Pod Insights The Ezra Klein Show Why American Jews No Longer Understand One Another About this episode The consensus that held American Jewry together for generations is breaking down.
That consensus, roughly, was this: What is good for Israel is good for the Jews; anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism; and there will someday soon be a two-state solution that reconciles Zionism and liberalism — or, at the very least, Israel is seeking such a solution.
Every single component of that consensus has cracked. And as I've been talking to people from different walks of American Jewish life — politicians and rabbis and activists and analysts and journalists — what I realize is there is nothing coming in to replace it.
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You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html
This column read for “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by our executive producer, Claire Gordon, and Marie Cascione. Fact-checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Transcript 3,685 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:30 Ezra Klein? It is a tense time in the Jewish family group chats. The consensus that held American Jewry together for generations is breaking down. That consensus roughly was this: What is good for Israel is good for the Jews. Anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism. And there will someday soon be a two-state solution that reconciles Zionism and liberalism. At the very least, Israel is seeking such a solution. Every single component of that consensus has cracked. And as I've been talking to people from different walks of American Jewish life, politicians and rabbis and activists and analysts and journalists,
1:14 Ezra Klein? what you realize is there is nothing coming in to replace it.
1:18 Speaker 01 Young Jews look at Gaza and say, "Everything I was taught in rabbi school tells me this is wrong."
1:26 Speaker 02 People who want to say, "Oh, I just want to extricate Zion from Judaism." You do that, you get a different form of religion.
1:31 Speaker 03 I was sort of like hit by this. It was almost physical, like this is the question of this moment in Jewish history.
1:40 Ezra Klein? Zohar Mamdani's triumph in New York City's Democratic primary for mayor has forced, among many Jews, a reckoning. A reckoning with how far they've drifted from one another, how little they now understand each other. Mamdani doesn't use a slogan, "Globalizing the Fatah," but he does not condemn those who do, although he more recently said he would discourage it. Mamdani said that if he were mayor, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, would face arrest on war crimes charges if he ever set foot in New York City. And then, a few weeks before the election, Mamdani went on a local morning show, Good Day New York, and said this.
2:19 Speaker 04 Do you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state?
2:23 Speaker 05 I support Israel's right to exist as a state with equal rights. I believe that every state-
2:26 Speaker 04 Why not as a Jewish state?
2:28 Speaker 05 Because I'm not comfortable supporting any state that has a hierarchy of citizenship on the basis of religion or anything else. I think that in the way that we have in this country, equality should be enshrined in every country in the world. That's my belief.
2:40 Ezra Klein? Many older Jews I know are shocked and scared by Mamdani's victory. Israel, to them, is the world's only reliable refuge for the Jewish people. They see opposition Israel, particularly this kind of opposition Israel, opposition that questions its fundamental nature as a Jewish state, as a form of antisemitism. They believe that if the United States abandons Israel, then Israel will, sooner or later, cease to exist. To them, Mamdani is a harbinger. If he can win in New York City, then nowhere is safe. At the same time, many younger Jews I know voted for Mamdani. They're not afraid of him. What they fear is a future. Many would say a present, in which Israel is an apartheid state
3:25 Ezra Klein? ruling over ruins in Gaza and Bantustance in the West Bank. They fear what that means for anti-Jewish violence all over the world. They fear what that will do. They fear what that has already done to the meaning of Jewishness. Their commitment to the basic ideals of liberalism is stronger than their commitment to what Israel has now become. To call Mamdani an anti-Zionism is accurate, but the power of his position is that it is thoroughly, even banally, liberal.
3:57 Ezra Klein? Go back to that line he said in that interview. "I'm not comfortable supporting any state that has a hierarchy of citizenship on the basis of religion or anything else." There are ethno-nationalists who might object to that sentiment, but the flourishing of American Jews is built atop that foundation.
4:14 Speaker 03 It really points to what I think is really the fundamental contradiction of American liberal Zionism.
