Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead

Most of us default to small talk. It's polite, familiar, and feels like the safest way to start a conversation. But it may also be one of the biggest barriers to genuine connection. Dr. Laurie speaks with author and metal-health advocate Claire Eastham https://x.com/ClaireyLove about her month-long experiment replacing small talk with deeper conversations while living with social anxiety. She also chats with psychologist Nicholas Epley https://www.nicholasepley.com/ about why going deeper often scares us, what research reveals about opening up, and what happens when you tell a stranger about the last time you cried. Experts Mentioned: Claire Eastham https://x.com/ClaireyLove, author, blogger, and mental-health advocate Nicholas Epley https://www.nicholasepley.com/, Professor of Behavioral Science and Faculty Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business Arthur Aron https://www.psychology.stonybrook.edu/aronlab-/people/art.htm, Professor of Psychology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook Elaine Aron https://hsperson.com/, psychologist and author Resources Mentioned: We're All Mad Here: The No-Nonsense Guide to Living with Social Anxiety https://www.amazon.com/dp/1785920820?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback, by Claire Eastham (2016) A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593319540?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback, by Nicholas Epley (2026) “The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167297234003,” by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee Bator (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 1997) Related Episodes: “The Surprising Case for Oversharing https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/the-surprising-case-for-oversharing” “Make Vulnerability Your Superpower (with NBA Star Kevin Love) https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/make-vulnerability-your-superpower-with-nba-star-kevin-love” “Harnessing People Around us to Feel Happier (Live with Ethan Kross) https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/harnessing-people-around-us-to-feel-happier-live-with-ethan-kross” See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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  Pushkin.

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  I'm not a mysterious person. Like, I really wish I was. I've tried to be a cool girl. I can't do it, and that's not me. I'm just like, brrr.

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  For as long as she can remember, author and mental health blogger Claire Eastum has found social situations to be surprisingly stressful.

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  What if I say something stupid? What if I make a fool of myself? What if I'm boring? What if nobody wants to talk to me? There's always a lot of what-if questions mentally, and they are almost immediately accompanied by the emotional response, which is more anxiety, stress, fear, and then the physical symptoms such as pounding heart. Sometimes I might blush or sort of general feeling of unease I tend to get, like I want to bolt.

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  And the conversational norm that makes Claire want to bolt the most is small talk.

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  What do you think of the weather? What's going on?

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  You staying busy? Man, I can't believe it's already Wednesday. How is the traffic on your drive?

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  Oh, my God. I don't know if it's the same when you're in the UK. People love to talk about how they arrived at a venue. What road did you take? Like, I have no idea, mate. I just got here.

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  And don't get Claire started on this all-too-common conversation starter. How are you?

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  It just feels like too light of a question to answer because you think, I know the response is, I'm fine. How are you? But 50% of the time, I'm not fine. And I don't feel like answering that question inauthentically because it's a lie.

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  Claire has long dreaded spending time in small talk conversational autopilot.

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  I didn't know how long it was supposed to last. I didn't know what I was supposed to say because I'm not interested in the weather. It's like, it's raining again. Like, uh-huh. We can't go anywhere with this unless you take us somewhere. And I'm stressed that you might not do that, and then the responsibility will fall on me. And I don't know what to say apart from, you know, rain is wet.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  As you can hear, Claire does have some not-so-small feelings about small talk. But I'm guessing that at least some of you listening right now can relate. Talking about the weather for the fifth time in a single afternoon, being asked how you're doing by someone who doesn't even listen to your response, superficial interactions like these can feel painful. They can cause you to second guess if you're doing the whole social connection thing right or if it's even worth it. Which leads me to today's happiness hot take. You ready? Here it is. We should completely get rid of small talk. I'm talking zero tolerance. We need to fully rethink our usual approach to conversational autopilot. Why kill off small talk, you ask? Well, research shows that small talk has an opportunity cost that our minds don't realize.

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  All those how's the weathers and is it Friday yet's cause us to miss out on a happier way that we could be spending our social interactions, a type of conversation that feels less stressful, more engaging, and way, way more fun.

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  Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

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  I would sort of scan people, almost like the Terminator. And they're like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, looking for signs that this person doesn't like me, this person's bored. And I would view all social interactions as a success or a failure.

