you?

• 1:04Speaker 03

  I went for one run.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Love to get you back, not as the host, but as a guest. I mean, you've had Ned Brockman on the show. I'd love to hear.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Elite running.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Love to get Ned as a guest host and just talk to you about your run.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, the hill killed me.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Save it for your end.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Don't give it all away because now we're not going to buy the book. Run and Done by Ryan Shelton.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  Well, we must begin with an enormous apology to all of the Josh Van Cuylenburg fans out there. Josh is sitting this one out because for a very, very good reason.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  You can start fading that down now.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, great. You're happy with that?

• 1:49Speaker 03

  This is terrifying, Hamish.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  I'm just working the sound effects board here, guys. Never really allowed touch buttons. Keep going, right, going well.

• 1:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. So our guest host is in charge. Josh is usually in charge of fading down the music. Hamish, you're doing it. I've never seen you concentrate so hard.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  And went back up again.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Wow. I mean.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  No one gets to hear this bit.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Now it's too loud. Okay.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  That's full volume now.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  We, I mean, incredibly, we are talking about a beginner's mindset today. So what better way, what better way to see that in action? Okay.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Okay. Wow.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  That was excellent.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  We had a big chat before the episode. Bridge, just remind us, this is all about James Van Cuylenburg today.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  No, no, no, there were two points to hit. There were two points to hit. Let people know that Josh isn't here. I'm sitting in his chair. And together, we're all the hosts today. And we're interviewing James, who is the star.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  No, we are. We're very lucky, Hugh, because we have your cousin.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  James Van Cuylenburg. You play, people know James because he's been on our podcast, on The Imperfects.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Yes. So this is your third time with us. James is an APRA endorsed doctor of clinical psychology with over 15 years of experience. James also co-hosts a podcast called You're a Good Kid, where he speaks to a diverse range of guests about how their childhoods have shaped who they are today. You are an extraordinarily talented musician. My favourite parts of Christmas is just sitting down listening to you entertain us. And the last time you were on The Imperfects, you spoke about relationships, the ins and outs of attachment styles, what intimacy looks like through life's changing seasons and how to start a conversation with your kids about the birds and the bees, which I did after that episode. Thank you very much. And the time before that, you spoke to us about how to love your wonky bricks, so the stories from your past,

• 3:39Speaker 01

  and the integral role of self-compassion in our lives. And we have you back today because we would love to do an episode with you on beginner's mindset. And the wonderful serendipitous, so Hamish Blake is here as co-host. And your new TV show, Unskilled Adult, is a, I don't think it was what you probably set out to do, but it's a wonderful exploration of exactly that.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  I, yeah, I didn't sit down with a team of psychologists to figure out the show, but it turns out that's exactly what it's about.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Do your research.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  I'm even better. I just knew.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Just vibed it out.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  I might get honorary doctorate.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  I just want to share a photo with, you sent me, when the idea came up of, we want to talk about beginner's mindset with you. Hamish is going to be a co-host and you sent me this photo, which I need to share with Hamish now because it's quite extraordinary.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Very special.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  So there's the photo that James sent me.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  And if you're listening to this, just a quick side note, a bit of an interesting, interesting announcement. If you're listening to this on the Apple Podcast app, you can actually switch this to video, see the picture. Because we're on video now on Apple Podcasts. So you can just switch to video, see the picture, and then you can.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Oh, God, this takes us back.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Yes, it does.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Are you in that?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yes, and you're in that. So this is a reunion.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  This is where choir buddies.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  So this is a photo, Hamish, explain, this is from when you were in a choir.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  You don't see robed children anymore, do you?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  A robe, a robe. Have you ever worn a robe after that?

• 5:13Speaker 02

  No, I didn't like wearing it at the time either.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  I mean, it was wild. We were in the National Boys Choir.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  And we used to sing. It's only now, maybe I've suppressed this.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  But it's only now, just looking at the costume that we had to wear. Like, why did we wear that? It was a red robe with a lamb skin fur collar.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  It's a bit cultish, isn't it?

• 5:34Speaker 00

  It's really cult. It's not a normal thing to wear. But at the time, we're like, well, I guess everyone else is wearing it. And because you're little, like, we're like nine years old or something. You, I guess we thought, there's no, you don't have phones or the internet. I guess you just figure, I guess this is what other choirs wear. But now that I'm an adult, I'm like, that doesn't happen. Why did we have to wear those robes? This was us in the National Boys Choir. And if I'm, and it looks like there's a pharmacy in the background, which would lead me to believe we were probably singing at a food court.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  I think this was Colin's place.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Yep. Sometimes at mid-Christmas, we'd have to sing Christmas carols in a food court.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Remember it was white, because it was so hot. People would like going down with heat stroke. Because it was always like December in Melbourne. And there was one year where a kid, I think he had a strawberry milkshake before the, and then just power spewed it. Because it was so hot and he had like two litres of milk before the performance. It is funny looking back on it. I don't know what your experience was, James, but I'm just like, I'm baffled that I stuck with it for that long.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  No, same. I had the same experience and it was exciting to get into it in the first place. Like, you really felt like you'd been chosen.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  But in the end, the reality is you're just dragged around to people's weddings and random performances and Colin's place.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, then I had a moment when I was about 12 or 13 where I was like.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  I don't like this.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  I was so scared going to my bowling ball.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Same, same.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Hey, do I have to do the choir? And she's like, no, you don't have to, but you like it. It was like.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  I had the same experience. And I'll tell you something, this just came back to me now. This was awful. And sorry to throw National Boys Choir under the bus a little bit here. After Carols by Candlelight was when I formally quit.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  And I was feeling so guilty about it, you know, as a kid, quitting the choir because it was made up to be this big thing. And so my parents came with me as I built up the assertiveness to tell the team. And he said to me, look, if you quit this, you'll be quitting things your whole life.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  And won't amount to anything.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  And I was shattered.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  That's a big thing to saddle a kid.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Can you believe that? I was 12.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Horrible.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Or 11. It was ridiculous.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  I suppose it was hard to like, once you're in and you knew all the songs and you know the stuff. It's like, it would be like that thing you hear where they're like, you know, every Navy SEAL costs $10 million because they've like invested that much training.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  So I was like the choir version of the Navy SEALs. Like, the government has selected you. We have put you through the program. You can sing Vivaldi's Mass. You cannot walk out on this.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, it's a, it's a kind of a good segue because the reason, Hamish, that you are here is because you have made a whole show that Hugh and I were very lucky to be a part of.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  A whole show about learning new skills.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  About being a beginner.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  That's why I was like, this is, I would love to come and pick your brain, James, about the experience we've had making this show Unskilled Adult. But actually learning a little bit about the science of being a beginner. And, you know, I'm drawn to it. I like that idea of being a beginner. Because in the show, for those that are not aware of it, I'll do a quick mini synopsis of what it's about. Essentially, it was like getting to a stage in midlife of going, I don't feel like I have tons of skills. Like, if you look at, you know, just anyone, whether you can sew or bake or build a gazebo or whatever. Like, I am impressed by people that have the knowledge to do that stuff. So we set up a business essentially where people could submit jobs between like a few hundred and a few thousand dollars.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  And then we open an envelope and whatever the job is in there, we call them and go, all right, we'll do it.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  And that's a real people doing real jobs.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Real people that have just submitted real jobs and for real money.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  So good.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  And so by inventing that thing of like, well, now we've promised someone we're going to do it, we have to do it.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  So good.

