How to Make Anyone Instantly Like You (Without Saying a Word) | Ed Mylett

What if the secret to getting people to like you, trust you, and say YES has almost nothing to do with what you say and EVERYTHING to do with how you make them feel? In this powerful mashup episode, I'm bringing together some of the greatest minds in communication, persuasion, and human connection to reveal one of the most important skills you can ever develop: the ability to make people feel truly seen, heard, and understood. I'm joined by Charles Duhigg, Zoe Chance, Eric Thomas, Lewis Howes, Chris Voss, and Dean Graziosi to break down what separates people who struggle to connect from those who can walk into any room and instantly build trust and influence. Whether you're trying to grow a business, close a deal, strengthen your marriage, or become a better leader, these conversations will completely change how you interact with the people around you. Charles Duhigg shares an incredible story about a struggling CIA agent who became one of the agency's greatest recruiters, not by becoming a better persuader, but by learning to connect emotionally. He also reveals a powerful three-step communication technique called "looping for understanding" that can transform even your most difficult conversations. Zoe Chance breaks down the science of charisma and why people make decisions emotionally first and justify them logically second. She reveals that the two most important ingredients of charisma are connection and confidence, and that you don't have to be the loudest or most impressive person in the room to become the most influential. Eric Thomas brings a perspective that every leader needs to hear: you cannot truly influence people you haven't taken the time to understand. He explains why the greatest communicators stop focusing on what THEY want to say and start discovering what other people actually need. In my conversation with Lewis Howes, I share the three principles that have helped me build extraordinary success: identifying your greatest gifts, genuinely caring about people, and becoming obsessed with mastering your craft. I also open up about how growing up with an alcoholic father taught me to read people's emotions and how some of your greatest strengths can actually come from your deepest pain. Former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss reveals why listening is one of the most powerful negotiation tools in the world. He shares a remarkably simple technique called "mirroring" that can get people to open up by repeating just a few words they've said. I even share how using one of Chris's techniques completely changed a heated negotiation in my own life. And Dean Graziosi takes these principles into one of the most important areas of our lives: relationships. He opens up about the mistakes he made in his first marriage, why keeping score destroys intimacy, and how learning to experience love through GIVING rather than receiving transformed his marriage, his happiness, and even his business success. Here's what I want you to understand: People don't remember every word you say. They remember how you made them FEEL. I've learned that being a great communicator isn't about dominating conversations, having the perfect response, or proving how intelligent you are. It's about being PRESENT. It's about listening without interrupting, asking better questions, matching someone's emotional energy, and making them feel like they're the most important person in the world at that moment. If you want to become more influential, build deeper relationships, and create opportunities you never imagined possible, stop trying so hard to be interesting and start becoming genuinely INTERESTED. Key Takeaways: The secret to instant connection: Why making people feel heard and understood is more powerful than having the perfect thing to say. Charles Duhigg's three-step communication technique: How "looping for understanding" creates trust and deeper conversations. The science of charisma with Zoe Chance: Why connection and confidence matter more than being outgoing or naturally charming. Eric Thomas on authentic influence: Why understanding what people need is the foundation of powerful communication. My three principles for building success: Discover your greatest gifts, genuinely care about people, and become obsessed with excellence. Chris Voss's FBI negotiation technique: How mirroring someone's last few words can unlock conversations and defuse conflict. Why emotions drive decisions: How people connect emotionally before they respond to facts and logic. Dean Graziosi's relationship breakthrough: Why keeping score destroys connection and giving love can transform your relationships. The power of nonverbal communication: How eye contact, body language, facial expressions, and matching someone's energy build instant rapport. How to become unforgettable: Why acknowledgment, thoughtful questions, and following up after conversations make people feel truly valued. I want you to walk away from this episode with a completely different understanding of influence. The greatest communicators aren't the people who make everyone notice THEM. They're the people who make everyone else feel IMPORTANT. And when you master that skill, you won't just become more persuasive. You'll become a better spouse, parent, friend, leader, and human being. Stop trying to impress people. Start making an IMPACT on them. That's how you build relationships that change your life. 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈⁠ → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ← ➡️ ⁠INSTAGRAM ⁠➡️ ⁠FACEBOOK⁠ ➡️ ⁠LINKEDIN⁠ ➡️ ⁠X ⁠➡️ ⁠WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Speaker 00

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• 1:28Speaker 00

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• 2:08Speaker 00

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• 2:23Speaker 01

  This is the Ed Mylett Show.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Now on with the show. Welcome back to Max Out, everybody. You know, we talk a lot on this program about communication. And one of the things we've not covered that is such a critical part of communication, and maybe more important even what you say, is your ability to listen to people. It's a huge part of communication. You know, I've taught you before that people don't respond to what they hear or see. They respond to how they feel when they interact with you. And one of the best ways to make somebody feel good is that they feel listened to and that they feel heard. And it's one of the skills that I struggle with the most, which is why I'm so excited to cover this with you today.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Because quite frankly, it's something that I've struggled with myself, is my ability to just be present and to listen to people. And so like many of the shows, I'm excited to teach these things to you for your own benefit, but it also helps me in owning this material. And frankly, anything you teach to people, you end up owning more yourself. And so very, very excited to cover this with you here today. And like I said, it's not something I've been very good at my entire life as being a great listener. So I want to get right into it. And what caused me to do the show today is really two things. I had someone join me on my jet a few weeks ago on a pretty long flight. And there was a group of people, but one particular guy who's an entrepreneur. And I won't say who he is. But he spent a three-hour flight with me on my jet. So he spent about three hours with me, about a foot and a half from me.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  And for three straight hours, he did not ask me one question about myself. He did not listen to one thing I had to say, didn't ask me for any advice. And he talked about himself for three hours. And this is somebody prior to that flight that I really liked. I was struck, and so were other people in the flight than when they landed. And I don't mean that I'm a big deal or anything like that. But they were shocked by a rising entrepreneur wouldn't take advantage of the time of being with me to ask me questions. I think most of you, if we spent three hours together, you'd probably want to ask me a question or two. And he did not ask me one single question. And he talked about himself and his life and his background and what he had achieved and what he was going to achieve and what he was good at and all those things. And it was probably true. But I found myself when the flight was over, quite honestly,

• 4:38Speaker 00

  not liking him quite as much as I did before the flight. Because people don't like to hear about you all the time. People want to feel heard. They want to feel listened to. And he didn't do any of that the entire flight. Plus the fact, he didn't learn anything that flight. So remember this. I know there's the old adage that you have two eyes and two ears and one mouth for a reason, and you ought to use them in that ratio. But really, you should even use the, you should use your mouth even less. And so the, two things happened on that flight. One, he didn't get anything out of it. He didn't learn anything. And two, it made the people around him, quite frankly, not care for him to the extent they could have because he's a really good guy. But he just talked the entire time. And I don't think he did it out of ego. I think he did it because he was nervous. And so that's one thing I want you to check in the very beginning. When you get nervous, I do, when you get nervous, do you begin to talk more?

• 5:23Speaker 00

  One of the great things about my show is that I've had to learn to listen more. And people say all the time, one of the reasons they like my shows, I seem so excited and so interested in what people are saying. Because I sincerely am. I've learned that being a great listener is easier than being a great talker. Because being a great listener, the pressure's off you to come up with the perfect thing to say, right? The perfect response, the perfect phrase that sounds smarter or better than somebody. You don't have to do that when you're a great listener. And people's favorite topic, number one, remember this. People's favorite topic is themselves. They love to talk about themselves. One of the things I've found over and over in my life, and my friends get a kick out of this, but when I play golf, you know, you'll spend four or five hours with somebody when you're on a golf course. And oftentimes, my friends will tell me, man, Dave really liked you, Ed.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Like, he really enjoyed the time with you, Eddie, so much. But he doesn't know anything about you. And one of the reasons they like me so much is I don't talk about myself. I love to talk about them. I love to ask questions about them. And so it's interesting, when we're done, they really, really like me and they know nothing about me. And they wonder why they like me. But the reason they like me is I allowed them to talk about themselves. Plus the fact, the way I look at life, I already know about me. I'm not going to learn anything else by talking about myself. I'm going to learn by asking them questions about them. And so I think being a great listener has lots of benefits. One, people will like you more. Two, you're going to learn more. Three, it takes the pressure off you. And so listening skills are so critical. And even as we cover this, you may say, I'm a great listener. Well, let's go through some things and see how good we all are.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Because even on my show, I'll be honest with you. I watch replays back of my show and I interrupt too much. I jump in too much. I finish people's sentences for them too often. And that's an ego thing, almost like I think I can say it better than them. In fact, I'm so bad at it, I'll be honest with you. Before every show, I tell them, hey, this isn't like any other interview you've been on before. I'm going to interrupt you. You can interrupt me. We'll make it like a real conversation. And all of my guests always politely say, wonderful, that's great. I want you to cut me off. But the truth is, that's not how a great conversation goes. It's not two people interrupting each other all the time. It's one person talking, another person listening until they're finished speaking, and then responding. So this is something I'm not very good at. And so I teach this to you today, not being critical of you, but knowing that it's something I'm going to have to get better at myself. So here we go.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Let's talk about some critical steps of being a great listener. You know, there's this thing that's out there too that says, hey, when you're speaking to a woman, she doesn't want you to solve her problems. She just wants you to listen to her. You've all heard this before, right? Men, that's different. Let me tell you, none of this stuff is gender specific. It's not true at all. Nobody wants you to solve their problem necessarily, not right away. Everybody wants to be heard. Everybody wants to be listened to. Everybody likes to talk about themselves. And so just please remember that. This is not gender specific. Men and women aren't different on this. Men like to be heard as well. Men like to be important. Men like to be funny. Men like to be interesting. Men want to share their ideas and thoughts and worries and fears with other people, just like women do. So remember this.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  You don't always want to just go solve their problem right away. Next thing is this. Always be asking people for understanding so that when they say something, when they're finished speaking, ask them, so what I think you're saying is, or what I'm hearing is, or clarify this for me. Because this shows how deeply you were listening when you ask for clarification. And what I'm hearing is, by the way, when you say the sentence to somebody, so what I'm hearing is, that lets them know you were hearing them, that you were listening to them. So as I was listening to you, this is what I understood. Help me understand. Clarify for me. Because this gives a deeper sense you were listening to somebody. The next thing is what I'm doing right now with you. Make eye contact. Look right at them when you're talking to them. Don't be distracted. Don't look around. Don't look at your phone.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  The way you tell me I'm important is by looking at me. I have a significant person in my life. And one of the things that drives me crazy is I'm always saying, are you listening to me? And she's always like, yes, of course I'm listening to you. And I'm like, well, could you look at me and let me know you're listening to me? I'm not going to say who that is either. But we all have that person in our life who, they're listening, but they don't know to let us know they're listening. One of the best ways you can do that is by just looking right at somebody. Nodding with them when they say something you agree with, right? Smiling when it's funny, like giving a normal response and you'd say, "Well, this is basic stuff." You'd be surprised how often you look away, how often you're not focused. The next thing is, check your body language. Are you leaning in? Are you welcoming? Are you warm?

