Brett Cooper Breaks Silence on Leaving the Daily Wire, Starting Over, and Controversy

Peterson Academy: Join today for $399 per year! https://petersonacademy.com/ICH Ground News: Go to https://ground.news/ICED to see past media bias and think for yourself. Subscribe through our link for 40% off unlimited access to Ground News. Oracle: Cut your cloud bill in half—switch to OCI today https://oracle.com/iced NetSuite: Take advantage of NetSuite’s Flexible Financing Program: https://www.netsuite.com/ICED Range Rover Sport: Start designing your Range Rover Sport today at https://www.rangerover.com/us/sport MagicMind: Get 50% off Magic Mind here: https://magicmind.com/icedcoffeeEDU Follow and Subscribe to Brett Cooper Here: @bbrettcooper Add us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan Official Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBQ24VfikOriqSdKtomh0w For sponsorships or business inquiries reach out to: [email protected] For Podcast Inquiries, please DM @icedcoffeehour on Instagram! Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:28 - Most divisive time ever? 00:09:21 - Can public figures change sides? 00:11:02 - Opinion she gets hate for 00:18:33 - Sponsor - Peterson Academy 00:20:38 - Last time Brett changed her mind 00:27:42 - Tough family convos 00:32:04 - Childhood punishments 00:36:10 - Graham stealing story 00:41:43 - Most unfair criticisms 00:43:25 - Public vs. private life 00:46:40 - Sponsor - Ground News 00:48:05 - Sponsor - Oracle 00:49:06 - Support letters from fans 00:51:29 - Fixing mental health system 00:59:06 - Regrets about oversharing 01:02:46 - Internet reaction to husband 01:03:38 - Thoughts on fan crushes 01:04:17 - Dealing with stalkers 01:12:29 - Is dating harder today? 01:13:57 - Best way to meet someone 01:17:03 - Sponsor - NetSuite 01:18:21 - Sponsor - Range Rover 01:19:20 - Women rejecting traditional values 01:26:07 - Advice for men 01:30:54 - Where to meet traditional women 01:34:55 - Hookup culture 01:41:18 - Women earning more 01:43:33 - Should men lead the household? 01:52:00 - 8-year age gap 01:55:01 - How old is too old? 01:56:27 - One new cultural rule 02:02:49 - Thoughts on OnlyFans 02:14:06 - What is a high-value man? 02:18:13 - What gives her the ick 02:24:18 - Reasonable dealbreakers 02:27:41 - Ideal 2025 marriage contract 02:34:47 - Early YouTube struggles 02:42:04 - Logic or intuition? 02:42:42 - Leaving Daily Wire 02:44:44 - How they could’ve kept her 02:46:39 - Hardest part of going solo 02:48:37 - New business income 02:50:32 - Size of her team 02:52:25 - Rapid-fire questions *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  People see one thing and then there's another thing that happens, you know, off-screen and offline.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Well, it looks like the rumors were true.

• 0:33Speaker 03

  Brett Cooper's departure has caused quite a stir.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  I wrote every single episode of the show that I did, and I put the stories together. I drove the creation of it. I knew that my situation was not normal, so I was always kind of thinking about breaking a cycle.

• 0:48Jack Selby?

  Would you say right now going on, 2025, the most divided we've been?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  This divide between men and women goes so deep right now, between happiness and finances and educational levels to ideology. But I think people kind of brush it aside and make fun of it, and we laugh about it, and we say, oh, these liberal women, whatever. It's so important.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Brett Cooper announces she is leaving The Daily Wire.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Brett Cooper is officially leaving The Daily Wire.

• 1:12Graham Stephan?

  What was the most difficult part of branching out on your own?

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Not knowing what I didn't know.

• 1:17Graham Stephan?

  Was there anything that they could have done to have kept you?

• 1:28Jack Selby?

  Brett, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Happy to be here.

• 1:31Jack Selby?

  So our first episode was one of our most viewed episodes ever. It did like over 100 million views across all platforms.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 1:38Jack Selby?

  2 million on video and audio of like the main full-length podcast. Everyone loved it, and you have so many things going on right now. Leaving The Daily Wire, we have you getting married, or you got married.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50Jack Selby?

  So many things to catch up on. Thanks again.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, happy to be here.

• 1:54Jack Selby?

  So we're really curious because we think, I think, it's the most divisive time ever. But people I feel like always say that.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01Jack Selby?

  Would you say right now going on 2025, the most divided we've been?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think because we just came off of a period of what I feel like was real unity for a moment. Like during the election, I felt like there was more unity in this country than I had ever experienced before. And, you know, I was a post 9/11 baby. I feel like I didn't experience like my parents, you know, talk about what the world was like after 9/11, where the entire country came together and it felt like there was this whole, you know, unified American spirit. And maybe it's because of the bubble that I was in in terms of my values and the show that I do, but it felt very unified in November of like everybody who had crossed the aisle to vote for Trump, everybody who was excited about where the country was going. It felt like it was very pop.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 3:14Speaker 06

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• 3:42Speaker 01

  And then actually, the first episode that I did on my show kind of speaks to what you're talking about now, which was I feel like that started to crumble. So I think that there's still some like lingering pieces of unity, but I feel like the right were just bad winners in general. And I feel like there's a lot of divisiveness within the right wing in general. I think the left is also kind of imploding on it. Because they don't know what's going on. So I'm just speaking purely politically. So I think there's a lot of confusion, but I think there was far more division in like a 2020 than there is now. That felt like hostile division. This feels like confused chaos.

• 4:18Graham Stephan?

  See, I've seen those charts, the polls that show like the unity throughout the 90s and then it just diverges in the last like three or four years. And now I think according to the polls, it is the most divisive we've ever been in history. And it seems like the right's more right and the left is more left.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:35Graham Stephan?

  And fewer people in the middle.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  And it's interesting. And I wonder if that's because people have now felt like they need to be in a party. Like the middle is no longer a common ground like place to be. Like, I feel like that's happened on both the right and the left, where the right has pointed fingers and said, like, you can't be a centrist, you can't be an independent, you need to be over here. Where the left has kind of done the same thing of if you step out of line, then you're canceled. So I think a lot of people have just become more and more partisan, which has probably added to that division. And then, and again, I think that in terms of both parties, you have that additional layer of it being, so maybe you are right in terms of like, it's like there's broader division and then within each like segment of our like political landscape, there also feels like a lot of division.

• 5:14Graham Stephan?

  I think it's almost echo chambers online, that the algorithms really promote the extremes.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 5:18Graham Stephan?

  And like, the more outrageous you are, like, I could tell some people purposely will like toe the line. And they do it intentionally to get a reaction. And just you get one side just losing their mind, but that engagement just like drives it to the top. And then the people that feed into that now like have a direction. They, they could either go down that and it just becomes the echo chamber.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  And there's this whole conversation about like whether monetizing X was a good idea because of that, because now you have like the engagement baiters. Whether it's just the like, what do you think about that? Like they post some like ridiculous story with a ridiculous question. Or it's the toeing the line and just basically being a firebrand. And I think Matt Walsh was tweeting about this just a couple of days ago of saying that he wishes that it wasn't monetized because it's made the platform just so messy. And it's, I think, he believes that it's hurt the political landscape in a lot of ways. But I think that it has changed incentives for sure, especially on that platform. But yeah.

• 6:11Jack Selby?

  What I find interesting is that the the conflict and the divisiveness, I think, is now emerging in a way of like, people don't even want to have conversations. And I've noticed this, I'm kind of outing myself early here, but like somewhat recently, I'm not going to say when, I matched with a woman on Hinge.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:30Jack Selby?

  And her message to me was,

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Oh no.

• 6:33Jack Selby?

  Oh, I just found you online. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, what did you see? And she's like, well, I think that you're one of those like right wing, like,

• 6:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:42Jack Selby?

  And I'm like, I looked at my Instagram, because she found my Instagram. And I think what she was referring to is that I asked Jordan Peterson what his favorite books were.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 6:50Jack Selby?

  She saw that I was associated with Jordan Peterson, and that was too much for her.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is another part of divisiveness, is that men and women are more divided than ever. So now that I'm like walking through all of this, I think, where I was looking at it through the lens of just like, oh, the right and the left. I think when you look at our society, we are probably, and I don't know if this is what that, you know, polling was looking at. But, so now we have, we've already kind of gone through these other places that are more divided, but like men and women, ideologically, we are now more divided than ever. Like, women are moving farther to the left, men are increasingly moving to the right, but it's not even like you're out here being some like crazy right wing extremist, but just because you associated with Jordan Peterson, or you, you know, interviewed Ben Shapiro, it's like, oh, it's just, and it's, I think, that

• 7:35Speaker 01

  male female division is playing a much bigger role than a lot of people are talking about.

• 7:41Graham Stephan?

  I noticed in the interview with David Pakman, or Anna Kasparian.

• 7:44Jack Selby?

  Destiny, or Hassan, like anybody, yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 7:47Jack Selby?

  But it doesn't matter. It's like, if you're just in rooms with certain people, they won't, they won't even ask you questions, they just make assumptions.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 7:54Jack Selby?

  And I find that really interesting also, when you look at like Anna Kasparian, how she's now been, some people think sympathizing with the right a little bit more. And then, everyone's disliking this, which is so weird. Some people on the right are a little receptive to it. Everyone on the left thinks she's like a traitor. A lot of people on the right are like, well, you still said all of these things a couple of years ago, and for that, we're not going to forgive you.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  And that's the finger wagging, which is so annoying to me, because if somebody is being willing to cross party lines for the sake Of, and I don't look at her as grifting at all, but truly for the sake of understanding, of wanting the world to be better, of really trying to find common ground. It's like, who are we then to point fingers and say, oh, I'm not going to forgive you for this. I'm not forgetting. It's like all the COVID stuff of, you know, people who were late to the game on masks and lockdowns or vaccines or whatever it might be, who came out of the fog three years later and went, oh, my God, this destroyed our economy. This destroyed young people and their development. This created a mental health crisis. I can't believe that I engaged in this, that I supported it. And you have people on the right who, you know, we're not forgiving or forgetting.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  We're never letting you move on. I'm like, they're human beings. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody does things that they regret or thinks things that they regret. Now they've changed their minds about things. We're never going to move forward and have actual progress. If you can't come to the table and have a conversation. So I think it's a problem on both sides for sure. The right is definitely better at it, but there are still those people that are so, maybe it's the right that I engage with.

• 9:17Jack Selby?

  Did you see Chris Cuomo and PBD, how PBD was trying to invite Chris to be like a regular paid talent on the show? And like, the comments were insane. How they like, every time he appeared, all of the top comments, thousands of likes. How could you bring this person on your show? How could you be platforming this person? Like, I didn't think that this was, you know, going to be this big of an issue. And I congratulated PBD. I'm like, I love this idea. He's like, oh, thank you. I'm like, why did you do it? He's like, well, I want to connect both sides. And I'm like, okay. Good impression. I was like, yeah, that's great. I love that. And, uh, but yeah, the people don't like it.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, and I think that also depends on who your audience is and who the base is. Like, it would kind of make sense in terms of PBD's audience that they might not be interested in that. Whereas I think my audience that is already very ideologically diverse, which is something that I'm super proud of and I think is very, very special. Like whenever I talk about things that, um, or talk about individuals or people that might not be completely, you know, partisan or be on, you know, the other side, they're very receptive to it. Because it's like, no, this is about common ground. It is about trying to move forward in a positive, productive way. And so I think it's just encouraging people to lean into that, which is hard. It's hard to sit across from somebody who thinks differently than you and have humility and grace

• 10:32Speaker 01

  and try to find understanding. It is hard for a lot of people to forgive and forget when their lives were completely changed by something that was so destructive and so awful. But I think you can't live in the past. You're never going to move forward from that. It's just kind of a...

• 10:44Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Do you think you can change your mind in public anymore? And if so, how do you do it?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. It's really, really hard because it does require a lot of humility. It's hard as an individual, just in general, without, you know, having any kind of public platform to change your mind and accept responsibility and let people know that you're changing your mind. That's just hard in your personal life regardless. But it's incredibly hard in this media landscape that moves so quickly and where people are so judgmental and they just clip things. So I think it's definitely harder and it makes me respect the people like Anna who are able to do that, who are able, even just like dipping their toe and, you know, saying, maybe I thought incorrectly about this. Maybe my mind is changing. It's really, really hard. Like I look at the Nicole Shanahan's and

• 11:31Speaker 01

  the Tulsi Gabbards of the world. I mean, like Tulsi is the prime example of this, who was literally put on no-fly lists because of her path of changing her mind. She was villainized by her own people, by her own party and her community. And I think one of the reasons why people love her so much now, especially on the right, is because she took all of that into right. You know, she went through all of it with grace. She never wavered. And that's incredibly, incredibly hard to do. And I think that's why there are so few examples of that. If you talk to Nicole Shanahan, what she and her family went through, her entire foundation basically being taken away from her. I mean, it was just insane. And I think when you are somebody with that much influence and that much, you

• 12:15Speaker 01

  know, you could say, power or just, you know, I guess influence is the best word. It just becomes increasingly difficult. And I think it's, it requires a lot of fortitude. So, yeah.

• 12:25Graham Stephan?

  What's a hot take you have that you get a lot of hate for?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Funnily enough, the last thing that really pissed people off, which is not a hot take at all, but I think it was something that I hadn't talked about a lot, was that I'm not a fan of Zelensky. And that's not a hot take. Like, I really, like, it was, I did an episode about, like, Trump's first 30 days in office, and I talked about his meeting with Zelensky that was super viral with him and JD Vance. And they basically talked about, you know, the humor in it, but I definitely had some side remarks about Zelensky and the fact that as an American taxpayer, really don't want to be funding a war anymore. And my comments were like lit up of people being like, I had no idea that you are like against Zelensky. And that was like the most recent thing. But that's not even a hot takes. I don't know if I-

• 13:07Jack Selby?

  Why do you think they thought you were in support of him?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  I don't, because I just never talk about, because I don't really talk about foreign policy.

• 13:12Jack Selby?

  But you think your audience disproportionately, they all side with him?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  I don't think, I don't think that they-

• 13:18Jack Selby?

  Not side with him in that way, but like, they all like him.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  I also think that it was like a smaller vocal minority. Like, it was just people who came out of the woodwork. Who like my, so I can see like my normal commenters, like the people who are always like the first one to comment on the day and that kind of stuff.

• 13:29Jack Selby?

  They're the best.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. They're wonderful.

• 13:31Graham Stephan?

  Thank you, guys. We really appreciate it.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  But it's like their, all their comments were totally normal. I find it was like random accounts I had ever seen before that just like popped out of the woodwork that were just so horrifying. I don't know.

• 13:40Graham Stephan?

  Do you think they're bots?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  They could be. I know, but that was like, that was the most-

• 13:44Graham Stephan?

  There could be someone just, yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was the most recent thing that's like got me in hot water. But I really don't get into hot water that frequently because I feel like, and if I do, it's for something that, and this is interesting, um,

• 14:00Speaker 01

  I think if I do get into hot water, it's because I'm holding a mirror up to things that people don't really want to hear or see. Like, the thing that, I've always talked about this, but the thing that got me, I think, the closest to being canceled by my own audience than I ever have been, was I did an episode back in, I think it was 2020, like end of 2020, about the, the problems with young men in our current society. And in looking back, I don't think I would change much about the episode, but maybe my tone could have been a bit different. But it was basically breaking down all the stats about young men, about the fact that young men are increasingly not getting driver's licenses. They're not moving out of their parents' homes. They're not getting jobs. They're, you know, falling behind in terms of higher education and women are surpassing them.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  And the driver's license one was the craziest thing to me because that is such an indicator of a lack of, you know, a literal drive to have independence, a drive to be able to go take a girl out on a date and pick her up. And it's just wild to me.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  So I basically, I did this episode and then I said, like, what, what's wrong? Like, what is happening? And it was kind of a call to action of if you feel like you are falling into any of these traps or you're part of these statistics, like, I'm just letting you know, you're not alone, but there also is room to, you know, you can change course. You can change your life. These are small things. Like, it's really not that hard to go get a driver's license. That is taking a huge step in your life. Like, going and getting even just like a part-time job is a great thing to add to your life, especially as a young man, to encourage, you know, independence and responsibility. And I have never seen an angrier comment section. I mean, it was like I was heartbreaking.

• 15:29Graham Stephan?

  Who's commenting, men or women?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Men, it was all of the men.

• 15:32Graham Stephan?

  What were they saying?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  They were like, you don't understand us. This is so, you're so awful. Why would you say this about us? You don't understand what it's like to be a man in 2022. I mean, so, so angry, which is so ironic because I would also do episodes about that. Or like that, about women, talking about, you know, women moving increasingly to the left, women and their promiscuity, women leaning into feminism, whatever it might be. And they were all for it and the women were all for it.

• 15:56Jack Selby?

  It's maybe because it's coming from a woman.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  I know, I think that's what it was.

• 16:00Jack Selby?

  That's like hating on girls online. Every girl's like, oh, my God, I'm not. You know what I mean?

• 16:04Graham Stephan?

  That's true.

• 16:04Jack Selby?

  But then if it's a guy hating, hating on guys, like, oh, you're fat, you're this, you're that. The guy's like, oh, OK, you're right.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was the part that I didn't even consider because it's like, yeah, I do the show every day. I talk about these things. We talk about, you know, societal ills and problems and did not consider the fact that this was coming from a young woman and also just like, no, like especially at the time, like I wasn't publicly with anybody. I wasn't married. I think that I was somebody that a lot of these guys probably looked to and liked. And to have like this figure in your life, turn around and say, hey, if you don't have a driver's license, you should probably get your life together.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that was like, that was the most, yeah, it was like heartbreaking because I felt so bad. It was like, it was not my intention at all. Like, this was supposed to be like a rallying cry. And so I ended up, because of what you're saying, I was like, I think that's probably why. So I called Chris Williamson, who's a good friend of mine. And I literally flew him out and I had him be on the show like two days later and had him watch the episode. And I was like, do you think I should have, you know, said anything differently? And his take was also the same. He was like, no, I say these things all the time, but you're a woman.

• 17:03Graham Stephan?

  It's like women giving dating advice. I see the same things of like, oh, a woman can't say what she wants because they don't know what they want. And but like objectively, it's good advice. But I think just young men in particular have that wall up. And it's funny you said all of that because Adam Carolla, who we just recently had on the podcast, did the exact same thing as you. He says his kids have zero drive to get their driver's license.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 17:27Graham Stephan?

  Because they could stay home and just order an Uber if they need to get somewhere. They could order Uber Eats if they want food.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Graham Stephan?

  Everything they need is at the house.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Graham Stephan?

  If they want to hang out together, they could hang out like virtually and play video games together. It's wild.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 17:42Graham Stephan?

  Kids, they don't want a driver's license.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  I know.

• 17:45Graham Stephan?

  I remember turning fifteen and a half on the day.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yes. And it's, and even me as a woman, like that was so, I just had never even, like, there was nowhere in the world of like possi-, like realm of possibilities that I would not get my driver's license. Like, you know, my fifteen birthday, going out and getting my learner's permit or whatever it is. And I had friends in L.A., um, when I was still an actor out there. One of my best friends, who was a year and a half older than me, gosh, when I left L.A., I was nineteen. She still didn't have a driver's license. She was twenty years old, lived at home, and her mom drove her to every audition, would drive her to, she did, worked at a, you know, coffee shop.

• 18:21Graham Stephan?

  What was her reason? Would you ask her about this?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was just like, oh, why would I get one? Like, my mom could drive me. And her mom was like, okay, yeah.

• 18:28Graham Stephan?

  So is that her fault or is that her mom's fault?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I think it's probably both. I think it's like, because I say both because at twenty years old, if you are, you know, you're not in college, but you've had a long career as a working actor, you make good money, you have a life. Like, she was dating, she was going to parties. Like, it was, like, her mom was, like, driving her to, like, house parties. And, like, I feel like there was something there where I was like, I didn't, like, would you want your mom dropping you off at, like, a guy's house that you're, like, sort of hooking up with? Like, it's just like, it's so.

• 18:58Graham Stephan?

  That's gotta be so awkward.

• 18:59Jack Selby?

  Picking her up at, like, eight in the morning.

• 19:00Graham Stephan?

  Oh, gosh.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, that's just like, I feel like it's a, like, that's just weird a little bit. Like, I, as a young person, I feel like, no, you, you should. But again, maybe that's me projecting on, you know, people who don't have that same drive, because it's a generational thing, so then it goes back to the parents. But I was like, don't you want that? And don't you want to be able to, like, go get in your car and drive yourself to your place of work or to a party or whatever and feel like an adult? And she's like, no. And it was just so wild to me. And then also, it's for sure on the mom, because she was enabling it. Whereas my mom, if I had done that, she would have had, like, a boot kicking my ass to the curb, being like, I'm, I've been driving children around for thirty years, like, you're my last one.