• 9:22Speaker 00

  So that's what the show is in. You're essentially going, well, I have to find a way to do this new thing with the existing tools that I have. And how can I recombine maybe what I know into learning something new?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  I love this concept and it does speak to something quite universal. So I think this is a really good topic for us to dive into.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  I mean, there's so many different places we could start here, James. I think the really, because I'm going to, I'm trying to think of it from my own point of view and adults' point of view, but I can't help but think about my kids as well.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Our six-year-old has tried to ride a bike once and got so angry. At the first time it wobbled, got so angry, threw it down the ground. Has never tried since and we cannot convince her to even. She will not do it because it was scary, it was uncertain, it was, I can't do this. And it made her angry. Her response was to get angry that she couldn't do it. And so I think for me, this chat is about us as adults, how do we, because I think it's so important. The older I get, the more I realise we need to learn new things and start new things. But it can be quite daunting and bend in for our kids as well. So how do we get into a beginner's mindset? How do we get into that state mentally? We're like, right, I'm doing something new. What's the best headspace to be in here?

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this is, it's a great topic. It speaks to something that's going on broadly. That everything, you know, you can think about this perhaps just as technology is increasing, how things are easier or theoretically easier and simpler and faster than ever before.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  It's frictionless.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Right? And, and the idea being that that makes life easier for us. But we're learning more and more how that's actually doing quite a bit of damage and creates a lot of disadvantage. And, you know, if you think about this, like as, as easy as those apps might be and those things that make life quicker. Ah, you know, you have whatever you want, whenever you want it, you know, food or entertainment or anything. It's just instant. Is that increasing our happiness and connection as a society? Well, no, it's not like we all understand this, I think now, you know, intuitively. But what do we do about it? And that's why I think this this concept is so good in kind of thinking about, well, what do we actually need to do?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  If if if all of these things coming easily isn't helping our brains and isn't actually resulting in less anxiety and more connection. In fact, it's resulting in more anxiety and more loneliness. Well, hang on a sec, we've got this wrong here.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  We have to, we have to challenge this, this, what looks like just, you know, it was the promised land of everything's going to be so much easier. But it isn't. So this this whole concept of beginner's mindset is a big, big part of the puzzle, I think.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  When you said loneliness, what, what, where's the loneliness come into it?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  I, I think that a lot of the modern offerings, particularly in terms of technology, social media, et cetera, are solo sports, you know, we, they are replacing the the real world connection, the the sense of working on something together in person, face to face. You know, that the offering is it's easier, just do this on your phone.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  It kind of like, now that we have AI to ask anything, I mean, before that, Google, it's like, so often I'm thinking, I could, I know it would be so much healthier and more interesting to call someone and ask how to do this. If you like, had to get a stain out of your clothes. Now you quickly find out in five seconds.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Whereas like, previously, you might go, I've got to call my parents because they'll probably know from something they learned from their parents. And then you've just got a, just from asking the question, that's an excuse to have a conversation or a connection with them.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And that's just one example, isn't it? But it's pretty much everything now, isn't it? Like, we will, and you can see this, that the cultural momentum, it's just headed this way. Like, it's going to be more and more integrated AI, as you've mentioned. And yeah, technology is only going to get better. So we can't say that that stuff's not helpful. It is, it is extremely helpful, but at the expense of learning new skills gradually and what that does to the brain, I guess we'll get into that today.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  It's, it's too big a trade off. So we need to find a balance.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects. And I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Why do we need?

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Sorry, no, we're, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit, because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  I think the music's a bit much.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Who's playing that music?

• 13:53Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  I think a little bit what we're talking about here is like, you know, journey versus destination. We're tricked into thinking that the destination is the point. Like, I'm hungry, having a cheeseburger here in five minutes is the point versus cooking or, you know, a thousand five hundred years ago, foraging for something to eat.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Foraging for cheeseburgers.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, foraging, finding a cheeseburger tree.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Oh, this one's not ripe, I'll still do it anyway.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  We've, it's got so frictionless that we just get solutions now instead of ever having to kind of work for anything. And we all know working for something makes it a lot more valuable. And obviously, especially with kids, like, that often isn't the way it goes.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Is part of a beginner's mindset, um, you know, I'd be interested to know what things make up technically a beginner's mindset, but is part of it starting from a point of almost complete acceptance of whatever happens is good. As long as you move, you're inching down the field.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Because it is about the the process and, and yeah, teaching ourselves to embrace the process of learning and not being an instant expert is what's essential. And this is where I think kids are being taught the wrong message. I think I spoke about this on, last time I was on Imperfects, that they can jump on YouTube and and pull up whatever they're interested in. And it's flooded with the experts, the people who've already mastered it, already good at it. And so they, they're just seeing like that sense of, oh, okay, well, if I like something, here's the, here's the very top level straight away.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And so it's reinforcing this idea that, oh, if I'm not capable of that, then I'm a failure. You know, there's this implicit expectation that kids are really good at something straight away. And I think, as you mentioned, you know, that, that, that the kids are, they're very susceptible to that and and really worried about it.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Anyone that's got a young, I'm just, I'm going to say boy, or I'm sure this happens in girls too, but I've noticed with a boy, let's say between, you know, seven and thirteen, wanting to be the goat is like the, just the starting point.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  As in the greatest of all time.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Like, straight away being like, oh, you know, whatever, Jeff at school.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  He's the goat at that, like, that's what's hailed as like the high status thing. And I've said to my son, I'm like, hey, no one's the goat at school because you're at school. But it's like, it's a hard thing to communicate to kids because they're like, no, no, but how, how do I be the greatest of all time today? At the thing I found about, out about yesterday. Yeah, I need to be an instant greatest of all time.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  And also to just go over, you said there, James, like, our eldest, when he loves sport, he will watch it. And the way you consume it now is not like, we used to watch it, which is like long form, watching five days of a test match. So if it's soccer or cricket or basketball that, that, that, that he loves, when we go outside, he wants to reverse sweep the first ball, which is an impossible thing for most people. He wants to shoot only three pointers because Steph Curry does that. And in soccer, when he started, he wanted to having shots from outside the box because he sees Messi do that.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And the frustration and the anger and the disappointment when he couldn't do that. And it was, it was that exact thing of like, I'm going to watch the best do it and that's what I'm meant to be.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think we're, we're just sort of training kids to feel this way. By nature of a society that wants everything now and wants everything fast and easily. So when we expect them to be patient and, you know, go slow and see the long term benefits of sticking at something, that is counterintuitive to pretty much every message they're getting from almost everywhere. So is it any wonder that they struggle with that and that adults struggle with it too?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  I've referenced this a few times on the podcast, but there's a woman called Gretchen Rubin, she's an author. And one of the things that I read from her years ago, which really resonated with me, was the idea of process over product. But I'd grown up thinking, well, that, you know, I'm only, I only have value and I only, the things that I make are only worth anything if they're really, really, if it's the best TV show I could make or whatever.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  And I was so attached to the product being brilliant that I was willing to sacrifice the enjoyment of the process in order to get that. And then I've really learnt that in a practical sense, since I've like started like painting. And it's, it's an incredible experience. Like, I mean, even just doing a little bit of painting that I've done. I don't know what I'm doing, but I know a little bit more than I did six months ago.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  And it's such a great feeling.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  But you find out through the doing, right?

