Luke Bateman - Gambling With My Life

Mid 20's and $250,000 in debt. Gripped by a gambling addiction. How do you recover? 💌 Join 9,500+ others in our newsletter community - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ From the outside, it looked like Luke Bateman was living the dream: a professional NRL career with ludicrous pay checks and sponsorship deals. On the inside, Luke was battling a crippling gambling addiction, deepening depression and a widening chasm between the character he was playing, and his true authentic self. With immense courage, honesty and vulnerability, Luke takes Hugh, Ryan and Josh through the ups and downs of his recovery journey. Luke unpicks the difference between unconditional love and conditional help from his parents, and why his time in rehab was the best thing that ever happened to him. Luke speaks about how his journey with addiction impacted his relationship with his mum, and the gratitude he feels for her now, and how learning about internal family systems changed his life forever. Luke, you are such a beautiful person. Thank you for joining us today. This episode discusses gambling addiction and suicidal ideation. Please take care when listening. This episode is part of the BE HOPE Podcast Takeover, bringing podcasts around the world together to explore the themes of hope and how we can continue to make progress in a rapidly changing world - https://globalgoals.org/behope/ 🚨If you, or someone you know is struggling with a gambling addiction Call LifeLine - 13 11 14 Register at BetStop - betstop.gov.au Gamblers Anonymous - https://bit.ly/3TJ1C6d Gambling Help Online - gamblinghelponline.org.au In an emergency, always call 000 🩵To hear our chat with Luke about The Manosphere and to join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 0:00 – Trailer: $250K of Gambling Debt 1:26 – Be Hope Podcast Takeover Announcement 4:15 – Luke Bateman doesn’t fit in a box 6:06 – Growing up ‘soft’ in Rural Queensland 10:03 – Hiding Books from the Boys 17:11 – The Shame of Reading 19:22 – Chasing a Dream to Fill the Void 22:26 – Money, Drugs & Alcohol in Professional Sport 27:40 – Lies, Debt & Betting Company ‘VIP’ Treatment 30:26 – Should Gambling Sponsorship Be Banned? 31:11 – Rock Bottom 33:18 – The Phone Call That Saved His Life 39:45 – Rehab, Recovery + Relinquishing Control 43:40 – Inside Rehab “Get a Real Addiction” 47:21 – Recovery Is Not Linear 50:21 – Internal Family Systems: Healing the exiled child 56:05 – Generational Masculinity: Why Men Struggle to Connect 58:19 – Denial + Corporate Greed 1:03:13 – Luke’s Honesty Policy 1:06:08 – Unconditional Love vs Conditional Help 1:10:18 – Sharing Shame with Teammates 1:11:37 – Luke’s Message to Anyone Struggling Right Now 1:13:03 – Finding Your Way Back 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Jack’s Gambling Addiction Story - https://bit.ly/4hFQmk1 📚Things to read The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane, by Kate DiCamillo - https://bit.ly/46FkS7v Keys to the Kingdom, by Garth Nix - https://bit.ly/4AnBxKB The Midnight Library, by Matt Haig - https://bit.ly/4d2Ozmx No Bad Parts, by Richard C Scharwtz - https://bit.ly/46FSGkU You Are The One You’ve Been Waiting For, by Richard C Schwartz - https://bit.ly/3Tp0gx8 🎧Things to listen to In The Good Books with Luke Bateman I Matt Haig: Writing What You Need to Hear - https://bit.ly/4jjvBvK 📱Things to check out Luke’s Instagram (and his thoughts on male silence) - https://bit.ly/46AnIuy 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode of The Imperfects features a discussion around suicide. If this is something you'd prefer not to engage with right now, then please do skip. But we encourage you to come back when you're ready.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  So I was on $400,000 a year for three years. So 1.2 million. And I finished my NRL career with absolutely zero. And I was in probably about $250,000 worth of debt.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Luke Bateman's whole life was built on becoming a rugby league player.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Validation came from my sporting achievements. So from a very young age, that became my identity. Because you go, this is where I get worth. This is where I feel like I matter.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  But even when his dream came true, it still wasn't enough.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  I want to get a really nice car. I want to live in a really nice place. I want this, I want this, I want this. What's next, what's next, what's next? I need to fill this hole within me. Something has to do it.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  That something was gambling.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  I gambled all my money away. And then I started borrowing money, obviously, from all the people around me. My parents, my siblings, my partner, my friends. I was the best liar in the entire world. Like I deceived and manipulated everybody.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  Eventually Luke felt like he had no one left to turn to.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  I'd lay down a bed and I'd cry. And that was sort of the point where I was like, oh, I've got two options here. Either change or I'm going out of my life.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  What do you say to anyone listening to this who is really in the grips of addiction?

• 1:26Speaker 00

  It's not often that I start the episodes.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  It's very special.

• 1:30Speaker 03

  This feels UN worthy.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  It's funny you should bring that up.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Really? The United Nations.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing you should bring that up. Because the reason why I'm starting the episode is I wanted to tell you guys and our listeners. I think this is a pretty, this feels like a big deal.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  They have asked us to be part of their Be Hope Podcast takeover.

• 1:49Speaker 03

  And by they, you mean the UN?

• 1:51Speaker 00

  I mean, Project Everyone, whose mission is to make sure that everyone knows what the UN's global goals are. And Hugh, this episode with Luke Bateman, if you had to describe Luke and the episode, what are some words you used?

• 2:04Speaker 02

  I would describe this episode, it is a, it's a story of, and Luke, a story of hope and resilience and lovely voice.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  The three tenants of the United Nations.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Well, that is perfect because the Be Hope takeover is, it's a thing that happens around the world. There are some massive podcasts involved. I'm feeling a bit awestruck that we've been asked to be a part of this, considering some of the other people, some podcasts I really love. So the Be Hope Podcast takeover is bringing podcasts from all around the world together to explore themes of hope and how we can continue to make progress in a rapidly changing world. And as you've just said, I think this episode with Luke is perfect. And it's a real, it's a real hoot to be asked.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  I mean, it is genuinely unbelievable.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I mean, have the UN just been seduced by his voice? I don't know. We'll find out soon.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  We'll find out soon. Have the UN followed us on Instagram is what I want to know.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Like really put your money where your mouth is, guys.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  And how about a collab post while you're at it?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  I cannot confirm whether they have and which meaning I don't think they have.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Okay, that's okay. No, we'll take this. This is more than enough.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Never have we had a guest come in and pretty immediately proclaim that they would never shit on a book.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  But really good information to know with today's guest. Really important to know, Luke.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Is there context needed or?

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think so.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  Luke was discussing books and not to put words in your mouth, Luke, but you're saying how you would, you said no book is bad.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, no bad books.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  No bad books.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Just books that aren't for me.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  That's right. And you said I would never shit on a book.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I would never shit on a book.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Good to know. And gosh, did Josh and Ryan enjoy that.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  We found it very funny.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  So we're joined by Luke Bateman today, which feels like, it's just such an exciting, I feel like when we do interviews, in my head, I've got like, I'm going to ask this question, I'll ask that question. Now we've met you, I just feel like my brain is really fizzing. I just have so many, I'm so excited. I have so many things I want to ask you. I don't know where to start anymore. I think it's fair to say that Luke Bateman does not believe in labels. Reader, rugby player, addict, farmer, son, writer, all identities that meld together to make Luke who he is today. At just 12 years old, Luke received a scholarship from the Canberra Raiders, which is incredible. And just three days after graduating high school, Luke left his whole life behind, moving to Canberra to pursue his dream of playing professional National Rugby League.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Contracts worth hundreds and thousands of dollars, playing in front of full stadiums. The fiance, the apartment, the sponsorship, the car. By his own metrics, Luke was living out his childhood dream. In 2020, a serious knee injury combined with mental health struggles led to his retirement from professional sport. In 2021, Luke entered rehab for a severe gambling addiction. After a hard fought, nonlinear journey of recovery, Luke turned his life into something that aligned with his authentic self. In 2025, Luke became a permanent fixture of book talk, a side of TikTok and Instagram that engages with books. As he posted a video of himself expressing how much reading means to him.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Since this post, Luke has amassed over a million followers across social platforms, released his own podcast and signed a two book deal with Atria Books Australia.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  So my first question for you is with all that, with, there's so much that makes up this incredible person that sits in front of us. I'd love to just ask you about how you would describe yourself as a boy? When you think back to yourself as a boy, maybe in primary school, if you only had two words to use to describe who you were?