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Or are your arms crossed when you're talking to somebody? See, I have this tendency, when I'm really listening, I get really drawn in. One of the things I do is I get very serious. And I almost begin to grimace and make a face because I'm so interested, I'm in deep thought. But what happens is, my visual on my face doesn't indicate to them that I'm enjoying what they're saying or that I'm listening very deeply. So make sure that your facial expression, this may seem basic, but your facial expression matches the moment, matches the emotion. Some other people do something different. They're always smiling when something very serious is being said. That's not an appropriate facial expression and it looks like you're not listening

• 10:26Speaker 00

  or it disconnects the connection, if you will, no pun intended, between you and that person. So check your facial expressions. Make sure you're looking at them. Check your physiology and your body language. The next thing is that when someone's talking, the highest form of listening is to let them finish their sentence. Do not interrupt them. Do not interrupt them. I do this all the time when I get excited. "Oh, really?" Almost like, "I want to jump in and get my point in before they're finished." Or, "I want to sound smarter." Or, "If I don't say it now, I'm going to forget to say it." Probably the number one weakness in my ability in listening to people is my desire and tendency to jump in before they finish their thought. And what that says is, my thoughts more important than yours. My needs are more important than you. I'm done listening to what you're saying.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Be careful to say things like this when they're talking. Uh huh, right, got it, yeah, wow, mm. Because what that does is, it's called a nudge. You're nudging them along verbally to finish. It's like, "Hurry up, I got something to say." Uh huh, right. And that nudges them verbally. I used to think that those were things I was saying that confirmed what they were saying, but it was really, what was really happening is I would nudge. Better is that when they're done, you say, "Wow," or "That's interesting." Or you at least respond when they're finished. All responses are wonderful once they're finished speaking, but don't do the verbal nudges to get them to speed up and finish. Don't finish sentences for people next. It's another thing I do. They'll be saying something and they'll be struggling for a word and I give them the word. Let them find the word.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  It's their word, not yours. And you're stealing control of the conversation from them and making them feel like you're not listening to them. Don't finish their sentences. Don't give them better words. Don't talk over them. Don't interrupt them. These are all things that we all kind of do from time to time when we get excited. I'm not suggesting if someone does make an incredible point that you don't begin to laugh or jump in. When it's your pattern with somebody, you're not being a good listener. Also, use acknowledgement statements when they're done. "I agree, that's wonderful, that's amazing, congratulations." Like, do things like that that acknowledge what they said because when you acknowledge what they've said, they feel open. That's an invitation to say more. But when you don't acknowledge what they've said, you don't give a statement to it when they're done, then they don't feel comfortable continuing to speak.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  And so, ask probative questions. So when you ask somebody, for example, if they're new to you, "Do you have kids?" They say, "Yes, I do." A follow-up question is, "What are their names? What are their ages?" Begin to learn the volley of follow-up questions. The more specific questions you ask, the more, what I call, follow-up questions, the more and more interested you appear to somebody. Let me give you one more huge thing in being a great listener. Where appropriate, you touch somebody. So when they're talking, if they're leaning in, it's an emotion, and you grab their hand or you touch their knee. Or when they're finished speaking, you shake their hand or hug them or pat them on the shoulder. And by the way, this has to be appropriate, right? Especially when you're talking about different genders. Be very careful of this. But one of the ways you anchor in, "I'm listening to you," is with a touch. It anchors in the emotion.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  And so, I'll often be careful when I shake their hand of touching them or touching their shoulder or hugging them when we're done or patting them on the shoulder or knee or something like that that just acknowledges, "I'm hearing you." If it's a guy, maybe it's a fist pump or a high five, right? But it acknowledges the listening and it encourages them to continue. So that is a little bit gender-specific, but I just want to reinforce to you that that just shows you're listening. Then there's a series of questions I think you should ask yourself, just sort of a checklist of whether or not you're a great listener. So ask yourself this, in conversations you have, do you intend to do more or less talking than the other person? This is a huge one for me, especially in business or even in social as well. Do I talk more than them in the conversation?

• 14:06Speaker 00

  If I've come out of a good conversation, I've talked less than the other person has talked. Man, is this a difficult one for me? Particularly when you're in a position of authority with somebody, when they're asking you a lot of questions and you're just answering. Make sure you're feeding questions back to them. A great conversation is at least a 50/50 split, but I think the best of them, they've talked more than me. That way, I think I've given them more of my emotion and caring and concern than they've given to me. So ask yourself, what are your ratios in your average conversations? This is true, by the way, in everything. In your business meetings, in your sales meetings, with your children, with your spouse, with your friends, with someone you're comfortable with for 30 years and someone you've met for 30 seconds. Who talks more in your exchanges?

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Number two, when you don't understand what they're saying, do you ask them questions? This is such a huge form of connection with people. Oftentimes, if we don't understand something somebody said, we don't ask them a question about it because it may make us look not so smart or not very prepared. But the way that you really indicate, "I'm listening to you," is, "Hey, can you help me understand this?" And you ask for understanding. "I didn't understand what that word meant." Or, "I'm not sure who Bill is that you're referring to." "Bill who?" Right? When you begin to ask questions of understanding, the connection deepens with that person. Another question to ask yourself is, when you're in a conversation with somebody, do you often try to figure out what they're going to say before they finish saying it? This is an indication that you're not present with them when you're listening and you're trying to get them to finish speaking

• 15:34Speaker 00

  so that you can jump in and say your very important thing. So don't be trying to project forward what they're about to say because that means you're not listening in the present and there's a disconnect when you do that. So ask yourself this. Do I often or ever try to project forward what they're going to say before they've said it? Next, do you find yourself just not paying attention when somebody's speaking to you? I mean, maybe you are looking around. Or do you find yourself just thinking about other things when people speak to you? This is a value issue. It really means that these other things are more important to you than what this person is saying. And when you begin to build a habit and a pattern of truly not paying attention. One of the reasons I enjoy my interviews so much, and quite frankly, my connection with my guests are so long-lasting after the program, is because I am so interested in what they're saying.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  And I'm interested in what all people are saying. If you were my Uber driver, I think my Uber drivers would tell you, "Man, this guy is overly interested in what I'm saying." And my cameraman, Mike, is nodding right now because he's been in enough Ubers with me to know. I talk to everybody. I think people are gifts and I believe the way you open them up is by asking them questions. And so, I don't care if you're a server in a restaurant, my Uber driver, a guest on my show who's worth a billion dollars or the top athletes in the world. My pattern of conversations with people is very similar. I'm interested in what they're saying sincerely. And I think you should just begin to ask yourself that question. Are you sincerely interested in what they're saying? Because they can feel this intuitively. Another thing to ask yourself is, in a conversation, can you intuitively sort of tell the difference between what somebody is saying and what they really feel?

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Why is this so important? Because oftentimes, people wear social masks with us, don't they? And they'll tell us things, frankly, that just aren't true or don't completely confirm the way they're feeling about something. And so, a deeper, deep level of listening is you can almost feel what they really sense about something or what they're really feeling, not just listening to the words. This is a way of connecting with someone. They don't even know you're connecting with them, but their words don't match their feelings. And when you can connect with their real feeling, man, have you not only got influence over them, but most importantly, you've got a connection with them. The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function of your business needs

• 17:45Speaker 00

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• 18:30Speaker 00

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• 19:14Speaker 00

  I'm wearing one now and I get a ton of compliments when I wear them on the podcast and when I speak. So, find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/ed for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q.U.I.N.C.E. com/ed. Next one. In conversations with people, do you find yourself finishing their sentences or supplying them with better words? Don't do that. I have this mistake sometimes where I finish their sentence for them, right? And I think, "Oh, we're connecting, I'm with you." That's not what it does. It disconnects you from somebody when you use a better word or a different one. They say, "You know what? I really was just, um, just really sad." "Oh, you were just really bummed out then, huh?"

• 19:58Speaker 00

  You've rephrased something for them. Another way of listening the wrong way, I think, is, do you sometimes only hear the facts and details they're giving and not listening for the emotion behind it? Just listening for the emotion from somebody gives you a much deeper level of connection with them than just listening to the facts and figures. This is important, especially in sales, when someone's giving you facts and figures back. If you can connect with the emotion of it, big, big difference. Lastly, do you struggle with seeing things from that person's perspective? Like really connecting with them, really empathizing with them, really believing in them? This is so important when you're listening to somebody is to really try to connect with their point of view. Because the way you help influence me is if I can meet you where you are, I can take you where we need to go.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  But if I can't meet you where you are by letting you use your words, your emotions, listening for the emotion behind it, really listening for your point of view. Maybe you sell cars, for example, this person's had a really traumatic time buying cars in the past. They're very skeptical about it. You've got to be able to see it from their point of view. This is true with getting your children to behave differently or interacting with your spouse. It's critical that you meet with them where they are and take them where you're going. So why are all these skills so important, especially from a business perspective? Because this has been very detailed, very granular. The reason it's so important is because to really influence somebody, they have to trust you. And the way you do that is by building rapport with them. So one of the things I used to do incorrectly is I brought all this massive energy. You ever hear people say, "You gotta bring the most energy."

