#381 I Had Dinner With Michael Ovitz

What I learned from having an intense and fun 3 hour dinner with Michael Ovitz. 1: Mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. 2: There's no ceiling on where you can push your profession. 3: Don't be unequally yoked. Pick partners that have the same ambition as you. 4: Read biographies. Know everything about the history of your industry. 5. Have a profound sense of belief. The world is very malleable. 6: There’s opportunity hiding in plain sight. 7: By endurance we conquer. 8: Work 10% less. Optimize for the long term. 9. Surround yourself with people who will tell you the truth. 10: Retirement is lame. ---- Ramp gives you everything you need to control spend, watch your costs, and optimize your financial operations —all on a single platform. Make history's greatest entrepreneurs proud by going to Ramp and learning how they can help your business control your costs and save more. ---- Founders Notes gives you the ability to tap into the collective knowledge of history's greatest entrepreneurs on demand. Use it to supplement the decisions you make in your work. Get access to Founders Notes here. ---- Join my free email newsletter to get my top 10 highlights from every book ---- Founders Notes gives you the ability to tap into the collective knowledge of history's greatest entrepreneurs on demand. Use it to supplement the decisions you make in your work. Get access to Founders Notes here. ---- “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Senra?

  Something that Michael Ovitz had in common with people like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos is the belief that you must find and work with extraordinary people. Even when Ovitz was a young man, he starts his company, he has no money. He makes a list of people that he eventually wanted to work with, and it was the best of the best. And even though at the time it felt like a pipe dream, he actually makes that list into a reality. And the importance of working with the very best people, there's actually a great observation about this from Steve Jobs. And he says that the key observation was that I noticed that that dynamic range between what an average person could accomplish and what the best person could accomplish was 50 to one or 100 to one. So given that, you're well advised to build a team that pursues the A-plus players. That's exactly what Steve Jobs did.

• 0:43David Senra?

  That's exactly what Michael Ovitz did, and it is exactly what Ramp did. Ramp has the most talented technical team in their industry. Becoming an engineer at Ramp is nearly impossible. In the last 12 months, they hired only 0.23% of the people that applied. So that means when your business is using Ramp, you now have access to top-tier technical talent and some of the best AI engineers on the planet, working on your behalf 24/7 to automate and improve all of your business's financial operations. Ramp invests heavily in creating new innovative products. In fact, I just sat down with the founder and a friend of mine, who's one of the co-founders and the CEO of Ramp named Eric, and he told me that 54% of their payroll is now dedicated to R and D.

• 1:28David Senra?

  So the longer they use Ramp, the more efficient your company becomes. That's very important because as Sam Walton astutely pointed out in his autobiography, he wrote, "You can make a lot of different mistakes and still recover if you run an efficient operation, or you can be brilliant and go out of business if you're too inefficient." Ramp helps you run an efficient organization. Ovitz knows that Ramp built a team of A-plus players because Ovitz invested in Ramp. So from a customer's perspective, what does a team of A-plus players sounds like? It sounds like this customer review that I read, which said, "Ramp is like having a teammate who you never need to check in on because they have it handled." So take the time, set up a demo of the product, and you'll see why many of the world's top founders are running their company on Ramp. You can do that by going to ramp.com.

• 2:12David Senra?

  Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business today. That is ramp.com. Okay, so last week, I flew to New York to have dinner with Michael Ovitz. We wound up having a very intense and entertaining three-hour conversation. And I'd made a list of things I learned from the dinner, so I'm just gonna run through some of these ideas. I guess I should back up and tell you how I actually got connected to Ovitz. We wind up, I didn't even know this, but we wind up having a very close mutual friend. I'm having breakfast with my friend Rick, and his phone is on the table, and it rings, and it says, "Michael Ovitz." I was like, "Oh, wow." And so he picks it up, and he's like, "Hey, I'm actually here with my friend David Senra. He does this podcast you might have heard of. It's called Founders." And there's a short break, and then Ovitz says, "I listened to four of them yesterday."