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  Growing up, author and blogger Claire Eastham often thought of social situations as if she was going into battle. Take family get-togethers. Some kids love seeing their relatives, but Claire hated family celebrations so much that she'd regularly get stomach aches on the car ride over. She'd spend days before these upcoming events worried about conversations she'd be forced to endure.

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  Oh, and so-and-so got this promotion, and so-and-so's got this many grades at school, and duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. I'm like, why are we having these chats?

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  But there was one family member that young Claire did feel comfortable around, someone who seemed to detest small talk just as much as she did, her grandmother, Evelyn Eastham.

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  My grandma used to just sit in the kitchen, chain-smoking cigarettes and sort of slagging the rest of the family off because she did not perform for anybody.

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  Grandma Eastham wore her conversational authenticity with pride.

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  What do you really think of your uncle Paul? Because I'll tell you what I think.

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  He thinks he's flashy with his BMW. Well.

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  Claire's grandmother also found a way to make conversation more fun, often by adding a bit of ridiculousness.

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  She managed to convince me that she wrote The Wizard of Oz, but she set it in Wigan in the UK. I believed this. But she told me like half the story around this dining room table, and I was like, this is amazing, Grandma.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  And she would encourage me. She's like, well, you gonna write a story? Like, what would you write it about? And what characters would you have? And then she'd be like, well, you should write it down, and then next time I see you, you could tell me about it.

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  Evelyn's off-the-wall questions and authentic curiosity helped young Claire feel more comfortable during family gatherings. But as Claire got older, safe social spaces like these felt rarer and rarer.

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  When I have to perform, that's what I call it, the how are you? How did you get here? It's more stressful for me because I feel like I'm swallowing part of my personality to fit in. And then all I do is clockwork. Like, how long do I have to stay? How long am I here for? Because I'm getting no enjoyment out of this, and it's just making me feel more anxious.

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  Whenever Claire was forced to be social, she found herself seeking out allies like Evelyn.

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  I would just try and find the people who would make me feel like I could be myself, really. Like, who's not playing the game? You, marvelous.

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  But that got harder after Claire graduated and entered the working world. Securing a position at one of the most prestigious publishing houses in London was huge for Claire's blossoming career, but it meant regularly facing the sorts of social battlegrounds that she feared the most.

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  And I think there's a lot of people here I potentially have to perform to. I can't control this environment. I can't control what's going to happen next.

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  To gain back a sense of control, Claire developed a whole host of not-so-healthy coping strategies, behaviors like extreme people-pleasing.

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  My friend said this about me, actually. She said, you could get hit by a bus and, you know, your arm would come off, and you'd be like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I'll just pick it up and walk off.

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  And avoiding potential small talk situations to the point of bladder discomfort.

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  I would, sometimes I'd go to the loo because I didn't want to have to walk past so many people's desks.

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  Claire even found herself turning to the unhealthy standby that many of us use in social situations.

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  Alcohol was a massive crutch. It was a lot of sedating how I was feeling.

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  But maladaptive coping strategies like these can only take a person so far. And one fateful day, Claire had what she likes to call a breakthrough breakdown.

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  It was a big acquisitions meeting and had, what I now know was a panic attack. I didn't know what it was then. I thought it was a stroke. I thought, okay, so I'm going to die, but I really don't want to make a scene. For some bizarre reason, my brain told me that in order to get out of the situation, I should stand up very slowly in front of everyone and say, in a posh voice, which I don't have. I have the Nara virus and I must leave at once and then legged it out of the room.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Claire then continued legging it into the elevator and out of the building. And then miles away down the street.

• 11:17Speaker 04

  I did not stop running because something had snapped and I did not know what to do. So yeah, there was no sort of sweeping that one under the rug.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  The next morning Claire went to her doctor. She explained how anxious she'd been at work for months and how sitting through that big meeting seemed to trigger a medical emergency.

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  It was diagnosed in under 30 seconds. Like this is textbook social anxiety disorder and you had a panic attack and a big part of me didn't want to accept it.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  At first Claire was pretty self critical about her diagnosis, but with time she developed more self compassion. Eventually she wanted to share that compassion with others who were going through similar mental health challenges. So in 2013, she started a blog entitled, We're All Mad Here, in which she shared her experiences with social anxiety as well as lots of relatable advice. Thousands upon thousands of subscribers signed up. The blog quickly turned into a book with the same name, which sold out of its first print in just five days. Claire went from denying her disorder to becoming an international expert.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  Social anxiety, a lot of it comes from repressing who you are. I think of social anxiety as you being like, I'm in here, I'm in here, let me out, let me out, why are you punishing me?