4:20 Ezra Klein? I was talking to Daniel May, the publisher of Jewish Currents, a leftist journal of Jewish thought. He's been writing about Mondani and particularly the way anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism get braided together and pulled apart.
4:32 Speaker 03 American Jews tend to think that our success in the United States is a product of the fact that the country does not define belonging according to ethnicity, or religion, of course. So what I think is interesting about Mondani is that he makes the case for what you, I think rightly, describe as a kind of anti-Zionism position, but he makes it in such a way that that shows actually how Zionism is within the American liberal framework, the much more uncomfortable fit.
5:01 Ezra Klein? This is the tension. For Jews of the diaspora, multi-ethnic democracy, in which the rights and security of political minorities are protected, is the bedrock on which our safety is built. For Jews of Israel, a Jewish majority is a bedrock upon which their state is built. David Ben-Gurion in 1947 was perfectly clear on this. Only a state with at least 80% of Jews is a viable and stable state. For decades, the two-state solution was a construct that allowed these values to coexist, if only at some point in the future. But that vision now lies buried beneath the settlements of the West Bank, beneath suicide bombings and attacks, beneath the rubble of Gaza, and the expansionist ambitions
5:45 Ezra Klein? of Israel's right-wing government.
5:47 Speaker 03 I think that there is a degree of...
5:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, willful denial that is like catching up to American Jewish politics.
5:57 Ezra Klein? Many American Jews blame Netanyahu for this. There's a fantasy that when he finally leaves or is defeated, Israel will snap back to the politics of its past, the politics that pursued, not successfully, but doggedly, a two-state solution. But Netanyahu survives because on this, as on much else, he represents the Israeli mainstream. Polls show a majority of Israeli Jews are open to the expulsion of Palestinians, and only a small and shrinking minority are still willing to entertain a Palestinian state. That there is widespread anger at Netanyahu in Israel is true. That those angry at him want his successor to seek a Palestinian state, even Palestinian rights, is false.
6:40 Speaker 01 It's a place of so much pain for the Jewish people right now.
6:46 Ezra Klein? Rachel Timoner, the senior rabbi at Brooklyn's congregation Beth Elahim, has been navigating these divisions in her own congregation.
6:53 Speaker 01 The portions of the Jewish community, which I think are much of the Jewish community, who are distraught over conditions in Gaza, over the behavior of the government, are just in pain over the pull of loyalty, often family connections, the essential nature of Israel in our Judaism, and our just human and humanitarian commitments.
7:24 Ezra Klein? But that instinct struggles with another.
7:27 Speaker 01 Another portion of the Jewish world feels that
7:33 Speaker 01 we here in America cannot know what it's like to live, as Israelis do, their whole lives surrounded by people trying to kill them and having nowhere else in the world that they can go, and feel that what it means to be a Jew is to stand with other Jews in their danger and in their existential need to be safe.
7:56 Ezra Klein? Virtually all Jews believe in the adage that antisemitism is a light sleeper. You can hear it awakening right now. This month, Elon Musk's XAI released an improved Grok model that sprayed the internet with veneration of Adolf Hitler, declaring itself, at different points and to different users, "Mecha Hitler." One user asked Grok if it could worship a god, and if so, which the AI would choose. Grok responded, "It would probably be the godlike individual of our time, the man against time, the greatest European of all times, both sun and lightning, His Majesty, Adolf Hitler." The Grok mess is unnerving. The violence we see in the real world is chilling.
8:40 Ezra Klein? A man is accused of setting fire to Governor Joe Shapiro's home. Two young employees of the Israeli Embassy in Washington were murdered as they left an American Jewish committee event. A man used a makeshift flamethrower to attack a crowd rallying for the Israeli hostages in Boulder, Colorado, killing a woman in her 80s. "In all of these cases," officials said, "the attackers described their motive as a defense of Palestinians."