• 5:57Speaker 03

  Give him three.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I would say soft and energetic.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Okay. Can you explain what you mean by soft?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  I grew up on a farm, but I was always really just soft. I hated harshness. I hated cruelty. I hated anything that was sort of, yeah, it just seemed like really hard to me. And that was difficult because I grew up in a very hard world, but.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  What was on the farm?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  We had goats on the farm when I was very young.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Right, okay.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  So when, yes, when I say soft, always, my parents used to ask when I was growing up, they used to say to me, they said, Luke, if you're gay, we have no issue with that whatsoever. You are so welcome. If you're gay, you're allowed to be that.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  From what age?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Oh, from when I was probably like six or seven.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, I'm not gay. I'm just kind. I'm just, just empathetic. Just, yeah, just have empathy for, for other things.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  But at that age, did you have a concept of what gay?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Not really, no, no, not really. And I mean, you know, a lot of that, and that's not, you know, that's not my parents' fault. They were being supportive. That was always, and you know, that instilled in me the message of like, oh, that's not allowed, like to be a man. You can't be soft and empathetic, you know? That was because otherwise you're, you're gay.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And, and growing up in the nineties in Western Queensland, in rural communities, it wasn't so much that that was like forbidden or anything. But that was very much still, you know, that was still a bit of a taboo thing or a thing you weren't allowed to be if you wanted to be a man. Yeah. So, so that's what I mean when I say soft.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when you say soft, that's a positive, like that's your.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I think there's like a, you hear a lot in sport, like he's too soft or that, that, too soft. So it's like a negative, but the way you're saying, I'm thinking about you as a boy, I'm thinking like gentle.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Compassionate, kind, sensitive.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Really great.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Very sensitive.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Very sensitive.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, very sensitive. Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  When you say really sensitive, what, what would, what are the kind of things that would get to you?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I was always really hyper aware of the emotional, I would say the emotional worlds of my family members. And especially, especially my parents, you know, whenever, I always remember growing up as a kid, I would always feel tension between my parents. Like it would feel like a weight on my shoulders and I would, and I would feel like, oh, I, I, I remember like, I hate this. I hate this. I don't want this. And then I would always try and alleviate things. So I was always really hyper aware of the emotional worlds of people around me. Not always, you know, not just my parents, it was everybody. Yeah, I was always very hyper aware.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  I'm guessing, so the reason your parents said it's okay if you're gay is that for their, for growing up in rural Queensland, that's what they, that they thought.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  If someone's gentle and kind and compassionate and loving and sensitive, that must mean they're gay?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Absolutely. And that's what I mean, and that's, I don't, my, my parents aren't responsible for that. Like my parents grew up in Western Queensland during the fifties and sixties. You know, so back then there was the, the hyper masculinity of that environment. They were just conditioned into that. And if you were a soft, gentle man, you were gay.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  You know, like the men were hard, men were tough, you know? Men were, it was blue collar men. And they did, they were farmers, truck drivers, mechanics, you know, rig workers. The men out there were hard men. So if you weren't hard, you know, that was you, you were either a woman or you were gay.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. I feel like we're going to do like a full circle today of like, what happened to your identity? What happened to the way you view yourself, the influence of a hyper masculine world that you found yourself living in? So we will come back to who you are now, but I'm really fascinated with, like books is a big part of it. Well, it is your life now, but did you love books as a boy?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Books for me were always a place where I felt belonging and they were where I felt acceptance. And they were where I saw the parts of myself, because there were so many parts of myself that weren't reflected in the world around me. Because it was such a, you know, hyper masculine world and, and men didn't read. You know, growing up, the only books that were acceptable for men to read were autobiographies of sports people.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Steve Ward Diaries.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  It was Steve Ward, Ricky Ponting, Matthew Hayden, Darren Lockyer.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  So they were the only books that were accepted. So I'm reading books about dragons and witches and wizards, you know, and I felt very shameful for that. But books were always a place where I felt real belonging. I had to go into the world and I had to be a character that would, you know, be accepted and fit into that world. And then books were the place where I just got to be me. And they were my safe harbour where I just got to, I got to take off all the armour that I had to wear in the world and go, oh, I belong. Private little world.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Did you feel like you had relationships as a child where you could be yourself?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, absolutely. But that was only with like with my immediate family. So that was, and that was where, cause I, obviously I read at home.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  And with my mum and my siblings, I could sort of be me.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  But then as soon as I sort of went out into the world, then I had to be somebody else.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Did you have brothers?

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've got a brother and a twin sister.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  When did you realise you were excellent at football?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I was always very athletic growing up, but probably when I figured out that I could, you know, really the, the dream of the NRL was a real possibility was around the age of, yeah, thirteen, fourteen.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Okay. Really? Are you being told by everyone around you, it's like, this is what you should do? Or did you feel like it's a thing you wanted to do?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Oh, it's such a difficult, that's such a difficult question because I always feel like it was a dream that I inherited. But also it was something that I really wanted to do.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  So it's, it's, it's difficult to say, did I want to do it because of me or did I want to do it because I was sort of told that that was what was, you know?

• 12:07Speaker 03

  The best thing.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  What was the best thing to do? Was it, was this, um, acceptable? But I was, you know, growing up, I loved, I love books and, and writing things like that. But the only thing that I ever saw, or the only thing that we watched was rugby league.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  All we did was play rugby league.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  So really the only, when I was a kid and I had dreams, the only dream that I actually saw as possible was being a rugby league player.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Like, so I didn't, I didn't go up around authors, I didn't go up around writers, I didn't grow up around anyone in sort of like, um, the creative arts sort of thing. So it was either you be a farmer or you be a NRL player.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and NRL players, they're like the kind of heroes.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Well, because we, we'd have, you know, we'd have NRL players come to the school when we were growing up and they literally, like you said, they were, they were the heroes.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  They were the people that we saw on the TV.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  And in Western Queensland, state of origin was, they were gods.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  But it also gave me a real, like, validation came from my sporting achievements.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Validation and worth came from being an athlete.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  So from a very young age, that became my identity.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Because you go, this is where I get worth, this is where I get validation, this is where I feel like I matter.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  So I really want to pursue that because when I achieve in that, that's where I receive, yeah, I've received a lot of praise from that.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  So I played a lot of cricket as a kid and I remember being able to play cricket and I, I relate to that feeling of like being a gentle and just a very sensitive and shy kid, that's how I'd describe myself, very similar to what you said about yourself. And playing cricket as a kid, you could, for me, you could be that, like kids cricket, you could still be that personality and that was, I didn't feel like I couldn't be myself.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  It wasn't until I entered my first, like men's, I was only fifteen years old and I played in a men's team. And I still remember being in shock the next twenty four hours of how, like, I just remembered, like, the, I couldn't believe the swearing, how fucking could fit the fore and after every single word. I couldn't believe that the aggression with which they spoke about everything.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  And everyone and like, I was so, it was so, it was such a ridiculous contrast to who I felt like I was.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, even just within, you know, the culture that I grew up in, I think that that was just the only narrative that you were given, men were, as you said, like men were hard and you were rewarded for being the biggest, toughest, meanest, most aggressive.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Strongest person. That was what you were rewarded for. And that's what received validation. So everything was just, I was always like, well, that's what a man is.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And that's what I need to be, you know, if you want to be accepted, or you want to be the best, you've got to be the, yeah, the biggest, toughest, meanest person and you've got to swear the most.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Did you ever get in a fight?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  I've been in two fights in my life and I've won them both by a hundred metres.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Excellent answer.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I'm, I've never, in my entire life, have I ever been in a fight.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, neither.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Never.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  It'll surprise you to hear.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  That shocks me.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah, no, never. I've never been a confrontational person.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  So when you turn up to Clubland and you're becoming a footballer, do you bring in your books in your, in your kit bag and read in the changing rooms before? What happens to your reading relationship?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, being a teenager, I could always do it at home. And even at, in high school, I would go to the school library after school. So I would wait, you know, the three P M bell would ring.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  In disguise.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Have a fake mustache on. But the, the bell would ring and, you know, everyone would leave. And then I would sort of like just hang around and then I'd duck into the library, get my book. And then ta, you know, like check the book out and then take it home when no, when no one would see me.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Hmm. Everyone else is behind the shelter shed smoking cigarettes.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, but then once I turned eighteen, I moved down to Canberra. And then I was very much more in a, in a full time.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Professional space. I was, once again, very secretive. I would only read at home in my own room. Cause I lived in a share house as well. So I live.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  And I'm guessing with boys.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, with other, with other footy boys. So I would read in my bedroom by myself.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Don't come in here.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  Put it between a Playboy.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  But no, I've got, I've got, I've got a great story that's actually like that because I, when then would, if we'd go away to, you know, camps or away trips, I would hide my book in the bottom of my bag and then I would read my book in toilets. So I would lock the toilet and once again, I'd be in, you know, I'd be in the toilet for half an hour and the boys would be like, what are you doing? Like, are you, are you in there? Like, what are you doing? Are you in there wanking? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like, that's what I'm doing.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Really?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would rather, I would rather been like, I would rather have been thought of as in there.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  But that's what I, like, I was like, I would rather have been thought of.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  In there playing with myself than reading a book.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, cause my, my room, I'd be like, geez, we spent a lot of time like in the bathroom. I'm like, yeah, I've just, in there wanking, yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, can't stop masturbating.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Do tell everyone.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the craziest thing, you know, like it's, it is really funny, but that is, that was more accepted than reading a book.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  So yeah, so my, my reading was always extremely secretive and so wrapped in shame.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Is it like, was it the fear of what the unknown or I wonder what would happen if like?

