Joe Brumm & Hamish Blake - A Bluey-print For Dads

Want can you learn from playing with a child? In today's Academy of Imperfection, Bluey creator Joe Brumm joins us (for real life), with Hamish Blake stepping in as guest host. 💌Join 8,300+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy In this episode we dig into the world of play - ”the voluntary overcoming of unnecessary obstacles”, we find out what makes a ‘good’ player and why kids' imaginative play tends to fade around age 12. Josh and Hugh take the chance to wax lyrical about their favourite Bluey episodes, Rain, Fruit Bat, Born Yesterday, The Decider (to name a few). And all three dads also share some moments of parenting shame as we discuss the constant battle for attention between our phones, and our kids. 00:00 - Hamish Blake from Rove 08:13 - Bluey, The Most Streamed TV Show of All Time 11:51 - The Best Definition of Play You've Ever Heard 21:00 - It’s All Improvising 38:02 - Permission to Pretend Again 51:20 - My Kids Wouldn’t Have The Dad They Have Without Bluey 54:00 - Doing Something Just for Fun Is a Valid Reason 58:07 - Being Present In a World of Distractions 01:22:00 - The Bluey Episode That Made a Room Full of Footballers Cry 01:27:16 - Let Them Lead and See What Happens If you want to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - https://youtu.be/eMigxjhCkcs 🫖 Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode How (and why) Ryan dumped his iphone https://bit.ly/4vi83uA 📺 Things to watch Bluey - Shadowlands https://bit.ly/4eTzKTA Bluey - Calypso https://bit.ly/3QT6NyT Bluey - Magic Xylophone https://bit.ly/4gdY057 Bluey - Born Yesterday https://bit.ly/3SvY5HA Bluey - Bin Night https://bit.ly/4gd89Pt Bluey - The decider https://bit.ly/4eHS1V4 Bluey - Faceytalk https://bit.ly/4wpWWju Bluey - Pass the parcel https://bit.ly/4gi9PXU 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcast http://apple.co/theimperfects

• 0:01Speaker 00

  I don't think my kids would have the dad that they have if Bluey wasn't around. I don't think I would have been able to recover from the mistakes I made as a parent without Bluey.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Joe Brumm, the creator of Bluey, joins us with special guest host Hamish Blake to talk about play, presence and the real impact we're having as parents.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  They're watching you and you're sort of part of their play even though you don't know it. You might not be down on the floor with them, but you're doing a pretty essential part.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  It's not so much what you're doing is like you're the game. The fact that you're there, you're the game, like for them in that moment. Little kids, that's what they'll remember. They'll remember the action of you just being involved.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  I was at the park with our mum and my son. Mum's entertaining him and I got my phone out and I just looked at it and I got a very disapproving look from mum. Then she said, when I was your age and you were his age, she said, I saw everything you saw. I smelled everything you smelled. I heard everything you heard because I was there with you fully. You're not going to get that because you're not fully there. With our attention being pulled in a thousand different directions, how do we show up for our kids in a way that is meaningful to them?

• 1:07Speaker 00

  If I am going to the toilet, the kids are like, give us your phone. Like, turn it in. And I'm like, I'll be quick. And they're like, yeah, well, let's have it.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  And welcome to today's performance of The Imperfects with Joe Brumm. Today, the part of Ryan Shelton will be played by Hamish Blake.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  So sorry to everyone expecting Ryan Shelton, but I have been understudying him for 30 years. And in true Ryan fashion, I have come with no prep and no, I feel like I should just step into the bridge perfectly.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  I feel like you've watched a lot of Bluey.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  I have watched a lot of Bluey, Joe. I've studied you for many years too. Lucky enough to be friends with you as well. So I've, I've, I've come with some prep, some prep and a keen interest. And, but can I just say, this is an honour to be guest host.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Well, it's wonderful to have you. And I think especially with today's topic, talking to Joe about Bluey and everything that comes with the extraordinary experience of what you've created, Joe. I think just to say upfront that I feel like the influence you've had on parents around the world. And then Hamish also with your How the Dad's Dad, you are also officially Father of the Year.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Good to get that.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Comment on that.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yeah, well, it's all about trophies.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  That's what it's all about.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  And also, Josh, probably my favourite dad. So to have to be having this conversation with all of you. It feels very special. But Joe, welcome. We're so excited to have you here.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks. Good to be here.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  You actually joined us on stage for our live show in Brisbane. And that was, I've got a couple of years now, I remember thinking, my gosh, this has to be an episode. It was, it was so good.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a good fun night, actually. It was, um. I mean, it's the first time I'd seen your live show, obviously. And it was once I'd finished my thing, I just went and sat in the audience and, and loved it. The Eckhart Tolle doll.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  And you know what? I think maybe I told you this, but right at the time I was writing something that was gonna be a movie, right? Like, I'm gonna write a whole new movie. But I'd gotten some advice, you know, and they were saying, listen, why don't you just write that as a TV series? You know, it makes more sense from this point of view. And I was like, okay. And I'd sort of gone along with it. And then at some point in it, I think it was your story, Josh.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I can't remember the gist of it. Basically just said, listen, you just got to do what you feel like doing, you know, what, whatever makes sense. I'm probably paraphrasing you there, but I remember walking out the night, go, I don't want to write another TV series. I want this as a movie. I want to start making movies. And now that is a movie and it's, and I love it. So yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Holy shit. Oh, my God. Josh, you're a film executive.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  The movie's shit.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Joe's going to turn you financially liable for his film.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Well, that's, that's amazing.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Oh, that is incredible.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Do we get to, I know this is not what this is about, but do we get to know what the movie is like, what field it's loosely in or?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, um, it hasn't really been announced yet, but it's for sort of 12 year olds. It's my, my goonies.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. That's so needed.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Nah, it's gonna be a lot of fun. It's sort of me and my little mates when we were 12. All that coming out in a kind of a bit of a weird setting, but, um. As long, the Bluey movie as well, that's happening over here, but this is the first new thing I've done in, um. Since Bluey.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  I actually remember the question that Josh answered on stage. I remember you messaged me then, I think it was about a week later, but the question, Josh, you answered on stage was, if you couldn't possibly fail, what would your next move be? What would your next career move be? And I think that was what prompted it. So that's exciting to know.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Wow. Yeah. I mean, for context, I tried writing music when I was younger and got humiliated at a party when someone pulled out my lyrics book and started, everyone started reading it in a circle and saying how shit it was. And then I didn't really write lyrics again after that moment for, God, 15 years, I think. And then thanks to doing the show and sharing that, I thought a vulnerable thing to do is to write a song and perform it on stage, which is what we did that night. So it was, yeah, it was a lot of fun.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  I know we're not talking about the film and that's not what we're here to do, but just because it fascinates me because I have a 12 year old myself.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  To come from the world of Bluey, which is for slightly younger kids, you know, annual ages and parents and, but, you know, it's in that world of littler kids. To then now your mind sort of turns to the next phase of childhood, like that preteen world, that 12 year old world. Is that, was that a conscious decision to sort of be growing a little bit and then delve into that world about how play, which is what we're sort of here to talk about today, but how play evolves from when you're a little kid, but then to hold on to that play and all the imagination that you have as a preteen in that world. Is that what it looks into?

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's a weird one because most play tends to subside around 12. That, that's sort of imaginative, dramatic sort of play. And no one's really sure why. One suggestion is that it's all the things that you used to imitate and recreate, you are, you are starting to be allowed to do.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  For real.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Real, you know, and so the need to recreate them and imitate them.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. You don't have to pretend, I'm off to pretend work when you're 14 and actually go to Macca's to work.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically. And it was sort of the same reason I left Bluey was my kids weren't at that age anymore. And it's like, oh, but they're at this new age. They're 12 and I remember 12. And so I just, I've wanted to just make stuff for them. I think just naturally that it's aimed at kids that are right in front of me.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause you're looking at the world through their eyes again. So you're transported back to being 12.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  And the reason there's so many books and stories and movies, you know, coming of age movies, because it's such a, it is your. You know, you wanna leave that childhood and they want to go into adulthood, but then they also wanna do these tactical retreats all the time, you know? And it's just that little crossover point. It's also quite nerve wracking. It's the first, like Bluey's just, you know, you guarantee that at least people will watch it.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? If you, if I write a Bluey movie or an episode, whereas this thing is, it's totally new and it's starting from the bottom again and it's, you have to accept it'll never be as successful as Bluey, but, and there's different reasons to do it now, if you know what I mean? I don't need to, I don't need it to pay my mortgage. So I'm making it because I just love making things.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Totally. So, so one of the great joys I have with this job is I get to write people's bios. And I thoroughly enjoyed writing this show, I have to say. I read it to my, I've never done this before, but I read it to my six year old daughter yesterday just to get her thoughts on it. And she said, it's pretty boring. So it didn't pass all these tests, but.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And I just had to stick with it.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  So here we go. This is it. So in seven minute installments, Joe Brumm is responsible for the laughter and joy of millions of people around the world. As the number one streamed television series of all time, in 2025, Bluey was watched in the US for a total of 45.2 billion minutes. Growing up in Queensland, Joe graduated with a Bachelor of Animation in 1998 before spending over 10 years in the UK, working as a lead animator on successful children's shows such as Charlie and Lola and Peppa Pig. In 2009, after moving back to Brisbane and founding his own animation studio, Studio Joe, Joe began assembling his own team. In 2016, the pilot of Bluey was launched. Two years later, Bluey premiered on the ABC. When Bluey first appeared on our screens, most of us thought it was a show for kids.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  What we didn't realise that it was also quietly becoming a show for mums and dads. A show that would make exhausted parents feel seen. A show that would reassure us that we're not ruining our children every time we get it wrong. A show that would remind us that presence and play matters whilst reminding us that this time in our lives is precious and fleeting. All over the world, there are parents who are a little more playful, a little more patient and a little more connected to their children because it's something that you have created, Joe. And even more importantly, there are children who will grow up feeling deeply loved because the adults in their lives learnt something from a little blue dog. And that's an extraordinary legacy.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  How does that last bit land on you? I'm just interested to know as someone who has never ever sought the limelight or recognition or fame, hearing that impact that you've had on people around the world, how does that land on you?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, um, it feels good. It feels like an important area to have affected, kind of positively, I suppose. I feel like Bluey maybe, maybe just made it a bit easy to give permission for a lot of people to do probably what they felt was coming natural to them, you know, as we in our generation.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  I mean, you, you, you, you mentioned there that like you felt like it gave people permission to maybe do what was coming naturally. I would say there's another quite large category of parents who

