Briggs - What Racism Feels Like (feat. Nazeem Hussain)

What is racism, really? 💌Join 9,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ Adam Briggs, rapper, writer, actor, senator and Yorta-Yorta man, joins Hugh, Josh and guest host Nazeem Hussain, to have an honest conversation about racism in Australia. We explore the impact of The Voice Referendum vote, how culture and community impacts identity, and why Briggs has never, ever felt the need to people please (yep, that’s the sound of us frantically scribbling down notes). Briggs also chats about the highs and lows of bipolar II. 0:00 – No boundaries Briggs 5:26 –Big Shep’ Washing Machine 12:25 – This is racism 21:27 – A hyper-vigilante 28:06 – Perfect storm for art 36:09 – Copping it Australia Wide 43:22 – The Yes Vote 53:08 – Australian Culture 57:02 – Never just about music 1:04:50 – Make Aboriginal Cool 1:09:19 – Bipolar, therapy, training 🫖 Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Ben Shewry (Pt 1) - The Other Side of Excellence - https://bit.ly/4fErGpQ Ben Shewry (Pt 2) - How The Chef Was Made - https://bit.ly/45sPsR7 Ben Shewry - Making It Right (And Delicious) - https://bit.ly/4gXyDEZ Nazeem Hussain - Losing a Parent - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-imperfects/id1476501557?i=1000589981824 🎧Things to listen to Big Noter - https://www.thebignoter.com The Children Came Back by Briggs & Gurrumul - https://bit.ly/4fGaxMH 📺Things to watch Briggs’s Voice Referendum ad - https://bit.ly/4bkiTs2 📚Things to read Our Home, Our Heartbeat by Adam Briggs - https://bit.ly/4yQKbjW 💻Things to check out Rumbalara Football Netball Club - https://www.rfnc.com.au/ Bad Apples Music - https://bit.ly/4x8Rdi3 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - https://www.patreon.com/c/TheImperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcast http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A lot of people don't understand what racism really is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Rapper, actor, writer. This is Briggs.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  The actual racism is exclusion. We're excluded from health, education, financial literacy. We're excluded from society.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Also joining us for this important episode is guest host Nazeem Hussain.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  I grew up thinking, oh yes, a lot of racism. By the time I'm an adult and I've got kids, you know, it'll all be done. Like they'll have finished with that.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Briggs shares his own mental health struggles.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  I'm bipolar two, bipolar two, that's the better one. That's how you get the albums.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  Those periods, those writing windows.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  And I do my best not to put my foot in it.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  I think it's really hard for a white guy like me to.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Sorry, man.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  That was the end of your sentence. I love that.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  Before we introduce our guest today, which I just kind of, I can't believe it's happened. I'm very excited. I do need to just mention that there's no Ryan Shelton today.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  No. Yes. Damn straight.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Get him.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Because I've been waiting for this moment for years.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. So we're joined by Nazeem Hussain.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Hello. It's good to be here.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Who's the co-host today?

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Big fan of Ryan Shelton, funny guy. What can I say? But you know, his time has come and gone. And it's time for fresh blood. And this is a permanent thing, right?

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Cool, cool.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Our guest today is, I'd call you Mr. Adam Briggs.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  That doesn't feel right.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  No. That Briggs.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Senator.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  Senator. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, that works. Whatever works. I'm easy.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  I don't call you Adam. I call you Briggs.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Or bro. Yeah.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Mate.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Mate, what's going on?

• 1:58Speaker 00

  Man.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  You. What do you want? Who's this?

• 2:03Speaker 03

  How do you guys know each other? Because I have to say, this is the, I think the reason we're so lucky to have Briggs today is also with the connection.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Ah, I don't think Briggs wouldn't do a lot of things that I ask him to do.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  So I asked you to open my show a couple of years. He almost did, but then he got sick or something. Briggs is probably, I don't even know where, you know, when we, but I just know that we're like, when we've gotten on phone calls together. Like he's the sort of guy that like, you know, I could just talk, you could just say, like this guy has no boundaries. So you can, you could sort of say anything to this guy. And you rant in the same way that I do about the world. You know, I think there's, you know, sometimes you just get frustrated and you're annoyed about the world or stuff. And there are some people that are just like, you know, that you can properly pour your heart out to and they make you, they make you feel less crazy. Even though Briggs is an annoying guy, makes me feel less crazy.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  We've probably got the same set of mental illnesses. Get us through these.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  And brains are synced up somehow.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Brains are synced up. Yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Well, let me give a bit more of a bio here for, apart from being an annoying man, I'll give you more context.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  I'll wear that. I know what I am.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Briggs is a prolific talent, a yoda yoda man who grew up in Shepparton. Briggs released his debut album Homemade Bombs in 2009 and hustled hard to become a mainstay in the Australian music industry. In 2014, Briggs released Shep Life and in 2017 released the multi-award winning album Reclaim Australia under the name AB Original with fellow rapper Trials. This album not only received critical and commercial acclaim, but would come to be understood as the definitive moment in Australian music history. Briggs has toured, how's this for, Briggs has toured with Ice Cube, Ice T, 50 Cent. That's, we need to talk about that because that's insane. The Hilltop Hoods and Paul Kelly are also insane.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  And almost Nazeem Hussain.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, but didn't want to.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Paul Kelly, 50 Cent was sick for Nazeem.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  And in 2015 began his own record label, Bad Apples Music, which mentors and supports emerging Indigenous artists. Briggs' talent is also not limited to music. In 2016, Briggs was on the writing team as well as regular cast members on Black Comedy. In 2017, wrote for the Netflix animated series Disenchantment. Briggs has voiced characters on Big Mouth, as well as collecting acting credits in Clever Man, The Other Guy and Boy Swallows Universe. In 2020, Briggs published his first children's book, Our Home, Our Heartbeat. And you'll be releasing your fourth single for Metal Project, Big Noter, on August 7th, I believe.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, the album will be out very soon. Spring. It's spring.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  His debut album, isn't it?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Well, for this project, yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. Awesome. The last thing I'll say just nearby is that the older I get, the more I think courage isn't about being fearless. It's about telling the truth when it would be easier not to. And for decades now, you've been telling the truth about identity, belonging, pain, pride and Australia itself. And that's a really rare gift. We're so happy to have you on the Imperfects.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  I'm happy to be here despite Nazeem. So I don't, it's a lot. I want to shout and damn it now.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Got out of Shelton.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  I thought it was going to be time. I thought it was going to be special.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  I reckon we start with your childhood maybe. You grew up in Shepparton.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  As an Indigenous kid growing up in Shepparton, what, what is that like?

• 5:32Speaker 00

  I was talking to a mutual friend of ours yesterday about this, Ben Shewry. And I, and like recently I've been kind of equating it to like being in the washing machine. It's like, you don't realise you're, you've been in it until you're on the other side of it. So like, when I talk to people after, you know, leaving Shepparton, leaving home, and I talk about stories and stuff of, of home, a lot of people are like, what the fuck was that? I was like, that's what it was. So it was a, it's like Shepparton is a super racist town.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  But I like, in the face of that is a vibrant, strong community of, of Black followers that have been there for, you know, thousands of years and other communities as well that, you know, that moved in.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  As I was growing up and I made a lot of friends with a lot of different nationalities that we kind of wore the same, you know, brand. Had white mates too. But yeah, it's hard to like, like everything growing up, like it wasn't, it wasn't bad in the sense of, I made it and I had a lot of love from my family and we had a great experience. But there was a lot of, you know, a lot of fucked up things that, that went on there.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Can you give us examples of maybe what racism for you as a child or even as a teenager, what it looked like and what it, how it played out?

