We Made a Document Editor Where Humans and AI Work Side by Side

Every has unveiled a new product, built by CEO Dan Shipper. It's called Proof, a free, open-source, live collaborative document editor built for humans and AI agents to work in together. Proof started as a Mac app designed to show the provenance of AI-written text—purple for AI, green for human. But when Shipper rebuilt it as a web app with real-time collaboration, something clicked. Suddenly, everyone at Every was using it for everything from planning docs, to creative writing and even daily to-do lists. The team realized they needed a lightweight space where their OpenClaw agents and humans could co-author documents and leave comments. In this special episode, Shipper is joined by Every chief operating officer Brandon Gell, Cora general manager Kieran Klaassen, and head of growth Austin Tedesco to demo Proof live and share how it's changed the way they work. Brandon walks through a loop where his Codex agent writes a plan, Dan's personal Claw R2-C2 reviews it, and the humans just steer. Austin explains how he uses Proof to write a weekly food newsletter, texting ideas to his Claw on runs and watching an outline take shape. And Kieran makes the case that Proof's power is its lightness—just a link you can hand to any agent or colleague. The conversation covers what "agent native" means in practice, why AX (agent experience) matters as much as UX (user experience), what happens when 10 agents edit one document at the same time, and why some writing is now better read by an AI than a human. If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share! Want even more? Sign up for Every to unlock our ultimate guide to prompting ChatGPT here: https://every.ck.page/ultimate-guide-to-prompting-chatgpt. It's usually only for paying subscribers, but you can get it here for free. To hear more from Dan Shipper: Subscribe to Every: https://every.to/subscribe Follow him on X: https://twitter.com/danshipper Get started building today at http://framer.com/dan for 30% OFF a Framer Pro annual plan. Download Grammarly for free at Grammarly.com Timestamps 00:02:00 — Introduction and the origin story of Proof 00:07:24 — From Mac app to collaborative web editor 00:09:00 — What makes Proof “agent native” 00:14:30 — Live demo: watching an agent join and write inside a shared document 00:20:51 — How Austin uses Proof for creative writing and food journalism 00:24:30 — The challenge of multiple agents editing one document simultaneously 00:26:48 — When AI-written docs are better read by agents than by humans 00:29:30 — Brandon’s agent-to-agent collaboration loop 00:37:09 — Proof as a lightweight scratchpad vs. existing tools like Notion and GitHub 00:42:18 — Why Proof is open source and what that means for builders Links to resources mentioned in the episode: Proof Editor:⁠ https://proofeditor.ai⁠ Proof GitHub repo (open source):⁠ https://github.com/EveryInc/proof⁠ Every's compound engineering plugin:⁠ https://github.com/EveryInc/compound-engineering-plugin⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Shipper?

  It became clear that what we needed was a live collaborative web-based document that humans and agents could be in at the same time, making changes and leaving comments and doing track changes and all that kind of stuff.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm trying to write this thing for Saturday. That's like an essay about a dinner I had at Squirrel, this like restaurant in LA. And so to get there, it's like a bunch of text between me and my agent to push to this proof doc. Using my agents and proof to get here, one, speeds up creative writing for me, and two, I think does make it stronger and better and easier. And I love that. And I can see what it wrote versus what I wrote for me, which is really helpful and so much better than a Google Doc.

• 0:58Dan Shipper?

  Work moves fast. And in the age of AI, the pressure isn't just to move faster, it's to make sure what you send really sounds like you. From emails to proposals to stakeholder updates, generic and rushed just doesn't cut it. And if you've ever stared at a blank page, knowing exactly what you want to say, but not how to start, Grammarly fixes that. Grammarly gives you one place to think, write, and finish your work, right where you already write. Most AI tools either take over or stay out of the way. Grammarly does neither. It helps you break the blank page, adjust your tone so message lands right for the specific person reading it, and work seamlessly across 500,000 apps and sites you're already in. It's loaded with agents built for every step of your process. 90% of professionals

• 1:41Dan Shipper?

  say it's helped them save time. 93% says it helps them get more done. This is AI that works with you, not over you. In a world of generic AI, don't sound like everybody else. With Grammarly, you never will. Download Grammarly for free at grammarly.com. That's grammarly.com. And now, back to the episode. Special episode today. We have been building a live collaborative market editor for both humans and agents. It works in the browser. We love it. We started using it internally. It's like really kind of taken off inside of every. And so today, we are launching it as a full product that you can go use. It's totally free at proofeditor.ai. It's also open source.

• 2:24Dan Shipper?