• 10:14Speaker 00

  were less, way less cognizant than that, who were like, it was almost not a rule book, but it, but it's a huge inspiration to go, oh, wow, this wasn't the way that I was parented. But it's something I would love to try. But maybe, I think there's a large amount of eye opening to, to go, this would be, this is the kind of thing that I was wanting to do, but I didn't really have anyone showing me a concrete example of being playful and joyful and a bit messy and imaginative and silly with the kids. So I think that's a huge legacy of Bluey as well.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think, um, if, if that is, if that's even a little bit of that's the legacy of Bluey, then I think that's, it's been worth all the effort, you know?

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, I actually wonder if it's worth us, for the couple of people in the world who haven't seen Bluey, I'm just explaining a bit of the basics, just in case we go into a few of the, um, episodes today, when I'm sure we will. So you've got, they're a family of Blue Heelers, they live in Brisbane, uh, and there is Bluey, who's seven, she's got a little sister called Bingo, who's four, and then there's the parents, um, Bandit and Chili, and then there's a whole range of other incredible characters that I'm, I'm sure we'll get into as we talk about, um, all sorts of things today.

• 11:31Speaker 00

  So just, I mean, we're about to talk about play, obviously, but what's the definition that you kind of go by with Bluey?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Well, a good definition of play I read, and I'm pretty sure I've got this right, was a play is the voluntary overcoming of unnecessary obstacles.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Oh, I like that. Really good.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, skill because it's, and it's, it's sort of similar in sport, you know what I mean? Like we put a net on a tennis court.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, you have to have an obstacle.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, otherwise there's no fun.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. This is this whole thing of problems, right? It's so much of the enjoyment of it is it's a problem that needs to be overcome. So play is just one of those situations where you, you all decide, look, let's, let's put some problems in our, in our way and let's all try and overcome them.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  I love the definition of prob, like, that definition is amazing. The unnecessary bit is especially good. But the, I love bringing in problems as a way of viewing creativity because I've, throughout my life, I've been quite daunted by the idea of creativity, that I'm not good enough creatively compared to other people. But for me, and I think this, I hope this might resonate with some people who don't necessarily see themselves as creative, that already solved so many problems in their life. And I kind of like the idea of creating a problem that I have to solve.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  And then the enjoyment of solving it creative creatively is, is sort of the special source. But I, I, I love the idea of reframing creativity as a problem.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  To be solved.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Well, even I suppose like a lot of adult play is solving problems. Like, well, sports, I suppose that you play it here. I mean, I don't want to talk too much about golf, but that seems to be the definition of golf. Well, we've created a problem, which is it's a very small ball and it's impossible to hit it. And if you get it once, you can never repeat it again.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  And the hole is really far away.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Hole's really far away. And so small. Go, go, go. And no one's ever mastered this. So good luck.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  And you've got four strokes to get it. Otherwise we start penalizing.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  You get, you get very few chances and then everyone will start teasing you. So have a great day.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  But that episode Shadowlands was sort of poking at that, you know, it's like you can keep taking these problems out and then the game just feels flat.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. If you get free passes or people get superpowers, then what are we doing here?

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. In that episode, for those who haven't seen it, there's a, they can only stand where the shadows are in the park and they're trying to get back to where the mums have made cupcakes. And they seem to be at a point where it's impossible to get there because the sun has shiny light in front of them. And one of the characters said, I think maybe it's okay this time if we just ignore it and we just cheat. And I very go very close to it. And I said, no, no, but we have to stick to the rules. The rules are rules. And then, and then an opportunity appears, the clouds come over and yeah, it, it, it's the most exciting part of the game when I overcome the obstacle and I stick to the rules.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  I suppose it is just like, any satisfaction in life comes from play included, comes from overcoming an obstacle. Play is a fun way to do it. And I, maybe that is a part, I don't know, I'd love your thoughts, but is that in terms like the rehearsal part of play? Cause you're rehearsing for real life by playing shops or playing whatever, playing mums and dads. You're rehearsing really? And you need, you need obstacles to have any kind of satisfaction after, after doing it?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, like play theories since the late 1700s, they've, they've all tried to figure out why kids do it, you know, why they do these social things. One theory is it's a rehearsal and they're practicing things that they're going to need to use. And one dude thought it was all humans lived through every evolutionary state of our prehistory, you know? So kids would play hunter gatherer and all this. That one was sort of discounted. Others, the, once Freud came along, the psychoanalytical people, like, well, this is all internal desires and it's this and that. So I don't know why we do it. And, but I do think there's something important about the voluntary aspect of it, right? Because we've got actual problems when you grow up, you have to pay your mortgage and no one just gives you money for free, if you know what I mean? So.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  You could argue those problems.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  They don't feel like fun.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  It's going, oh, what a fun, that's so nice of the bank to give me this fun problem I have to solve every month.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  What a playful time.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  So when we choose in our free time to recreate the same.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Issues. And that's why, you know, like the MMOs, like massive online role playing games, right? Like The Grind. So people, this is your free time now. You've been at work all day. Now it's your free time and you're choosing it to be mining, you know, arcanite or whatever. And it, this, if I look over your shoulder, this looks a hell of a lot like a, a job, you know?

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. There are people, the Pilbara that do this. They get paid.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  But, but yet you're choosing to do it voluntarily, you know? So there's obviously something about choosing your problems, you know, that, that suddenly it makes fun. I, I don't know the answer to anything. I find it really fascinating.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, spot on.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Cause it's obviously, I mean, you're, I know you're interested in the science behind play as well. Um, I just wrote two notes to myself here as far as what I feel like.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Why play is so incredibly powerful for a child or for anyone I, and, and I feel like this is what, to Hamish's point, this is kind of like what Bluey has shown parents. And I feel it's a bit stereotyped to sad dads, but that's how it feels to me. Um, the two main things I think we get from play are the first one is that it helps children to feel loved. I feel like when they're asking you to get on the floor with them and play, they're not asking for a performance. They're not asking to be entertained. They're asking for connection through attention. So I guess the first thing that I've, I've taken from Bluey. And the second one is actually for adults. I feel like play helps adults to feel alive. So like when Bandit drops everything, he gets on the floor with the girls.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Like he's instantly connected to things like wonder and creativity and silliness and joy, which I think for a lot of us, that stuff is buried beneath emails and mortgages and all those kinds of things.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's interesting. It's because when you do get down on the floor, that all the, like, it's hard to do, right? It's like I used to do, oh, I still do, but I used to do those big, long meditation courses, right? And you've got 10 days and your knees are hurting. And the only way I ever found to get through it was if you, if I kept thinking, ah, God, if I can get through this session, then there's another eight hours today. And then this is day two, like this, I can't, you know, it was just, you'd have to go, listen, you can't think about how long you got left. You've just got to sit down and do what you meant to do.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Do this minute well.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Do this minute well.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  To me, it's pretty similar back when you used to get on the floor and play at four in the morning, the 10th game of, you know, whatever it was, you know, shops with your kids, you would, all you'd want to do is reach for your phone or all I'd want to do, sorry, is reach my phone or think, okay.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  I think you can say we there. I think we's okay.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, Joe. That's so shameful. I would never think about a text. I would never acknowledge a buzz in my possible.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  The buzz is the worst because you feel it. You're just like, that could be it.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Just get through this 10 seconds of not reaching for your phone.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  It was so, I don't know. It's kind of like a, it's almost like a little spiritual exercise where you just have to say, look, do not think about when this ends. Just get fully absorbed in this little crazy scenario. And then I would enjoy it. And, you know, I guess as an animator, I do have a pretty active imagination and that would help because, you know, the kids, when kids play together, they, they need the other kid to feedback, right? So you often would start a conversation. I was quite, you know, like Monty Python and stuff. So I was, I was quite good at coming up with bizarre things that they had to then incorporate into their game. And as soon as you're locked in one of those and it's a back and forth.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  So fun.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, then you can get lost in it.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Is playing at its heart, it's almost like jazz improvising, right? Like in the, in the best kind of play, it is improvising with each other, like.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  You start off with a loose structure of, okay, we're playing schools. That's a big one. I I have to attend my daughter's school a lot. But done well, it develops into something where you are improvising off each other. And that's kind of whatever that magic is in the human brain and heart that lights us up when something happened out of nothing.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's a really good explanation of it. It's it's a group activity. So I say with kids, right? Leave the parents out of it, but with with group of four kids playing school. It's a group activity. It takes more than one kid, right? To have this particular type of play, but it's all individual pursuit. Every kid brings their little narrative to it. This school, I'm not doing too well, and so I get keep putting in tension. And the teacher says, okay, cool, Johnny, you're in detention and play and bounces off that. If if the kid isn't bringing a narrative, it's just standing around, they'll get booted. It's really harsh, but you know, your input's required. It's great. And it's when all those things weave together that, yeah, you you suddenly