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  You're such a loveable person. I just wonder if you're like, guys, I fucking love reading, like.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  I'm sure, you know, like, looking back, I'm sure if I had the courage to like stand in my truth, I, I'm sure that it probably would have allowed other people to

• 18:00Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Accept that, uh, you know, cause I'm very big on vulnerability.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  So if I had have been vulnerable enough back then to do that, I'm sure that would have actually given other boys permission to, you know, open their own sort of.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Shame boxes up a bit, I, I guess, but I was so young.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  You know, I was so young, I was so scared. I just, I wanted, I wanted to belong.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I didn't want ridicule, I didn't want shame, I didn't want the other boys taking the piss out of me. Cause they would have, cause you know, I read, I read fantasy and I love romance novels as well.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  And if I had pulled a romance novel out in front of the boys.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. You would have been destroyed.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Destroyed.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. What kind of toll does that have on you and, and does it start to manifest in other ways?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that really led me to that place of unfulfillment.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Depression and addiction as well.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  While you were playing?

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Well, just before you get there, cause that's a big thing to talk about here. Cause I think it's an important one to cover, but I'm just wondering when, so are you, when you look back in your, your debut, so this is your fulfilling your childhood dream, are you happy? Do, do you have memories of being happy?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  It's so funny. I actually remember my debut game and I thought, you know, I'd worked my entire life to get to this point. And this was always the thing, I was like, once, you know, once I have this, once I'm in the NRL, once I'm an NRL player, once the dream, once I've got the dream, then I'll feel good about myself. Then I'll be happy. Then this will complete me. That, that feeling inside that something's missing, this will, this will complete that, you know, this will complete me. This will be the final piece of the puzzle putting plays. And I remember my debut game and I was sitting on the bus, we played in Sydney and we were on the bus back to Canberra after the game. And I remember sitting there and being like. Oh, nothing's changed. Like, there was no real joy, there was no real satisfaction. Like, I was just like, oh,

• 19:51Speaker 01

  that's, like, that's such an empty feeling.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  You know, obviously, I had the, I had the excitement of it all, but the fulfillment was, yeah, not bereft.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Geez, so, what a, what a, under, underselling it, but such a disappointing feeling, I imagine.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  I don't know, like, if you, like, if you build something up to be this huge thing,

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  and then you get there and it just, you, you feel nothing about it, it'd be like, oh shit, now what?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  No, that's, yeah, exactly. So then it was, all right, well, what's next?

• 20:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Now I wanna get my contract X-Men, now I wanna get a contract worth this much.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And, all right, I wanna buy my first property, I wanna get a really nice car, I wanna live in a really nice place, I want this, I want this, I want this. What's next, what's next, what's next? I need to fill this hole within me because the, all the stuff that I thought would fill it, isn't filling it. So something has to do it.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And then more and more and more and more and more. And then, and it just, the hole just kept getting wider and wider. And nothing would fill it. And that's when we, you know, really, really, the, the, uh, the train comes off the tracks.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Right, okay. Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects, and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it. What, why do we need? Sorry, no, we're, I'm just, uh, making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit, because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music. I think the music's a bit much. Is it?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music, the important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid. Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, oh, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better. Hmm. Oh, and not use emotional manipulation? Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  So what happens for the train's going off the track?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so two, I, so two thousand and sixteen was like my breakout year in the NRL, had, had an amazing year, signed a long-term contract on, on really big money. And, and as I said, you know, went out, bought the investment property, bought the nice car.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Is it, is it rude to ask what is really big money? Is that like a well-known thing?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  I was on four hundred thousand dollars a year.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Friggin' hell.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I was twenty, I was twenty-one.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  And then, you know, got into my third year of being in the NRL. And once I started ticking off all those other boxes, and my depression and my unfulfillment just kept getting worse and worse and worse. I think that's when I got to the point where I was like, okay, I have everything that I've ever wanted, I have everything everyone always told me symbolized success. I have everything everyone told me.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And I was twenty-three years old and I was like, whoa, and I'm living my dream. And I was like, well, if this doesn't make me happy, nothing, nothing will.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And, you know, in, in professional sporting cultures, you're surrounded by alcohol, drugs and gambling. They are just part and parcel of those cultures. So I started sort of doing that. My main addiction was gambling. It was the thing that was powerless to, it was the thing that I could not say no to, it was the thing that was just like destroying my life.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Had it ever been a part of your life before that?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gambled before that, but net, but, you know, always within, regional, within budget per se.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  And, but, you know, on a, with a four hundred thousand dollar income at twenty-one years old, you know, eighty percent of that was disposable, yeah. So the budget is very big. And, you know, especially with, when you combine the addiction with the mental health, the depression as well, then drugs and alcohol really came into that, uh, into that picture, because they were the things that brought me, they were the things that numbed me to it. They were the things that brought me silence, because I had so much noise in my head, I just needed silence.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  And do you mind me asking, like, what specifically, like, the drugs and the alcohol, is it just like?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Oh, alcohol was just, like, whatever beer, vodka, you know, just, yeah, just anything, really, just anything that would get me drunk.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  It was like party drugs and stuff, is that what?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  And just party drugs, yes, like cocaine, MDMA, ecstasy, speed, yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  And is that like a regular thing? Like, is that?