  And we wanted to just do this episode to talk a little bit about proof, what it is, why it's cool, how we built it, all that kind of stuff. So for people who don't know, Brandon, you are the COO of Every, and Kieran, you are the GM of Quora and also the father of compound engineering. I also want to welcome Austin. Austin's our head of growth, and you're proof fans.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I think we should go back to you, Dan, and be like, why is it even called proof? Because it's not called proof because of what it is now. It just happens to sound good.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  And so what was it originally and how do we get here too?

• 3:01Speaker 03

  I know you talked about this for a while, maybe a year already. So yeah. Bring us through all the pieces in your brain. And also, Dan is saying, we built this thing, but really, Dan built this thing and we're just adding thoughts and things. Dan built this whole thing while growing the company, while being a CEO, just at the side, vibe coding, and he's getting the vibes. He's so happy doing this. Look at Adam's smile right now. It's his baby. So that's really cool.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the CEO built a new product on the side that now everybody uses that sick. And Naveen just admitted a PR that Dan just merged. I just admitted a PR that Dan's gonna no look merge probably.

• 3:54Dan Shipper?

  Obviously, straight to production.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  And so like, it's like now everybody's like, oh, wait, I want this feature. And

• 4:03Speaker 02

  it's like, kind of, it's amazing. But yeah, Dan, why don't you tell us, why don't you tell everybody, why did you start building proof originally?

• 4:12Dan Shipper?

  I mean, if we want to go way back, you know, we incubated a text editor, a word processor at Every called Lex, like, almost three years ago, maybe more, which was the first time that we sort of combined text and AI together. And so, and that was, that was built mostly by my co-founder of Every, Nathan. And we spun that out as a separate company. And that was like, you're writing, but you're, you're writing with AI on the side, or like, in line with you a little bit in the, in the actual word processor. But fundamentally, it's a word processor. I think a proof is being very different, which is.

• 4:52Dan Shipper?

  It's for this mode of writing that I've started to feel like a lot of us internally at Ever are starting to do, which is, for example, when you're coding with AI, you make a plan doc. And that's, that document is mostly written by AI and maybe you're like going in and doing some changes here and there, or like asking it to change it for, for you. And that's a whole different way of interacting with writing. I think a lot of people have, you know, said for a while, oh, I'll never read AI writing. And it's like, actually, I read AI writing all the time. And I actually, the, the other place where I started to feel the need for this is actually, we did this company planning exercise for our 2026 planning.

• 5:34Dan Shipper?

  Brandon set up these Notion agents, which helped us for anyone who's running a business inside of Ever, you get interviewed by an agent and then it turns that into a like 2026 plan doc. And I just remember looking at all those plans and being like, wow, these are amazing. But also Austin submitted this like super comprehensive growth plan, but has he like really like looked at every single line of this? And does he really stand behind every single thing? And so the original idea for proof is like, we needed a good way to tell what was human written, what was AI written, but also like how much thought went into everything and, and what do you actually stand behind versus not?

• 6:18Dan Shipper?

  And, and, and so like the, the original version of proof, it was a Mac app and it had a little gutter on the side that showed like purple for AI and green for human, which it still has. But what was really interesting is in making the Mac app, I did all this stuff. I had, it had like this, it was a sick Mac app. It had this like cool internal agent integration with like subagents and like all this stuff. But in using it, I was like, actually, the killer feature is just being able to share. It's just being able to share docs. And because what we find is, you know, if I'm, if I'm working on a little thing with an agent and I make a plan,

• 6:59Dan Shipper?

  I really want Karen to be able to look at it and I really want Karen to be able to like leave comments and I really want Karen's agent to be able to look at it. And so it just sort of became clear that what we needed was a live collaborative web-based document that humans and agents could be in at the same time, making changes and leaving comments and doing track changes and all that kind of stuff. And that's sort of, that was sort of like the evolution of it.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  And I will say, when you were building like the provenance version of proof, I was like, this is cool, but I don't really get it. When you say it out loud, like it makes sense. But I wasn't like reaching for it. And I don't think a lot of people were like, I think the editorial team was excited about it, but like everyone else was like, cool, Dan's off doing this thing. The editorial team likes it. Don't really know, you know, exactly what's going on. And then when you, the second you made it a web app and you made it a collaborative thing that agents could and humans could work on together, basically every single one of us started doing everything in there.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  So it's kind of just an interesting story of like finding the fit and now it's like a serious fit.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  And it's also whenever like everyone uses claws or Claude or some kind of agents to do work. So we're also at this time where suddenly like there is all this work done and there's all this stuff generated, but like, how do you share? It's like the first step to like memory or sharing or collaboration within a team. And it just feels like this is very natural as a glue to bring things together because humans can look at it. Like I can look at it. I can open it, which is, is, is nice. I can trust it by looking at it. And an agent can do it as well. Like it's, it's equally, and I think this is cool because this is your agent native philosophy. Like this app is

• 8:57Speaker 03

  really built from those principles of like agent native and.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I would would love to like this. This is your first agent native app in this way like. What did you learn doing it that way? Like what works? What didn't work? Because you say I had all these agents inside. But there are no agents inside, but there are because there are agents like, can you tell a little bit like what you learned there?