• 20:55Speaker 02

  you're in this place, you've created a little story which you had no idea. Like you say, the basic setting is their school, but you'll find this plot evolves and everyone bounces off it. And sometimes they need to stick and move. And sometimes someone will have to suddenly change roles, you know. Actually, we need you to be a kid. Yeah, okay, I'm a kid. Suddenly just you've turned that corner. So it it does work on memory, but it's it is imagination. So the sort of poorer players from from everything I've read, they'll just bring memory in, right? And they go, right, my mom acts like this, therefore all mums act like this.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Whereas other kids, the sort of better players, they bring memory in, then they engage their imagination. Right? What's if my mom was like this, what would she do in this situation? So in in doing that, so many things come out of the kids. Cooperation, sort of coordination, mental discipline, concentration and a kind of a goodwill. And Goodwill to everyone having their say. And by the end of it, you know, that kid experiences the world as welcoming. They they experience themselves as creative beings and they experience the world as receptive to their input, which is probably one of the most magic things I sort of learnt in the course of all this. Sometimes I see people in meetings and they're scared to say, to put their two cents in, right? Because they haven't experienced the world as receptive

• 22:13Speaker 02

  to their their input.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Whereas so interesting. It gives them a self belief.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  That's what I've got to say counts.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yep. And and contributes to this little scene and is welcomed. And, you know, so that kid's doing that day in and day out, I think is pretty good for him.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  I I also imagine that if you, not just that what I have to say is welcome, but it's also not make or break, I would assume.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  I guess in play, it changes so quickly from like, we were doing this to now the now the phone is a telescope because someone came up with this new idea or something doesn't work and they don't like that. But then if they come up with something two minutes later, that's actually a microscope and they like that. It's like, not every suggestion is make or break.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  I'm a bad person. All that kind of stuff that starts to creep in.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And and in poorer players, it does creep in. Criticism takes the form of it's like personal criticism, you know, it's like this, um, you know, you're not playing properly because you're an idiot, right? Whereas in the better players, the criticism is there just as, well, you're not adhering to this theme, you know, this this mutual thing we're trying to create. And so it's not a personal criticism. It's just, look, listen, telephones aren't, you know, they don't work like that. You have to have them. You can walk around with telephones, whatever.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Um, so, yeah, the the you never feel it with good players, the kids never feel like picked on for coming up with something that doesn't fit the narrative.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  It's interesting to hear you use the term like, you know, poorer players or more adept players. Is there something that you've encountered that makes kids become better players or conditions that facilitate the development of sort of good, healthy play as opposed to restrict it?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Well, not from my personal experience. I haven't sort of watched it because it's a hard thing to to watch, right? It's you sort of need to be there. You need to then know the backgrounds of kids and stuff like that. But definitely from books that I've read, there there is a correlation between the kid's home life.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Whether that's quite an authoritarian household or this sort of stuff, and that kid's behaviour while they play.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  The freedom to play.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Freedom to play, their play styles, their their ability to to use abstract objects, you know, that's like in that episode Typewriter, it's like some poorer players, they need an actual typewriter if they're a writer in this game. Yeah, and and that was the subject of one of these books. It was how do we facilitate play, you know, and they tried a few different methods. They're like, right, should we take the kids round to these, you know, because so much is imitative. So so we make sure we take them to shops and take them to museums and then that'll inform their play. That didn't have much of an effect. What affected it the most was just a teacher there. Obviously, once you've provided all the sort

• 25:04Speaker 02

  of raw materials and space, was a teacher there just taking the lightest touch, kind of the opposite of Bandit really, but taking the lightest touch of if a if a like a conflict was threatening to, you know, the the teacher may arbitrate. But look, people, I I've this is from reading a couple of books, I don't know, which is all my.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  But I'm sure there are people listening going, um, what can I do? I want my kids to be to have a great imagination. And is is is it just sort of, you know, put the raw materials in front of them and and know that the human brain is curious?

• 25:40Speaker 02

  I think if you're if you're sitting there and you're having that thought, I'd say your kid is already got a good imagination.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. If you're conscious enough to be thinking that.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  There's two, um, two bluish things that I from the show that I think is so relevant to what you're talking about there. Um, and I feel like a Calypso, the uh, can is it kindergarten teacher, school teacher?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Kindergarten, yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  School.

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Um, I think any episode where she's in it, you see that light touch, exactly what you're talking about, that framework around play is just beautiful. But the thing I that was more pressing to me in this discussion that I've found to be a really inspiring. Example is, and I can't remember the name of the episode, but it's the octopus where they're running behind the back of the couch.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  And Bandit's been playing with Bluey at home and Bluey's friend. And it's crazy and it's wild and it's this sort of erratic game. They're so much fun. And then the child, the child, the dog, who is a, a.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Was he a Labrador?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Dalmatian.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Dalmatian.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, close.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Too much doing breed analysis. I think it proves I've seen it.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  The, the Dalmatian character goes home to their dad and their dad is very straight down the line, very sensible person and can't play the same crazy game. But by the end of the episode, they've worked out a way of playing that's very sort of scientific, very by the rules and they've established their own rules. And you see this incredible connection develop between the father and the child.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  His way, his way to do it.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  His way to do it. And I find that so inspiring that you don't have to copy what you see. You've got to find your own way that works for you and your child. It was, it's beautiful.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and within a group of kids, every kid's going to come in with their own sort of proclivities. And, and that's what kids learn is that they're like, okay, well this kid has this sort of interest, you know, and they just, the game just moulds around it. You know, it's not like everyone has to be this personality type for this game to work. You just have to be, uh, it seems to be the rules are you just have to take part. And you gotta, you, you have to adhere to the theme of the game being played. You can't just come in and say, right, actually we're doing this, you know?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  The more I think about it just now in this moment, but play is, it teaches us so, so many of the most important skills we have as adults, I think. So I was, Josh's son, Charlie was at our place the other day. And so I had Charlie, who's six, I had my youngest son who's three, and I had our eldest son who's nine. And we're all playing together and we're playing Star Wars. And we all had a lightsaber. I filmed the whole thing. I can show you guys later if you're on, it's only 10 minutes. And we had this scripted lightsaber battle. And so. Charlie and my eldest were Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  And asked Darth Vader. And then we couldn't think of another evil character for my three year old to be that would have a lightsaber. So he was little Darth Vader. And so, and they scripted it. So they had music playing. So we had the stars and we scripted it. So we bumped into each other in the hallway. And there's a few lines that we had back and forth. And it was, we had it going. And every time we started, my three year old, he didn't know what was going on, would turn around and strike me down.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  And at first I could see the frustration, see the frustration of Charlie and my oldest Benji going, what the fuck? This is not, you know, why would little Darth Vader kill big Darth Vader?

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Probably would though.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  He obviously knows the rules of the Sith. The dark side, they don't, they don't care. Yeah. Yeah. One has to usurp the other at some point.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  You gotta join that team. That's what's gonna happen.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Anyway, the frustration on Charlie and Benji's face is quite evident. And we tried it a few times. We explained to him and said, no, you're on daddy's team. So you don't kill him. And he'd go, okay. And we'd start again, he'd turn and go, ah, and cut me in half. And in the end, it was like this, they decided to tolerate it. And then they were flexible with it. So I said, okay, so big Darth Vader dies. So now, but you only die for five minutes. And then you come back and then you kill all of us. And so that became, but that was so, that they had to tolerate what wasn't perfect.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  And there's a three year old.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  There was the three year old who was ruining everything. He didn't know what's going on. But then the six and the nine year old had to tolerate it and be tolerant. And then I had to come up with a new plan and be flexible. And I just think that's so much of life, really.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  It is. But if you weren't around, that three year old would be ejected from that game.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Or slay everyone.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Have to catch him first.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  It's an interesting one because it's like, so much of what we're talking about is kids playing. But if the rules hold for adults playing, it's just that adults don't play much. We don't find ourselves in a scenario where we do this as much, I think, as we should, where you have the same rules. Where it's like, all right, let's just imagine that this is happening and then, you know.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  No, you're right. Probably the closest that adults get is role playing games.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Pen and paper role playing games.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that's why everyone loves like a night where you're playing mafia or Dungeons and Dragons or just. You have to, there's an industry around it because you kind of have to, I don't know, have some structure to say to parents or grownups, hey, it's okay to play here.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  Like, my wife and I, like, we host the occasional party and we made a rule years ago to be like, let's never do a party that's not dress up. Because what's the, why, it's so much more fun if there's a theme. Because everyone comes and plays, like, to some extent adopts a character. But there's a real atmosphere in the room because you don't get to do that as grownups very often.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's a big part of kids play, right? They cost the costume.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Because it's sort of like, you just need a little thing to break the seal and you have permission.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  And then there, I think there is, under the surface, a desire to play for people.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, there definitely is. We've got this thing at the moment. I thought sort of play had left our family because, you know, our eldest now is 15. And my niece is now, the youngest is, um, probably nine. But then there's this little five-year-old boy in there who's just sort of turned up, you know? And, do you know him?