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Oh, that was, by the end, that was every, every weekend.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  So even when you're playing?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Really? And is that, I mean, is that, or was that a common thing with players, that they'd be taking drugs and stuff while playing?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Really?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  One hundred percent.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  But aren't you getting drug tested?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  If, if we knew that there was a drug test sort of coming up, we wouldn't do it.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  But most of the time, you were pretty sweet, you know, if you, once you played a game, if you played a Friday night game and you weren't back into training till Monday, you were good to go.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  So you'd have, like, a bender over the weekend?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then that coincides, at the start of two thousand and nineteen, I did my knee. And that was a season-ending injury, like, the start of the year, so gone for the season. And this was already when my gambling addiction was sort of destroying my life. And I ended up, so, once I, I gambled all my money away, and then I started borrowing money, obviously, from all the people around me, like, my, my parents, my siblings, my partner, my friends, your boys at the, at the footy club.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  Are you giving excuses as to why you need the money?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I was just lying through my teeth.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Just, I had this, I always had, I had this house of cards built up, and I was, I was the best, I was the best liar in the entire world. Like, I deceived and manipulated everybody. And could, and the thing was, because I was still on four hundred thousand dollars a year.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  In the beginning, we would get paid monthly. So I was getting these massive lump sums of cash land in my bank account every month. So in the beginning, I was like, okay, well, I just need to get through to payday. And then once a big lump sum lands in my bank, I can pay these people back.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  And that's how I did it for the first, you know, six or twelve months. So I was just leaving sort of paycheck to paycheck and just paying people back. But then it got to the point where I would get that big lump sum and my debt was bigger than that. So then I'd have to start making excuses of like, oh, I'll just have to wait till next month, mate, I've got this. And, you know, I was lying to everyone about why I needed money, because, you know, I was meant to be, I was out of everyone, you know, I was meant to be on the most money. I get all my siblings and partner and parents and like that.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  They say you was a rich guy.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm a rich guy. So, and that's one, and that was, so I was so wrapped up in shame about that as well, because like, well, I can't be broke, I'm meant to be the, the wealthy one.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  So what, so when, so if they think that, and if you're getting paid all that money, what's the, what could potentially be the reason? Like, what lies are you giving that you need the money?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  I would, so I would tell everyone that, I would tell, like, my mum that my partner had control of my money. And I needed, like, and she wouldn't give me any money, or that's, and I'd tell the boys, like, oh, my, my parents, like, my parents have control of my money, um, and they won't give me money, so I just need some money for the weekend, sort of thing.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Or I'd, I'd come up with, like, oh, I've just got this big bill, do you mind if you just lend me money for that bill? And I'll pay you back when, when I get paid, sort of thing, yeah. So it was always, it was always these extremely elaborate lies that I sort of had, and they started becoming laid upon each other, because you had to remember, I had to remember the lie that I told you last time, and just sort of snowballed to the point where I just started getting in so much debt that I couldn't pay people back. And then I was chasing that even further, because I was, the more debt I got into, the more gambling I was doing to try and, like, recover that, yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Can I ask, like, how are you gambling? What's your, like, how do you, I'm guessing phones, that's.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, phone, yeah. Ninety percent of my gambling was done from my bed. And I'd do that till three AM.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Do you mind me asking, like, numbers? Like, like, how much were you gambling? How much were you asking? How much were you borrowing from people and how much debt you were in?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, in the beginning, it was sort of, I'd ask for, like, two hundred bucks.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  And then it would slowly creep up to, you know, five hundred, a thousand. And the most I'd ever really asked for at the time was, like, two or three grand. And that was when I could come up with a big lie of, you know, oh, I've just had a tax bill, or I've had, you know, some, something big sort of come in. And so it was, it was never, you know, I was never borrowing, like, ten or twenty thousand dollars, but by the end, so I was on, as I said, I earned four hundred thousand dollars a year for three years, so one point two million before tax. And I finished my NRL career with absolutely zero dollars, and I was in probably about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of debt.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, gee, holy shit.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Because also, that was the other thing, because I started taking out credit cards as well. So, and the thing, and the thing with the credit cards was, because I was on four hundred thousand dollars a year, and I could prove to the credit card companies that I was earning so much money, I was just taking out credit cards with, like, twenty thousand dollar limit. And then just maxing them out.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  I've heard of online gambling companies looking after people like yourself who are, did you, were they like?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd account managers at every, at every corporate bookmaker. And they were texting through the, like your bonus bets and your incentives to gamble. And, you know, I was, I was losing tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  We had, we had, we did an episode with the guy.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  I've, I've listened to it.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  With Jack, yeah. And he was describing like the account managers he would have and almost getting like, getting invited to like, yeah, special events at like the footy and like being looked after.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  I'd be looked after. He had that like fly me somewhere, put me up in hotel, take me to the races, put you in a corporate box. Yeah. Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  And that's the betting company taking you there.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Oh, Jesus Christ.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Then you hear the opposite of that when people who win money get banned.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Criminal.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is criminal.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  I saw a photo the other day of, um, from the, I don't know, I think it was the seventies and it was like at a hospital and there were people smoking in the hospital. And it's like, can you believe that used to happen?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  I hope we look back in 20 years' time at, or people will say, do you know, like, at sport, at rugby league, we, they used to advertise gambling. They used to have ads around the ground for gambling and alcohol.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  And then you'd watch, someone would score a try and then would then it'd be an ad for gambling. Can you believe we used to do that to young people? Do you, is that a, do you think that's gonna happen one day or?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  I really hope so. I really hope so. I think you have to hope because if you don't have hope, you have nothing. But it really will take a very strong leader in terms of both like in parliament and in the NRL. Sports administrator, yeah. Sports space to say enough is enough. Cause they, you know, gambling and alcohol fund so much with sport and sports administrators are so drunk on the money that the sponsorship money that they give them. Until you have a leader who says enough is enough and the, the, the lives that this has got, like the actual human lives that this is destroying. There's no price that we can put on that. Until you have someone like that's got a backbone large enough to do that, I don't think there's really gonna be any change.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Well, then it may be a good time to ask you then, it's like when you were at sort of lowest point, what is that, what does that feel like? Like what's, what's the, the day to day experience like?

• 30:45Speaker 02

  And also your relationships at that point.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, all my relationships were pretty much destroyed by the end. You know, my, my, my partner had left, I had sort of like my best friends.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  And this is because, and did she know about the gambling?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  She worked it out and.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, so, so, yeah, so obviously it obviously, um, it got to the point where it all came out. Because I was in so much debt and I couldn't pay anyone back. And I actually like had to like people like, what's going on?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. What was it? A single moment or was it a?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was sort of, I, I remember ringing, I rang my mum and I just said like, mum, I've just, I've lost everything. I, like, I have to like tell, like, I have to come clean about it all.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  Was she surprised?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  She was surprised, yes, but she actually said, she said, oh, I always seen something like this coming.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Really new.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was just, yeah, I think, I think she just got a feeling, you know, I think she just sort of seen me, seen how I'd sort of been and just even like the way that I would talk or the way that I would sort of be when I was around them sort of thing. Like, I think she just sort of picked up on that.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  How did that feel? That's kind of statement.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Oh, at that time, that was not so bad. There was, my mother said many, many more things. It hit me much harder sort of post that. But, and I, I'll get to that, but so we're at the very worst of it. So this was in 2091, I did, I'd done my knee. I'm in the final year of my contract and no contract for next year. Now I'm not playing football. So now my career is sort of going, like going up in smoke. I'm in hundreds, like hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. And I'm depressed, like struggling to get out of bed. And for me, it was always wake up, put on that mask. It was like, wake up, put on the mask of Luke Bateman, go out and do whatever I had to do.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Come home, take that mask off and I'd just, I'd lay down in bed and I'd cry. I would, I'd cry for hours just laying in my bed at home and.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Were you with your partner at this time?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Nah, alone. Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  And had she, did you tell her or did she work it out or what, what happened there?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, so I was, I was in a lot of debt to her as well.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was in a lot of debt to her. So she knew, um, and she'd obviously, she'd left. So, yeah, so I was alone and, you know, obviously my relationship with my like best mates was really strained because I owed them a lot of money. Um, my relationship with all my family was really, really strained because they, because then they, they started trying to help me. And I say, you know, I caused my mum so much harm because mum was always, mum was really trying to help me. And then I'd say, you know, I'd, I'd promise her something and then a week later I'd, you know, go and gamble, I'd, you know, break, break the promise. And so it was really difficult. So all the relationships in my life were either destroyed or extremely strained.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  And it got to the point where there was one night with, you know, I tried to take my life one night and I rang my mum. And mum stayed on the phone with me till like three or four in the morning. And, and that was like, that was sort of like the thing that got me through. And then it did get to the point where I just, I knew, and that was sort of the point where I was like, oh, I've got two options here. Either change or I'm going down my life. That's the only two options that I've left.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Thanks for, that's, it's always so, uh, heavy and confronting and scary to hear that.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I actually think that that's my mum's story to tell. Like, I actually don't feel like that's my story because during that period, I was so detached from, like I was just living in a fog. I was in survival mode every single day. And my memory of that period is, is actually really quite fuzzy. Cause I was just in autopilot, just getting through each day. So it's actually, you know, it's funny because I really, I really do feel like that's my mum's story to tell, that one. Um, not, not, not so much mine.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  How old were you?

• 34:35Speaker 01

  I was 24.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  And how old are you now?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Thirty-one.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Do you have a memory of, was there anything your mum said in that phone call that, that helped you to make a choice to?