• 19:40Graham Stephan?

  She's an only child, your friend.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:43Graham Stephan?

  That's probably why.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 19:45Jack Selby?

  You're an only child, Graham.

• 19:47Graham Stephan?

  Yes.

• 19:49Graham Stephan?

  Takes one to know one.

• 19:52Jack Selby?

  When would you say is the last time you changed your mind in a big way? I'm sure a lot of you guys remember that last year, we actually had none other than Jordan Peterson here on this podcast. And on top of that, just being an incredible episode, it was a massive personal milestone for me, because I've listened to him for- Several years and he has absolutely changed my life with his lectures. Well, I'm so excited to announce a very special update from that episode. We have actually partnered with Peterson Academy to sponsor today's episode.

• 20:17Graham Stephan?

  For those unaware, Peterson Academy is Jordan Peterson's online university and it's open for enrollment right now. If you love learning, want to study under world-class professors, or have ever gained anything from Dr. Peterson's books, podcasts, or lectures, then this platform's for you.

• 20:31Jack Selby?

  Every single month, Peterson Academy releases four new, in-depth, eight-hour university-level courses, taught by top experts across philosophy, history, psychology, science, business, and more. These courses are seriously designed to keep you guys engaged, and they offer optional testing to solidify your understanding. Plus, there's also an online community where you can connect with other curious and ambitious learners.

• 20:51Graham Stephan?

  And it gets even better because Peterson Academy is getting funding, and so they've dropped the price from $599 down to $399 for the year for access to more than 40 courses with four new ones being added every single month. They also offer you a seven-day money-back guarantee, so there's no reason not to try it.

• 21:08Jack Selby?

  Just go to PetersonAcademy.com/ICH today to get started. Again, that is PetersonAcademy.com/ICH to start learning today. You guys will absolutely love it. Thank you so much to Peterson Academy for sponsoring this episode.

• 21:20Graham Stephan?

  Hey, by the way, I just want to say, we filmed this episode for about four hours long, and sometimes unfortunately with the YouTube algorithm, we can't post the entire thing. We have to edit certain parts down just for retention purposes and to maximize the reach it gets. So if you want to see the entire episode completely uncensored, the entire thing, no cuts whatsoever, and no sponsors, and no ads, the link to that is down below in the description. You can join as a member, and every episode from here on out, you're going to be able to see the full thing in its entirety, and it helps out the channel tremendously. So if you want to be a part of that and see all four hours of this episode, which was, it was a lot, the link is down below for you to join, and thank you so much.

• 22:01Jack Selby?

  When would you say is the last time you changed your mind in a big way?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  I think the biggest one was becoming pro-life, because I wasn't. Um, and I think I've had things where I've changed my perspective on things as I learn more information, as I have more experience, but nothing stands out like becoming pro-life was like, that's like a major, like, complete 180 shift. And I think that was just, you know, I was raised in, you know, splitting my time between Tennessee and Los Angeles. And I was, you know, in the Hollywood world and I just saw one thing and it, you know, I was raised by a mom who was very libertarian and we never really talked about abortion,

• 22:49Speaker 01

  but it made sense to me. It's like, no, why would I want the government to have any control over my body? Like our whole, I was raised to think that the government should not impact our personal, as we want them as far away from us as possible. Um, so this seems completely ridiculous. Like, I really only saw the issue from that perspective. I wasn't looking at it as a form of female empowerment or anything else. It was strictly like, man, that's feels like overreach. That's ridiculous. Like, I can do whatever I want. Um, and then my mind started to change when I went to college and I saw that it was more of a cultural issue than I had ever known. Like, I was in a sorority and I met girls who were on their, like, third or fourth abortion. And it was just something, I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go. And I was like, wait, wait, this is, this is not like

• 23:31Speaker 01

  safe, legal and rare that I, you know, when I would read, like, think pieces from Reason magazine and things like that. Um, that's not what they were talking about here. Like, this is a totally different issue when you get out into the real world and you look at young women, um, and young women, but really I was faced with young women. And also seeing the issue as a form of female empowerment and as this, like, feminist rallying cry that I can just go sleep with whoever I want with no repercussions and let a guy, like, use my body and then I'll just go, you know, discard the consequences. And that was incredibly difficult for me to reconcile because

• 24:09Speaker 01

  You know, I was raised with understanding the importance of personal responsibility like that. That's the number one thing in our house growing up. My mom likes to say that she raised us based on the principle of, I guess it's like natural consequence parenting is what they call it where you have to take responsibility for everything. Like if you make a choice, you are going to deal with the consequences, good or bad, and that is your punishment, basically. Like she's not going to go out of her way to punish you in some crazy way. It's like, no, you will just have to deal with the consequences of what you did. And I take that with me in my personal life outside of the home. I mean, it's just like that was, it grew outside of my childhood, obviously, because that was such an important principle that I was raised with. And so I was looking around the world that I was in.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I was like, none of these women are taking responsibility. They are intentionally like going out to these frat parties and sleeping around and not being on birth control, not using a frickin condom that is so easy to acquire. And then they're just gonna go and get their third abortion and act like it's nothing. And I was like, okay, so now this is an issue of a lack of personal responsibility. And so that is the first thing that really started to change my mind.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  And of course, you can make the argument about rape and incest, but that makes up 1% of abortion cases. And so it's like, we can have that as a totally separate conversation. And that's a very nuanced conversation. I think the entire abortion conversation should be one that is had with a lot of grace and a lot of empathy because it's, you know, I think I see it as black and white, but it's also not really because these are human lives and that are at stake and people are often in really awful situations. And I think sometimes people on the right make it make it hard to have people on the right and the left make it hard to have those kinds of nuanced conversations because they get so angry and emotional about this issue specifically. But that was the first thing that really started to change my mind because it was just a lack of responsibility. And then I went home and I started

• 25:58Speaker 01

  talking to my mom about it. And that's when I learned that my dad had wanted to have me aborted as a baby. And so that just completely blew it open because then suddenly I had like a personal tie to it. Where I was like, oh, I, I couldn't, like, there's a possibility that I couldn't be here. And I think that, you know, my life has such value and I'm so important to this family and I'm, you're like, it was just like so mind boggling to me that that could all just be taken away.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And then I just continued spiraling to the point where it ended. So that was like the last biggest, like, complete 180 on a policy.

• 26:33Graham Stephan?

  So I'm curious, you talked about that on a recent podcast with Sean Ryan.

• 26:39Graham Stephan?

  And you were talking about your, the relationship you had with your dad. And some of the things that you might want to tell him. Did your dad reach out to you after that podcast about those?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  I don't think he's listened to it. I'm actually seeing him. I'm seeing him tomorrow. And we're gonna talk, I think we might talk about, I'm gonna ask him if he'll watch it.

• 26:57Graham Stephan?

  Interesting.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  I don't know if he's watched it.

• 26:59Graham Stephan?

  I bet he has. And maybe he just wants to wait in person.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  We'll see, we'll see. But yeah.

• 27:04Graham Stephan?

  That's interesting.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I'll be interested to see how it, how it goes. Cause we've had, kind of like I said on Sean's show. We've had these conversations and like bits and pieces, but they have often been very fraught with emotion. They've come.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  And they've come up because of a conflict that is happening. And so I'd really love to be able to have it where it's like, no, we're just, you know, sitting down and talking through it. Cause I think that there's something.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I think there's something really special that happens when you become an adult. And I also said this on Sean's show where you start to see your parents as humans, but where they also see you as an adult. And I think that was probably the last thing that needed to happen for my father and I. Where it's like, I don't really need, like, I don't physically need him for anything. There wasn't anything that he held over me. Like, I don't need money. I don't need, uh, I don't need to, you know, come home on spring break or whatever it might be. It's like, no, we are two fully autonomous, independent people who are gonna choose to have this relationship. And I think that that's so powerful. I think that's why marriage is so powerful, because you're, this is like the person you're choosing. This is not somebody, you know, a family that you were born into. It's not blood, but you are choosing this.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  And I kind of see that in a way with, you know, a relationship that's like my dad's in mine, where I'm making an active choice to try to fix this and make it better.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  But I think we're taking away that, you know, like I need you or I'm dependent upon you is really, really helpful in that regard. I think that's like.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  I think that's the key to for setting boundaries in my mind like you know why the boundaries have to be in place and I think people are really great at setting boundaries, but it's hard to know when to kind of like remove the wall. And for me, it's like, have I done the work to put myself in a situation where I feel strong enough, secure enough, financially independent enough to be able to have this relationship and know that yeah, it might not be perfect, but I can handle it and you can handle it. We're adults now. So I think that's kind of where we're at. So we're interested to see how the conversation.

• 29:05Graham Stephan?

  How do you prepare yourself to have an uncomfortable conversation like that? Are you nervous?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 29:10Graham Stephan?

  Really?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  It's funny. I am really bad at confrontation. Conversation is really hard for me. I'm like a major people pleaser, but I'm pretty good at like heart to hearts. So if it's like angry and volatile, oh, I'm like a wimp. I just melt. Like there are situations where even recently, like things I've been talking about with my team where it's, you know, people have requested meetings or X, Y, Z. And I'm like, that's not a room that I should be in. Like, I know that I will agree to something, say something that I don't actually want to do or stand behind because I am desperate to like make a situation better or fix something. And it's just like, I can't, I just know myself too well. And that's something

• 29:51Speaker 01

  I'm actively working on. And that might come from being a child actor in Hollywood and the fact that your entire job is to try to like mold yourself to please people and also with my family and how chaotic it was. But um, yeah, confrontation is very, very hard, but I know myself. So but I, in this kind of situation where it's like, you know, again, there's no volatile, like, there's nothing to be angry about now. It's like, now we're just going to try to put the pieces together so we can have a great life together.

• 30:20Graham Stephan?

  What's something that you're hoping to understand from that conversation?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  You know, one thing I would love to understand.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  I guess that's kind of what

• 30:32Speaker 01

  this is just a question I've always had is like, what did my dad expect out of parenthood? Or what did he want? Because it was never really clear. To me, it was always very clear with my mom. She like always wanted to have kids, was very intentional about the way that she parented. Is still very intentional with the way that she treats us today as adults. And I never really understood with my dad, like it was never, he was in and out.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  You know, without, I always hate sort of questions like this because it's, they're good questions, but I'm always like, how much of it is my story to tell and how much is his story to tell? And that's very difficult, but as a kid, it's like, you weren't always there, like physically and emotionally. And it was more about you than it was about like the family unit and your children. And so were we the driving force or was it something else? It's just like, that's always been a kind of a lingering question for me.

• 31:29Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, I think it could be scary to be like a parent.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  I'm sure.

• 31:33Graham Stephan?

  And so I think that's probably a lot of it.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, their marriage was not great. And so they didn't have, I don't, I think, I don't think they had the right, I don't think he had the right partners to support him in that. I don't think my mom had the right partner, which obviously makes it hard. So there was just a myriad of factors and he's become a much better partner post divorce and post us being adults, which is unfortunate that it didn't happen. And we were, you know, younger, but it's still like, you know, life doesn't get easier when you grow up, your family unit doesn't become suddenly less complicated, like we're still dealing with the fact that my brother is still a schizophrenic. And we deal with that every single day. And my dad has become more and more involved in that, which is so incredible.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Because now my mom has another person that she can lean on when she has been the primary advocate and caregiver for years and years and years. And that kind of like fell on me in a way and my dad wasn't involved and now he is.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  And so I think it's, you know, your, your family will continue evolving and changing and growing and life is always full of challenges and things that you have to grow from and overcome. And so it's like, if you can rebuild that foundation or just give it some. Uh, give it some strength going into that. I think it's like better late than never. And I'm grateful that it's happening now, at least.

• 32:49Jack Selby?

  I think the idea of taking control of your life and taking maximal responsibility for where you are is really one of the most defining factors and like whether or not you're somewhat successful in your own regard or not successful.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  For true.

• 33:02Jack Selby?

  How do you think you were able to like face those challenges when you were younger, but still go towards the light side rather than towards the other way around? Like, what was the, was it, like you said, how you faced consequences as a kid? So you were forced to take responsibility for where you were at?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I think that's a big part of it, just because it was ingrained in my childhood and basically how I was disciplined and punished. So it just kind of became, um, punish is a strong word because I was never really a-

• 33:29Jack Selby?

  What was like a consequence that you paid?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Okay. I've never told this story. I once stole from a Goodwill. I went on like a shoplifting spree.

• 33:36Jack Selby?

  You, how old were you?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Uh, like eight, probably. And I-

• 33:41Graham Stephan?

  Funny, like this is a few months ago.

• 33:42Jack Selby?

  Yeah, yeah. Did you know how bad it was, what you were doing? Or were you kind of just like, ah, you know?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  I mean, like I sort of knew, but I was like, it's a Goodwill. Like, it's not that bad. But we all-

• 33:51Jack Selby?

  They give their money to charity if you're gonna take from anything.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Uh, but I was like, it's so cheap. Um, but we like always shopped at thrift stores growing up. And we still do, but my mom like furnished our entire house with like consignment stores and Craigslist. And Alex and I basically furnished our entire house also with like Facebook Marketplace. So it runs in the family now. But we would always go to Goodwill and I don't know why I like slipped these things into my pocket, but there were like these big like cost, pieces of like costume jewelry that were like sitting up on the counter. And I was just like, I'll take these. And my mom found out about it. And first of all, I think it really helps to have such a strong relationship with your kids and for your kids to respect the parent so much because the moment that my mom walked into my room and I saw it on her face,

• 34:37Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm like, I'm doomed. And I was so disappointed in myself because I could see that I had disappointed her, but- I had to, you know, call them and say, like, she gave me the phone number and I had to call and say, I took necklaces from you. And then she had to drive me over and I had to walk in by myself and say, I'm really sorry. And I was like, you know, shitting bricks, basically, of like terrified of like if I'm gonna go to jail or whatever it was. But I had to go in and be like, I'm really, really sorry. And you like to have that uncomfortable conversation with this goodwill, you know, manager who did not care, was like, I'm being paid by the hour. Why do I care if you stole a couple of necklaces? But for me as a kid, I was probably seven or eight. Um, it was terrifying. And that's the example that always like sticks out. And I'm sure that there were more,

• 35:19Speaker 01

  there were, I don't remember what the consequence was, but there were things when I wouldn't be, oh, this was a big one. If I wasn't prepared, she wouldn't catch me, basically. Like, I would do, um, I was in gymnastics, I did dance, I played the violin for a little bit, and I had did, um, like piano and singing. And I had to, you know, you have to study before all that. You have to work on your routine or you have to stretch. And we had like a little, my mom had made, gotten all these mats for our garage. And so I could like practice my gymnastics. And if I came unprepared, there was no like, oh, she was really busy with school or whatever. It was like, yeah, sorry. You weren't prepared, so you have to go on stage and do your violin recital and you don't know the song.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  And it was like the natural consequence of that. There was no like, she was like, yeah, you want to do this, you know, sing the song, you want to, you know, do the dance recital, whatever it may be. I'm not going to keep you in line to put you on a schedule to make sure that you're ready. You just have to do it. And if you don't, then you're going to get up on stage and you're going to be unprepared in front of people that you respect.

• 36:23Graham Stephan?

  Embarrassment is really like the best learning lesson out there.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And in both of those, I was embarrassed. Yeah. And then you're embarrassed in front of your parent that you respect so much. And then I, because it was so ingrained in me, I was so disappointed in myself. I was like, I know I can be better and better than this. So that probably started it from a young age. But also, I think like, I don't know if it's a personality trait or something.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  But I was always, and it's so weird to say this, like now I look at young kids and I'm like, are you guys having thoughts that are like this? But I remember being super young, like being somewhere in like the eight to 11 range, being like, just looking around at my family and my world and going, this is not normal. Like this is very dysfunctional and intentionally being like, this isn't what I want for my life. It was like so clear how dysfunctional and how unhappy it was. I think I was really blessed to, you know, see great examples of families and, you know, parents who really loved each other and kids who seemed to have really great home lives. And I was like, I want that. Like, I know it's out there. And so I think from a young age, I was

• 37:25Speaker 01

  kind of, I knew that my situation was not normal and I didn't want it to continue. I never wanted to feel like that was normal. So I was always kind of thinking about breaking a cycle.

• 37:34Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. You unlocked a memory when you were talking about stealing stuff.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 37:37Graham Stephan?

  I stole, I stole something, Jay.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  What did you steal?

• 37:39Graham Stephan?

  You stole two?

• 37:40Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Graham Stephan?

  I was probably about six years old.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:43Graham Stephan?

  And there was a place my mom would take me to go and get haircuts. And then after you get a haircut, being like six years old, the bowl cut, you know, the 90s bowl cut.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  I had that.

• 37:52Graham Stephan?

  They would have this basket of candy and you get to take a piece of candy after you got the haircut.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:58Graham Stephan?

  Well, I took a piece of candy and then no one was looking and I grabbed another piece of candy. It was a lollipop. And I remember pulling it out like in the car. My mom was like, you grabbed another one? And I, I, I think I lied. I was like, no, I didn't. But I remember her taking me back in.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:16Graham Stephan?

  And apologizing to the person and putting it back.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Graham Stephan?

  And I was so humiliated that one, I was caught, but then also I have to go and say sorry.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Oh, it's awful. Yeah.

• 38:26Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. That was the last time I did that.

• 38:28Jack Selby?

  That's hilarious because you haven't changed at all. Like that didn't make an impact on Graham. Anytime we go anywhere, Graham's always trying to get more than whatever he paid for. Not in like a way of like overt stealing, like thievery, but he will do that.

• 38:42Graham Stephan?

  I negotiate.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  The high of that second lollipop.

• 38:45Graham Stephan?

  I just try to negotiate.

• 38:46Jack Selby?

  The second one's better than the first because you know where it came from.

• 38:50Graham Stephan?

  I got a discount recently on car repairs.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:52Graham Stephan?

  Macy's car went into the shop and I got like 300 bucks off just asking.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  I don't know if this is like a male or female thing. So I don't know if you like negotiate. I hate negotiating.

• 39:02Jack Selby?

  I hate it. It makes me really uncomfortable.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Really? Okay, so maybe, I don't know, but like my husband, it's like, I cannot get on the phone and do anything like that. Like, he just bought his little sister's new car for her. Like, she's buying it, but he called the dealership, got the whole deal, negotiated down this thing, and he's not even being a, like, playing hardball or anything. He's just asking very pointed questions, like, hey, we got, you know, we got this offer from another dealership. And I would be like, no, I'm playing.

• 39:27Jack Selby?

  It's a people pleaser.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:28Jack Selby?

  Because I associate with that too. Graham is absolutely not that type, and he will negotiate everything.

• 39:32Graham Stephan?

  I get such like, like a win from this. Like, I just unlocked another one. Um, we replaced tires on the car.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:38Graham Stephan?

  And the price was, was a price that I thought was a little hot.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:42Graham Stephan?

  And so I got the price down, and I say, how about this? How about can we throw in at least a year warranty on the tires? And the guy behind the guy was thought about, yeah, you know what, I could do that. And so I got a discount on the tires, plus a one-year warranty on the tires.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Don't have never even thought to ask.

• 39:59Graham Stephan?

  And this is like a few hundred bucks.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:01Graham Stephan?

  And so when I look at the time, I'm like, I spent five minutes on that call, and I saved 200 bucks. That's a great ROI on the time. And you could do this across anything.

• 40:11Jack Selby?

  I think, I think that's good, and I think in a relationship, one of the people.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  You have to have that.

• 40:16Jack Selby?

  It's good to have one of them to be that person.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Because otherwise it's gonna be a mess.

• 40:19Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  That's why I have a really good lawyer to do that for me. Well, Alex will also do it for me, but that's why I have somebody else.

• 40:25Jack Selby?

  So, so if you get a steak or something, and it comes out, you order it medium rare, comes out like, you know, well done or medium well, will you say something, or do you?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No, I have Alex say it.

• 40:33Jack Selby?

  Yeah, okay, I'm the same way.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  I'm just like, I can't.

• 40:35Jack Selby?

  Graham will come, like, he'll sit down in a restaurant that's packed with people, and be like, it's a little chilly in here. Like, excuse me, waiter, can you bring it up a couple?

• 40:44Speaker 01

  I love that though, that's great.

• 40:46Graham Stephan?

  The music. If the music in the restaurant's too loud.

• 40:49Jack Selby?

  He talks about it.