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  No, it seems like a lot of fun.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  We gave him a name. Nah, so he's my, he's the one boy in the whole, um, six, so six girls, all my brother's daughters, and then one boy. And so he has introduced Nerf.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  To our line.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  I've just come off a big weekend in Nerf.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Me and my brothers, we'd just go, why didn't we, this is the biggest parenting hack. Because we used to love Plan War.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  And so now we've got, um, the six girls, they all want to be on their teams. They're, they're the ladies. And then the four boys, me and my brothers and Jack. Jack just thinks he's died and gone to heaven. We're called the Wolf Pack and we just, we take over each of our houses, you know, every few weekends and then just blow the shit out of each other for three hours. And you keep fit and there's strategy, the kids learnt, Jack's learnt like call signs now.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Hand movements and stuff. Isn't it funny where you're like, if you broke that down and you're like, all right, what's going on in these games? It's like the structure's there, it's completely improvised because you either get a bullet in the head or not. And you're constantly doing trade offs about, do I use ammunition, do I not? Like, am I vulnerable? And there's adrenaline to it.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  A heap of adrenaline because it feels risky, but it's so not.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  You're pumped with adrenaline. But I think too, it's that, it's the, I don't know, it's kind of magic. In the same way like a water fight is or whatever, it's that it's battling, but with, but a cartoon version of it. I don't know, I think before I became a parent, I thought there would be heaps of opportunities to do things like this. I thought there'd be like a, oh, there'd be a new game every day. But when you find one that works, it actually, there's less than you think and you do hold on to them, I reckon, like.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Oh, definitely. Yep. And this one, you know, everyone's older now, so it requires less of the imagination. There's no story to this really.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  But it's still play.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  It's still play, it still has all the rules, right? Especially the six year old, right? It's like, cause there's an honor system, like, listen, if someone says you got hit and you gotta, you've been hit.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  But nah, I got my gun, blah, blah, blah, like, well, I had a real life blui moment. It was one of the first steps we did was Magic Xylophone where Bandit's frozen and he's got the feather boa on and he looks a fool. And he's out in the front yard and just a random passerby walks past and just gives him a look and, you know.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  And me and my little nephew, I'd park the car down for an extra, like in front of the street. And we would cover them, we were yelling instructions to each other and shooting and just some woman walked past with her stroll.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Everything's funny, we have a permit for this.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  We know the people in this house.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  I, um, I was just gonna say on that, I, I had a similar experience when we do, um, water, like, you can get these silicon reusable water balloons now. They're like two cups that cup together, they're awesome. And so we bought a bunch of them and some water pistols and in summer had a massive. Water fight and I live on the corner. So I had snuck out with like, I'd loaded up heaps of water balloons and pistols and it started like hoarding them on the outside of the property with a low, we've got like a one metre high fence.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  And then I sort of commander crawled around so the kids couldn't see me to get round to the front into a hidden position with about 20 water balloons. I'd loaded up, ready to go. And then a guy started walking down the street and I was like lying, lying hidden underneath the fence with them all on me like, looking at Rambo. And the guy was walking down and the kids are on the other side of the fence. And he looked at me and looked at the kids and they, and he said, where's your old man?

• 35:33Speaker 02

  And they're like, oh, that's good.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  I don't know. He's like, yeah, he's not out here. And then he gave me a little high five. He's walking past.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  That's so good.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  I made the fence.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I, I loved it. And I felt like for a lot of men, it's hard to, I think it's hard to play.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  And they find it very hard to join in and play. But this guy seemed desperate to join in.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  And I wondered if you had any insight on what it is that stops men from committing to play?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that's a public thing. Yeah, I don't know. Like, other than it's just physically difficult to, I think, to stay undistracted, you know, and you, and you have to when you're playing these kids. And it is, you know, there's a mundane element to it. Other kids, it like plays for other kids, right? Like they don't have, they, there's just, it's joyful for them to.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  It's a natural state.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  And we do grow out of that and we become conditioned and we, we've seen, you know, it's like the Born Yesterday episode, right? It's like we've seen leaves, you know, we, and, and even my kids now, I, I can, you can chart the things that used to blow their mind.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, just to, to, just to jump in here for people who haven't seen the episode Born Yesterday. I actually watched it with my father on yesterday, who's a professor of public health and listened to his feedback on it was, most people go, oh, amazing episode. He said, it's just born of a brilliant hypothesis, this episode. The thesis here is, and it was terrific, his breakdown of it. But, but essentially it's, the kids say, well, they learned the phrase, I wasn't born yesterday. And then they come up with the idea to Bandit, well, let's play Born Yesterday and you have to pretend you were born yesterday. And he rediscovers.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  The beauty that surrounds him everywhere. Um. And and it's so funny, like so unbelievably funny. But just for those who don't know.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he's forced into actually looking at things afresh again, you know, and it it is quite. Uh. I can see it in my kids now. They're they're not, they're not fascinated by things, you know. When I come home now, that it's only the dog that runs up to to greet me now, you know, and it's all good. But to answer your question, yes, we get older, it's just, we we have to, um. I don't know, move away from that state of just ease.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Would it be, maybe it's, I mean, they probably share a similar trait here where it's like, it's almost like we get embarrassed by wonder as we get older. I reckon that's that teenage thing to be like, well, I'm not going to be fascinated by a leaf because I don't want people to think I've never seen a leaf. Like, I think society sort of tells you to not be, not be in awe anymore. Like, it's not cool to be in awe and you have to know what's going on. Like, so much being teenagers pretending you know what is going on all the time. You've got no fucking idea what's going on. So, like, he's been a good, I've had a good 10 years of my life just squinting into the distance and pretending I knew what was going on while a cyclone of insecurity and questioning raged inside me.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you'd, and then maybe you get into adulthood, it's that same thing where you're like, all right, well, I'll just pretend to not be into things or not not be in awe. But playing is giving you permission to go back into being excited and curious about things.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh. That's a great analysis, actually. You do. And enthusiasm isn't cool at that age, too.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Which is heartbreaking to watch, but of course we all went through it.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is heartbreaking, actually. Like, being smart isn't cool and everything you you want your kids to be.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  And everything wish you could tell them, hey, by the time you're 25.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  This is all you'll wish you held on to, is your uniqueness, your curiosity, all the things that make you special.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Please don't squash them.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it will no longer be cool at 25 and 35 and 45.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  To not care.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  To not care, not be, you know, um enthusiastic. And maybe, I I did find having kids, uh. Kind of put that period of my life to bed.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  You know, you Does he care again?

• 39:27Speaker 02

  You care again, you instantly daggy, no one's, you know, you're, you're just not cool anymore. And, and so you did have freedom too.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  It's crazy. I don't know how I kept it.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  It's kind of great. I love it. Not having to be cool.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  No, it's great. I mean, I never, can't say it was ever a big burden for me to carry. I don't think I was ever that cool.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  I don't miss what I never experienced, but yeah, at least the, it's like now, now knowing I'll probably never play professional sports. Probably wasn't ever on the cards, but now we know for sure.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  You've run the experiment.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  This is a bit self indulgent, but I feel like at some point in this chat, I have to discuss my favorite episode of Bluey, which I'm sure everyone wants to do to you when they meet you. But I, I just, for me, it's the episode rain, which I have felt for quite a while is, and I've mentioned this before, that you get all the stuff when you have a child from a hospital. But I feel like for me personally, they should give you the episode rain to watch as well. Rain is an episode where, um, Bluey keeps on, it's raining outside. Bluey is creating her own game with the rain, trying to dam it up, dam it up across the path. Uh, and she's going in and out of the house and Chili is trying to wipe her footprints.

• 40:46Speaker 03

  She's trying to give her a towel to stay dry. She's trying to impose, give her an umbrella. And I see myself in Chili, so much Chili being the mum of trying to just be like, oh God, I'm going to have to clean this up afterwards. Trying to, trying to sanitize the game and not just stopping to see what's actually happening. And by the end of the episode, Chili has not only stopped to see what Bluey's doing, but ends up participating. And they have this beautiful moment. It reminds me what, that the most important thing for me as a parent is to, to stop and just meet the child where they're at. And you might discover the most amazing moment of your day. But if you keep trying to impose your own shit on them, you'll miss it all.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Very similar experiences in my life that brought that up about just dropping, kind of just giving up and surrendering.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  As soon as I would, I don't know, you just feel that internal resistance and that this, this should be going down this road. You know, there should be kids at this age is meant to be doing this and should be doing that. And then. You just realise that it doesn't matter what.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  I can't tell this kid to do this. They're just doing this at the moment, you know? This is how they are. And as soon as, I don't know, it's like you just, um, it's like a feeling of, of, uh, I don't know, letting go of something.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I suppose it's that feeling where you go, this imposition of rules isn't doing anything for either of us.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Not keeping the house clean and they're not turning around going, oh God, thanks for writing me in there. I was having way too much fun.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  But like I, my own, my own tiny little version of that was like, remember like we moved into a new house about four years ago and the kids were still in bath age and there was splash water all over the floors. And maybe because I'm like, oh, this is a brand new bathroom and there's tiles. I'll be like, guys, guys, guys, look at the floor. Like you're getting the bathroom so wet. And I was just like, what am I talking about? It's tiles. But it wasn't in the moment. It was like.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  A year later.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Where it would happen again, but and I get annoyed, but guys, there's a, look at this. There's a huge problem. Did you not notice this was happening? And afterwards I'm like, what? What a pointless thing to care about. It's a tile. They're not dissolvable if they are. We picked the wrong tiles. But, but at the same time, it's like, why step in and, and enforce something on those kids who are having, you know, one of the funnest times you can have in your life, which is sliding back and forth in the bath.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. If there's no danger. And, and it came because me and my brothers, we used to have, um, up in Cairns when we were kids, we had one boxing gloves, one set of boxing gloves. So we'd put one on each, right?