• 12:30Speaker 03

  But Claire was about to enter a period where that sort of punishment, as she called it, would die down a lot. Because for Claire and pretty much every other human on the planet, social interaction as usual was about to undergo a massive change.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  In lockdown, the world shut down and we, the conversations that we had did tend to be more meaningful. It's funny, you wouldn't say, how are you? Because it's just like, I'm still stuck in my house. Same as yesterday.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Nothing has changed. What else do you want to talk about? You know, we had to be more creative.

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  Claire thrived in the unique moment that was 2020. In the midst of a global pandemic, people were feeling vulnerable. So they tended to drop the usual pleasantries in order to connect a bit more deeply. Conversations were taking place on a computer screen, but Claire still found them to be more real, more like the ones she remembered with her grandmother Evelyn back in the day. Claire hoped that this shift in small talk would last once everybody went back into the real world.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  I'll never forget, I went into a Costa coffee shop, was one of my first interactions and locked eyes with someone and she was sort of like, how are you? How's the weather, blah, blah, blah. And I was just sort of like, I can't remember what to say.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  And Claire wasn't alone. Many people reported a drop in their social skills post COVID, which meant that our surface level small talk interactions became even more strained than they were before. After months of more authentic seeming conversations, Claire's return to the world of small talk felt like torture. And that is when Claire made the decision that there had to be another way.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  I'm sick of like, being so horrible to myself about this. So, right, we're deliberately not going to do it now. I'm not going into another social situation thinking, make sure you seem normal for the first couple of minutes and then you can be yourself.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  What if, Claire thought, I just got rid of small talk altogether? What if for one entire month, I chose to start every new conversation by embodying my inner Evelyn and just getting straight into the weird, authentic stuff that I'd have more fun talking about?

• 14:31Speaker 04

  I thought, let's do it. Let's do it as a fun experiment. And I, I really did have faith that a lot of people would respond positively.

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  How do conversations go when you force your partners to go deeper? When you completely reject the usual pleasantries for an entire month? Well, we'll find out when the Happiness Lab returns from the break.

• 14:57Speaker 03

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• 16:08Speaker 01

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• 19:31Speaker 05

  I went in totally nervous. I had never been sweating bullets before a talk as much as I have with this one. Cause when you run a live demonstration in front of an audience, if it doesn't work for some reason, you are really sunk.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  This is my friend and Happiness Lab regular, the psychologist Nick Eble. He's telling me about the first time he tried out what has now become one of his most famous social connection interventions.

• 19:54Speaker 05

  I was out in Connecticut, speaking at a financial decision making conference that I'd invited to come and speak at. And we've got a room of maybe 50, 60 people sitting there. These are all high level executives running pension funds. I mean, these are serious folks. I was really the only one not wearing a suit that day. And they had not really anticipated that they'd be bringing somebody in to do touchy feely sort of things, but that's what I was there to do.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Nick studies the psychological effects of engaging in the sorts of social situations that we assume will make us feel awkward. In previous Happiness Lab episodes, Nick has shared his research on what happens when people strike up a conversation with a stranger or sincerely express gratitude to someone they haven't spoken to for a while, or ask a random person on the street for help with a vulnerable situation. In all of these cases, Nick finds that people's interactions feel much less awkward and much more enjoyable than they think. But Nick was also interested in what happens when we ratchet up the awkwardness of conversations even higher. What happens when we channel our inner Evelyn Eastums and chat with complete strangers about the most vulnerable topics possible?

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Nick was going to find out, using the titans of the financial industry as his guinea pigs.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  We start talking. I present some of my early research and then I tell them what we're going to do. Then in a minute, we are going to put up some questions on the screen and I'm going to pair you up with another person and you're going to have a conversation with them about these questions.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  But the questions Nick put up on the screen weren't part of the usual small talk script. Things like, where do you work? Or how was your commute? His questions included, what is one of the most embarrassing moments of your life? If you could undo one of the mistakes you've made in life, what would it be and why? And can you describe the last time you cried in front of another person?