• 40:50Graham Stephan?

  I'll say, I'll say, can you just turn down the music a little bit?

• 40:53Speaker 01

  And it's like, you're the, you're like a good Karen. You're like somebody who's like helping, like, Karens get such a bad rap, but you're like making the entire experience better for everybody.

• 41:02Graham Stephan?

  I won't do it unilaterally. Like, if we're in a group, I'll get the group consensus, like, hey, is it just me, or is the music kind of loud? Jack will be like, yeah, the music's a little loud. Is music loud? Yeah, okay. Then I'll say something. It's not just like, I'm the only one. Like, are you cold? Yeah, you're cold, you're cold, you're cold.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Making the experience better for everyone.

• 41:20Graham Stephan?

  Exactly.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:21Graham Stephan?

  And then the music turns down.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:23Graham Stephan?

  So it works.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. I love that you guys have Magic Mind because I used to take those. I think they were like worked on comment section for a while as an advertiser.

• 41:30Graham Stephan?

  Really?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:31Graham Stephan?

  That's so cool.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  They're great.

• 41:32Graham Stephan?

  You know what's funny? They, uh, they sent us these like over a year ago. Like not these ones.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Graham Stephan?

  But I started drinking them and I had them before every single podcast we would film. No joke. And then I accidentally put these in my backpack. And we arrived somewhere and I was looking through them like, oh my gosh, I got Magic Mind. And so I gave them to Jack. And what's cool about these is that we could take them through TSA and they're below the liquid limit.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Really?

• 41:59Graham Stephan?

  So, yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't even think about that. That's actually sick.

• 42:01Graham Stephan?

  I stuffed like six of these in my backpack. I take them everywhere we go and we have them during every single podcast. And then they reached out afterwards like, can we sponsor your podcast? We're like, absolutely. So it's because of Magic Mind that we're able to go and like actually rent out a full on studio like this. The, uh, the flights here for some reason were really expensive for Jack and I. I don't know.

• 42:23Jack Selby?

  They were really expensive.

• 42:24Graham Stephan?

  Actually, to come here.

• 42:25Jack Selby?

  Graham texts me, he's like, oh shoot, man. Like these.

• 42:27Graham Stephan?

  You know what was funny? I was actually trying to like price match the, I was like taking a look at the prices and watching the prices.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  That's, oh, it's like a commitment.

• 42:35Jack Selby?

  We were not gonna drive now.

• 42:35Graham Stephan?

  But Magic Mind makes it possible. So if you guys want to try them out, the link is down below in the description. They're kind enough to sponsor the podcast and they taste amazing. It's like an energy, mental performance shot. It's how I'm able to stay like so focused on a bit of a lack of sleep. This, this would be my second one now that I've had today. So again, the link is down below in the description. We got a special coupon code for you guys to get started. They're honestly delicious.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  They actually are. That's, it's like shocking. You would expect something like that to be nasty and they taste fantastic, actually. They really do.

• 43:05Graham Stephan?

  Well, we'll talk to them and we'll have them sponsor you guys too.

• 43:08Jack Selby?

  What would you say is the most unfair criticism you've received since getting popular?

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Just, it's like, oh, she's super hateful just because of my politics. Um, cause that's only a comment that's like the most common thing that I'll get from people who dislike me or disagree with me. And I think it's unfair because it's. More of an ad hominem attack rather than looking at the actual issue that I'm presenting. And I also, in terms of people who are online, talking about political and social things, feel like I'm a lot more relaxed than a lot of people. And I also approach things with more of a common sense perspective. And I think I'm a lot more empathetic than many people online, like where a lot of people are just trying to get clicks or whatever it might be, or say the thing that is the most outlandish. Like, I really try to avoid

• 43:54Speaker 01

  doing that, especially with this new show, where I have more time, like during the week, to put the episodes together. And I have, you know, these are longer episodes than my original, like, eight to 10 minute things. Like, I'm really, really trying to be intentional about, am I understanding every side of this issue? Am I talking to the right people? Am I offering a, you know, a broad overview of it so that I can really get to the crux of the issue and make sure that everybody, like, is heard, where it's not just me blabbering on? And so I think that's always felt a bit unfair, because it's, but also, I don't think it's totally unfair, because I don't know me. So it's hard for me to say that, because it's like, like, if you watch the video in full, like, I'm not, like, what you see that somebody clipped on TikTok really isn't the entire picture of what I'm making. So

• 44:38Speaker 01

  in that way, it kind of feels unfair. But that's also just the internet. And I can't expect people to watch every video. And also, yeah, and they don't know me, they don't know what my intentions are. I can't make that, you know, totally clear in every single second of everything that I do.

• 44:49Graham Stephan?

  Where do you draw the line between how much you're willing to share and be public about?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  I think it is like a case by case basis, because I just did this, like, four hour long interview where I basically shared everything there is to know about my childhood and that sort of thing. And it was more than I had ever done before. I share a lot more than I ever anticipated. And I had a conversation with Alex the night before. We were driving back from dinner at Sean's house. And we had a long conversation about my brother, because I was kind of giving Sean the update about what was going on with my brother Reed. And, you know, he had just gotten to Tennessee, and he was in this hospital. And he had asked if we could talk about it. And I was like, I'll let you know in the morning. I was kind of going over all this, again, because of what I was saying of, like, it's my story, but it also is somebody else's story. And it's really, like, that is really hard for me. Whereas I think if you are somebody who doesn't have a platform, and you're not going

• 45:37Speaker 01

  to be on a podcast with millions and millions of views, it's like, I'm just going to tell my friend about what's going on in my personal life, and what's happening with my brother, and the last time that I went and, like, went to visiting hours. And that's like, it just feels totally different than when you're like sitting down and you know it's gonna be super public. And so, you know, I was talking with Alex about that and he was like, if there's a, you know, if there's any podcasts to do it on, it's like Sean Ryan, uh, for sure. Like that's kind of what people, you know, go on and they, uh, they trauma dump in a really beautiful way. Um, but that was like talking about my dad's attempt. I ne- like, I never thought I would ever talk about that, ever. And that was something that was so,

• 46:16Speaker 01

  like, I felt protective over him, but I also felt shame from my side because it's just like another layer of this like story of like, oh, this kid and she had all this crap going. Anyway, it was just very complicated. And I think it's something that I've carried with me more than I really thought. Um, and like genuinely never thought I would ever talk about it. And it just, you know, kind of spur of the moment came out. I texted my mom right after and I was like, hope nobody's angry, but I talked about this. So I think that it's case by case of, you know, what am I willing to share? And I also think it comes down to like, how important is it? Like I felt like in the moment, talking about my dad's attempt was important because it was something I hadn't shared before.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  And it's also something that I carried a deep sense of, again, it was like shame and confusion over. I felt very lonely. I'd never, I didn't know anybody else who had had anything like that. Um, but I know that there are people who have gone through that and whose parents have actually been successful in there. It's a hard, horrible way to say that, but have actually committed. And it's incredibly, it's like an awful club to be in. And it's like, if I could help somebody by sharing that, if I could maybe make somebody feel less alone, then there's a positive to it. But it's like, what's the positive of just like letting a reporter into my house, I guess? And so if I think that it can do some good and shed light on an important issue or make people feel less alone,

• 47:42Speaker 01

  then I will absolutely talk about it with as much grace and, you know, protecting the people that I want to protect.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  But if it, you know, if that same outcome can be achieved without me exposing people in my life or exposing much of like, personal things, then yeah.

• 47:58Graham Stephan?

  What were some of the letters you received or the reception from?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. The most amazing ones were...

• 48:05Graham Stephan?

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• 49:30Graham Stephan?

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• 50:00Jack Selby?

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• 50:18Graham Stephan?

  The offer, by the way, is for new US customers with minimum financial commitment. See if you qualify for half off at oracle.com/iced. Again, oracle.com/iced with the link down below in the description. Thank you so much, Oracle, for sponsoring this episode. What were some of the letters you received or the reception from?

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. The most amazing ones were, I'll tear up talking about this. I got two emails from kids who went to high school, my brothers, who just had no idea who I was, didn't know that I had a show, but like, listened to Sean. And they found my manager's email and sent me these long notes about the impact that my brothers had made on their lives. And it came at like, the perfect time because my mom has been really kind of going through it at the moment, and we're having to make some hard decisions about my brother, the surviving twin. And to get these letters from these young men who knew them, who still think about David and the impact that his death had on them and that his life had on them, and being worried

• 51:17Speaker 01

  about Reed and, you know, saying he was so wonderful and we had so many great memories together and we were on this team together. It was like, that was so special. And I had, you know, my biggest fear is that they're forgotten. And because their lives, their lives are important, and they did make an impact. And as everybody's lives move on, you can't expect that everybody's lives like, continue to revolve around these people that are so important to you. And even though it's like, my life still kind of does revolve around them in a lot of ways. I think about both of them every single day. It's really, really beautiful and healing to have people come out of the woodwork and say, I still think about them. They've still made an impact. I tell people stories about them. It's like, that's the most special thing. That's all you can hope for. So, that was wonderful because

• 52:02Speaker 01

  I, especially with David, I never want anybody to, you know, forget his name. So, that was a big part of it. And I've just gotten so many DMs from people who...

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Are in similar situations, but and some that are even worse, especially with family members with severe mental illness, who just feel so stuck. And I don't feel like my family is fully stuck, but the system is really not set up to help people like my brother succeed. And it's not set up to help the family succeed at all. And again, kind of being on the other side of it, it was very validating, I think, for people who listen to Sean's interview and for then me to receive DMs like this, for people to say like, we're also in the trenches, like, it's not just you. We also have no idea what to do with long-term care. There are no long-term care options for, you know, people with schizophrenia or, you know, serious mental health issues where they cannot be in the home.

• 52:54Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, for mental health, how would you change the system?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  The first thing that I would do if I was in charge was, would be to change the, the diet and lifestyle of patients like my brother who are in mental health facilities and treatment centers. Where, yeah, I've been doing a lot of research recently, trying to figure out what options are available to us as family and to him. And there's some great ones and there's like private ones, and they're very expensive. And you look at all these things and everything that they offer, and there's nothing about nutrition or lifestyle. Meanwhile, you have all of these studies that are coming out that have been coming out for years, but it's like people are just now catching on about the impact of sugar and glucose on the brain, of the gut-brain connection, of the fact that, and we know

• 53:38Speaker 01

  anecdotally, people who have had major success in completely changing their diets and being able to control their schizophrenic symptoms, their bipolar symptoms. And you go into these hospitals and it's like, I'll go visit my, my brother. And we sit down in this like very cold, sterile, you know, cafeteria. Also, the environment of these hospitals, it's literally like a jail.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, kind of has to be that way in some cases because there's a lot of people who are a danger to society. And so it's a locked facility, but it's incredibly sterile. I can't hug my brother.

• 54:15Graham Stephan?

  Really?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  It's I'm not in this facility specifically, I can't, I'm not allowed to hug you, can't touch. And it's like when they turned their back, like I was there with a nurse a couple of weeks ago. And she was like, I'm, you know, not supposed to hug, but she would like turn around, walked out the room. So I was able to give him a hug, but it's so cold. And so that's a whole, but we like back to the food part, we sit down and we were having this conversation, they'll bring us some food, like, do you want any snacks? And they'll bring like a soda and a bag of honey grams. And I'm like, Reid, what are you eating in here? And it's like awful, awful hospital food. And it's like, you have this, it's not, you have this incredible, unfortunate opportunity where it's like somebody like my brother who might be on like a 5150 hold, which is a, like they did not check themselves in, they were brought in by the police.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  You have an incredible opportunity where they can't leave to try to make some change in their lifestyle, whether that is working out, if there is an area where they can go take a walk, or even if it's just, hey, we're not going to give you honey grams. We're going to make sure that you are eating a high protein, you know, lower carb diet that, you know, hopefully we could clean up your, you know, your gut health, have some kombucha or, you know, something.

• 55:20Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  There's nothing. And it's like, my brother has, he was in, he was in a hospital in Idaho for three years on an involuntary hold. And we weren't able to see him at all throughout that three year period because it was kind of on the tail end of COVID. They had really, really strict regulations, no visitors allowed. So he was in this awful, awful environment. That's where he went nonverbal. He doesn't speak anymore. So sometime in that three years in this, you know, I'm grateful that he was safe, but it definitely was not the most nourishing environment. He stopped speaking. But he was there for three years and nothing changed. It only got worse.

• 55:58Graham Stephan?

  Do they have him in isolation?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  It's very isolated. Yeah. They have like, they'll have a room.

• 56:03Graham Stephan?

  Something.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:05Graham Stephan?

  If that's the point where he stops speaking, there's got to be something there.

• 56:09Jack Selby?

  That seems like it would not like even hold it at the same level, but it would get worse.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:13Jack Selby?

  If you're, if you can't even hug him, it makes them not only.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  He feels inhuman.

• 56:17Graham Stephan?

  Right.

• 56:18Jack Selby?

  Yeah. It makes them feel like crazy.

• 56:20Graham Stephan?

  But the diet too, like serving sodas, it seems like that's the easiest thing to fix.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  It is.

• 56:24Graham Stephan?

  Just serve water.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:26Graham Stephan?

  And that's cheaper than soda.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it feels so common sense of like.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Maybe it won't fix all the problems, but it could certainly help them feel a little better. I mean, just like if I go out and, you know, I have a margarita and I have a big thing of chips and queso and I get a skillet cookie at the end of the night, I feel like crap the next morning. We all do. Your brain feels icky and it's like, imagine already dealing with the weight of a serious mental illness and you feel like that 24/7 with the addition of the crap food that they're feeding you. It's just, it's appalling because you have this, again, you had three years with my brother and he went backwards. I guess like, what does a society, do we do with individuals who like the system is not actually trying to rehabilitate? And again, the asylum system was not perfect,

• 57:17Speaker 01

  but there was a long-term solution. And so I think, I mean, that is the reason my homelessness is the way that it is across the country. And, you know, Donald Trump has talked about this in like passing of like, we need to bring back some sort of system to help clean up our streets because in my experience of, you know, Reed was homeless for many years of going out and finding him and being with him and engaging with his homeless community, they're not like down on their luck trying to get a job. Like those people, they get to a homeless shelter, they get a room, they get a job. And they take all of the resources and they put them to getting their life back on track. The majority of the people that Reed was around, that I interacted with, that we engaged with on this like entire weird journey of kind of him being homeless and-

• 58:02Speaker 07

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• 58:14Speaker 02

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• 58:17Speaker 01

  I guess of just my adolescents, they all were basically choosing to be homeless because they made a lot of money from the government, because it was easier to get drugs and because they were crazy and didn't want to have a job or couldn't have a job. And/or they were like-

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Too mentally ill to be accepted into homeless like shelters.

• 58:36Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, that's been our experience in Los Angeles.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 58:40Graham Stephan?

  Because we're close by Venice.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:41Graham Stephan?

  And just a lot of what we saw was not people down on their luck. I'm sure that existed. And it's weird because I did a lot of research because I saw the problem is getting worse.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 58:52Graham Stephan?

  And the studies show that a lot of these people are down on their luck.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:57Graham Stephan?

  And the studies say that it's because rental prices are too high. And rent control isn't protective enough. And it's kicking people out. But what I've seen 90 plus percent.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:09Graham Stephan?

  Is more mental health, drug related issues.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:13Graham Stephan?

  And I don't know what came first, if it was drugs and then mental health.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:18Graham Stephan?

  Or mental health, which then led to drugs.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  A lot of it comes sides, yeah.

• 59:21Graham Stephan?

  But that's what I saw. And a lot of the people just aren't in the mental capacity.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:27Graham Stephan?

  To ever work.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:28Graham Stephan?

  To get into homeless shelters to try to pull themselves up.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  They can't.

• 59:32Graham Stephan?

  And they're just kind of left on the street.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Survive in a halfway house.

• 59:35Graham Stephan?

  Right.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like it's, my brother has been able to be in halfway house situations where it's like he gets money from the government and that he uses that to pay his rent. And there will be like a person that is there to help him drive around and get groceries and take you to your doctor's appointment. And they like check on you and make sure you're good and you're there. But there are times when he has not even been fit enough to be in that environment. And where they've like, all right, here's your new room. And then it's like, okay, no, he's not there yet. It's a very nonpartisan issue that I wish was talked about more. And like I see, like, as you were talking about the studies, like the ACLU is so against bringing back any kind of like long term care. Because they're like, no, we need like community support and rental prices need to go down. But I'm like, again, you're missing like the crux of the issue. Um, so yeah, I hope that there can be some change.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  I'm, you know, talking to some folks about like, well, what hopefully I could do with this platform. But, um, that's very hard. It impacts obviously millions and millions of people. So I don't even know what the, what the real solution is. But what's happening now is not working and it's not working for families. It's not working for the men and women that are in these situations. And it's certainly not working for our cities based on what we're seeing on the streets. I mean, it's just like a desolate.

• 1:00:45Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Desolate system.

• 1:00:46Graham Stephan?

  Is there anything that you've regretted being so open about? Or that you look back on and just think, I wish I didn't say that, or I wish I didn't share this part of myself?

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  I think even if there are things where people have had opinions on them or it's like it's still my life.

• 1:01:05Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Um, and it hasn't made a huge impact on me. I've often gone back and forth about.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  And we did prior to doing this, but like of Alex having any kind of like public anything. Um, and we ended up, and I'm glad that we did because I think hiding it only makes, you know, people don't know anything that they want to. It was just hard for him because people were like finding out things about him and looking into his family and that kind of stuff. Um.

• 1:01:32Graham Stephan?

  Did people find it? Because I remember you posted a photo. I think you put like a, like an emoji over his face. Or there was like you guys hugging, but it was like the back of his.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  It was when we got engaged. It was the first time I had ever talked about ever being in a relationship or even like showed remotely who he was. And it was just back of his head. And I was like, cause I think people should know that I'm like, you're zeroing on my finger like engaged. Um, and then we kind of had six months of figuring out whether he wanted his face to be shown or whether he wanted to be talked about. Um.

• 1:02:03Graham Stephan?

  Did people guess it right? In the beginning, because I saw like a lot of the comments were, I think it's this person. They'd start linking to profiles and like doing detective.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  There were a couple of people who like through Reddit had like known somebody who knew me and said something there and they were like, okay, I'm looking at the back of his head. And I could see this tagged photo. This guy looks, I mean, it was just a whole thing. And so that was.

• 1:02:25Graham Stephan?

  So a few people did get it right.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think that was one of the reasons why I was like, okay, and Alex and I had a conversation and, um, I was like, they're going to find out who you are anyway. And so you just tell me what you want to do. And he was like, yeah, I don't care. Like, as long as you're protected. That was his like main thing is like, as long as you are safe and our family is safe, like I'll do whatever it needs to be. But it was like, I never wanted to like thrust that upon him and be like, here's my new boyfriend. Like take a picture. Cause it's like.

• 1:02:51Graham Stephan?

  Any part of you that thought, maybe I should just leave this separate and never mention it?

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  There was, but I didn't feel like that was, I didn't feel like that was super genuine. Because I share so much else. Like even on comment section, which was like a new show, I think the reason why. It kind of worked and was different than a lot of other like newsy shows was because it wasn't just that I was reading headlines and going through stories, but I was relating it to things in my life. I was sharing stories of, oh, I had this experience. I talked very openly and I felt like if I just completely hide this and close it off, and especially with being, I think that might be easier for older generations or people that are more in like the news corporate media where you kind of just know them as, you know, the woman that you see on your TV, but you don't know anything about your personal life. But it's

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  like, I had a huge social media following. People would, I would post things on my personal life on Instagram. I would share these personal stories on YouTube. It's like, that feels like a very, like a very just weird thing to hide. And I didn't feel like, didn't feel right to me because it was gonna, this was obviously impacting a lot of, you know, the moves that I would be making and the things that I believe and the things that were happening in my life. And I was like, what if one day I just pop up and I'm pregnant? People are like, what happened there? Like, it's just crazy. So the thought did cross my mind because it's definitely easier and you want to protect somebody that you love. And I was like, I've chosen to be somebody that's online, but you didn't. And so, I mean, it's kind of choosing

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  by marrying me, but this wasn't your, your end all be all. And that's one of the reasons why I love him is because he's so private.

• 1:04:27Graham Stephan?

  So I'm curious, because I see some of the comments and it seems like a lot of guys have internet crushes on you. Did that lead to a weird dynamic between you and your now husband?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Not at all, because he was, I think, unthreatened. He was just like, that's fine. But yeah, I'm asked about that a lot. And, you know, I'm not somebody who feeds into it. I think that it would be a very different conversation if I was a girl who like posted bikini photos all the time and was on like OnlyFans or whatever it is. But I, it's like, it's just being a girl on the internet and people are gonna think what they're gonna think. And that's fine. And I, if you are posting the like sad gifs every time I post any picture, like, that's fine. I laugh about it. I know he looked at it as just kind of like, that's really sweet. That's like, great. And he's not threatened by it at all. He's like the most. Like understated, secure, unflappable man I've ever met.