• 43:27Speaker 00

  I can see the link.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  And pound the crap out of each other in the front room there. And there was this pot plant in a cane thing near the door. And like, once a week, we would knock it over on white carpet thing there. Mum would come out. And back when you could hit your kids, she'd line us up on the, the rhubarb of the Ford Falcon and give us the feather duster, right? Which, you know, it wasn't properly hitting, but it was just.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  The boxing glove of sticks.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  It's got padding.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  It was, it was bright pink. So the whole thing was sort of a.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Ceremony.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. But it was, you know, you knew you're in trouble. And years later, I said, mum, you know, how important to you was that pot plant by the front door? Because it, it, we lived in fear of knocking it over, but we would knock it over once a week and the whole, you know. Thing would just repeat. I said, why did you just move it out? Five years, just move it out. She said, yeah, probably should have.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  And.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Cause we're in our ways, like we, and I suppose just, you know, you're trying to exercise a tiny bit of control.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Over the world.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  I, I think at the end of the day, and that's why I like rain, cause it's, it's a rhetorical question, right? It came from, you know, um, it's just, you, you can't like, it's, you can't stop water from damming. No matter how build you, could you build that little dam in the gutter? It's like water always gonna get through. And it was sort of like that with the kids. It's like, yes, three boys, you, you, they should follow what you do. They should, you know, but it's like, we also, you can't stop us trying to beat the shit out of each other. For whatever reason, at that age, it was, you may as well have been trying to dam up something.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  So, so better to facilitate that.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, thanks for mentioning that. That's where that app came from.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a cracker. Yeah, thank you.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  I love the inspiration behind that. I'm also keen to hear the inspiration behind Fruitbat. So Fruitbat essentially is, um, Bluey decides that she would love to be a fruit bat because I don't have to sleep at night. And before she goes to bed that night, she sees Bandit, um, he's on the ground and he's having a dream that he's playing touch footy with his mates. Um, and I've never known if he was actually asleep or he was pretending to be asleep to make her laugh. I wasn't sure, but.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no, he's asleep.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Yeah, it's very good. Um, and so then, and then she has a dream that she's a fruit bat. And then she flies over, um, Bandit, who's actually playing in, in the dream, is playing touch footy with his mates. And in the morning, when she comes downstairs, he's doing sit ups to prepare himself, you know, himself for one day when he can actually have time and space to pick up his hobbies again. Um, and it's an episode about sacrifice. And I have to say, every time I watch that, I feel guilty, I feel really guilty. Um, and I, I didn't quite understand where my guilt came from. At surface level, I thought, maybe I haven't sacrificed enough of my running. Like I still run all the time. I don't miss many training sessions. And I thought, gosh, maybe I'm not sacrificing enough.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  The other day I watched it and I saw Chili sitting on the couch and she's taping up her hockey stick. And it made me think of Penny and it made me think about, um, my guilt comes from the fact that Penny has sacrificed so much. For us to have kids, to have three kids, um, we didn't realise we're going to have the extra challenges attached to parenthood that, that, our particular version of parenthood. Penny is so focused on her career where she was and she just hasn't been able to for the last nine years. And I've realised, um. The guilt I feel when I watch that is that, and I think this is a case for so many people, not just mums or dads, but. You do give up a lot and you do sacrifice a lot and you're sort of waiting, you know, you're taping up your hockey stick or you're doing sit-ups to be ready at some point when it's your turn again.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  But I think a lot of my guilt is that Penny, um, has, has, we've tried everything, but you know, schools will still call her when something's gone wrong or. Appointments, um, even though we'll leave my number and they'd always find her number and she's going to fill out the form and she sacrificed a lot for our family and I, um. Yeah, it's a brilliant episode again.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I never thought, yeah, I never, um.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Thought the, that, yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I never thought about that when I was reading it. That's why I like Chili taping her hockey stick up. She obviously doesn't get to play, you know, as much as she wanted to, but. Yeah, it's a war zone and it's not always even, is it? You know, um, we went through a similar sort of thing with, with Sues.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  The bit I love about that app is that they, it's, they, they meet in their dream, you know, and. And Bandit's totally okay with the sacrifice, but it's like both of them, you know, well, there's no resentment to the kids, you know what I mean? And it's, it's just this thought of, you know, I'll get back there one day, but for now this is, this is what I'm doing and this is your important to me and.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a, um.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  And then it does change now. My kids are older. It's like all those things come back. And for my wife, all the things she wants to do has come back and she's discovered painting. And so her life's changed. But yeah, while it was happening, it was a war zone. All right.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  I just have this, uh, there's two images of my head and I, I feel like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Josh, but I feel like you have been very inspired by Bandit.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  Um, absolutely.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  The, the, the image I have in my head is you very hungover on a trampoline at home with four kids in a circle, playing Ring of Ring of Roses, like so hungover. And then they became fixated on, on trying to take your pants off.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  And you were just, I've never seen a more hungover man deal with that.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  But you, but you kept playing, you kept, you were trying to hang on to your pants, but you're also, the, the game kept moving despite how hungover you were. And then I remember soon after that at your place, going down to the pizza, to get pizza down the road. And you were carrying two of the kids and the other two decided they wanted to be carried as well. One of them being my, that, at that time, seven year old son. And all of a sudden I was walking behind you and I had this, I was very emotional because I had this incredible, I'll never forget silhouette of you in front of me. Like holding four kids, um, at great, um, it was incredibly difficult to do, but you just kept doing it because it's what they wanted to do. And they were loving that experience. And it was, it was very moving to watch because I was like, God, you are such an amazing dad. And I know you've got such huge inspiration from Bandit.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Um, as not even a question, I wanted to say it in front of Joe, basically.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  Well, to put, yeah, I mean, my back's never been the same since I did that run down the street with those four kids. It's genuinely.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even do one.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  It's wrecked my back forever, but it was worth it for, for the joy it gave you and meant. Yeah. My back was going to be ruined at one point anyway. Um, no, I think it's, um, I think it's important for me to say to you and, and everyone who has made Bluey, that I don't think my kids would have the dad that they have if Bluey wasn't around. I think, um, I. I was one of those people that I think I was always looking forward to being a dad and really excited about it. But as we all know, as dads, you don't get any kind of handbook on how to do it. You get all that information about birth and the breastfeeding triad and

• 50:41Speaker 03

  all that kind of stuff that the hospital gives you. But then, when it, when all that initial shine of the new child wears off, you're kind of on your own and terrified and stressed. And I think that the amount of times that I have not only bonded with them, just watching Bluey, but I've been lying in bed thinking, you stuffed up today. I reacted poorly. Or I, um, there's a, this is very shameful to admit, but there's a, um, on our kitchen table at home, there's an outline of scissors from when I was like trying to balance, I was so exhausted. And one of my children had already tipped over, like so many things wrecked, so many things. I got them a glass of water and they just looked

• 51:26Speaker 03

  at me and tipped it on the ground again. And I had this in my hand and I smashed it on the table and yelled at them. And I feel like I see that outline in the table as a reminder of the mistake I made as a parent every day when I have dinner. And I'll never forget the look on their face. It was like they, because I was two and a half, three at the time. And I hadn't gotten through to them. And I got through to them out of fear. And it was the worst feeling I've ever felt because they felt scared of me for a moment because of what I did. But then I lie in bed thinking about what could I do better the next day? And I honestly think, what would, how would Bandit roll? Like, what would he do the next day? And it gives me the energy to think of a game. And before

• 52:08Speaker 03

  I know it, me and that boy who was scared of me, looks at me with, like the other day, we played and I had to go. And then I left the house and he opened the door and chased after me and hugged me and said, I love you, dad. And it was one of those, I'll never forget that look. And I don't think I would have been able to recover from the mistakes I made as a parent without Bluey. So, thank you.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, much appreciated. Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Gosh, it's, um.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's, I don't, I don't know what to do with things like that, you know, it's, it was just, it's a byproduct of, of me just putting my life, you know, into a cartoon and, and tried to be as honest as possible and as forgiving as possible, I suppose, of myself and that, and, you know, I can guarantee you, I've, I've can tell you three or four stories exactly like that with my kids. It's, it's, it's overwhelming to hear things like that. I must have to keep it at bay. And I do think, I don't know, I'm better at drawing pictures than words in these situations.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Well, maybe you don't need to respond to it.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  I'll take a picture.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  I really appreciate that.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  I think, I think you, I think you do a great job of,

• 53:20Speaker 00

  you know, I know it's obviously it's a huge, to hear things like this and you must hear it a lot, but it connects with people so, so deeply. It's such a beacon for people who want to be better. I think, I think what Bandit has taught a lot of dads and Chili as well, I love Chili.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  I think as a, as a parent figures, they, I think they reinforce something that I hold dear, but I think they reinforce the idea that doing something just for fun is a really valid reason to do something. You should do things just for fun because there's joy in it. And like, that's it, full stop. Just do something for fun because fun is how we connect, enjoys how we connect. And what you said before, Hugh, I thought was so pertinent to like its connection through attention. Joy is just so pure. Like doing things just for fun is just such a pure reason to do things. And I think that's what parents find when they're inspired by Bluey. And that's the connection that, and it feels priceless to us as parents because we're like,