• 2:56David Senra?

  And so we wind up getting connected, and I, we were planning on having a meeting and having dinner anyways, and I was like, "Yeah, as you might know, I do these like, I had dinner episodes. I've done one with Charlie Munger, and Sam Zell, and Brad Jacobs, and John Mackey. I think it'd be really interesting, would you be up to doing it?" And he said, "Yes." So I flew up to see him. Conversation was really intense. It flew by. Like I said, it was three hours. I was shocked when I got up from the table, and I thought, you know, maybe we talked for an hour. So, right after dinner, I don't record any of this, and I don't take notes while we're having a conversation. So I just write down some of the things that really stood out to me, and then I try to expound on them. So I have a, just a list of about 10 ideas I want to go over with you from this dinner.

• 3:40David Senra?

  And the number, the first one, it's very obvious if you read his autobiography, which I'm also doing an episode on, and I think I'll just release it at the same time. And if you spend any time with him, or hear him speak in any capacity, there's this great line that I kind of use as like a guide to make sure that I'm on the right path, and it says, "Mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it." And this is very obvious if you look at his career, but he's still like this to this day. And what I would say is like, Ovitz does nothing in a casual manner. And I don't either. I don't think any of the founders that you and I study or we read biographies about do either. And like, one of my favorite examples of this, and he was like this when he was like a young kid. He starts working in the mailroom at William Morris.

• 4:24David Senra?

  And the extra length, I think there was like, I think in the book, he says, there was something like 20 other trainees. You know, he was one of 20. And out of those 20 people, there's only one that did what he did. And he noticed that, hey, there's this filing cabinet room. He says, the length of a basketball court. And it's lined with steel cabinets. And he calls it the hard drives of the era. You know, there's no computers back then, no internet, anything like that. And what he realizes, like this, these filing cabinets that are the length of a basketball court, they actually hold 70 years of history on Hollywood. And he says, I viewed those files as an encyclopedia of entertainment. While other trainees wanted to be told what to do and read and learn each morning at seven

• 5:07David Senra?

  and every evening after work, for 10 weeks, I made my way through every single file from A to Z. How many other trainees did that? Zero. He does this over and over again. There's a bunch of different examples. But one of my favorite stories from the book too, was he's trying to sign this very important director. And who, the director at the time was being repped by this aging and really apathetic agent. And so what Ovitz does, keep in mind, mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. Maybe the director thought, hey, I've been with this agent for a while. Seems to be going well. Seems to be fine. And then you have somebody with passion that's showing up and exposing how mediocre your alternative is. And he winds up working on this director for two hours a day for two years before the director signs with them.

• 5:52David Senra?

  And one of the smartest things that, that Ovitz did, he's like, I made sure to get him every single script, the best scripts, before his own agent got the scripts to him. So essentially, working on his behalf and showing him how important it was and showing him that I can actually, like, the difference between, you know, your, your apathetic agent and me is vast. So mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. The second thing that popped to my mind is, don't put any ceiling on where you can push your profession. So Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan actually shared the same, the same trainer. It's a guy named Tim Grover. And he wrote two books about what it was like working very closely with them, you know, basically spending every day with them. And there's two lines that popped in my mind when, after I was thinking about the conversation about Ovitz.

• 6:35David Senra?

  And Tim Grover writes, "The greats figure out what works for them regardless of what everyone else does." And number two, everyone wanted to be like Mike. Mike did not want to be like anyone else. And so if you actually analyze how there were, there were talent agents before, you know, Michael Ovitz was born. There's talent agents to this day. And yet, one of the things that is most fascinating about his story is like, he just, he figured out what worked for him. He didn't really care what other agents were doing. In fact, he maybe looked at what other agents were doing as what not to do, or what to like, basically attack areas that they weren't doing. So, one of the innovations he had was the decision that, hey, we're all going to service, every single agent inside of CA is going to service the clients together.