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Like, I think that's the, that's the thing that I want my kids to experience too.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  That life is in the doing. And and almost, I would argue, even just hearing about that, right?

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Do you reckon this statement stands up? Anything good that's ever been made has to be unplanned to some extent. Like, you have an idea of where it's going, but then as you start making the thing, it has to evolve. And, and that's, but you wouldn't want it any other way. We love life because we don't know where it's going.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  You're telling yourself a different story. That's what I like. It's when it's less about the outcome and winning or losing or success or failure, it's about what do I gain? It's the friends we made along the way. You know, like, that's, if you can teach a kid and teach ourselves to think that way, you're, you're going to feel really different about engaging in something. So what's been the difference for you? How does it feel to have that mindset instead of an outcome mindset?

• 19:25Speaker 03

  I put off painting for a long time because I was like, well, I can't do that because I'm not, I would sort of tell myself, I'm not a painter. I don't know what I'm doing. And it's also the fear of doing it and it not being, like, not being the goat essentially straight away. And I think since doing it and then, it's sort of like, what happens, I guess, is happy accidents happen.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  So you're putting paint on the canvas and there might be like a little bit of leftover blue on the palette from the last time you painted. And you, I didn't mean for blue to go on this brush stroke, but there is. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. And so it just sort of gives, it gives me confidence to just keep playing and just keep trying stuff. And then unexpected things will happen. And then the more I keep trying, the more I get confidence to try new things and new things and new things. And I'm not going to ever be, I mean, who knows, but I'm never going to be the goat of a, I'm not going to be the greatest of all time painters.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Stop then.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  You're not going to be the goat. What's the point?

• 20:27Speaker 03

  But it's so fun.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 20:29Speaker 03

  It's so fun.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  So that's a really, really important reframe that you're talking about and something we can try and remember when we're teaching kids or even thinking about that ourselves. It's a really good way to change the story and incredibly important. There's also some really good research around talent versus, you know, grit and perseverance. That talent's not a good predictor of of good outcomes.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  Really?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  It's just a starting point, you know, but effort, you know, obviously, so that leads to skill. And then skill plus effort leads to good outcomes. So in that sense, you know, effort is twice as important as talent.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  It's true. I think, I think a lot of parents in this day and age would love to be able to. Communicate that idea that I think our generation has, but it feels like it's dying out of, of, you know, for want of a better term, boring reps.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yep. But isn't that a hard sell, right?

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Because you've got to stick at it and it might be boring and it won't be very rewarding yet.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  That is such a hard thing to buy into. My gosh, I'm struggling with that with my eight year old at the moment. You know, she loves playing piano.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  And I don't have a link to Sam because that's exactly why I quit piano.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  This sucks.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Well, time to start again. Yeah. New episode of the show, maybe.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's really, really difficult. And that's the bit that goes against the, the cultural wave that we talked about. You know, it, it's all about instant reward. So trying to teach ourselves and our kids that it isn't actually. There's something more rewarding out there. And, and so I guess what we've been talking about so far is the kind of psychology of it and the, the way we talk to ourselves and think about it. But there is a neurochemical aspect to this as well that we can't ignore. And that's about the reward center of the brain and dopamine and how that interacts with our motivation as well. So do you want to get into that now?

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Right, right. How, how, yeah, how do we, how do we get it happening in the right dosages at the right frequency?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  That's exactly it. And, and we are, as a culture, I think, teaching ourselves to be addicts of a, you know, it's, it's that fast hit mentality. And so what that does when we, when we get an instant reward or someone says.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  What's an example of an instant reward?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Well, just even someone saying, you're amazing, you know?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  I've got, I've got a good example, I think, which speaks to this. It was a, I heard a comedian talking about this years ago. So they would like write a joke on Twitter. And they would get the kind of immediate dopamine feedback from that.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  And, and that was sort of enough to keep them going rather than putting in the effort to the bigger script or book.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  That was actually meaningful to them.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. And, and it has, it has an impact. It has a measurable impact on the brain. You know, we're, we're learning more about concentration, memory, mood. You know, like if you think about it through the, through the lens of addiction, you know, what happens to someone when they just need that thing over and over again? Of course, with sustained instant gratification over time, that hit doesn't hit as high.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  And so you keep chasing it more and more and more. And in the end, you know, your capacity for sustained attention and, and long form reward is really diminished. And the sense of that even being appealing, you know, is, so I don't know how often your kids say, I'm sorry, we don't all have kids, but how people say, I'm bored. You know, it's like, it's really, really quick for my kids to say that. And I'm like, oh gosh, you need to be bored.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  It's so important to be able to sit with that feeling and, and not be rewarded all the time. But it's such a battle. Like I, this is, I'm speaking about my own home here. Like this is really challenging.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  It does feel like we're fighting just like a world that has been engineered to give them like instant dopamine and instant, like even just kids toys are just, you know, they're, they're small. They hold their attention for two days. Like, you know, for anyone that's got kids that are into squishies or whatever. Like it's just a thing of like, this is just sort of silly.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Just kind of fast. It's like sugar for the brain and then it's on to the next thing.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  The sugar analogy is, is very apt. And so that's, that's kind of what our brains are doing. So we, we get that, that dopamine hit from an instant reward. When you're hungry, you eat straight away. There's the cheeseburger again or the, the show you want to watch. You can watch anything in the world instantly or listen to any music instantly. It sounds like, like if we told ourselves back in the day that that's what the future would be like, it would have been so exciting to imagine that.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  On demand.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yes. When you had to wait, but we didn't realise at the time that there was actually a lot really healthily going on there.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I have the best memory in year 11 of, so having saved up and then catching the tram, two trams to get to JB Hi-Fi in Camberwell and buying Led Zeppelin's like greatest hits.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  How old are you?

• 25:01Speaker 00

  That was at the time unheard band.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  His debut album.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  It was four shillings. It was four shillings, half a half pence and it was wonderful.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  I forgot my lock. I couldn't lock up my penny farthing. I was worried that was going to get stolen.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And I listened to it on a, in a disman, uh, on the tram on the way home. I was like, this is the, it's one of the coolest feelings I've ever had. Sitting in a tram, listening to Ramble on, just going, like, I've heard this. I've gone and got it myself and I feel, it just felt amazing. Like I listened to the whole album, like back front to back, just like every song. Now I notice myself high five through going, have you bought this song? What's next? And going, no, just listen to the fucking song, mate. Just listen to the whole song.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  So I guess the question is, how do we, knowing that we're all pretty much dopamine addicts in some way, are there steps that you can take to undo it, to just slow down a bit more?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, and, but it does go against that wave, doesn't it? Of cultural momentum, like we really have to acknowledge this isn't going anywhere. Like this is the way society is headed. So I'd be, you know, remiss to sit here and say, we can fix this. We can't. This is, this is the way it's going. But we can personally, with our families and with ourselves, practice balance. Like, think of it like a good diet, you know, a balanced diet. So one of the things that's sort of taken hold at the moment, you might've heard of something called friction maxing. You heard that, that term?