• 21:26Speaker 00

  The highest energy person does win. But the way that you really influence somebody is by connecting with them and listening, and then matching them physically and their tonality as well. So when I talk back with somebody, I listen for their tonality. I listen to the volume of their voice, the pace of their voice, how they speak. I begin to try to match by listening to them, the words they use, the tonality they use, and the volume they use. If they use a certain set of words from time to time, if you were listening closely, if you then use some of those same words back to them, you connect. So this is a form of influence. If this person sort of repeatedly use the words literally, literally, literally, you've heard that word three or four times.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  When I'm then gonna be saying my stuff back to them to influence them, I'm gonna use the word literally. This is a connection word. It's part of the words they love. When I use words they love, I can influence them. This is a huge thing in influence, in closing, in moving people to make decisions that are best for themselves. If they talk at a pace like this, just like I'm talking at this pace right now, and I'm talking like this very fast, I break connection and we can't have rapport. So I want to listen for the pace that they speak at, the cadence, also the tonality. You know, they talk kind of hunched over and quiet. I wanna talk like that and a little bit better. If they talk at a certain volume, if they talk like this, "I don't wanna talk like this." The same time if they talk like this, "I don't wanna talk like this."

• 22:51Speaker 00

  I wasn't listening for their volume level. We wanna match their volume level. And so when you begin to match and mirror like this, use the words they use, just a few of them. Don't overcook it. But when they've got three or four words they use and use one or two of those words, I can promise you, you connect. When you speak at a similar pace to them in tonality, you connect. When you speak at a similar volume to them, you connect. If there are hand gestures, as I'm listening and observing them, they use. If they're constantly folding their hands like this, if you're on audio, I'm folding my hands right now. They pray, or they have their hands down, or they do some sort of a gesture with their hands or shoulders. I will oftentimes, I'm watching, this isn't manipulation, this is connecting with people. I'm listening so closely, I can see their physical moves as well.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  If there's emotions I hear them go to often, which is regret or sadness, let's just say. They keep telling me stories about things they regret or they're sad of. I will share with them one of the things I regret and bring them with me. If they talk about, you know, past achievements, or they talk about, you know, some material things, then I'll talk about some material things or past achievements. I'm listening for them to give me the language, the words, the tonality that I can move them with. And this is also true in every area, but particularly in influence when we're trying to persuade people. So the reason this is so important is people have go-to words. And so if you're really listening closely, not only are you connecting better with me, but they will tell you the three or four words they use a lot. Every human being does this, by the way. You do it too. You have a few words you use more than most.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  And if someone's really listening closely, they can hear what those words are. And if I use one or two of those words back with you, I've connected with you on a deeper level. The next thing that's huge, by the way, in listening, is to repeat back to them what you believe they've just said. Repeat back to them what you've heard. This is what I've heard. This is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm listening to. This is true when I'm interacting with my children. Before I just tell them I wanna do something, I listen to them and I say, "Here's what daddy's hearing." Is this true? That's really been bothering you regularly? So when I'm listening to them, they know I'm listening. Use acknowledgement statements. It's not done enough. People love to be complimented. I love to be complimented. You do. So after I've listened to you, after you've told me what you need to tell me, I want you to learn this sentence, everybody, right now. I just wanna acknowledge you.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  I think you're amazing. I think you're incredible. Thank you for sharing this with me. That's awesome. And it might be with guys, you don't say, "Hey, bro, that was cool. Thanks, man." "Man, I always loved connecting with you, brother. You're my brother," right? Always do a connection statement. Always do an acknowledgement. "That's why I love you, man." Whatever it is, you know, people talk differently depending on who they're around. Someone you've known 30 years is different than someone you've known 30 minutes. But the fact of the matter is, I always do connection. "Man, I love you, brother. Thank you so much. That's why we're so close, man. That's why I love being around you." Whatever it is, you begin to say acknowledgement statements to somebody because it connects the conversation. It's what I call a post-frame. After someone said something, the last thing I want you to focus on, children, spouse, business, brand-new person in a social environment, or someone you've known 30 years, acknowledge them. "Thank you. That was awesome. Great meeting you."

• 25:49Speaker 00

  If they're new, right? I get out of nowhere, I go, "Man, I enjoyed our time so much. Thank you." That's post-framing what we just talked about. If it's someone I've been with a long time, say, "Hey, brother, man, that's why I love you, bro. That's why I love you." And then other people, it's like, "You always just inspire me. You fire me up. Thank you. I love how vulnerable you are." Whatever it is, I just wanna acknowledge you. I just wanna tell you how much I appreciate you. I just wanna thank you. I just wanna tell you you're awesome. I just wanna tell you I believe in you. Do an acknowledgement statement that post-frames what you've covered. And I promise you, you've now put a bow around being one of the great listeners that anyone will ever be around. It's gonna make you one of the most well-liked and most influential people that you know. And by the way, isn't that what we're after in life? Being well-liked and being influential?

• 26:31Speaker 00

  And that usually comes down not to being an incredible orator, but being an incredible listener. And these are the skills, and these skills matter in every area, in building a church, in building a Boy Scout troop, in building a softball team, in building a business, in building any family, anything in life is that we wanna be able to be liked and have influence. And that always comes down to what we make people feel. And more than anything, people feel great when they've been able to talk about themselves. But most importantly, they feel listened to, connected with, and acknowledged. Listened to, connected with, and acknowledged. This is how we have influence over people. This is also how we make a difference in people's lives. The final piece of the puzzle is this, is that because of social media, we have such an advantage.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  And I just wanna tell you something that doesn't happen enough, but when it has happened for you, man, does it feel like the connection's even deeper. It doesn't matter what it is, is that when your separation from that person takes place and they leave you, especially if they don't live with you, whether that be a client, a best friend, a new friend, or someone you just met. Following up a little while later with a text that just says, "I enjoyed our time so much. I enjoyed listening to you. Thanks for sharing this with me." And maybe repeating back to them what you heard a little bit of. And when you do that, it cements them. Not only did he listen to me, or she listened to me in my presence, but they continued to listen to me after I was gone. They continued to connect with me. And this extends the connection and deepens the connection.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  When after you physically separated, and even, by the way, if this communication happened by phone and you weren't physically with them, for you to follow up after a phone call with a text a few hours later that just says, "Man, I enjoyed the talk so much. Thanks for sharing that with me." Or, "Always love when we connect," or, "You always make me laugh," or, "I'm so glad we're new friends now. I feel like I've made a new friend." Whatever it is, you strengthen and deepen the connection with people by letting them know later, "Hey, I heard you. Hey, I listened to you." So not only doing great in their presence, but later confirming for them, "I was with you. I heard you. I enjoyed it. I wanna acknowledge you." Man, have you deepened the fact that you've listened to them. So, very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time. The first time he was on the show, I sought him out saying, "Please come on the show," because his book had made such an impact on me. And now he's got a new book out, by the way, before I introduce him, called Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And it's a topic, as you all know, that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot about it on the show. Except he's way more qualified than me. And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he's a renowned expert on habits. And also now, after reading his work, he's an expert on communication. So Charles Dewey, welcome back to the show.

• 29:19Charles Duhigg?

  Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is such a treat for me.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love you, brother. You're gonna listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I gotta tell you why I love your book so much. We were just talking about kids off camera.

• 29:31Charles Duhigg?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with. One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want them to have some work ethic, self-confidence. And if I could give them a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree. There's a, there's in the book, a lot of examples of that. There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one, because I want them to get the book, so I don't want to do the whole book. But give me one story from the book, this sort of illustrative of just, you thought one of the more interesting stories in the book. So they have an understanding, because what's great about the way Charles writes this book is that there's like points and tactics. And then I like the story to sort of reinforce it that may, and I, for me, facts tell, stories sell. I remember stories.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  And so I like the way that you weave these into the work.

• 30:19Charles Duhigg?

  And that's why there's so many stories in there is because it's, they're so much easier to remember. So one of my favorite stories is, is early in the book. It's about Jim Lawler, the CIA agent.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  So good.

• 30:28Charles Duhigg?

  So Jim, Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times. He, he's, he's awesome. He, um, he became a CIA officer when he was in his thirties and he wanted this so bad. He like, he struggled for the, like, he just ran after this so hard. It was like, he was desperate to be CIA officer. They accept him, they send him off to training, and then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets. And he finds out he's the worst recruiter on earth. Like literally, he would go to like parties and he's, and like he couldn't make conversation. He would like try and buddy up with people and they're like, you're a spy, aren't you? You're trying to get me to be a spy. They're like, I'm going to report you to the, to the authorities. You're going to get deported. So he's like freaking out because he's like, I'm terrible at this.

• 31:10Charles Duhigg?

  And then someone in his, in his office says, look, there's this woman coming into town. She's from the Middle East. She works for the Foreign Ministry. Why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there? So he bumps into her at a restaurant the next day, right? Bumps.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:23Charles Duhigg?

  And he introduces himself as an oil speculator, strikes up a conversation, takes her to lunch the next day. They start sightseeing together, sort of develops a little bit of a relationship. He goes and he says to his boss, I think I'm recruiting this woman. I think she's going to be an asset for us. And then he, and his boss is like, that's fantastic. I'm glad to hear it. He goes, he has dinner with this woman, Fatma, and he says, I'm not an oil speculator. I work for the CIA. Now Fatma had been telling him, she comes from a, he never told me which nation, but it's pretty obvious which one it is.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:55Charles Duhigg?

  She comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution. And so the, the fundamentalists have all taken over and she hates it. She's like, she's like, they're making women wear hijabs, they're telling us we can't go to college. I want to fight this, but I don't know how. And so Jim Lawler says to her, the most practical thing possible. He's like, we want the same thing you do. Like, we want, we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. Work for me for the CIA. And she grabs the table and starts shaking her head and she starts crying and she goes, no, no, I'm not going to do it. And just has a meltdown. And she says, they kill people in my country for doing this.