• 21:41Speaker 05

  I mean, it's not the most energetic room to begin with, but you could just feel the energy just drain right out. There was a guy sitting right in front of me. I will never forget it. As soon as I put up these questions, everybody kind of groaned, but he yelled out, oh, expletive. Yeah. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear. Oh shit, is what he said.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  But Nick forged on. He began the exercise by having the executives make some predictions. On a scale of one to 10, how much do you think you're going to enjoy this vulnerable conversation? How connected will you feel to the person afterwards? And how awkward will you feel? After completing their surveys, the businessmen paired up and got chatting.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  Started a little bit slow at first, but then things just started to shift, like the room just started to turn. It got lively. By about 15 minutes, which is when I thought I was gonna bring them back, they were going so strong in their conversations, I couldn't figure out how to get them back. Right? Like, I'd never faced this before. I'm saying, "All right, clap in my hands, time to come back." Eventually, I get the microphone and I gotta do a countdown from five, which I learned from my kid's kindergarten teacher works. And then finally got them back. And then I had them report how the conversations had actually gone, how awkward they actually were, how much they actually enjoyed the conversation. The gaps were stunning.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  The execs predicted that their conversations would feel mediocre at best, that they wouldn't enjoy the exercise all that much because they'd be feeling awkward the entire time. But after the exercise was complete, they reported that their actual conversations were far less awkward and far more delightful than they expected. To their absolute shock, ditching the usual small talk felt great.

• 23:19Speaker 05

  You didn't even need to look at the data, you could feel it in the room. These people who had started out very nervous, you could see them in their conversations that they'd just come to life. I remember one couple over on the left, one pair, they hugged at the end, which like, these are not huggers, right? There was a guy up in the way back who was tearing up. Everybody was shaking hands when they were done. You didn't need to see the data, you could see the data right in front of you.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Psychologists have known about the connective power of deep conversations like Nick's for some time. Consider, for example, what's known as the FAST Friends Procedure. This now-famous technique was first developed back in the 90s by psychologists Art and Elaine Aaron, a married couple who met and fell in love rather quickly when they were young researchers, an experience that got the pair interested in the factors that cause people to connect rapidly. Here's how the Aaron's FAST Friends Procedure works. Two strangers are paired together and asked to discuss a series of 36 deep questions with one another. The questions start off relatively casually, things like, "Would you like to be famous?" Or, "If you could pick anyone in the world, who would you want as a dinner guest?" But as conversation continues, the strangers start going even deeper,

• 24:30Speaker 03

  asking each other questions more like the ones Nick used with his executives. Things like, "How do you feel about your relationship with your mother?" And, "If you died tonight, what would you most regret not having told someone?"

• 24:42Speaker 05

  Right? They start from pretty shallow, and then they slowly escalate, like a 747 jet taking off the runway, slow and steady.

• 24:50Speaker 03

  The Aaron's correctly hypothesized that this slow increase of mutual disclosure would cause people to feel more connected. But the researchers also assumed the other variables would matter for connection, factors like how interested people were in doing the procedure, or how similar people's answers were to one another.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  And those things just did not at all. The only thing that mattered is, "What were you talking about?" And at the end of all of those questions, the people who had talked about more meaningful things, they felt much, much closer.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Nick and his colleagues have found similar effects using this shorter and more extreme version of the FAST Friends Procedure.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  We don't take the 747 off-the-runway approach. We're more like hopping to a helicopter, right? And you're gonna go deep right away. And that looks like it works. I have had people say, "This was the best conversation I have ever had." I have had people in these sessions tell me that they told somebody something they have never told somebody else before.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  Across thousands of participants, both in laboratory settings and at real-life events like that financial conference, Nick's results are nearly always the same. Deep conversations consistently make us feel happier and more connected than polite small talk does.

• 26:02Speaker 05

  What's interesting to me is that you can have those conversations almost any day that you want to, if you choose to do it.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  But it seems like most of the time, we don't choose to do it. Nick says we often get stuck in the small-talk mode that socially anxious blogger Claire Eastham detested so much.