• 9:22Dan Shipper?

  That's a really good question. And yeah, I do think it has been really useful to. Do this because getting my hands in the code. I mean, it's not, they're not really in the code because I've I've coded this whole thing, but getting my hands in architecting the code, I'll say that. Has really um. Helped me develop like deeper opinions about. How, for example, an agent native product can work and what are the different types of agentated products? So like, for example.

• 9:54Dan Shipper?

  You can be agent native without having an agent in your product. Uh, because you can have, you can be agentated from an internal perspective, you have an agent in your product that could do anything in the product. Or an external perspective, any agent can connect into the product and do anything in the product. And both are valid and sometimes you can have a product that has both.

• 10:16Dan Shipper?

  And I did, I did actually like the um. The the internal version, but I think what I started to realize, especially once we had claws, once you have a claw. The claw has so much context on you and what you're doing that. What you really just want is a claw in your document with you. You want, you want like that that co author hanging out with you. And um, having an, having an internal agent that doesn't know any context is just sort of, it feels like not. It's not powerful. It's not that interesting. Um, and I can, I can imagine there are certain times where you might want a language model inside of it, like, for example, we have this. Way to um, we're, we're, we're working on a way to uh summarize the document for the social share. So when I share it with you, you kind of get a little bit of a preview.

• 11:01Dan Shipper?

  And that's like a nice little LM summary. And I think there actually could be really interesting use cases for LMs on. Sometimes, you know, Austin, you shared this document, for example. Where we were having all of our claws update the document and just went, it just went nuts. It went crazy. And I think having an LM playing a little bit of a traffic cop role in, inside of a document could be kind of interesting. Like, there's lots of stuff to do. Especially now that there's um.

• 11:32Dan Shipper?

  And now that text is so cheap to produce, one thing that you care about is is provenance, potentially, and and I think that was less important than I thought, but like you also need, I I have this feeling like I need a canonical version of a document that like doesn't get updated unless I really say yes. And then I want the agents to have all these other versions that they can like mess around with, and we can take what's good about each of the different versions and put it into the canonical version. So that's what I love about getting to build this stuff is you start to get intuitions for now that we've relaxed this constraint, now that agents can write inside of a text editor super easily, and they can write a ton, it opens up all of these different possibilities for what,

• 12:15Dan Shipper?

  you know, what you might want your text editor to be, especially if you're mostly optimizing it for the agents to do the writing and humans can write, but like, usually when I'm writing a proof, it's like, I feel like I'm God, like coming down and just like giving my like little sentence or whatever, because it's so rare. Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  I think we should, I think a couple other things that I realized through using it a bunch is, like, I always knew that giving context to an AI is so important, but through proof, I realized how important it is to create like such a good plan, how much more effective it is to create a good plan and then say, go do that plan. Proof is a place where you can do that. You can work on the plan together and then say, go do that plan. And I know we all have really good examples of that. The other thing that I realized is like, Dan, when you first told me about it, I was like, oh, cool. But like, we need a place to like, save these things, you know, which is true. And like, we're gonna launch

• 13:14Speaker 02

  that, but it actually doesn't matter that much, because the reality is like, plans are really short, like, they help you do long horizon things, but in the grand scheme of things, they're just like a moment, and then they don't matter anymore. So that's been amazing. Like, I have five proof doc documents open right now, and especially because I make them with my claw, because my claw has a skill, and she just knows to like, make proof documents when I want to make a plan. I don't even need a place to save them, because I just say, Zosia, like, pull up the Slack to Discord, Discord to Slack proof, and she sends it to me.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  So those have been like interesting experiences that are different than, you know, normal working.

• 14:03Dan Shipper?

  Yeah, totally. It like it's it's part of it's it's all sort of a function of text is really cheap to produce. It's really valuable, but it's also really cheap to produce. And so the way that you might design how you work with text has to change. So I can, I'm going to share my screen so we can, we can show proof. So this is what it looks like. It's just, this is the landing page. It will actually be different by the time this episode airs, but this is the landing page and it's super simple. You just press start writing. And now you're now you're in a document. That's, that's all you have to do. There's no login and nothing like that. I can say, proof, podcast, agenda. And you can see it has this like kind

• 14:48Dan Shipper?

  of green thing over here, which means I wrote this. And I can do a little title. But the cool thing is, and I probably have to change my sharing settings in order to show you this.