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny, like to, to think about it like that kind of would almost suggest that it stopped. You know what I mean? Like it hasn't stopped. So I don't want to give it the grace of, this is how it was when I was a kid. It's like, no, this is how it is.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  You know, like my cousin is doing a documentary on the Rumble Rar Football Club, which is, you know, my dad was the president of forever. And, you know, my uncles were by his side.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  You know, my aunties and the whole community, you know, built that club. That was the nucleus of employment and health. In the face of, you know, white supremacy in, in Shepparton. And my cousin's doing the doco and he's interviewing me and we're just talking about the racism the football club faced, like just that. And, you know, someone like on the, the street to go down the drive to the, to the club, someone had made a sign that said Coon Drive. Like, and that was 2015.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Like it was done so well that it's almost like an art installation, you know?

• 8:46Speaker 03

  Someone spent time on that.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Someone, that's premeditated racism. It's not the sort of thing that just happens to come out on a night out.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  So I talk about the football club because that was my childhood. I played with my cousins there from when I was, you know, nine years old until I was, you know, 15. And then I found music and beers. But the club in a country town, your football club for that season, it's three days a week. It's your, it's your life. So between going to school and doing footy, that's everything, right? So like, when the, the club faced setback after setback, not back, like teams did not want the football club in their comps.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Until 97 or 98, a great man, Keith Wellman.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Um. Just put, there was no vote, there was, there was always normally a vote and all the other clubs would vote the Aboriginal club out, like, no, we're not going to accept their.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  In the league.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, in any league. Murray, Golden Valley, until Keith Wellman, um, and another bloke whose name I forget, um, they just said, no, I just done it. I just put, um, they put the Rumbaugh Football Club in the Division Two. And then, so like, just as an example of, you know, the racism, there was a team, um, the All Blacks were like affectionately known as the niggers. And this is ninety eight, you know, there's PlayStations.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  Like, this isn't old timey. And like, you know, like, that was this, like, oh, we're from niggerland, she, like, like, that's, so like.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  That's, that's kind of what we talk about when it's like, that's the racism, you know, that's, that was one.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  It's not a small town, like, it's not a country town. It's a, it's a, almost a city.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  It's a rural, like, what are they calling, they call them gateways.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Or a hub, central hub.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  It's a gateway. It's the fruit bowl of Australia.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  A gateway to what?

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. But, um.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  That's horrific. That's just to say that, I mean, they're just horrific to hear that. And I, I feel like I'm not, um, I'm not shocked, but, um, it's just heartbreaking to hear that.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's like, and like, that's what I mean. So like, those sentiments still ring, you know what I mean? Like, that ain't go away like that. It's just like, ah, now we can't sing our club song.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Where there's phones.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  But like, that was my childhood. But like, with that, you know, that wasn't just me, like, there was a whole community of us going through that. So we wore it, you know, together. But like, that's what I mean. Some people made it out, some people wore it better, you know, everyone adapts to survive in that kind of environment.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  And people still adapt, you know, and try to survive in that kind of environment. There's good people too, you know, it's like a carrot cake, right? More cake than it is carrot. You know what I mean? More racist than it's not.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  When, when you, um, I think it's really hard for so, a, a white guy like me to.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, man.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  That was the end of your sentence. I love that. I just wanted to get that in there.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Thought that was important to say.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Thank you for saying that. I was thinking the same thing.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  So brave.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  I was thinking the same thing. I'm so happy for your voice.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  You did talk about bravery before.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  For any white people listening out there, like, it's not easy.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  There's a broad audience for this podcast.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Please.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  So I can understand and know, know how wrong racism is from a moral point of view. But I think it's really hard to understand what it actually would feel like.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  To, to experience that as a child.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  I, I think the thing is, like, you don't, like, like, for me, like, I was a very anxious kid. So like, I would, going to school, I was like, hated it. I would be so anxious and nauseous. And I, and all I could say to my parents was, I feel sick. I don't want to go. I feel sick. Like, I couldn't, um, you know, I had, I knew what the symptoms were, but I couldn't, I didn't have a diagnosis. It was just, I felt sick. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to go. And it was beyond, like, the kid of like, oh, I don't like school. It's like, no, I actually was like.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  Feeling it in your body.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, all levels of anxiety. I, I didn't get that feeling again until I, I was an adult going to court. You know what I mean? And like, that's what it was. And so, like, I was like, oh, shit. That's that feeling I had when I was a kid. You know what I mean? It was like anxiety.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Um, but, so the racism, I think a lot of people, um, don't understand what racism really is. Like, or I should say, how they understand it is, you black this, you know what I mean? And so when they're like, but he said, you white this to me, that's racist as well. You know what I mean? Like, that's how they equate it. And like.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Like it's an ankle scale.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Cause like, it's interpersonal, right? It's interpersonal abuse. And it's like, it's, it doesn't make anybody feel good. Whereas like, the actual racism and the way that it's designed is exclusion. See, like, black followers were excluded from health, excluded from education, excluded from financial literacy. Like, these are the things that we're excluded from. We're excluded from society. Even the football club had to be on the outskirts of town. All the other clubs are in the middle. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's the acceptance of, you know.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  And people's, the racism falls in around the people of like, well, that's just the way it is. That's like, but it doesn't have to be. And like, it's the exclusion, like, that's what sets black followers back in the sense of the obvious, you're last to be served. So like, racism is that act. That starves you out, that slowly kills you.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Was like racism, like, well, obviously, I'm of, of a migrant background, like, it kind of, like, it, it, it makes sense, more sense to me. It's like, okay, my parents came from another country, we're guests to this new place. So when people point at us and go, you know, and racism, racism, like, it sort of makes sense logically.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Now you put it that way.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, you know.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  I've been trying to figure out what I didn't like about you. I fucking knew what.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  He's a guest. You treat your guests like shit.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  You're benefiting as well. No, but, yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  But with, with, with First Nations people, like, how, like, how do you square that circle or whatever, whatever the phrase? We, we, this is like, this is your home, you've got ancestral, you know, lineage here, but you're copping racism from like a newly arrived group of people who are excluding you and telling you, you know, making you feel like the outsider.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Like, there's also the, what, you know, they like to do is just move the goalposts. And so it's like, you know, well, if you want to do better at life and then participate in this society. And so you do, and you do all these things to, you know, play the game that we all have to play to, to live in Australia. And you say, yeah, but it's still kind of fucked for us. And then they say, ah, but you're not a real black follower anyway. Cause all the real black followers live in the Northern Territory. You have to be really, really good at this game to be able to succeed here for us.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Well, you can never tick all the boxes for the racist, to, to be the right type of.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  And like, I think as a part of survival, some people do. They, they try their best to fit in. And like, that's part of colonization, that's part of assimilation, you know? I get frustrated with people like that, but I always try to wind it back and not judge.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Because, you know, I've got enough going on in my life. But there's, there's always that thing of like, you know, someone's trying to appease the oppressor. This game for us in the last two hundred and fifty years has been about survival, resistance, and it's not easy.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Can I ask, when you were, you're talking about going to school there and the feeling of being kind of an outsider isn't a strong enough word, just excluded from

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  society, did you feel that like, there's the systems that you talked about, but was there like, what were the like leaders in inverted commas, that's like the principals and the teachers and like, how were you received at school? Did you feel welcome or you feel like not welcome to be here?