• 26:20Speaker 00

  No, but I, I assume, I can imagine what it is and I'm for it.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you're inviting a bit of discomfort into your day. And that might be a simple choice, like instead of watching that show, I'll read that book, you know? Something like that, where you slow down, where you go away from the choice that would be the most obvious dopamine fix that you could give yourself and choose something else. So what we're doing is getting off that kind of automatic pathway of fast reward and looking for an opportunity for slow release reward or something a little quieter or just more patient or more thoughtful or creative. And that's going to essentially, uh, teach ourselves a new habit gradually. And because it, it will feel good. This is the thing, when we do that stuff, when you invite a little bit of friction in, it's like, oh,

• 27:08Speaker 02

  that actually feels a bit better than whatever I was getting from that other thing. We've developed what the, the unfortunate product of what's going on at the moment with this kind of high speed dopamine hit all the time society.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Is that we have developed a terrible intolerance of discomfort, of friction, of difficulty. You know, there's a mass avoidance of that. And, uh, we're all doing it, you know, to a degree, except for you with your TV show.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  That really could be another term for the show. Huge friction maxing. Take people that have no idea what they're doing and put them in a situation where they must do it.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. Because it's good for us, right?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  So that's the, that's the feeling we get on this. I, I'm a convert because I'm like this, you just feel alive.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  And in some sense, it's so intuitive. Like if you think about it, just in terms of anything that requires growth or skill acquirement, you've got to go through a period of difficulty. It has to be uncomfortable. That's essential. And so when you're talking about like enjoying the process and focusing on that, how to get there bit.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  That's it. It's like embracing the discomfort. I mean, you must know this with your running all the time, like that it's, it's an essential part, right? Do you enjoy that bit, the kind of, the discomfort? Or do you have to kind, how do you deal with that?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Well, speed endurance sessions, to be very specific.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Hurt so much and I feel so nervous before them because I know I'm about to get hurt so much. There's a, every Saturday morning in the summer, I race every Saturday. I wake up going, I don't need to do this. Why am I doing this? I feel so nervous. I feel physically unwell because I've got to race today. And then I get to the race in the blocks going, what am I doing? Why do I choose to do this? I don't have to, no one's making me be here. I'm 46 years old. And then it hurts. And then afterwards in the car that I home, I'm on the biggest high humanly possible.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're just so happy.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, there's so much friction in a 400, remember? It's like, it's so painful. So, yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  So that's probably combined with the lovely endorphins that I hear people get from exercise. So I don't know personally, but.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  I, I actually, I went for a run the other day.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  You did go for a run, didn't you?

• 29:00Speaker 03

  I went for one run.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  You loved it, didn't you?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Afterwards, runners high, James.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, great.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Love to get you back, not as the host, but as a guest. I mean, you've had Ned Brockman on the show. I'd love to hear.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Elite running.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Love to get Ned as a guest host and just talk to you about your run.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  Friction midding.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Friction meeting. I like it. Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  How far was the run?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  For those lessons.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  It was, I was the tan. So it was like.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  That's a big run.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  It's got a hill in it.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. The hill killed me.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Save it for the, save it for your rep.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Save your book. Don't give it all away because now we're not going to buy the book.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Run and done by Raj Shelton.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Run and done. That's not a bad idea. The boy who ran once and told everyone about it.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Very good. Yeah. And, and has that shifted your identity and sense of who you are in the world?

• 29:53Speaker 03

  It did for a bit. Yeah, it did for, for, honestly, for a couple of days, if not a week. I was like, I'm a runner now.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Lap dog.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Hey, lap dog. He sounds like the guy that did the lap. You're not the guy that did the tan lap, are you?

• 30:07Speaker 03

  I messaged, I messaged George, who works on the podcast, because he runs a lot.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  And, and I was like.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  He get it.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  And, and well, George inspired me to go running. So I was like, I want to, I want to run. And I was so excited to tell him afterwards. And he was so excited for me. He gave me exactly what I needed to hear, just the excitement and the validation. And that's, I, I kind of like, well, that's sort of, I'm done now. That's good.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  But you could say that that was an example of friction maxing, right? Trying something that was difficult and painful.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  The thing is, is like, I want to, I want to keep going. And maybe this is sort of the beginner's mindset. It's like, how do you, like, once you've started and you get the good feeling?

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Cause I'm, I, I get the good feeling, like I've, obviously I've run once. I get the good feeling. I get the validation from my friend who I've told that I've done it. But now I'm not continuing doing it. Scientifically speaking, if there is research on this, why, why do I not keep going?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  I think we can, can think about this in terms of habit formation. And then again, that back to the way we're training our brains and the information, like that avoidance that we've kind of developed as a society away from tolerating discomfort. So instinctively, if it's uncomfortable, you're not going to be drawn to do it unless you really work on that as, as a principle that you are going to, uh, go against the grain. You've got to teach yourself a new habit essentially. And society is not going to help you with this because it, it is geared the other way now.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  It's true. In reality, like, I know we're, you know, laughing and joking around with you, right? But it's almost like.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  With me, with me.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  With you, with you. But it's almost like. In a funny way, I guess I was just being the voice there of society, which is like, society's not going to reward reward anyone. Like essentially, no one cares what you do. It has to become an internal motivation, doesn't it? Cause like, society's not ever gonna, like unless you literally win a gold medal at the Olympics or something like it's, that's what, you, you can't ever get into it because you wanna be the best. Because there's only gonna be one best. So is it about finding that intrinsic reason for you, why you will continuously hop back in the fire?

