The Entrepreneurial Life Cycle That Will Make You Poor Or Rich (on DOAC Pt 2) | Ep 840

Wanna scale your business? Click here. Welcome to The Game w/ Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned and will learn on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth. Follow Alex Hormozi’s Socials: LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Hormozi?

  Welcome back to the game. This is part two of the guest spot on Diary of a CEO with Stephen Bartlett. This is a ton of fun, the second half. We talk about the entrepreneurial lifecycle. It has six stages. You will be stuck in it forever until you break free. I was stuck in it four years and I will say this, it does rear its nasty head multiple times. I have to fight it actively this, I mean, this year. I was talking about it last night. It's one of those pervasive things that I don't think you solve. It's something that you manage. On top of that, we talk about experimentation in the form of how you beat competitors and how to do that in a way that makes it harder for them to keep up with you. And so the last thing we talk about, we actually zoom all the way out and we talk about work-life balance,

• 0:41Alex Hormozi?

  happiness, fulfillment. And I think it's one of the more clear moments I've had on a podcast in a while. I've got a lot of feedback from people from the last 20 minutes of this particular podcast. And it's a three-hour-plus podcast. And so the fact that people got there and then that was the part they were talking about, I think, is good. But if you ever get criticized for how you work, how you approach life, you might enjoy it. So enjoy.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Well, I want to go through the four R's, but I also, I think that what comes before the four R's is knowing how to get customers in the first place, which was a tricky one. And actually, maybe even the thing that comes before that is being psychologically prepared for the the toll and the roller coaster that business is. I found this, I found this graph of yours.

• 1:30Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  And I think for any founder starting a business, it's important for them to understand this cycle. I think you call it like the crash-burn cycle or something. Because if you're not aware of this cycle, when you hit certain parts of it, you're probably going to think that there's something wrong with you.

• 1:46Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  But there's a certain inevitability to this crash cycle. I'll put it on the screen for anyone to see.

• 1:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, this is, this is the entrepreneur lifecycle until you learn how to break free from it. And so there are six stages. You have stage one, which is uninformed optimism. This is where you see your friend or you see something online and it looks like they're making money or it looks like there's some opportunity and you think, oh, my God, that sounds amazing. And you have optimism because it looks great, but it's uninformed because you have no idea what it entails. So then you dive in and you say, okay, I'm going to pursue this, this thing, whatever. Is it baking cupcakes or I'm going to, I'm going to do lawn mowing or I'm going to do crypto trading, whatever. Second step is you get into it and you're like, oh my God, I don't know, there's so many things involved in this and this is significantly more complicated than I, I expected.

• 2:35Alex Hormozi?

  So then you become an informed pessimist. You now know that it's hard or significantly harder than you expected. The third stage is you have your crisis of meaning or the valley of despair. So you're continuing to do this stuff. It's continuing to not work and you keep working and it keeps not working. And so this is the step and this is the, this is the point of truth. And this is the cycle where the, the paths of the entrepreneur split. And the vast majority of people take this next step, which is they then say, you know what? There's that thing over there that my other friend's doing, maybe I should do that instead. And so then they hop back to uninformed optimism and then they go boom to informed pessimism

• 3:17Alex Hormozi?

  and they just go around and around and around and they live the same six months for 20 straight years. Now, the other path of, from the valley of despair is sticking with it. And so then you become an informed optimist because now you understand, you still understood all the bad stuff, but you also understand the good stuff and how to avoid the bad and maximize the good. And then once you're there, you do, you stick on that path long enough and you end up achieving what you originally thought was really easy and fast. And so that cycle, this is more or less the, the Alex Ramosi life story, which is why I can so intimately describe each of the steps, is that I call that loop and that the

• 3:58Alex Hormozi?

  person on the other side, the woman in the red dress, which is probably my favorite part of the Matrix movie, which is Neo, who's the main character, is in a program to teach him one thing. And so he's walking through the crowded streets of what looks like a New York city with Morpheus leading him. And he's drawing on about something that he's supposed to learn and he says, Neo, were you listening to me or were you looking to the woman, looking at the woman in the red dress? And, and Neo was looking at the woman in the red dress as Morpheus is talking. And then he says, look again. And he looks back at the woman in the red dress and it's Agent Smith with a gun pointed at his head. And in that moment, he's like freeze and he explains that.

• 4:40Alex Hormozi?

  You're either one of us or one of them. And they are the people who are sent to destroy us. And so what appears to be the woman in the red dress is actually an agent from the system meant to destroy the opportunity that you're in right now. And so I love the woman in the red dress so much because it's so real. Because you're in this thing. You're in this relationship with your business. And you're like, you know, this girl seems great. And then you get to know her and you find out she snores when she sleeps. And all of a sudden, it's like, you know, you see the sweatpants and no makeup in the morning. And you realize that sometimes she's moody, whatever. But you get to, you start to get to know. You're like, I don't know if we're gonna get married. But like, you know, this is kind of where we're at. And then you see a woman in the red dress. And you're like, you know what?

• 5:25Alex Hormozi?

  I think that's the girl. And so you quit this relationship with your business and you get into that relationship. But then you realize that that girl has crabs. She has a crazy ex-boyfriend. And you're like, oh, my God, I didn't want to deal with any of this stuff. Right? And so my CFO, so was one of the first people that you're like, oh, my God, I hired that person, it changed everything. So my CFO and Jim Launch had taken four companies from zero to 100 million. She had done over 40 M and A transactions. Her largest one was 5 billion. Super experienced. She was the very end of her career. And she was like, I'll take you guys. I'll take this one last ride with you guys. And so, you know, mind you, Leila and I, I'm 26 or 27 at the time. Leila's 23, 24. And we're sitting across the table from a very experienced business person being like, please help us.

• 6:06Alex Hormozi?

  And so one of the things that she taught me that I'll never forget is she said, the grass is always greener on the other side. You just don't know that it's fertilized with shit. And she, and she's southern. So she had this deep southern accent. She's like, there's always shit. Shit everywhere. And so she's like, I've been in enough businesses to know that all businesses have shit. And so you just have the shit you don't know about and the shit you do know about. And you're in this business. And so this is the shit you know. And that has been so profoundly impactful in my life because it was so hard for me to break the cycle. Really hard for me. I mean, I gave you my, my life story of the many businesses that I've been involved in. And so like the entrepreneurial ADD has been so real for me. And I've made some of the biggest career mistakes

• 6:51Alex Hormozi?

  by just pursuing and splitting my attention between multiple endeavors. And I can say truthfully that this 2024 was the first year, and this is now 2025, the first time in my life where I haven't experienced FOMO. So fear of missing out. And it was one of those things that I just always had. I would see somebody doing it, and I was like, oh, man, I mean, I should be getting into that like that. I shouldn't be doing this. I'm just doing that. And it was, it was one of those things, kind of like being happy, where like you don't realize you're happy. You just look back and you're like, you know what? That was a really good year. You know, like you kind of like, you kind of see it in retrospect. What I realized was that now, when I hear someone say like, oh, my God, I crushed it with this thing. I think that's amazing for them. I'm sure there's tons of problems that I don't know about, and that's amazing. But I'm going to keep doing this thing because this is the only thing I know how to do pretty well.

• 7:36Alex Hormozi?

  And I'm just going to keep compounding my information advantage against everybody else who thinks this is easy and wants to get into it. And so I think that that, every, any, any massive company that you know of has existed for multiple decades. And in order for something to exist for multiple decades, the founder has to stay focused on that thing for the whole time. And I measure focus by the quantity and quality of things that you say no to. And I measure commitment, or I define commitment as the elimination of alternatives. And so if you think of marriage as the ultimate commitment, then it is the ultimate commitment because you've limited literally every alternative besides this person. And so I think that many business problems and many entrepreneurs would 5X, 10X their

• 8:18Alex Hormozi?

  business if they simply gave themselves no way out. This is what I'm doing. And I'm, I mean, the term, you know, burning the boats, but I'm eliminating all alternatives and structuring my life such that I, I make it very difficult to pursue the alternatives. And I think by doing that, you can actually conquer this, this cycle and make it pass the split where you go crash and burn and then restart the doom loop, or make it to informed optimism and then eventually to the achievement that you want.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  There's so much there. There's so much there, but it's such an important point.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  So where shall I start? So at that moment here, this crisis of meaning moment, what I see so much of is entrepreneurs, not necessarily quitting the old thing, but just taking on something else. And entrepreneurs will come up to me in the gym and they'll say, hey, Steve, just want to let you know what I do and see if you can offer me any advice. And then they'll list three things. They'll say, I'm starting this crypto thing with my friend Dave. I've got this hair business where we're selling on e-comm and I've got this other thing. And they almost assume that the more things they're doing, the higher the probability that they'll be successful in something.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  My mum was that. My mum has started thirty businesses and I watched for my whole childhood how she would start a hairdressing salon and then the person down the street running an estate agents would come in and say, we're making loads of monies in estate agents. She'd start that. That business would suck. She'd hit this moment of crisis of meaning. She'd then start a furniture business. And she, so she jumped between twenty to thirty businesses and it's kind of still happening now. Where they last six months, they eventually go bust. She sort of like, you know, like the monkeys that swing to the next branch? Swings to the next thing. And there's never been the escape velocity that comes from this informed optimism part. So yeah, this, it really rang true for me in every sense of the word. This idea of like a focus,

• 10:15Speaker 01

  going against all of your instincts and your emotions, but being pivotal to achievement.

• 10:21Alex Hormozi?

  I think entrepreneurship is far more a war of the heart than it is a war of the mind. Like, we can understand what we should do. We just don't do it. And I think that's why we're so much better at giving advice than we are at following it. So most people, if they just followed their own advice, they'd be successful. And so with this kind of valley of despair, I call it niche slapping. It's like, don't make me niche slap you, which is like, when you have three things going on, it's like, let me slap you into just picking one. Because the thing is, is that any of them can work, but none of them will work unless you pick only one. Because it's actually, in my opinion,

• 11:03Alex Hormozi?

  An exercise in arrogance to assume that you doing three things is somehow going to beat somebody who's doing one. And I can promise you, the competitor who is going to beat you is only doing that one thing. And you think a third of your time is going to beat theirs? No, it's not gonna happen. I think it's arrogant. And so, there's actually like an under, there's like an underpinning of ego underneath of this. And I say this to somebody who did this. So like, when I had the launch business, I also had my six gyms. I also had a chiropractor agency, and I also had a dental agency. And so, I would introduce myself like, oh, I own lots of companies. But I think one of the biggest misconceptions when you're an entrepreneur is not understanding the difference between being an owner and being the CEO. And so, they might hear that you have a portfolio, they might hear that I have a portfolio, and be like, okay, well, they have a portfolio,

• 11:46Alex Hormozi?

  so I must model that. That guy's tall, I should play basketball. Doesn't work that way, right? I should be, so if I want to be rich, I should fly private. Doesn't work that way. It's conflating order. And so, we must do these things in order to get the outcome. We have to concentrate on only one thing in order to get the outsized return. And that spreading of attention, especially when you're newer in the entrepreneurial career, it's like you already don't know so many things. How do you now want to have three sets of unknowns that you want to try and conquer at the same time? And the fallacy of thinking is that I'm gonna try all of them and see which one works, but none of them will work because you're waiting to see which one will work. Because you can

• 12:30Alex Hormozi?

  force, in my opinion, you can force one thing to work, provided, like, I'm gonna just assume basics, like, you're selling, you're not selling $5 bills for $4, like, you know, the normal economics of a business, like, if, if, if a real estate business exists, there are other people are making money. There are hair salon businesses where people are making money. There are lawn mowing businesses where people are making money. You can make money in all of them. You just can't make money in all of them.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, when you walked in today, and you sat down on the chair, I said, like, what's going on with you professionally? I remember what you said. You said, more of the same and better, which clearly comes from your wisdom.