• 1:05:19Jack Selby?

  Would you say that's boosted your confidence overall, like all of those comments and the memes and everything? Or would you say it's been an overall negative thing?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. I think it's been kind of neutral because it just overwhelmed me at first. Like when I saw that, I was like, oh, I just, I don't know. I don't put myself out there that way. I don't even like think of myself as any kind of, I don't know, it's weird to think of yourself in some kind of like, like romantic or like, oh, people like you way. Like, it's like very weird. And so they just like crack me up, I guess. But yeah, it's not a, the negative part of it comes when there's like, people that are like too obsessed and then it becomes like, physical and you encounter it in your real life and then it's like, okay, well, don't have to have.

• 1:05:58Jack Selby?

  Have you encountered that?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:01Jack Selby?

  What's been the experience?

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Um, thankfully it's few and far between, but um, and I've not had to have like, physical altercations or that kind of thing, but I do have,

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  as I think most, especially like women in the public eye, like I've had a few stalkers and that kind of thing. And men who have like moved to Nashville.

• 1:06:20Jack Selby?

  Are you serious?

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. And a great team and thankfully I'm able to like,

• 1:06:24Jack Selby?

  Holy crap.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Have people who are really good at what they do, who, you know,

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  make sure that I'm protected. But I think that that's where, when it crosses the line of like, oh, that's really sweet. You like me and you know, like, oh, I want a wife like Brett. I want a girl like Brett. I'm like, that's great. That's really sweet. I hope you find them. Like, that's awesome. But when it crosses the line of like, oh, this is, the emails are threatening or this is odd and why are you following my friends around? Like thankfully they have not like gotten to me, but have gotten people close to me.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  And that's something, it was interesting. I was asked about that recently for a piece. And the reporter was asking if that was like, if it had become normal. It's like, no, that's not normal. Like you become accustomed to it and you become, I guess accustomed is not even the right word, but you kind of become prepared and you have like a system in place and it's like, it's not shocking to me. But I never want that to be normal. I never, I think it's a very weird. Like wrinkle in the human experience to have so many eyes on you and to like be thinking about that. And I never want it to be something that's like, ah, stalker or whatever. It's like, no, that's never, that's like objectively.

• 1:07:35Graham Stephan?

  It's gotta start hitting them off, defending them off.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, so that's just kind of a, it unfortunately comes with the territory. But for like, for 99% of the time, like I genuinely, I have the most incredible like community of people who watch my show, who engage with my content. Like they're so smart. They're so kind. They care so much about personal development is like the biggest thing that I see. Like the questions that I get are not questions about like, what are you wearing? Or like, what do you use to do your hair? Like I'll get like one girl ask that if I like, she sees me at an event or something like that, or even like asking to like date me or whatever it is. They're, you know, they're emotional questions. They're like, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. And I have these four paths that are ahead of me. Like I could just go work for my family's company. I could go, um, intern here. I could

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  go to a trade school. I could opt out of college, whatever it is. And I'm really struggling. It's like intense things that they are, that a lot of young people are kind of muddling through and figuring out. And like, those are the big questions that I.

• 1:08:34Graham Stephan?

  I would love to see you give business advice, where people could call in in their twenties.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Graham Stephan?

  And just say, I have these paths, just like you said, should I do this business or this business? I want to hear you just break it apart.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  That's what I do. So I'm like similar. Um, so I was obsessed with Dear Abby growing up and that was like the column in the newspaper. Um, and so I have something on my like subscriber platform. It's called Cooper Confidential, where it's called Dear Brett. And so people send in questions and then I like pick five or six of them and people can upvote and downvote what they want to hear. Um, and I go through and we basically do that. Um, and they range from like career advice and school advice to like family things. I think I mentioned this one on the Sean interview, but there was a girl who, um, I think the last two really meaningful ones were, it was a young woman whose grandfather had, has Parkinson's and he had like lashed out at her and had physically

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  hurt her by accident. And she kind of knows a little bit of my story about my brother. And obviously if you have ever met anybody with schizophrenia, there are, you know. There are things that can happen and especially when they are in a psychotic state. And she was like, how do you separate like loving this person for who you know they are with kind of who they are right now and setting boundaries, keeping yourself safe? And she was like, I don't, she's like 15 years old. She's like, I don't know how to, it was a very insightful question to be able to like word it in that way. And she was like, I want to be able to, my grandfather lives like near me and my mom is a caretaker for him and I see him all the time, but now he's, you know, getting physical and

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  we're having to bring in extra care and there are boundaries that are being set and how like, how are you able to still love somebody and care for them and be like, be the same person for them that you always have been while having this in the back of your head? And it's a very hard question to answer and it's really shows you kind of like answered it for herself. If you just really have to separate it and know that, you know, the person that you love and care for is still in there, but it's not who they are anymore. And so you kind of have to treat the situation as such. You don't have to treat them as such, but you just have to treat the situation with an air of caution.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  But that was a really meaningful and insightful question. I had another young man write in and say like, you know, I'm somebody who everybody has always like basically told me I'm gay and I'm more feminine and this guy's like in his twenties, he was like, I was raised as a Christian, but because everybody told me I was gay and that maybe I should even that maybe I was actually trans. I've kind of drifted away, but he was like, I am, you know, I love my faith and I'm more of like a common sense conservative, but I feel like I don't fit in there because I look at, you know, right wing accounts on X who are perpetrating one version of masculinity and I don't fit into that, but I, I am not gay. And he was like, am I ever going to like meet a woman? Like what do I, like, what do I do?

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  It was just this very, it was like a guy that truly like felt stuck in the middle of like this kind of weird culture war and this war of identities. And my answer was as simple as like, You know, I think you, everybody at some point in their life needs to hear that it's like no human being is the same, like we're all very, very different. And the way you present, or the way your personality might be perceived by people does not determine who you're attracted to, or what your values are. And if, you know, you are surrounded by people who are projecting that on you, those aren't good people to be around anyway, because they don't understand you at your core. And I think that's a huge reason for why we see such a rise in, you know, gender confusion in young people, especially young women who feel so out of place. I mean,

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  that's how I felt going through puberty. I felt so out of my body and so weird that I like, tried to be as butch as possible. Like, I feel like if I didn't have the mom that I had, and the community that I did, I would definitely be somebody who would be like, am I like, I mean, am I like, trans? Like, I'm not, I don't fit in it. Like, I'm so, I was so uncomfortable being a woman at like, 14 years old. And when you have people who just slap identities on you, and you're like, oh, well, if you dress like that, then you're this. If you don't feel like this way as a woman, then you're that. And so it's like, that kind of nuance is hard. But it's like, those are hard questions. Those are deep things that people are muddling through. And I'm really grateful that they feel comfortable, that there's like, a space where they can ask those

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  questions, and we try to like, work through them together. Because it's like, I don't know everything. I'm 23 years old. I've been around the block a couple of times, but I know everything. But I think it's sometimes as simple as just kind of like, breaking down the question, and hopefully trying to offer some clarity. And even if it's just like empowerment and affirmation of like, you're on the right path. I know it might seem crazy right now, and it might seem alienating. Like, you're obviously, by asking these questions, you're in, you're on the right path. Like, you're in tune with what you know to be true, or what you want for your life. But you might just need somebody, you know, outside of your community, or your family, or this like, crazy, weird, like, bubble of social media to say, like, you're doing okay. So yeah, but that's really, really special. It's just a, it's just a really great community. So my whole point

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  in saying all of that is like, 99% of all the interactions are so positive. They're so great. And it like, makes me love what I do, because I get to, you know, they make me better. They make, I always say, they, you know, by doing the work that I do, and the show, and meeting people in real life, or reading the comments, and getting these questions, it makes me more articulate, it makes me more thoughtful. I think I've become so much more empathetic by having a show every day, and talking about my values, and going through news stories, and dealing with, you know, cultural issues people are debating. So it makes me better. I hope it, you know, impacts their life in a positive way. So it's like, okay, 99% of the time, and then I have 1%.

• 1:14:11Graham Stephan?

  So speaking with so many people, do you think dating now, just from what you've seen, is harder? Or are people just getting too emotionally weak?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  I think it's probably a mix of a lot of those factors. I think dating is objectively harder

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  because the social norms have changed. Where it's like, and I always say this too, Gen Z wasn't taught how to date. Like, I don't know what your first experience was, like, asking a girl out or dating. But I got asked out for the first time. My first few dating experiences were all digital. Snapchat, Instagram DM, joining my sorority at college and being like, why are you not on Hinge? You need to be on Tinder and Hinge. And then like, had my, met my first boyfriend on Hinge. And I was only asked out in person. Alex was like, he's the only one that I remember. And I, I want to make sure I'm not just saying that because I married him. But no, I had one other guy I asked out in person.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Everything else was like text, digital, started, like I, the art of flirting, of like sending signals of making like, women who like, won't fricking make eye contact or smile and like, show a guy that they're interested. And then men who obviously, it's a scary time to just go up and ask a woman out, especially if she's not giving you signals. And it's already hard to be a guy asking somebody out. But it's like that little like dance of dating. I feel like Gen Z just didn't get.

• 1:15:39Graham Stephan?

  So what's the move? Is it just to get a number? And then once you get a number, then it's to text? Or like, I guess the numbers, it's Instagram or Snapchat? And then it's like, hey, you want to meet up? Is that the?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  So my recommendation is, it is so, it's not even like some new innovative thing. It's to be in like organized groups. Because I think for a lot of people, there's a social barrier of like comfortability of asking somebody out or approaching for the first number, even like sparking a conversation. Because they're like, I don't know this person. It's very uncomfortable to just go up to somebody in a bar or Home Depot. I would get asked out in like, Home Depot. When, you know, before I was, I mean, even still, I got ass out on Home Depot like six months ago. But that's like a bit weird, like, and I say this to somebody who has like a very high tolerance. Like, I don't go around saying people are like creeps or whatever, but I mean, like a random guy like kind of follow you through the store and be like, hey.

• 1:16:28Graham Stephan?

  Did he see the ring on the finger?

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  He didn't know, he didn't like see or.

• 1:16:32Graham Stephan?

  It doesn't matter.

• 1:16:33Jack Selby?

  What did he say?

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Um, this one wanted my Snapchat so that we could go out and I was like, ah, you're like thirty years old.

• 1:16:40Graham Stephan?

  Did he know who you were?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  I don't think so. He didn't act like it.

• 1:16:43Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's like that. And that's objectively like I feel for the guy because that's like, that's hard to do regardless to just like go up to a random girl. But it's also like weird for the girl. And so to make the situation easier for this, like digitally stunted couple of generations where everybody's online and the landscape is really weird. It's like, Chris Williamson talks about this a lot, that's like run clubs and pickleball clubs have become like the new dating apps, basically. And the reason why is because you're now going to a place regularly with a semi-regular group of people. Like you're going to see the same people week over week. And so you can spark up a conversation with very, very low stakes of like, oh, hey, you know, what are you listening to?

• 1:17:24Graham Stephan?

  I think that's higher stakes because you see them every week and you're in the same group and you know that like.

• 1:17:29Jack Selby?

  Well, I think she's saying not in like a manner of hitting on them, but in a manner of just like opening up dialogue.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think of just like starting the conversation because there's so many like, okay, you have to think about how unsocialized people are right now. Especially coming on the heels of COVID where it's like, I can't even go and talk to somebody in person. So if you just to get off the app of just like make a friend of just like being comfortable sparking up conversations so that you get in the habit of doing that. And then maybe you have a conversation for three or four weeks. See, you know, am I getting good signals? Do I know if she's single? Do I know if he's interested, whatever it is? And then it creates an environment that's like, okay, we can go out. And then it's also, I think, low stakes because it's a run club. You can find another run club. Like, it's not like. It's at work.

• 1:18:10Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  Those are like high stakes. Alex and I dated when we worked at the same place. And that's like, I was always very against that, but I kind of like knew I was going to marry him immediately. So I felt okay with it.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  But in those environments, it is, it feels very low stake. And then, but it creates the like, the social foundation to be able to have those conversations and then like, move to like flirting and asking out. And it feels less precarious for the man and the woman, in my opinion.

• 1:18:37Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. So why do you think it is a lot of women say they want a traditional man, but they will reject those traditional values? And before we go into that, you gotta ask yourself the question, what does the future hold for business? Because if you ask nine different experts, you're going to get 10 different answers from a bull market, a bear market, rates are staying the same, they're going down. Be very helpful to have a crystal ball at this point. But until that happens, over 41,000 businesses have already future-proofed their business with their sponsor, NetSuite by Oracle. They are the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one fluid platform. That's because with one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth,

• 1:19:19Graham Stephan?

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• 1:20:03Graham Stephan?

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• 1:20:58Graham Stephan?

  Thank you so much, Range Rover Sport, for sponsoring this episode. Yeah, so why do you think it is a lot of women say they want a traditional man, but they will reject those traditional values? Why do you think that is?

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  Women are confused. I don't know. It's like, I try to muddle through all the female problems. I think that there's something innate in women. Obviously, it's biological to want a guy to care for you and be able to protect, provide. I don't even mean like financially provide, but just like that emotional security. And so I think women seek that out.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Whether they really know it or not, but then I think that they aren't totally prepared for what comes with getting a more traditional guy. Like especially when you find like a really traditional guy who's like, no, I like would love for you to stay home with the kids. And like, I don't really want you to be posting your ass on social media or whatever it is. Like there are just kind of standards, I think, that come with that. Like if you're going to date like a player guy who isn't really thinking about marriage, who doesn't really care if you stay home with the kids or whatever it is, it's probably fine if you guys are both out doing your thing and posting whatever you want to post and talking with whoever. But when you get into those situations where... You have like a man with standards or a woman with standards. I think you either have

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  to rise and meet those standards and work together, or it's just never gonna work. So I think that might be part of it. But I also think women are, again, there's this innate desire. And then there is what women are taught socially and what women talk about in their like circles of like, I want to be this boss babe, and I don't need no man. Oh, yeah, men are scum. I mean, if you heard what women like talk about just in their little groups, it's crazy. And so I think that there is, they want one thing, and then they're presented and encouraged in another way. And so I think it makes it very confusing. And not to like completely, like, take the blame off of them. But I think it's a difficult thing to battle through, especially in this society right now, and with men and women being so split

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  ideologically. Where there was a really interesting CNN interview that was going viral on X yesterday, where this woman was doing a piece, and she only dated like, outright men for a year. And she didn't interview about it, about everything that she learned.

• 1:23:14Jack Selby?

  Whoa.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:16Jack Selby?

  Wait, so she, did she set out?

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:19Jack Selby?

  To only date outright?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yes. So as a result-

• 1:23:21Jack Selby?

  So she, like, kind of, in a sense, deceived?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:24Jack Selby?

  All of these guys?

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:25Graham Stephan?

  How long did she date them for? Like, a month each?

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  It was like, yeah, a couple of months, like, a month here. She would go on a couple of dates here. Like, there was no, like, serious relationship.

• 1:23:33Graham Stephan?

  Okay, so it's just like going out, okay.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's just going out. She's dating these guys.

• 1:23:36Jack Selby?

  And how did she determine if they're outright?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Like, based on their social media profiles, asking them, like, she would ask about their politics and that kind of stuff. But you could tell, she, like, intentionally sought out, like, not just your average, like, right-leaning guy on social, whatever it is, but like-

• 1:23:49Jack Selby?

  Extreme right.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Oh, right, whatever.

• 1:23:51Graham Stephan?

  That's interesting. Are we talking like the Andrew Tate?

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that kind of thing, yeah. Or, yeah, or like Nick Fuentes fans, like, that kind of stuff. Like, she, like, really, and then the entire interview was like, oh, they're so awful. They took me to political meetings. It was all about, anyway, it was such a- It was like she had like sort of found herself in this like weird niche political faction that is like not reality at all, that is not just like most normal guys, like most of the, you know, Alex is a pretty like diverse group of friends, but of all of the like conservative or right-leaning guys that we're friends with that he knows from college, they're so normal, like you would like, they're not walking around with like huge Trump hats on or going to like political, like they're lovely, wonderful, normal guys, and she did

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  not find any of those. I don't think she was seeking them out. Um, but the way she spoke about them, even like, even like removing her like feelings about the alt-right whatever, but she was just so disgusted by every part of them. And I think that that's really encouraged in women right now, and they're so disgusted by like the male spe- like species like moving more right. And so I think that divide isn't helping at all, where now women are like turning their nose up at more traditional guys, even though they know that they like want that kind of like protection and security. So really, it's just basically just chaos. And I think that's a huge reason for why the dating landscape is such a mess.

• 1:25:15Graham Stephan?

  You know what's interesting? I saw on Twitter, this triggered a lot of people.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:19Graham Stephan?

  There was marriage advice.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:20Graham Stephan?

  And, uh, it was some lady who was giving advice and just said, uh, to all the women out there who are in unhappy marriages.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:29Graham Stephan?

  All you need to do is when your husband gets home, get home early, cook a mistake.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  [laughing]

• 1:25:35Graham Stephan?

  And that's it.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:37Graham Stephan?

  That's all it'll take.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:38Graham Stephan?

  And your marriage is gonna change around.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Graham Stephan?

  And it's interesting to see the comments. All the guys are like, oh my gosh, this would be it. When I get home, I just want to relax for an hour.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:47Graham Stephan?

  And then I, I have all this to-do list and these things. And if I just got that, all the women were saying, absolutely not. I would do that. My husband wouldn't appreciate it. Or he would just find something to, to, to talk about. It's, it's, what are your thoughts on something like that?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Uh, it feels very normal to me. That's because it's kind of like what happens in our house. Anyway, like one of my favorite things about Alex is out at the gym, we're at a meeting, like, I love like being there when he gets home. Now, there are a lot of people who like those types of videos, where they'll be like, oh yeah, put on a big like face makeup, get dressed up. And I'll be in like my pajamas, but I'm waiting on the porch being like, hug me. Like, I'm so excited to see, but I'm like genuinely so excited to see him every day when he gets home, um, from whatever he's doing. And I will happily cook him a steak whenever he wants. I'm terrible at cooking steak. He's far superior, so he usually does it. But I will cook him a meal, whatever he wants, because it's, I mean, it's less of a, I'm revering you as a man and like, whatever it is, and more so, you are a person that I love and I'm going to care for you and hopefully make your day better.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  But he also does the same for me. So it's not like a one-sided thing. And I think a lot of people who, a lot of the women who get so angry about that see it as like, well, this just means that I'm serving him and I'm getting nothing back. But I think that there is something to be said of like, what are the small things that you can do in your relationship to just make their lives better? To just offer them some sort of comfort? And it kind of, if you're in a situation, and this is just my opinion, but if you're in a situation where things aren't great and you're just constantly at odds, it's like, well, can you be the one to just like, take the step to start? And it might be uncomfortable, because you feel like, oh, maybe it wouldn't be appreciated, but maybe that's all you needed to do is just like, kind of show up and show the guy that you love him and you care about him. And hopefully that, you know, starts to change things.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  And if he really just doesn't appreciate anything that you're doing and you're doing all of the right things and you're trying to be supportive, then that's indicative of a much bigger problem. But if you're just dealing with like nagging communication issues, or you just feel like you're, you know, not on the same path, you're not as connected. It's like, what can you do to just like, try to make your home life a little happier and more comfortable? And that should be something that both individuals are trying to do.

• 1:27:49Graham Stephan?

  What's your advice to guys out there to improve themselves? Like, what's the steak example, but from the guy's perspective?

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Women really love when you pay attention to the little things, which is not the...

• 1:28:03Graham Stephan?

  No, no.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Jack is like, oh, God.

• 1:28:04Jack Selby?

  That's like the hardest thing to do.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, I know.

• 1:28:07Jack Selby?

  Is that why they like it? Is because they know it's like, high effort, high intentional, like?