• 7:19David Senra?

  It's essentially like a giant swarm of agents where, in the past, you were, you were assigned to one person, you only worked with one person, and that caused all kind of internal conflict, and you weren't, it was just a lot better. Five people servicing you than one person, you know, wind up working out a lot better for, for the talent that's CA assigned. And then he didn't just stay there. He's like, "Oh, okay, what are we supposed to do?" There's, there's a great story where it's like, most talent agents, what would they do? They would field offers. They're like, "Okay, there's 10 offers, we have to choose between them, maybe we negotiate a little higher salary." Or the case is like, "No, we're gonna, we're not gonna field opportunities, we're gonna create them." And then that led to the next thing where, "Hey, we're gonna create entire packages for the studios." Which also helped him control prices and make more revenue for the agency.

• 8:03David Senra?

  And then from there, he's like, "What else can I do? I'm gonna get into corporate M&A." No other talent, like, no other talent agency, none of his other competitors were even thinking like this. And the size and scope of his ambition, again, no, don't put any ceiling on where you can push your profession, you know, you just pursue the opportunities and chase after them. He winds up brokering like, multiple billion dollar deals. I think, I think one of them was like, six and a half billion dollars. No, again, no other, none of his other competitors, no other agent was doing this. He doesn't stop there. He says, "Hey, we're gonna start being marketing and advertising consultants for giant companies like Coca-Cola." And one of the things that he said at dinner is like, "If you're going to do things like this, when you do new things, you will be criticized.

• 8:45David Senra?

  And in that case, you'll be criticized by outsiders, by people outside of your company." Now, number two, no ceiling, don't put any ceiling on where you can push your profession, is also related to number three. Because for number two, you're going to be criticized out by people outside your company. Number three is I grew up going to church, Christian church, every week for my entire childhood. And I remember one of the, one of the lessons that they would repeat over and over again is the importance of not being, they said, don't be unequally yoked. And I think they meant just in relationships in general, but I specifically remember saying like, you know, make sure you're not, you don't marry people outside of the faith that have different, you know, beliefs in you. And the advice from Ovid is like, you need to make sure that you're picking partners that have the same ambition issue.

• 9:29David Senra?

  And so when I think about that, I think of, don't be unequally yoked. And when you're, when you have no ceiling on where you're going to push your profession, you're going to be criticized by outsiders because you're doing new things. But if you have picked partners that don't have the same ambition levels of you, uh, and you try to do new things, like all the things I just listed, you're actually also going to be criticized by insiders, which are people inside your company, your co-founders. I mean, it's going to lead to a lot of conflict and, you know, there's all kinds of stories in this autobiography, which I'll go over in the episode I make on it. It's a huge part of the story. And he says, this will manifest, he was saying at dinner, like the way this is a manifest is like, your partners will call it a distraction. And, you know, if you believe in it, like it's, it's not, it's probably not that it's a distraction. It's just they're not thinking as big as you are.

• 10:14David Senra?

  And you might find yourself, he didn't use this word, but unequally yoked is the way I think about it. When we talked about, you know, the issues with co-founders and how to maybe avoid all this and really like what he learned from this. What I found that was remarkable, because I know now he has new partners and he's scaling other companies and he's, and I know his partner. I asked like, how are you able to trust? Because two of his partners that screwed him over, uh, were like two of his best friends too. And so I asked him like, how do you trust partners after being fucked over? And I thought his answer was, cause you know, I, I keep people at arm's length. I have a hard time trusting other people and that may be a detriment. And he had a great perspective on this. He's like, you know, three people screwed me over in my life. He's like, but it's three out of a thousand.

• 10:58David Senra?