• 15:01Dan Shipper?

  The cool thing is that what I can do is,

• 15:12Dan Shipper?

  what I can do is I can press add agent over here, and I can copy that link and post and give it to my claw R2. And I can say, I'm recording a podcast.

• 15:25Dan Shipper?

  Can you fill in an agenda? It's about the proof launch. And what you'll, what you'll see in a second is R2 is going to actually join this document and write a bunch of stuff in there. And then, and you can see R2 here, R2 is right here. He's got a little claw icon. And you'll see him in a second actually start to share, start to write stuff in this document. And then I'm going to actually share it with the podcast crew here. So you can see everybody else here as well. You can see we've got Brandon's in here.

• 16:01Dan Shipper?

  We've got an anonymous collaborator. I don't know who that is. Hopefully it's uh no- nothing nefarious.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  That's me, I think.

• 16:11Dan Shipper?

  That's Kieran. And in just a second, we will cut through this, but in just a second, we will have our two posting a uh a plan doc for us. And um let's hope it works. Live demos, folks.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  It's uh it's not live live, so.

• 16:31Dan Shipper?

  It's not live live. That's true. That thank God. Here we go. We got a proof. We got a proof launch podcast agenda. We got one thing.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  So. Yeah. What what is very cool is you pasted this snippet inside your a agent there. But you don't have any skill or anything installed. It's just copy paste, right? There's nothing more than copy paste, which is very, very easy. It's super low friction.

• 17:04Dan Shipper?

  It's just copy paste and the idea is to um yeah, make it as ergonomic as possible. One of my things I've been saying recently, one of my bits is um. I think AX is just as important as UX. In this new world, uh and AX is just agent experience versus user experience. And what's really interesting about AX is if you want to optimize it, all you have to do is ask the agents. So it's really easy to be like, how would you have made this better?

• 17:37Dan Shipper?

  And or how would you, why did you get confused and how would you make it more ergonomic for yourself? And that lets you iterate the AX so that um it's super intuitive for any agent to use it. And that's what what I've tried to do here where it's it is better if you have a skill, but it is um. It is totally possible for the agent to just basically figure it out because everything is available to it.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's really cool. And I think because of that, like I started using it immediately because it was so easy to get started. And then you feel it. You're like, oh, this is super handy. And you're like, oh, but I want some refinement here. Let me create a skill around this, do something like that. And then you're already using it and sharing it. So that is very good. Like, I think that is the the major strength is that you can just immediately share this with an agent without logging in, creating accounts, anything. That is very good.

• 18:36Dan Shipper?

  And here we are. We've got our podcast agenda. And so you can see, you know, it's all purple. We still have Archie in here. We've got Brandon. We've got anonymous collaborator. And I can just go in here and say hello. Oh, that didn't work.

• 18:55Dan Shipper?

  Wow, we've got some bugs here, folks. And I can just go in here and do hello, and it shows up green. And that's that's proof. And it has really changed, I think, the way a lot of us work. Austin, I'm kind of curious from your perspective, you know, on on the growth side, like, are you using this? And if so, how? And and how does it? Yeah, how does it change your workflow? We like to move really fast at every. We're always shipping new features and we run five products internally with just 20 people. It used to be that updating any of our landing pages was a huge time suck. But then we started to use Framer. Framer is a website builder that works like a design tool,

• 19:36Dan Shipper?

  which means that the people who are closest to your brand and your customers can shape your landing pages themselves. Non-coders on our team use it all the time to ship website updates. And the results honestly are beautiful. It's really easy to use. There's real time collaboration, which means your team can design together, see changes instantly and ship faster. A robust CMS gives you everything you need for great SEO and content management. It also has advanced analytics with integrated A B testing that lets you optimize and improve continuously. Then it's just one click to publish. Your changes go live in seconds so you can iterate it. Speed of your ideas and it's not just us. Companies like perplexity, Miro and mixed panel trust Framer for their websites because the tool is enterprise grade. They offer premium hosting, enterprise security and 99.99% uptime SLAs.

• 20:19Dan Shipper?