• 32:37Charles Duhigg?

  I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship. Because if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're going to think, I'm in the CIA. And she just, she just bolts. And Lawler's like, ah, I'm terrible at this. Like, I'm such a bad recruiter. So he goes back to his boss and he tells him what happened. His boss is like, dude, I already told Washington DC you recruited her as a spy. Like, like you're going to get fired if you can't close the deal on this. This is, this is your last chance. That's why we gave it to you. So Jim spends all this time trying to figure out, how do I, what do I do? And he, he keeps on calling Fatma and eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner. But a couple of nights before she's going to fly back home.

• 33:20Charles Duhigg?

  And she says yes, because he says he'd take her to a expensive restaurant. And he has a notebook full, full of ideas on how to convert her. And he knows none of them are going to work. Like, you cannot trick someone into taking a suicidal risk.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:37Charles Duhigg?

  Right? It's just not going to. So he goes to dinner and she's in a, she's really down because she's like, you know, I came to Europe. I thought I was going to learn something about how to, how to be more myself or how to change the world. And I'm just going home and I'm the same person. And what he starts to be, trying to do is cheer her up. He tells her little stories. He reminisces about when they, you know, went sightseeing together. And she just gets more and more glum. And finally dessert comes and they're kind of by themselves at the table. And Jim thinks to himself like, should I try to like recruit her again? And he's like, if I do that, she's literally going to stand up and walk away. So what he decides to do is he decides like, this isn't going to work. I'm giving up.

• 34:21Charles Duhigg?

  I'm just going to have a real conversation. I'm going to be honest. And he starts saying to her, look, I know how you feel because I feel exactly the same way. I like, I wanted this job my entire life and it turns out I'm terrible at it. I am so disappointed in myself. And I don't know how I'm going to go home and tell my dad that like I failed. I got fired by the CIA. And he talks this way. Now what he's doing, obviously, without even realizing it, is he's matching her.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  He's matching.

• 34:50Charles Duhigg?

  Right? She was, she was glum and he was trying to cheer her up. That's not matching.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:55Charles Duhigg?

  He was matching her and she's, she's listening to this and she starts crying. And he's like, I'm such a jerk. And in the CIA, you have to report every conversation. So he's going to have to write up a memo and he's like, those guys are going to fire me within seconds. Like, they're just going to laugh. And he reaches over and he pats her arm and he's like, I'm so sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. I am sorry. And she says, no, no, I think I can do this. And then, and he's so inexperienced. He actually, the first thing out of his mouth is like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like, you don't have to, like, because he wasn't trying to manipulate her. He was just trying to.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  He finally wasn't.

• 35:27Charles Duhigg?

  Yeah, he finally wasn't trying to manipulate her. And he's like, no, no, I don't want to put you at risk. You don't have to do it. And she's like, she says, no, no, what you want is important. I, I think we can do this together. So for the first time, she was able to hear him. She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her. Next day, she goes to a safe house. She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle East for the next 20 years.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 36:00Charles Duhigg?

  And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches it today.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  It's one of the best stories ever.

• 36:05Charles Duhigg?

  I, I love that story.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Let's go, I'm going to pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there. So when you say matching, was it that she was in an emotional conversation and he wasn't? Is that what you mean by that?

• 36:14Charles Duhigg?

  That's a huge part of it.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Okay, he was also vulnerable.

• 36:16Charles Duhigg?

  But he was also vulnerable. So she was, not, not only was she in an emotional conversation, but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting, right? Instead of saying like, oh, you shouldn't feel bad. I'm going to cheer you up. He was saying like, look, you feel bad. Like, let's just acknowledge that. And that matching feels good. Because it feels like someone's hearing us.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  I think it's a huge thing. I don't ever like saying gender specific stuff because I don't believe it. But I do think by and large, those two elements, women are better at naturally. Meaning I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be. I just, and I don't even like saying this, but I just, I think in general, most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often, more often. So that when there is an emotional conversation you're in, we just want to fix it or solve the problem or be the savior or be valuable or be important, rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge their emotion.

• 37:08Charles Duhigg?

  It's not always men and women, right?

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Sure, it's not. It's definitely not, but it's more prevalent, I think.

• 37:12Charles Duhigg?

  And, and I think what's happening there is we're following, falling back on what feels comfortable to us.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Right, it is for sure.

• 37:19Charles Duhigg?

  So, so if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off, it's not so much that like, I actually think we should be practical. It's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 37:30Charles Duhigg?

  And so I'm trying, I'm going back to my safe place.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 37:34Charles Duhigg?

  And, and actually, that safe place is emotional, right? Like, like, like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem is like, it really bothers me that you're upset. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I want to make you feel better. I feel like that's my job and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like, that is emotional, right?

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:53Charles Duhigg?

  I'm just, I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation because that's my, that's my safe space.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  That's my pattern. That's how I hide.

• 38:00Charles Duhigg?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  That's a zillion percent right. I, I told you we're going to go a bit long, so we're going to.

• 38:04Charles Duhigg?

  Absolutely.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Okay, let me ask you this. This is a hard one. And so I keep using the term non-verbal. I've used that, I, let me, let me couch it a little differently.

• 38:13Charles Duhigg?

  Okay.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Literally non-verbal. So types of communication that are not done verbally. Meaning.

• 38:18Charles Duhigg?

  Email.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Mail, written, email, text, whatever. I have found for me, if I'm transparent with people, I feel like I've, I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator. I've also found my friends that are hyper-verbal people, in general, again, in other generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason, when I write or text, it comes across as harsh, curt, um, sometimes aloof. I, my writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style does. And I, I'm really not very good at that. So what about tip, tips or keys on that?

• 38:56Charles Duhigg?

  So what's going on there? So, so it's interesting. If we were having this conversation, um, about a hundred years ago, a little bit under a hundred years ago, when phones first became popular, what we would be talking about, and there were all these articles that said this, no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone well. Because unless you can see someone, you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice. You're, you're not like, like telephone communication is basically going to be for like sending over like grocery orders. Now, you and I are both Gen X, right? Like, when we were kids, we were on the phone for like seven hours a night.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 39:27Charles Duhigg?

  I can have, I have a friendship, I have friendships where I only talk to the person on the phone.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  So do I. And I, I still remember the phone numbers of my friends when I was a kid. I don't know anybody's phone number now, but I know Andy Querin's phone number.

• 39:39Charles Duhigg?

  Yes, right? Right? It's like in there.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Right, it's true.

• 39:42Charles Duhigg?

  And so what's interesting is if, if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone, what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone. When you're on the phone, people tend to over enunciate because they know that they can't see us, right? We tend to explain ourselves a little bit more. And when we make a joke, we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke. We know that they don't have the visual signal. And so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio. So now the thing is, we've been talking on the phones for over, over a hundred years. We've been communicating face to face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982, right? Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to, how to communicate digitally.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Good point.

• 40:25Charles Duhigg?

  We have not, though, the rules about how that channel is different have not become intuitive yet. So the solution is, we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing. And we have to say to ourselves, okay, and these are the tips. When I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face. And study after study has shown this, that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like. Seventy percent higher response rate.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:54Charles Duhigg?

  Because, because I need to signal it, right? If I'm, now, if I'm texting you, I can be short. But if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  That's my problem.

• 41:07Charles Duhigg?

  Like, it's gonna, it's gonna rub you the wrong way, right? So, part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say, the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 41:19Charles Duhigg?

  So, we treat email and text and Slack and everything exactly the same way. But the truth is, if you just take a second and you say like, oh, I don't have to say please necessarily in this text, because it could be short, but every email I should like bend over backwards, be a little bit more polite. It works wonders.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Brother, I'm such a bad emailer. I, I'm so lazy with emails. I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it, you know what I mean? Never mind a thank you. I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived. And I've had a lot of people, even that I've worked with, you know, even like in the podcast space with like, man, when I met you, you're so nice and kind about reading your emails. You're scary. I'm like, really? I didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else. I thought email was the faster way, but you're a hundred percent right. The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to. That right there was huge for me.

• 42:04Charles Duhigg?

  And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like, if you say to your employees, like, look, I just want you to know, I'm gonna send you brusque emails, because like I'm moving a million miles an hour, you should not read anything into that.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:17Charles Duhigg?

  Now, we know the rule.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Well, now, I've pre-framed it, but I don't do that.

• 42:20Charles Duhigg?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  And I treat everybody like they should know better, and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice, long, you know, six paragraph email, and I reply with like seven words.

• 42:29Charles Duhigg?

  Right.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  And I wonder why they feel dismissed.

• 42:31Charles Duhigg?

  Sounds great.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  In a conversation, that's my daughter. Yep.

• 42:33Charles Duhigg?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Right. That's my, that's the extent of my emails to people. So, you're a thousand percent right.

• 42:38Charles Duhigg?

  My son texts me, K. He doesn't even put, okay. He just puts K. I'm like, how much lazier can you get?

• 42:44Speaker 00

  I relate to that.

• 42:45Charles Duhigg?

  But that, that setting the ground rules, setting, like figuring out the rules together, we can do that in a conversation too. So, if we're talking about, say, race, right? Which is a tough, a tough topic. If I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this, and I just want to acknowledge, it's gonna, it will likely be awkward. I will probably make mistakes and say things that I don't really, not saying it the right way. You're probably gonna make mistakes. Like, I think just as a, as a ground rule, like, let's just say, it's okay to say things and forgive each other.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Very good.

• 43:17Charles Duhigg?

  For not getting it right. So, now, we've established that, now, all of a sudden, that conversation about race feels so much easier.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Right. We're both open. We're both vulnerable. We've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts. And the other thing is, if you don't create that space, then you're really not saying what you really think either, and it's not an authentic exchange.

• 43:34Charles Duhigg?

  That's exactly.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  I agree. When you ask for permission, um, I'm gonna ask you two more things.

• 43:38Charles Duhigg?

  Sure.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:40Speaker 03

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• 45:09Speaker 00

  You said earlier something about repeating back to someone. Hey, what I think I heard you say was, help me understand this, right? I love that and totally agree.