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Again, that comes to that concept of the story we tell ourselves. But it also taps into something else, which is identity. And I think that's a, that's a worthwhile thing for us to think about. But I, I worry for kids that in a sense, if we're saying that something's changed, right? In terms of the way we, uh, think about our reward systems and the way we're motivated from even when we grew up, you know, it was more normal, let's say, when we grew up to persist and, and stick at something.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  It was, wasn't it? I feel like that was a, something that you were just.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Your parents insisted, so you learnt.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  You just did it.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  Fairly enough. I mean, it's what we're talking about with the choir. Like, we didn't know you could not do it. We didn't know you could.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  That might be a negative example.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Well, we're like, we didn't know you could fast forward out of it. So in a weird way, you got the benefits of sticking at something.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Because quitting at hat wasn't on the table.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Well, I, I practiced piano thirty minutes every day before school for my whole school life.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  And that, I just think, thought that was normal. Like I just, it's just what I did because I had piano lessons and my teacher told me to do it, so I did it. But in terms of identity, I worry for kids now that they're getting less opportunity to build a kind of relationship with something that would be very meaningful to them because they're not persisting.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  So these are, you know, what we might call anchor points for us. Like they help life feel meaningful. They give us purpose. You know, you have direction. Because well firstly, I feel a great kind of association with this thing and I'm proud of it and can show people my progress. But also it gives me hope because okay, well, there's this like future that I can imagine now with that thing by my side. And, uh, you know, again, like all adults listening to this are probably going, yeah, that's, that's this and this and this for me. And it's nice to have a little cross section of those and be open to new ones like you are, Ryan. You know, that's, that's really healthy.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  I think the word persist is a great, I think that's an important one because it's, you know, we're talking about athletic achievements and stuff. And often they're referred to as endurance sports. But what we're talking about, whether it is a piano or a skill or anything in life, like enduring is probably the wrong word because enduring, like in the case, there's some level of discomfort that isn't healthy. But persistence, there is discomfort, but it's, it's like, there's a joyfulness to persistence.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Where you choose to keep going because you love the process of keeping going.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  They almost should be called persistent sports because, you know, the people that I know that do these things, that run Ironmans or, you know, like go on crazy adventures because they like the persistence element. They're not like, I hate this, get me out of here. They, there's an, there's an art to welcoming the discomfort.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  And, and continuing anyway.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Well, this is, this is where I guess we can think about the reward being so much deeper than something like a short term fix of dopamine is ever gonna give you. Which is something far more deep and satisfying about your meaning and purpose and sense of who you are in the world.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  That's much bigger than any kind of immediate reward could give or not give.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  But yeah, again, just back to that problem, I guess, of kids not necessarily, um, gaining those skills, uh, if they are going to miss out, I really worry about that. In terms of, again, the rise of anxiety, loneliness, depression, or where, where is that sense of meaning gonna come from? It's not impossible, but I think it's harder without those things that we acquire through perseverance and, and practice.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  So is it important for, again, with, with kids to help them find the why in something? To, to give them that persistence?

• 35:29Speaker 02

  I think you've already touched on it. There's something really good about changing the story and, and, and helping them embrace this idea that society's not gonna help you with this. Right? Everything at the moment is geared towards making you feel good now. But that's actually in, in large part because people wanna sell you things. Not because they're interested in your mental health.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  So if you're interested in, in feeling really good as a person, sticking at this is not about the end product of becoming amazing at it. Like whoever you've seen on YouTube, it feels incredible to give it a try and keep trying and do that with other people.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  So that we're getting that human connection. We've got that sense of actually not being good at it is something to be proud of because I'm working at it.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Only one person is the goat.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  And the rest are just.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  Doing it. We're in the pack.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Taking that pressure off the table.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  And even LeBron James is arguably not the goat. Like there's this like ongoing debate. It's like, is LeBron James the goat or is Michael Jordan the goat? It's like, you're LeBron James and people aren't even giving it to you.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. There's a hint, there's a hint there that it's not, that's not the point.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  It's not achievable. Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  So the reason I suppose we're talking about like the beginner's mindset and the reason we do, you know, when we're a kid, it's all beginner's mindset because it's the first time we've done everything. And man, as we get older, we do shy away from, from that. But part of the beginner's mindset seems to be the avoidance of the discomfort.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  When is it okay, when is it a good avoidance? And when is it okay to push back into that avoidance, I suppose, with, with kids? You know what I mean? Like when is it? Cause there's obviously sometimes where avoidance is healthy. We have it for a reason.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  When do we push them back in to the, to the, to the discomfort? And when does, when is it good to pull out?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, such a good question. Uh, the, the sense that you're right. We do absolutely need our anxiety around discomfort because sometimes there is a genuine safety risk and, uh, it's, it's very problematic. And, and you could even argue if we, if we dial that back from kind of a, uh, life or death threat to just, um, a, a skill that we wanna acquire that ultimately maybe we're not suited to. You know, that's a reality too.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  So there is a point at which perhaps acceptance or avoidance is, is an okay thing. But I guess the problem becomes if we have to think about how we're training the brain at any given point. And kids we know have enormous capacity for learning, enormous capacity for neuroplasticity and adapt, adaptation. But if we're training to avoid discomfort as a kind of primary defense mechanism.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And it's broad sweeping and kind of across everything because we can't be that expert we wanna be straight away, that's gonna become a primary way of managing life. So if you think about the implications of that, if that becomes the kind of building blocks that we're stacking early, that's gonna be really problematic when it comes to the stepping out with confidence to try new things, like going for that job or meeting that person or connecting with that, uh, person that would create that opportunity that might lead to that next big thing. You know, you can, you can see how it quickly might, uh, create, you know, a real lack of opportunity to flourish.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Totally. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, that, that really resonates with me. Like I feel like so much of my, I had so, so little discomfort as a, as a kid and sort of consciously or unconsciously avoided it as a kid and just didn't like being uncomfortable. And so tried to stay very safe and, you know, make choices that would keep me safe, I guess, and not take risks. And then as an adult now, I'm almost having to learn how to, um, lean into the discomfort now, knowing that it would be, it'll be really, really good for me and it'll actually make me feel great.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  But it's just not inherently in me.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  To, to, to seek discomfort.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  And, and it's hard, isn't it? When the building blocks aren't quite there to, that. So we, we talked about this in our very first Imperfects chat together around the wonky bricks idea.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  So, uh, for those that haven't heard that episode, we talked about that there are these big fundamental ideas we learn about life early. Uh, in psychology, we call those schemas. And they, if you think of like a pyramid of building who you are, they're the big foundation stones. So if, if you are kind of internalizing a concept like trying things doesn't work out for me. Or that's too hard, that, uh, discomfort is not good and not, I don't want it. Or, you know, anything similar like that in terms of learning a new skill. And that becomes the basis of how you think about yourself, what you're capable of and what your future's gonna be. That's a very problematic foundation stone to have in your identity.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  And it speaks to how challenging this is. And, and so to, that's the problem. But in terms of how do we address that and, and, and what level of, you know, um, avoidance do we accept?

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  I think we can say to our kids that it's okay to have some. It is okay to, to not feel good and sometimes to say no to that.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  But we definitely can't do that for everything. And if we notice there's a pattern of kind of avoiding any kind of discomfort, well, that's what I'm gonna push back against. You gotta choose something. In fact, you gotta choose a few things and I'm gonna help you. And we're gonna break it down and we're gonna enjoy the process. You can't say no to everything, but you are allowed to choose. There is wiggle room here. And, and kids surprise you, don't they? Like in terms of what they come up with and what they choose. But we gotta give them room to do that.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  And not just accept that we just watch TV all the time or that we just, you know, go to the easiest thing all the time. We have to create room for, well, friction maxing. We gotta, we're gonna have a go at that, of sitting with discomfort.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  As, as we turn into adults, as we get older.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  And it becomes, I suppose it becomes more challenging because our parents, we don't have someone there guiding us through. Now, now it's like, now it becomes intrinsic. Like, do you choose it? Do you not choose it?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  And it becomes, it's on you now as a, as an adult.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  What happens to the brain as you get older?