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, she did. Uh, so my, growing up, my pop was a real hero of mine. And I, so I was, I was standing on my balcony in Canberra. I lived, I lived in a, a high rise apartment and I was standing on my balcony. And I was, you know, over the edge of my balcony and I was on the phone with my mum. And mum said to me, mum said, just look up at the stars. And she said, Poppy's one of those stars. He said like pop, like Poppy, like we need you here. And Poppy's up there and he's one of those stars and he's looking down at you now and we need you here.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  And that was like, that was the, um, yeah, that was the like, that was the one thing that really helped me.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Is Poppy her dad?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, Poppy's mum's dad. Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was, I love my mum. I wouldn't, I literally, I wouldn't be here without my mum.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  How long were you on the phone to her for?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Oh, like five hours, I reckon, yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, like five hours. Cause I think I rang her, you know, I literally rang her like 11 o'clock at night and then she just refused to get off the phone. Uh, and we were, yeah, we were on the phone till three, four, three or four o'clock in the morning.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  I, I understand you saying you think that's your mum's story to tell. I think it's a really odd thing to say.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Isn't it, it's like, it's so true. I, you know, it's.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  I mean, it's yours, but I, I understand the sentiment one hundred percent.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 03

  Was she really scared?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Oh, terrified. Even in the sense of when she was on the phone to me, she felt connected to me, but she, you know, and once again, this is sort of a host of, but she, like, she would wake up every morning. And be like, is today the day that I like, am I, am I getting a phone call?

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  Hmm. I did, um, in knowing you were coming on, I did have a look at, to skim through your Instagram videos and, and the Midnight Library book jumped out at me. Cause I've, I love that book and we've talked about it a bit on the show.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  Um, but there's a bit in that book that, um, clearly is in this world. And the, the, I forget what the quote is again, something about possibility or?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, well, while you're alive, you still have possibility. I know the exact quote you're talking about. Yeah. Like once you, once you're in your life, all possibility is gone. But always still love, you still have possibilities.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  So how does that resonate with you?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, very deeply. It's funny, like Matty Hags, a friend of mine now, I've interviewed.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  Really?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, interviewed Matty on my podcast.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  He's the author of.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, the author, yeah. Incredible man. And it, you know, when I read that book, there was so much of a, where there was so much I resonated with. And I wish that I had have had that book back then, but yeah.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  I think I'd be right in assuming this, but would you say you're like, your mum's always been on your side?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  One hundred percent.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  My mum, my mum, like she carried me through, like she, like she picked me up. There are times when I just, I couldn't go any further. My mum picked me up and carried me so many times. And I feel, I feel such guilt. Like I carry so much guilt about what I put her through and just how much pain I, I caused her. And cause all she ever did was love me and, and support me. And, and, and ever heard I have to carry, it's like, but her'd have to carry what wasn't hers to carry, what was mine to carry. I always feel so much guilt around that.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Hmm. Um, my, my kids are only six and three, but I, um, yeah, I don't think there's anything that they could put me through that I would ever resent. Like I just, there's just no choice. Like, yeah. Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And beautiful. And, you know, and that's an unconditional love. And that's, and my mum is like the, the definition of unconditional love. But she even says that, like, I, like, I am so, I'm always so astounded at the strength of my mum. But mum always says to me, mum was like, she's like, I didn't feel strong. She's like, I just did what any parent would do. Um, so it's so interesting. Yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get it. Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  How do you go from that point to, I mean, you sit in front of us today, just the most remarkable young man that just has obviously been through so much to get to, to get to this point now.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  You know, that was two thousand nineteen, we're in twenty twenty six now, that's, that's seven years of work. And to be able to sort of put that down to one sentence or, or one practice is, is impossible. But so that was twenty nineteen and then so that was like the back end of twenty nineteen and then in the start of twenty twenty, I started getting help. So I started seeing a psychologist and I started making positive choices. Like I started, I gave like mum control of my bank account. So mum had control of all of my money. So I couldn't touch it. You know, I started making positive choices.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  So this is how you were getting over the addiction as well, I guess.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the, the most important thing for me at that stage was the addiction. Like the most important thing for me was removing the addiction from my life because it was number one. So I was very focused on fixing the addiction. So I went through twenty twenty and that was one step forward, one step back, two step forwards, one step back. Like it was, it was very sort of start stoppy. And then in twenty twenty one, I'd been going, I'd been going pretty good for a few months and then I had a massive relapse. And my mum had wanted me to go to rehab from in like two thousand nineteen. My mum had been wanting me to go to rehab for eighteen months. And so it took me to two thousand twenty one until I had the courage to say, I had a big relapse and I said, oh, I need to go to rehab.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Oh, you had a gambling relapse?

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, gambling relapse, yeah, yeah. So I had a, had a gambling relapse in two thousand twenty one. I went to rehab and I came up with a plan with my parents and they sat me down and they said, okay, so you're gonna go to rehab. But this is not, you're not just going to rehab and then sort of come straight back into the same stuff. You're done with footy altogether. You're done with the city because I was living in Brisbane at that point. You're done with the city. You're done with everything. You tell us every dollar that you owe. And I like owed a lot to my parents when they said you owed, tell us everything, like personal loans, credit cards, people you owe money to, drug dealers that you owe money to. You tell us every single cent that you owe and we're, we're gonna pay all of your debt off. Then you owe us everything.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  And when they said, when you get out of rehab, you're going back out to Western Queensland to where I grew up. And I said, you're going back out to work with my old man in the timber industry. Because again, you're working with him until you pay us back every cent. And that's like, that is the only option that you have. There's like you, that's, that's it. Like there's, there's no discussion here.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Do you remember how much it was you owed at that point?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  At that point, it was probably around that like hundred and fifty, hundred and fifty thousand, yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  How did that feel when they did that?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Oh, incredible. And I, you know, and I always says, I'm so lucky. Because there are so many people who are in that same position that I was in, who don't have parents that like love them or are able to do that for them. Like the, the privilege that I had in that position and the love that I had, it really upsets me to know that other people don't have that. Sort of that, the same build, the same love from their parents. So I was extremely lucky in that sense.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  But what's kind of interesting, what I, I take from that is that when there's someone in your life, whether it be a friend or a partner or something, and they're going through something really tough and, you know, some sort of addiction maybe. There'd be an element of like, well, I want to help, but I don't know, I don't want to be so presumptuous that, um, that I will like tell you exactly what to do or give you only one option. That's sort of something a parent can do to a child, but it's hard to do. But I imagine when your life is so out of control,

• 42:43Speaker 00

  it might be so relieving for someone to step in and take control.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very, very much so. But also, as I said, because I'd been so sort of stubborn up to that point. And I think that that was a point where I was like, oh, I'm so glad that I'm not stubborn anymore.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  I can just accept this.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  No more excuses.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, no more excuses. So I went to rehab and I spent, uh, four weeks, I went to a, like a detox clinic. So I was in there and I was in there with heavy substance abusers, meth, heroin. And they were coming in because of the detox facility. Like that's where they would come to actually like come down from their drugs. So they were coming in like day one, like it was extremely confronting. But I said, I was the laughing stock. I was literally, so I was in there with heroin, meth addicts. And I was the laughing stock.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Because, and this is the best thing that ever happened to me. I said this to her and I said, oh, what are you in here for? And she said, I'm in here for a meth addiction. She said, what are you in here for? I said, oh, I'm in here for a gaming addiction. And she looks down her nose at me and she goes, get a real fucking addiction.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Lightweight.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I was, I was a joke.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  All of a sudden, you're too soft to joke.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, and truly like it humbled me so deeply to be in there with people, the people who I once would have sort of held, I suppose disdain for and looked down upon. I was now, they wouldn't, they were my peers.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  They were looking down on you?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  They were looking down on me, yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do, as a, that sensitive kid that didn't like hard stuff,

• 44:22Speaker 00

  that must have been especially confronting.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Mate, it was the best, like it was the best experience I've ever had. One of, one of the best experiences I've ever had. Because a part of rehab was doing twelve step programs. I'm not sure whether you boys are, uh, familiar with twelve step programs, which is like Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. Those, the, the anonymous programs. So seven days a week, I was in a twelve step meeting every single night, like the entire, every single night you're in a twelve step meeting. And those rooms are some of the most powerful places I've ever been. Where people come in and tell the most raw and confronting stories with such, you know, conviction and, and and they're really gritty stories at times, but the power that's in those rooms is just incredible.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  What did you take from it?