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Um, again, it was like, my mates were cool, largely, you know, but like, at school, like I had mates at school, like you'd have mates at work, you know, like this isn't gonna, you know, you can't come over house. You know what I mean? And like, you know, like, yeah, I'm not getting invited to that.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  But like largely, like, you know, because my parents were known, upstanding, um, you know, people of a community, like, there was a different treatment of me as well. I still felt the brunt. I guess to explain it like, a white Australian existence is largely individual. They say, I'm doing well, so why can't everyone else do well? Whereas the Black Forest's existence is community. It's like, I'm doing all right, but how's everybody else? Cause if everybody else isn't doing good, this is not good.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  Cause we're all being treated differently.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  So like going to school, one of my teachers, um, Mrs. Hinks, she was, she was lovely, but there was another guy there who like, you know, you'd get excluded, like, oh, you know, I was a rambunctious, loud mouth of a kid.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Hit me out. I know this is hard to accept.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Um, and like, so like, you'd be like, you go sit over there. And then if one of my mates was like trying to talk to me or something, say, don't talk to him, he's a loser.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Oh, teachers, teacher said that.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, that's crazy. That's just the start.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Sorry. And like, I had, I remember, you know, getting talked, talked down, like absolutely dressed down by this dude. And he was just like, you know, you'll be nothing, you know, you won't amount to anything. You'll, you'll be in jail like your cousins and rah rah rah. Like, I was 12.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  You know, like, this is primary.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  This is like, it's the opposite of a pep talk.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is primary.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  This is like late nineties.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, you know, Britney Spears was just coming out. Just to give everyone a soundtrack, you know? The boy bands were taking over. Offspring had, Offspring had come back with a weirdly pop record.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  And that was, it was like, you don't want to amount to nothing. Give it to me, baby.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a little bitch.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  You're a loser. You're a loser. Pretty fly for a while.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Like, when people say Briggs, or if you think, if people think of you publicly, like staunch is probably, that's the way that comes out. If there's like those word clowns, staunch would be the big one, I reckon. But I can't imagine an anxious, young, little Briggs, or even just a not confident kid.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  I think like, and you'd understand this, there's a difference in confidence and being a class clown. Like being confident is about being happy and feeling safe in that quiet moment. Whereas like, that's where I got nervous, cause someone's gonna say something racist. And looking back on it now, me, you know, I was like, I was probably just trying to, try my best to control that room so no one said anything.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Hmm, to get ahead of it.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And if I'm, if I'm the one with the joke, then.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  You're singing my song.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Then no, then no one else, give it to me, baby.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  We have the same childhood.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's like, like, I feel like that's where it sparked from. So it's like, I had to be quick, cause like, I was also the youngest and chubbyest of all of my generation of cousins. So I was getting ripped on constantly, building, you know, the darts. So like, I had to be ready.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Your match pit.

• 22:45Speaker 00

  Oh, bro. Like if I can defeat my cousin Doug.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Right, these kids are gonna make shit.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Doug's not on the Imperfects podcast, is he?

• 22:56Speaker 00

  If I can defeat Doug or, or Echo or whoever, like if I can get them back, bro, it's over for everyone. I was like, it's what we're talking about with weight classes. Like I was walking in there like Mike Tyson, you know? So like, yeah, I, I feel like confidence is being chill and safe and happy and in that vulnerability. Not in being over the top. Right, right. I wasn't a confident kid. I was a funny kid. But I was fucking anxious. Yeah, I was like hyper, hyper vigilant, hyper aware. I've looked at your conversation and I don't know where you're going. You know what I mean? If I'm gonna spark you, like I will, cause like, I know you're gonna like,

• 23:40Speaker 00

  like that dude would always make me nervous. I didn't like meeting new people. My mate would be like, you gotta meet someone, say, he's the funniest cunt you'll ever meet. And I was like, oh, great. Cause funny cunts are the ones that always got their jokes in their back pocket. You know what I mean? So it's like, ah, he's on his religious bit. Ah, he's on his politics. Like, here we go.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  It's coming.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Ready? Put my drink down. Well, not when I'm, you know, 11. Put my, put my juice, put my primer down. Right. All right. Get rid of this Milky Freeze. But like, but like, yeah, like you're hyper vigilant of, and hyper aware of people's conversations and it's exhausting.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  The anxiety makes total sense, cause that's like that, in that constant state of anticipation of like, where's it gonna come from?

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Well, it's that fear of being humiliated.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  And then just like that white hot rage. It's like, you humiliate me, dude, I'm, it's over for you. You know what I mean? That's not confidence.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  How does that then play out for you? Like if you do lose it to someone?

• 24:45Speaker 00

  I feel terrible. I got beat the shit out of somebody. I feel like absolutely gross about it.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  But like an understandable response to, to racism.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure. Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  But then what, what happens to you?

• 24:55Speaker 00

  It's contextual. It's not, it's not justification for it, but it's contextual.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Then what happens from like, do you get suspended? Do you get, so I'm guessing you get in trouble for that? And that's, that was like a cycle.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  I got, I got an in-school suspension for someone else telling a racist joke.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  When I was in high school, like, so like this was my school experience. Like this is why I had such a bad time at school. There was a girl who told a racist joke in another class. I wasn't even in the class. And then for whatever reason, yeah, schools go, goes nuts.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  She, she told the, she said something racist in a class in the morning. By recess, it had got around that Briggs had heard about it and he's gonna get his girl cousins to bash you down the mall.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  And I was like, this what? And so like, she's sitting outside the vice principal's crying. I'm in the vice principal's office and I'm like, I don't know, you threatened to this, that and the third. So bro, I did not, man. Like, I'm just like, yeah, I only heard about this now. And he was like, well, she's crying, so that's punishment enough. But, you know, you rah rah rah. I was like, I didn't do this. Like, I'm not even in that class. And then, yeah, the next day, I went to class and I was put in a, I got put in timeout. When I showed up, like you're in timeout. I'm like, what?

• 26:26Speaker 00

  So what they would do is like you'd, they'd give me these things called in-school suspensions. And you'd go sit in timeout and you couldn't get out of timeout until that teacher would come and sign you out. So if the teacher forgot, they put you in timeout. You just weren't going back to class.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Did that happen?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Did they forget?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Forget.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Like, yeah, I was, so yeah, I got an in-school suspension for that. By high school, I had grown much more of a fuck you. In primary school, I was more, I was, I guess I was more scared. I was a little kid. But by high school, I was like, whatever, dog. We can get into it. Let's go.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Figured out the recipe.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Well, I was, I just stopped giving a fuck. Like, it was like, I'm not gonna be pushed around. Like I remember in high school, like.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Decided I wasn't gonna stand for the anthem anymore. I got in trouble for that. But like ever since high school, I was just stopped. I was like, this song sucks. Doesn't represent, you know, this is not the offspring. I won't be standing for this.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Not a banger.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, certified, does not slap, doesn't mention fly guys at all.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Not one mention. It kind of, it builds acts of rebellion, resilience. But it builds a lot of spite, you know?