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's like, I don't see, I don't think about it in that regard of like, high effort, but it's always like, when Alex will, okay, so last night, I was feeling awful. And I had an awful headache and we were driving yesterday and there was like a big pileup on the road. And he like slammed on the brakes. I like, went like, is my just neck though? I just like had an off day. And my dog, accidentally, my dog, who is a terror. Like somehow got on the stove and like turned on the gas. So then our house, like entire kitchen, just the whole like evening was just like, kind of went awry. And I just was just not feeling it. And so we had dinner.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  And it was like a series of events of like him being like, oh my God, my wife is just like not having a time. And so we ate dinner and I went and I got in bed. I was like, I'm gonna go to bed early. I, you know, do this podcast in the morning. I want to be prepared for it. I have work to do in the morning. I want to just go to bed. And he was in there, I thought he was just like cleaning up the kitchen because we had made dinner. And I'm obsessed with chocolate chip cookies. And I was like half asleep and he comes in with like this plate of chocolate chip cookies. And I didn't ask him to do that. And it's not like a super specific little thing because he knows that I like my favorite food in the world is a chocolate chip cookie. But he took 15 minutes to be like, yeah, I can like make a cookie from scratch and bring that. And it was like my night litter like,

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  it was like life rushed through me. I was like, I can do anything. I'm up. But it was just like, and it wasn't the cookie, but it was, you saw that I was not having a great time, that I didn't feel great, that I had an awful headache, that I just felt really off. And you took 15 minutes out of your day when you could have been, you know, relaxing, reading a book, doing some work, sending some emails, texting your friends, looking at, you know, reels on Instagram to send all of your frat bros, whatever it is. And you took 15 minutes to do something that was really special. And that wasn't like the most complicated thing to figure out. But it was like, and I didn't know that he was doing it. I think that's also something for both men and women. Is that I think just people in general love when you don't have to like ask somebody to do something, but where it's just kind of unexpected.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  And so I don't think for women that it has to be this like, you've traveled across the world to like, find this like secret thing that they care about, but it's just like, You know, is there something that they talk about that they really love or this restaurant that they really want to go to or, you know, something that they pointed out online? Like Alex will, I'll like send him a reel or show him something on my phone of like, oh, I, you know, this dress is really pretty. Six months later for Christmas, he's got the dress. He's like, remember, I don't even remember.

• 1:30:47Graham Stephan?

  Oh, gosh, that's, that's impossible.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yes, but he's so intentional. It's like crazy. And so I had to like step up my game. So I have like a, like running notes app list of like now that I like write things down and remember things because he's so good at that. And it's really, really like, it's so special.

• 1:31:02Graham Stephan?

  That's, that's unusual. I mean, I, I just, I could get told something.

• 1:31:05Jack Selby?

  I'm hoping to find a wife that doesn't value that.

• 1:31:08Graham Stephan?

  Doesn't remember at all.

• 1:31:08Jack Selby?

  But.

• 1:31:09Graham Stephan?

  My god.

• 1:31:10Jack Selby?

  Or I'll have to make some drastic changes.

• 1:31:11Graham Stephan?

  And 10 minutes later, I've forgotten it.

• 1:31:13Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Graham Stephan?

  I have no clue.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  Which honestly, you would be shocked because he is somebody that's kind of like an in one ear, up the other. He's kind of like squirrel, like sparkly thing, whatever. But he somehow just makes an effort in that capacity. But it also doesn't even have to be that. It's like chicks love flowers. Like it's really like, people are like, what can I do? It's so simple. And it doesn't have to be some like fancy bouquet. Like they're really like pretty ones at Trader Joe's that are like $3.

• 1:31:37Graham Stephan?

  You know what's funny? I've gotten Macy's fake flowers. She hates them. But to me, it's like, but they last.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  Does she not?

• 1:31:43Graham Stephan?

  Like, wouldn't you, wouldn't you rather have a bouquet of flowers that could stay there for years?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:31:49Graham Stephan?

  And not die?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  No. Never. Cause he, because we like.

• 1:31:53Graham Stephan?

  They're really good at home goods, though. They look identical.

• 1:31:56Jack Selby?

  Graham loves fake everything.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  You do?

• 1:31:58Graham Stephan?

  I love it, yes.

• 1:31:59Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:59Graham Stephan?

  I love walking into a house and just, everything's perfect. No flowers are dying. There's nothing that needs to be watered. And just from a distance, it looks the same.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. But what about the, what about the experience of like, you come home and you've just thought about it, you saw a like a, literally it could be the little bouquet that's like this big at Trader Joe's and you're like, oh, I'm thinking about her.

• 1:32:19Graham Stephan?

  I like, I like the fake ones. I, I don't know, because then you could swap them out for seasons. Like we, we'll have like the, the spring fake flowers, the summer fake flowers, the fall fake flowers, and it's just the same thing.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  It's very practical.

• 1:32:33Graham Stephan?

  I much prefer that.

• 1:32:37Jack Selby?

  Where would you recommend a guy go to find a traditional woman? And where would you recommend they don't go?

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:32:46Jack Selby?

  Because I was just at Coachella.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  I feel like that's probably not the right place to go.

• 1:32:52Jack Selby?

  I think you're probably right.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you learn that?

• 1:32:55Jack Selby?

  Um, well, I didn't really talk to any.

• 1:32:57Graham Stephan?

  You didn't talk to anybody?

• 1:32:58Jack Selby?

  Um, I, I mean.

• 1:33:00Graham Stephan?

  You did.

• 1:33:01Jack Selby?

  No, no, not, I mean, not, my friend was talking to a girl.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Jack Selby?

  And she had a friend, so I kind of like.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:10Jack Selby?

  Tried to keep the environment in a good situation.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 1:33:13Jack Selby?

  Yeah, she was actually pretty cool. But I feel like walking around, it was not the ideal situation to probably find a traditional woman.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  No, for sure. It's like going to a location where you know that values are in practice. Basically, and it doesn't need to be like, I'm going to go to this church that is exactly whatever. Because people have all these different opinions about like whether church is a great place to meet people or not. But this thread was basically arguing like, if somebody is showing up to, you know, this workout class every single week and you see them there and there's like repetition, or if they're going to this run club or like a tennis group or whatever it is, it's like joining an activity where it's like you're showing like, I care about health and physical exercise. At least you're like, sort of moving in the right path. Um, or joining some kind of like organized group where you have like similar values. I think that's probably the easiest way.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  I also think that like on dating apps, you have to be pretty clear about what you want and who you are. I think that's where the pitfalls of dating apps happen, where it's like, men and women both are, well, I think it's more with men, less with women, because based on the responses that I've seen, like you were saying of like women responding to guys, if they show any shred of not being a like feminist liberal, um.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  That, you know, basically my point in saying this is that you have to be very clear about what you want and it kind of sucks sometimes because you'll get responses from women who are like, no, this is terrible, but you're waiting, you don't want to date them anyway. So it's like if you are upfront about what you want and your intention with dating and your values, it is so much better because you weed out the people who are going to dislike you anyway. And then you will attract the people who hopefully are in line with that, which is harder because that means a little more confrontation and being public about things. But I think that's key. But I do think a huge part of it is being in an environment where you're seeing somebody repeatedly and you're seeing them in a group of friends or in some kind of team related thing. And I wish I had more concrete advice, but I feel like I kind of got out of the dating market pretty quickly.

• 1:35:12Jack Selby?

  It's so funny. It made me think like going to a pickleball club or going to a run club and trying to find or trying to meet someone. It's like you're going there though for an ulterior motive. And that for me like feels a little weird, but it made me think, and I still think it's so funny. Like I have friends that swear by certain methods. They're like, dude, this is gonna sound like they, they all say like, go to a gay bar. Because if you go to a gay bar.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Then it's all the girls that are gay best friends.

• 1:35:37Jack Selby?

  Well, it's girls that are just trying to have fun. They're not like peacocking at a normal bar or a non-gay bar.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:35:43Jack Selby?

  That's what we call them now, non-gay bars, where, where, you know, they're trying to show off to guys or whatever. But a gay bar, they're just trying to have fun, sing some karaoke.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  That actually makes a ton of sense.

• 1:35:52Jack Selby?

  Yeah. But it's also, I don't know, I guess, I guess going out somewhere with the intention of like, is a little.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  And so I guess my response to that would be like, I would never join a run club because I hate running.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  But I would join, maybe like there was my first like summer in Nashville. Really bad at volleyball, but I had friends that had like a church volleyball like league, but it was like through the city, but their church group did it. They needed an extra person. I was like, yeah, sure. Like, I really like you. Like, I didn't go for any purpose of meeting somebody and I didn't meet somebody, but it's like you find something that you're actually interested in, because if you don't meet anybody, you still get to gain a skill or do something that you enjoy.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Whether it's like a gun club or doesn't have to be pickleball. But find something that will enrich your life regardless of whether you meet somebody or not.

• 1:37:19Jack Selby?

  How bad do you think modern hookup culture is? Who is it worse for, guys and girls? And what does it look like if you extend that over a longer period of time? I heard Jordan Peterson say it can completely restructure your value hierarchy and make you nearly undateable.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  I think he's absolutely accurate on that because I think it skews your perception of what intimacy really is and what I think humans are sort of wired to look for in a relationship of this like long-term trust and stability and companionship. And I think if you spend years just hooking up with people and sleeping around and not taking any kind of commitment, you will feel very detached from that idea of women. And I think that men or women will look at somebody who has just been like sleeping around for 20 years and it's kind of like, something wrong with you? Or like, why, like, I don't really want to date. Like, I wouldn't want to date somebody that has, you know, if I was in my 30s, who had spent his entire, you know, 20s and 30s just hooking up with girls and not seeking anything

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  that was more meaningful. Because I would kind of be like, well, what are your, what are your values actually mean? Like, what have you been focusing on? Like, I don't need you to have been in like four long-term relationships seeking marriage, but if you've just spent all of your time kind of chasing, chasing tail, then what does that say about you? I don't know if I could pinpoint who it impacts most negatively. I think that it's been different for men in a moment. I think that men have been negatively impacted because, especially, I think the bigger negative impact for men has been, for sure. But I think that that has fostered an increase in hookup culture, for sure.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  But I think for women, hookup culture has completely

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  Kind of like skewed, like protecting this beautiful thing that you have, which is like, I mean, you kind of look at it biologically where it's like men, you have the ability to like go sow as many seeds and have as many children, saying it with Elon right now, you can have as many kids as possible. Women, it's like, you know, like one egg a month, you like have to protect this baby that you're having. It's just like you're wired differently. And I think for women, it's so dangerous. And I also think it's ideologically very dangerous because you're putting yourself out there and it's under the guise of this female empowerment. Like I can do whatever I want with my body. I can sleep whoever this is powerful. But it's like, you're actually just like letting somebody get off using you and putting yourself in an incredibly vulnerable situation because he doesn't

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  get pregnant. You might get pregnant. And now you have this child that you have to raise. Like, that's a very real consequence of sex and hookup culture that I think a lot of people don't think about because abortion exists. And the common line is, you know, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I'm like, it kind of is. Like whether you're consenting to it or not, it's a natural consequence. Like that just happens. You can't avoid that. And that's just kind of lying to yourself. And so I think it's taken what is a very vulnerable, incredibly intimate situation for both parties, but especially for women, and turned it into this false sense of empowerment that I think is really skewed what women look for and what they value in themselves and they value in the world. And I think a lot

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  of women just lie to themselves about it, feeling powerful and feeling really happy. When you look at statistics, like across decades and decades of research, it shows that women who are in, I also show this with like parenthood, but married couples are objectively happier. And it isn't because the institution of marriage is so perfect and it fixes everything, but it's because you have a lasting commitment to somebody else who has your best interests at heart, who loves you and is trying to make you better, where you have that security and that stability. And that provides human flourishing. And

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  You'll see articles that come out and it's like women who are single in their 30s are richer and they're happier. And you read the articles, you actually get past the headline and it's like they're using an outlier from a tiny study of like 30 people, or they're saying that they're actually happier, but it's only looking at men and women who are single in their 30s. It's not actually looking at women who are single compared to women who are married or have kids or have been divorced or whatever it is. So the research is very skewed. So I think it's just like changed what women are.

• 1:41:32Graham Stephan?

  Part of that, I feel like for women have to make more money because they're supporting themselves. Versus if they're in a relationship, they could take other jobs and maybe pay less that have a better balance.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And it's like a lot of women who are, um, who are married choose to, you know, yeah, take a lower paying job or be able to stay home with the kids. And there's also the opposite side of things where it's like married men significantly out earn unmarried men because then there is this, and I've even just watched it with Alex where we don't have kids. I make good money, but as a husband, he's like, no, I want to, if you ever want to like stop working completely, I want to be able to let you do that. And we don't have to change our lives or we don't have to worry about anything. And I want to protect you. And especially as I've kind of made this whole career shift of leaving a situation where I had like, you know, I had a W2 job and I

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  was a salaried employee to where I've now jumped to, you know, my income is based on basically what I put out. Um, I would have been able to do that if it wasn't for his, you know, support and being able to make that happen. And in a similar way where he started his business, I was able to give support because he was leaving his W2 job. So it's like this give and take, but just watching him as a husband, we've only been married for a year of he's making significantly more. And it's like this mindset shift of I'm going to be better for you. I'm going to like try to make more to provide for us. And I don't think. I think that there's a lot of unmarried men who are obviously motivated and want to do

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  well, but don't have that extra like, I need to provide, I need to take care of them. So yeah, you have women that need to provide because they don't have that safety net. And then you have men that are driven. So again, it's just like this divide between men and women goes so deep right now between happiness and finances and educational levels to ideology. It's so deep, but I think people kind of brush it aside and make fun of it and we laugh at it and we say, oh, these liberal women, whatever. It's so important. Like, our society is becoming completely off kilter because of this. I think it's a root of a lot of these issues. I think Jordan is one of the only people that talks about it as extensively as it should. Chris Williamson is another one who talks about this extensively because it's such a huge issue.

• 1:43:43Graham Stephan?

  What do you think about the dynamic where women make more than their husbands?

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've seen it work and I've seen it not work. Like in my parents' marriage, that was a big issue. But it was, the money wasn't the issue. It was the personalities, more than anything. Of, my mom was a very dominant person and I think that she needed somebody who was more dominant than her and was as assertive as a person. It was probably a lot more overtly assertively masculine and more traditional ways where my dad is definitely not that at all. And so I think that already caused an imbalance and she is not somebody who's going to like make herself smaller. Or I think she kind of looked at it as like, hell, you need to rise the occasion. And he was kind of like, well, you're hurting my feelings. And so I think there was an emotional layer to that.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  It wasn't actually about the money. It was more about how they were operating within their marriage, what the responsibility was and how that made each of them feel. Where she then felt very resentful and he felt ashamed, I think. But that, again, it wasn't, I think the money was a symptom or an additional symptom of that rather than being the actual cause. Like, they would have still had the same issues if he had made significantly more, I think.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  And so I think it really goes down to, you know, in the marriages that I've really seen it work. Like I have a very, very close friend who's a mentor to me. She's one of my best friends, but she's much older than me. And she has always had a more traditional corporate job that's made a lot of money and her husband does not. And they have an incredible, incredible marriage and they are each other's best friends. But at the beginning of their marriage, they kind of acknowledged the elephant in the room of, hey, this is the path I'm taking. This is the path you're taking and we're deciding this early on and that's okay. And if things change, we'll address them. But she still massively, like it doesn't change her respect of her husband. He's an incredible, incredible guy who leads their household,

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  who is an amazing, amazing man, and she reveres him in everything. And I think that's the key is that you, it's, I think money is very difficult in general too. And it money causes a lot of problems. It's kind of like an age old, an age old saying. So, but the foundation has to be there, I think, before, the foundation has to be there for it to work.

• 1:45:58Jack Selby?

  Do you think a guy should lead the household? And what does that look like in application?

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I certainly do. But I think that, that, I think a lot of people hear that and say, okay, he's going to make every decision. He's going to tell me what to do. I'm going to be super subservient. And a lot of women hear that and like, no, it's like, I hate that. I don't want to be told what to do. But for me, I look at that as like, I married a guy who I massively respect. Like I genuinely think he is the smartest person in the room. I genuinely think that he is kind and empathetic and a good friend. He's a great leader. He's incredibly compassionate. He has great instincts. And he's somebody that, like, I feel like when I met him and we started dating, it was like a weight taken off of me because I had all of these walls up. I was managing all of these different things. I was like, I don't know who to trust. What am I doing here? Like my family's, whatever. I met him and

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  it was like, oh my God, I can like relax because I'm dating somebody that I trust. Who I know has my best interests at heart. And so I naturally, it's less of a like, I'm calculating, you know, being like, I need Alex to make this decision because he's going to lead us in this way and more so like, you're really great at making these decisions and it takes a weight off of me and you enjoy this. Like where, you know, I'm buying a car. Um, when I bought my car last year, he handled the entire thing. He basically told me what car we were going to get. He told me we were going to get a Tesla because it made sense for my commute. And I was terrible at filling up my 4Runner with gas. I would get home and I would have like four miles and he would be like, okay, well, you're not, I'm not letting you go out

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  to the, uh, to the East Nashville, you know, Shell station at 11:00 PM in the dark. So then I have to go do this, whatever. And he was like, so this is the car we're going to get. It's great. I found a great price. We're going to go do it. I was like, great. I am so happy that I don't have to think about this and I was kind of resentful at the time. So I loved my 4Runner. That's a cool car. Love it. It was my dream car and I had it for like three years, two years. And now I love my Tesla and I didn't think I was going to love it. I have a Tesla Y. Okay. Yeah, model Y. Um, but I didn't think I was gonna like it. And I was like, I've always had like trucks and a gas guzzler and this is what I want. We were moving to a farm and why am I getting a Tesla? I was like, you drive like 35 minutes to your studio every day. This is dumb and you don't fill up your car with gas and gas prices are so high.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  This makes sense. I was like, okay, whatever. But I trusted him. I didn't really push back other than being like, I'm going to miss my car. I love my car now. Everything he said was right. And like he just, he's very logistical. He understands this situation from a bird's eye view and it's so wonderful. And this is just like being in a great relationship in general. And I don't know if you feel this too, where it's like, you have somebody who is like, gets you outside of your head when you can't and knows you so well. And it's like, no, this actually is what you need. And I trust him implicitly. But I also do the same thing for him in a different way where I'm not negotiating what car he's going to buy and telling him what car he should do. But when it comes to like interpersonal relationships or things that he's doing in his work and how he, you know, navigates some situation with a client.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  It's definitely like the male female roles of like, I'm just, you know, more emotional. That's where I like excel in. Then he comes to me and we work through that. And at the end of the day, we're both adults. We can make whatever decision we want, but we trust each other in that regard and we know our strengths. And so that's kind of how I think it is in. An application of, you know, there are certainly things that he excels in. And so I let him lead in that regard and I trust him enough to let him lead. I think that there is, and I think you have to find the right person for you because it's not like there where I would go out with guys. And Alex was the first one that I looked at and I was like, I would trust you to be in the driver's seat of my life.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  If I was in a life or death situation, if I needed you to make a decision, you are somebody that I feel like would make a great decision for me.

• 1:49:42Graham Stephan?

  Was that immediate, you felt like that?

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was just, that was just like a kind of an emotional feeling of like stability. And then I got to know him more and I was like, oh yes, like in practice, I feel this. And there would be other people that I would go out with where even like on the first date, I was like, I don't think this is, it was just like a vibe thing of, I don't think we're in sync. I think that, you know, just knowing my parents' marriage, there are times where I'd be like, I think I am way too dominant for you and I might really like you and you're really sweet and you're really funny. But I can already tell that even me as a people pleaser, I might walk all over you and that's not what I, I saw that in practice, I saw it not working. And so I think it's really important to know yourself. I think that's kind of a conversation that is missed, especially on like the conservative right where they'll say like, just get married.

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  It's gonna, you save the West, get married, save society, whatever it is, we have to find the right person. Like, don't just tell a whole crowd of high schoolers to just go out and find somebody and get married. You have to find the right person for you. It has to be somebody that you trust, that you feel like will always be advocating for you to be your best, who is supporting you, who is holding you to a high standard. If it is, you know, if you are a woman and you're looking for a guy, who is somebody that you would trust in your most, again, you're marrying somebody, you're gonna have this guy's kids. He's gonna, you are gonna be in your most vulnerable situations with him. Make sure that's somebody that you trust. And I think in order to know who you can trust, what you're looking for, you have to know yourself.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  And so some people, and I feel like I was, you know, lucky I was in a unique situation where I feel like I knew myself at a very young age, probably because a lot of the stuff that I went through as a kid, I had to grow up really quickly. Some people just know, but I knew kind of what I wanted my life to look like from a bird's eye view. I knew my values, I knew what had not, I think a big blessing was that I knew what didn't work in my parents' marriage.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  And so I was able to at a young age, younger age than a lot of people say, okay, I think this is gonna work. And obviously, you know, we're one year in. But it's funny, a lot of people say that like the first year of marriage is the hardest and you're figuring everything out in the communication. It's like, last year was actually very difficult.