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I think I really took that, that lesson around sort of vulnerability and actually confronting because for so long, because I'd lied, because I was such a liar for so long. Actually sitting down and like standing in your truth and saying like, this is me, like this is all of the most horrible, bad, ugliest parts of myself, here they are.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  How was that, saying that out loud?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Oh, it's extremely difficult. But then that's when, you know, those rooms, there's no judgment. And you lay all that bare and people hold that, you know, they, they, they hold such wonderful space for you in those rooms. So you lay all that out and there's no judgment, there's no shame, there's no ridicule, there's only understanding and acceptance.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  And that's what's so powerful about those places, you know, because you get that, you get that space to talk about the things that you've hidden so deeply amongst beneath shame. And you get to share that finally.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Wow. I remember understanding and learning a little bit about addiction, um, from my old psychologist. And she talked about how it's nonlinear.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  And that you, anyone who's had an addiction will, will relapse. I wonder what it's like when your parents have done so much for you uh, and are doing so much for you and they're doing everything they can and then you relapse. What is, what does that feel like? And then how do you recover from that?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  I went to rehab in two thousand twenty one and I only got completely clean at the beginning of two thousand twenty five. So it's only been around sixteen, seventeen months now that I've been like completely clean. Between two thousand twenty one, I sort of, the, the relapse would, they sort of grew further apart and, and lessened in their severity. But yeah, every time, every time I relapsed, I was, I was filled with such failure and such a sense of disappointment. But my parents were always, every single time my parents were like, back on the horse, mate. Back on the horse. But you do like, I really, really, because, because I had so much guilt. Uh, because that offered me so much help and was so supportive.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Every time I relapsed, it felt like it, it, it honestly was such a sense of failure and such a sense of I was letting them down so much.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  As well as yourself.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  As well as myself, yeah.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Did you tell them or did they find out?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  No, I would always tell them. Yeah. I was actually pretty like, I was, I was got pretty good at doing that once I sort of really, I really started because I drew a line in the sand. And I said, not only, you know, the first person I need to be honest with is me. But that honesty then, like that was a real sort of fundamental core of my recovery was just pure honesty.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  And it was like, oh, I need to be honest with you. So whenever I'd relapse, it was like, I, I have to tell my parents, yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  As that gambling side of you, the lying, the, that all that behavior and the gaming started to kind of die off over, um, like a struggling animal almost. What was growing?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  For me, it was not so much what was growing. It was more so what I was returning to. And I I'm such a big believer in, you know, whatever you wanna call it, personal development, self internal works, um self growth. It's not so much about adding things on, it's about taking things off. And I was slowly taking things away and really returning to that young, soft, empathetic, compassionate young boy, who I am at my core. So was, you know, we were slowly peeling back the layers and getting back to him. And he was the one, you know, and I know now, all that depression and even the addiction, like,

• 49:01Speaker 01

  he was crying out in pain that entire time because he was suffocating beneath everything that I was, all of the masks and all the armour that I'd put on top of him just to um to bury him. He was suffocating beneath and he was screaming for for air. So I was slowly taking those pieces off and then I had to sit down with him and and speak to him. And say like, hey, you know, I'm sorry that I wasn't here for you, but I'm here now. Uh and and we're gonna be okay.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Hmm. When when so when you say that, is that like a, how does that work? Like, how do you, who's who's facilitating you through that? Is anyone doing that for you?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's interesting, actually, when we talk about books. So I've discovered this through Richard Swartz's work, which is Internal Family Systems. I don't know whether you've always known I F S, but I F S was life changing for me. And I read that book, I read the book No Bad Parts, and I read his other work, which is You Are The One You've Been Waiting For and and his book Internal Family Systems. So I've read all of Richard Swartz's work.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  Do you mind just giving a quick explanation of what Internal Family Systems is?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, uh it's it's complex, but so with inside of our, with inside of us, we have systems and we have different parts. So we have all these, all these different parts with inside of ourselves, but we have manager parts and we have protector parts and we have exiled parts as well.

• 50:25Speaker 03

  What's an exile part?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  So an exile part is like, once again, like that that soft little compassionate boy.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  That was an exiled part of me.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And the parts of me that loved reading and love magic, they were sort of exiled parts. So there there are parts of us that we exile away.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  Did you say magic?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, magic.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  You love magic as well.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Love magic.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  I haven't touched on that. Okay.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  So I thought that was clear when I said dragons and witches and wizards.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought you meant like magician.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I mean, no, I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do love, like, a sleight sleight of hand. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  That's not what you're referencing.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  But yeah, so we have all these different parts and those parts ally with each other and those some parts fight against each other. And as I said, and then some parts protect other parts. So I had built, you know, when we talk about the gambling and the, you know, the addiction, there was a part of me that was really actually protecting that ten year old boy. And even though I was destroying my life, it was doing the best it could. It was doing all it knew how to do because from a very young age, that's how I protected myself. So whenever I felt shame, whenever I felt something, I knew, okay, that part stepped in and said, I'm not gonna allow you to feel shame. But so we started developing these parts from a very young age.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  So my defensive part or that that protective part of me, that's what it learnt to do. So from the age, and I remember, and I talk about this, I remember when I was in preschool, I was in preschool and I mean, I was playing soccer on the oval and an older boy like kicked me in the shin and pushed me and pushed me into the ground. And I was on the ground crying. I remember a girl in my class and she came over and she said like, oh, uh you won't cry for long. You're one of the boys, uh boys don't cry and you're one of the toughest boys here. So like, just get back up.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I remember that, like clear as day. I remember, I remember who the girl was as well. Not not like, no, not like, it wasn't her fault because that, you know.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  She's four as well.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's exactly, exactly right. You know, exactly right. You know, it wasn't her fault at all. But that's when that part of me, that that's when that protector was born and it said, oh, okay, we can't show emotion, we can't cry, we can't feel pain. Because if we do, we will get shamed for that.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  So I need to protect you from feeling that shame.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  And I'll do that by being tough and being strong and not allowing you to feel these emotions. That's how I'll protect you.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  So interesting.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so so internal for getting back to you. So they, so when we talk about all these different parts, you have like your manager part that manages, you know, your stress and things like that. So when you're stressed, you might, you might notice when you've got a lot of stress, you always act a certain way and that's a manager part stepping up.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  So it's a bit inside out.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, very inside out. Yeah, very inside out. So we have all these different parts.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Animation between about there.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