• 26:20Speaker 05

  So we talk about current events. We talk about what you do for a living, right? But not, "Do you love what you do for a living? Is this your dream job?" Small talk is all the outside stuff. Deep talk is going into where your heart sits, to where your beliefs sit, to where your values sit, to where what's really important to you sits. It means going deeper inside somebody's mind, away from the superficial stuff to something deep. And you can fail at small talk if you don't feel up on current events, or you don't know something about somebody's job, or you didn't go out and see this movie that somebody else saw, or you don't watch sports, right? You can fail on that stuff because it's about news and things. I think it's actually harder to fail at deep talk.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  So these deep conversations make us feel really good, but how often are people having these deep conversations?

• 27:05Speaker 05

  Well, certainly not as often as they would want to. So at the end of these conversations, we ask people, "How deep was this conversation?" They say, "Really deep." So this is, you know, on a 0 to 10 scale, we're talking like a 7, that's how deep this was. And we ask them, "How deep are the conversations you typically have?" They say, "Like a 2, not very deep at all." And then we ask them, "How deep are the conversations you would like to be having?" And they say, "Well, maybe not quite as deep as that one, on average." We don't have to talk about the last time we cried in front of another person all the time. But they say more like a 6, way deeper than the conversations they're typically having. And that's what's so interesting to me as a psychologist. If these are the conversations you want to be having,

• 27:49Speaker 05

  and you enjoy them a lot, why are you not having them?

• 27:53Speaker 03

  The first reason, Nick says, is that we have some unusually miscalibrated beliefs about how good we'll be at conversation generally. We tend to assume we'll be pretty bad at it, which is a result that, as a psychologist, I find to be a very weird effect. Usually, when researchers ask people how good they are at some desirable trait relative to the average person, they tend to overestimate that ability. They show what social psychologists call "the above-average effect." For example, one study found that around 70% of people think they're above-average at performing their job, cooking, reading, and even taking care of personal hygiene. Of course, 70% of people being above-average on all these traits is statistically impossible.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  But people don't seem to realize this, at least for most desirable traits. But when you ask the same people how good they are relative to the average person at conversation, you find the exact opposite effect.

• 28:48Speaker 05

  We're above-average on all these things, leadership ability and...

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Driving.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  Driving, yes. The ability to get along well with others. I wear all-stars at all these other things, but when it comes to talking to people, the thing we do so much of, people think they're terrible at it.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  So why does conversation give us so much self-doubt?

• 29:05Speaker 05

  So, part of it, I think, comes from failing to understand reciprocity. The norm of reciprocity is the dominant social behavioral norm on this planet. So if I smile to you, what do you do back to me? You smile back. If I don't smile at you, what do you do to me? You don't smile. I say hi to you, you say hi back to me, right? If you want somebody to be friendly with you, be friendly with him first. But people don't seem to appreciate the power of that norm. We don't seem to realize if you open up to somebody else in conversation first, they tend to open up to you in return. You've signaled that you trust them, that you're interested in them, and they then take an interest in you.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  So much of our conversation pessimism stems from the fact that we don't realize that our partners will happily reciprocate the work that we put into trying to connect with them.

• 29:50Speaker 05

  We think we're paddling upstream a canoe with one paddle. And what we forget is there's somebody else in the boat with us too, who is helping us. You don't have to drive the entire conversation. You can, if you'd like a conversation to be more interesting and meaningful, you can do that. You have the power to do that if you try. But what we don't appreciate is that when I open up to you, you're gonna open back. We're gonna be paddling this canoe together, this conversation, together. And that's what people don't seem to realize.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  We also forget that how we steer a social interaction will affect how our partners react. Nick did a clever study that tested this.

• 30:28Speaker 05

  This was one where we sent people around the museum and we asked them to just assess, "How friendly are other people at the museum today?"

• 30:36Speaker 03

  In one condition, Nick coached his subjects to be friendlier than they would normally be. They were told to smile at the other people they ran into, and to interact by saying hello whenever they could.