• 13:03Alex Hormozi?

  My infinite wisdom, right?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Well, it's just from, from, from, from, from suffering, the, the woes of this, like...

• 13:14Alex Hormozi?

  The biggest entrepreneurial mistakes I've made in my career have all come from splitting my attention. Every one of them. Like, every single one of them. Like, I talked about how I had the e-commerce business that I bolted on to my licensing company. I should not have done that. As soon as I did that, my revenue started slowing down in its growth.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Why did you?

• 13:32Alex Hormozi?

  Because I was ADD. Like, I was like, oh, Mike, I don't want to leave money on the table. And I want to be so violent about this. You are always going to leave money on the table. That is the result of focus. But you're leaving a small amount of money on the table to pursue the much larger money that's on another table of just sticking with the thing that you're on right now. Because compounding, if I were to show a chart here, it's like, if you're at year three of your thing, and you want to think about moving to year zero of a new thing, you have to compare, maybe year zero of a new thing grows faster, but it has to grow faster than year three to four of the thing that you're on right now. And I think that's the, people will compare year zero to year zero, but not year four

• 14:17Alex Hormozi?

  to year zero. And the thing is, is you actually, we have a linear life. And so, that is, it's an unfair but true comparison of the opportunity cost. And every exceptionally successful entrepreneur that I know has just stuck with one thing for such an inordinate amount of time. And I think there's a quote by, I want to say Shane Parrish. He said, "Success is doing the obvious thing for an extraordinary period of time without believing that you're smarter than you are." And it's just like, we know what we need to do, and so, we don't need to make our lives more complex. Complexity will come with scale, I promise.

• 14:58Alex Hormozi?

  And so, just simply trying to do more of what you're already doing well is already hard enough. Don't add anything else. And so, like, if you need to write some sort of commitment of like, "I'm just going to stick with this," then do that. But the...

• 15:15Alex Hormozi?

  What happens is, we were talking about the levels earlier, about like beating the bosses. So what happens is, you know how to beat boss one through three of the game. And so then you just say, okay, well, I'm just gonna start the game over and beat boss. I mean, this time it's gonna be different. But then you just get to level three again, and then you're stuck again. And so people just keep getting up to level three in new endeavors over and over again, because they never learned how to get past that boss. And so you just have to confront the uncertainty of knowing that you don't know how to do it, but that you will figure it out if you keep doing enough repetitions. And that's where you talk to as many people as you can. You see what they said, you consolidate it all, and you say, I think this is the highest likely path.

• 16:00Alex Hormozi?

  It might not work, but I do believe fundamentally that if we cut people's hair well, and we do it for a long period of time, we will have a thriving business. And if we have a really good model from that thing, we might be able to open up another location. And if we keep our costs down, we might be able to have an actual model that we could either invest our own capital or bring somebody else and take it national. Or like, all of these, like, I have yet to find a business that can't get to $100 million a year, that has a permutation of it that exists. You're a dry cleaner, fine. Well, cool, we'll build the model, and either we're gonna license the model, we can franchise the model out, we can get outside investors, we can scale it nationally, we can do it. But the crazy goals are only crazy because people have crazy timelines. They're actually very sane goals if you extend the timeline out. If you have a true 10-year goal or a true 20-year goal, almost anything's accomplishable.

• 16:44Alex Hormozi?

  I mean, almost every multi-billion dollar company is about, you know, they get, it's usually between like year six and 10, when companies get to kind of like those big numbers. And most people who are listening to this are five years into entrepreneurship, but you're six months into the thing that you've been working on right now. And you keep restarting the clock for getting to year 10 every time you start over. And I think that's the part that it took me a very long time to figure out. And I think it takes a lot of entrepreneurs, like everyone messes around with a lot of stuff in the business, you just don't know what you're doing. And so in my experience, it takes about five years for most entrepreneurs that I know to just like find something that works. Like it takes about five years to figure out which way is north.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:27Alex Hormozi?

  And then it takes like another five years. A lot of people, that's it, like they restart, they go off crash and burn. And it takes another five years to build something that can create generational wealth. So it's about a 10 year slug. And here's the really hard truth about it. If you have a job right now, for almost all of that five years, you quit your job because you don't want to work as hard as you are and you want to make more money. And as soon as you quit, you will realize that you are now going to work way harder than you were, and you're going to make less money for an extended period of time. The one benefit is that you get to claim all responsibility for how little you make and how much you work. Because you're like, my boss is an idiot and it's me. But it's the truth.

• 18:10Alex Hormozi?

  And I think that in some ways, having that optimistic ignorance is actually one of the really redeeming traits of entrepreneurs. And one of the really hard parts is that the biggest jump you have to make gets so immediately reinforced from the freedom you have from being able to, you know, chart your own path. But that big success of quitting one thing and starting another, you need to immediately forget. And I think that fundamentally, that is why so many entrepreneurs keep doing it. It's because the first time you do it, it's the biggest rush ever. You quit your job, you do the business and you get some first traction.

• 18:54Alex Hormozi?

  And that first dollar that you make when the new business, it's like the best dollar ever. Right? But it's such a strong reinforcer that what does it reinforce? It reinforces stopping what you're doing and starting something else. And so I think one of the fundamental errors of entrepreneurship is that sometimes the jumping ship to start this thing is the lesson that you need to immediately unlearn. Because after that, you have to just stick with it for a very long period of time.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  There's also something in that entrepreneurs don't go into starting a company with the belief that their hypothesis is wrong. So in year one or seven months in, when they realize that their initial hypothesis was wrong, they think that means abandon ship because my hypothesis was wrong. Whereas successful entrepreneurs that I've met, especially second time founders, realize that their hypothesis is almost certainly wrong from the jump and that the process of starting is to correct and to find a new hypothesis. I think about like Mark Zuckerberg in his room with like face swap or whatever it was, rating people's attractiveness. And now matter is this like virtual reality AI company. But understanding that your hypothesis is wrong from the jump and that, you know, this is a process of finding a new hypothesis, I think will give you a little bit more patience as well

• 20:06Speaker 01

  through these cycles of the crisis of meaning and so on.

• 20:11Alex Hormozi?

  So two things. So one is I had this tweet that went like super viral, but it was like, first time founder, hey, I need you to sign an NDA before I tell you my business idea. I know you've gotten it. I know you have. Third time founder, here's everything I have. Here's all the documents. Here's all the projections. It's probably all wrong and this probably won't work. But I have a couple of smart people and I think we'll be able to figure it out. It'll probably cost longer and take longer, cost more and take longer than we think, but we think it's worth a shot. Because everyone who's been on both sides of that understand, like the entrepreneurs got it because they're like, oh my God, I was that guy. And all the investors get it because they're like,

• 20:52Alex Hormozi?

  oh my God, I deal with this guy all the time. But actually, what you just said with the many, many iterations that from your original idea until what actually happens is yet again, one of those demonstrations of the difference between a beginner and expert. A beginner has binary thinking. So they think this worked or it didn't work. And if it didn't work, then I need a new idea. Rather than having the nuanced thinking of a master or an expert or advanced person who says, what about this, if I click into it, I break it into its component parts, what about this didn't work? Okay, it's not that meta ads don't work or advertising doesn't work. It's that we didn't nail the hook in our ad or that we didn't make Our offer clear enough on the landing page, or it was not congruent with the advertisement.

• 21:36Alex Hormozi?

  Or, you know, it was, the offer itself wasn't very compelling, or it didn't have, it didn't like, it was just this, we, everyone's coming in and saying, "Yeah, I kinda want that, but this is actually my issue. We're not solving the core problem." So, it's, it's always in the, in the details. It's always in the sifting through the many small things that you find the kernel that ends up fixing the business. I mean, I know that Facebook was trying to fix their virality issue. And they were locked in a room for days trying to figure out how they could get more users to retain on the platform, right? People would sign up, but then they wouldn't do anything, and then they, they'd drop out. And so finally, Zuck just said, "Okay,

• 22:16Alex Hormozi?

  we have some belief that if people have more friends, that they will engage." And so, they didn't, and here's the thing, like with the uncertainty, they couldn't prove it. He just was like, "I feel like that's better than them not having friends." And so, he said, "All right, the new goal is 10 friends in 14 days. That's the goal. So, we have to create the experience so that we can get it, to introduce them to 10 people, or connect them with 10 people that they already know on the platform within 14 days." And as soon as that happened, then obviously, Facebook took off, or continued to grow. And so, he wasn't like, "Oh, Facebook doesn't work anymore, or social networks aren't gonna be a thing." It's, it's usually way smaller and way, the adjustment you need to make is much more nuanced than what you originally expect.

• 23:02Alex Hormozi?

  If the foundational principle of like, cutting hair, mowing lawns, whatever, it's like, "This problem exists, and I can charge a certain amount and make a profit on it, then there's nothing wrong with the business. It's just, what is the constraint that's holding us back?" And then usually zooming into the constraint and realizing there's 20 things that are contributing to the outcome, not one. And that's where expertise, and that, and you develop that expertise by trying and failing.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:25Alex Hormozi?

  And that's, and that's just the name of the game. And so, I think you have to have an incredibly high tolerance for failure without internalizing it and feeling like you yourself are a failure as a result of failure.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Well, this is it. When I started my first business at 18 years old called Woolpark, social network, whatever. I thought the game was to be right. I came to learn from businesses that came after that actually the game of entrepreneurship is to be successful and they're two very different things.

• 23:51Alex Hormozi?

  To win.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Because when you want to be right, you not only want to be CEO and you want your hypothesis that you put in that first pitch deck to come true. And even when customers are telling you that you were wrong, you try and force the fucking hypothesis.

• 24:03Alex Hormozi?

  You don't know.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. But when you, when your game is to be successful, there's a couple of really interesting things that I observe happen. One of them is you, I watch founders say, actually, maybe I'm not the best person to be CEO.

• 24:14Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Even though I founded this thing, maybe I should be chief brand officer. When I think about some of the top companies in the UK represent just valued at a hundred million, Jim Sharp, Ben's business valued at 1.5 billion, Julian's business probably valued at a billion. I'm involved in some of these businesses in different ways. But the thing they all have in common is that some early point, the founder put their ego secondary to the success of the business. They said, actually, I'm not the best CEO. I should be head of brand or marketing.

• 24:41Alex Hormozi?