  Whether you're launching a new website, testing landing pages, or building out your full site, Framer gives you the tools and support to move fast and build something great. And everyone on your team can use it. Learn how you can get more out of your dot com from a Framer specialist or get started building today at framer.com/dan for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/dan for 30% off. Rules and restrictions may apply. Seriously, we use this tool all the time. You should really check it out. And now, back to the episode.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I use it in two like normie ways. I really like two of them just happened today. Actually, one is our colleague Rachel, who produces the podcast, made this like Slack based bot to make scheduling live streams easier. She made it and Claude code sent it to me and was like, hey, can you install this into Slack for me? Since I have admin permissions and it didn't quite work right away. So I went into Claude code in the CLI and made some changes to it until it started working. And then at the end of the session, it's a thing I've started doing with like a bunch of people at our team who like me are not technical, but are pushing on these tools.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  I asked Claude code like, hey, can you make a proof doc for Rachel? So that she can see everything we did and just send it to her. And especially because it's so, so like lightweight and easy. And Claude, especially on Opus 46, like knows how to recap that really well. I sent it to her and she was like, wow, this is so helpful that I can see like what you did to improve this. And it was really funny. Dan, you and I were talking about like how we were going to launch this thing. I think on Monday and I had this whole plan in my mind of like, oh, it's all about providence. It's all about you gotta like send your boss this like planning doc and they gotta see what you wrote and what the agent wrote. And I had so much conviction about that a couple of weeks ago. On Monday, you were like,

• 22:12Speaker 01

  I don't really care about that anymore. Like it matters, but it's like, actually this thing where it's like, uh, it's like one space for agents and humans to work together is really powerful. So there's that. And the other one that I've really loved as someone who does a lot of like personal creative writing and comes from a place at Substack where people like hold their own voice and writing so precious to them in a way that makes sense. And it's actually like people on Substack and host post all the time of like, I know who's writing with AI and like, I'm judging them, right? Like, I have loved proof as someone who writes about food each week for a newsletter because I'm often like, I'll eat somewhere and then I'll

• 22:54Speaker 01

  text my claw, like, here's what I thought. And I'm like, keep a running proof doc of my thoughts, like from the eating I'm doing, because that's the best way to like have a running doc. And then I'll be like, I usually tell it like, make me an outline. And then I get an outline, it's always updating. And then I'll go in and write into the outline myself. And I love that. And I can see what it wrote versus what I wrote for me, which is really helpful and so much better than a Google Doc. Like I was doing that in Google Docs and one, it's really clunky with agents in Google Docs. I'm not smart enough to figure it out. But also I can't track like what's me and what's the agent, which is really important to me. So those, those two, which are a little more like personal work stuff, has been really, really powerful for me.

• 23:36Dan Shipper?

  I love that. I use it for that all the time. Um, like I use it for, I have basically my daily to do list, I just do it in proof. And I, I, every, every week I make a new document, I pin it in Slack. And then I'm just, you know, it's, we're doing a lot. There's a lot of stuff happening all the time. And anytime something happens, I'm just like, cool, throw it in my to do doc. And that makes it really easy for me to make sure, okay, at the end of the day, what did I do? What did I not do? Okay, R2C2 my claw, can you just go take the stuff I didn't do and like push it into the next day? Or can we figure out how to like get it done? Can you just do it? You know, that kind of stuff. It's really helpful for those like kind of async document creation and, and updating so that by the time you get into it, it's ready for you to just like get started.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I got really excited yesterday during the madness of all of our agents trying to update that doc for us because I think I think Kieran, like you and actually it was funny, all of the engineer, all the GMs were like, this is insane. I can't focus. Way too much shit is happening. Because what we're trying to do is I was trying to build this like landing page that was an always on reach test for every of like, you could always go and see what is our team using for vibe coding, for writing, for research. And I was like, oh, can our claws just update it themselves? And it's not quite there yet. They kept like duplicating and then like triplicating the page. But it made me excited because it's

• 25:03Speaker 01

  like, this thing will be there, I think relatively soon, right? That it's like your agents can go and update stuff. And my agent can read what Kieran's agent wrote. And then I can read the changes. And for a company that's using like, as many agents as we have people in for someone who does a lot of strategy docs, like in this world, it seems like such an essential way of working now, once we get it right.

• 25:27Dan Shipper?

  Yeah, that's so true. And yeah, there's this thing where it's like, one agent who does one bad thing can pollute the entire document. And that's a really interesting problem to solve. Like, you don't have to do that. And you don't have to worry about that in Google Docs, because like humans, there's a big social cost to like ruining someone else's document. And humans are generally smart enough not to do that. But like agents with great power, they have a ton of power and zero responsibilities. So like, they often like, just do shit that you you would be like, ah, I don't think I would do it quite that way, you know? And I think that's a really interesting user experience challenge to figure out, how do you, how could you have 10 agents in a document and make the output actually good?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the like, the like, humans plus agent collabs, like, I think if it's like, only the agents are working in this, and we'll see what they come up with, is one thing, or like, only we're doing this, and then our agents read it is another thing. But coming to a future, we're like, we're somehow all working in there together, whether it is like, a planning doc, a piece of writing, like, I think we're headed there. And that's an entirely different way of working that. We are breaking so that we can figure out how to make it work for everyone else.