• 54:23Speaker 00

  ah, this is what I was after. Just something simple and joyful. That's what we want to have with our kids. We want that connection through, through joy and doing something just for fun.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  I, I, I agree with that. I think, um, my, this researcher really like, you know, he's saying all the benefits of these kids at play. And he just says, I remember one, he just says, It just seems intrinsically joyful to them. And he didn't have an explanation as to why, whatever it is, he just said they seemed to like it.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  You know, that's why even like going bike riding for the day, for any families that have done that before or bushwalking, you feel, I think you feel alive because like that was our only goal for today was to do something really simple and just for fun. We didn't go on a bike ride because we had to take my tax return to the accountant and like it was something had to get done.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  We're trying to get these steps up or this or that.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just living. It's just that you get back in touch with the kind of the point of life.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. And we were just talking about it before, but it's also, there's something joyful about solving problems. You know, like so much of what the kids do when they're playing is problems. So much of making blue is problems and work is just these problems. There's something joyful about having a problem and solving it. It's almost, that's just like, that's the building blocks of play and all that.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Do you think that's important when you go into that next phase of childhood? Let's say like preteen and then into teenage years. Yes, there's less imagination, but there's no shortage of problems to solve creatively. And does that kind of, does that almost step into the breach as the evolution of those kids?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  I hope so. A lot of the problems that I've seen my kids face, and I guess I've faced at that age too, is, is personality stuff, right? Like, and a kid, you know, kid will come home and say, well, look, this kid is sort of like this and they're having a problem with this kid or whatever. And the, the best moments that my wife and I have had is when our kid will sort of identify that this kid's being a bit too dominant or whatever, you know, and, and go, I don't really want to be involved in that.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  No, that's good. I mean, that's the, that's what we all want as parents to see, like, agency.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  In our kids.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  The ability to make good decisions.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. In relation to other kids, you know, there's, there's obviously everything we're scared of or I'm scared of that will come in through the teenage years, usually, you know, the, the, it doesn't rain from the sky, it'll come in through another kid.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  It leaks in through the door.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  You know, marijuana does grow on trees, I guess, but someone will.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Bring it in through the door.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  It's often, yeah, it can often come in through the letterbox too.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  It's not smoked on trees.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, what we've always been trying to do is just raise kids who, you know, pretty adept at reading situations and other people and making good decisions.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  But yeah, look, I love Ben and I'm really proud of, I think he's a good role model and, and Chilean, I think what I love about him is we're talking about cool. They're not too cool. They, they're like, we're gonna, we're trying our best to be good parents here because this is important. And then I will sacrifice any dignity I have, you know, I'll play this game or whatever, because we're trying to be our best at this.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  I don't know if you said this, or I, I didn't invent this, but I'm, someone said it to me and it's always stuck with me. It's like, a lot of the time with playing with kids,

• 57:53Speaker 00

  it's not so much what you're doing is like, you're the game. The fact that you're there, you're the game, like for them in that moment with little kids, that's what they'll remember. They'll remember the action of you just being involved. You don't have to be good. You just have to be there.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Oh, you're like a celebrity. Well, we, we, we had a pool. I'd never had a pool growing up, right? But we went in Brizzy, we had a pool when the kids,

• 58:16Speaker 02

  maybe they were six or seven and, you know, they were obsessed with pool games. A lot of the Bluey pool games came from this, right? They would be three hour sessions of like games where, you know,

• 58:29Speaker 00

  You can say grueling.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  They were grueling.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  And then the whole game, when you went to get out, they were like, no, and they'd chase you down. And then, and then you, if you eventually got out, they would say, all right, handshake, you know, well done. And then of course you'd jump. It was full on, but I remember every now and then I just wanted to swim. I wanted to just lie there and I would sneak into the pool, like just not even making a splash. But eventually you would-

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Like a crocodile just about to-

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Sliding in, but you would splash something and then you'd just hear this, he's in the pool.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  And that womp. And you were, you were like this celebrity. It's like, wow, he's come, you know, his dad's playing with us. He's got free time. Yeah, yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  Get it.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  It'd be like, yeah, like Mission Impossible. You'd just go, you'd see the drop hit the thing.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  I can detect one drop of pool water from a mile away.

• 59:32Speaker 03

  I find myself, I love that so much and that feeling of being like, I, I am required for gameplay 24/7. And I, but recently I've, I'm feeling really shameful because I'm just finding myself, as you just said, just wanting a bit of not play.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 03

  Like I just need a little bit of like, I can't go from one game to the next game to the next game. Like my wife, Sophie, will say, you can say no, like you can say no, and dad needs to do this. But I find I cannot physically say no, and I feel guilty if I do say no. Cause there's this thing saying, one day they're never going to ask you to play again. And you just turned it down so you could, I don't know, hide in the toilet and swipe through YouTube for 10 minutes. And it feels so shameful. The presence thing and the distractions thing that we've brought up a few times today. It, I think is the hardest thing for me to overcome. I, my phone, um, broke about a month ago and I didn't really want to get like a brand new one.

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  So I decided to buy a refurbished one online and that takes like five days to arrive. So I actually had no phone for five days, which was, I would say my best. The first two or three were really hard. The last couple, two of the best days I've had this year. Um, and as anyone who has young kids would know, the bedtime routine is just grueling every night. And facing it sometimes like, I just can't fucking do one more. Like I've gone over the top.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  The other night, there was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. What can I do anymore? Sometimes, sometimes it's all right without even talking about it. And I do, I acknowledge that this is a luxury that you have as a two parent house. One of us just won't turn up.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Maybe it's because you're totally having two or one, like I don't think you can do it with three.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 00

  I'll be in, and they're a little bit old now, so like, but we're still in with both at bedtime. And so our do it, Rue's eight. And like, I'll be reading with Rue and be like, I can't hear Zoe in Sunny's room. And I've done it too, where like, it's like, all right, come on down, like, start with teeth, kind of breaking your teeth. And then you just upstairs and you're like, I'll just wait a bit. And then sometimes you just give yourself one bedtime off. And it's so allowed.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  You know, I'll be with Rue and there's like the whole performance, you know, scratch my back, scratch my tummy. Rue's just, I mean, we call it resisting arrest. Like she's just, there's just so many excuses to get out of bed.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  And then I'll go like, yeah, so just, she's just taken one off. And, and I've done the same many times. You just sit that one out, did you? I'm like, I was just cooked. Yeah, I'll duck in at the end for the final, for the curtain call. I'll duck in at the end for when the lights are off. Then, then, then like finally we're landing the plane.

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  Which you need to do, man, like, you know, it's, I, I, the Calypso who played the teacher, she wants to say, look, you know, you, you're busy. You've got things to do, like kids, you know, play with them when you can, but you're busy. I, I feel like Bluey doesn't, uh, one of the things is Bluey does just show a, a dad and a mum willing to drop everything at any time. But you, you've just said the reality, you, you, you know that these kids are gonna get old and there is that guilt. I think as long as that's where it comes from and not guilt like, oh, some, this is what I meant to be doing or whatever.

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, no, it can't, for me, it comes from the fact that one day I won't get to do this. But, um, to finish on the, on the distraction thing, though, I'd had no phone. Bedtime came around and I, because I had no distractions, I came up with a game, which was that the kids were, were all like spies. And they have to get from the bedroom into bed. Like chat in their pajamas in without making a single noise that mum would hear. So they don't know, she doesn't know what's going on.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  And then it developed into code words that I had to like yell out to mum for the gave them permission to like scurry down the hallway.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  And it built and it gave her the night off and it allowed them to get all the way into books without any friction.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  But I would not have come up with that game if I had my phone.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  It's a bandwidth thing, isn't it?

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's become a thing that we, it's a regular thing now and we're switching who's the like, who's the spy and who's the one getting a night off. And it's purely because I didn't have a phone.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  I like that, man.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  I'm literally, as you're telling the story, went in my head, I was like, I'm gonna get rid of my phone. And I was like, uh, they can't, bro. And I just ended up right back at square one. I was like, I don't want to go through the whole rhyme. It's a dumb phone debacle.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  So annoying for everyone else.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say on this, and I, I've years ago, I was at the park with our mum and my son and our son was going through a stage where he, I needed the slide. That was just the slide up and down, up and down, up and down. And I was trying so hard to, because at that point in my life, I was running around Australia telling people to not be on their phones as part of my resource project talks. And so I was really trying very, I could feel the battle of like, I'm getting bored, I'm getting bored. Mum's entertaining him, I'm just, and I got my phone out to, and I just looked at it and I got a very disapproving look from mum. And I, I got quite defensive, I said, no, I was checking emails. And she said, well, I'm sure it's very important if it needs to be ahead of this. And sort of looked at my son.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  And she said, yeah, it's not even, it's not even really the child that I feel sorry for, it's actually you. And then she said, when I was your age and you were his age, she said, I saw everything you saw. I smelled everything you smelled, I heard everything you heard because I was there with you fully. And because of that, now in my seventies, I am filled with so many incredible moments of joy. She said, I can't walk past a jasmine bush now without feeling this, like this absolute pang of joy. Because when you were little, you were just obsessed with the smell of jasmine bush. I'm, I'm constantly reminded of things from your kids because I was there with you. But, but you and your generation of parents are not gonna get that. You're not gonna get that because you're not fully there. And it had a massive impact on me, but I, I do think that sentiment comes through with so many

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  episodes of Bluey. Josh, you pointed out the, um, uh, midnight, the, like the last line in midnight. The, um, uh, for those who haven't seen Midnight, it's, it's, the episode is, is, it's, it's basically, yeah, it's, it's, it's Ben taking the bin out every night with the girls, coming with him and every, and he checks in with them and he, he always asks, the, the, the running thing is how's Kinder today? Bingo. And she's able to talk about some trouble. She's having another kid. But at the end, right at the end of the episode, um, Bluey's thing is always asking what she could be when she grows up. And she says, I might be a scientist. And she said, I might invent a robot to take the bin out for your dad. And he says, I hope not. And referring to, and it was just amazing. It was the very last line as they're walking off into the distance behind the house.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  And I just, uh, the moments of connection, you often don't know when they're going to come. And they're not, when we think of creating family rituals, like, well, do, do this for Christmas, do this for Easter. That's not so much, I don't, it's, it's, it's little rituals like that. So little things like that. And they're the things that I do worry that this generation of parents are missing. Um, and yes, it's sad for us, as my mom pointed out, but I do think about the kids and what they miss out on there.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Hmm. Oh, man, we're all screwed. Absolutely. There's, and myself included. Your mom's a hundred percent right. It's, there's, um, yeah, the, that attention span is, is just, we're just, I, me, my kids, my wife, we just give it over to the, the, um, the search.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  I call it because, you know, really, I, I learnt that the chemical that gives the enjoyment, it's not so much, say YouTube, it's not so much finding, you know, watching this video, my golf video that I wanted to watch. It's just that act of searching.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Maybe that's the one I need.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  It's the, but it's the, but it's the.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  It's the searching.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  What could be next.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. For whatever reason, that's the way our brains work, that we, it's just, it's comfort in something great might be coming, you know? And so you search, you scroll, you scroll. And it's just this, that's the bit's enjoyable. You know, it's, that's comforting and enjoyable because, I don't know, it's like.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Poking is basically.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. You know, like no one, the, the, the full on slot jockeys, they're not going, if I can just retire, you know, if I can win enough, then I can get on with my dreams. They're just, it's, I enjoy this little release of.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Or I'll come to depend on it.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  My only hope is that it's that this generation and my kids, they, they have to go through this to realise it.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  No means. Yeah.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  You know, it's just like us looking back at photos of everyone smoking somewhere. And we're like, oh my God, look at everyone. Everyone was just smoking.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh my God, look at everyone. They're on their phones.