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Um, in terms of what happens to us with discomfort and how effective it is to push ourselves back into it.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  So naturally, as we get older, of course, we start to solidify some of our beliefs about the world, our sense of who we are, our sense of what we're good at. It gets narrower. And, and we know that around 25, the brain's capacity for rapid learning starts to slow down a little bit and becomes a little more concrete.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Not completely. There is still neuroplasticity there and, you know, still capacity to learn as your show is teaching us. Uh, but, um, it is more limited and, and therefore we might find ourselves a bit more stuck in our ways and a bit more unwilling to try new things.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  So it's a wonderful thing to remember as adults to show our kids, modeling is so critically important that we're willing to do it as well and have a go at stepping into the unknown and things we're not that good at. Uh, because that's the, that's the best teacher.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  We're willing to be shit.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Right?

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a funny one that I, I feel like I've probably gone too far on this. And so my kids probably think I'm useless and cannot believe, but I'm always telling them about my mistakes. Like, I stopped this up and I, I got this wrong. I mean, cause I really want them to, to know mistakes are okay. I've definitely gone too far and I think I'm a fumbling idiot. But it's, um, but I think that's a really big part of it as well. It's like modeling that it's, it's definitely okay to make mistakes.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  And we have to retrain ourselves around that too, because that same cultural momentum we talked about for kids, we're all susceptible to it and we're all living in it. So, yeah, it's really normal to kind of not wanna do it.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  But if we remind ourselves, it's worth it.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  And, and it's healthier and there's something deeper and richer on offer if we do.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I was at the nets the other day with my son who decided he was gonna just bowl in in swingers just randomly. I would be able to do it now. And he wasn't able to shape the ball back in to the right hand up.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  Wouldn't have been a reverse swing.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  No, that's true. Uh, and he, he really, he just got really angry. And then that became very distressing for me because I wasn't angry, but I was just saying, I was going, how, why does he think that this is a skill he needs to have right now? It takes so long to do this. So how do you deal with anger when that comes up for a child when they can't perform a skill straight away?

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yep. So what an understandable feeling, uh, from both of you, because we so desperately want for our kids to try and to give things a go. And when we see them going straight to that sense of frustration, it's very natural and understandable that you will also feel a bit of that. So you're, you're speaking to the kind of fundamentals of emotional intelligence here. And the wonderful Dr. Billy Garvey talks about co-regulating with, with our kids.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Um, which is such an important thing to remember that we, we note what we're feeling, we pay attention to what they're feeling. And then it's time for the strategy. Do I deal with this now in the midst of this feeling and sit down with them? And we acknowledge what we're feeling together and create connection and understanding and validation around that. Or give them a few minutes or even a day, let the feeling settle and then come back to it again. But yeah, paying attention to what we're feeling and, and labeling that is, is really important. It's normal. It's healthy to have feelings. There's no problem with that at all. But it's when we're acting without awareness of what we're feeling and kind of launching in and that frustration kind of choosing our words for us or making our decisions for us that we know we can make it worse.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Um, and escalate the situation further.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I sometimes like when I'm with the kids, like most of the time getting frustrated is when I realize I've unconsciously had a script in my head of how this should go.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Instead of just letting it be what it is.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I sometimes think about my internal patience meter, you know, and, and it's like so much taps into, uh, you know, how much sleep I've had and what kind of day I've had and how many people have frustrated me today. And, you know, we're bringing that, you know, whether we realize it or not into the moment.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  And, and we've got this set of expectations, as you say, about how things should go or will go.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  And when they go on their own journey and, and say no.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Or put their foot down and you know, it would be good for them. It's like, if you just do this thing, it's gonna be good for you.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  That's the hardest part.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Right?

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  You're kind of blocking off the opportunity for the happy accident.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And, and you may not have much in the tank.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  So you just go to that place of frustration really quickly because you're exhausted. You want the best for them. They're not making the choice that you know would be better. But if we just sit with it and go, okay, trying new things is hard. Uh, we all know that, and we're asking them to step into discomfort. If they're triggered into a place of frustration, there's so many factors contributing to that. And my frustration, same deal. So just sit with it, notice it, label it and acknowledge it to yourself. And you can even say to them, I'm so sorry that I got frustrated there. Like, you don't have to go into your full day, but just to kind of give them a sense of, of what's going on for you. And I, I never meant for you to cop that. Um, but tell me about your frustration. What, what are you feeling and why? And what's going on for you?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Um, let's try again tomorrow. And that's, that's the, a really good thing to remember. Before we give up on something or allow them to say, I quit, I'm never doing it again.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Give it a day. Now just give it one day. Let the feeling settle. Talk about it. Try again. And maybe we can think about it a new way.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  I'm not sure who said it, but there's that thing where it's like, okay, you're allowed to quit, but you can't quit when you're angry.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. That's it. It's a good strategy to remember. And that's where we can introduce concepts like, um, you know, the, the small win or, you know, just, let's just try and get to here. We just need to get creative, but we can only do that when we're calm.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  It's better to have a plan and going in rather than try and react in the moment when we're emotional.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  That brings up scaffolding for me. So the, the idea that, so for the example, for our neurodivergent child, their aim was to go to camp this year and the buildup to it has been a huge ramp up in their anxiety and their, um, school refusal stuff. But we, um, had to stay near the camp. We had to pick them up at certain times, get them back there. Um, but they did it, but they did two days. They did all the activities, didn't stay overnight. Um, and that sort of scaffolding, like as in creating, giving them, um, we can sort of explain scaffolding better than I can, I guess.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  No, you're doing it now. Yeah, it's good.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Could you do it?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  I'll do it.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  I think I'd prefer Ryder to do it.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  So when a building.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  I would like James to do it.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  I thought you were on a really good run there.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  No, you, you do scaffolding.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  No, it's lovely. I was about to just agree with you. I mean, you, yeah, you're, you're setting up the kind of variables around the young person to make it feel safe.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and then, and then it was a big thing of celebrating the, the, what they did do.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And it was not like, cause I, I could tell their brain was going to, but I didn't stay overnight. And that's the, that was the big thing with camp, but it was.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's such a hard thing too, when, when, cause life's so often not just, you know, win, lose, binary. It's like, it's a jumble of things and you six, you know, you did seven things great and let's not worry about the other three things out of 10. You know, yeah, what, how do we deal with that with kids too? It's like, you wanna bring them back to celebrating the successes, even though sometimes when kids get anxious or, you know, they can focus on the negative of what they didn't achieve.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's there, isn't it? It's like, we're so attuned to pass fail as, as the metric by which we judge ourselves. But yeah, if we can start to remember that we, we've got to talk about that process and the, that, that, uh, skill acquisition is incremental and it's bit by bit. And, and they did. They achieved a number of things that were hard and stepped into discomfort. And that was the level they were able to get to this time. And that's amazing. And they will be able to build on that. So it is a win.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. But the, the thing that makes that really challenging, and I'm not saying this is your child story at all here, cause I can see how scaffolding is like so important, but you can't scaffold for every situation and being successful, famous, rich, whatever. That actually, you know, you said there's very, there's bad research around that as well, in terms of like happiness, connection with happiness. But it's so hard not to get seduced by that. Or as a kid, if you're like being told it's all about effort, just have fun, enjoy the process. But then Billy is really good at the same thing you're trying and he's getting all his popular and it's so hard in a practical sense to not be seduced by that.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a really good point. And we need to, yeah, put this in the context of what's realistic. Um, it comes to mind that you, you, I think you've heard of this before, the zone of proximal development, the Vygotsky.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  No, what's that?