• 45:16Charles Duhigg?

  So, sorry, go ahead.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  No, go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also, what about, the conversation's been over to me. What I think, what I feel the most listened to, you and I had lunch together, okay? And you did that. But seven thirty that night, I get a message from you. You're gone, I'm gone, and you say, I just want to tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much, and the way that you spoke about your wife, or what you shared about blah, blah, blah, I just want to tell you, it was so meaningful for me. To me, that's like what you suggested on steroids, that actually, after the conversation has ended, I come back later and say, not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said, and it made a difference to me. I just want to share that I do that, and it, I think that's a way of me saying, I really value and appreciate what we discussed.

• 46:02Charles Duhigg?

  And it feels so good. I, I've gotten an email like that from you, and like, it felt really good to get it. And it was a great conversation.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:09Charles Duhigg?

  But like, to know that it was meaningful to you, and it's much like laughing, it's you saying like, I want to connect.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  You wanted to say something, and I think I jumped in front of it.

• 46:16Charles Duhigg?

  Oh, I was just gonna talk about this looping for understanding, these three. So, so looping for understanding, there's three steps to it. You, you ask a question, hopefully a deep question, repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say. And then step number three, ask if you got it right.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Ask if you got it right.

• 46:33Charles Duhigg?

  Because, and it's that third step that we often forget to do, and is the most powerful.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 46:38Charles Duhigg?

  Because what I'm saying when I ask you if I got it right, and I, I do this all the time. I'm like, like, let me tell you what I hear you saying, and like, like, tell me if I'm getting this wrong. Is that we are saying to them, not only do I want to understand you, I acknowledge that I might have missed something, and you, you might have phrased it in a way that doesn't actually capture what you want. And so, like, when someone says that to me, when they're like, tell me if I'm getting this right, and they repeat back what I just said, I actually find it valuable as the speaker, because I'm like, no, no, no, you, like, I did a bad job of explaining, like, the, the thing that, like, I really care about, because you didn't pick up on it, and you were listening. I need to get better at that, and that feels good.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  That's outstanding. All right, last question. First off, let me say this. This is awesome.

• 47:24Charles Duhigg?

  Oh, thank you.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  And I, uh, both times we've had to interact together like this, it flies by for me. And frankly, that's because you're a super communicator.

• 47:35Charles Duhigg?

  As are you, as are you.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. And the quality of your work, listen, guys, there's a lot of books. This man doesn't write a ton of them, because they're so good when he writes them. There's so much in here, even in today's podcast, like, I hope you understand the value of getting good at these, what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world. That was a great conversation, and if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. Welcome back to Max Out with Ed Mylett. I got him. I got ET.

• 48:10Eric Thomas?

  Hey.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  We've been so glad to have you here. Thank you so much.

• 48:16Eric Thomas?

  Beautiful home, man.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 48:17Eric Thomas?

  Beautiful family, man. I feel, yeah, I don't do a lot of this, so those who know me know, I've probably done two, three podcasts.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, wow.

• 48:25Eric Thomas?

  So, this is, yeah, this is special.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  And as good as it is to have you here, it's better to have DeeDee, your wife, here with you.

• 48:30Eric Thomas?

  Definitely.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Figuring it all out.

• 48:32Eric Thomas?

  Yeah, yeah, no question.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  So, thank you.

• 48:34Eric Thomas?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  So, this is Eric Thomas, as you all know. And, uh, in my opinion, you guys know that I've been speaking for a long time. I think this is an anointed, gifted, incredible communicator, because it comes from your heart. You just, you're, you're outstanding. So, people ask me all the time, if I have you on the show, and I want to at least ask you this one thing, because we were gonna know this, someone said, hey, I want to communicate. I want to speak better. Not like you, uh, you know, you are you. What would you tell them about communicate? Even if it's just like one-on-one or in a group of people, what's the key thing for you when you communicate with people?

• 49:04Eric Thomas?

  You can't, you can't communicate with a person when you don't know them, you know? And I think what people do wrong when they speak is they want to come and give you what they want. Like, they studied something, their life experience, they just want to come and give you that. You know, and I don't know about you, but some of the best restaurants have been where I've been able to go and order. Like, I, you know, when my money changed a little bit, I was able to start going to restaurants and say like, yo, I don't want that. You know, say like, this is what I want. Well, the jasmine rice comes with the, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want jasmine rice. Like, this, I, I, this is what I want, you know? And, and so, for me, it's like, when you get around people, and you spend enough time with people to see what people want, and then you give them what they need.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:45Eric Thomas?

  To me, that's what it's all about, you know? So, it's like, we gotta get out of this, this is what I want to talk about, or this is what I want to say, or this is how I want it. It's like, no, my idols, Mother Teresa. Like, I used to just to watch her movement, right? And she was the lowest of the pecking order, when you talk about priest, she wasn't an Archbishop. She wasn't a pope. She was a nun. But yet, you know who she is, and I would watch her, and she would see, okay, here are the needs of the people. When I watched Martin Luther King, this dude could have easily been like a millionaire, living in a, he moved with the people and said, hey, I'm gonna give up my life and what I want to do to help. So, for me, it's like, you can't affect a person if you don't know what they want. So, you gotta spend enough time with people, just chilling with people, hanging out with people. That's why I was geeking, it's like, it's not a studio.

• 50:30Eric Thomas?

  I'm like, yo, we're Edge's crib. It's gonna be phenomenal, just because the ethos, like, we, we're in your house. This is where you live. Like, it's a, there's energy already in the, in the space, you know? And spirits, you know, already in the place. So, for me, it's like, you gotta get to know the people, spend time with the people, and then once you find out what they need, you like a cow, you chew it up, chew it. Chew it up, chew it up, chew it up. You study it, you study, and then when you get to them, you give them what they need. And of course, they're gonna be excited, it's because of what they need.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  I love that. So, speaking of getting to know people, tell me about you. What's your day like now? What's a day in the life? What's your world like now?

• 51:04Eric Thomas?

  Well, it's not fair.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Know that about you.

• 51:06Eric Thomas?

  Yeah, I should probably tell them about 10 years ago. It's not fair now.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Hey, we know, but people know, like you talk about, look, I was homeless.

• 51:11Eric Thomas?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I say, well, my life now, if you look at it, it's not fair. Dee Dee retired back in March of last year. And so now, our day is just our day, man, you know? Our day is just, man, I'm free, man. It's a great feeling. I do want to say this to those of you who are watching, who are not yet where you want to be. Like, keep going. Like, keep going. Don't quit. You're already in pain. You're already struggling. Like, get something for your pain. It doesn't make sense to go through pain and then not get nothing on the other side of it. So since you're already struggling, you're already going through it, get on the other side. So what does my day look like? Like, yo, Dee and I got up at 3 o'clock, you know, she called a prayer line. You know, I have my own little prayer line I call. Uh, we breakfast, or a little smaller breakfast, just sitting there, talking to each other.

• 51:56Eric Thomas?

  We're having worship with each other, just like talking about the goodness, like we can't believe we're here. You know what I'm saying? We went from Detroit to, you know, the world. Um, you know, we're going to the movies later on in the day, going out to eat, driving around. So it's not fair to talk about my day now. You know, but my day now is, I promised her when we were younger, because she worked first, and supported my dream. And I told her one day, we're gonna flip it, you know? And I'm, I'm, you're gonna stop working, and I'm, I'm gonna spoil you and take care of you. So I'm like at a point in my life now where I'm getting to make good on my promise, you know? And we're debt-free right now, man, and just, just traveling the world, man, yeah. Oh, no man, nothing. And we're able to help kids go to college. We got a church we're building right now. My son just graduated.

• 52:41Eric Thomas?

  My daughter's a sophomore, so we're just enjoying each other, you know? And, uh, it's, it's a great feeling, man.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Face change. I love seeing somebody being their authentic self, like living their real destiny. Like, it's one, you know, your faith makes you happy, right? Material things don't really make you happy. One of the things that really, I find happy people, is they're kind of living their life on their destiny. They're on the track. The other thing, too, that makes us happy in life is like, the Lord gave you certain gifts, whether it's your discernment, your brain, your articulation, how you nurture people. And these, these gifts were all uniquely given. Happy people spend a lot of their life using those gifts. The reason you're so happy is you're in a state of using your giftedness. If you're good at math, use those gifts, right? If you're, you're a great athlete, use those gifts, right? A great thinker, a great person of faith, like use your giftedness. It'll make you happy. It was sewn into you for a reason. Before we start the interview with my next guest, just want to remind you all

• 53:31Speaker 00

  that you can subscribe to the show on YouTube, or follow the show on Apple or Spotify. We have all the links in our show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Now, on with the show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. So, are you like me? Did you ever want to go to Yale? Did you ever want to go to an Ivy League school and wonder what it was like? You know, for me, there was a few obstacles. One was IQ. Two was grades. Three was, uh, college scores. And, uh, money. So, it kind of eliminated me. So you were almost there. I was almost there. I was this close. But today, I'm gonna bring you into what I think is, you know, one of the most popular courses at Yale School of Management. And the lady who teaches that class, um, we're gonna go in there together today. So if you're interested in that, listen. And if that never interested you, would you like to be more influential?

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Which I think is the most important skill set a human being can possess, is to be able to influence themselves and other human beings. And I have the best person on the planet, I think, to talk about it today. So Zoe Chance, welcome to the show.

• 54:29Zoe Chance?

  Ed, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here, and I'm so happy to meet you.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  So, let's go through some misconceptions about being a person of influence, because this is covered really in the very beginning of the book. And I want to go through a few of them because they were striking to me. Here's a big one. I think salespeople in general believe this. And they, they say, if they understand the facts, they'll make the right decision. I hear, I even hear good salespeople. And I think these people that say, well, I just represent the facts and let them make a decision. I think they are good at other things unconsciously, they're unaware they're good at, that still makes them influential, because it is not that they understand the facts, they're gonna make a change. So that is a misperception about influence. True?

• 55:10Zoe Chance?