• 30:46Speaker 05

  In the other condition, they were just like detectives. They just went around, walked around, and just noticed how friendly people seemed to be. But we didn't tell them to engage with other people. When they came back to us, they reported having a more positive walk when they were smiling and saying hello to people. But they also reported that people at the museum were friendlier that day. Than people in the control condition. Simultaneously, that makes all the sense in the world and no sense in the world. Right? There were not different people at the museum that day. You made people different and you made them be friendlier by engaging with them first. It wasn't that there were friendlier people at the museum. It's that you were friendlier.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  You used the power you had to make people friendlier and you didn't recognize that.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Another thing that people don't seem to realize about the norm of reciprocity is how it affects the grace people are willing to give us during social interactions. When we're about to go deep with someone new, we often start to hear what Nick likes to call the cringe voice, that voice inside our head that cringes as soon as it thinks of all the things that could go wrong when we start to engage in this new conversation. But the cringe voice doesn't take into account reciprocity norms. It forgets that if we speak to someone openly and authentically, that person tends to respond with kindness, not with judgment. All of these findings have convinced Nick that it's time for all of us to ditch the usual small talk in favor of deeper conversations. He outlines his advice for how to do this in his excellent new book, A Little More

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection. Many of Nick's tips involve finding ways to go deeper in conversation a little more quickly, often much more quickly than we assume is appropriate.

• 32:32Speaker 05

  There are places where small talk works. And the place where small talk works is often the first question, the first thing you ask somebody about. What is it you do for a living? Where is it you live? What do you like to do? Right? It's often a good launchpad. It's a good starting point to engage with somebody. And it also allows you to signal that, you know, you're not a crazy person. It allows you to show some interest. But you can just get to deep, meaningful stuff much faster than you think. And so if you would like to have more deep, meaningful, better conversations in your life, you can choose to do it. And it's often on that second question. You can do it in two steps, I think, usually. So what is it you do for a living? Do you love what you do for a living? What was your favorite part about it? What did you love the most about it?

• 33:15Speaker 05

  You find out kind of what people are about and then you find out why.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Have your conversations gotten better since choosing to go deeper?

• 33:20Speaker 05

  Absolutely. For one thing, I've learned that having these deeper conversations is a lot about the mindset that you take when you approach somebody else. If you start taking an interest in people, recognizing that most people are kind and they're decent and they're interesting, they know things you don't, your whole world starts to look different. You see strangers sitting on the bus with you who are not like these scary creepy people, but these are fellow human beings who have interesting things to tell you. And suddenly the world looks friendlier and nicer and kinder. And I've talked to so many people who have talked to people a lot, who go through the same experience. It just changes the way you see people. You learn very quickly.

• 34:02Speaker 05

  You can get to know people and your conversations are just much better. Your connections with people are just much better. You can share things with people that maybe you never would have before. And I do this all the time. I've lost, when it comes to deep conversation, I've lost the cringe voice. I just don't have it anymore.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  Conversations and connections that feel much better and fully turning off that cringe voice that makes us feel terrible in social interactions? I gotta admit, all that sounds pretty good. But Nick is a world expert on the science of connection. It makes sense that he can pull off deeper conversation without his cringe voice butting in. But would the same deep talk strategy work for someone who's been clinically diagnosed with an exceptionally loud cringe voice?

• 34:47Speaker 04

  You're a loser. You're weird.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Could committing to deep conversation for an entire month work for a person who's spent decades being mortally terrified of small talk?

• 34:56Speaker 04

  It was like, you've got 18 more days, Claire. You said you would do this, so we're gonna finish it.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Blogger Claire Eastham will return to tell us how her small talk ditching experiment went when the happiness lab returns from the break.

• 35:14Speaker 01

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• 39:42Speaker 03

  When we last left mental health blogger Claire Eastham, she'd had an epiphany. Feeling tired of the pressure she regularly put on herself during social interactions, Claire decided to embark on an experiment. For one entire month, she would replace all small talk with the sort of weirder, more authentic questions that would make her grandmother Evelyn proud.

• 40:01Speaker 04

  It's going to be selfishly, something I'm interested in genuinely. If they ask me a small talk question, I will twist it without being rude.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  Her experiment began on the night of a friend's art show, exactly the kind of social situation that Claire would usually dread.

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Because it was an art show, everyone was going in with, what do you think of the art? Obviously, and I don't know anything about art.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Ignoring her usual cringe voice, Claire launched into her first attempt to go a little deeper.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  This woman said to me, what do you think of the art? And I said, do you remember your art teacher from school? Like, I can remember mine. And then she suddenly just switched.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  The woman lit up as she talked about what she remembered from her elementary school art class. She then asked Claire about her own experiences. They laughed with one another as the conversation flowed. It was the first time that Claire had actually had fun at a social event. As she walked home from that art show, she realized that day one of her experiment had been a huge success.