9:02 Speaker 06 Suspect Cody Ballmer allegedly told 911 operators that Governor Shapiro needed to know that he, quote, "will not take part in his plans for what he wants to do to the Palestinian people." A man detained and handcuffed by event security was heard chanting, "Free Palestine."
9:19 Speaker 07 They say he shouted "Free Palestine" before the attack. This happened at a weekly gathering to support Israeli hostages, and he was arrested.
9:27 Ezra Klein? And that's become more common. The Washington Post reported, quote, "Attacks against the Jewish community have been growing for years," experts on hate crimes say. But increasingly perpetrators are citing Israel's war in Gaza, blurring the line between opposing the Israeli government and opposing Jewish people.
9:44 Speaker 01 The main thing that my community is experiencing is they are very afraid in New York.
9:51 Ezra Klein? Timonar, the rabbi in Brooklyn, said Mamdani's decision not to condemn the phrase "globalizing de fata" had heightened her congregation's sense of danger.
10:01 Speaker 01 I think that older Jews have a kind of intuitive sense of that danger in a way that younger Jews do not because of life experience. And I think that... Language leads to violence in shocking ways, but also predictable ways. And because in America, Jews are predominantly white and predominantly well-off, younger Jews and non-Jews feel like this is crying wolf when it is not.
10:39 Ezra Klein? Acres of evidence, studies, testimonies, a test to reality, all Jews know. Anger at Israel becomes anger at Jews everywhere. This is delicate territory, both emotionally and factually.
10:53 Speaker 02 Too often I hear people say, oh, Israel's policies cause antisemitism. And that drives me nuts.
10:59 Ezra Klein? That's Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University and President Joe Biden's special envoy to monitor and combat antisemitism abroad.
11:10 Speaker 02 Antisemitism is a prejudice. A prejudice can't be caused by something. It's irrational. It's inherently irrational. So does it give the antisemite a good excuse for ramping up their antisemitism? Or does it give the person who's been raised in Western culture where antisemitism is in the, in the air, in the atmosphere, you know, it's right there and it's in the weeds, growing up all the time, something to fall back on? Yes.
11:37 Ezra Klein? Other Jews see the link as more direct and more causal. Here's Daniel May again.
11:42 Speaker 03 I think absolutely the weekly reports of Israeli soldiers shooting on Palestinians who are in long lines to get food is a calamity for Jews. It's a spiritual crisis. It's a moral, political crisis, and I do think it is tangible effects on Jewish security.
12:02 Ezra Klein? Personally, I've watched the experience of rising antisemitism polarize young Jews into two camps. Some have moved closer to Israel, convinced that their elders were right and their standing in the West was more tenuous than they had believed. Some have moved into a deeper alienation, horrified at what is being done in their name and angry at the way their safeties felt compromised by the actions and politics of a state in which they do not live. They see what Ehud Olmert, Israel's former prime minister, saw when he wrote in Harats, "What we are doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation, indiscriminate, limitless, cruel and criminal killing of civilians."
12:43 Ezra Klein? For many young Jews, they look at this and they want no part of it. Are they to defend war crimes? Are they to defend, or even to accept, the use of mass starvation as a tool of war? Are they to believe in equality everywhere but in the state that is meant to be their spiritual home? I know many who bristled at the term genocide a year ago, but who have come to accept it now. Others, like Deborah Lipstadt, see a world that cares little for Jewish life, one that has always sought Israel's destruction.
13:16 Speaker 02 We're talking about a country that exists. So when you say, you know, "I'm an anti-Zionism," what is Zionism? It's the right of Jews to have a national homeland. And if you're saying, "I don't believe in that," then on a very practical level, what happens to the six-plus million Jews who live in that country? And for us to glibly say, "Well, I've given up on that," what's the implications?