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Our, um, so our, our dad is Sri Lankan and he came to Australia when he was, uh, nine or 10 years old.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, yep.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Would have been late 50s, early 60s. And he told, I remember him telling us the story. He was on a tram once and he was just minding his own business and a kid he didn't know came up and just punched him in the face. And that was kind of, I remember him telling, it was shocking to hear that story. Um, and he was just like, yeah, well, I just looked really different. Um, and I often wonder what that did to his sense of self or his, um, the impact that kind of thing had on him. I'm just wondering in a similar way, like the, what is that continual hypervigilance? And then after a while you adapt to like, well, fuck this and you feel rightfully so quite angry and, and

• 28:52Speaker 03

  um, do things like not stand for, you know, for the anthem. What does that, all that do to your sense of self at that, you know, in your teenage years?

• 29:01Speaker 00

  I think, I think for me, it was just like, I was

• 29:06Speaker 00

  in those teenage years, that's when I started to kind of develop my personality of like my identity and where I stand and where I fit in this, you know, society outside of,

• 29:24Speaker 00

  outside of my community. I started to, to think more about what do I want to do?

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Cause it was like, you know,

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Aboriginal community, your earliest memories, a lot of funerals, you know? So it's like, I think that, I, I never thought it out loud. I never said, well, if we're dying early, I'm gonna do what I want. But I think that was part of it. The thing for me, it's like, I'd watched so many people die, like in their 50s, that it was like, there's no point digging holes, you know what I mean? Like, if you wanna do something, you have to go and do it.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  You know, all of these things were like, kind of a perfect storm for me to, to create this, to create my art, really. My experience was like, if I'm going through this, I imagine at least 200 other people are. And if 200 other people buy my T-shirt, that'll be, I'll be rich.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  That's how you think when you're, when you're 17.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  So you're aware of other people feeling what you were feeling when you were making your art? It wasn't just that you were making?

• 30:46Speaker 00

  It wasn't so much I was aware of it. I just figured it has to be. I can't be like, I'm not that special. I guess like to kind of correlate it, you know, with your dad's story. It felt like we were getting punched in the face every day. And it's like, it's gonna happen every day. And it's dangerous because some people don't survive that. And like, I kind of watched my old man, you know, build the footy club and all these things around it to help lessen those, those kind of blows, you know? And to help build, uh, an identity, a nucleus, a safe place to be yourself.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  And so like, it's a really bizarre lineage

• 31:35Speaker 00

  of, like, it's, it's hard to even call it anomalies and outliers when there's so many. When you're talking about, you know,

• 31:46Speaker 00

  William Cooper, Sir Doug Nichols, my old man, you know, Jimmy Little, Tony Briggs, um, Arnie Mark Tucker, like all these amazing minds.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  You know, coming from this one place, the Cameron Johnson Mission, and changing the world in sport and in politics and in art. And like this one mob having such, it's like, when there's so many, how is it an outlier? It's like, so what's my place in that? Where do I fit? In this, you know, lineage, like what's my contribution? Not like, what do I get? But what's my, what's gonna be my contribution to this? And it's like, I can't think about like that when I'm a kid, cause I'm just like, I'm gonna sell 200

• 32:43Speaker 00

  T-shirts. But now, like, that's what I was doing. I was contributing to our story. I guess the point of it was like, nothing,

• 32:54Speaker 00

  nothing is fueled by racism.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Like,

• 33:02Speaker 00

  racism didn't, didn't, you know, that's a, that's a white construct. So like, these people were great in spite of that, in the face of that.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  They're already great.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, racism.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  You know, it was, it was like fueled the spite maybe. And like spite is a bad fuel. It's like, it only, it only lasts for so long. It's a young man's fuel.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  And that was your fuel for a while?

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, oh, I think I can't watch this. Oh, I can do that. Yeah. They told me I wouldn't finish school. It's like, all right. I did it. I did it my way and, you know, got it over the line. And, you know, so like.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Kind of cracked you open.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Well, spite was like,

• 33:52Speaker 00

  spite was like, it was a good fuel for, but it wasn't.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Not sustainable.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  No, you can't live off it because it's, it's so potent.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  It's a negative kind of energy.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  And I think that's what I mean. It's a negative thing. Like, like to take it back to what I was saying about racism, racism is so negative. That if to suggest that these things happen, you know, from these great people happen only in the face of racism.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  You know, it doesn't do justice to the people, the people they are and what they actually created.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  The positivity and the beauty and the culture and the community.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, the strength of that. It's resistance, it's standing, you know what I mean? It's not, it's not because of this. It's because of us.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  What does spite, what does the fuel, fuel evolve in to for you? Does that make sense?

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I think like, like I use spite to, to do a number of things, but it was just like quick. I, I equated it to using like NOS in your car or something like that.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Fast and the Furious.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  This is about family.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  So like.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  You still need the car.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you're still gonna have a car. But like, you know, premium is what I want.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you, but you could metabolize racism, whereas a lot of people, they can't turn it into NOS.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, no. And this is what I like. Yeah, I don't, I don't tell people to like do what I did. You know, like, what I did was very specific and like it takes, as I said, a good set of various mental illnesses.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  And your cousins.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  To be able to cancel, to be able to cancel, you know, these things out, to be able to walk into this fire and like, like truly face it. And it's that sense, like I always talk about off the cuff, like, cause I don't give a fuck. But in reality, I give all the fuck.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  I care the most about my friends and my family and my community and wider community. You know what I mean? That's why we do the things.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Man, when you, when you, when you were like taking on the voice, you know, um, being one of the main faces for that, like far, just, you know, seeing up close, the emotional, like you are copping it from Australia, Australia wide. Just championing something that is not necessarily popular or proved to be not entirely popular.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Imagine that, especially at home.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that, I mean, that you can't, that is, um, you've got to, yeah, you've got to, I, I mean, I don't know how you, I kind of do. It's, it's fricking exhausting.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's tiring.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  How you cop all that?

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, but like, you do it because I, I think again, I was like, that's my contribution. Everyone's like, how much did he get paid to do that? I'm like, fuck all, nothing. I got paid nothing. I should have been paid. My shit did the most. You know what I mean? My, my application and my execution rang the most bells. I got fuck all. So I couldn't even get a flight, but, um,

• 37:12Speaker 00

  but like, that's not why you do it. You do it, you know, we do things, I mean, you know, we talk about this at home, we do things because it's the right thing to do. I knew going into like the voice, it was like a losing battle. It's like, but if you don't show, you know, some strength and, you know, present something, so what are, what are we doing? Like, we might as well just give everything up.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  Do you, are, are you close with Adam Good's?

• 37:47Speaker 03

  I, I think about Adam all the time and I feel just this huge sadness for what happened. How were you through all of that, watching, seeing, watching, it must have been just a horrific experience?

• 37:58Speaker 00

  It was fucking frustrating is what it was. Cause the, I got in an argument with some dickhead on Triple J, some lib nat senator. I, I remember like, cause like people's arguments was like, oh, we're not booing him because it's racist. We're booing him because he's a flog. And it's like, well, okay, fair enough. Like you're entitled to your opinion if you think he's a flog. But if you knew that someone next to you was booing him to be racist, wouldn't you not boo? Wouldn't you not join in? You know what I mean? Or, or do you join in anyway? Cause then like, we don't know who's who. So fuck you both. You know what I mean?