  Yeah, and Ed, I so agree with you that the talented, successful salespeople who say that are doing something very different. But I, but how I interpret their statement is that the other person feels that all they have done is state the facts and let them make their own rational decision. We like to feel that that's how people are influencing us, even though that's not how we're actually influenced.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Now, is there any technique to that? That's an interesting point. Is there a technique to that, to where if you are communicating with somebody that they feel they have to have the need to understand the facts? So that you're providing that like in a fax sandwich, so to speak? Or, I, I, it's not, another thing I had written down here to ask you, but I'm curious if there's a technique involved with that.

• 55:54Zoe Chance?

  The, the most important thing when we're distinguishing, um, emotional kinds of responses, gut checks, things like that, from information processing of facts, is that the facts happen second.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:08Zoe Chance?

  The emotional stuff happens first. We actually have to like each other. By, like, I, if you want to persuade me of something, I have to like you before I'm even going to pay attention to your rational argument. And if you're going to try to persuade me to say, um, get a product or a service, you have to appeal to my visceral emotional preferences to be curious to hear why I might want to buy this product or service. And then, when you're giving me the facts, it's a completely different experience, because I'm listening to those facts to try to support my hypothesis. This is a thing I should get.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  So they're making the decision emotionally and rationalizing it logically with facts?

• 56:51Zoe Chance?

  Yes.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:52Zoe Chance?

  Emotionally first, rationally second.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  And then, so if they have to like us, that's kind of called building rapport, so to speak. And you cover a topic in the book on, and it's a word I use all the time that I've not tangibly been able to describe. But I use often with people is I'll say, no, she's charismatic. She's got charisma. Now, I guess when I say that, it must mean to some extent that like, I like her, or I like him. But you talk about charisma in the book, and I've always thought, maybe this can't be taught. You know, maybe this is just one of these inherited, and I know better than that. But when I, you see a really charismatic, I've been fortunate enough doing the show and, you know, in my life. And now, that's a charismatic person, and they haven't.

• 57:35Zoe Chance?

  And you have that too, Ed. Don't be shy.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. I appreciate that. But there's this, there's almost a correlation between one's charismatic abilities and their influential abilities, a lot of the times. So, how, teach us about charisma. Let's do that.

• 57:52Zoe Chance?

  Yeah. Yeah. When I just ask people, what is the number one influence skill you would like to master? And I don't even give them options. The most common answer is charisma. So people really badly want to be more charismatic. But then, when I say, okay, what is that?

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:08Zoe Chance?

  Like, well, it's, you know, people pay attention to you. Okay, but why? You, you can't be somebody like, running through the office in your underwear. That's not charismatic, even though people pay attention to you, right? But, so what I do, academic research, I'm putting it to the side, because the leading model is a seven-factor model that you, you, it's not something you can take action on, right? You can't do seven things at once. What I do is organically figure out with groups of people, what is it that makes individuals charismatic? So, I'll ask someone, and you've read this chapter, Ed, so it'll, um, it's, it's not a new thought or experience, but I am curious,

• 58:53Zoe Chance?

  who in your life, out of all these charismatic people, just pops into your head as someone who represents a charismatic individual?

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Uh, Barack Obama.

• 59:02Zoe Chance?

  Okay.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  In person. President Obama, um, by the way, two or three of the presidents that I've met. Now, maybe their stature predisposed me to think that about them, their position. But I did sense a certain energy connection, uh, with them, uh, that, the first person that came to mind.

• 59:21Zoe Chance?

  Yeah. And, and power can influence this also. And so when you meet Barack Obama, what, how would you describe, say, three traits if you can, or three behaviors that he does that has you feel that he's charismatic?

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Deep listening, which you talk about in the book. Unbelievable listening, almost makes you have the, I'd like to think that I work on this too, that they make you feel as if you're the only person that matters in that moment. And that, that, that you're valued and that you're important. I think that that's a part of it. And I think a tremendous, um, air of certainty, or presence, confidence about what it is they're communicating about, they truly believe. I often say sometimes that I think, I don't know that everybody always has to believe what you're saying, but they have to believe you believe what you're saying. Be influential. And I feel like those are two of the characteristics when I think of leaders that I've been around, and he would be one of them.

• 1:00:16Zoe Chance?

  Yeah. So I feel like this is kind of cheating, because we sort of teed up, because you've read this chapter. But this is also, listeners will know, just very directly, probably true, of someone like Obama, having the ability to connect and display confidence are the two key factors for being a charismatic person. And we can do both of those by focusing our attention on the other person instead of on ourselves. And that gives them the feeling of being the only person in the room, is that deep. Listening and connection. And this is the opposite of what a lot of people

• 1:01:00Zoe Chance?

  just initially think of charisma as being, because we think of people being charismatic when they're performing or when they're speaking, but it comes through in that connection when they're listening.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  So you're so right. I, and by the way, just so we're on balance, I can hear all the right wing people listening this rolling their eyes. And if I say this guy's name, the left will, but I would also say it in a completely different way. President George W. Bush was another person that came to my mind, who's obviously not in the same party as President Obama, but in a very different way. His way was more of a kind, smiling listening. There was an active listening. I think President Obama's listening is just a focus on you and there's eye contact level. President Bush did it differently, much more with like a physical touch, acknowledging what you've said and a kind of a smirk and a smile, like he likes what I'm saying, was being expressed on his face. And I think a confident person,

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  I feel like one of the highest indicators of one's personal self-confidence is they're willing to listen intently, not thinking about my reply, not thinking about what I'm going to say. Yes. Not think about what you think about me, but I'm just with you in this moment. And so I want to ask you about kind of a little deeper dive on this, because I think this is just.

• 1:02:15Zoe Chance?

  Can I share one thing that's funny just while, while we're on presidents? And yes, I agree with you about all of that.

• 1:02:22Zoe Chance?

  Leaders, especially what like you can't get to be the leader of the United States without being very charismatic, right? And this even extends to Jimmy Carter, who might be labeled by some people as the least charismatic president ever. When I got to meet Jimmy Carter, we're getting a picture and he puts his arm around my waist and he says something kind, literally my vision clouded over because I was so starstruck by the charisma of this man who was in his eighties at this point in time. For all leaders, not just presidents, being charismatic, being perceived as charismatic will help you be perceived as a better leader, not just as a more charismatic person, but I find that really interesting.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  It's really true. And actually, it's about changing people's minds, too. I've, I've not met President Trump. For example, we're going politics here. It's very weird, but just to give you an example, I've not met him.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  But I have spoken to him and I've had different people that really know him very well. And I had a lot of people of mine that are very left leaning, say, I met him and I don't like him at all, but man, did I like him when I met him because he had this charisma in person. And so there's a quality. And I think a lot of it is this confidence and this certainty. Do you agree that to some extent, once there's rapport? So which would you use the term earlier that someone needs to kind of like you, right? But once there's rapport, is there an element that the more certain person, if there is a connection emotionally, will influence the less certain person, simply because of the overwhelming belief they have and what it is they're communicating?

• 1:03:55Zoe Chance?

  That absolutely can happen. And you're reminding me of something that my coach used to do. So my coach, Mandy, used to be one of the top sales trainers for Tony Robbins, and that was how we connected. And Mandy, in her closing pitch, used to say, I definitely, definitely, definitely know. And she would say it three times to close a deal. So if someone is open minded to considering your opinion, then absolutely your certainty can help you close the deal. If someone is not open minded to listening to you, and that's why you said, if you have rapport, right?

• 1:04:36Zoe Chance?

  But like right now, across the political divide that we have, that's a bigger chasm than ever, being absolutely certain on one side and trying to persuade someone on the other side, your certainty is not helping you, it's harming you.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  And I think the reason that politics is so divisive now is to your point. And I didn't know we were going to go on this drill, but I think it's worth saying. When I brought up one president's name, that gave an emotional reaction to everybody. And then when I brought the other one, it gave one to everyone else. And the reason these political people are so smart is they know that if they can keep us from not liking each other, that we sort of will stay in our camps. And so it's really brilliant that to keep people not to be able to change behavior, let's make us all not like each other, because the fundamental principle of your work, which is so true. Well, one of them is we have to like each other. We have to have an emotional connection in order to be open to these other techniques. So in politics, if you can just keep us all from not liking each other,

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  then there's not an influence issue going to happen with you losing someone who's in your camp. Isn't that true?

• 1:05:35Zoe Chance?

  You just gave me shivers because I've never thought of this being a national or global campaign to keep us from liking each other. And I'm going to be thinking about that for the next month. Thank you. And something that you said about Trump really struck me, which is that people were surprised. And I've heard this said about George W. Bush as well. So, so I'm liberal, as are lots of people at Yale, right? And I've heard so many people say, George W. Bush went to Yale. So many people say, when I met him, I just couldn't help liking him. And, and listeners, I want you to actually not just hear that about these two presidents, but internalize that about yourself. This is a human phenomenon that we like each other more than we expect when we're interacting in person.

• 1:06:21Zoe Chance?

  When you are asking somebody for something, when you're asking somebody for help, making an in-person request, everybody on earth, on average, is two or three times more likely to say yes than you expect that they will be. And a big part of that is that you underestimate how much they like you.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  You're so on this. Like I watch people all the time. And by the way, I think influence, people ask me, what would you give your children? For me, the first thing I want them to be moral and ethical and have our faith or their version of faith. I want them to have that. I then would want them to be somebody who can be influential. Because under influential requires confidence, requires an ability to communicate. I think it's the most important skill that you can give somebody. And to your point about, this is something everyone just slow down because you may think, well, okay, I get this. How often do you go in when you're trying to get your kids to do something? Or you're trying to get someone in business to do something, or even yourself, and not slow down first and make sure there's an emotional connection first where we're here. When I play golf, for example, Zoe, one of my favorite things that happens is I'll play golf with someone I've never met before.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  And then when we're done, the next day or two, they'll, they'll tell a mutual friend of ours, go, wow, I really liked Ed so much. What a great guy, you know? And then they'll, this is really before my kind of public persona, but then they'd say, what does he do? Because we spent the whole four or five hours on the golf course talking about them. Because people like people who like them. And so I spend my time, I already know about me. I'm not even interested in me. I already know everything I know and think. So I'm so interested in what other people think. And the reason I make this point is one of the other misconceptions you say, and I want everybody to get this is one major, it's number nine, actually, is you say people, people misconceive, they say to themselves, people don't listen to people like you, like me, people won't listen to someone like me.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  And I want you to dispel that misconception for everyone. I think they think if I had followers or I had money or I had success or I had, I had something I'm lacking, then they'd listen. But people like me, people don't listen to us. And you just spell that as a misconception.