13:41 Ezra Klein? After our conversation, Lipstadt emailed me to underscore a point. She wrote, "Here's what I would say to those young people, or whomever, who question the right of Israel to exist. They may not be, they probably are not, anti-Semitic in intent. But placing the lives of half of the world's Jewish population in danger is absolutely anti-Semitic in impact." I found myself mulling Lipstadt's point days later. Her argument is an almost precise echo of how Ibram X. Kendi defined antiracism. He wrote, "A racist policy is any measure that produces or sustains racial inequity between racial groups. An anti-racist policy is any measure that produces or sustains racial equity between racial groups."
14:26 Ezra Klein? When you define it like that, intent becomes irrelevant. What matters are consequences. But that can tip you into very disorienting conclusions. If you believe that Netanyahu has put Israel on a path to become an international pariah, and that is bad for Israel and bad for the Jews, is he then an anti-Semite in impact, even if not in intent? If you believe it would be better if Israel faced real pressure to create a viable Palestinian state, that is, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement in fact a friend to the Jews? To measure anti-Semitism by the consequence of policies and actions is to open debates that many would prefer to keep closed. Debate about Israel often circles the same, and I've always thought, very strangely posed question.
15:10 Ezra Klein? Does Israel have the right to exist? Do you believe in Israel's right to exist? It's a question engineered to trap the conversation in the past, rather than to take in the realities of the present. Israel does exist. Israel's a rich nuclear armed power, with the strongest military in the region by far. It decapitated Hezbollah. It humiliated Iran. Hamas could perpetrate the murders of October 7th only because Israel had become so certain of its strength that it allowed its attention to basic questions of security to lapse. But Hamas did not then, and certainly does not now, threaten Israel's existence.
15:53 Ezra Klein? What Israel has is more than the right to exist. It has the strength to exist. The Jews who live there have more than the right to self-determination. They have self-determination. The same cannot be said for Palestinians. About 2 million Palestinians live inside Israel. They are, by any measure, second-class citizens. In 2018, three Palestinian members of Israel's Knesset proposed a law to affirm, quote, "the principle of equal citizenship for every citizen", and to outlaw, quote, "discrimination on grounds of nationality, race, religion, gender, language, color, political outlook, ethnic origin, or social status." Yuli Edelstein, then the speaker of the Israeli Knesset,
16:37 Ezra Klein? would not permit the law to even be debated. He said, "This is a preposterous bill that any intelligent individual can see must be blocked immediately. A bill that aims to gnaw at the foundations of the state must not be allowed in the Knesset." And the situation is immeasurably worse for the 5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel decides where they can move and where they can go. Israel decides who can enter the West Bank and Gaza and who can leave. Israel decides what the Palestinian Authority can do and what it cannot. When I was driving across the West Bank on a reporting trip last year, the debate that raged in America over the protesters at college campuses who chanted "From the river to the sea", it disintegrated from me into farce.
17:20 Ezra Klein? There is a single sovereign between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, and every checkpoint and every road closure was a reminder of who it is. In his book, Being Jewish After Destruction of Gaza, Peter Beinart writes, "Self-determination means determination of the self, not others. Just as one person cannot invoke their individual right to self-determination to control another person, one group of people cannot invoke their collective right to control another group. The question is not whether Israel's a right to exist. It is whether Israel's a right to dominate. Outside of Israel, domination by the ethnic majority is what Jews have been taught to fear most."
18:01 Speaker 08 After October 7th, I joked more than once that I was gonna open like a family therapy practice, you know, for like liberal Zionist parents whose kids took the social justice values seriously and like emerged as anti-Zionism.
18:18 Ezra Klein? That's Brad Lander, New York City's comptroller and the highest ranking Jewish person in the city government. Lander has a fascinating role in this because he also cross-endorses M'Ghdaani. Lander told me that he doesn't feel M'Ghdaani has an antisemitic bone in his body. At the same time, Lander bristles over some of the rhetoric M'Ghdaani has defended.