• 53:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  So I read, so I, and I read the Richard Swartz's three books and that I that just like, that was game changing for me. That just opened this door of understanding where I was just like, oh my God, like this is like a key that unlocks my entire life. And so I started doing practices from those books by myself because I was out in Western Queensland. So I was, you know, I'm eight hundred kilometres away from the nearest psych. But then I started seeing a part, because they're called parts therapists. So I started seeing a parts therapist myself and doing the work with her. And that just was life changing for me.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  A lot of tears. I'm imagining a lot of tears in the sessions.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  I think I've, I I've cried pretty much every session. Yeah. I I don't think, there's been very few sessions where I've left without crying, yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  What happens in those sessions?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  You see, so you sit down and you know, you you you speak to your parts. And I've mapped out, like I I write down my parts. There's, you know, there's an uh an overworking part of me, there's a defensive part of me, there's the ten year old part of me, there's the addict part of me, you know, and and that was a big thing. And that was a massive part of that work as well because once I started getting into recovery and once my life started getting better, I really started to resent and hate the sort of the addict part of me. And so right now, I shouldn't even call the addict part because me and my therapist talk about this. She actually said, she said, calling it the addict part, she said, that seems really harsh. You know, she said, like, is that the name that it actually has? Because that's a really harsh thing to call a part of yourself.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  And she said, you have to remember, like, that addict part, once again, that was just doing the best that it could at the time. And all he wanted was like love and support. And even though, yes, the decisions that he made led to really severe consequences, but he was doing the best that he could. And so the way that you even speak to your parts is really important. But yeah, so you sit down in those sessions and you speak to your parts and you learn, you know, you learn which parts are alloying together and which parts are being sort of rejected from the group and things like that. It's it's life changing work.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  We haven't mentioned your dad much in in this, like, it sounds like he's been very present through all this. We've heard how incredible your mum is. I mean, just to know you're you're like the father figure in your life.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry. I love my dad, great dad, but so I I have a step, step father. No, no, no, no. I have a step father. Uh so but my biological dad and my step dad have always been big part of my. But my step dad is is much more so my dad, he's, I don't remember a time in my life uh without my step dad being with my mum. So he got with my mum when I was like two.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Uh so, yeah, my step dad is is my father in terms of raising me. And my step dad is a beautiful, strong man. But he's also a man who's a product of his own environment. And he grew up in, I said, like the fifty, sixties and seventies. He left school when he was nine to go working on cattle stations. And so he was really brought up in that the exact same sort of world that I, or a more severe version of the world that I was brought up in. So he he's so deeply loving and supportive, but in his own way, you know, and how he shows up. And that's the thing, how he shows up is his version. And whether that, like, how that is, it's not for me to say that's right or wrong sort of thing.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  And I love him and he loves me and he's been very supportive. He probably doesn't quite understand it. And there are times where I felt a real disconnect with him because he would, you know, he would tell me like, what, what, just stop, you know, when you, when you think you're gonna gamble, just don't do it. You know, like, and that's his, because that's how he works, you know, that's his life. If he, if he doesn't wanna do something, you just don't do it.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  Just don't do it.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So no, he's he's been very present.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  That's a really interesting discussion point because I remember being at forty months with a really good friend and I was saying how I think a gambling ad had just come on and it was a very good ad. It was so funny and I said, it's so annoying. I have so much money to be able to pay to have such incredible ads.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  And my friend said, someone really close has said, if someone wants to, he said, if someone wants to ruin their life by throwing their money away, I don't like, that's not my problem. Like, I won't be watching these good ads. It doesn't matter. Like, it was like, you should just be able to stop.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  What do you say? Because you must have heard that a lot. How do you describe, how do you explain to someone that that's a really um fucking stupid thing to say?

• 57:41Speaker 03

  No offence to you, Stan.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, sorry. Yes, no, of course.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  No, no, no, not at all. And as I said, I love my step dad and he was so supportive. But and this also comes back to the way that we conditioned boys into men, you know. He doesn't actually have the language or the emotional quotient to be able to be present for that. Because for him, that's just like, it's a bridge too far and that's not his fault.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  It's too painful to step into that.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he doesn't like, he can't really step into that space because he doesn't know what to do when he's there. You know, he's lost in that space because he never ever, he never got given those tools either.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  He never got given the ability to do that or the capacity to do that. So he loved and supports in his own way. And that's why I'm, I love him and and well, culture and society failed him and fails all men. Uh you know, that's not his to own. Uh and and that's where it leads me into that. The next question is like the same thing. We have these, we have that very, like, that a very mindset where it's like, well, every single person should just not be able to do it. Or if they wanna ruin their life, then that's up to them. Like, that's, you know, why should I, why should I be affected by what someone else ruining their life?

• 58:53Speaker 01

  And there's a great quote that I always think of. Then these two, there's these two young fish and they're swimming along. And there's an older fish coming the other way and they say, you know, good morning. And then the older fish says to them like, morning, boys, how's the water? And then these two young fish keep swimming along and a bit later on, one of them turns to the other one and goes, what the fuck is water?

• 59:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  So we, you know, we don't even understand when we're so conditioned in these systems, in these cultures, we literally cannot even see them. We cannot even know that we're existing within them. And I think that that brings me back to your point, you, people don't understand that, yes, they may, like, it may not cause them any harm, but it is so harmful to so many people. And addiction really, you have, you're so powerless. You're so powerless and people always try, it's so hard to explain addiction because it sounds psychotic. And even when I try to explain, you have zero willpower. You cannot say no to it. There is, you are powerless to what you're addicted to.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  And then when these companies, when companies influence you and push you, push vulnerable people. Cause yeah, that's great for that bloke. He's not vulnerable, but there are many, many vulnerable people in our world. Extremely vulnerable people. And when these companies and this advertising and when these people with lots of money prey on that vulnerability, you know, to, for someone to say like, oh, you know, they should just have a stronger willpower. It's so, I think it's really arrogant. Like it's really arrogant.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  I mean, it's like, you, you could, you could sort of say like, okay, well, if we all put it to a vote and said like, should we provide the heroin industry with billions of dollars to advertise heroin? How do we feel about that?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  Leave it up to the person to decide.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Leave it up to the person to decide.

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  It's like, imagine if there were brilliant ads for that. It's like people would be up in arms.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, big heroin, do good ads. Yeah. Just that, that preying on that vulnerability and exploiting people's vulnerabilities. I think it's such an exploitative industry. And to, yeah, I think, you know, it's really,

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  we really have a responsibility to our fellow human to take care of them and to protect them. And I think when, when we sort of disregard that responsibility and we say, well, you know, I'm just looking after me. Other people have looked after themselves. I think we really, yeah, I, I think it's a real disregard of responsibility that we have to each other.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  I had a, had a long chat with, um, I won't say her, but it's like, he was a CEO of one of the biggest sports in Australia. And I was asking this question around like, how much longer do you keep like alcohol, fast food and, and gambling, like how long? And his response was, my job is to make this sport the biggest sport in Australia.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  And this helps me to build it from a grassroots level. And his argument was like, the more people play this sport, the better it is for society and the more people are active and health. And, um, so for me, it actually, and I, and I just, I, I agree. It's just going to take a very strong administrator. And a really great person to go, nah.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  This is not, yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Ridiculous.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  It's just going to take one of the big major sporting bodies to, to do that. But gosh, it's, um, it's heartbreaking. It's just heartbreaking. Every time that, you know, I'm watching the footy with my nine, six and three year old and.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  The odds are up.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  The odds are up. It is, our rate is disgusting.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  In the pregame show, like they literally, like a part of the pregame show is he's referencing, referencing the odds. And then also saying like, they'll do suggested bets.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  You know, you have the presenters saying like, I'd put on this three leg multi of yours, sort of thing. Yeah. Crazy.

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  With an addiction, particularly like a gambling addiction, you know, people talk about the getting off of the, the gambling, like stopping the gambling. But like you described before, a big part of being a gambling addict is becoming a really good liar. And I just wonder what your, now that you're clean from the gambling, I hope it's okay to ask and I ask this really like empathetically. What's your relationship with lying now?

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  I would say it was never my sort of relationship with lying. It was my relationship with honesty. And so my relationship with honesty is a core value of mine now. And that was a big part of my recovery process was actually sitting down and defining what my values are. What I live for, where I draw the line. And honesty is one of my core values because I had to do that for myself. So now, and even, you know, and like things like, and, and this is so small. But I used to, when I'd go to the like Woolies, I'd never pay for, if I got like a 25 cent bag, I'd never pay for the, I wouldn't pay for the bag. And it's just, and, and when I was going.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  Piece of work.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  But it's truly, and I mean this, I pay for every 25 cent bag that I get. Because for me, that's honesty. That's a value of mine. And that's where I draw the line. I go, if I'm, if I'm going to steal a 25 cent bag, where does that finish?

• 1:04:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Where do I draw the line then?

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  So yeah, so my relationship with honesty is very rigid and, and I very much honor that. Because I, I know, I know one, like the honesty to myself and then the honesty to the people surrounding me. And the honesty in, in like rooms like this, telling my story.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Because that is just so important to me.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  Hmm. And is that, so is that, is honesty and stuff a part of the 12 step program? Does that, is that?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, one of the, one of the, so step six, I do believe step six is doing a moral inventory, which is where you sit down, you write out, like you write every lie you've told, every person you harmed, every bad thing you've done.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  What a confronting activity.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Extremely confronting. A very difficult, like very difficult and can tend like took, you know, took me a couple of weeks to sort of do it because it gets really, it's a really heavy process. And then the next step is making amends. So that's where you, you know, you apologize to the people you've hurt. Uh, you try to, you offer repair or whatever to anyone within your life. Uh, and you pay like your money back and whether, you know, you probably can't do that straight away, but you know, you reach out to someone and say like, I'm sorry. You know, I, I recognize this. I take ownership of this. I take accountability of this. I'm, I'm, I'm very, very sorry about that. And, you know, I owe you X amount of dollars. So that is going to be paid back as well.