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I got into it with that dude and he was like, well, I was at a dinner the other night and, you know, these, um, a, a lot of people around the table, they didn't care for Adam goods. And I said, oh yeah, were they white or were they black? And he was like, there, it was a range of people. I said, were they white or were they black? And that was the end of that.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  So yeah, I think like, to look at the, the goodsey situation is a, it's an interesting part of an AFL story that hasn't fixed itself yet.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Like it's a long way off.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Right. Well, it's like, that's like, imagine being that good.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  And, and they let him go like that. Like this dude was no slouch, whether you like him or not. Brown lows, all Australian premierships, he is top five player of all time. You know, no arguments, the stats are there. But it, it'll be a blight on the AFL forever. But it's only one story.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  Oh yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  You know, it's one story and until they address the racism that happens at the Rumbalara Football Club, how can they address the racism at the elite level?

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Tell me.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  I think it's good to get a white person's opinion.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  No, but like, that's what I'm talking, like, you know, it, it wasn't a couple of years ago. My, my old man walked off the under 14s, um, in Yay.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Walked them off the field because of racism over the boundary line and umps and that did nothing about it. Under 14s, like that's how old I was when we were experiencing racism.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  Well, to, I mean, to answer your question, what, what kids see is like, I watch my son play basketball and you know, it's ridiculous, but he does Steph Curry, like put him to sleep celebrations after he does a layout. They, they, they, it's like, they just copy what they see. And until it's demonstrated at, at the top level, how we treat.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Cause I feel like the AFL is like, you know, it's a microcosm of wider Australia.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And also it's like, if, if a, a black person or a person of colour challenges racism at the AFL, just like if they challenge it broadly in Australian society, man, you become a lightning rod. You cop it like, like goodsey was an, is a, not a, he's not a firebrand. He's not an Adam Briggs. He's not gonna fight people in the comments section. Like he's a nice dude and the shit that he cop for just, you know, I would say very moderately pushing back.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  It's embedded within the country statistically. So it's, it has to be a part of the biggest billion dollar industry. My old man was the co-chair of the Indigenous Advisory Committee for the last 10 years. But if the AFL aren't taking his advice, then what's the point?

• 42:10Speaker 00

  You know, what are we doing? And they've had the lowest Indigenous recruitment ever this year. So, and it's not just that, we're talking about player retention. You know, we're talking about, there's a, there's a plethora of, of issues that they would have to address. But it all starts with the under 14s and the kids.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Stopping, stamping out racism in, in AFL isn't about

• 42:48Speaker 00

  protecting players so much as it is about protecting families who live the game as well, who mum, whose mums drive these kids to, you know, they're mourning Aus kicks and stuff like that. Like that's what we're, that's what we're trying to protect. We're trying to future proof the sport, trying to future proof, you know, the semblance of a culture

• 43:16Speaker 00

  of the greatest game, but they have to fully commit to it.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  You just spoken about the work that you put in for the ref, for the yes, no, um, vote and

• 43:29Speaker 00

  I put in work for the yes.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  Just over square?

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Just to get that on the record.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  To do half a yes, half a no. May I work for the fence?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Incredible work, uh, as has been acknowledged. And, um, I remember what it felt like for me that night and the next day. Um, and subsequently from there. But I'm really curious to know what, what, how that landed with you and what do you do with that next? Like what, what, what comes after that?

• 44:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember like, just being so exhausted after that. I was like, um, we put in a lot of work, um, just talking to people and trying to explain like, what this is and, you know, what a, like a lot of people didn't know what a referendum was. Like they didn't know, you know, they're like, oh, I don't like the sound of that. It's like, what was the question of principle?

• 44:46Speaker 00

  You know, and like, so it was a really easy, um, thing for the, you know, for the opposition to, to, to

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Sort of weaponize.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  And we, cause it's like this scary thing, you know, like they were using like old tactics that black folks were coming for your backyards and whatnot. So it dredged up some like, some old boomer racism we hadn't seen for a long time, you know? That were coming for their backyards, like dude, I don't want your backyard.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  I want your front yard and your house.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  I want your mini properties, but um,

• 45:25Speaker 00

  I want all your property, give me them. No, but it was like, um, you know, me and Nash Edgerton, um,

• 45:36Speaker 00

  like worked really closely on that, the ad that we came up with. Like again, he had a crew that was working on a advertisement and they're all hung out for the next day to, um, to, to put that together, you know? So like, we did so much work and then like that night,

• 45:57Speaker 00

  I was like, it was like, it's like boxing, man. Boxing's the greatest analogy for life. It's like, I could box every day, train, whatever. Yeah. Punch in your face is gonna hurt. You know what I mean? Like training does not help that. You're punched in your face, it's gonna hurt. And so when that blow came in, like, and we knew it was coming, like, I just knew it. Cause like, I'm not a dummy. I'm my ears to the street, feet on the ground, you know? And I, and like, but still bang, it's like, ah.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  And so like, I went to Japan the next day.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  As planned, but it was like, but I'd done my work. You know, I'd done what I, I, I, I put in my contribution.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  I put in my contribution and I was like, I hadn't been on a holiday for like five years or something like that, maybe longer. And so I was like, bet, I'm, I'm out of here.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, uh, I'm a dummy then, cause I had hoped that it would get up. And, um, I, I think it was for someone who sort of clearly lives in a bubble.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  It was like a, oh fuck, this is who we are currently as a country.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  It was almost a relief for me in that sense, cause I could be like, oh well, there you, there you are.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  There's a proof.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, there it is.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And everyone's like, no, it's not racism. Might be racist.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I had this like pretty dumb, well, it's a dumb idea that I've had probably till very recently where I was like, I grew up thinking, oh yes, a lot of racism. By the time I'm an adult and I've got kids, you know, it'll all be done. Like they'll have finished with that.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  They'll tire themselves out.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Still going on, you know?

• 47:52Speaker 00

  They'll really tire themselves out.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  They've got a second and a third and fourth wind, you know?

• 47:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  You know, like, you know, as, as, like you, you know, I was, um, I could see the, I could see the racism and I, I was quick on my feet, fast tongue. I would assist her not so much. She internalized a lot of it, got quieter. Most, I've found now during stand up, a lot of my audiences, brown people in there, like they have lived most of their adult, their lives up until now, kind of trying to fit in, you know? Just dulling down the parts of them that make them different or stand out or make them more ethnic or whatever. Cause they don't have the sort of, I don't know, whether it's just an ADHD trait or whatever. It's just that kind of the arrogance to give it back. Um, or just the, just the, you know, I don't know, the sense of humor to, to, to win over a crowd, um, in the moment.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  But yeah, racism's, it's, it's getting crazy. I, I, I honestly, I feel like it's crazier than it's been in a long time.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  It's definitely been, it's definitely sparked up.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Like a lot more.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  I feel like especially post, post referendum. It was like way more emboldened.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Like now we have the right.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  They call you this, that and the third, you know, like as my nieces and, you know, nephews experienced in the playground and whatnot. But I think like what Naz was talking about as well, there's like this idea that they, you know, brown people, ethnic people can't be themselves. It's like, it's part of that survival just to get through the day. And it, it even sparks back to what you were talking about with, with Goodsey. Like as soon as you remind them that you're Aboriginal or more importantly, you remind them that they're white. They don't like it.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  And they really try to shut that down. And I say, we gave you a round of football. It went over two weeks. We gave you a round and this is how you repay us? You know, it's like this idea that this patronizing idea that we should, we should be thankful for all the great things that we have, you know?