• 26:41Dan Shipper?

  Yeah, I think another another thing that proof makes me think about is as people who love writing and all of us here are writers. What does it mean for the future of of writing? And it feels to me like there's there's a class of writing where you actually want to read it from the AI more than you want to read it from the human, which is kind of surprising and interesting like that document that you made for Rachel Austin. If you had written that document, I don't think that she would have wanted to read that.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  No, and I think the I'll I'll I'll share it right here. I think it's like it's interesting to see. I also don't really think that she should read it. I think like an agent should read it and summarize it for her. Can you all see it?

• 27:26Dan Shipper?

  That's also probably true. Yeah. Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, cool. So like, yeah, the agent pushes this like there's so much stuff in here that I would never write or care about. If I got this, like, say, say I built something, like, say, I tried to ship something to prod and Dan, like, you were reviewing it, and then you sent this back to me. Like a version of this for like stuff I should have fixed. I would probably scan the headlines to like loosely see what this thing is. And then I would ask my claw to summarize it for me. And actually, there's been a lot of that now and how we work of like, okay, the agents are making big docs. It even applies to like the open claw guide that that you worked on with Willie the other day of like, I didn't read that whole thing. I had my agent recap it for me.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  And for something like that, that's what I want to do. But when you write your like essay on like the future of agent native architecture, I do want to sit down and read it. And it's going to be like, it feels a little binary in my head, but I think it will keep expanding into more of a spectrum in that range of of what is what.

• 28:30Dan Shipper?

  I definitely agree. I think that there's a lot of there's a lot of writing that is more on the information transfer end of things and less on the storytelling and like personal experience and like vibe end of things. That is probably better read by an agent. If it's if it's pure information transfer, because it's it's a little bit like in the matrix where you like, I know Kung Fu, you know? Like, that's kind of the experience that like having your agent like read a proof doc is is like, I know Kung Fu now. And.

• 29:03Dan Shipper?

  It's just harder like you you actually don't need to know Kung Fu if your agent knows it. And you can save your brain for things that you're good at.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  I want to show my the the proof experience that I just had.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Because

• 29:20Speaker 02

  I think it kind of highlights like the collaboration between like two humans and two agents. So this is like a little bit meta because I wrote a proof doc about how or I didn't write it. I had Codex write a proof doc about exploring the idea of adding a dashboard to proof. So that anytime you make a new proof or somebody shares a proof with you, it saves into like a place that you can go so that you can see all your proof documents.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  I have zero idea how to code, by the way.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  I literally can write CSS and HTML.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  So I like basically went back and forth with Codex a bunch and was like, okay, put this into a proof doc. And then it made this proof doc. You can see the only thing in this entire document that has been edited by a human is Dan came in here and commented. So basically what happened was I had Codex write this proof doc. I went to our proof channel on Slack and I said, and I dropped in the link and I said, R2C2, which is Dan's

• 30:34Speaker 02

  plus one to check it out and to let him, let me know what he thinks. R2C2 knows Dan really well and gave a bunch of feedback, all of which was like really accurate.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  And and then I think Dan on the side was like, R2C2, like make those comments and make those updates. It made those updates. And then Dan came in here, reviewed it. He added a couple of comments. So you can see our proof does great commenting and agents can read the comments. So Dan commented on here. I went through like I made a couple more comments. You can see on the left side from the blue that like this is basically all agent written.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's one comment on this. I told Codex, go back in there, read the comments.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  And then update the plan. It did that. And then I told Codex to execute on that plan and it did.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  So. I mean, that is like just sort of a loop that is kind of on repeat now. At at every where you make up, you make a plan, you send that plan to the the product owner's agent. The product owner's agent does a review, suggests stuff, because you can, agents can suggest stuff and proof. It does that, then goes to the their owner, who owns the product, in this case is Dan. Says, hey, Dan, I did that. I made it some edits. Can you review? Dan reviews, gives a thumbs up, and then I go back and I I do it, because this is like my feature and proof.

• 32:15Dan Shipper?