  And he's not going to let three out of a thousand people, you know, foreclose any future opportunity and, and being able to partner with people that aren't going to screw them over. Uh, I thought that was really interesting. Number four, read biographies, know everything about the history of your industry. There's a line, this is tied to a line that, um, that Ovid said to me where he says, only founders understand founders. So the first thing that popped in my mind is on page 179 of his autobiography, he talks about that Lou, he modeled himself after Lou Wasserman. There's a biography on Lou I have, I think it's called like The Last Mogul or The Last Tycoon, The Last, he was like The Last Hollywood Mogul. And I asked Ovitz at dinner, I was like, do you still like think Lou Wasserman was the best? And he said, yes.

• 11:41David Senra?

  And one of the benefits of reading biographies is obviously like, Ovitz started doing this, you know, he starts working when he's like nine years old. By the time he's high school, he's like voraciously reading biographies of men that did great things. And, you know, he read the Carnegie and the Rockefeller and all these people. He read all the biographies of all the people in Hollywood that came before him. And I think the important thing is what he's saying is like only founders understand founders. And so as you understand these life stories, as you listen to this podcast, you read biographies yourself, like you'll just realize like, oh, that's just like another me. And we're going through the exact same thing. He actually gave me advice too. He's like, you should really lean into more, the more unknown founders. Cause you know, he had read about the Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers and the Carnegie's and the Ford.

• 12:24David Senra?

  But he thought it was an edge to introduce people to other incredible founders that very few people have heard of before. So like Daniel Ludwig, Invisible Billionaire, Chung Ju Young, which is the craziest autobiography ever in my life. Sam Zemurray, Estee Lauder, another example, like even if you know the company name, very few people probably thought, you know, oh, I should see if that person has built this massive company. I wonder if they have an autobiography or a biography about them. And then even less people would actually go and read it. So again, read biographies, know everything about the history of your industry. Number five, have a profound sense of belief. And as you'll understand, like the world is also malleable. So there's a reason this is number five and read biography is number four, because you learn this if you read a bunch of biographies. And this is the things, one of the things I most admire about Ovitz.

• 13:09David Senra?

  There's a lot of things like, I love the fact that this guy never gives up and he's still pushing himself. He's in his late seventies and he's got tons of energy and he's working really hard. But he has got a great line in his autobiography where he says, nothing in Hollywood is anything until it's something. And the only way to make it something is with a profound display of belief. If you keep insisting, insisting that a shifting set of possibilities is a movie, it eventually becomes one. So Marc Andreessen, who actually modeled his venture firm, Andreessen Horowitz, on what Ovitz did at CAA, had a very similar line, and this is the way he describes what I feel is the same exact phenomenon. And Marc wrote, "The world is a very malleable place. If you know what you want and you go for it with maximum energy and drive and passion, the world will often

• 13:52David Senra?

  reconfigure itself around you much more quickly and easily than you would think." And so Ovitz doesn't see things as they are now. He sees what they could be, and then he proceeds to make that idea into a reality. And then number six, when you speak to him, I got the feeling that he just thought that like there's unlimited opportunity in the world. And surprisingly enough, I think something he learned earlier, and I think it still applies to today, is like, there's a lot of opportunity that's just hiding in plain sight. And I think you have some level of like self-confidence when you're able to pick something up that off the ground, like people kind of like threw away or didn't do anything with, and you turn it into something that's insanely valuable. And I think that's related to number two, which is, you know, just don't put a ceiling on. There's really no ceiling where you can push your profession. So, you know, there's a ton

• 14:37David Senra?

  of examples in the book, but like, he turns Shogun into this massive mini-series. I think it's the second most-watched mini-series of all time. And that opportunity was sitting inside of another agency, and the other agency wasn't doing anything with it for years. He finds another script for this movie called Tootsie. Again, six years, it was considered dead. This is impossible. This isn't an opportunity. Ends up making, it makes a couple hundred million dollars in profit. Rain Man, which is one of my favorite movies, I watched it, I don't even know how many times when I was a kid. Same thing. Other people couldn't get it done. Other people said, "No one's gonna watch this movie about this autistic guy." Makes well over $400 million. There's always opportunity hiding in plain sight, and there's unlimited opportunity in the world. And I feel like this has been coming up a lot, if you look at the past few episodes.