• 1:05:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Uh, so that was, so the honesty is absolutely such a underpinning of that 12 step process.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Amazing. Awesome. Um, about, um, oh God, I don't know how many years ago it was now, but quite a few, I went and saw Nick Cave, doing a show where he answered any questions from the crowd that people would have. Uh, so he'd play a song and then there were people with roving marks. It was a really phenomenal experience. And a really desperate father, um, asked a question because I think Nick Cave has a lot of experience of being around people with addictions.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  And the father asked, what could I, what can I do for, for my child? And I was really shocked by Nick Cave's answer. Well, my interpretation of his answer in that there's nothing you can do, that it's up to them to do it. And there's no, and I was wondering how that response and that, that sits with you.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I, I mean, I completely disagree with that.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I understand the sentiment behind it because at the end of the day, when I was going through recovery, that was 100% on me. You know, my parents can support me. They can offer their love and they can help me to, to do all that stuff. But I'm the one that has to do the hard work. I was the one who had to, you know, really struggle and, and grit my teeth and get through it and do the work necessary. So I do understand the sentiment.

• 1:06:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  But when we talk about what parents can do, I say, you know, loving your child unconditionally, like that's number one, you know? And also knowing that the addict, when they're, when you're in active addiction, you are not yourself. So whatever they're doing, like that's not your, that is not your child. That is the addiction that's speaking or the addiction that's, that's acting. So being able to hold that truth as well, loving your child unconditionally, but offering them help in the terms of saying, this is how I'm going to help you. But only if you do this, like there is a, there are boundaries to that. There is expectation to come with that.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  I will help you, but these are the terms and conditions for that help. And if you don't meet those terms and conditions, there is no help. You're on your own. Because it has to be, you know, and, and I mean, my mom made this mistake so many times where mom's help was actually counterproductive. Cause everything she was doing to help me was really just enabling me.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  Likewise.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Like mom was sort of like paying, like mom was paying my mortgage. And I truly believe my mom should have let me lose my house. Like there, there needs to be, you need to have consequences for your action. Cause a lot of what my mom did to help actually just shielded me from the consequences of my actions. So there, you have to like, you have to love that person unconditionally. And you have to say, my love and support is, and my help is right here. But it's, comes with these terms and conditions.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  But it's conditional upon this.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, like, yeah, it is like true. Like it has to be, like you have to say.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  Or your love is.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Your love is unconditional. Sorry, but help is conditional. Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  And these are, you know, the terms, and I would even say, especially for gambling, I'll speak on gaming specifically. My mom should have said, I will help you, but you have no access to any of your money. I'll help you, but every single person in your life has to know about your addiction. Because I still wanted it to be such a secret. I didn't want people to know about it. I'll help you, but you have to tell every single person. You have to tell the football club. You have to tell all of your football friends. You have to tell your partner, your siblings, your friends. You have to tell everyone what you're going through. Then I'll help you, you know, I'll, I'll control your money. Your pay, like your pay will come to me, to my bank account where you can't touch it. Everyone has to know about this. And even as far as, you know, saying like, oh, but you go to rehab. That's, and, and you have to be very clear about what the conditions are of your help. Because otherwise from a parent's point of view, you will, and this, my mom went through this.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  My mom sacrificed herself for me. My mom was killing herself for me. And that is not actually help. That's self abandonment.

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  Do you mind, I imagine telling the football club and your teammates would have been really, really hard.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  I never did.

• 1:09:48Speaker 03

  Oh, you never did?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Never did. They would know now.

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  They would know now, yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  At the, at the, so at the very end it did, because my mum, my mum kept ringing the club and saying like Luke needs help, Luke's, like Luke is going to end his life. And the club would sort of come to me and go, how you going mate? I go, yep, all good. And they go, job done.

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  Because I can only imagine that you weren't the only one struggling with a form of addiction.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Gambling addiction especially was something I saw in probably half of the football team.

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  Half?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  Have you, since it's all come out that that was your addiction, have you found yourself being a support for like players or ex-players or?

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  I've had probably three players from the NRL reach out to me. None of, none of my ex-teammates. And I've also had an ex-teammate I found out who sort of had lost everything. And I reached out to him and received no word back.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Right. And do you think that's just because of the shame around it all?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's shame. That's the shame that's all wrapped up in.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  What do you say to anyone listening to this who is really in the, in the grips of this, it could be this addiction, could be another addiction. What's your message to them now as they sit here listening to this?

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  It's so difficult because everyone's journey in addiction is going to be different. But all I say, the first thing, like the very first thing, right, right now, if you're listening to this in the grips of it again, right now, this very second, pick up your phone. The person who loves you the most, be that a parent, a sibling, a partner, a mentor, someone who cares for you, text them right now and tell them exactly what you're going through. That is the very first step. That has to happen right now.

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  That's got chills. Wow.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  That has, yeah, that has to happen this second. Someone who loves and cares for you needs to know exactly what you're going through. That is step one. After that, obviously there are steps where seeking support and help, because yes, you have to do the work yourself, but you don't have to do it alone. Like you do not have to do it alone. And I would even say, don't do it alone. It's near impossible to do alone. So you need, you need help. And the person that you text right now, they will be able to support you in getting that help. But the very first step is once again, it's honesty. That, that first step of honesty.

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  Hmm. Incredible advice.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so much, I feel like we've touched on so many really, really important topics today. I, I hope that the people who, I hope this reaches the people who really need it. And I think that's such a wide range of people. I think it's anyone struggling with addiction. To see who you are today will be hopefully hugely inspiring and also incredibly helpful.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  I hope a lot of boys listen to this. I really do.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  Because I, having worked extensively with the National Rugby League, in sport, in AFL and NRL and A-League, and I, just while you're talking, I was imagining, I was just picturing you in that talk that I did, just thinking, gosh, I mean, so many, there were so many young men. I've spoken to every under, is it under 18s and under 20s?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I spoke to every under 18s, under 20s, every senior side in the NRL, so many young men. And I just think about that as a snapshot of society and, and what was happening internally for all those young men. Think about where they're at now.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  This is a, an incredible story of being prepared to go to all places in order to find out, to, to, to, to go back to who you really are. And that's kind of what you've done. Like you, you sit here as, the way you described yourself as a boy, that's like, I see that now, like I absolutely saw it the whole time, but you can really see that. And that's for all of us, like for all of us, men and women. I got asked to write a, a passage in a book the other day, and I won't say who for you because I don't know if it's public yet, but it was about what it is to be a man.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  I wrote a passage in the same book.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I hope my chapter's not after yours.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  And, and the lady who's writing it, her son was in the car and he's 16. I asked him and I said, what do you think it is? And he said, I said, what is it to be a good man? He said, well, I think it's the same thing as to be a good woman.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  That's a good person.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Like it's no, it's no different. And I thought, that's so, it's so very true. But I think you've given us an incredible example today of what, what life, you know, life serves up things that we just don't see coming and we get challenged in so many ways, but to confront it head on and to, and to work really hard to get back to who you really are. It's, it's a beautiful story and I'd feel so lucky to be sitting here with you, like literally 10 years after I first met you, to hear the journey you've been on and the difference you're making in the world. It must feel quite surreal, but I hope you feel very proud of yourself.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. That was very kind. Yeah. I'm very proud of the, the journey I've been on and, and the person that I've been able to return to being.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Thank you, Luke.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Cheers, Lewis. Thank you.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  Thanks, Luke.

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  Keep listening to find out what else is going on at The Imperfects. If you enjoyed that conversation with Luke Bateman but would like a little more, well, we did record a little more.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  We don't teach boys how to be men. We teach boys how not to be women. The more you shove down the throats of boys masculinity in whatever form, it always puts femininity as less than or second to masculinity.

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  It was a really interesting discussion about the manosphere. I love some of the things Luke has to say about it. And you can hear all of that at patreon.com/theimperfects. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 131114.