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  I worry it's not going to be the case.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  It's true though, because we, we're so strict on phone rules, like at the dinner table or whatever. Like, it's interesting, our kids have phoned police. Because they obviously, they don't have phones, like this little, and you know, to the point where I am, you know, like when a cop's taken off the case, they have to hand in their badge and gun. If I am going to the toilet, the kids are like, give us your phone. Like, turn it in. And I'm like, I'll be quick. And they're like, yeah, well, let's have it.

• 1:09:03Speaker 00

  So I'm like, this is great because, you know, I guess I'm like, I'm annoyed because I did want to quickly go on the phone. But I, and I would have been very quick, but.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Are you keeping them in the sister now? You go in.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  No SIM card, just Instagram.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Got a PC in the toilet.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  But I'm like, I'm like, great. There is a glimmer of hope there because I think for families, and we're certainly not the only ones that have developed this awareness of like, okay, we obviously don't have phones at the table. We don't do screens in bedrooms. You start to develop like screen aware rules in the house that you're like, maybe, just maybe this generation grows up and they're like, we don't like phones because we don't like it when mum and dad are on them. And we don't want to, and they've, they're at least framing it with some of the downfall, like some of the negatives, rather than just them being this, this golden shimmering oasis on the horizon that they just can't wait to get one of.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  I, I, yeah. And.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  And it's not even a punitive thing. They, they end up realising, they experience how this feels.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, for someone else.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  And they go, you know, I'm sick of, I'm sick of this feeling, you know, because I do think you get sick of just being in that search mode. The searching makes you feel good, but eventually you realise I'm not finding anything.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  No, we also hate ourselves for it. And you also get off and go, I can't remember anything I saw.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  At all.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that golf fix didn't work, you know.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  There might be one more.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  But every now and then you have a, you have those real tangible experiences and, and they're, you know, like you say, they're harder to, for me anyway, I've found them there. They take more time and they require patience. They cry everything that the phone isn't. But when they do happen, they're.

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  That's the point.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  They're realer and.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  It feels like real living.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  This is what our brains are meant to be doing.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  Proper food.

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say the food thing. I'm, I'm like, it feels like it's all junk food that is not filling me. There's no sati- sati- sati- satiation, is that right?

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  You've just got to get rid of that second S in your home.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Satiation?

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, satiation.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  Satiation? No, okay. I should probably know the words I'm gonna use.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  We've been great with the other ones.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you, you have that moment of connection or a game that works or just the right look from your child. And that's like the most fulfilling meal you'll ever have. It's the best.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  And, and I go back to these Nerf wars we have, like everyone finishes exhausted and you just know there's no phones involved. The kids and the girls have now got walkie talkies, but.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  For, for, for combat.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, awesome.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  They can now report. Okay, Uncle Dan's dead. He's in the kitchen. Run around.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Do you have to lie in the Nerf barrels? Do you have to stay down if you're being shot?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Great for extra realism.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yep. Stay down.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  Can you?

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  You can reload.

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  When you're down?

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Just because that then makes the next round go a bit sooner because.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  Oh, of course you've got to refill the gun. Can your, can you steal weapons off downed people?

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  I tried to ta- take one of the girls unicorn guns one time and the screaming was next level.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Especially because they were dead too. Zombie screaming.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Are you, I'm just interested in the rules here. Can rig a mortar set in so you can hold on? Tea gun very tight.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  We had realised we'd, it's funny when you violate a rule that no one realised was a rule.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Don't touch the girl's guns.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  But they, it, this feels like we're eating proper food again.

• 1:12:43Speaker 03

  And I guess to, to add to that, like the effort required to play is high. So if you're already exhausted and you're a single parent and you're just doing it on your own, it must be so hard to, to go, to commit and actually do the play that's required.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I suppose the reason, like all this stuff we're talking about the distractions, like yes, there's the phone distraction, but it's also the life distraction. You're like, okay, well, there's washing, there's like, there's always shit that needs to be done around the house. You are usually making, taking a calculated decision to leave that for the time being to play, because we want to be there for our kids and we want the benefits of playing. But it's not like you only, no one kind of just plays at the end of the task list, otherwise you would never play. And for single parents, you know, you obviously can, we're not in that position, but we can imagine like that task list is double,

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  because you don't have someone else helping buy you even a sliver of time to, to take that time to go and get on the floor.

• 1:13:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Well, I'll say two things. One is that I, you know, I have to just, it's just my Bluey created guilt that the, the ideal is kids playing with other kids. If, if you've got time to play with your own kids, then, then there's obviously nothing wrong with that. But the, the ideal is to get them into situations where they're, they're playing with other kids because they're, you know, they're equals, right? And they, they all want to do the same thing. And a big part of that, kids are just completely observant, right? So if you're, if you have zero time to play with your kids and they, all they see you do is working around the house and doing this and that, that's them watching you. And then I can guarantee you that will then feed in the next day, at Kindia, whatever, preschool,

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  to their play session. They'll, they'll play house or they'll play whatever your job is and they will be putting.

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  Sorry, I know you meant that as an example, you sort of looked at me, I'm like, yeah, what is my job? You were talking about whatever your job is.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  My kids are trying to figure out with me as well.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  And, and so they're watching you and, and you're sort of part of their play, even though you don't know it. Cause they will be recreating you. And if you're a mother or father, then you're showing them what a mother or father does. And then they go the next day and they say, right, well, I'm, I'm now a, um, I'm going to be dad and I'm doing this and that. You know, so you, you, you might not be down on the floor with them, but you are doing a pretty essential part.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  You're modeling for them.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  You're modeling it. Yep.

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  I feel like it's a, on that thing of that, the, the dream is kids playing together. I'm only getting to the age, I'm not getting to the age, I've been able to play with kids with other people for a long time. My kids are only getting to the age now where we can have kids around for a play date for a few hours and they can play. And I feel like that's been one of the biggest parenting hacks I've realized is like, oh, they just play together. And I can just, I can do my thing. I can clean the house and I can do the things that needed to be done. More, exactly. More kids is easier than less.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Which is the opposite of having kids.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  When you put them together.

• 1:15:58Speaker 03

  With other people's.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  With other people's kids, more is easier somehow.

• 1:16:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  And I think if we could, if we could wind it back a few decades or whatever, where the kids just lived on the street. And, you know, obviously it went with the downsides, um, but, and, and families were bigger.

• 1:16:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  So there just were just tons of kids around.

• 1:16:19Speaker 00

  I do, you know, I'm in our own little microcosm. Various reasons, like it's hard to get kids together sometimes. I think a lot of people in this day and age, especially as you're starting to get into that, like late primary school. It just isn't what we had in the eighties, which is come home, be home by dark. Like come home, chuck your school bag aggressively at the foot of the kitchen table. Get like, get on your bike and be home by dark.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Play with the neighbors.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  So much, so much just acres and acres of like just random time.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Have you tried to explain that to your kids, that phenomenon?

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  It's wild to go to them, hey guys, we would not home after school. No one had ever heard of an extracurricular activity. We barely did intracurricular activities.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Even we, I mean, I think I was saying this, we watched A T with them last year and there's seen, there'd been an A T where they discover the alien. They're like, well, we're going to stay home from school and look after this alien we found. And spoiler alert, if you haven't seen it.

• 1:17:17Speaker 00

  But the kids are about our kids' age. They're like, you know, year six or seven, maybe. And then so it's this, the scene was like, okay, well, I feel sick. And mum's like, okay, well, you know, I gotta go. And I was like, guys, you know, that's what used to happen when we were sick. You like mum and dad had to go to work. And so I was like, well, there's cordial in the fridge. And my phone number, like, call this number if you start to die. But other than that, you just walked around the house, looked through their room, like I just looked at mum and dad's wardrobe. Watched Ricky Lake. Took some coins off the top of it. Learned about American culture through daytime television. I was like, oh, okay. So there's a lot of paternity fights going on.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  People aren't sure who their dad is in America. And then, you know, just, just have a Barocca. And uh, just wait till I got home.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Better or worse?

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  Better. Yeah. It's the point where I almost wanted to introduce at the school and I didn't. So again, um, no follow through on this idea. I was gonna call it like eighties club or something where it's like, we do a rotating voluntary parent system. Where it's like, we're just going to the park near the school and there's no plan. But the kids just have to go to the park for two hours and we might take a few random balls or whatever. And the role of the parent is just basically to make sure they don't get kidnapped. And then, but just don't, you don't have to play with them. Yeah, just be there. And then, and there's like a creek and like a bit of bushland and stuff. I was like, just go and be and see what happens.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  There was a guy in Silicon Valley, uh, you know, techy sort of dude years ago. And he, his idea, he called them playbohoods, right? And he wanted to create, somehow create neighborhoods that were like the eighties again, where they were physically structured. So that, I don't know, maybe a backyards were all interconnecting, whatever. Um, that, that were like that. That, that you've built his physical environment around that idea.