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Concept. It's like, there's this window within which kids are open to learning, or actually anyone.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Uh, within which the, the challenge is just out ahead of our current skill set.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  I was gonna ask, is there, is there a magic percentage?

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Cause it just needs to be near, nearly there. Like, it's that thing of like, just close enough to stretch for it.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  That's, it's the stretch goal.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  But not out of reach.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  So it's, it's, it's something realistic within reach.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  That is just out ahead of our current skill level. It doesn't feel impossible to acquire. So if we break down big goals, like become a, an athlete.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Into, I'm just gonna run this far today. Well, that feels manageable.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  I'll give that a shot. That, within the zone of proximal development, that would be an achievable stretch goal that you're motivated towards. And if it doesn't go very well, you're like, well, I can try again. Maybe I'll bring the target back just a little bit.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm not trying to be an expert. I'm just trying to get to that step.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, the one thing I've learned from the show, and this reminded me of a few other things in life, is you have this end goal. Like, let's say, okay, we have to, there was like one episode, we have to weld a frame for a trailer. So like, okay, we don't, that's huge. And anytime you felt stuck, often the answer was, we're trying to get point A to point Z. You're like, okay, well, I don't understand how to get to Z. Bring it back to point A to point K. I don't really understand that. And eventually your brain would get to a point where it was just A to B. And you're trying to find that next achievable step.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  And the, the, the trick almost of trying to do this show on unskilled adult was like, just keep making the next step achievable and to try and forget about the outcome. And I think that's, when you think about like what we do with kids too, like sometimes we think we've given them an achievable next step.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  But we really maybe just have to find, we have to have it or have it again.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  It might be the case.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Until it's a little stretch. I had like, I'm not saying this is the sort, but with my daughter, with Rue, we all, we're a bike riding family and we're like, this is fun. We love bike riding. And when she was little, she'd go in the trailer and then we're like, all right, now, you know, it's time for you to join the, join the gang. And same thing. She was like, well, I don't like it.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  It's not because it was too much of a stretch.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  And also it was a bad way for us to frame it because we'd been like, hey, we can all do it.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  And this is happening and.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  This is happening. Yeah. And so of course you encounter, she's just like, well, I'm not immediately there. So this sucks. And she's been resisting a bit. Found as like a second hand, like a balance bike that was, that had a little e-bike engine in it. And so there's no pedaling involved. Cause I was like, I think the pedaling is the annoying part for her. And she was way too big for this stage. It was like, if this is like for five year olds, but you know, it was this tiny little thing, bought it like on sale and was like, like second hand. And she could sit on it and just zoom around on it. And it kind of gave her like woo-hoo's. Like it was the thrill of bike riding without the annoyance of pedaling. And now she's in an e-bike gang and actually she's got arrested in Cronulla

• 52:23Speaker 00

  last night. So bit of a shame, but gateway drug. But it was, it was that thing of like going, okay, we've got to rethink this a bit because we've got to, got to, we want her to experience.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Well, you've given her a small win and.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  And it was about trying to find that next step.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  It's great.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  And I think, you know, there've been lots of times where I haven't figured that out. But in terms of bike riding, in terms of speaking about bike riding, Hugh and I went to a great place, you know, Pods Ride down in Tasmania.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  So amazing place down in this town called Derby in Tasmania. Like it's a mountain bike town. And I've got a great mate down there, Stephen, he runs this cool thing called Pods. And that's their, that's their philosophy is they take people mountain biking, they've never done it before, on these amazing trails through this like old growth forest. And I think it was actually Steve that put this in my mind that was like, is like about 5% is if you're stretching about 5% past your comfort zone, that's the flow state. The whole thing is about entering a space of flow. And it's always stuck with me because I'm like, I don't know if there's science behind that, but it feels like about 5% outside your comfort zone is where you're not so terrified it's impossible.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  That was my run.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  5%.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  That was.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  But that's, I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing to strive for because it's sort of like 5% more effort than you're used to is about, seems to be about the maths.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that feels intuitively about right, doesn't it?

• 53:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  And it's tapping into another concept that is, is fundamental in psychology and that's in how we treat anxiety. And that's graduated exposure. Like we, we actually, the, the best way to treat anxiety in general is like little bit by little bit, expose ourselves to a manageable amount of distress and discomfort so that we can train and teach the brain, I'm safe and I'm okay. So it's, it's a similar concept here in terms of skill acquisition. We need to have a safe and manageable amount of discomfort that we can feel okay about it. It's like, this doesn't feel good, but I'm, I'm okay. I'm not unsafe. I'm not, my identity is not going to fall out from under me. And also I can see the skill I want to acquire just over there. It's not too far away. The, the goal here is, is not impossible.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  So does that, does that dispel the thing that you're often told to jump in the deep end?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  It does a bit. Yeah. I mean, ju- jumping in the deep end can have its merits sometimes. If you have the capacity and it's just overcoming the feeling.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  And that's going to work out well, but that also risks flooding and overwhelming.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  That's what would happen on our show a lot.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Cause the whole.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Flooding and overwhelming.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. The whole point is we're in at the deep end straight away. Yeah. And then, but it was interesting because, you know, I saw it eight times across eight different episodes. Everyone behaves similarly, but different depending on their appetite for discomfort.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  So, so if you're outside the zone of proximal development and you flooded and overwhelmed, unfortunately what can happen is it builds your narrative of intolerance of that thing. And in fact, it becomes scarier and, and you're still teaching everyone anyway. It's, it's still very important.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  I mean, there's, there's a few moments in the show that are really honest. Like there's one where we open up the job and Brett McKenzie, who's I love from Flight of the Conchords, like we open up the envelope like, okay, this is the job. We're reading through it. And then he just says like, you know, in a beautiful like kind of Brett way, he's like, this is too hard for us.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  It's like, they've got the wrong people. Like we can't do this. And it's like, that is what everyone's brain thinks as soon as they see it. And then the game becomes for the next few days. Like, all right, how do we bite this down into tiny.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Well, that's it. And that's where I think you are doing it because okay, yeah, while the initial thing sounds really hard and maybe in a sense it is because the timeframe is for television rather than.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  It's always doable. Like we always had jobs that were possible.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  But breaking it down into tasks is exactly what we want to do.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  With young people and for ourselves.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  I just want to go back a little bit. So at the start of the interview, and it's become quite a relevant point now, you said that the director of the Australian Boys Choir, who was said to you when you tried to quit, well, you can't and you'll be a quitter if you do that. And how did that feel for you in that moment?