  Or product, right.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Or product or whatever it is. And that's that mindset shift from being, I need to be right and I need to be a behemoth of being right versus this thing needs to be successful.

• 24:52Alex Hormozi?

  And this goes back to the who, which is if you, if you, at some point, if you want to have a really ridiculously successful company, it will require more lifetimes of expertise than you can live. And so then it's, it becomes a recruiting game, like very quickly, almost all business becomes recruiting, which is how do I, I mean, if you, if you listen to Zuck talk about it, you look and you listen to Elon talk about it, you listen to Steve Jobs talk about it. Steve would talk about how the best players that he had in the company, he would set aside like a year to 18 months to bring them in.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 25:25Alex Hormozi?

  And he said, every time I, you know, I, I knew who I wanted and then I would, he's like, you know, I would take some calls with other people and I would just be like, but they're not John.

• 25:37Alex Hormozi?

  They're not John. And so he would just keep working on them and working on them and working them. And so eventually they're like, you know what? Fine. They like give up. And they're like, if this guy is this persistent, like, he probably will be a successful entrepreneur. He will take us there. And I think that like, people are the highest leverage thing that you, that you can bring into the company. Outside of, you know, crazy technology.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  I am, one of my favorite videos of all time is where Steve Jobs, who you just mentioned, talks about hiring truly exceptional people. And he says words to the effect, I'll play it on screen. He says, um, people think the success of Apple is a consequence of me and my talent and my skills. But what I've actually done is I've built my career, quote, on hiring truly exceptional people, doing the extremely hard work of finding them and hiring them. And this crazy thing happens when you do that is it propagates. I, A players then want to work with A players. They also hire A players and it spreads. I think it was this video.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  I've built a lot of my success off finding these truly gifted people and not settling for B and C players, but really going for the A players. And I found something. I found that when you get enough A players together, when you go through the incredible work to find, you know, five of these A players, they really like working with each other because they, they've never had a chance to do that before. And they don't want to work with B and C players. And so it becomes self policing and they only want to hire more A players. And so you build up these pockets of A players and it propagates.

• 27:12Alex Hormozi?

  The thing is, is that it's just like money won't make you happy. It's one of those things that like every founder like has to figure out for themselves. But the thing is, is and I've had obviously a bunch of conversations around this, but like. What you think is an A player today is not what you will think an A player is in five years. And so I think one of the hardest mental hacks around this is trying to project yourself into the future into the size business that you want to have and say, who would be an A player at that size and scale? And then coming back to the present and saying, how do I get them to work for me today?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 27:50Alex Hormozi?

  And it's really, and so as a mental process for anybody who does have a business right now and has some employees, if you, like everybody right now, you probably have some version of your A player, because every business has at least one, hopefully, right? Besides you. Imagine your business had five of those people. Picture in your head, you've got that one person, now you have five of them. How much more would you make? Would you double? Would you 10x? Would you 50x? And sometimes you realize, you're like, no, I think I would actually 10x. And so if that were the case, one, not only would you 10x the company, number two, the value of the company would more than 10x because it would no longer be, it would be significantly less reliant on you and it'd be more reliant on the team that you've built.

• 28:34Alex Hormozi?

  Number three, it would happen faster because you would have more barrels that were firing concurrently, moving things forward. And those, those pieces, when put together, you have to then ask yourself from an opportunity cost perspective, what other activity could I be doing that would have the possibility of 10xing my company, doing it faster, and increasing the enterprise value multiple? That's not that. And if you can't find one, then it means you're working on the wrong stuff. And I think that is one of those great litmus tests of like, if I can find something, and I'll give you a really simple one that's not, not human, the talent-based here. Something as simple as calling your leads.

• 29:17Alex Hormozi?

  So there's tons of research that suggests that you can 4x, 5x your conversion of leads by calling them within 60 seconds of them opting in for any product you have.

• 29:28Alex Hormozi?

  If you have all of these priorities they have across the company, does any of them have the high likelihood of 4 or 5 X-ing your business immediately with very low cost of doing so, less so than just calling the leads within 60 seconds? If the answer is no, then by God, why are you not calling all your leads within 60 seconds? The FOB question would be like, "Well, I don't have enough people to call our leads within 60 seconds." So then we'd say, "Okay, what is 4X the revenue of your company worth? Okay, what does it cost to hire one person whose only job is to just call the leads?" Now, I recently talked to a restoration company.

• 30:10Alex Hormozi?

  So they did water damage for homes when they got hit by storms. And he told me, he said he was converting 55% of his leads, not calls, leads. And I was like, "How on earth are you doing this?" And I was like, "Well, how many leads a day do you get?" And he said, "Two or three." And I was like, "Okay, so what's the process?" He's like, "Oh, it's really simple. My aunt, I pay her $60,000 a year, and she has only one job. She has no responsibility in the company. Besides, the moment a lead comes in, you stop having sex with your husband, you stop, you stop cooking, you stop loving your child, and you immediately call the lead. That's the only responsibility. She just has to make three calls a day at the moment the leads come in. And he pays her $60,000, and that brings in millions of dollars of revenue.

• 30:52Alex Hormozi?

  And so, you're not going to pay for it out of the dollars you have now. You're going to pay for it out of the dollars that you're going to make that you're not making yet because you haven't done it yet. And so, pin in that. Back to the people. I think the hardest time, we call this the swamp at acquisition.com, but it's usually between like 1 and 3 million, is the swamp. And I think there's a numbers reason for why it's such a painful period for entrepreneurs.

• 31:22Alex Hormozi?

  Let's say 1 million for simple math. If you have a million dollar business, let's say that you have 20% margins. So that means you're making $200,000 in your profit. For you to get an A player, it's probably going to cost you 100% of your profit to get that A player. And so you'll have what appears to be an impossible choice. You'll have, do I sacrifice basically 100% of my profit to bring this person in? Or do I work another six hours a day to do the job that this person is doing? Both paths work. Both are painful and risky because the overworking yourself thing, you can get yourself through that hump. And then now you're at maybe three or four million and that 20% is 800.

• 32:04Alex Hormozi?

  You can spend 200, you still have cash flow, you can still live. The downside for the picking the person path is that what if you pick wrong? And this, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, is why entrepreneurs get outsized returns is because we take on outside risk. And so this is the job, is that we have to be willing to make impossible choices. And the vast majority of choices for entrepreneurs in the business are impossible choices between two relatively bad scenarios. Because the rest of the choices don't even feel like choices because they're obvious. Of course, we should correlate faster. Of course, we should follow up more. Of course, we should try and onboard faster. Okay, all of these things are the obvious ones.

• 32:44Alex Hormozi?

  But when you have, and I'm trying to think of the ones I'm not sure. Almost all the decisions that you get stuck with, and Elon says this really beautifully, he says, running a business is like staring out to the abyss and chewing glass. Because the staring out to the abyss component of it is just the fact that this may never work. And you're almost facing existential risk at all times to the business. And the eating glass component is that You will, by nature of your role, get funneled the worst problems in the business and the problems that no one else can solve. So it's, one, problems that people can't solve. Two, the worst ones. Or that they don't want to solve and they suck. Yeah.

• 33:29Alex Hormozi?

  And so you basically become a filter for the worst things. And that's why it feels like a fire every single day in the business. Because you're the only one who can make the tough call. Because no one else wants to choose between these two impossible choices. And you're like, why is it so hard? And the thing is, is that it literally never stops being hard. It's that the currency that you pay for and the hardness changes. And so, you know, a lot of people have this envision of like the Rocky cutscene of like, it must be hard for business. But I don't, I don't think that's where the hardship comes. I think the hardship is that at every level of business, there's new sacrifices that you didn't know you were going to have to make. Because if it was just, oh, I have to work long hours. There's tons of people who work long hours in their business and don't, don't grow. And it's usually because they're unwilling to have a hard conversation. It's a different currency, right?

• 34:14Alex Hormozi?

  They have to take on risk. It's a different currency. They have to, um, they have to, they have to make some sort of bet, right? That they otherwise wouldn't have had to make. They have some sort of legal issue that they encounter. They have an employee who tries to sue them for some sort of mal whatever, right? All of a sudden, you're like, wait, all of these things are happening. And they happen on a regular basis. And at each level, you unlock new levels of glass that you get to chew through. And so this is why, like, most entrepreneurs, in my opinion, don't actually quit. They fizzle. So it's not a big bang. Usually it's, they just, they stop seeking. So either they get content at the level that they're at and they just don't strive for more. And sometimes they say, it just wasn't worth the trade. And I respect that. If you're like, you know what?

• 34:59Alex Hormozi?

  I'm at a million dollars a year and I don't want anymore. Fine, you won. Congratulations, like you won at life. But most of the times, they don't really quit. They just stop trying. And then they just either coast and, or it just fizzles into, into nothingness. And that's just my experience of having, and I'm sure you've seen this, having gone through like cycles of entrepreneurs, like seasons. It's like, oh yeah, I came in through, even like in the media and influencer space, whatever. It's like, there's a bunch of guys that 10 years ago, it's a different landscape now than it was 10 years ago. Some people adapted. Some of them were like, I don't like the, they, they just, they just, they weren't willing to chew the new glass, which is how do I learn TikTok? How do I learn? But man, blogs were so good. It's like, yeah, and they're not anymore. I talked to an entrepreneur, really massive sales, many hundreds of millions a year in sales.

• 35:43Alex Hormozi?

  And he was like, dude, we were killing it on infomercials, so TV. And he's like, we just, you know, we, uh, we just, we really just have to crack YouTube. And I'm thinking to myself like, dude, it's 2024. Like, what, like, you needed to crack YouTube 10 years ago and he had the resources to do it. But it was just a different kind of hard. And so most of the hard is, one, a level of uncertainty that, that goes into it. And almost certain immediate failure, because the first thing you're going to do will probably not work. And again, it's the iterations of when you get into the new domain, you have to transfer your generalized knowledge, which is that as an entrepreneur, I will know that this doesn't work, probably,

• 36:26Alex Hormozi?

  because I only know four things about it and I need to know like 400. And so I will get my first shot and I need to get directionally correct. And then just keep doing more of that. And so I gave the consulting way of learning kind of like a new space. But if you want to learn a new skill, the fastest way that I do it, that's outside of courses or anything, is tremendous volume of activity. So whether that's like, I want to take a lot of sales calls, I want to do a lot of outreach, I want to make a lot of content, I want to do a lot of customer success calls, whatever it is, you do 100 of those. And then you see, what are the top 10% of these? Okay, what did these top 10% have different than the other 90? And then I say, okay, well, these ones had these three things that were different. Let's try and do those three things on the next 100.

• 37:09Alex Hormozi?

  And then because of the variety of life, there's going to be some new variables that exist that you look at the top 10% of the next 100. And you're like, okay, we did those three, but there's also two more things that happen in this 10 versus the other 90. Now let's do all five of those things. And over time, this is how you develop a checklist for making banger content and banger videos. And I'm sure, like, there's this clip, David Perel talks about Chris Rock's creative process. And he says, how is it that you see Chris Rock at Madison Square Gardens? And it's just like 60 minutes of just fire. You're like, how is this guy so funny? And it's because what you don't see is the many small clubs. And the first club that he goes to and does a whole hour long set and has like three moments that people laugh a lot about.