• 15:21David Senra?

  Like, think about Leon Hesse, right? Literally builds, the Hesse family just sold the business for $53 billion, right? What, how does that business start? That starts with Leon Hesse, who realizes, "Hey, you're throwing out a bunch of this oil, and because you think it's not valuable. I'm gonna start my empire with the stuff that you're throwing away," just like Sam Zemurray did the exact same thing with, in his banana trade, right? You're throwing out the ripes, I, that's, you're throwing in the trash. I see that. I don't see it as trash. I see it as opportunity hiding in plain sight. Jerry Jones, Dallas Cowboys, he paid 140 million for. They're worth 10 billion today. 75 people turned down the opportunity to buy the Cowboys before Jerry Jones did. If you're capable of thinking for yourself, if you have profound self-belief,

• 16:06David Senra?

  there's always opportunity hiding in plain sight. Number seven, by endurance we conquer. One of my favorite, probably my favorite line in the entire book. And I don't remember what the context of the discussion we were having at dinner, but we did talk about this and we both look at this the exact same way. But this line says, "He stopped because it was hard. It required discipline, dedication, and hours and hours of time. Everyone stopped. I didn't stop." That's related to one of my all-time favorite observations and quotes by Steve Jobs, where he says, "Steve said, 'I'm convinced that about half of what separates the successful entrepreneurs from the unsuccessful ones is pure perseverance. Unless you have a lot of passion about this, you're not going to survive. You're going to give up." And I actually think it's related.

• 16:50David Senra?

  He was talking about the difference between like his mentality and maybe some of the younger people that work in their company today, where they don't understand like how, they just haven't gone through life enough. So, you know, it's really hard to understand until you go through yourself. Like just how difficult and how much adversity you're going to have to constantly push through. And like what Steve just said, listen, you're going to have to deal with all kinds of crap and most of you are just going to wash out. I think in that trainee program that Obit started as a young man, I think 80% of the trainees that all start in the mailroom that are trying to be talent agents, from the time they start in the mailroom to the time they actually become an agent, like 80% wash out. One of the things I think like he can, that the young people that work with him today can benefit from is one, they see how fast he wants to move and how fast he wants to push.

• 17:35David Senra?

  And there was an example where, you know, he asked for something and maybe it was on like a Thursday night and it's still not there on Sunday. And the person's like, "Oh, I'll get in a few days." And he's like, "When I said, when I asked you on Thursday night, I expected to have it on Friday morning." And this person was shocked at the pace that Obit's wanted to move at. In fact, one of my favorite stories is in Herb Kelleher, his biography. Herb Kelleher was the founder of Southwest Airlines. It's the most successful airline in history. Under Herb's leadership, they wound up being profitable for something like 40 straight years. And so I want to read this excerpt from Herb Kelleher's biography, which I think is absolutely excellent. It says, Herb Kelleher illustrates the speed with which Southwest moves by telling a story about Don Valentine, the former, that's a funny, that gives you an indication of where we're going here,

• 18:18David Senra?

  right? The former VP of Marketing. Valentine had just joined Southwest from Dr. Pepper when the marketing group met in January to discuss a new television campaign. Valentine was ready with his timeline for producing the spots. Okay, you just came over, come over from Dr. Pepper, you're now at Southwest, you're going to give a presentation to the founder, the founder of Southwest. We have a great idea here. Okay, this is what we're going to do. This is the timeline. It's in January. Okay, so we're in January. I'm going to have the script ready in March. We're going to do the script approval in April. We're going to cast the commercial in June and we're going to shoot it in September. When Valentine finished, Kelleher said, Don, I hate to tell you, but we're talking about next Wednesday. So again, a lot of people just don't know how fast you can move. And as the leader of your company, you should really be pushing