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  And.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  I mean, that's my DMs, just like, how dare you criticize Australia after all we've given you? If it was, I literally had probably this morning, if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't have a comedy career. And I was like, I don't think you.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  That's just me. And that was, that was just mine.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  No, but it's like, it's like, it's a common thing for people to survive.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  Is to act more Australian, you know, and assimilate. You know, and like, that's what they talk about. Like you wanna come here, you gotta, you gotta take on, you know, our Aussie values. They don't even know what the fuck they were.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Well, Captain Cook didn't do that either.

• 50:55Speaker 00

  No.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  He didn't assimilate to existing culture.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  No, he brought his values.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  But it's like, you know, which is why in a way, I feel like Adam Good's in, is kind of, I don't mean this, like he's sort of ordinary in that he, he, he was an AFL star. He was in the middle of Australian culture. He, he couldn't be any more Aussie than an Aussie AFL star. But then took the risk to spend that social capital he built over his entire career and point out a problem with Australian culture with the intent of making this place better.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Imagine that. And it cost him a lot, but, but what, what, what was, what's so inspiring about that is like that step and that risk and that spend that he, you know, intended or not intended. Like he spent that for Australia. And I feel like it's kind of, it's made me and it's made people that I've spoken to feel like, you know, that's sort of, that's the, that's what we need to do. We need to sort of spend some of our, you need to sort of risk, take a risk, call something out, call out what's wrong with this society to make it better. Otherwise, if we just kind of all shut up and assimilate.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Like that's been like the whole, the risk taking of my career. The fact that everything I do is a risk, you know what I mean? Like can't just be a rapper. Everything is like, you know, tied in with this, with this risk of like, you know,

• 52:22Speaker 02

  You get a copper.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Going against white Australia and what they profess their values are. Like if you asked what their values were, they'd be like, it's looking after your mates. It's, you know, barbecues and beers, you know? Like, like they don't have that in Brazil.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Maitre, do you mean friendship?

• 52:46Speaker 00

  It's different with this, you mate.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  It's not gay, not like, not like friends. No, but like.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  We don't have friends, we got mates.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  But like, but like this is the thing, it's like,

• 53:07Speaker 00

  like people look at culture, they, they talk about Australian culture, right? And when they talk about Aboriginal culture, they talk about, you know, they'll talk about art and dance and song and stuff like that. These are products. These are, these are products, like the culture are the values.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Like that's what we carry with us everywhere we go. You know, our values are what defines these dances, these artifacts and these songs. My values are what my culture is built on. That's why I can, you know, carry myself around the world. It's not about dance and songs. Cause like, if you don't have your values intact,

• 54:00Speaker 00

  your dance, your song, you know, your words don't mean anything.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  And it's like, those values only really manifest once tested.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Because it's, it's like, there's no reason to assert a value.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Well.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  You know, you.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  The, the values are nurtured by a community.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  So it's, it's a compassionate thing. Not a, not a conflicting or confrontational thing. It's compassion. It's understanding.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Who you are. That's culture.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  And that's why Australia largely is so lost because it's, because its values and, and culture are all mixed up. Everyone has a different idea about what it is. And everyone has a different idea about how we treat each other and, and what it looks like and what it can be and what it should be, you know? And it's like, you know, what is it? It's not these superficial things that exist everywhere else around the world. Like the culture of this place is us.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  We've been here for, you know, thousands of years. It's us. So like, until they can reconcile that,

• 55:31Speaker 00

  like what else is there?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Bars, barbecues and mates.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Vegemite, which is from Europe, actually.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  I'm sure Pauline has thought all this out for us.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm fingers crossed for that, but um.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  I actually kind of wanna see it, just to watch it tumble. Yeah. She has no policies aside from anything. Apparently like she doesn't even go to parliament most of the time. She has to pay the fines. It's hilarious.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  One of the things that I've been trying to like, like bring to the fore is the idea that racism isn't a myth. And it showed itself, you know, with the referendum. It shows itself often, often, often within the AFL. But there's real life, like repercussions for people. Like not in the sense of the ones who deliver the abuse, but kids living in a racist society, there are like mental health which turn into physical health issues, you know what I mean? And like the racism isn't just up in the air, name call here, name call there, and it's finished.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? There is, it's, it's not this, this ethereal thing. It's like, it's a real tangible on the ground issue.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  So I just think about what Rumble, our football club is to Shepparton.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  And Indigenous people in Shepparton. You went on to then be that culturally, artistically for entire nation of Indigenous people, which is just incredible. And I'm sure you know, you don't sit back and reflect on it too often, but it is amazing. Who, who were your inspirations? Like who were you musically? And when did you realize you were good at music and who inspired you?

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Music's funny, man. Like art, art is funny. Like you, like I make things and then I'm done with it. So everybody should listen to the new album coming out because I'm already done with it.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  I guess like the point is this, like it was never just about music for me. Growing up in a town like Shepparton, it was just about not being bored. It was about entertainment and I just loved like the most, the highest forms, the truest, most like, like I call it syrup. Like these forms of entertainment, like.

• 58:01Speaker 03

  Offspring.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Terminator two.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  You know?

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Timeless.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  Like, like wrestling, like the Attitude Era, like syrup of, of, of entertainment. Like I just loved all that over the top stuff. And I think because the absurdity of it all made me laugh as well.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  And music was kind of like the thing that I could reach, I had access to, cause I didn't have a camera to make a film. And I could grab a guitar and like start to, you know, get, at least get my foot in the door.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  I didn't really have like musical heroes in Australia until much later.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Um, when I kind of matured a bit and understood um, legacy and stuff a little bit more, like my heroes musically were like,

• 58:59Speaker 00

  you know, Tupac, Biggie and Ice Cube, Chuck D. Like, you know, Rage Against the Machine, like that was my.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  Countercultural stuff a lot.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. But like shit that just sounded cool to me and was aggressive.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Attitudy.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  Cool. It's like, yeah, it's dangerous, a little bit scary. And it synced up with the action movies that I love so much.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Terminator two.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Bro, all this shit, like Guns N' Roses, like the most perfect song you could be mine in Terminator two with like the most hectic lyrics that I should never have had. That was like my first take, you know? When I come home late at night, don't ask me where I've been. Just count your stars that I'm home again. Bro, Axl, Axl Rose.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  Just say that to my mum.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  She sends it to your room.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Straight up. She knows where I've been. In my room, trying to learn that on guitar.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  I don't get like, you, you, you know, you grow up this anxious kid, you know, art was a thing for you. I don't know how you didn't turn out a people pleaser like me or even you, you know? Because you, you, you don't, you only tell the truth. Like you got, you got invited to the Commonwealth Games to perform at the Commonwealth Games. What, what? And then you just replied.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Fuck no.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Like, he does not do polite rejection.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  I have no interest in that at all.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Has that ever been a trigger? Like, has the people pleasing thing ever crept in? Or you're just like, nah?

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Fuck them.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  You know, like, never.

• 1:00:35Speaker 03

  God, that's so inspirational.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  Is that crazy?