• 37:54Alex Hormozi?

  And he's got like five minutes that are good. And the other 55 minutes basically suck. And so the next time he goes to a club, he takes those five minutes, puts them at the front. And then he tries all new material for the next 55 minutes. And he gets another five minutes. And he continues to repeat this process and put the new stuff at the front until eventually he has 60 minutes of uninterrupted laughing. And then people are like, oh, my God, he's so talented. I can't believe that he can just stand up there and talk into a microphone and make everyone laugh. Cross age boundaries, cross cultural boundaries, cross, you know, all of the boundaries that you might imagine. How can he be so funny to everyone? That's how. How can that guy be so good at writing? Well, he looked at the stuff that he wrote. He found the best stuff, made it into the few things that he always does, and then kept writing. And that fundamentally is the process of learning anything.

• 38:39Alex Hormozi?

  And it's usually not one thing. It's many small things that when added together in aggregate, create the outsized returns. Sorry, that was a little poppy there. I just get violent about skill acquisition. It's like, that's what it takes.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Interesting, but so interesting to see your journey through that and how, and how you, you, you ended up at skill acquisition because I was, as you went through, there was three things that I was thinking about and I managed to write them down. The first at the top of it was you detailed three reasons why hiring the exceptional person, when you're faced with that paradox of what do I do with my profits? It makes so much sense. One of the big things I hear from founders that they don't appreciate is to go for a long period of time, you have to have some kind of emotional regulation.

• 39:21Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  And as you were talking about the, the different levels of business and every level you have more problems, what I often see is a young founder hasn't hired those levels in between to deal with all those different types of problems. And they are like burning out and thinking of quitting. I had someone in my office last week and she's on route to build about a $50, $50 million business this year. And the first question I said to her was, what's your executive team? And she just like rolls her eyes and she's like, I don't have an executive team. She'd done a post on social media, basically in tears, saying that she was gonna quit. She's got a thirty to fifty million dollar business. It's growing like wildfire, but she's about to almost quit it because she's dealing with every single problem.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And often founders say to me, they think because they're experiencing so much hardship in that like one to three million phase, that forever it's going to be just huge pain. And I talk to them about this thing I call the promised land.

• 40:15Alex Hormozi?

  Do I love this?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Cause in the first two, three years of my business, I thought that forever I'm gonna have to deal with every fucking problem. Jenny in the office is pissed off at Dave and on Saturday night, when they were drunk, they did something which they shouldn't have had. And I realized the problem was I hadn't solved for hiring these levels. So everything was coming to me and the emotional toll on my nervous system of dealing with every problem was not sustainable. And then I accidentally hired someone good.

• 40:38Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Kate, who I mentioned.

• 40:40Alex Hormozi?

  And then she dealt with all that.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, she dealt with all this. And then I could think again as a founder.

• 40:44Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  So I wanted to just give a moment to that and your thoughts on that.

• 40:49Alex Hormozi?

  I wanna do my best shot at operationalizing what you just said for somebody who's listening.

• 40:55Alex Hormozi?

  When we encounter this issue, we have a specific process that we go through. And so we tell the founder, I want you to make a Google sheet, really simple. And I want you to have the time slots from five AM to midnight, however long you work in fifteen minute increments. And I want you to set a timer, easy timer, kitchen timer, like for cooking for every fifteen minutes. And every fifteen minutes, I want you to, when it dings, I want you to write down what you did. One or two words, doesn't take a lot. Now, as soon as I say that, people are like, oh my God, I don't have time for this. I will promise you, it will be the most productive week of your life because you will be aware of how you're spending your time. Every time I do this, I immediately think, I should do this all the time and I don't. So just do it. Just do it for the one week. Okay? And so what happens is you'll do it for a whole week.

• 41:40Alex Hormozi?

  And then what the second step of this is you'll look at that and you'll say, okay, wow, I didn't know that forty percent of my time is dealing with this thing. And I can hire a role to handle forty percent of my time for this amount of money. If I had 40% of my time back, I could double this business. And that would be worth significantly more than what I'd pay this person. And then you look at the next 15% of your time, and you're like, okay, is this something that I can give to somebody else? Like, can I push this down? Can I create some process around this that can correct it? Or do I need to keep eating it for a little bit until it's enough that it's a full-time role? And so fundamentally, I see the entrepreneur as the many-hatted fractionalist, that you continue to pull things under your plate

• 42:24Alex Hormozi?

  until you have enough that you can ship it out to somebody else full-time. And being aware of, again, the one resource that we have, which is time, how we're allocating it so we get the highest return. And so if you look at the stack of time as an entrepreneur, we are always getting paid for our time. Kind of the premise of the whole talk here, is that we trade our time for dollars. And so we always, the whole process of entrepreneurship is continuing to trade up what you're trading your time for. And that's like, at the most foundational level, that is all we're doing. And so to take this as a hypothetical, your business doesn't need you. Right now, you spend whatever hours you do working, and you do these things. Imagine a world where you could hire somebody

• 43:09Alex Hormozi?

  who could spend the same amount of time doing all of that stuff. Now you own the business. And whatever you have to pay them, you take out of the profit, and everything else is now distributions that you own as an owner. That's it. Now, the entrepreneur who's mission-driven then stacks their plate with even more things that they need to do, and then just continues that process over and over again. Now, this is the part where the pushback comes, which is, no one can do what I can do. And I want to say, you're right, and. If I wanted to, let's say you're a unicorn. So we can imagine this mythical unicorn. Got this white horse, got the horn, tail, everything. And the little pixie flies for the magic that's around it, okay. You probably won't find a unicorn. But you can find a white horse.

• 43:54Alex Hormozi?

  And you can find a rhinoceros to get the horn. And you can find some fireflies to give you the twinkles. And so you may not hire one person who has all of these things, but you can hire three. And then those three together can potentially do everything that you're doing better, because it's all they're doing with all of their time. And breaking it up into basically understanding that you're not going to find that unicorn, but you just break it into pieces and then you can partition it out to people who can just do those parts, makes it a lot more manageable from an emotional level to think like, I'm never gonna find this. Of course you're not. And that's okay, because we can find, we can solve for parts of our calendar.

• 44:34Alex Hormozi?

  And fundamentally, when you buy back the time, you can then do what you're like, basically take the next step in the business.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  The other really interesting thing, as you were talking about your friend who was doing blogs and missed YouTube,

• 44:46Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  was the idea that our success traps, being an old innovator's dilemma,

• 44:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  that success traps us in the past. So your friend probably missed YouTube because he didn't want to reallocate headcount to something that was working and paying the bills. And this, I guess, ties into your point about failure being so unbelievably important, because what me and you both do right now is gonna get old.

• 45:07Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And we probably both watched the people that came before us fade into a relative.

• 45:13Alex Hormozi?

  Look at these dinosaurs.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. And we're part of some kind of new school of content creation, but we're gonna become part of the old school.

• 45:19Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  If we don't.

• 45:20Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  What's it, what's in that gap?

• 45:24Alex Hormozi?

  Adapt. And I think that it's a port, so you know, Google has their, their, you know, I think Sergey like solved this mathematically, but they, I think they called it 70, 20, 10. So 70% of resources get allocated to the core business, do more of what we're currently doing. 20% goes to adjacent businesses. So things that are high likelihood success that are, you know, one step removed from the existing core business. And then 10% goes to moonshots, totally like off the path, like, let's just see, maybe we'll get 100 extra turn, we probably will lose on most of these. And he proved it with math, he's smarter than I am. But fundamentally, that is the concept of more, better, new. And so that's one of the chapters in, in, in the Leeds book, which is, okay, now that you have the core four, right, these are the four things that you can do.

• 46:08Alex Hormozi?

  You can post content, you can run ads, you can do outreach to strangers, you can do outreach to people you know. Those are the four things any person can do to advertise. The first thing you do is you do more. And for most small businesses, they're doing so little and think they're doing so much. And it's a huge gap in understanding. And so I'll tell this story that's probably the easiest way to explain it, which is when I had my first gym, I called up a mentor. He had 20 locations. I said, how do you advertise? He said, I use flyers. I said, okay. So I put 300 flyers out. It didn't work. I called him back. I was upset. I said, WTF? He said, slow down. What was your test size? And I said, what do you mean? He's like, well, your test size.

• 46:53Alex Hormozi?

  So like, I mean, the 300 was the only amount that he put out. And I was like, well, yeah. He's like, well, our test size is 5,000 flyers. And then once we have a winner, then we do 5,000 every day in terms of flyers that they put on cars to get people in.

• 47:11Alex Hormozi?

  And so over a 30 day period, he would be putting out 150,000 flyers. And over a 30 day period, I put out 300. And so he was in a very real way, doing whatever the math is there, but like 300 times or whatever. I don't know, a lot more, 500 times the math, sorry, 500 times the flyers that I was. And of course, he was getting a better result. And so one of the fundamental misconceptions of small businesses is that they mistake, they mistake low volume for volatility. Meaning if you, if you're not sure where your sales come from and you get one sale here, and then, you know, two weeks later, you get another sale and it feels sporadic. It feels volatile. Well, there is a certain amount of advertising activity that is occurring over that period of time.

• 47:55Alex Hormozi?

  And we know that a month passes and you get one to two sales. And so the companies that are in your space that are doing one to two sales a day, take what you're doing in a month and they do that every day. And I know that you can get this and I want to put this in context here. I hear, I would like to build a personal brand and I say, cool. And then I ask, how much country are you putting out? And they say, you know, I put out, you know, one or two pieces a week. And I think that's amazing. For context, for anyone who's listening to this, we put out 450 pieces a week. And so the brand that we have is way larger because we do so much more than you do. And that's it's people can't fathom the idea that someone works two times, five times,

• 48:39Alex Hormozi?

  10 times, a thousand times more output than they are doing. But it is usually the reality of why they are getting a thousand times more than you're getting. And fundamentally, this is the concept of leverage, which is, you know, the you get more for what you put in. In the beginning, you're the one doing the flyers. Then you get leverage because then you make enough from those flyers that you can look at your time study and be like, okay, I can pay two guys to do these flyers and I can get eight hours back. That would be amazing. But now you've got two guys doing flyers, which is still double of what you were doing. Now you have double the revenue that's coming in. You're like, okay, should I hire more guys? That's more. Or should I do something better? Should I change my flyer up? Should I change the offer on the flyer? That would be better. Or should I start Facebook ads? Well, the new, which would be Facebook ads, is the 10% thing.

• 49:22Alex Hormozi?

  Now, when you're looking at allocation of resources, let's say we're now fast forwarding a little bit into a company that has, you know, profit that they can do stuff with. Part of the reinvestment is insurance for the future. And so every business has three strategic buckets that it has to allocate its resources into. Number one is how do we get more customers? Like, if we get more customers, the company grows, period. Number two, how do we increase lifetime gross profit per customer? So if we got the same amount of customers, but we made all the customers worth more, we would also grow. Bucket three is how do we decrease risk? AKA, how do we increase the likelihood that the first two things don't stop happening? And so those are the three buckets. And so when we're, when you look at that 70, 20, 10. Hey guys, real quick, this podcast only grows from word of mouth, quite literally.