• 19:02David Senra?

  the pace and showing what's possible. Number eight, this was very, very interesting. And I wrote very few things down. I tried to go into these conversations, obviously I'm prepared because I read about them and everything else, but I don't have like a list of things I want to talk about. But this was one of the things I want to talk about. So there was this young guy who Ovitz admired. In fact, I think he started a talent agency even like a younger age than Ovitz did. I think this guy was like 23 and Ovitz was like 27. They wind up building a relationship, Ted, his name's Ted. And in the book, it talks about giving him advice and seeing how, you know, how much Ovitz is pushing. And he said, I have a piece of advice and knowing you, you're not going to take it. But here it is, I could have worked 10% less and it wouldn't have made a difference in my professional success, but it would have been a lot happier. Ted was absolutely right on both accounts.

• 19:47David Senra?

  It was great advice and I didn't take it. I see now that it could have worked as much as 20% less and it wouldn't have cost me, and it wouldn't have cost me. If I worked even 10% less across 30 years, that's three extra whole years of life that I would have enjoyed. So this is one thing I did ask him at dinner. I was like, do you still believe that? Because, you know, he pushes the pace. Ovitz is still working an unbelievable amount of hours. But what he told me was fascinating. He's like, yes, but not on the rise. You know, I think, I forgot the number he told me, but I think within the first 10 years of CAA, 10 years after founding the company, they had like something like 75% market share of, you know, his industry. And so he's like, then you could work, you know, 10% less and I should have worked 10%

• 20:31David Senra?

  less. You might not be able to do that, especially as, you know, they, they were completely under financed. There's no venture capital. They were literally like, they had no money. They were taking second loans out on their houses, for God's sake. They had like no furniture. So he was under intense financial pressure right from day one, but he did, this is the advice he would give now is, you know, work 10% less. And really, I think what, what is stated there by Ted's advice and then Ovitz also agreeing with that advice is like, really important to optimize for the long term. You know, most of the, the profits in a business is very far out, you know, decade, two decades in the future. Think about the money that Microsoft makes today compared to what they made in 1990.

• 21:12David Senra?

  Apple is the same way. Oracle, Walmart, you know, these things can compound for a long, if all the values out in the future, you're, the advice is like, make sure you're not optimizing for growth at the expense of durability. You want to be, you want your company to be around. You want to still be doing what you're doing 20 years from now, 30 years from now, 40 years from now. Some of the best entrepreneurs I told you before, that I meet are in their seventies and they've been running their business for 45 years. And if you see, it doesn't even look like a company. It looks like they have their own world. It's incredible. And all the profits are in the future. So I think what the advice here is again, you really need to optimize for the long term. And if that means you push back, you cut back 10%, but you're still there, you know, two decades in the future, then it's obviously a trade that you want to make. Number nine, this is very

• 21:56David Senra?

  fascinating because he repeats this over and over again. Surround yourself with people who will tell you the truth. He said, I cannot stand yes men. And it will happen because, you know, Ovitz was in a glamorous business and then he did not like the publicity. It's mentioned over time, over and over again in the book. It causes problems with his partners. It caused problems with his clientele because it's clientele or, you know, they're obsessed with fame and they want to be the ones getting the attention. This happens with any kind of success, whether it's in the, the show business or even in, in just a regular commercial business. You're going to have people, because it's in their best interest, they just, they're going to say, they're not going to tell you the truth. The close friend that me and Ovitz share, Rick. Ovitz told me that he's fiercely loyal to him because he says Rick tells him the

• 22:39David Senra?