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, this might be a bit of a therapy session now because I'm going back into a traumatic memory, but it felt horrible. Like honestly, it, it was such a shock actually to hear a, a person of authority and adult say that.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Did you believe him?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Oh, it felt terrible. I felt really judged, but also I remember having built myself up to that moment and that it took courage and assertiveness to speak up to an adult. And I, as you mentioned, Hami, you know, you felt guilty about the idea of quitting because it's like, I have to do this thing, don't I? I was like, I'm in this choir. I've been given this prestigious position.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  So, I mean, it's an interesting one because we are talking about not quitting.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  But there's obviously very, you know, it's the ball, it's the border of like healthy ways to not quit versus, you know, that's using shame as a tool.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  To, to stop someone doing something, which just immediately.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  His, his goal in that moment was to make me feel bad.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  He achieved his goal. And yeah, it did feel bad. And it probably for a while shook my confidence. I don't quite remember the outcome, but I imagine it did, you know, in terms of speaking up and being assertive with adults.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  I think the fact that you remember it.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Years later.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Says a lot.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Says a lot.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  It does. It does. So it's a good lesson, isn't it? That we have to constantly think about what is our intention about what we want a young person to learn in any given situation. And that it is okay to quit at times. And sometimes it's better to persist, but we have to think, where are they at in terms of their capacity and what they're telling me and how honest they're being. And maybe this is a time to validate and say, that's okay. You don't have to do that thing. That's fine. We'll try something else.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  Especially when dealing with kids. What does psychology say? I mean, you've got, um, you know, I'm sure it kind of comes down to motivation and, and how to motivate a child to, to not necessarily do something, but see something a different way. That's probably more from like the drill sergeant playbook, which is just like screaming them and tell them their shit. And like, that's how you motivate someone to, to mold them into something.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  Like what is, what do we know now in psychology that is actually effective for kids in that situation?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. The, the tough love approach, while it traditionally was very popular, uh, doesn't, there's not a lot of great evidence around that being motivational or, you know, helping kids change their mind. In fact, they're more likely to dig their heels in, push back if you bring that kind of energy. Uh, and it might also be disruptive to your relationship, you know, and require some repair. So while at times as a parent, it's almost inevitable, at times you'll put your foot down.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Um, I think of getting ready for school in the morning is a good example, uh, where that comes into play, but it's very rarely effective. So I think we can just think about it from that point of view, that tough love, while it may have its place sometimes, is rarely an evidence-based effective means of.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. When it dips into shame.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  I would say it's just never the play.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Correct. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. And that comes back to that self-awareness and emotional intelligence to recognize how we're feeling and what our intention is in this interaction. What do we want the young person to actually feel and learn?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Well, James, it's been so special to have you today. I, I, um, I think it was just a very serendipitous that Hamish, your incredible show. I've watched Ryan's episode last night. I've never laughed so much in my entire life. I've cannot wait to watch it multiple times again.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me on your show, Ryan. It's, that episode is just the Ry show.

• 59:31Speaker 03

  You can just watch me in complete meltdown and just trying to act cool.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  And before we let you go, your new TV show that you are now a part of.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  It's, well, it's not my TV show, but yes, I am on one, uh, which is very exciting and very strange. Yeah, this is incredibly surreal. Um, but yeah.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  What, what is it? Where is it?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  So I can't get into the specifics of it just yet. I haven't been given permission because.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Oh, it's I'm a celeb.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  I'm a psychologist. Get me out of here.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  No, it's The Apprentice. I've taken over from Donald Trump. No, uh, this is a beautiful show all about helping kids make friends. And it is the most delightful thing in the world. So this whole concept at the moment of perseverance and grit is, is very dear to my heart because that's really what this show is about. And, and helping little kids, give them strategies to help them make friends. It's going to be out early next year. Uh, it is on a major British broadcasting network, but I can't say which one, just yet.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  That is so, what a beautiful thing to do because yes, as we all know, for anyone that's got kids like, man, the difference of a, of a best friend.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  Or a good friend in a kid's life is, it's just something parents can't.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Can't replicate. And I say that sitting across from my oldest one.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Who changed my life in Ry and one of my other best ones to my left, that hasn't put in as many years, but he's doing all right at the moment. In, in Hugh, like the power of a great mate is, that's amazing.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Well, this, it was the most surreal experience because really I'm, I'm on the show as a psychologist, me and one other person. So I was really just doing my day job, but the difference is this time I would do my day job. And if it went well, a whole room of people cheered, which I've never had in my life.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  We get that all the time. How good is it? You've got to get into, you've got to get into comedy.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  It's very hard to go back to normal psychology.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, no audience.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Nobody cheers.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's, you're the perfect co-host for today, Hamish. So thank you for joining us.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Thank you. I love it. Thanks, James. I love listening to you.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  So great.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, James, I always, I mean, I feel very lucky. I can pick up the phone and call you whenever, but to, but to chat to you in this format is just wonderful. So.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  It would be, if you could leave us your phone number, then if anyone needs your help in the future, then they can.

• 1:01:30Speaker 00

  Yep. Check the show notes.

• 1:01:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  347.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  04.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, well, they, they can contact Engage One-on-One Psychology if they'd like to have a chat.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  Engage One-on-One Psychology.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Welcome to do that. And we have a wonderful team. Uh, what generally happens when I come and be a guest on this show is we get inundated with calls, which speaks more about you guys, I think, than it does about me.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  I don't think that's true.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  But, uh, so just, uh, you know, the, the director has asked me to say in advance, uh, we have a wonderful team and I'm not the only psychologist on the team. So if you'd like.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Guaranteed to get just.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  No, I just. But we'd love to hear from you.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Uh, the amount of people have swatted me straight to say, oh, James is now my psychologist and you've changed their lives. So it's very special what you do, James. And thank you for joining us today.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Ah, such a pleasure. Thanks for having me back.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Thank you, mate.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Hello, George.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Hello, Josh.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Great to see you.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  You just had to get into the episode, didn't you?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  I did. Yeah. I was chomping at the bit, champing at the bit to get up onto the table. And here I am.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  I'm here to talk about the newsletter. Uh, and for those of you who are signed up to the newsletter, every week you get a newsletter that's inspired by that week's episode. Um, and within that, there's a question that we put to people for them to reflect on their own imperfect lives. Uh, it becomes a bit like a journaling club for those who want to respond and send it in to us. But you're here to talk about it. And what is this week's question?

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. This week's question is what are you trying to be a beginner at?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Great question.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  I actually like that word, trying to be a beginner because it's, I'm not trying to be an expert. I'm just trying to start.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. It gives you permission to start to be a beginner.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Uh, it's also, I think, good to acknowledge that being a beginner can be really hard. Like I, I reckon I've struggled with it my whole life because I've just wanted to be like perfect at something from the start.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  So yeah, I, I mean, that probably says that there'll be a lot for people to reflect about, uh, in this week's email. What are you beginning at?

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Uh, I'm beginning at running. I'm beginning running.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  I'm a beginner at running.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  I did my first ever park run on the weekend.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  Unreal.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  The great thing about park runs, I reckon, is it's like built on beginner's mindset. Yeah. So at the start, they do a little welcome. They say, anyone here, brand new, anyone ever done a park run before? I put my hand up and I got a round of applause.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  Oh, how nice. That sounds perfect. I should do that.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  And I was like, oh wow, this is so welcoming.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  That'd be awesome if every time you began to do something, you got a round of applause.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  It was great. Yeah. Um, so I don't know if I'll get back next week actually.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not going to get there.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  So if anyone out there, uh, wants to reflect on something they're beginning at.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Um, they can sign up, uh, either by using the link in the show notes today, or you can go to theimperfects.com.au and sign up to my imperfect email, uh, and join the club.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Join the club.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  This show was made in the lands of the war undried, war on people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.