• 40:58Speaker 04

  We're going to keep doing it because it's lighting us up.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  In the weeks that followed, Claire found ways to shift all manner of shallow conversations into topics that went a bit deeper. When a barista asked her how she was enjoying the weather, she asked him what his favorite season was and why. Or take the guy who asked Claire what she'd been watching on TV lately.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  He was talking about Killing Eve, the TV show. And then I was like, if you could, you know, kill someone and you could pretty much get away with it, like, what would be the plan? And he was just like, I've got a complete plan. I know what I would do. And she's like, gentleball, you need to get barrels of acid. And they explained how we would get said acid because he's like, no body, no crime. Like, and it's the stomach that's the hardest bit to get rid of. So you need to be able to like chop it up. It was really graphic and I was like, wow.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, wow. But potential ax murder interactions aside, Claire deeply enjoyed just how positively other people reacted when she shut down the usual shallow conversation.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  God, the amount of people who said to me, oh, I don't like small talk either. This is brilliant. This is so refreshing.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  Or take Tracy, the middle aged woman Claire decided to approach at her local cafe.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  I'd seen her quite a few times and I was like, she's really cool. She's really confident. So I never really approached her, but because it was for science, damn it.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  Claire started by asking Tracy what she did for exercise. Tracy explained that she thought of herself as a member of the 5:00 AM club, those people who go for walks super early in the morning, even when it's still dark out.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  I was like, so how do you keep yourself safe? And she's like, carry a rock. I was like, you being serious? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I let people see that I'm carrying this rock, like a brick. And then from there, she sort of told me how somebody had tried to get her in a van when she was in her 30s and she beat the shit out of them. And I was just intrigued. And I ended up being honest with her about, I'm actually doing this experiment with small talk. And she said, I love it. And then explained that I'm quite a socially anxious person. She said, I'm not getting that vibe at all. And I love having these kind of conversations.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  And that wouldn't be the last conversation that Claire had with Tracy.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  We met up a couple of days later and talked for two hours, like nonstop over coffee about everything from star signs to travel, to intergalactic stuff, to past lives, to spirituality, to films. It was just very childlike, you know, when you have a sleepover and you're a teenager and you just like talk anything and it's like addictive. It was, it was amazing.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Claire admits that not all her attempts at deep conversations went as well as the one with Tracy.

• 43:43Speaker 04

  Not everyone's going to like you, which is a really basic thing to say, but it took me a really long time to accept that one. Not everybody's going to like you and that's okay. It's about finding one person you connect with in the room. I'll take that.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  Claire has also learned not to beat herself up when a conversation doesn't go as well as she expected.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  It's all right. You, you don't have to continue talking to this person. You can politely leave. Now I just think, oh, fair enough. And then on to the next.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Claire's experiment also taught her the same insight that psychologist Nick Epley shared earlier, that she was more in control of her everyday interactions than she thought, that she wasn't the only one paddling that conversational canoe, that she had the agency to choose where the discussion went and to steer interactions towards topics that felt more authentic.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  It made it fun again. And for someone with social anxiety, it can feel like they're a bit of a minefield and this just made it fun.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Indeed, Claire had so much fun with her experiment that she wanted to try out some of her favorite deep questions with yours truly.

• 44:46Speaker 04

  Because I'm getting a good vibe with you.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  Oh, that's good.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  If you could have any mythological creature as a pet, what would you go for?

• 44:56Speaker 03

  Oh, very interesting. Um, most of them are not domesticated, so they're going to like make a mess of the house and, you know, poop and pee on the floor and stuff like that. So I might go for like a small one.

• 45:09Speaker 04

  Like a fairy.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Like a fairy, yeah. I feel like a fairy, you could throw a diaper on her and be all right.