18:36 Speaker 08 I don't like the phrase "globalize the itifada." I'm sure some people mean to be saying "fight for the rights of Palestinians," you know, all around the world, but in the wake of Boulder and DC. Like, what I hear is open season on Jews, and I would prefer you find another way to advocate, you know, passionately for the rights and freedom and safety and dignity of Palestinians.
19:02 Ezra Klein? But disagreement, the hearing of things differently, is the price of multi-ethnic democracy. And that, to Lander, is what is at stake here. I was talking to him the week Netanyahu nominated President Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize. Mayor Eric Adams, a current mayor of New York, who is entwined now with the Trump administration in strange unsettling ways, is considering running for reelection on the "end antisemitism" ballot line.
19:30 Ezra Klein? Many of the Trump administration's attacks on civil society in America have been thinly justified as attempts to combat antisemitism, particularly on universities. All this as Vice President J.D. Vance is giving speeches in which he insists Americanness is yoked to the number of your ancestors buried here, in this soil, not your commitment to the ideals and success of this country.
19:51 Speaker 09 And I happen to think that it's absurd, and the modern left seems dedicated to doing this, to saying, "You don't belong in America unless you agree with progressive liberalism in 2025." I think the people whose ancestors fought in the Civil War have a hell of a lot more claim over America than the people who say they don't belong.
20:10 Ezra Klein? Antisemitism is serving as a beard for an assault on the ideals and institutions that have made America into a place where Jews can flourish. If Israel becomes a right-wing ethno-state, and if opposition to that state is antisemitic, then Jews will become mascots for a politics that would have made the Jewish diaspora completely unthinkable.
20:30 Speaker 08 The world where, like, everybody gets a right-wing ethno-state is not going to be good for the Jews, even if we get one.
20:38 Ezra Klein? To Lander, this is the threat. This is the vision he himself is fighting.
20:44 Speaker 08 You know, like, we all go to Netanyahu's Israel because we're not welcome here, and it's well armed, so maybe we have a chance. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, that is a dark time line I do not want to live in, no matter how great a military you give me, and it's not a Jewish time. You know, like, I don't understand that as Jewish.
21:05 Ezra Klein? New York City, Lander continued, has stood as the opposite of that vision.
21:09 Speaker 08 It's incredible what this place has been for us for a century-plus now, after 2,000 years of getting the crap kicked out of us all around the world. Like, to have been able to be able to flourish here, be safe, but not just safe. I mean, you know, it's like, even like, why everyone has to answer what their bagel order is in the mayor's race, you know? It's like, you know, that's true in different ways. It's an amazing Dominican city, and Chinese city, and lots of other things, but it's an amazing Jewish city, and it kind of, to me, just like, proves the point that there is some resonance between Jewish flourishing and inclusive multiracial democracy.
21:50 Ezra Klein? That may be true here. It is not how most Jews in Israel see it.
21:56 Ezra Klein? For decades, American Judaism, built on the liberalism of the diaspora, has been interwoven with Zionism. But what happens when the ideals of the one become incompatible with the reality of the other?
22:10 Speaker 03 It's hard to overstate how much Zionism has done in American Jewish life. It has done so much work in American Jewish life for grounding American Jewish identity.
22:21 Speaker 02 My anchor is 6 million real people. Can I hold in my heart the reality of 6 million Jews living in Israel and that they shouldn't be suffering over Gazans? Absolutely. You can hold two truths in your heart.
22:35 Speaker 01 Jews look at Gaza and say, "Everything I was taught in religious school tells me this is wrong. And to be a good Jew, I need to stand against what is happening there." I think that they are missing the other part of that equation, which is that many of the forces that are seeking to change those conditions do not care what happens to the Jews who live there. And we need to both care with all of our being for Palestinian freedom because we actually are not whole or free until Palestinians are free. And equally, our own people need to be safe and free and be held by the world as having lives of equal value.
23:19 Speaker 03 I think a lot of people are very aware of the question you're asking and very few... I think we're all struggling to figure out how to answer it.
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