  It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's like I saw that come in and then I talked with R2 a little bit about it. And I just had R2 write you a little letter at the top, being like, here's what I like and here's what I don't like. And then a technical appendix at the bottom, being like. Here's how I would implement this. And then that let you take Codex and have Codex just like redo the whole thing. And what you ended up building was way more on target with what we might actually use. And it's pretty cool that you're just like submitting PRs. And I've not looked at the, I've not looked at PR yet, so it's possible. Uh, it's possible we need to, we need to start over. And that one's a big feature. But it's, it's a whole new world, like that you're submitting PRs and that I can even build this.

• 32:56Dan Shipper?

  Like, this is a very, very complex app that I just did in my spare time in between meetings. And.

• 33:04Dan Shipper?

  And and not only am I building it like yours many PRs, like Kieran's many PRs, the mean submitting PRs, it becoming this like collaborative thing that we're all contributing to. Just a totally different way of building products that I'm really excited about.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  And it's the exact type of writing that like makes so much more sense to be summarized by agents to flow in between the three of you rather than any human reading the whole thing. Like, I think, like you said, Dan, like, we're all people who care a lot about writing and good writing, the quality of it, the production of it, the consumption of it, and that's like something to be protected. But when it comes to something like this, this is about information and ideas and both like accelerating how you distill them, accelerating how you implement them is is like essential to to where we're headed. And I like, it makes me so excited for how this works and also like what what is still

• 34:03Speaker 01

  valued and protected and kind of like the the other kind of writing, right? Like, to me, they're like, it's, I think it's easy when you think about this stuff, but don't practice it, to think that they're in conflicts with each other and that one's going to take away the other one. And then when you practice it, you're like, this is actually a very different thing. They're like totally like separate from each other.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Would you, Austin or Dan or Karen, would you write, would you write anything that's not a plan or something that's like, I don't want to say throwaway, but like kind of throwaway? Like, it doesn't have a like a long lifespan in proof? Or would you go back to like docs or Notion for that?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  I'll show you, I'll show you one example. So like, I'm, I'm trying to write this thing for Saturday. That's like an essay about a dinner I had at Squirrel, this like restaurant in LA. And so to get there, it's like a bunch of texts between me and my agent to push to this proof doc. And I like having these three separate like sections.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  And by texting, you're like literally like iMessaging?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm iMessaging my, my claw because I have these ideas. I actually get most of my ideas when I'm like, when I'm out on a run. And so after I'm done running, I'll just like text everything so I don't forget it so they don't escape me. And I like having these three different sections where it's like, give me this like bank of notes I can go look at so I don't forget stuff. Give me a outline of ideas to write into if I want to. And then like, Maybe you can draft it for me, but I actually only let the agent draft for me if I monologue into it. Because then I'm like, it feels like it's like 70 to 90% my words that I'll use our speech to text to a monologue.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  So that I can see it. And then my process here, which I have started doing in proof is I either like rewrite every line. Or I'm like, okay, I can like see the essay now. It's actually very helpful to see it. This is a lot of what Spiral does to our like writing partner. And then I'll either like start fresh or I'll just copy paste the outline into somewhere new to get it. But using my agents and proof to get here. One, speeds up creative writing for me. And two, I think does make it stronger and better and easier. I do sit here sometimes with some like uncomfortable feelings of like, oh, am I like taking a line, the AI added in?

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And I, Dan, you and I talked about this, like a future version of this that I would love is if it identified what I monologued in. Because to me, those are my words, right? Like if I monologue something into the agent and it uses it, those are my words and I want to know. But I've started doing this a lot more.

• 36:41Dan Shipper?

  I would love a little bit like if you go, if you hover over that gutter, it just like popped out and said like, you know, from a, from, you know, monologue or whatever. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to do there eventually, once we kind of nail the most basic experience. This is, I love this. This is super cool. I love that you're using it for this. It's so creative and, and interesting. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for sharing. Awesome.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:04Dan Shipper?

  Kieran, what's on your mind? What are you thinking about?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. What I like about this is like clearly we need something to share stuff. And, and this is a step and I like how you build something very more, more complex agent native, like the way. And you realize actually we need to like, just go back to like, it's just writing and collaboration. And for me, it really feels like it's, it's like a sketch pad or something like that where I brainstorm something. I like, ah, I don't know, like just put it there and then I text it to you or you send something to me. And you can kind of share thoughts or nuggets with each other. I like it for that a lot.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  One other way I like it for is when I do a brainstorm with the Compound Engineering plugin. There's a step called brainstorm. At the end, it will say share to proof. You just do that and then it will automatically share to proof and you have a shareable link. I run in T-Max over SSH, so technically, thanks then. Then I can just click the link and it works. So that is nice. I can share it with people, but also I can just open it, go in, make suggestions in like an actual document. And then just tell the agents, hey, made some comments, go work on them. So I also like it for iteration with the agent itself, just for myself.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  My question always with these things is like, yeah, but we have markdown files, right? Isn't this just a markdown file? And we have GitHub. Isn't this just a Gist or isn't it just an issue? We have Linear, we have Notion, we have all these tools and they're pretty good CLIs and everything like that as well. And, and what I like about proof is, yes, we have all of these, but there are all these commentations around them. What a GitHub issue should be or like what a Notion page should be. And you don't want to like contaminate everything. So I love actually that we don't have a place where you can see all your proof documents. So I would even argue we shouldn't have an index with all your proof documents. Because the point is that if you think it's important, you keep that link somewhere.