• 50:07Alex Hormozi?

  There's no other way to grow a podcast than word of mouth. If there's some element of this that you think somebody else should hear or would be relevant to them, it would mean the world to me if you shared this via text, via Instagram, via DM, via whatever way you like to share stuff with the people you love. Thank you.

• 50:21Alex Hormozi?

  The 70 for the most part is usually going to be directed towards get more customers, make them worth more, and the better also ladders up to that. The risk factor is usually going to be the new thing that you're going to do to ensure your future is going to be there by the time you get there. And so if you notice, if we noticed, for example, that like YouTube becomes like legacy television and viewership starts dropping and it becomes this new VR, whatever, right? At some point, we're going to have to look and be like, we need to take 10%, 20% of our profit every year and start building out this new team. We're going to continue to do what we're currently doing. And here's the mistake that you need to avoid. Don't take the stars that are making the one thing work and then push them on the other thing. You have to find the people who can build this.

• 51:04Alex Hormozi?

  Otherwise, you're going to sacrifice the core because all of a sudden it's like, oh God, well, now we're totally screwed because now we're not getting customers from our existing thing and we haven't figured out the new thing yet.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:14Alex Hormozi?

  And so this is fundamentally where I see the CEO role. It's like you want to eventually become the flex player, which is that you can parachute in to a specific division or department that's solving a complex issue. And then you have the benefit that you have as CEO or founder is that you have decision making power and you have the ability to allocate resources and immediately say yes to things. And that's why, and to be fair, it's unfair to your team to say, why can't they do things as fast as me? Well, because you can write the checks and because you can say yes. You don't need to check with a committee. You don't need to run it up the flagpole. It's just you saying, do this, do that, don't worry about that. I'm telling you, you can stay late for this meeting. This is more important. And so strategy is just a fancy word that people say when they mean prioritization. That's all it means. We have, we have unlimited opportunities that we can allocate things towards, but we have limited resources.

• 51:59Alex Hormozi?

  And so how do we prioritize those unlimited opportunities against those limited resources? That is fundamentally what strategy is. And that's another way of just saying, we prioritize.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  On the, on the car example you're talking about with the flyers.

• 52:09Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  What I was thinking is so many businesses try and win on the game of creativity. So we'll create something more creative and appealing as an advert. And I see this in my portfolio because they'll send me something and they'll go, Steve. One particular business I'm thinking about, a major national supermarket has given us a display slot in 400 supermarkets. Which display should we use? And they'll say to me, this one or this one?

• 52:34Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  And I remember replying to them and saying, I don't know.

• 52:37Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  And you don't know.

• 52:38Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  But here's a system to find out. We're going to create 100 displays and we're going to run them as ads on Facebook or we're going to create some kind of environment where we're not going to try and win on being the best creative guesses. We're going to win on our rate of experimentation.

• 52:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  We're going to conduct more experiments.

• 52:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  And I think this is a real shift in so many regards because especially if we've gone through university and we've been trained as a copywriter.

• 53:00Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  We have the old problem of wanting to be right, not successful.

• 53:03Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  And being able to, as a creative, even as a podcaster, say, I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm going to create a system where our rate of experimentation is going to be so much higher than our competitors that we're going to stumble across the right answer, more than they do, is a shift in thinking.

• 53:18Alex Hormozi?

  So there are two types of questions that you shouldn't ask. Questions that can be solved with a spreadsheet and questions that can be solved with testing. And so fundamentally, the outside advice that you get on something that can be solved with math, just solve with math. And I would say like 30% of the questions that I get are like, should I sell this one or this one? And I'm like, okay, well, what's lifetime value of this product and what's lifetime value of that product? Okay. What's cost to acquire for this customer? What's cost to acquire for that customer? Okay, this is a math problem. You have a way higher LTV to CAC ratio here, allocate resources here, but that's a math problem. Anyone can just do that math. For the testing one, I love this, because like the leads book, I didn't know what to name it. So it's about advertising.

• 53:59Alex Hormozi?

  So I ran story tests for like a week or two, just saying, $100 million promotions, $100 million advertising, and then advertising wins. It's like $100 million advertising, $100 million marketing. Okay. And then advertising wins. I'm like, okay, $100 million advertising, $100 million leads. Leads wins. $100 million leads versus two other things, leads keeps winning. Okay. That's the title. And then I did the same thing for the cover. I did the same thing for the sub-headline. And so I tested every component of it to get the thing that people seem to want, which is like, the book is advertising, but ironically, people want leads. So it's kind of like, do I want to have a book on drills or do I want to have a book on holes? Right? People want the hole in the wall, not the drill. That's just the vehicle. And so the book is just a vehicle to getting leads.

• 54:41Alex Hormozi?

  But as a quick hack for anybody who has a brick and mortar business, this is just a quick hack for anybody. If you're like, what market should I expand into? Here's five markets we're looking at. Take $1,000. Run your best promotion that you win in your current market in all five of those markets. See what your lead cost is in all five markets. The one that has the lowest lead cost, then open in that market. Don't spend $250,000, you know, doing all these studies and then, and then building out this location only to find out that the lead cost in that area sucks. Just test it first. It's the best $5,000 or $10,000 that you're ever going to spend to just ensure this is a risk. This is a risk bucket. Ensure that when you're there, it's going to work.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I mean amen. It's our whole philosophy. So it's so wonderful to hear that. And I didn't realize that you'd done that with the book.

• 55:30Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah, I have it in the chapter where I'm like, you have to wrap everything. And I show all the tests that I ran. And like, you can see all the percentages of people saying this is the, that's the book title.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And people look at you, Alex, they, you're a guy that knows a lot about a lot. And one of the questions that I often get as well is, I need a mentor. People, kids will come up to you and say, I'm sure they say it to you all the time. Will you be my mentor?

• 55:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Do mentors matter?

• 55:56Alex Hormozi?

  So I'll explain what I'm thinking through. So to answer that question, I think it asks, what is, what is required to win? And is a mentor required? No. But there are certain behaviors and actions that will increase the likelihood of success. If you can do those actions faster, then you will have a higher likelihood of winning and higher of a higher likelihood of winning faster. All of humanity has been built on us standing on our forefathers' shoulders and taking what they learned. We don't have to figure out how light bulbs work. I have no idea how the internet works, but I know that it works. And there's somebody who can figure it out.

• 56:41Alex Hormozi?

  And so we just start where they kind of lay off the baton and then we pick it up from there and we, and we run the next tower of many, and then we die and we hit the next guy. And I think you don't need mentors, but you need to learn from people ahead of you. And so I think in models, not mentors, what can I model about their behavior so that it can change my behavior to increase the likelihood that I win faster? And so everything that I do, and I feel like it's a pretty strong statement, everything that I do ladders up or down to behavior. And so you've probably noticed it when I talk about training and employees, when I talk about advertising, I just want to increase the likelihood that a stranger takes a desired action. That's all I'm trying to do.

• 57:25Alex Hormozi?

  And when we get into behavior change, it removes a lot of the surface level fluff that I think confuses the vast majority of people. And so I'm always afraid to go on podcasts where somebody is really heavy in manifestation and like energy and frequencies and like whatever the hell. And they'll say things like, "I manifested this meeting." And I'll be like, "You didn't. You have content that did well because you produce content on a regular basis, and then your EA reached out to my EA? That reach out is what initiated this, not whatever vibes you were setting out into the universe." Now, some people might say, "Yeah, it was also the vibes." But I would bet that if they made the content and did the reach out, I would still do it,

• 58:09Alex Hormozi?

  which means that those are the core things, because if we've removed those, if we just did the manifestation and didn't make the content and the reach out, I would not be here. And so one of these works, one of these doesn't. And so that is what has allowed me to try and extract the essence from the mentors or heroes ahead of me. I consume a tremendous amount of Elon, Bezos, Zuck, anything that I can find that they put out or that they're interviewed on, I try and consume it. And the whole goal is I want to think about their decision-making process as it relates to what they did. And try and apply that to my context in terms of behavior. And so that has been just like the big, the big, big, big zoom out for do I need a mentor?

• 58:54Alex Hormozi?

  No, but you need to learn stuff. And so whatever way is the fastest way for you to learn things, do that. And so I'll tell this story because I think it's like, do you need one? No, no one needs one. You could, you can literally just do all of these things through trial and error on your own, and you will figure it out. Time is obviously the one thing that is the, the big question mark. And I think part of it is a question of how valuable is your time to you? Not in a micro example, but would I pay in time or money to move forward five years and not make five years of mistakes? So when I started my first gym, I didn't actually start the gym because I quit my job and I drove across the country. And I showed up at a guy's house that I Googled on the internet, who said he was good at running gyms. His name was Seven Figure Sam. All right, and so he was a gym guru. And so I showed up at his actual gym unannounced.

• 59:39Alex Hormozi?

  And I was like, hey, I'm here to be mentored and learn. And he was like, uh, I'm working. I really don't know who you are. And uh, like, maybe we'll talk tomorrow or something. And I was like, okay. And he's like, where are you staying? And I said, I don't know. I haven't decided yet. And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, that's my car. I just drove here and all my stuff's in there. And he's like, you have nowhere to live? I was like, figured I'd just figured out when I got here. And so he offered me to stay at his, at his house that night, which is unbelievably generous and maybe my salesmanship got him. You know, who knows? But within a few weeks, he had a meetup of all the gyms that were kind of like following his little system for how he ran his personal training studio and, and bootcamp.

• 1:00:19Alex Hormozi?

  And I got to go as a 22 year old and I paid to have access to this community of gym owners. And they were all going around talking about what was going good and what was going wrong in the business. And when it got to me, I was like, well, okay. So I want to open a location and this is kind of what I was thinking about my model and this is what I was thinking about price points. And they were like, wrong, wrong. Here's why that's not going to work. Here's that's not going to work. And I was like, oh, uh, okay. Well, this is where I was going to buy equipment. They're like, don't buy there. That's retail. You can get it from secondhand over here and it's literally a 10th of the price. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. Okay, great. I was like, well, I was thinking about getting This type of thing, they're like, no, girls will eat shit on that and they'll fall. Like, I've had two girls do it. Don't worry about it. Like, you're not gonna use it. But you can get sandbags. You can use them all the time and they're super cheap. And if you have to replace them, you can, but you can use them for like hundreds of exercises.

• 1:01:04Alex Hormozi?

  And I was like, great, I'll do that. And then I was like, okay, so I was thinking about this kind of square footage for my, for my facility. They're like, dude, you don't need all that. You can cut that in half. And I was like, okay, well, cut that in half. And I was like, I'm willing to pay two bucks a foot? And they were like, no, never go over 150. And I was like, okay, never go over 150. And so like, in a matter of a day, I got to take like, all of the knowledge of all of these guys, of the mistakes that they'd all made with their gyms. And I started my first gym just on their backs.