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

  Cause I think it's so worth talking about, and especially with the single parent, um, component of this. You know, we are talking so much about how we feel as parents and we're wanting to play and how do we foster this? But you're right. Like it's, it's, we can't be another kid and they need other kids.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  And it's what we noticed a lot in COVID. Everyone had various experiences, but I was like, you know, it's only was like in year one at the time. And I think that's what he missed them. I was like, I was like, he just needs to be a dickhead. To be honest, but surrounded by other dickheads.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  And I can be a bit of a dickhead, but I'm not, not a good.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  I'm just pretending.

• 1:19:52Speaker 00

  Seven year old one. I'm just, I'm just a forty year old trying to be a seven year old dickhead. But he needs real dickheads.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  Real dickheads. Yeah. Like, I'll throw this rock at that thing.

• 1:20:06Speaker 00

  Just like, it's all, it's like, you know, we can't fully give them what other kids can give them because by, just by being there, we ruin. It's like, it's by observing, isn't it the Heisenberg principle? By observing it, we ruin it.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  So if anyone needed a, like a particle, particle physics analogy, but, but you, but you just, it's, it. I lament that a bit. I don't really have the solution, but I think it's such a good point too. Because if it is that, there is that single parent thing. We've got so much on. It was like, well, there is a whole, you know, other kids do the job. Other kids are what they need.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  And those other kids need your kids. Yeah, I agree. I, I'd love it if somehow we all. And that's sort of what pass the parcel is about really. It's just like, look, everyone, this will work. The episode pass parcel. This will work if, if everyone decides to do it. But it's no good just sending your kid out onto the street. That everyone else's, you know, you, the kid across the road needs to be on the street too.

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Like, I'd love it. You know, I, I heard something, one of the NASA guys saying, um. A lot of their, their intake, the people at the moment, genius, you know, all top of the unis and all that, but they. They have no practical skills. And they said, the people we used to hire at NASA were the kids who would take apart a radio.

• 1:21:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  And put it back together with their hands, you know, and, and it was just that. There's something analogue that I think we've lost.

• 1:21:33Speaker 00

  And you'd also argue, I'm sure if you're hiring people for NASA, you need to be pretty good at living in a tin can with someone for four months.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:40Speaker 00

  Like you need a bit of play.

• 1:21:40Speaker 00

  Pretty high level of play and social skills.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  Just if you're bored, you take his, you know.

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  Don't take apart that, we need that.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  That's how we react to the atmosphere.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  At least if you do. Put it back, exactly.

• 1:21:54Speaker 00

  Find you a less critical component you can tinker with.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  There's a few episodes I want to bring up there. I'm conscious of time, but I just, I just, things that have really stood out to me. One thing I think I've told you before, I had the great pleasure of when I was living with and working with the Queensland State of Origin side, that's when the Origin episode came out, the State of Origin episode came out. What's that called?

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  The decider.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  The decider, that's it, yeah, sorry. I said, we're gonna watch it and all the players and coaches who were dads.

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  And so we all watched, actually watched the decider with the Queensland State of Origin dads, which is just the most surreal but wonderful experience. But what I wanted to tell you, I don't think I've ever told you, it was so funny, is that when that episode finished, another episode came and we kept watching it.

• 1:22:38Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't, no one said like.

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  Mist training.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  We lost that year.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  Makes a lot, Joe.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  And yeah, I remember it's a very, very manly group of men, but the episode that came on afterwards was Facey Talk. Facey Talk, that's, yeah.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, Facey Talk. And there's just a moment that I, that's the most I've cried watching Bluey, and the most I've cried in a long time. And it was with the manliest men you'll ever see, but I don't think I was alone, where Facey Talk is brilliant. It basically is the adventure of two families FaceTiming, the kids FaceTiming each other. You can see the parents in the background going about their family life. But it brings up, um, there's a particularly challenging child in one of the families. Um, and it, it highlights the difficult, the difficulties of, of parenting. A, uh, what's the word? Just, just a really challenging child.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  And you can see the parents discussing different approaches to parenting in the background and it turns into a bit of an argument. And the kids are still FaceTiming, drawing all over the screen, but in the background you see the parents reconciling their differences and hugging. I just, I mean, I was, I was inconsolable on a beanbag surrounded by the manliest men in Australia. And I was, I was like, oh, this has really got me and I don't want to be seen to be crying this much here. But then I realised I wasn't alone and, and I, and I, I haven't told you that yet. But I, I, that's a brilliant moment because parenting, um, even without challenging kids is incredibly challenging. And it, and it, any difference you have in parenting approach or philosophies around parenting.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  The more strained you are, the more tired you are, the more exhausted you are, the more that they sort of just exaggerate on themselves. And you do find yourself having moments where you're just disagreeing. But then the challenge is to come back together and, and coming back together for the kids and in that moment. And it was just a, yeah, it's a, it's a very special moment and I, I think you captured that, that so incredibly well.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Again, it's not a question and I know you're uncomfortable.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  So I'm saying, we're just gonna say things to you and you don't have to send anything back.

• 1:24:55Speaker 02

  No, and I, I love the line, uh, soon after Trixie and Stripe have sorted it out. That they're then coordinating how to capture Muffin and Blue Yells, watch out Muffin, they're working together.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Yes, that is, yes.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Would have been better if I'd recited that line for you, but yes, that's exactly, it's incredible. It's an incredible moment.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I saw that video. Um, I think that one of those was filmed of, or a separate one was filmed showing the, the origin place. Yeah, it was really quite special, you know, because you do think of, you know, rugby league players as like, you know, that's the, the sort of manly sort of men of things.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  But that's the thing, I think that doesn't matter, you know, like that's all the external.

• 1:25:38Speaker 00

  Shell of these guys, like they present to the world in really different ways. But anyone that's a dad also was a little boy as well and has that inside them and has, and is like boom, straight back in touch with what it feels to be a little boy and all the things that brings up with them. So I think that's sort of what we're talking about with, you know, play as well and, and wonder it is there for a lot of people. Just sometimes it depends how far below the surface it is.

• 1:26:04Speaker 03

  I think it also gives people the idea, like I think there are a lot of dads, I'm saying on behalf of dads, but I'm sure it's for mums as well. A lot of people wanting to do it, wanting to play, but it's really hard to come up with ideas. And I am shocked at like, the amount of times I've gone to a playground and started playing a game or heard someone playing a game. And there's been many times where the kids have introduced games to me and I haven't seen that episode of Bluey and I thought they had come up with the, come up with the game. Then I see other kids playing. I'm like, hang on, that was our game. What are they doing?

• 1:26:37Speaker 00

  You know, Shadowlands.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I think it's, uh, cause I think we've like, we've, we've talked about the challenges of parenting quite a lot today. And I want to like acknowledge everyone that like, we're all struggling, like we're all finding it really hard. And it's not a judgment on anyone who is on their phone too much because I'm as guilty as anyone. But one of the things when you are stressed and you are not paying attention is coming up with the ideas of what we can do next. And Bluey and through Bandit and, and Chili have given just ideas that you can pull off the shelf that you can incorporate. And then suddenly you're, you're, you're in it and you're halfway there and you can come up with your own ideas and develop that game into your own thing. But it's a, it's a remarkable thing to have for people who are already, who are struggling and doing it really tough.

• 1:27:23Speaker 00

  I think 80% of it's just stepping back and letting them drive. Like in, in the imagination stuff and being, and, and like, I think a pull, noticing where your kids are being pulled is like, all we want is our kids to be pulled to something.

• 1:27:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Speaker 00

  You know, I think we all the same thing. We don't care what it is. We just want them to be into something. Sometimes a good, a relieving thing to remember for that pressure we put on ourselves is sometimes. It's actually just about letting go of trying to come up with anything and letting them, but just letting them lead.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's like starting a fire, right? Just like, all right, let's just get a few little things here and, you know, now maybe this, they'll just suddenly add something and then.

• 1:28:04Speaker 00

  It'll catch.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it'll catch.

• 1:28:06Speaker 00

  That's so true. It is actually the perfect analogy because it's like, the spark is really the only thing you need to have to go from nothing to something.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Speaker 00

  I think that's why we call ideas sparks.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Speaker 00

  Cause then after that, it can catch fire.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  It does. Yeah. And then you, you look back like we, we, this game eventually evolved out of shops where we had one of those little wooden shop things, which never made it into Bluey, but probably because it was called Head Sheeran. And basically I was the shopkeeper, but I was just a head. And, I don't know, you know, cause I was a shopkeeper, but that eventually was like, I would just lie my head on the thing there, like just trying to rest. And they go, I'm just a head. Okay. If you want stuff, you've got to get it yourself. And then I'd have a little rat, which would be my hand to grab their feet, but then they would love it because they could just shoplift and they'd run off and I'm just a head yelling at them. And, and so then we would just play head shearing for like, I bet that I didn't,

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  you didn't sit down and say, right, I'm going to play a game where I'm just a head, da, da, da. It just.

• 1:29:07Speaker 00

  It just evolves.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Head shearing, that's a nice one, a nice game to, you know, to leave everyone with. Thank you so much, mate. That's so special to, to, I mean, for me personally to, to chat with, for people who's parenting and adding skills, I admire enormously. So, um, thank you for, for being so generous with insights into the way you work, but also your time. Um, we're so appreciative, mate.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolute pleasure. Thanks, guys.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.