• 45:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  What's yours?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  See, I have absolutely no self-control, so dragon, obviously. And just deal with the chaos that comes with that and burn places to the ground. And straight away, that tells me more about your personality and it tells you more about mine.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Like you're a very, so you're very thoughtful, practical.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  You're a chaos agent who's totally fine with burning things down in her own home.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  Absolutely no common sense, yes.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Another of Claire's favorite get to know you questions is this. As a kid, did you ever have a crush on a cartoon character?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Oh, Robin Hood, the Disney.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  Me too, the fox. Yes, same, same.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Do you know, you're the first person who said that. Most people look at me like.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  No, no, I'm totally.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  Come on, he can fight and he's cheeky and like, he is the one for me. If I could change species.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  And secretly, I think my husband looks a little bit like the fox from Robin Hood. Yeah. I have to admit, chatting with Claire about all these weird questions was really fun. And not just because I got to talk about my cartoon crush. I genuinely felt like those inquiries made us feel closer, like they could be part of some new fast friends procedure updated for the 21st century. In fact, I liked Claire's questions so much that I decided to try some of them out with the deep talk expert himself.

• 46:34Speaker 05

  These are not my approved questions.

• 46:35Speaker 03

  No, no, no. But maybe, maybe you'll put them in. Some of them are pretty good. This was one that I thought was very diagnostic. If you could have one mythological creature as a pet, which creature would you pick?

• 46:45Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness. I would like the horse with the wings. That's Pegasus, right?

• 46:50Speaker 03

  That's what my husband said.

• 46:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, who doesn't want to fly? Are you kidding me? Horse is awesome, flying horse. That's like, you know, an exponential increase in awesomeness of a horse. Totally.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  When I answered, I hadn't thought of a horse. I was just thinking like, most mythological creatures are like not domesticated.

• 47:05Speaker 05

  Oh, the scary kind.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  Like, I was like, I just want like a small one, like a fairy. Like you put like a diaper on it, like, yeah, okay. I've known Nick for a long time, but Claire's questions helped me realize just how much I didn't know about Nick, all the personal things we hadn't yet had a chance to talk about. What was your art teacher like in school? Did you like art as a subject?

• 47:25Speaker 05

  No, I hated art. However, the best class I have ever taken in my entire life was a pottery class when I was in high school. The most consistently fun every day, the one I always looked forward to. It was the one I remember from high school, really enjoying a lot.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Do you do pottery now?

• 47:41Speaker 05

  You know, I don't, I don't. But I do do the woodworking equivalent of it, which is lathe. I do, I do lathe work. I love that feeling. And so that has stuck with me.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  Claire says that she often has a similar experience when going deeper with friends.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  And this sounds a bit woo woo, but it felt like magic. We all know that we're all in our own heads, our own narratives. I don't think we mean to be self-centered. It's just, that's what we're focused on, right? Our own experience, our own perception of reality. So when you suddenly have that light up moment with someone, it feels like magic to me. I just keep saying lights me up because it really does.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  I asked Claire to share some final advice about bringing the light of deep conversation into our lives.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  Start small. People will find their own feet. The most important thing is to start. Someone says, how are you? Just like, do you know what? I've just finished reading this book or I've just finished watching this thing. It's a gentle way to maneuver it. You couldn't even own it. It depends on how brave you are. You could own it and say, I'm not going to small talk. Do you mind if I ask you about this instead? And you don't have to do it for 28 days. You could just do it for a day. See what it does to your mood. See if it raises your vibration a little bit.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  So that is today's happiness hot take. We all need to ditch the small talk and go a little deeper. I know, I know, your cringe voice is probably saying that it'll be awkward or that people will think you're weird if you get too vulnerable. Or if you say, reveal that you've long thought that your husband looks like a cartoon fox character. Believe me, I get it. But the science shows that our conversations and connections can feel much, much better if we channel our inner Evelyn Easthams and commit to going a bit deeper. And if you need some ideas, Nick was kind enough to let me share his full list of deep questions. You can check them out at drlorisantos.com/deepquestions. That's drlorisantos.com/deepquestions.

• 49:37Speaker 03

  And if you want to learn even more tips for connecting deeply, be sure to check out Nick's new book, A Little More Social, which is on sale now. Next week, we'll continue our happiness hot takes with one that's specifically for the guys in the audience. We'll see why dudes today need more bromances.

• 49:53Speaker 06

  Like if I meet a dude and I like him and I want to sort of get to know him, I'm never going to say, whereas my wife might, you want to have a cup of coffee sometime? A guy is never going to do that.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  That's next week on the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

• 50:12Speaker 03

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