• 1:01:33Alex Hormozi?

  And so, how much was that worth to me? Years. And so, for me, I have always been willing to pay in whatever currency was required to get knowledge that I don't know.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Can you get that now for free?

• 1:01:48Alex Hormozi?

  Yes. It didn't exist then. YouTube wasn't even a thing. Instagram had just come out, like, for context, for everybody who's listening to this. I think about this equation a lot, and I actually had some video of somebody shitting on me for this, but I'm gonna say it anyways because there's the 20% that are gonna say it. That's right, I'm not gonna dilute myself. So, I saw a salesman say this at a, at a conference. And he wrote a million dollars on a whiteboard. And he called up a lady in the, in the audience and he said, how much do you make? And she said, $50,000 a year. So he wrote $50,000 underneath a million, and he subtracted it. And it said $950,000. He said, it costs you $950,000 every single year. You don't know how to make a million dollars a year. And so the question is, what is the value of that skill? And the answer is the difference.

• 1:02:33Alex Hormozi?

  And so, the troll who, who, who responded to this originally was like, well, you can keep going. What about $100 million a year or a billion dollars a year? And I was like, yes. Yes, if you had the skill of making a billion dollars a year, then the difference between 50,000 and a billion is the delta of the value of that skill. And it's really not one skill. It's many skills that ladder up to when combined together to create that kind of value. But I remember that being like seared into my memory, which is like whatever I want to have, the delta between where I'm at and where that thing is, is what basically what I'm willing to sacrifice in order to learn what I need to learn to get there.

• 1:03:13Alex Hormozi?

  And I think that if people appraised that delta, not by the money in their wallet or the time that they currently have, but how much they would be making or how much time they would have and how much that's worth to them, then I think far more people would be willing to invest in their education. And it's such a taboo word because people hate the word education. It's like, oh, it's like work, but like, you want to be an entrepreneur, like you got to learn. There's so much stuff to learn.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Parrots versus practitioners. This is an idea that I've thought about a lot of the years because I look at someone like you and I can tell based on everything you say today that you are a practitioner. In this analogy, what I call a parrot is someone who hears what Alex said and then starts saying it. But your lessons and wisdom have come from going through that shit and being able to distill the essence like Richard Fryman and then share it. There is a group of people that just spend their whole life reading books, posting about it, etc. They never take the jump. Parrots versus practitioners is the best way to learn being a practitioner?

• 1:04:15Alex Hormozi?

  This is widely known in the education space, but not as much in the content world. But there are two types of education. There is procedural and there is declarative. So declarative knowledge is knowing about something. Procedural knowledge is knowing how to do something. So a simple example would be, okay, I understand how private equity works, right? Like you could talk about it, you can explain how, okay, they take some debt and then they have this arbitrage and they get this enterprise value multiple, whatever. But you've never done a deal. And until you've done a deal, you will not have procedural knowledge of knowing how to actually do a deal. And so you can read 100 books on sales, but you will learn more about actually selling from your first 100 sales calls.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  And business is the same.

• 1:04:55Alex Hormozi?

  Yes. And so the idea, in my opinion, for most people is that if you want to rapidly learn, you want to rapidly do those 100 repetitions as fast as you can so that you can suck 100 times in a row and find the 10 that sucked the least and then say, how do I suck least on the next 100? And you keep doing that so many times until eventually you suck so little that you're actually good.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Hard work.

• 1:05:17Alex Hormozi?

  Yes, and I think, you know, this is actually really interesting because it ladders up to because there's two types of creators. You've got entertainers and then you have educators. At least that's how I separate it. The point of entertainment is to maintain the attention of the audience. That is it. So the point of an entertainer is to literally just keep people watching. The point of an educator is to change someone's behavior. And so if you, if you want content to do well in either of these buckets, fundamentally, at least in the education space, you're selling time. So education is I spent all this time doing this thing to learn these four things that I can give to you so that you don't have to spend this time learning it. And so education is actually, if said differently, what you

• 1:06:02Alex Hormozi?

  do is you buy time. So when you buy, it's the only thing, it's the only way to actually buy time today. So if you want to basically time warp into your future, you have to buy education so that you can buy all of the life experiences from all these people and then not pay for it in your life. You pay for it with less time by consuming what they have, or some money, or some combination of those things. And fundamentally, we usually pay with the currency that we value least. And so, interestingly, a rich person values their time more than their money, and so they're willing to pay with money to get time back. A poor person will also pay for their time and drive around to 10 different gas stations to find the one thing that's 10 cents cheaper, or drive to 10 different

• 1:06:43Alex Hormozi?

  grocery stores to use whatever coupons. They're valuing their time over their money in that instance. And so, back to the educator, if you want to be certain or have confidence in any endeavor, you have to do so much volume of activity that it would be unreasonable that you would suck. And if you were to write out the equation of like, okay, how many public speeches would I need to give for it to be unreasonable that I would suck? Is it 10? Is it 100? Is it 1,000? Write the number that you're like, there's no way that I would suck after this many. And then all of your effort gets really narrowed, commitment, elimination of alternatives, focus, turn down quality and quantity of other things, to just doing that.

• 1:07:25Alex Hormozi?

  And then, and the key part of this is not just to do the thousand, but after every 10 or every 20, looking at the top 10 or 20%, and saying, what did I do well there? And that, because you have to have the feedback loop. Otherwise, it's not just doing 100 reach outs. You have to do 100 reach outs and then look at what worked, and then do more of what worked. And so, for the parrot versus the practitioner component of this, even if you're starting out, you can have confidence in what you're doing because you derived the solution. And you can actually answer why you do something. So, if you cannot explain why you believe what you believe, it's not your belief, it's someone else's. And so, most people, I would say, parrot the vast majority of the things that they

• 1:08:09Alex Hormozi?

  say, because, and to be fair, that's how humans learn. You're five years old, you say, what's that? They say, bull, and you say, bull, you parrot it back, and there we go, right? But when it comes to skills, you can describe what other people have said before, but if something goes wrong, or what about this condition? You won't know what to do. But if you derived it from the ground up, and there's a, there's a great portion of this in the Y Combinator community that you, or the Silicon Valley community that you probably heard of, maybe like, three or four months ago, it was like Founder Mode, did that get to the UK?

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was from Brian Chesky, I actually messaged him about it after.

• 1:08:41Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah, it was like, it was, it was awesome, right? And so, basically, the tenet is that the founder always has special powers in the company, because you know what built it. And so, that is basically, at its core, the practitioner versus parrot. The people who came later are parroting why you do what you do. But you know what conditions you were in when you made this rule, and also, you know how to break it, and when to bend those rules. And so, if you build something, when you built it from those repetitions, to distill out the few truths that exist, you'll know why those are the truths. Like, I'll give you a really simple example. So, if we, you know, we've tried to learn YouTube, and we've gotten better over time. But in the beginning, I did this massive review, and I figured out that the videos that We had that had three things at the beginning.

• 1:09:25Alex Hormozi?

  Proof, promise, plan was the videos that did the best. And so then all of a sudden, we said, okay, all videos have to have proof, promise, plan right at the beginning, the first 30 seconds. Great. So we started doing that for a while. And then we looked at the outliers among those and we're like, oh, well, we also, and some of the ones I did really well, also had some sort of visual picture of this plan. All right. So it became proof, promise, plan, picture. Then we kept looking and we found out over more repetitions that if we also include some sort of pain or problem that's being solved, that also helps. So proof, promise, plan, picture, pain. And so you're like, wait, if you keep adding to this thing, it's going to get really long. No, sometimes you can check multiple boxes with one thing. And this becomes the elegance of creation. Like, how can I, how can I check off three of these boxes with one sentence? Right?

• 1:10:10Alex Hormozi?

  And so that is, by the way, if you're like thinking about this, you're like, do they really think about this when they're making videos? Yes. And that is the difference between a 10,000 view video and a million view video. And it's, it's understanding that level of nuance across the entire thing that creates expertise. And also, when you're like, oh, this video flopped when you're beginning, you're like, these videos in general don't work or content doesn't work, rather than saying, this video didn't work and here's why, because we did three of the five. And so it's just like all of the, I mean, the devil is in the details and you only, you meet the devil himself by doing the unreasonable amount of work. And then it becomes, it goes from uninformed, lack of knowledge to informed optimism. Because first, you're like, I can make videos and get rich. Then you realize that it's really hard to make videos that people watch.

• 1:10:55Alex Hormozi?

  And then finally, you start to develop a framework of this is how I make videos that people watch. And when they don't watch it, it's because I didn't follow it.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  It's so timely because it weaves into something you said earlier, because my girlfriend came to the recording yesterday. And as I went into the green room and I sat down, she went, babe, look, I found this new app. And I said, what is it? She goes, it's an app that summarizes books. And she, it's called like head something. And she showed me it and I go, look at my book.

• 1:11:18Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Cause I know the laws, I know the chapters, I know all of the principles that lead up to the point. So show me my book. And law two of my book's called 33 laws. So it's these 33 laws.

• 1:11:27Alex Hormozi?

  I got it, yeah.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  And law two is about the Richard Fryman technique you talked about. And I explain why that process of learning something, simplifying it to assess its essence for a 10 year old, teaching it to someone else. If they understand it, move on. If they don't, go back to the top and learn again. And it summarized law two of my book to. Like, writing is the best way to learn.

• 1:11:47Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  And I said, babe, if you, I said, if you just read that summary, the top of the pyramid,

• 1:11:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  and you don't have the story and all these agreeable foundations, which I then explained to her, would you be able to then translate that and truly understand the nature of the problem so that you could apply it to lots of different settings and so on? And then I told her what that second law of my book actually meant, and she deleted the app.

• 1:12:07Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Because there's no point knowing the conclusion.

• 1:12:10Alex Hormozi?

  The aphorism.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the punchline.

• 1:12:13Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  When you don't know the story. And without the story, you can't, I guess, get to the first principles of the thing.

• 1:12:19Alex Hormozi?

  So this is really interesting because with that Feynman example, it proves that the distillation of knowledge is not bidirectional. So you, Richard Feynman, can break it down to a child, but a child cannot then re-derive what Feynman has done.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Interesting, yeah.

• 1:12:35Alex Hormozi?

  And so it's convenient for the transmission of communication and for teaching someone who's, let's say, coming new to an organization. Here's the, here are the things, and these give you the decision-making frameworks around which, and it can give you directional guidance. But that is the whole founder mode, that is basically a different way of getting to the founder mode idea. That person derived this thing.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57Alex Hormozi?

  And so when a problem arises, we can re-derive the next solution, rather than trying to apply the aphorism to a new setting.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  And another point for founders who are getting their work copied.

• 1:13:08Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Because this, everything you've just said actually should give a founder who's having their work copied, their T-shirt designs, their content copied, huge amount of peace. Because if I need to know steps one, two, three, four, five, up the staircase to success to be able to predict step six.

• 1:13:24Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Then if someone's just copying your step five, you should be at total peace because they don't know.