• 1:51:44Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, who says that? I've never, I've not found that at all.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  It's just a common place thing. I'll even see it on like friends, social media of like, oh, it's hard. Or like people who are like older couples, maybe it's just they're like, I don't know, projecting or whatever. They're like, oh, just wait that first year.

• 1:52:00Jack Selby?

  Maybe it only gets better then.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  I know, maybe that, and that could be, that's maybe that's the perspective shift. But.

• 1:52:06Graham Stephan?

  I guess that could be different if you've like never lived together.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:10Graham Stephan?

  Or you're just like moving in, like you get married and like the next week you, you have a house and like now you merge everything and maybe that's it. I don't know.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  That could be. I don't know. But it's like, even with, you know, Alex and I, we were joking about this. We technically like lived together, but we didn't. Like he was, I bought a house and he had a house and we knew that we wanted to get married and knew we wanted to get married within the next year. And he had a great opportunity to rent his house. And then it like lined up with when I was going to Budapest to shoot the Pendragon Cycle for Daily Wire. So I was gone for four months. So we like overlapped in a home for like two weeks. Then he spent like a month and a half with me out in Budapest. But we didn't actually like live together basically until we got married. Cause then we had bought our farm and we were moving around. But it was like, we didn't actually spend a ton of time cohabitating,

• 1:53:00Speaker 01

  which neither of us really wanted. Actually, both of us were like, we don't want to move in together. And not because we didn't want to, not even because we're like morally against it, but it just felt like neither of us wanted to be in a situation where it became, I think there's a danger in cohabitating just for the sake of getting to know somebody if you're not sure that that's who you want to be with. Because I've seen it go awry where it's like, okay, well now our lives are so entangled and we can't unwind them. And we've been living together. So I guess we're basically married and whatever. And there's just like low. There's low commitment, but now your lives are so entwined and that both of us just independently were very against that. But we felt confident enough of like, we were talking about like,

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  yeah, we're gonna get married in 2024. That's what it's gonna be. And I kind of like, knew through friends that he was in the process of buying a ring. And I was like, oh, okay, then yeah, go ahead and rent your house. And I'm gonna be leaving to go to Hungary for four or five months. Anyway.

• 1:53:57Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Um, so it's a very unique situation. But yeah, it's weird hearing that. And I think it probably is a lot of people just having to, I think, learning somebody's communication style is, it's just difficult. And thankfully for us, it wasn't something that, you know, was like, we were butting heads. It was just kind of, you know, even still, we're like, okay, like, I'll learn new things about him every week, basically, but they aren't hard or bad.

• 1:54:25Graham Stephan?

  With the eight-year age gap, did you notice any like differences between you two? Or like cultural references?

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:54:32Graham Stephan?

  That you would say that?

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Cultural references for sure.

• 1:54:33Graham Stephan?

  That he wouldn't know?

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Um, cultural references, but also most of that was amplified by the fact that he was raised having TV and went to like a brick and mortar high school, went to an SEC school, had a, you know, an iPhone, whatever it was. And I had no television growing up. Like, I was a homeschooled nerd, horse girl. Like, it's so funny. So he is a, um, yeah, the age was never an issue because we were, I think what's more important than age is being at the same stage of life. I think that's also another thing people should really think about of like, even if you are both 22 years old, you could have a guy that is super successful and has his own business and is, you know, creating a real, you know, stake for himself in the world. And you have a girl that's like, still, I don't know, partying at her

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  sorority in college and is not like, ready to take life as seriously as he is, or vice versa. And I think, you know, there, they always say like, women mature more quickly than men. I've seen it be both ways, but of, you know.

• 1:55:31Speaker 07

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• 1:55:43Speaker 02

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• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Me at 21 or 22, I was ever gonna, I was ever gonna be compatible with another like 22 year old in Nashville who was like going to Belmont, like the majority of the guys I would meet who'd be around my age. I think having me at the same stage of life and being ready for the next things, I think is also important to understand about yourself and your potential partnership with another. Um, anyway, so that was never really an issue, but I was off about the fact that he had a very like conventional childhood and he ended up at an SEC school, uh, in a fraternity, was a like a lax bro. And he ended up marrying a homeschooled horse girl, theater kid. Like as like, and if you had told him that that was who he was gonna be like in love with and married to in high school, he'd be like,

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  you are absolute, like hell no, that is insane. Um, and so I think those are probably that caused more of the kind of cultural differences of, there were just like internet meme references that I didn't get, but I probably wouldn't have gotten them with somebody my own age either because I wasn't online. So, yeah, but that hasn't like, it's basically just been humorous rather than creating an issue. But it was also funny because he thought that I was much older than I was and I thought he was much younger because he doesn't really look like he's, you know, 31. Um, and I thought that he was like 25 and he thought that I was 25 and it was like on our fourth date or something. We'd be like both, I remember being like, something's like weird. Like he said something, I don't think that's accurate.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  I think it was like, he went to the same high school as my brother. And I had like, he had said something about the year he'd graduated and I was like, that doesn't seem right. And I literally like went into his wallet and I looked at his birthday and I was like, oh, wait.

• 1:57:24Graham Stephan?

  You went into his wallet?

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:26Graham Stephan?

  Like secretly?

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. He had like gone upstairs to grab something, but I was so confused because I was like, I don't, like, am I really missing something? And I felt like after going on like four or five dates, I couldn't just be like, is hell, are you? Um,

• 1:57:41Graham Stephan?

  What, okay. Is there an age where if you saw on his driver's license, you would say that's too old?

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. If he was like, if he was like 35, then I probably would have been like, that's, that would have been, and maybe somewhere in between, but he was, you know, 28 when we started. I think we were technically like seven years. Um, but again, we were on like such similar wavelengths at the same like stage of life. So it didn't like, that didn't really.

• 1:58:03Graham Stephan?

  Okay. But what, what if he was 45?

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Oh, that would have been like, no, no, uh-uh, weird.

• 1:58:08Graham Stephan?

  Even, yeah, if everything was like totally good.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  I think I just couldn't.

• 1:58:11Graham Stephan?

  Okay. Well, he's like, I thought you-

• 1:58:12Jack Selby?

  You were 40.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:58:14Jack Selby?

  My bad.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Yeah, exactly. But no, I think that would have been.

• 1:58:19Jack Selby?

  How did you confront that when he came back to the table?

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  We never really did. He more, he more so talked to me about it because, okay, so I went on Tim Poole. I've never told this story. I went on Tim Poole and Tim Poole was at Daily Wire and we were talking about something and they were like, wait, how old are you? And I said, oh, I'm, I think I said I'm 21. Apparently Alex was driving and almost crashed his car because he thought I was like 25 or 26. He was like, wait, I had like, no idea. And so we had, but I don't even think we had a, he joked about it later on, but we never had like a confrontation, like conversation about it. I think he like talked to his mom and a couple of friends and I also like talked to a couple of friends. It was like, we real, but and then we've like talked about a couple of months later, I think. Where we were like, we both thought we were at different ages. And it's just something that we've laughed about.

• 1:59:07Jack Selby?

  If you could make one new cultural rule that everyone had to follow, what would you do?

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  That's a good question. Um, I guess the funny one is that everybody has to walk faster on the sidewalk. That's just like a, a big pet peeve for me is slow walkers. But that's not any kind of like important cultural thing. I don't look at, this is more like a vote legislature. I would like get rid of an OnlyFans. I would make it, or if I couldn't like do that, I would make it like so socially impermissible to like make and sell your body online. I think it is so harmful for, we talked about this in the last episode extensively. I think it is destructive to men. I think it is destructive to women. It is one of the leading causes of divorce in America.

• 1:59:54Jack Selby?

  Is it?

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:56Jack Selby?

  How?

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:59:57Jack Selby?

  I thought it was money was the leading divorce.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  I think that is probably the leading, but it's like cited in over half of divorces as a major problem is. And I think a lot of guys look at it as, you know, it's so commonplace now. So I under, and it is so accessible. Like it's something I've talked with. You know, my mom and older friends of mine and people I work with who, you know, it used to be something like you'd go to the movie theaters and you have to like sit around a bunch of people and you'd see like a or whatever. And you'd get like these magazines and it's in all the, you know, 90s movies. If you'd hide them under your bed, it's like in our phones now. It's like on Instagram, we're fed. You know, basically soft.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  It's very easy to go on a myriad of different websites, is free, it's just in your pocket and it's accessible and it's private. And so I think because of the accessibility, people have, it's just become normalized. And I think that a lot of people see it as just innocent and like a means to an end and like, oh, I get off. I'm not dating anybody, whatever it is, and that it's harmless. But it has such a detrimental effect, not only mentally and on relationships, but also physically. There are so many studies, especially with men, of how it impacts your hormones and your, um, you know, I mean, the,

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  you basically just like fry your brain, which then impacts how you are physically able to engage in sex and physically like connect with a physical partner.

• 2:01:29Graham Stephan?

  Couldn't you say that also about a lot of things like alcohol?

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:01:32Graham Stephan?

  TikTok or Instagram, really anything that isn't good for you, sugar.

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:36Graham Stephan?

  Could say that that's also kind of destroying your brain.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think that there is a,

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  I think that has another level because I think that it has, and maybe it's more similar to like a TikTok or whatever. I would like differentiate it between a, like a drug and I put like sugar in the drug category because it acts as a drug. It's very addictive, but in terms of like TikTok and social media addictions and that kind of thing. I think that it fries people's brains in that regard, but I think it's even more sinister because that it impacts families and marriages in such a detrimental way. And if I could just like wave a wand and rid society of it, I would, but it's like, is that legislatively even possible? Would that cause like, I think it's really hard to, just based on how I look at it and how I look at the impacts that it's had culturally.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  I think it's very easy for me to be like, yeah, I just want to get rid of it. I want to do away with it. The principles and implications of that, of, you know, government overreach of banning something. We had this whole conversation about TikTok and a lot of people want it banned purely because of the, the same kind of results of. I think that's a dangerous game to play and I even waver on that of like, how far is too far and what are we, you know, what measure is government taking to actually protect its citizens and what is overreach? And so while I would love to just like, if I could do away with it and have no repercussions on, you know, any negative repercussions on how government operates and overreach in that regard, I would. But I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  And that's why I think that it is a, it's a cultural issue rather than legislatively. But the legislative things that I think need to happen are happening with like requiring to have age verification laws, like that should be a no brainer. Like, and the fact that instead of, like, instead of changing their business model and putting in age verification, they just say, okay, we're just not going to be in Alabama, we're just not going to be in Texas. I'm like, that's so, so weird.

• 2:03:34Graham Stephan?

  I think a lot of people are concerned about a leak like that.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:38Graham Stephan?

  Like, what was that one, the, the affair website? Was it?

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 2:03:42Graham Stephan?

  Whatever, they had that leak.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:03:44Graham Stephan?

  And then now all the wives could go on like, search this leak and find all their husbands on there.

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:50Graham Stephan?

  Oh, my God, this person.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:52Graham Stephan?

  So I think that people are concerned if like, there is a database of like, my ID and information on, if that gets leaked out there and you get to like, just type in, you type in Jack Selby and you see his name everywhere.

• 2:04:07Jack Selby?

  Everywhere.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Why you bring me into this?

• 2:04:08Jack Selby?

  It's like 20 plus pages.

• 2:04:10Graham Stephan?

  Every website is just Jack Selby's on there.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And unfortunately, like, and maybe this is me being, you know, playing hardball with it, but I'm like, you know, with those sites where all of, you know, I think there was a couple of like congressmen that were terrified of like, you know, their names getting leaked and they ended up digging, like, actually that, who was the guy who, somebody was on Sean's show and he was talking to me about it, where actually he was one of the people that like hacked one of those websites and had that whole database and the FBI was like banging down his door trying to get it because they knew that there were names on it. Um, and it was a website. And it's like, with things like that, especially with like, like, I don't care about your privacy, whatever. And I think it's obviously a little different for, but also if there is that, I would love

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  it if it was something that people were. Actually, we were talking about the importance of like embarrassment and shame. I think that right now it's something that is so commonplace, but I think that it should be something that it's like, this is not a good thing. You should know that probably what you're engaging in is incredibly unhealthy and is not making you a better person and is not helping your relationship or your marriage or your, you know, your status in the dating market. And that should, that's a net bad thing. It's like doing drugs. You should know that what you're doing is not good for you. And I think there should be a level of that, James. So I feel less sympathetic to if your name gets out and like, okay.

• 2:05:30Graham Stephan?

  What about OnlyFans?

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  OnlyFans is a mess.

• 2:05:33Graham Stephan?

  It's like that bop house. I keep getting recommended them, because now that one lady, the one girl's talking. She's, okay.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  It's real.

• 2:05:41Graham Stephan?

  It's Sophia Rain. So I think, I don't, how old are they? They're like 18 to 20.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:48Graham Stephan?

  But they're making millions of dollars a month.

• 2:05:51Jack Selby?

  I've heard of Sophia Rain.

• 2:05:52Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, Sophia Rain, she's making like four million dollars a month. And then another one.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  It's like the OnlyFans version of like the Hype House and that kind of thing. Like it's this like coalition of like chicks with huge tits and fake asses, like making OnlyFans videos together. It's like.

• 2:06:06Jack Selby?

  That's funny. It's sad, but it's, it's really funny. They call it the bop house.

• 2:06:09Graham Stephan?

  It's called the bop house, but even there, there's, there's this one OnlyFans girl who does like interviews with her assistant and her younger brother.

• 2:06:18Jack Selby?

  I've seen that.

• 2:06:19Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, her. And she was talking about Sophia Rain. She's like, Sophia Rain makes so much money. And they're like, how much money do you make? And she's like, just pauses for a second. And she's, well, not as much as Sophia. And they're like, okay, okay. But like, how much do you make? One and a half million dollars a month.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 2:06:33Graham Stephan?

  A month.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  And the thing is, that's so, that is obviously real. I mean, you look at like Bad Baby. This is so creepy to me that like, and Bad Baby even like said this, she's the Cash Me Outside girl.

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  She made an OnlyFans on her 18th birthday and had people wait. She made more money than she's ever made in her life. The day that she made her OnlyFans, the day that she turned 18, because people were like waiting for her. And it's so.

• 2:06:56Graham Stephan?

  But that is it. I remember, I remember people were waiting for Emma Watson.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:00Graham Stephan?

  That was the thing. There were, there were websites that like had the countdown going. And it was different for me. I think she's a year older than me. So like at the time, I think I was 17, she had just like turned 18 or like something like that. So for me, it was, it was different at that moment. But yeah, I, I think this is something that's been going on for like a while.

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  And now people like feed into it. I think the difference is now that OnlyFans gives you the opportunity to monetize that weirdness. Whereas I look at that and I'm like, that should be something that we can acknowledge. It's very odd for grown men online to be waiting for you to be 18 so that they can sexualize you openly. And now our culture is so depraved that women are like, it's actually empowering for me to lean into this. And for people to be like waiting to openly sexualize me. There was a crazy, okay, have you seen the Denise Richards story?

• 2:07:46Graham Stephan?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I've heard of it.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  So Denise Richards, Charlie Sheen, they were married, they have three daughters together. And this is also a crazy situation because one of their daughters is like very Christian, talks about her faith on TikTok, does like Bible study on TikTok, seems really sweet, and she's living in this like chaos. So they split up. And Sammy Sheen, two and a half years ago, on her 18th birthday, made an OnlyFans. And her rationality, I'm not kidding, this is so insane to me, is that she wanted to move out and she was working at a candy shop. And the income at the candy shop wasn't cutting it, so she was like, I went to the next best thing and did an OnlyFans. And I'm like, first of all, you're a Nepo baby. Like you should, your mother is Denise Richards, your father is Charlie Sheen.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  If you didn't want to like work a normal job, go make some movies, go like have your daughter get you a job, like lean into the fact that you have amazing connections. And in her mind, the next best thing, the easiest thing was to join OnlyFans. And she gave this whole interview, they have a new reality TV show, it's called The Wild Things, and based on Denise's movie. And it's a whole interview about how empowering it is to be an entrepreneur because she's on OnlyFans. She makes so much money, so she was able to move out, she quit working at the candy shop. But the most insane thing is that a week later Denise also made an OnlyFans, her mother. Because she was seeing that people were sexualizing her daughter or making comments. And she was like, well, I can't let that happen to only you.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  And so she also made an OnlyFans, so now both this mother and daughter, it's an OnlyFans duo. Which I think there's so much like psychology, you know, and like layers of this onion to peel back of, you know, Denise Richards was this like sex icon bombshell. Now her daughter is getting all this attention. I look at this kind of as like, kind of missing the attention that you used to get and you want to also commodify that. You thought it was working out for your daughter. But Sammy makes millions and Charlie Sheen gave an interview and he was very against it. He was like, this did not happen under my roof. She doesn't live with me. She lives with my wife, which is also so weird because then she apparently told her dad how much she was making. And he was like, oh, if you're making that much money, I guess.

• 2:09:47Graham Stephan?

  How much was it?

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  It's like millions of dollars. I think, well, it's nothing like millions every month, but in a year she had made like four million dollars. And it's like, as a father, it's like, so the money then makes it better? Like your daughter is selling.

• 2:10:01Graham Stephan?

  I think it does make it better.

• 2:10:03Jack Selby?

  Like it makes it more understandable.

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 2:10:06Jack Selby?

  If someone shows pictures of their nude body online and they make like

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  No money. Yeah.

• 2:10:11Jack Selby?

  A few hundred dollars a month, then you're like, okay, then you must really like.

• 2:10:15Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:15Jack Selby?

  Something's going on there. But if they're making like, like for example, everyone's got a price. Like, at least I can say for myself, like if someone wanted to pay me lots and lots of money to send them a picture of like my foot, for example. I might.

• 2:10:31Graham Stephan?

  Dude, remember the guy who wanted to buy your shoes?

• 2:10:33Jack Selby?

  He did. And I was.

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  There's a lot of weird people out there.

• 2:10:35Jack Selby?

  Well, I heavily considered it. He was like.

• 2:10:38Graham Stephan?

  I think I was trying to negotiate the price up because he lowballed Jack.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Okay, you're like, not that.

• 2:10:43Jack Selby?

  He told me he'd buy me a new pair of shoes. I posted on my Instagram. I'm like, time to retire these puppies. And it was just a picture of my like worn shoes. Not my feet, nothing. And then he swiped up and he's like, hey, can I, I'm not, you shouldn't be done with this.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  It's so weird.

• 2:10:57Jack Selby?

  There's some value in them. But anyways, everyone's got a price. I like to think, like, I know, you know, $10 million, you know, hey, you know, I would, but anyways.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  And it's hard for people.

• 2:11:08Jack Selby?

  It makes more relatable.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it is hard for people to say that they don't have a price until you're like confronted with, you know, money and then you decide whether to take it or say no to it, which is funny because I. You know, I've sort of been in that situation now where it's like I not in terms of OnlyFans are selling, you know, feet pics or whatever, but of, you know, getting offers and going, that's really, this is not where, like, that's great money, but I don't want that. And say I'd rather take a risk elsewhere or whatever it is and turning that down, which is very, very scary. But I, so I think it's good that you know that there is a price, but I even think it's more black and white.

• 2:11:50Speaker 01

  I think that it probably makes it better in his eyes. It's like, at least my daughter's making money. But again, as a father, it's like, I feel like your, I don't know, disappointment, or maybe it's, that's not even the word, but of just like saddening that that's what your daughter is doing. I would be disappointed myself. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

• 2:12:08Graham Stephan?

  But here's some of the difference. A lot of OnlyFans, they won't be full nude.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:12Graham Stephan?

  They'll just be like in a bikini.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:14Graham Stephan?

  And then you could make the argument, like, what's the difference between me doing that on OnlyFans in a bikini? And me being on the beach.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:21Graham Stephan?

  Around a whole bunch of people. It's the same thing.

• 2:12:24Speaker 01

  Well, no, I think it's the act of selling it because you know that it's for purpose. You know that you're sexualizing yourself. And I think also.

• 2:12:30Graham Stephan?

  But how is that different than going to the beach and wearing like a revealing outfit, knowing that like, oh, I'm getting attention from the guys around me? Or going to a festival like Coachella, having your cheeks out and being like, it's the same thing.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  I think you have to be very like self-aware of your biases because like I look at that regard, like I would never do that. Like, I don't walk around, like, I'm covered up, like relatively modest. Not that I've like never worn a bikini, but it's like, I don't walk around hoping that people are like gawking at me or whatever it is. But I do think there is a difference when money is traded. And I also think that there's something, I talked about this in a recent episode, actually it was the one that I did about the Sami and the whole Sheen family, Richard's family craziness.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  But that it's like, yeah, you might just be selling bikini photos or it's like more revealing of a photo. And you used to just post them on your Instagram, but now you're getting paid for them. But it's like.