• 1:08:25Zoe Chance?

  Yeah, this, this is such a deep thing for so many of us, based on these factors that you mentioned, based on our race, our income, our age, our education, what we look like, all of these things. And the truth is, first of all, people listen to us better when we listen to them better. And they listen to us more when we put our voice out there in a confident and connected way. What happens when we feel that we don't belong and people aren't going to listen to us, that's really insidious, is we can speak in a way that makes it hard to listen to. I write in the charisma chapter, actually, about diminishers.

• 1:09:11Zoe Chance?

  Women in particular do this a lot, but it, it's a matter of feeling like you're less powerful or lower status. So it happens in all, all kinds of other situations that men do it. We'll say, I, I think, I was just wondering, so I could be wrong, but, and as soon as you start your communication that way, it's easy for the other person to tune out. And then you feel like no one listens to you.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  I also think you're right here. I think the mind of the listener goes, yeah, you could be wrong. Those, those are actually real words to somebody, you know, and it's, it's a terrible premise to begin a sentence with or to begin an entire persuasive message where it's like, could be wrong, or I don't mean to bother you, or these other things that you say to minimize yourself.

• 1:09:53Zoe Chance?

  Right. Because then what they hear is like, oh yeah, you actually are bothering me.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  Correct. Yeah.

• 1:09:57Zoe Chance?

  And, and you're taking more time than if you just said the thing that you don't want to bother me about.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  It's interesting you say that because one of the other things I really believe about people who can influence is they learn to say things in more concise ways with fewer words. Typically, when you're lacking confidence in your belief system, you feel like you need to say more to persuade. Actually, liars do this, too. Liars will say more and more, don't they? They say more and more because they know what they're saying isn't true. So they add more and more and more to it. And so one display of confidence is just fewer words with more certainty. That was a great conversation. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way.

• 1:10:39Charles Duhigg?

  I get a lot of this from you, like overcoming the fears, the insecurities, the dreaming. This stuff is what excites me. But a lot of people also want to learn how to make a lot of money. Or they want to learn how to build their business, or they want to learn how to accelerate the growth financially, right? They want to get out of a scarcity mindset into an abundance mindset financially. What would you say if you could only share three things that you could do? Or if you could take away everything else and you can only do three things to build a business or generate wealth? You had to strip away all

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  All the other skills or assets that you had, but these three things you could only do to get you as much as you possibly wanted. What would that be for you? Okay, the first thing is that you have to identify what you're great at doing and stop trying to play life at the things that you're mediocre at doing. So I know what I'm good at doing and there's a very limited group, so it made it easy to pick from. It's not like I had eighty things. I'm good at like really two things. I've made hundreds of millions of dollars with these two things. And ironically, let me say this to you also, that thing you're great at may have been born out of your biggest pain. Absolutely. So, and this is a gift that you have as well, but one of my major gifts is my ability to read people and to be present with them. Why? I had an alcoholic dad. Yeah. When he would come through that front door, I had three little sisters and a mom.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  And this five-year-old little boy would have to look up at his hero. Is he drunk or sober? Is he walking? Is he slurring? Is his tie tied correctly or is it loose? How's he moving? How's he talking? And if it was drunk dad, I need to get my sisters upstairs and mom should go take a shower. If it was sober dad, we're great. But I would have to read this man. And so that allowed me to learn to be present. It's a terrible way to learn to do it, but I did. Then the second skill would kick in. I can talk. I would grab his hand. And my sisters go upstairs, I say daddy, I hit a home run in the baseball game today. I got a ninety on my spelling test. How was your day? What did you do? And I would talk and change his state.

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  And as I grew up, those two gifts have made me a lot of money in business, my ability to be present and listen, my ability to talk. So what are your gifts? What are two or three? It could be your nurturing skills, your intellect, your problem solving, your intensity, your passion, your calmness, your peace, your humor, whatever it is. The second thing that I would say is that you have to get in the business of truly caring about people. I know that sounds real generic, but people matter, things don't. When I worked at the orphanage and I walked into the orphanage that changed my life, and I know you know that story. My little boys were eight to ten years old. Here's what they wanted from me. I want everyone to hear this very carefully, get nothing else out of the show than this. If you only get one thing, these boys needed someone to love them, care about them.

• 1:13:21Speaker 00

  Here's a big one that almost no one does for another human being, believe in them. And then just show them how to do better. Yeah. We say it again, love, care, believe, and show them how to do better. When I left the orphanage and went into business, I figured out they weren't unique. Every human. Ed, how do you coach the top politicians or CEOs? Love them, care about them, believe in them? And then show them how to do a little bit better at whatever it is. So that's number two. And then the third thing is you have to become obsessed. You have to become obsessed. This has to become an obsession of yours. You know, our obsessions become our possessions. And the truth of the matter is that most of you don't understand the effort, the time, the focus, the obsessiveness that's required to do something great with your life. You want to do something great, you better be great at it. Greatness rises.

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  And so if you can get really good at those three things, listen, why are you so good at this? Why is it this? You're great at this. The whole idea of greatness is the concept of the show. But you have to get great and you have to be intentional. You have to be obsessed. And if people knew behind the scenes, this seems very easy, but I know your schedule. I know what you've put into this. I know what the time is. I know what the relentless pace is. I know what the focus is and how much you think about it. I know this has to be something that's just infectious and when people get around you, it emanates and there's an energy and there's like, this person's just gonna will this to happen. Right. And when you have that, you have to be cognizant of your energy. You're always making people feel something. So take control of what they're feeling.

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  And so I think just most people dramatically underestimate the amount of obsessive, crazy relentless focus it takes to be great at something. Yes. And then they go, whoa, I don't want to be that out of balance or controlled. Then you don't want to be great. Cause there's gonna be a period of your life, not out of balance, but where some things take priorities over others. That's not a lack of balance. Nothing's like this all of the time. And by the way, the hardest working you've ever been, the most crazy focus you've ever been, was the happiest you've ever been in your life. You go back, well, when I was studying for my master's degree or whatever, you're like, weren't you crazy focused? You were busy all the time. If you're a mother and you're carrying this baby and this, the hardest thing you've ever do is carry this baby, plus you had a job and you're bringing this person along.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  It's the happiest times of your life or when you're the most, you feel out of control. You're the most obsessed is when you're the happiest. It's this just flawed belief that if I do nothing, if I just have, ah, I'm gonna be super happy. You weren't, there's plenty of ah's. I meditate every morning. I pray every morning. It's what gives me the energy and clarity of mind to do something great. But this notion that that brings bliss, that nothingness, doing nothing, expand, no expansion of your being, no contribution is gonna make you happy? This is a flawed belief. You're literally moving from the very things that will make you happy. This notion that you not growing and expanding, you not contributing, you not evolving.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  Your spirit was born. All the cells in your body regenerate themselves. Your digestive tract is brand new every six months to a year. Your lung tissue regenerates. Your skeletal system regenerates about every six to eight years. Like you're constantly being reborn all the time internally. So externally and in your heart and your soul and your spirit and your brain, you should be as well. These are the things that make us happy, not, not just doing nothing. Right, having a purpose, having a mission and intention. It's what gets you up. It's what you were born for. That mission, by the way, may be to serve other people and to bring peace to them. Great, but have something. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far.

• 1:16:48Speaker 00

  Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So I wanted to have this man on for a couple of years. I'm a really big fan of his work. Not just from the negotiation standpoint, but from a communication standpoint. And he spent twenty-four years in the FBI crisis negotiation unit. He's done over a hundred and fifty different international hostage type negotiations. I think he's probably the foremost expert on the planet in communication, not just negotiation. His work is unique. He obviously brings an experience and a perspective that really nobody else on the planet has, based on what I just told you. And I'm just a big fan of his work. So, by the way, I got a book too. It's been out for a while, but I read it when it came out called Never Split the Difference.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  I highly recommend you guys all get that. We're gonna break that stuff down today with Chris Voss. So Chris, welcome to the show finally.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Thanks, Ed. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  The thing I've learned most from your work though, and this is where I want to pull apart. So everybody, forget negotiation. This is just life skills right here. And I think I have been by and large terrible at this most of my life, what I'm about to ask you about. And I think I'm an assertive number one, probably. And although I don't have a lot of abilities, I really don't, one of them is the ability to speak and to communicate. And I think oftentimes I rely on that as opposed to what I've really worked on the last decade is my listening skills. And I have found, like I'll do a retreat with a bunch of people that'll come in, for example, for business, right? And I'll talk for three days, give them the best information, engage them, train them up, motivate them, inspire them.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  And they leave and I think they think it's good. This is back in the day. And then another buddy of mine would come in, he's not even really that prepared. They sit around and BS for three days and they ask them a bunch of questions. They all talk. And they leave and it gets back to me, that was the greatest retreat they've ever been to in their lives. And it felt to me like it's probably because they were listened to more. So it's just a concept, as a negotiator, as a communicator, as a man, as a human, how important is active listening and listening in general to persuasion and connection with people? Cause I think it's a lost art.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  It's an advanced skill. And in many cases, like isn't assertive, and you sound very much like an assertive, your description for a variety of reasons. Assertive is our time is money people. And so if you're given instructions, like I'm gonna jam, you know, time is money, every moment, no moment can be wasted. I'm gonna download as much value as I possibly can. And I'm not gonna waste a moment not giving these people value for each and every minute they're here. And so that becomes a bit of a deluge to start with. And it's hard to keep up with. It's, it's, everybody on my team, we got that problem in our instruction. We're so, wanna give you nothing but valuable content.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  And so then listening, like the tiniest little things. How much time do you have for somebody who's not listening to you? Like zero. And you're gonna notice it right away. And so in these tiny moments, being listened to actually increases analysis on both sides. It gives people an opportunity to do a little bit more processing.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  And so there's a, there's a whole variety of subtle nuances, invisible nuances that affect their proactive, not just active, proactive listening starts to kick into gear. And so I'll get, it seems less efficient. And then suddenly you're in a, you've accelerated fifteen steps. You don't even know how it happened. And that's the, you know, and to me, and it's one of the, I, I possess that's the magic. I know the magic's coming. But just these subtle little tweaks. So.