• 1:13:29Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  The foundations that would lead to the next step. And that's what we see as podcasts, is podcasts is copy you, they'll copy your thumbnail, your title, your whatever.

• 1:13:36Alex Hormozi?

  Dude, I mean, I'm sure you see it everywhere.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the piece that, the piece that I have is, honestly, I say to the team all the time, if that's the thing that makes us special, we're fucked anyway.

• 1:13:45Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Like, if it's the thumbnail, or the this, or the how we do this, if it's the trailer that made us special, we're fucked anyway.

• 1:13:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  But also, there's a set of principles, we call it the iceberg, the 99% of what we do, you can't see.

• 1:13:58Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  It's the, it's the culture, as you said.

• 1:14:01Alex Hormozi?

  It's like, I have so much on this. So one is, right when I sat down, you were telling me about the episode that we ran that was like akin to a Shark Tank, but new version that we had on our channel. And you saw me like, kind of like groan and be like, It was 56 minutes on video, but it was so much work to produce that one thing. But no one sees all the work behind it. That's the 99%. So that's thing one. The, the next thing is, think about the, if you're a founder who's plagued with competition and being upset about it. I was one too, and I want to tell you how I got over it. So number one is think about the alternative, which is that no one copies you because no one cares about what you're doing. Well, then it would be a requisite for success that people copy you. So as long as you are successful, this is just a part of business.

• 1:14:46Alex Hormozi?

  The, the second piece is by definition, if someone copies you, they are second. Period. And so if you want to lead, you can't look at anyone else. You have to consistently be deriving the next step, the step six that's unseen from your first five steps to innovate. Rather than I'm just going to parrot the next thing. And as soon as you find yourself copying, you have admitted defeat. You've admitted that you were no longer the leader and that you were just following in someone else's footsteps. And you're giving them the baton and saying, you be the champion. I'm happy with second, third, fifth place. And in a winner take all world like attention is, all the fruits go to the first place anyways.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Amen. Amen. I have nothing more to add. Two last, the last thing I want to talk to you about is, it's really like a three part thing. It's hard work, love and happiness.

• 1:15:37Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  And I put them together intentionally. One could say work, life balance.

• 1:15:41Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Love, happiness. I think these things are kind of fundamentally intertwined. But how do you think about it? You're someone that's known as being very obsessive, very into your work, to say the least. You have a wonderful partner who seems to be aligned.

• 1:15:55Alex Hormozi?

  I know. Oh, super.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 1:15:57Alex Hormozi?

  She's hardcore.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  So let's go through it. Work, life balance slash hard work, love and happiness.

• 1:16:03Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  We start with work, life balance. It was that shit question.

• 1:16:08Alex Hormozi?

  Beliefs on it?

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Alex Hormozi?

  So I will answer with how I derived my kind of life thesis, which was after we, so when we went to, so we had taken about $40 million in distributions from Jim Launch personally throughout the years that we ran the company. And then in the year of the sale, for those of you who've never sold a company before, you typically don't want to change a lot of things. You kind of want the company to just be like, be stable, keep working, everything's fine. And so it's one of the most harrowing experiences to go through because you can't really change anything. And if you're the founder, you're always trying to innovate. So you can't do what you're normally doing. And you also can't start the next, so you can't change current and you can't start new. Because if the deal doesn't go through, then you don't want to start two businesses.

• 1:16:55Alex Hormozi?

  Remember, because we're, you know, cardinal rule number one, we're not chasing women in the red dress. And so you basically have to sit idly by and just like let things operate. And so in that year, it was one of the most miserable years of my life because I basically had nothing to do. And when I looked back on my life, this sounds like, you know, I looked back on my life as though it's been so long. I looked at the days that I enjoyed the most. And on those days, I had worked out and I had produced something. And I had done both of those with people I liked. And almost all of those days, I'd worked many, many hours.

• 1:17:35Alex Hormozi?

  And when I realized that the idea of working hard so that I can, insert blank, the so that actually makes it still destination driven. So that was when I derived what I called hard work is the goal. It's just to work hard. That is my goal.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  And then die?

• 1:17:59Alex Hormozi?

  Mm hmm. On things worth doing. And I, those are the days that I love. And I get a tremendous amount of pushback for saying this. And it bothers a lot of people. And to them, I say, live your life whatever way you want. This is, again, my, my life is not a sermon. It's a documentary. This is just how I do it. You can do whatever you want. And for the people who are dissatisfied, try it. And if not, no worries. I really enjoy working. Like, the best days are, like, when I write those books, it's the happiest I am. And it's not happy in the moment because it's really hard. But the amount of challenge is about proportional to my level of skill. And every book, I think, is better than the last.

• 1:18:44Alex Hormozi?

  And the third book that's coming out is gonna be fucking awesome. I'm very excited about it. But there's nothing that I enjoy more. But in the moment, I'm like, how do I break this down? And I'm just rubbing my forehead and I'm like, and then I, and I create two, three different frameworks. I'm like, nope, that's, that doesn't work here. And that doesn't work here, which means some kid in Afghanistan is gonna get stuck on this step because it doesn't work. I have to figure out how to get it so that it works everywhere. And I keep driving, but the moment it's like, it clicks. I'm like, that's it. Fight me. Like, that's the framework. That is what I, what I strive for. And for me, the love, the happiness and work have all, because of the nature of my life, been one. Now, some people have lived their lives where their love life and their happiness and their work are all separate.

• 1:19:29Alex Hormozi?

  For me, it has just been life. And I like it that way. And for the people who are upset by that, I'm not upset about how you live your life. I just choose to live it this way. And if in the future, I change my mind, I'll change my life. If I get to a point where I'm like, this is no longer a priority for me, something else is, then I will. But when I look at the centenarians and I look at the people who, like, I look at Warren Buffett as somebody, and Charlie Munger as two of my heroes. Charlie worked until the day he died. And to be clear, I don't work on a seven day calendar. I don't work a certain hour. I work as much as I can until I feel like my rate of output drops precipitously because of fatigue. And then I, and I sleep. And then if I feel like on a, on a longer time horizon of like, I've worked nine days.

• 1:20:14Alex Hormozi?

  I've worked 20 days. I've worked 30 days in a row. And I'm like, all right, I feel like I don't have any gas today. Then I'll take the whole day off. And whether that's a Tuesday or a Sunday or a Saturday, I take the day off. And that just is what it is. And I've just, I have learned to work that way and I am okay with it.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  The goal clearly for you then is the hard work itself and not a certain place you're trying to get to necessarily.

• 1:20:34Alex Hormozi?

  Cause that always moves.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Alex Hormozi?

  And so Jesse Itzler has this, and maybe, maybe I'll, I'll be able to steal it from him someday. But he told, I saw him show a picture of his kid finishing a race and putting a zero up. And what that signified was nothing left in the tank. That he'd spent everything he had on the field. And I would, and it's like, I have this visual of the 300 movie where the queen says to the king, as he goes off to battle, she says, come back with your shield or on it. And I kind of see like my work that way. Like, I can't imagine a better way to go out than like doing the thing I love. And it bothers a lot of people that I love something different than they love.

• 1:21:17Alex Hormozi?

  And it's like, it really, it really bothers, it bothers me that it bothers them, to be honest. Because I, I make no projections. Like do whatever you want. And I feel like if, if I ever had a, like one thing that, that people took from me, it was like absolute freedom. And because of that absolute freedom, we are 100% responsible for our own lives. And so where we place the, the finger of blame is also where power flows. So if you blame your parents for your life, your parents have power over your life. If you blame your boss for your bad life, your boss has power over your life. If you blame you for your bad life, at least you can change you and you can do something about it. And so I think absolute responsibility has been my, my core tenet.

• 1:22:00Alex Hormozi?

  And if you have a life where you're like, I don't want to care about work that much. And I just want to spend all my time with my family. I'm like, congratulations, you fucking won. That's amazing.

• 1:22:10Alex Hormozi?

  Just don't assume that everyone's you. And that what winning for me is the same as winning for you. And it, and I think the times that I talk about this, I know that my message won't resonate with everyone, and that's okay. But it's for the few people who were like me and felt like everyone told them there was something wrong with them. And I still get people to tell me there's something wrong with me. And if wrong means not normal, then yeah, you bet. But it's more so that like you are different and that's okay. And I think that if you're, if you're okay with that, then it unleashes this whole new realm of possibility of being able to do what you want. And kind of like I had the, you know, you do a hundred of these

• 1:22:54Alex Hormozi?

  and you look at the top 10%, do a hundred of these, look at the top 10%. That was my way of trying to operationalize happiness. Because it was this ephemeral thing that when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, I struggled a ton with, I was very depressed. I looked at, you know, religion, I looked at a lot of different things. And this is common for people at that age. And I came up with a mantra for me at that time, which was fuck happiness. Now, people then hear this, and I'm sure this will get taken out of context. But that was basically like this release moment for me, where by continually chasing happiness, it always existed outside of me. And so it was always this carrot that was in front of me that I could never really get to.

• 1:23:37Alex Hormozi?

  And so by saying fuck happiness, I was like, it's unattainable. I'm just gonna work. And I'm just gonna do the stuff I want to do. And when I started doing the stuff that I wanted to do, I looked up years later and I was like, I actually kind of like my life. And I was like, is this what happiness is? And I was like, I don't know. But I think one of the major plights of humanity, myself included, is the expectation that life should be different than it is. And so we, we, we create this idea that whatever we have right now is not what it should be. And I think should is the, is the root of all pain.

• 1:24:16Alex Hormozi?

  Is that all the things that we think should happen but aren't is our, is basically the measurement of our pain. And so I've tried to eradicate should from my life, should for other people. She should do this, they should do that. And just, just lean into is. It just is this way. I work, period. Not I should work more, I should work less, I should work differently, or I should see my mom more, I should call my dad more. I do this. And if something changes, I will change. And so unconditional shoulds. Now, if there is a condition of like, if you want to make more money, then this is a higher likelihood. You might want to consider doing this. Those are things that I don't consider in that category. But just the generalized shoulds of he shouldn't do that. He should, he should build a family.

• 1:25:01Alex Hormozi?

  He should have kids. He should have gotten married earlier. He should have gotten later. He should have married someone different. He shouldn't have the, the life that he has. He shouldn't work this way. According to what? And so for me, that is my, my theory on life, on, on happiness, work and love has been very unified. Because I love my work so much that I got out of a relationship. And when I, you know, started dating Leila, I said, I am not willing to change this. And so you have to be willing to deal with me working this way, or this won't work. Because my relationship with my work is the most satisfying relationship I have.

• 1:25:44Alex Hormozi?

  Now, people will hear that and be like, well, that's because he's never experienced true love, or whatever, whatever, whatever narrative they'll, they'll say. But it's like, you haven't lived my life and I haven't lived yours, and I don't project anything onto you. But I like, I like, I love what I do. And I like, I get attacked for liking what I do so much. And I like working a lot. And, and it's because they have negative associations with the word. And that's, that's their own history of, of their experience with the word. But I see my goals and my relationship with my goals as one of the most sacred things that I have, because I see them as a relationship with myself. And so those proxy, when someone comes in and says, hey, you know, sweetie, you've been working too much. According to what? Why should I stop? Right?