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  I think like, it's just like, the Commonwealth, fuck them.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not them in particular. I'm sure that one's pretty obvious. We've got a broad audience here.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  They can handle the fuck off.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  They've handled everything else. You know what I mean?

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  The empire's not gonna crumble with your reina.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  They'll be fine. They'll be fine. I don't know, like with the, the people pleasing, just never rang a bell with me. I never needed that many mates.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  So what about being a chameleon or anything? You ever try to fit in?

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Bro, look at me.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, but have you ever, so you've never had the urge to try and fit in?

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  How? How could I fit in?

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  That's just foreign to me.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, but like, how could I fit in? I'm me. Like, I'm just, like, I look like me. Six one, tons of fun.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like, I just never had that. I just, I just never wanted to please everybody.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  But that's what makes me feel like, I know you talk about not having this level of confidence, but that's a level of confidence that a lot, like, most people don't have, to be able to just be themselves in all. And I get you don't have a job to get fired from, so you sort of, you're not gonna pick.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  But we kind of do. You know what I mean? Like, we can, we can lose jobs, you know what I mean? Like, I've, it was one part of my whole career there where I was just like, I'd turned down more money than I'd ever made. Cause it's like, it just didn't, I didn't wanna do it. It didn't sit.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Was that, was that my gig when I asked you to open?

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  More money, that would cost me money. That would cost me money. But like, yeah, I was just never had this, like, please, who? Them. Fuck them. You know what I mean? Like, like, I always, I, you know, you could chalk it up to like, Ice T and Ice Cube and all these guys, like, they never asked me how I felt about things. They told me. You know what I mean? So like, the guys I looked up to as artists, they weren't temperature checking. You know what I mean? They were the check.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  So I was like, fuck that. Who, like, please, who for what? Like, these cunts hate me anyway. You know what I mean? So I was like.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  That's why you're not a comedic, cause comedians are constantly like, did you find that funny? Like, if there's no laugh every 10 seconds, we're like, I'll change for you. But with you, I mean, you're, you've now gone into this brand new genre.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  It's a new genre?

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Punk. Like, that is, I mean, how'd you know you weren't gonna suck?

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  Nah, cause I don't do things badly. You know what I mean? Like.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  Hang on, are you saying a new genre of music?

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got from, this big note of record is like, wave.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  It's gone from hip hop to?

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  It's hard rock. It's like Body Count in Spidey, Rage Against the Machine. Like, like, it's actually like, I was, like, it's one gear, this whole record. There's no, all gas, no brakes. The album's called.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  All Noss.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, All Noss. The album's called Songs, Songs in the Key of Wrestling. And so like, every song could be.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  A walkout rapper?

• 1:03:44Speaker 00

  Wrestlers.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's sick.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  And so it's just like, it, it's funny because like, to the untrained ear, it would probably sound very surface level and superficial and just angry and, you know, and I completely accept that. But in reality, it's probably the most free I've been in music for a little bit. Cause like, this is the shit that I was listening to and wanted to make when I was a kid. So like, this is all the kind of music that we, like, grew up on, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's actually like deeper than you think. In that sense, in a, in a creation, in an artist, like, like, but.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  On the other side of it, you know, there's a bunch of songs about punching people in their face, you know? So it's like, it's very cathartic.

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  Got a song about your dad in there. The guy on the tram all enjoys it entirely.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Can I actually ask something about the, since you've mentioned being a kid?

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  I, I might be saying something that's not there, but um, when I was watching some, some of your film clips, some of your songs today, I was noticing how often there are shots of beautiful little kids in there.

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Um, and the thing that was coming through to me was the idea of a, a kind of, a, a loss, a loss of innocence or a loss of a childhood. Do you, do you feel like through your upbringing in Shep and what you went through, do you feel like your childhood is cut short?

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  Um, nah, like, I think some people are, for sure. I was privy to a lot of,

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  you know, childhoods, you know, so collectively as a community, for sure, you're gonna grow up a little bit faster. There's a lot of, there's a lot more adult things that, you know, some kids have to deal with.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  I got a different feel, I got a feeling of like, oh yeah, this is um, catha, like, it feels like the little brown kid in me, watching that would be like, yeah, look, that kid kinda looks like me, there's a black kid there. You know, and they're in a hip hop clip. Even like, you know, you got the kids book, which my, my kids make me read often. And I can't get your damn voice out of my head when I'm reading it. But it's like, it features kids and it's got all the young Aboriginal kind of like, superstars.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  They're kicking goals, singing, acting, performing.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  Well, that was like, sorry to cut you off.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  The kids book, like, my goal from Shep life onward was to make Aboriginal cool. Because largely, we were spoken about in a past tense that we were, even in the history books in high school. It was like, they were a nomadic people, wandered around for a bit, didn't do much, and then we came and, you know, brought all the good shit. I remember like, again, going back to that school situation of feeling othered

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  when, you know, you would look at like storybooks and stuff on, on the shelf and there'd be like, you know, I was a bit, this is before, like, after I was there, but like Gary Lyon had a book about a kid that would kick a footie or whatever. I thought, where's all the, where's all the Blackfellas? Where, all, all we are is dreamtime stories. And this idea that we live in this ethereal place that isn't my nan's house around the corner. Where I was getting roasted by Doug.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? So it was like, the kids book was like, all right, what would be the book that I wished I could grab from the storytime shelf for the teacher to read? When I was seven, there wasn't like this thing that like was like a fairy tale in a sense of a dreamtime story that, it's like, when, when, like, yeah, there's that and there's always gonna be a time for that. That's so important. But also, we exist now in the present and have done amazing things. And continuing to do amazing things. So what does that book look like and sound like? And like, it's kind of what I've tried to do with my career.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  And it's kind of like, the cheat code thing that I've had, it's like, I just look for the thing that's not there and then I make that thing. That book wasn't there, so I made it. There was no indigenous record label in Bad Apple's music doing it how it needed to be done. So I did it in a commercial sense. You know what I mean? Australia didn't have its public enemy NWA moment for rap music. So I made that. Like, you know, these are the things that like drive me. It's like, what's not there? What needs like, cause if it's done, I don't wanna do it. Cause if it's done well, you know what I mean? Like, why build a car when there's Ferraris? You know what I mean? Like.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  It speaks so beautifully to what you said right at the start about when you're talking about all the incredible people from your community that, what's your contribution gonna be?

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  That's a pretty powerful contribution.

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Not everyone should do what you do, you know? Not everyone should walk into the fire. But um, but you, you obviously did and you've done pretty, you know, you've done pretty well. If I could even, that's hard for me to admit.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  But uh, I mean, what, what is the difference between you and the other nine out of 10 that, that, that can't do what you do?

• 1:09:39Speaker 00

  Well, you just say it's like, you know, they're gonna take a mental health break because they've. Walked into the fire.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, how is your like, how is your mental health?

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Terrible. No, I'm largely fine. Like, like, as long as I like, get to do the things that I need to do, like box and like, I'm bipolar two, ADHD, which kind of complement each other. Bipolar two, that's the better one.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Which one?

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  It's the sequel.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the judgment day.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like Guns N' Roses.