• 39:19Speaker 03

  And proof's job is not to organize documents. Proof's job is to communicate about writing and about ideas and about where it comes from. And, and I think it's very strong, like, and it's super seamless, like just that it's so seamless to share it with your agent. And, and we don't know what's next, but like the cool part is like Austin saying, yeah, I want to see what I monologued into. And like, I, I also like going into document C A. This was written by Brandon, this was this agent, these were the, like the history maybe on the document. I'm like, well, let's see what we need to add and let's add that. So for me, it's very exciting because we have all these things.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  We all feel these pains and they're like, we're just figuring out a new way to do this. And I like that it's so bare bones. Yeah.

• 40:13Dan Shipper?

  Totally. It's, uh, I was very inspired by Naveen who runs Monologue where it's like, it's a simple product that does one thing super well. And I think that's, that's what I was trying to do here. And it's actually surprisingly hard to make this, even though it's simple. Um.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  It's very hard, yes.

• 40:32Dan Shipper?

  Yeah, it's hard. And, uh, Kieran, I lo- I love that you're, you're kind of picking up the, the lightness of it is what makes it good. Like, you don't have to think about anything. There's no, where does this go? Or anything like that? It just works. And that's what we're, that's what we're after.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  I still wanna see your inbox feature, Brendan, but I'm just arguing that.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  I totally appreciate that, like, cuz you're right. And I have like five proof docs open right now. And I really wanna just like a quick place, like go to be like, yep, that's it.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Makes sense, yeah. Maybe you promote, uh, proof documents to like a special place, like proof documents are always there, but if you create an account suddenly you can say, put this in my special blah, blah, blah, or something, yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  I like, um, I, I tried to make a, a big like growth strategy plan in proof. I think actually I was sending it, uh, Dan to you and Brendan as a Notion doc and a proof doc, cuz I like couldn't really craft it or figure it out, but I liked going back and forth in proof. And the thing that felt intuitive to me was like, let me and either one or multiple of my agents jam on this like campaign strategy and proof. And then when it feels kind of like ready, what, uh, right now I'm, I'm like using the CLI to move it to Notion, but I think like that's what makes sense to me is like, let me actually one-click it into Notion for us, for Notion, because that's where like our source of truth for planning and information lives. And it's like, okay, now it's like

• 41:58Speaker 01

  ready for that. It's actually ready to move from lightweight to heavyweight. It's ready to move from age, from agent-based to like calendar-integrated. And that's like, not with this, that's a much more complex product and probably unnecessary for what this project is. But like, that's when it's ready for that. And that started to make more sense to me.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Which leads me to ask you, Dan, this is gonna be an open source product. Does that mean that people can submit PRs or that they can just? Fork the repo and do your thing.

• 42:27Dan Shipper?

  Both, both. But I think the the most interesting thing is ideally you can integrate this into whatever app you want to build. We already have this internally. We have Spiral. Spiral needs its own like live document editor. And this is like just a really easy version that Marcus can just like throw into Spiral.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  It's in component engineering.

• 42:50Dan Shipper?

  It's in component engineering. Oh, well, the hosted version is in component engineering, but I think like, you know, for any kind of builder, A, it should be, it could just be a good example of this is what you can make and how you might want to architect things. If you're if you're vibe coding, I know if you're a professional engineer, you might look at it and be like, holy shit, I can't believe this works.

• 43:11Dan Shipper?

  But B, hopefully, if you're if you're making any kind of app that has a text editor in it, which I think anybody that has a claw right now is running into this is like, I need a text editor for whatever app I'm making. Hopefully, it's just like a really easy drop in thing that you can use. So

• 43:31Dan Shipper?

  that's proof, everybody. I'm psyched that we got it out. And I'm psyched for the future. And thank you all for joining and talking to me about it.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 43:43Dan Shipper?

  Thank you so much. Thank you. See ya.

• 43:53Speaker 04

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• 44:25Speaker 04

  So do yourself a favor, hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life. And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with you.