• 1:26:30Alex Hormozi?

  Now let's do this other thing. And people will probably see this as a, they'll put whatever labels they want on it. But like, I just said, this is what I would like to do with my life. And if you can incorporate yourself into that, that would be amazing. And so my second date with Leila, after we talked about business for four hours on our first date, was I said, I'm going to be working all day. It'd be cool if you worked with me. And she just worked next to me. She had her own thing, but she just worked beside me. And I was like, this is nice. And over time, eventually was like, hey, maybe you want to work on my thing with me? And she was like, yeah, that sounds good. It was a little bit more than that, but like fundamentally, I got her to switch to working on it with me. And at that point, what we got to talk about was what we were creating together. And to me, that's been, you know, the journey of my life. And it's been, it's been amazing.

• 1:27:14Alex Hormozi?

  And I'm not saying it works for everyone. I'm saying it probably doesn't work for most people, but it has worked really well for me. And it would make sense for me that my path would be different than most people's because I don't behave like most people. And so I would have to have a different formula for how I derive, you know, meaning or joy from my own life. And since I don't believe in inherent meaning, just the meaning that we choose to ascribe to things, then it's up to me to create that meaning within the work that I do. And so the reason acquisition.com was all based on, and it was during that year where I just basically had nothing to do, where I was like, what do I want to do with my life? Because I don't need to work anymore. And that was, you know, we'd taken 40 out before the sale, and then we obviously got the sale. So like, I don't need to work. I like to work.

• 1:27:58Alex Hormozi?

  And I try to spend, I look at, you know, I had this boss that told me this and was one of the, one of the catalysts for, for looking at life this way. She said, I had just had like a good weekend or something and I came in like chipper. And she said, well, you must have had a good weekend. And I was like, yeah, it was, it was good. And she said, this was like an offhand comment. And she said, I'm pretty sure the key to happiness is living as many days in a row like that as you can. And it was actually like really operational like I could I was like I can use this like what are the good days? How do I live as many of those days in a row as I can? And so I've, you know, I've been attacked for like saying that I don't really enjoy going on vacation very much. And it's because like, I just want to get, I just want to get back to doing the thing that I really enjoy doing.

• 1:28:40Alex Hormozi?

  And I remember we, Leila and I went to Mexico this year for a week. And it's always during the week of Christmas because no one works and it drives me nuts. And I've just like, I've just given up trying to get, you know, work. Because even if my team will work, because my team will, because they they're crazy too. Other teams won't and vendors won't and so anyway. And so while we were there, all I came out with was like, this is for other people and not me. Comma, and that's okay.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Earlier on, when we were talking about.

• 1:29:07Alex Hormozi?

  Sorry, that was a long rant.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  No, it was beautiful because it, so a couple of takeaways from it. But earlier on, we were talking about being a great content creator is a byproduct of having the courage to be yourself. And from that, everything you just said.

• 1:29:20Alex Hormozi?

  My soliloquy.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I also gleaned something similar, which is being happy requires the same thing, which is the courage to be yourself. And in both in the previously analogy, you said, everybody is unique.

• 1:29:33Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  And that is their value as it relates to showing up in marketing or with whatever product they have. But also, when I think about Alex's story, your story, and all you went through with your father and the early experiences and that consultancy firm, the gym, the fur place you worked. Logically, from first principles, the thing that's going to make you happy, because you are completely unique, is going to be completely different from everybody else.

• 1:29:58Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Like, to varying degrees, depending on how you sort of defining your early experiences are. But I actually think we talked about the courage of being yourself. There's also the courage of being happy. And with the courage of being happy, you have to withstand public pressure. The shoulds, you said, from your parents, whatever, from social media, especially as you become a bigger creator, to actually just listen to how you feel every day.

• 1:30:22Alex Hormozi?

  Can I, can I throw something out that I think might like, so this blew my mind. So I was in around that same period of time, I, because I talked to everybody I could to try and get context on this. And so I called a friend of mine up, or not friend, I would say acquaintance that I got connected with, who'd sold his company for hundreds of millions of dollars. Really bright guy. And one of the questions I asked him, I said, so how do you, how do you drive meaning from your life? And he said, an answer that really, really shook me, which doesn't happen that much, given my worldview. He said, "Why do you think that life needs to be meaningful?"

• 1:31:00Alex Hormozi?

  And it was just this really interesting question, which is basically that I had an unspoken demand of the universe. Life should be meaningful. I should be happy. And so it's the shoulds that we don't even know that we think and say that are the ones that China's the most hardcore. And so my favorite quote of all time, which is probably at the front of a few of the books that I have, and will probably be the one that'll be on my tombstone, is a permutation of an Orson Scott Card quote, which is, "We question all of our beliefs, except for those that we truly believe and those we never think to question." And so I would say that a lot of my entrepreneurial or even just human journey has been, what are the beliefs that I so, so inherently believe that I don't even see them? I don't even think about the should.

• 1:31:43Alex Hormozi?

  And so when he said that to me, I was like, whoa. I have had this inherent demand of the universe that my life be meaningful. And now people would hear this and be like, they have their shoulds and they're gonna say, "Well, it should be meaningful." And I'm like, "Why? According to what?" And if we look at history, history pretty much sweeps everyone under the bed, like within 100 years. And within 1,000 years, basically everyone, and the people that we remember, we remember some of their works. And we go 100,000 years in the future, or 10,000 years in the future, probably unlikely that we will be remembered in general. And that is solving for the idea that we need to be remembered. Again, we have to. Why?

• 1:32:23Alex Hormozi?

  And so my solving has been for degrees of freedom and responsibility. So what are the things that I can control? And I will do the very best of my ability to try and do the things within my control to ideally make other people's lives better and my own in the process. Now, that is a choice rather than I demand that of the universe. And this gets really abstract and heady really fast. And so I will try and bring us back down to earth. But by demanding that life be meaningful, by demanding that I be happy...

• 1:32:59Alex Hormozi?

  When I understood that I was demanding these things and pursuing them, that they were outside of me by saying, I need to do this, that I created inherent space that I could never gap or I could never close. And so by trying to forget or eliminate the demand is where it was the first time that I experienced those things. And so I try to keep them out of my head to the greatest degree possible so that I can be inside of them. That sounds weird. Rather than in pursuit. And so that, and so the times where I derive the most joy from my life, if I'm, if I'm optimizing for that, which is, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am optimizing for joy. I think Williamson was like, you definitely optimize for purpose

• 1:33:44Alex Hormozi?

  or meaning or something like that. And I kind of reject a lot of it, mostly because I do what I have been rewarded for doing in the past. And so because I have a behaviorist view of the world, which is that everything boils down to behaviors. Why do I do these things? I do these things because when I have done them in the past, I have enjoyed the result. And so I continue to do things that I've enjoyed the result of. And if other people have done things that they enjoy the result of, then I encourage you to keep doing them. And I also encourage you to not project that other people need to also do those things and that they will experience the same result as you because they might not.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  Alex, thank you.

• 1:34:20Alex Hormozi?

  Oh.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  That was such a beautiful way to end. And I've, it's so interesting because if, if people attack you for that, I just wanted to give my own perspective is when I hear you say these things about not, not enjoying holidays and things about your relationship with Leila and how, how that happens. For me, I feel, even if I don't agree with a hundred percent, I probably get to 95% to be honest with you. The fact that you're telling me that you're different makes my difference, whatever it might be, feel.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Acceptable. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:34:56Alex Hormozi?

  I 100% know what you're saying.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Because when I heard you say these things and I go, "Oh my God, Alex feels like he's different from the normal two." We might not be, me and Alex aren't the same, but we both feel inherently like we're not playing by the rules and therefore in some way getting life wrong based on this like public narrative of the way we should live our lives. I thought, amazing. I remember watching the video where you talked about not liking going on holidays and being like absolutely obsessed and me thinking, oh my God, I'm so fucking glad he said that. Because deep in my heart somewhere, I felt a guilt.

• 1:35:29Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. Oh.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  You know, a guilt and I'm like, where did the guilt come from?

• 1:35:32Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  I'm doing something that I love every single day, but I feel guilty. Well, I feel guilty because of other people's shoulds, right? So please, Alex, despite the, despite any critics that might be out there, please continue to have the courage to be yourself. Because you have no idea how it's making a group of weirdos that feel like they don't fit in feel heard and understood for their variance.

• 1:35:54Alex Hormozi?

  Well, that is my, yeah, I mean, it's, I make it for them.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast, as you know, where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving him for.

• 1:36:05Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, God.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  I'm laughing because it's so ironic.

• 1:36:07Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  What is the meaning of life?

• 1:36:15Alex Hormozi?

  Well, the short answer is obviously 42.

• 1:36:22Alex Hormozi?

  I actually do think it's learning. Because if we think about what learning is, it's that you're exposed to new conditions that over time change your behavior. And so you are different now than you were 10 years ago because you've learned more things. And so if we think about the meaning of life as what is the output of life? So I actually do really like this. So people talk, I can relate this to business, of course. I can relate what's the meaning of life to business. But what is the meaning of a business? The purpose of the business is, is whatever the output of that business is.

• 1:37:05Alex Hormozi?

  That's the meaning. It's what the output of that business is. And so if the mission, like with Elon, is like to get to Mars, then the output of the mission is that people get to Mars. And so that's the meaning of that business. And so the meaning of life in general for me, I think for all humans, is that the output of experience is learning. And so we will learn regardless, whether we want to or not, we learn. Learning happens whether you want, whether you like it or not, you will learn. And I think that that's where I would just leave it. And the question is, are you learning the things that you want?

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Amen. I highly recommend people go and check out the new format you launched on your YouTube channel. It's titled Building a $1 Million Business for a Stranger in 56 Minutes. It's kind of like a new take on Shark Tank, but it's more actionable, more practical. It's what you referenced earlier, and I know it took you many, many, many, many hours to perfect it, but it's a really interesting format that I think YouTube is seeking because it's so actionable and practical. And I highly recommend, I'll link that below, but I would also highly recommend people go and check out these books. I mean, they've been, to say they've been smash hits is a massive understatement.

• 1:38:17Alex Hormozi?

  Thank you.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I just see it everywhere. I feel like it's a prerequisite of any entrepreneur's toolkit when they're starting and they're trying to figure out frameworks for scaling a business, making sales, generating leads. And I know there's another one on the way, which you won't tell me about, but I know it's coming this year, which is volume three of this, this format. And I'm exceptionally excited to see it. And for any entrepreneurs out there that are looking to get in business with you, I highly recommend they go check out acquisition.com. Because there's so much there, regardless of where you are in the cycle, whether you're starting out, whether you're scaling up, whether you're looking for advice, acquisition.com is the place to be. Thank you, Alex, for your generosity. I appreciate it. And thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being weird and different. Because like that's, again, that's the value. That's all the value in the world. We don't need more of the same. We need people that have the courage to be themselves

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  and the courage to be happy. And that's exactly who you are. And I really, really appreciate it.

• 1:39:08Alex Hormozi?

  Thank you so much.