• 1:10:13Speaker 03

  I've actually got, I've actually got the definition here of bipolar two, because I wasn't sure. So,

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  it's a lifelong mental health condition characterized by recurrent severe major depressive episodes alternating with periods of elevated energetic moon notice, hypermania. Unlike bipolar one, the up periods in bipolar two never escalate to full blown disruptive mania.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that's how you get the albums.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Those riding windows.

• 1:10:40Speaker 00

  That's where you get those albums.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  How long have you known about that?

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and also how do you manage that, those depressive states?

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Um, I'm really aware, like I do therapy every so often. Probably not as much as I should, but as much as I can. I train, I box, I try to stay off the booze.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  Like, that's largely it for me. Like, they're still trying to work out my ADHD medication and what that looks like. But like, I've been like this, you know, since forever. So like, I'm curious to figure out if I can, you know, gain some more focus. That'd be nice. But like, you know, if I could do the washing, that'd be sick.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  But yeah, like, how do I manage? Like, I guess as well as anybody else.

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  I'm interested to know what the like, um, what those depressive states feel like for you. I think people feel depression in different ways.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  I think like depressive states, I think people think it's like, oh, you're sad and it's not. It's like, it's like just CBF for me. You're void of joy. You know, it's like, you're just like.

• 1:12:02Speaker 03

  It's just nothing.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's indifference.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  The CBF is often an ADHD thing as well.

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I think CBF is probably too blasé, but I think what you're asking me for is to describe it is more indifference.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I know what you mean by that. I've been, I've had some pretty low moments in my life. And I, for me, it's, uh, and I thought I was, I was like, that's behind me. I've dealt with that and then it comes back.

• 1:12:29Speaker 00

  I can always get you.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. But for me, it's that, yeah, it's this kind of, um, it's a numbness to things that I should be, that should.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  Joyful.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, joy or I can't, for me, it's almost as much like, like the color in things disappears a bit. Like I don't notice a beautiful view or something. It's just like, I, it's a narrowing of the, it's a narrowing of the, the.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  The lens to a place where it's just like, nothing's really getting in.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I kind of get that. Like, for me, talking with my therapist about it, she's like, you're pretty good at identifying when you're up and when you're, when you're down.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  So like, when I do, you know, and when I take a day, I'm like, oh shit. Like, great work. Okay, bet. And then I'll set myself certain tasks just to keep myself on track. I'll hit up my PTs and be like, bro, I need PT, you know what I mean? To box, rah rah rah. Cause like, I know that I'm better for it on the other side of it.

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  What do you feel like when you're boxing?

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  Zen. Boxing's sick. Like, everyone thinks like you're boxing, you're angry. It's like, you box terrible when you're angry. Terrible when you're angry. You box better when you're clear headed, when you're just like, just bang, bang. It's all fluid and it's all zen.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  Rhythmic as well.

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. When you're just like relaxed, you box way better.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  So with, with the depressive states, is it, is it purely like a chemical thing or is it, can it be brought on? Like if you're something, you know, if you're just stressed or if there's, the world is pissing you off?

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Uh, the world's like, I, I think like, if, if it was triggered by the world, I'd be depressed way more often. You know what I mean? I think it's just like, I haven't put a finger on it because I've never been properly,

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  medicated for it or for my ADHD. I've just managed it myself dangerously. But like, I think for me, when I'm like, I shit them up. It's like, that means there's going to be, I've got to maintain and make sure that the crash is.

• 1:14:42Speaker 03

  Must come down.

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, for real. So I'm, so like, I'm just, again, it's like hyper aware of things like that. And sometimes you don't realise you're up until you stand in the middle of a Gucci store, you know?

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  Just loving the bags.

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  Just buying a jacket.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Smashing bags. And jackets.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  So it's not the cycles are not like timed like that.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  No, bipolar two is a bit different. It's a bit more chaotic.

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  So when, when you had that diagnosis, so when I had my ADHD diagnosis, it made, a lot of things made sense. And so I've done things like when I unpack the dishwasher, I'll literally tie myself to the dishwasher with a dog's lead.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  He's serious?

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  When you tie it like to the cupboard?

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  You've got a collar.

• 1:15:28Speaker 03

  It's like those extender ones.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  And then the other one's with his mask.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  No, just, it's not around my neck.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  How do you reach the sink from all fours?

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  He's got one of those little Valkyrie, he's got his name on it. Sparkles.

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  I highly recommend, um, the amount of times you go, I might go over there and I can't. So anyway, but so all that to say, when you get the bipolar two diagnosis, did it help you make sense of things in your life? And what did it feel like to get that diagnosis?

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was good because it's like understanding yourself, right? Like, that's a big part of, um, my existence. It's like, at this point, it's like making art, creating things. And I feel like it only makes me a better person or a better artist if I know about myself. And for other people in my life to make sense, not to justify things, but to give context to like, he's fucking nuts today.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Is that your email signature?

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  I'm sure, I'm sure the people that work with me are like, this fucking guy is on one today. We need to like, put the, put the safety pads around him. Cause like, but yeah, it's like, cause it, it can, I think as well, like with bipolar two, it's like, you can,

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  exhibit like dangerous behaviours and stuff like that, like.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Risk taking on the adrenaline high sort of thing.

• 1:17:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. So which might give sense to like me not giving a fuck, you know what I mean? Walking out into things, into traffic, you know, not actually walking in traffic, but you know what I mean?

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  Metaphoric.

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  Traffic.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Internet traffic.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  The more dangerous of the traffic.

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  So yeah, like, like I was, it was just good to have that, that sense. I used to leave, notes for myself on my coffee machine because that's where I used to hang out of a morning most of the time. My coffee machine was like everything. So I'll just leave reminders for myself to like, you know, things I want to think about and, you know, stuff that I should meditate on before I, you know, get out amongst that traffic.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  What do you, um, this has been amazing. It's a really special conversation. I'm very conscious of your time, but just one last question from me.

• 1:17:56Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm imagining you met a lot of young indigenous people. What, what, what's your, given one thing to say to them? Like, like what's your message to, to people who look up to you? What do you say?

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Like when I meet people individually, it's always an individual message. Like I don't have one, get out there and believe in yourself. It's like, I don't.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Don't.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Why would you do that?

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  My message to, to artists was one, like I remember I did a workshop and this kid was like, oh, I want to get signed so I can make money and rah rah rah. And I was like, well, don't do music.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  You want to go get signed to be a fucking plumber?

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  And the richest blokes I know. No, but like, and I'm, and I would tell kids like, that want to work with Bad Apple's music. And me, I was like, yeah, if you've got, if you've got a money dream, be a sparky, be a plumber. You know what I mean? Get a trade. If you've got a music dream, you know, come work with, come work with us. We can do something with that.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like, but like everyone else.

• 1:19:22Speaker 00

  Don't do what I did. That's not for everybody.

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  This just feels like such a privilege to spend time with you. It really does. Um, thank you so much for coming in.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  Oh, you're welcome, guys.

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  No, really special and we appreciate you, many of the time. Would have been better if Doug was here, but unfortunately. Maybe next time we'll get Doug in here. Thanks, Bruce.

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  All good. Appreciate it.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  If you enjoyed today's episode, then you might enjoy our previous episode we did with Nazeem Hussain.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  As a dad now, I actually don't understand how someone could like kind of abandon their kid. It just seems like you're either wired that way or you're not. But I think for some people, it's probably not that. And I think it was like that for my dad.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  You can find a link to that and a link to everything else mentioned in today's episode in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.