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  You know, you're taking advantage of the guys that are spending money. And it's like, and men-

• 2:13:26Graham Stephan?

  But they want, but they want to give the money.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  I know, but I think, but I think that there should be more of a social contract of knowing that that's not a good thing and that men who are engaging in this, like, you also are kind of being taken advantage of in a way because this is not good for you and they are using your vices.

• 2:13:42Jack Selby?

  It's like an addiction, you know, like for a drug dealer, for example. It's like, oh, they're both consenting to a transaction here.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:49Jack Selby?

  But at the same point, like, the drug dealer has, you know-

• 2:13:52Graham Stephan?

  I think that's the same with anything. That's the same with junk food. It's the same with casinos. It's the same with just about anything you could think of that people do on a daily basis and put no thought into it whatsoever.

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  Which is very true, but I think that in like selling your body online, I think that just has had such a detriment, and you can argue for all of those things, especially, you know, junk food and the obesity crisis, that all of that has had detrimental impacts on society and that's why I, you know, hope that RFK is able to turn things around. I'm a, you know, fan of his and I hope that we are able to, you know, both culturally and legislatively, like, turn things around for that sake. But we, it has had such a studied detrimental effect on both men and women and on families and on the daily landscape that it's like, I look at it and I'm just like, we have to be better. And maybe I'm looking at it in kind of this, like, utopia idea of like, this is what I hope for people, but I do like, and what I, what I try to talk about in the episodes

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  where I cover this is not, you know, when you just need to ban this outright or whatever, but it's like, at least acknowledge the fact that you are leaning into your vices and not having any control over them, like, if you're, if you're somebody that's paying for them and that if you are posting those photos of yourself, you are enabling people's vices. And I think that as human beings, we should raise ourselves to a standard of acknowledging that that's not a good thing and that's not a healthy thing. Now, that requires self-awareness, that requires discipline, but I also think that that's something that we should strive for as a society and encourage. Where it's like, there are nobler things that you could be doing with your life. Like, Sami Sheen is literally the perfect example of you have every single opportunity available to you. If you want to be gawked at and sexualized or whatever-

• 2:15:33Speaker 01

  You know, it's fine. It's like, I mean, whatever. But to say that this is the only other option than working at a candy shop. It's like, that's a, that's a lie. That is you excusing and rationalizing your choice because you have been fed this idea of, you know, that this actually is female empowerment. And for most people, they will not make the $4 million. They will not make the $1 million a month. That is an incredibly tiny percentage of the high earners on sites like OnlyFans or on the Playboy website, which also has their new subscription platform. The majority of people will make very, very minimal money and will be in a situation like Jack was talking about where it's like, you're making maybe a couple hundred dollars a month, but you're posting these photos of yourself and you're leaning more and more heavily into it.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Which is like, that's not, like, how is that?

• 2:16:19Graham Stephan?

  That's why you gotta dip your toes in first.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  You gotta like try a foot thick.

• 2:16:23Graham Stephan?

  Start with, start with feet in a bikini. And then as you make more, then you keep notching it up a little bit.

• 2:16:28Jack Selby?

  That's some really good advice, actually. So guys, if you want consulting, you want to get into the business.

• 2:16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:34Graham Stephan?

  I'll take 25% is my fee.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. New pip business. Yeah.

• 2:16:40Jack Selby?

  Okay, all right. Well, speaking of potentially lower value men, let's change it to high value men.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Great, okay.

• 2:16:48Jack Selby?

  What would you say is a high value man and what does Andrew Tate get wrong about it?

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Maybe this will get me into hot water. I think that a lot of things that I see online, especially from like the Andrew Tates of the world, when they talk about high value men, they talk about a lot of materialistic things. And whether or not that is the end goal and the root of what they're talking about, the way that they present themselves. It's like I'm surrounded by these like Lamborghinis and these Bugattis and I'm so rich and I have these suits that are extremely too small and tailored and it's just terrible. And I'm like sitting in this mansion, smoking these cigars and it's like. That isn't masculinity like that like and that kind of goes back to that question that that young man sent in to me saying like I'm not that like I don't really crave

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  that I got on I hit the gym every day I'm not you know getting some like 12 pack and I'm not super rich and I don't sit around with the bros like smoking cigars whatever I think that the Andrew hates of the world have contributed to an aesthetic and a visual idea of what manhood and high value manhood at the top G mindset or whatever looks like rather than focusing on what does a good man do how does he treat the people in his community in his family how does he walk through the world I think that that is far more important like at the end of the day

• 2:18:06Speaker 07

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did the sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars only at McDonald's for a limited time

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  I don't care that you know when we started anything care that Alex didn't have a Lamborghini and have some mansion or was you know sitting around in these like really expensive suits with velvet loafers whatever I cared that he was a good person I cared that he was a leader

• 2:18:35Jack Selby?

  But would you have liked it if he had a Lamborghini?

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  I don't think it would have changed anything I might have looked at him and like why did you buy that like I've been it's like some

• 2:18:43Jack Selby?

  So it would have actually went against

• 2:18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah probably because but that's also just me personally

• 2:18:49Jack Selby?

  What if he had a nice, nice watch?

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  That would have been fine like that wouldn't have been a turn off but it also wouldn't that wasn't something that I was seeking

• 2:18:55Graham Stephan?

  You know what I think it is I think it's the it's the intention behind the purchase if the intention is to show it off then it's bad but if the intention is I got this cool Lambo because I love it yeah maybe that would be a little bit different

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  For sure if it's something that it's like I'm a car guy whatever like you know you have guys that you know collect Porsches and it's you know you see the like successful you know 40 year old guys and they have like they're really interested in this like specific type of car that's cool it's like you are interested in something that wouldn't have been a turn off at all it's like okay you have a hobby and an interest but if you're walking around presenting yourself trying to appear like you have this wealth and like you're flashy and like you're a macho dude or if it's like like you work out just for aesthetic purposes and you like spend a ton of time in the gym like flexing and looking at yourself that's so weird and it's like that's not manhood

• 2:19:42Jack Selby?

  So you're saying if your decisions are dictated by the external environment, or like your internal state of being is determined from that, then that is, that is not good. You should be doing things.

• 2:19:54Speaker 01

  You should be doing them because they're objectively good things and you should be pursuing good virtuous things with anything good intentions. It's like you should go to the gym because you want to be healthy and feel good and be able to protect those that you care about. But yeah, in terms of the, the top G's of the world, like I don't need your hyper like tailored suits and weird fancy cars and cigars.

• 2:20:19Jack Selby?

  Seems like the suits are really the big thing.

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, really the loafers, velvet loafers are just. Yeah, and I, okay, so this is just a thing for me. I nine times out of 10 hate, I hate it when men don't wear socks with loafers. Like I, and there's a specific loafer where it works like the, you know, like the like smoking, uh, the smoking loafer, whatever. Like a tuxedo loafer? Yeah, and it's like those, I get it, but when like I see guys out there now who wear like a traditional loafer that my dad might've worn to go work at, you know, the bank when I was growing up and they might have like a tie or they have a little buckle, no socks, or they have the little no show socks. That is a whole other thing. If you take off your shoe and you're wearing like the like tiny no show sock and you've like slipped them out of your loafer, I was horrible, like horrible. Um, that's just a pet peeve of mine.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  Maybe that's my hot take.

• 2:21:07Jack Selby?

  It sounds like that gives you the ick.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  It does.

• 2:21:10Jack Selby?

  What else gives women the ick?

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  I think it's different for every woman and I think that the ick thing bothers me because I think icks are just a normal part of like life. Like everybody has like a thing that's like, okay, I don't want you to do that. Like that just weirds me out, but I grew to a point on social media and I think this just is like social contagion in it like spiraling and who knows how, um, the implications that it actually had in the real world, but where people would be like posting videos of their boyfriend doing like a normal thing, being like, oh, I have the ick. I'm like, and girls in the comments saying, oh my gosh, you have to break up with him. Like one girl said, I remember watching a video and she was like, my boyfriend walking up a hill gives me the ick.

• 2:21:50Graham Stephan?

  Is it just like how he walks?

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that. It's just like something, whatever. But I also think it's like, when you love somebody and you're in a committed relationship, it's like you might see things that are, you know, kind of funny. Like, I do things all the time that I know Alex is like, he's more of a neat freak than I am. Uh, I don't even want to say neat freak. He's just like, everything has a place and I'm going to pick everything up. And I'm a little more, bleh. And there are things I do that I know he's like, this is like, how like, why does this woman do this? But I wouldn't, I don't think he would call it an ick. And there are certainly things that he does that I'll just kind of like giggle at where I'm like, you're really going to wear, like whatever he wears, and this is like a totally normal thing. But when he goes to the gym in like the winter and he has like the leggings on,

• 2:22:35Speaker 01

  and he like pulls his socks like all the way up over the leggings or whatever. And I'm just like, that kind of looks funny. And he's like, what am I trying to impress? Like, I'm married, it doesn't matter. Um, I don't really care because I love him and we're married. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's very weird, random things for women. Like the ones that I've seen, like walking uphill, talking to a waiter, buying, like, a girl said that it was like an ick, like the way her husband like scanned thing at this, like at the self-checkout line. Like, it's so weird.

• 2:23:05Graham Stephan?

  To me, that seems like they're just looking for things.

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, that's like the social contagion part of like, then it became something like you wanted to look for it and secretly film your spouse, which I have another just major problem with of people, both husbands and wives, significant others of either gender, like filming your spouse and then putting them online and like laughing about them in a public way. And it could be as simple as like, I think there are some times where it's like very good natured and you're laughing and having a good time, and that's totally fine. Where you're like posting him walking up a hill and it's like, oh, this is so, and you have like millions of people, because some of these videos go viral and the comments are like, oh my God, he's so weird, whatever. It's like, you might be laughing, but I can't feel good to like have that happen. And then on like a higher.

• 2:23:44Graham Stephan?

  He's going to be so insecure every time he walks up a hill.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  And it's like, it's not necessarily, like, you want to be like supporting and encouraging your significant other. That's another, and then that kind of goes into this other thing of it's a very common thing to see women. crap on their husbands or their boyfriends online. Like I'm gonna like make a video and be like, my husband did this, whatever. Why are you posting that on TikTok? Like, go speak to him or call your mom if you need to talk to somebody about something rather than.

• 2:24:12Graham Stephan?

  There was the one that Matt Walsh just posted, right? About the lady talking about the almost divorcing her husband.

• 2:24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:20Graham Stephan?

  Who was like perfect on paper, but he didn't attune to her mental load.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, with housework.

• 2:24:27Graham Stephan?

  Things, yeah, with housework.

• 2:24:28Speaker 01

  And when you get to like the, when you get past the like two and a half minute mark of the video and she's kind of talking about how they worked through it, the video is kind of, it's like, okay, I get what you're trying to say, like you were both working. You felt like you were taking on more at the home, whatever. But she started it by being like, I almost divorced my husband. He wasn't doing this, he wasn't whatever. Where it was like the video, and maybe this is just because people are chasing clicks and virality or whatever, and it's like, you could have just said, in a marriage, it's really important to understand the workload that both of you are taking on and to have open communication. This is something my husband and I struggled with and, you know, he really has done a great job.

• 2:25:04Graham Stephan?

  No, it wouldn't have. So you had to, like from an algorithm standpoint, your video is perfect. It was triggered right from the beginning.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  And she, but she does a lot of those videos. I've like seen a bunch of first step and you never see your husband, her husband's never on screen. And unfortunately, a huge majority of her videos are about him and all the problems that they've had in their relationship. Now, it seems like they're doing pretty well, but it's.

• 2:25:24Graham Stephan?

  It seems like they're doing fine.

• 2:25:25Speaker 01

  I know, yeah. Well, it's because it's always like things that they.

• 2:25:28Graham Stephan?

  He doesn't want to show his face anymore after that.

• 2:25:29Speaker 01

  Why would he? And they're always about like, we've worked through this now. So that's why I said maybe they're doing fine. But also I don't think I'd be fine if like Alex was online being like, God, Brett never. So I don't ever screw lids on things. That's his biggest pet peeve of like, I'll get a jar of mayo, I'll make a sandwich. I'll leave it on the counter because I don't want to put it away before I've gotten a lot better with this, but I want to go like eat my sandwich and then I'll go back and I'll like pick everything up. But not only will I like leave it on the counter for 10 minutes, I will also leave it unscathed. And so I'd be like the protein powder or whatever and he picks it up by the top and it like goes everywhere. And it's like if he got online and made a whole video about like Brett made another sandwich and she was doing this, so infuriating. She also like didn't wipe. He's somebody who,

• 2:26:12Speaker 01

  you know, washes off his dish every single time if he eats and I'll just like drop it in the sink. That would be, it just wouldn't feel, even if it's a small thing that I know I could do better at and I do try and I have gotten a lot better at it because it's just like a little thing that I can do to hopefully make his life a little bit easier. And also it's ridiculous. Like I can take the two seconds to like put something away and screw it on. It wouldn't feel good to have that blasted online. And it's like you want to uplift the person that you love, both in the home and in public. But women have gotten so comfortable with this idea of ragging on men, especially their spouses and posting about it. And again, I think that it's like, it started off as a more, you know, a minority, but with the social contagion aspect of it gets clicks, people are interested, they feel like they

• 2:26:57Speaker 01

  have people who are, you know, people pile on and they're like, yes, I'm affirming this is exactly what it is. And you just keep going and they see the attention that they get, which I just don't think is healthy at all.

• 2:27:09Jack Selby?

  So those are unreasonable things that you could dislike about your partner? What would you say are reasonable things where if you see this, you should run?

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:27:18Jack Selby?

  Like not like just even a red flag, but like an actual reasonable deal breaker that a guy could have towards a girl or a girl could have towards a guy?

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  And I can actually speak to some of the like conversations I've had with friends. I think the big ones that I've felt or that my friends and I've talked about are, I think the biggest one is a lack of ambition in a guy where I'm a huge proponent of, you know, you don't have to wait until your life is perfect to get married or start dating. Like, I don't think you have to be your final form. There's a lot of people who feel like I need to do all the things, I need to travel and then I need to get the right house, my car needs to be in the right place. I need to like be at the right place with me, whatever. And then I'll like think about getting married. I think that it's like you should know who you are and you should have your life together. You should not be a mess. But it doesn't matter if you haven't traveled all the places that you want to travel to yet. If you don't have the right job. It's like everything.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  In our lives that we're doing now, like traveling means so much more now that I get to go do it with Alex. Like, career wins are so much more meaningful because we're doing them together. Buying this like dream house is so special because it's our dream house and it's like we're building a life together. So that's kind of an aside of it, like a guy doesn't need to be all the way there. But I do think, especially if you are more traditional and you're looking for and you're dating intentionally and you want to get married. It's like you need to look for somebody who is, you know, has some gusto in their life and is wanting to make something of themselves. And it doesn't mean that they need to be on some track to make seven figures or whatever it is. But who wants to do something in the world and leave a lasting impact? And I think people often like will point to video games, be like, oh, he just sits around and makes video games, plays video games.

• 2:28:54Speaker 01

  I don't think video games are the root cause of it. I know a lot of very successful people who like my like female best friend is like a huge gamer obsessed with video games. And she's also wildly successful and motivated. Um, and Alex will play video games and he's incredibly successful and motivated. But it's that personnel, like the laziness and just the kind of like aimlessness. Maybe aimlessness is the right term where I think is a major turn off to a lot of women. Because it's like they, you know, want to get married, maybe they want to have kids, maybe stay at home. They don't want to be worried about like asking their husband to like, could you please maybe get a job that makes you happy? Like, do you have something in your life that's motivating you? Like, would you be able to support us? Like, I'm not asking for a lot of things, but like, would I be able to take them off?

• 2:29:39Speaker 01

  So I think that's like, and again, you don't have to be all the way there yet. But to show that you have some drive in your life, I think is really key. Um, so that would be a major one. Um, for me, I think excessive drug and alcohol use is major, major turn off. Um, but again, some women are into that kind of stuff and, you know, go out and party and want to do whatever. But I am thinking about like my group of friends and what I was looking for. If somebody was like going out every night and drinking a ton and smoking a ton of weed or whatever, that would be a major, like our lifestyles are just not aligned. So that's a big one. Obviously excessive like physical violence is a huge one.

• 2:30:19Speaker 01

  Like even if it's not directed at you, if there's somebody who can't control their tendencies and their emotions in that regard, I would be concerned about. Going into somebody's life in that regard. It's like, if you can't have a handle on that, just in the outside world, then how are you going to treat me? Um, I think those are the top three ones.

• 2:30:38Graham Stephan?

  How would you design the ideal marriage contract in 2025?

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. I think the ideal marriage contract is something that has kind of already been tried and true in a way. Like, I don't think, when I look at like a marriage contract, I don't see it as being like, the woman does this and works in this capacity and stays on, they have all these kids, whatever. But I think that the ideal marriage contract in my mind is serious mutual respect and understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses and what you bring to the marriage. And understanding that there are roles that you will play and that that is a net good thing. Like, I know that there are, I know that there are things that I am not as, kind of as we were talking about earlier, and understanding that I'm not going to try to, you know, fit

• 2:31:27Speaker 01

  myself into that role or be angry that Alex is, you know, better at that than I am or whatever it is, but just having mutual respect and knowing that there are roles that you will probably play. And, um, that was something that we talked about a lot. We did like premarital counseling. It wasn't a whole thing, but that was like the, like, it wasn't a big curriculum or anything that we did, but we had premarital, like, meetings, uh, with pastor that married us. And that was a big conversation. That was like the crux of all the conversations, actually. It was like, before you go into this, like, there's not going to be one marriage that works for every single person. Everybody's marriage is going to be different because everybody, their relationships are different, human beings are different, but you do have to kind of have some expectations

• 2:32:11Speaker 01

  and a plan for how things will go, of like an understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses. And if there is a big life change, a big decision that you are making, who are you going to look to? Like, how are you going to handle that? Do you know how to communicate? Have you figured out how you both communicate? Do you, Brett, do you trust Alex to make that decision? If he's going to make the final call, are you marrying somebody that you completely trust to, you know, kind of take the lead in your household? And the answer is like an unequivocal yes. So, yeah, I don't know if there is like a specific, like, do's and don'ts, but in terms of my life and like the way that I see the world, I do think that there is, you know.

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  Ahead of household, basically in the way that I've described of, you know, a man taking on a leadership role, because I think that that provides a lot of stability. But that you can't have that without a really strong foundation. You can't have that without respect and understanding the role that you play and having each partner value that role.

• 2:33:13Jack Selby?

  Would the deal breakers be any different for a woman than it would be for a man? Like, are there certain very specific things that if women do, you should just stay away because it's indicative of some sort of?

• 2:33:24Graham Stephan?

  Jack's asking for himself.

• 2:33:26Speaker 01

  He's trying to figure out.

• 2:33:26Jack Selby?

  I kind of am, actually, yeah.

• 2:33:28Speaker 01

  I think that, I think a lot of them are very similar. So I think the, the partying is a big thing. If I was a guy that was wanting a more traditional, marriage is a more traditional guy, like a girl that is sleeping around or going out and partying and getting drunk every night, I would probably be concerned about that.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  Unless it's something you're really into, then you guys can do it together. I have friends that are like love raves and they go and they rave together. And that's, you know, that's part of their relationship, but they're also not like the most, they don't have the most traditional marriage. So I think that is probably pretty aligned. I also don't think that you need to.

• 2:34:09Speaker 01

  I think the reasons for drive and ambition are going to be different for a woman and a man. But I do think men also, and I was literally just going through this with a friend of mine and hearing his, you know, feelings about this. But I do think it is also important for men, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but for a woman that you're interested in to have some kind of purpose in her life, to be driven by something, not to be like aimless or just like hoping that somebody's going to take care of her. She's just like bopping from one guy to another, but to have something that gives her life meaning and be driven by something. Because I think that that just makes a person more interesting. I think it also shows that, and I don't mean like has some career that she's chasing or whatever, but has something that she cares about, that she looks for,

• 2:34:50Speaker 01

  whether that is, you know, being a mother and really wants to be a mom, or whether she genuinely loves what she does because it provides meaning to her life. Or has a hobby and an interest that she dedicates a lot of time to. I think that that shows.