  truth, that he is direct and truthful. And he's not trying, and he understands, like, he's not telling me bad things to be needlessly critical, or to try to hurt my feelings or anything like that. He's telling them because we're friends and your friends tell you the truth. And Ovitz did this with me. He actually told me a few things that he thinks I'm doing wrong, or I could be doing better. And he could be right about that and definitely would think about it. But I went and actually pulled up, I talked about this at dinner, but then after dinner, I went and was, I asked Sage, like, what did history's greatest entrepreneurs say about the importance of getting unfiltered and truthful information about, about your business from the people that work with you? And how did they ensure that they got the best and most accurate information about the state of their business? And there's a bunch of

• 23:23David Senra?

  examples of this. One of them was, in the early days of Amazon, Jeff insisted that customers could email him directly at [email protected]. And then he received unfiltered customer feedback, because again, if you're just getting your information through your executives, right? They want to tell you the good news. This is what Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett warned about over and over again. And they would tell people, it's like, the good news takes care of itself. I don't even need to hear about that. Tell me the bad news and tell me it fast, because we don't let, we don't let bad news fester. The founder of Kinko's, Paul Orfallia, same thing. He had a voicemail system where any employee could leave him a message directly. He could, he was dyslexic, so he's not reading emails. He says, just call me. Tell me what the hell is going on, on the front lines. Sam Walton, he did not want to spend time in his office, right? There'd be hilarious stories in his

• 24:08David Senra?

  autobiography and his biography, where Sam would not adhere to a calendar. And so, you know, his secretary would set up like, you know, some appointment at like 7 a.m. in his office. And Sam's not showing up. And like, where is he? And they're like, oh, he left at 5 a.m., got in his little Cessna, and he flew to another Walmart store. And he's like, working and asking questions from the workers on the front line. That is how he knows he's getting unfiltered, truthful information about the state of his business. Jim Casey, same thing. UPS founder. What would he do? He made his driver, he instructed his driver, every time we pass that, these big brown trucks, pull over. And he goes and he talks, introduced himself, and he talks directly, gets direct information directly

• 24:50David Senra?

  from the people that are actually delivering the service to the customer. And finally, number 10, retirement is lame. That's a quote from Jeff Bezos, who gave this interview at the Dealbook Summit a few weeks ago, and I made an episode on it. He says retirement is lame. Ovitz would say the same thing. He is still, he talks about, he's still very driven. He feels it's very important that you need to have something that you can push forward, that you can wake up every day on. He told me that he has a bunch of friends that, you know, it's sold out or retired, decided they spend all their time playing golf or gardening. And then you speak to them a year later and they just aren't as sharp. They're just not as vibrant. They're just not as alive. There's a certain kind of personality type, you know, if you're listening to this, you're probably one of them, that you just, you need something no matter what until death. You need something

• 25:33David Senra?

  to push forward, something to focus on and to improve every single day. And I think Ovitz has that trait in common with the other people that I've done in this I Had Dinner With Series. So I'm thinking of Charlie Munger. He was still working until he died. Sam Zell told me to my face, I'll be doing deals till I die. He did that. Brad Jacobs, talk to him. He's gonna be working till he dies. John Mackey, same thing. Retirement is lame. Retirement is fatal. You need something to push forward and focus on and improve every single day. So before I go, I just want to review one through 10. Number one, mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. Number two, there is no ceiling on where you can push your profession. Number three, don't be unequally yoked. Pick partners that have the same ambition as you. Number four, read biographies, know everything about

• 26:18David Senra?

  the history of your industry. Number five, have a profound sense of belief, the world is malleable. Number six, there's always opportunity hiding in plain sight. Number seven, by endurance we conquer. Number eight, work 10% less, optimize for the long term. Number nine, surround yourself with people who will tell you the truth. And number 10, retirement is lame. That's everything I got for you now. Hope you listen to the next episode. I'll be going through Michael's excellent autobiography, which I hope you obviously buy and read as well. And then as I go through that biography, I'll also reference other things that relate to the dinner that Michael and I had and that are in the book. That is 381 down, 1,000 to go, and I'll talk to you again soon.