• 2:35:05Speaker 01

  I think it shows that somebody is interesting and multifaceted. I think it shows, gives you insight into their personality. I also think, the thing that I forgot to mention, I was actually talking to Alex about this the other day. He was saying, like, I had dogs as a single woman, and he didn't. And he was like, I don't think I would ever get like a pet as a single person. And I actually responded to that. I was like, it is actually, when I was dating, I was like, I would love it if a guy either had, like, a dog, had some animal to take care of, or owned a home and had to like be responsible for a piece of property. And obviously, in this economy, that's like, a lot to ask. But it was less about the tangible, like, physical item, and more so that he is showing that he is responsible for something, like, responsible

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  for another life, responsible for, you know, paying a mortgage on time and taking care of, like, he has saved up enough to buy this house and he cares for it. You know, I mean, you obviously talk so much about real estate, but of what goes into managing that and having that be part of your life. And it was less, again, it was less about like, I really want you to have a dog, I really want you to be a house. But it shows that, that you care for something. You have to keep something up. You are, you're indebted to somebody and you have to show up for them. Like, you can't just, like, leave a dog and go, you know, screw around for like months at a time, or, you know, not care for them. So, that was, I think that also goes back to, you know, having drive, having ambition, and showing that you're responsible for something.

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  And I think that that's good for men to look for, and women as well, of that they can have responsibility, that they are a partner that will show up for you. I'm having kind of trouble articulating why I think it's so important that people-

• 2:36:47Jack Selby?

  I think I'm getting what you're, what you're saying.

• 2:36:48Speaker 01

  Have a purpose.

• 2:36:49Jack Selby?

  Yeah, for me, I like ambition-

• 2:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:52Jack Selby?

  -in a partner, because I don't want me to be the center of their world.

• 2:36:56Speaker 01

  Yes, that's, yes, that's a great way to put it.

• 2:36:59Jack Selby?

  That they can focus on outside of me, because I also have other things that I want to focus on. And I would feel like there's a, you know, an imbalance there if she was just always texting me, always trying to reach out, always involved, and I had my own thing she had around.

• 2:37:14Speaker 01

  Some women, where I think women say one thing online where they're like, oh, I want him to like text me back and do all, you know, whatever. But if a guy is only texting you 24/7 and is only like revolving around you, I think that that's also, because then you see the flip side of that where, you know, women will make videos and post those chats. I'm like, oh my God, why is he texting you so much? It's like you can't win in that situation. But it just shows that you have a Something to do.

• 2:37:38Jack Selby?

  So guys, that's the answer. Wait to text.

• 2:37:41Speaker 01

  Wait to text.

• 2:37:41Jack Selby?

  Text right back. Wait to text. Okay.

• 2:37:44Graham Stephan?

  So I'm curious, in terms of career, going back to, you know, your start, why do you think the comment section blew up so much? And what were some of the struggles with those early days on YouTube?

• 2:37:55Speaker 01

  Um, I think that it was multifaceted. Comment section definitely filled a niche. And I know that it was like a niche that where there was a hole because I felt it as a young person. Like comment section really kind of grew out of necessity in a lot of ways. I had even, it was a, if you watched the preview to the Sean Ryan episode, he put, which I don't really know if he,

• 2:38:21Speaker 01

  like fully described, but at the top of the preview, there's like a video of me and I'm doing like this little like, I have my like leg up and I look like I'm in a studio and I'm talking about like this cultural issue. That was a pilot that I filmed back in 2021 and I pitched it to like Young Americans for Liberty and PragerU and whatever. I was like, I think that there should be a show like this because I'm a young woman. I just feel like I'm pretty like normal middle America and I listened to people like Dennis Prager and granted, I was more like politically inclined. It was interested in politics, but I listened to, you know, Ben Shapiro and I would watch his like debates on YouTube and I would listen to Jordan, whatever. But I didn't see anybody that was like speaking to me. Like there were very few women. And there were very few young people. Like Will Witt was the only young conservative that I saw.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  Not even like conservative, conservative, but just like not liberal. And I felt like there was that gap. So I came up with a show idea. Where I would have like, kind of inspired by Emma Chamberlain, actually, where she had all of these like fun cuts and memes and like, sound effects and it was very like, poppy and silly and fun and attention grabbing, because I I know for myself that it's hard to hold Gen Z's attention. And um, so that was part of it. And I created this and PragerU didn't pick it up, and it just didn't like, have a home anywhere. And so I was working at Young Americans for Liberty as just like a marketing strategist and doing their social media videos, but in that, they had had me be in a lot of their videos, kind of like at PragerU where I was just filming like TikToks for them, that kind of thing. So Daily Wire had seen me, and then when they

• 2:39:50Speaker 01

  ended up bringing me in and we had a meeting, their idea for a show from their social media team was very aligned with what I had designed in this pilot. And the reasons were the same. And the entire team that worked with me on comment section at the beginning, they were all young people. They were all like, in their early twenties, and they were like, we don't have this kind of show that's like a reactionary news show, that's young, that isn't like some thirty-five-year-old guy in a suit. It's not some like, woman in a pantsuit on, you know, Fox, or uh, or AP, or whatever it is. And we want to create this. And they had already, they had also been thinking about like, the fun edits and the fun memes, because they were like, we need something that's like, attention grabbing, that's funny, that's humorous, it's lighthearted. So they, it was like, we all kind of had to have a meeting of the minds.

• 2:40:33Speaker 01

  So I think that was probably indicative of a broader trend of people just wanting something like this. So I think that helped us take off immediately. We did no paid advertising. We put no paid behind the show or anything like that. And obviously, it helped that, you know, the Daily Wire circuit was helping promote it, but I also had a very different audience. Like, my audience very quickly became like, not the Daily Wire fandom. That became like, a very small portion of it. And it just took off. And I think that, so yeah, that kind of perfect concoction of people didn't have that at the time. I think there's a lot more of that now, which is awesome. There's tons of shows that are like, comment section, especially on the right. Uh, more reactionary shows, more streamers have popped up, which is awesome. I think more content is better. I love when people turn on a camera and talk about their beliefs and um,

• 2:41:16Speaker 01

  and show people that they're not alone in having these common sense, you know, conservative ideas. So that really took off. And I also think the humor aspect of it really spoke to people because politics is so, politics in this culture war, especially in 2021 and 2022, was so intense and was so angry and it still is. But it was like a different kind of vitriol in 2022 where, I mean, everybody was slinging insults right and left. Cities were burning. People were marching. It was awful. It was hostile. And the political news and the cultural like podcasts I would listen to were all very intense. And it was like, the world's gonna end if we don't do this. It's really serious. And they were like, serious on both ends. Nobody was having any fun. And I look at politics as kind of like reality TV. And I

• 2:42:00Speaker 01

  always say this, it's like, it's serious, but it's also insane. Like, a lot of the stuff that we went through over the past five years and the issues that we've been dealing with, they're like, they're kind of crazy. Um, like even, and you can always find humor in everything. And I think I'm probably more adept at this because of my childhood where it's like, I went through a lot of pretty serious stuff and I was able to find the light in it. And I'm even, you know, I'm able to look back on my childhood and laugh at some of the insane things that I witnessed with my brother and my dad. And it's just kind of like, that's life. If you're not laughing, you're crying, basically. And that's kind of the approach that I took with culture and politics of, yeah, this is objectively serious, but there's also like a lot of hilarious stuff. Like, we just need to be able to like, stop and say, like, we're kind of going crazy here. And I think

• 2:42:42Speaker 01

  that's why my audience grew to not just be like, super conservative people that were interested in politics, but just normal people and even people on the left who are looking around in the world and going, why are we not admitting that this is just insane? And like, being able to laugh at this because maybe it's not always as serious as people are telling us. Maybe it's not always as serious as people on the news or the, you know, the big Politico podcasters are saying. And I also felt that need. Like, I enjoyed doing the show because I had so much fun, because I was able to laugh at things and watch funny videos and find humor in it. So I think the humor and the format played into it. And I also think there's, and this is something that's so weird to say, but

• 2:43:26Speaker 01

  I think that there's like, I don't know, I resonated with a lot of people. I think it's sort of what we were talking about earlier, which Creates problems because then I have to have the conversations of, you know, what do I want to share and how public do I want to be and what do I want to keep private? But I was very open and I went into Daily Wire saying that, like, I want to keep a social media presence. I want to invite people into my life. I want to be able, I don't want to just sit behind a mic and talk about the news. I want to, I want people to know me for who I am because I always felt like if I knew who somebody was and knew sort of their story and, you know, their background, I would be able to kind of resonate and trust them more because I could watch talking heads all the time. But if I don't really, like, what makes you tick?

• 2:44:09Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:10Speaker 01

  Like, what built you into who you are? Like, why do you have the values that you have? And I always thought that was really important to share. It's like, I didn't just come out of the womb, like, fully formed with these ideas. Like, I learned them over time and I have life experiences that have, um, that have led me to these and have caused me to change my ideas. And so I think me being very open and upfront about a lot of things and involving my personal life and my childhood and stories and things that friends and I were talking about, like, if I was doing a cultural issue about young people, you know, I would bring in stories, you know, things that my friends and I were dealing with, which you didn't really see on, you know, you don't see that on a traditional, like, political show. And so it became less about,

• 2:44:51Speaker 01

  like, politics and more about Brett and humor and common sense and kind of giving people a, a safe, funny place in the world where they could go.

• 2:45:03Graham Stephan?

  Do you operate more on logic or intuition?

• 2:45:06Speaker 01

  I think it's a mix. I'm definitely very logically driven. Like, I'm somebody who leads with my head 100%. Like, that's where I, if my head is there, I can get my heart there, basically. Um, and I definitely, like, my default is going through things logically and muddling through issues, but I am also, I follow my gut for sure. And I'm somebody who trusts my gut and believes it. So I don't think you can have either or, but I definitely lead more with logic.

• 2:45:40Jack Selby?

  And was leaving the Daily Wire more of a decision out of logic or intuition?

• 2:45:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good question. It was both. I think that, um,

• 2:45:52Speaker 01

  You know, I basically said all that I can say about what led to me leaving and everything that transpired.

• 2:46:02Speaker 01

  But I think, you know, I'm really, really grateful for what we created, obviously, and I loved doing comment section, I loved building comment section. I think it was just such a, it was a light in my life and I hope that it was a light in a lot of people's lives and it obviously made a huge splash.

• 2:46:17Speaker 01

  And it was really great for those three years and I think in life you kind of have to know, and this is where it's like logical and kind of gut, you kind of have to know when things have run their course, whether it's a relationship in your personal life or in business or something that you are, you know, creating and putting out in the world. And so I think it was a mixture of both of kind of logically being like, okay, I think this is it.

• 2:46:44Graham Stephan?

  What was the moment that you knew that you had to move on?

• 2:46:49Speaker 01

  I don't know if I can pinpoint, there was not a specific thing or a moment, but it was last summer. It was just, I felt like things had changed in my life and what I wanted had changed and I looked forward into what I saw as my future and did a lot of, I think, digging and hard conversations with family and friends and Alex about what I was excited about in my life and who I wanted to work with and the autonomy that I wanted to have. It was a huge thing, having autonomy.

• 2:47:21Speaker 01

  And it was kind of a, just basically a, a slow burn, but last spring really started the thought in my head of basically just like, what's next? And what do I need to put into play in order to build the life that I see for myself, that Alex and I see for each other? And that required taking a, a pretty big leap.

• 2:47:42Graham Stephan?

  Was there anything that they could have done to have kept you?

• 2:47:47Speaker 01

  Um, everybody has their...

• 2:47:52Graham Stephan?

  Their number.

• 2:47:53Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even say number. I wouldn't even say number. I'd say, you know...

• 2:47:57Graham Stephan?

  Terms.

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:58Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  But truly, there is a, um...

• 2:48:04Speaker 01

  I think I'm grateful that we walked away when that like we separated when we did. I think that that was, there was a natural ending there. And a lot has changed at the company recently. And they've undergone a lot of executive changes. And I really hope for the best, especially because it's like, other people see me and they think that there's some, it was the same thing kind of happened when Candace left, when everybody was like, oh, there's this big, and hers was obviously a lot more volatile than mine. And there's a lot that's, has become more public and has been, has played out publicly. But, you know, they think that like she was not friends with me, Michael or Matt anymore, and that we never associated with her. It's like, it's hard. Business relationships end and you move on and you start new things.

• 2:48:48Speaker 01

  But you still care about the people that are there. It's like, Matt and his wife, you know, Alyssa, they're great friends. Alyssa's a really wonderful friend of mine. Michael Knowles is still an incredible mentor of mine and somebody I look to. Ben is wonderful. Ben and I have like never had a bad interaction. He was a very, very generous mentor while I was there. And I, so I will never look at, you know, what they're doing and go, I left. To hell with you, whatever it is. It's like, no, I, I hope that what they're doing really works and I, you know, for the sake of the people that I love there. I hope, you know, Matt and Michael keep producing amazing things and I love their show. So I think it's, people see one thing and then there's another thing that happens, you know, off screen and offline.

• 2:49:33Speaker 01

  So yeah, I wish the best. But I think it was, it was a natural ending at the right time.

• 2:49:38Graham Stephan?

  What was the most difficult part of branching out on your own?

• 2:49:42Speaker 01

  Not knowing what I didn't know. Like of just having to branch into something completely independently when I had like a kind of a company. I mean, not kind of a company, I had a company behind me. And

• 2:49:55Speaker 01

  There's sort of some misconceptions because some people thought that I was like totally produced. Like, and they also think this about like Matt and Michael too, of like they come in and their show is written for them and they sit down and they get their hair and makeup done and they're just like a mouthpiece. But all of us, like, we all researched our own shows. We would have people that would, you know, help us pull a story or whatever and would be running the cameras. But we, I wrote every single episode of the show that I did and I put the stories together. I drove the creation of it, as Michael did, as Matt did, as Ben does. Ben writes his own show every single morning. His like four hours of airtime, whether he's doing radio or whatever, he does all of that. He is, he does the mental load. Um, and so that was not hard. So I think a lot of people, there was like, oh, is Brett not

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  going to be as like smart now that she doesn't have like a team of Daily Wire writers ready for her? I was like, okay, well, that, you know, that was actually one thing that kind of got to my head of like, oh, my God, am I, are people going to like see me differently or whatever? But it was always me. So if they liked me, they were gonna hopefully still like me then, when I left. Um, but it was mainly the technical side of things. Like, they had hired the editors and they managed my advertising and I was a W2 employee. So I never had to worry about 1099s or having business expenses. Like, my taxes were all super easy, that kind of thing. Um, figuring out how hire people, that sort of thing. Do I want a, do I want to sell my ads internally? How do I want, now that I have complete control

• 2:51:21Speaker 01

  over how I advertise on the show, how do I want to do that? Is there a more innovative way that I could do that? Um, you know, now do I, financially, do I need to do 10 shows a week? Or am I have to be doing two?

• 2:51:36Graham Stephan?

  So as far as how your business works now, how, how is the income generated? Like, how does it work? What's your team like?

• 2:51:42Speaker 01

  So the majority of it comes from advertising, whether that is like programmatic ads on YouTube or the sponsors that we bring on, which I'm very, very particular about how we do advertising. And

• 2:51:56Speaker 01

  We have created the model internally and so we manage it internally, which is what I wanted to do, at least to start out with the show because I, you know, for the last three years had had somebody else managing everything and selling the ads and, you know, having the direct relationship with the advertisers and I wanted to change that, at least as I was starting because I just had no idea how it worked and I wanted to have something that worked for me and my values and my audience and the show and where I wanted it to go. So yeah, the majority comes from our like incredible advertisers and every single advertiser that I work with, like we know personally, we have a personal relationship with their executive

• 2:52:36Speaker 01

  team. These are brands that I actually use in my life. Like I don't, I don't take on advertisers that I can't fully stand behind because I think everybody online is trying to sell you something. That's how creators make money. Like you will always have programmatic ads, you will have, you'll be selling a course or a subscription or whatever it is. And I want to make sure that, again, going back to this idea that everything is really intentional, I want to make sure that if I'm bringing somebody on to the show, then I'm giving them an endorsement that I can 100% stand behind it, that I love the people, that I love the message of the company, that I love the product. And those are personal relationships as well as professional. So the majority of it is advertising. And then I make a small portion from a subscription platform that I have called

• 2:53:19Speaker 01

  Cooper Confidential, where I do those advice videos and I have a more personalized newsletter and people can watch ad-free episodes. But by far the most significant is advertising.

• 2:53:30Graham Stephan?

  And then how many people are on your team? What does it look like?

• 2:53:33Speaker 01

  Let me count. I have a Alex who works on my ad sales and we're expanding that team possibly soon, but right, it's literally just been him creating the entire program. And then I have a manager, I have a producer, who's a technical producer and I've basically just been producing everything myself in terms of, you know, creating the show and branding stuff. And then I have a manager and we just brought on a more creative producer to hopefully just help grow and innovate and drive everything that we're doing from the subscription model to the show. Just because I think I need some creative support in that regard, just so I can kind of, I think it's really hard when your brand is you and it's hard to like step outside of that and think of like driving

• 2:54:18Speaker 01

  the creative forward. So I'm bringing her in and she's somebody that I've worked with before. And then we have,

• 2:54:24Speaker 01

  Someone who I've also worked with previously, who manages all my posting. So he does all the SEO, gets the thumbnails made, helps with titling. I end up picking the titles, but it's like, hey, here's the direction I keep puts the, you know, the descriptions together, make sure it gets uploaded to all the correct RSS feeds. So yeah, that's him. And then I have a publicist and an attorney and they're all like, it's pretty lean.

• 2:54:46Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:48Speaker 01

  But the best part is it's like, it's growing, but I'm very intentional with how it grows. And it's all people that like, I genuinely love and who I implicitly trust. Cause again, very complicated when it's like, you're the brand and I'm very careful about how I'm, you know, how I represent myself publicly and the messages that I put out in the world. And I want to make sure that whoever I bring on has my best interests at heart and has the brand's best interests at heart, which I think is hard to find. I feel very, very fortunate. So they're all just really, really incredibly talented, but also just wonderful, wonderful people who I trust. And that was super important to me.

• 2:55:24Jack Selby?

  All right. So we got to wrap it up, but we have some rapid fire questions. I asked ChatGPT for some questions and usually it doesn't, it doesn't do a great job. This is a hilarious question. I want to, I want to ask it to you from ChatGPT. Who do you think is smarter, Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson?

• 2:55:39Speaker 01

  Oh, Jordan Peterson.

• 2:55:41Jack Selby?

  Do women have too much dating power in today's society?

• 2:55:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:55:46Jack Selby?

  Is it worse to be poor or lonely?

• 2:55:48Speaker 01

  Lonely.

• 2:55:50Jack Selby?

  Do influencers contribute to society or drain it?

• 2:55:53Speaker 01

  Oh, depends on the influencer.

• 2:55:55Jack Selby?

  Is therapy culture ruining resilience?

• 2:55:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:55:58Jack Selby?

  Should employers be able to see your OnlyFans or TikTok before hiring you?

• 2:56:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I think they already do. It's public knowledge.

• 2:56:04Jack Selby?

  Should kids under 13 be banned from having smartphones?

• 2:56:08Speaker 01

  Banning is hard, but I think parents should be strict and not allow it.

• 2:56:11Jack Selby?

  If a couple disagrees on politics, can they make it work in the long term?

• 2:56:15Speaker 01

  Yes, but I think that's becoming increasingly difficult in 2025. I think 30 years ago, yes, my aunt and uncle did it, but today they actually are on the same page because their values are the same and they kind of had to converge. I think in 2025, it's very different.

• 2:56:30Jack Selby?

  Should voting require a basic civics test?

• 2:56:33Speaker 01

  For sure. And citizenship and an ID.

• 2:56:36Jack Selby?

  Does universal basic income ever make sense?

• 2:56:41Speaker 01

  In a utopia society, yes, but a lot of things would make sense in a utopia society where there is a strict social construct or contract where everything is perfect and there are no outliers. I don't think it works in our society today.

• 2:56:57Jack Selby?

  Brett, thank you so much for coming on the show. What a pleasure. Thank you to the team here. Thanks, Graham.

• 2:57:03Graham Stephan?

  Thank you.

• 2:57:04Jack Selby?

  Thank you, guys. Thank you, Nashville.

• 2:57:06Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 2:57:06Jack Selby?

  Thank you to the studio.

• 2:57:08Graham Stephan?

  If you could tell them to subscribe, sometimes they don't listen to us.

• 2:57:11Speaker 01

  Subscribe. You should absolutely subscribe to this podcast because it is popping off and they do amazing interviews and they interview people on all sides of the spectrum from so many different industries and giving them the greatest pitch ever right now. It's literally an insane podcast. You should subscribe.

• 2:57:23Graham Stephan?

  Thank you so much, guys. Do it. It's free. It's free. Till next time.

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