• 1:20:42Speaker 00

  What a couple of tweaks you use. What do you, there's some active listening skills you'll use to let someone know you are, right? So it's one thing to be listening. It's another thing for them to get the message and feeling that you're listening as well, right?

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Well, the, the, the secret easiest one, simplest is the mirror. Repeating the last one to three words of what somebody has just said.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  And this is the best one to open up your teenager. Like there have been so many moms who suddenly opened up their daughters. Because, you know, the kid comes home from school. How was your day? Fine. What'd you do? I don't remember.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  You didn't indicate to them that you even listened to the answer to the first question. So you say, how was your day? They go, fine. The parent's response should be, fine?

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Which is, I, e- even though you only gave me one word, I just proved that I listened to. Now that tiny moment tends to open people up very quickly. Because normally you got a list of questions.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And you're checking them off the list. Mom, dad, I'm going to say, how was your day? What did you do? Boom, boom. I, you know, you feel like your intention to do a job as a parent to display interest is there. Yes, it is. But your method was poor. Because by following up immediately with your next question. You made them think you weren't listening to the first answer. And so the, the mirror is like the first way to get your foot in the door to open a communication up.

• 1:22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is why you should be following Chris's work, why you should bring him in to speak, why you should get never split the difference. That alone is simple. And I don't do it. I don't do it. Here's what I do do. That's, I just learned from you recently. I was in, I am in the middle of a rather intense negotiation on something right now. And I allowed it to escalate to where it got heated. And the advantage to that, though, is I got to use one of your techniques and I, I want everyone to have you elaborate on this because

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  I think the foundation of what I've learned is just allowing someone to feel heard or be heard is so critical. We'll talk about it in the negotiations hostage wise next, but I want to ask you this. So anyway, it got elevated. This was just like a week ago, even though I learned this from you a little while ago. And the guy said something to me about what he wouldn't do and then sort of a statement about me. That wasn't flattering.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:19Speaker 00

  And the normal me would have been just to annihilate him, right? Verbally, which would have made me feel good in the moment and gotten us further away. And I, not kidding you, I was sitting about thirty feet from where I am right now. And I knew I was having you on the show in a few weeks. And so I was even more familiar through work and I actually said to him, I said, I, I won't say his name. I said to him, I said, listen. You must have a great reason for feeling that way and saying that. What is it? And he just opened up. And it allowed him to talk. And basically what it did is it bought me time to think about other things, but it also, I got so much more information in the next seven minutes from him than I'd gotten in three two hour full sessions previously.

• 1:24:04Speaker 00

  And we connected pretty deeply during that moment. So can you talk about the question to ask when someone says that, because I probably phrased it wrong and why it matters so much?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is like the universal magic label. Like no matter, somebody's arguing with you, somebody's agreeing with you. Like there's never going to be an instance when you can't say, you know, you said you must have a great reason for saying that, you know, a version of that is it, it seems like you have a reason for saying that. Seems like you have a reason for doing it. Like somebody just calls you the worst name they could possibly call you. Seems like you got a great reason for saying, and they open up. Somebody completely agrees with what you just said. Seems like you got a reason, a great reason for saying, and they open up. Like that is, like if I, if I could, if I could teach people just that one label. And say, here's what I want you to do for the rest of today. Nothing, nothing else comes out of your mouth.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Just today, just today. It seems like you got reason, a great reason for saying that. You start that tomorrow morning first saying, at the end of the day, you got to say it fifteen times.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Post on my Instagram, what happened?

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  At the FBI negotiate. Tell me what kind of day you had. I guarantee you you're going to have a cooler day than you ever could have imagined. And what, first of all, well done. And that's a great example, like, and it, and it bought you time.

• 1:25:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  You know, and it stopped you from, uh, you know, counter launching your nuclear missiles. Mutual assured destruction, right?

• 1:25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Americans.

• 1:25:41Speaker 00

  Can I tell you the other thing it did? It not only connected us, I'm working on some content I'm creating right now. That I just stumbled into in my life, the last five years, where I talk about changing the lens in your life. When you're engaging with people of switching it, because you, we all see them and our relationship with them through our lens, our filter, our lens. And so I'm creating work right now that talks about creating an ability just to be a better human about, switch the lens and have your mom, see you through how your mom sees you. You know, how does she react to you last? And change the lens is the bottom line. And what it actually did in that moment for me. So so angry is it changed the lens and I actually saw me from him. And when I started to see what he sees in me.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  It helped me better understand his position, but also how to respond and react and connect with him, to be honest with you. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. Welcome back to the show, everybody. I have a man here who's become such a dear friend of mine and a trusted advisor. I've only had one other person on the show three times. So you are now breaking a record, brother. You are a ratings machine. But more importantly, you bring such value every time you're here. And when we're done talking. Every single time we've done this, I go, oh my gosh, this is going to get millions of downloads because it made me better.

• 1:27:07Speaker 00

  And every time I'm with you, I feel better. I smile more. I feel better about myself and I learned things about how to win, how to succeed, how to persevere. So Dean Graziosi, welcome back to the show, my brother. So good to be here. And I have to tell you, you're the best. You're the most gracious host ever. And to this day, still our two podcasts. Yep. Every day I send you some of them. Every day I'm like, best podcast ever, best. And I've, I've been on a lot. And it's because you're so gracious, because you care so much. And the reason people are following you and listening and I'm, and I know I'm, I'm speaking for the people listening is because they know you care. Thank you. They know that you have me here for a third time, not for any other reason, except you think it will bring more value. And I hope, I, I hope I don't let everybody down. You got a lot of options. You're here with us.

• 1:27:50Speaker 00

  It'll bring more value to them. And, and that's why I love your success. I love how your book is crushing it. Thank you. The world needs more Ed. So you've been honest on my show before. And by the way, this is completely correlated to everything we said. Because you said on the show before in the past, hey, man, first time around. Probably didn't have that thing wired the right way. Yeah. At some point I knew I wasn't probably with the right person for me, wonderful person, but not right person for me. I wasn't a world-class husband. Yep. You've, you've said this before. And you are a world-class husband to Lisa. It's also a true story. It is. When I think of you. And by the way, you're easily one of the most brilliant business minds I've ever met. You are probably the best

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  marketing mind I know. And you're a very diverse man between your understanding of real estate, human dynamics. Interpersonal relationships, energy, influence, I mean, all the different business markets that you're in. You're a very unique man. And I, you know, I hold you in the highest regard. You're one of the few people on the earth that I call for counsel in certain areas. So obviously. Same to you, brother. Thank you. And of all that, I don't admire you anywhere nearly as much for those things as I do for the kind of husband and father that you are. And I think one of the, I think you show me the quality of your relationships. I think Tony was the first to say that. I'll show you the quality of your life. You have such a massive high quality of life. And I believe that's because of your relationship with Lisa and your children. Why is it so good?

• 1:29:16Speaker 00

  In other words, what's been the key from you going to be a not very good husband the first time around? To like, if I think of the list of the best husbands I know that have the best real intimate, loving, real, not perfect relationships with people. I don't know that you don't occur first on my list. You know, maybe there's two or three people that all come up at the same time, but you come up on that list. What's been the key for that? And how important is it to your, your outward success in business? Because there's a correlation from when you met her to millions and millions more dollars in your bank account, too. It is. And, and I have to thank you for saying that. And you're, you're so kind, Ed. It's why your, your podcast does so great. You truly serve from your heart.

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  And thank you for the kind words. My wife's going to listen to this podcast and smile from ear to ear. She loves you, brother. She's, she's binging on your podcast right now. I'll tell you, first, first thing I'll share, just like a business. Is if you have the nerve to recognize that the reason your business might not have worked, or your marriage might not have worked, or your relationship might not have worked. If you're, if you have the self-awareness and the nerve to look in the mirror and say, it was probably you. Even if it wasn't all you, but if you have the nerve to say that. And I remember going through divorce and freaking out because, and I won't go deep on this because I think I shared it on a previous one, but I was freaking out before my kids because I was a child at divorce and I didn't want them to feel, you know, you know, you get it, right? Totally. So I was freaking out about that.

• 1:30:40Speaker 00

  And then I remember thinking to myself, I wrote down a list of what was unacceptable in a new relationship. What, what could not be and what could be. And I'm like, on my could list, Ed, was I need someone that that loves a crazy entrepreneur, that's into health, that's into personal growth, someone who will love my children. As if they're their own. That's, that's a task for a step person, step parent, right? And I, I wrote down this long list of all the things that were a must. And something hit me in that list and I'm like, damn, I have nerve to ask for that. Right, right. And in a moment, I recognized that for me to attract that, I had to become a better man.

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  It had nothing to do with finding the perfect woman. I had to be the better man to attract that type of woman. And I worked on me. I got a love coach. I, I unlocked the, the, you know, holding back the full extent of love and all, all the things we could share. But here's what I would say when it comes to relationships. Um, just this, you know, advice only from a guy that knows he messed up in the past, but I am in the greatest relationship in my life is imagine never keeping the, a couple of things that came out of what I realized. Imagine never keeping score in a relationship. Imagine having the nerve and the confidence to just go, I'm going to be the best version of me and I hope I get it back. And not say, you know, I've been, I've been doing, I watch relationships unravel.

• 1:32:06Speaker 00

  When someone says, the husband says, I work my tail off. I provide for her. She doesn't have to worry about anything. She doesn't have to pay the bills. She has someone to clean her house. She does all this and I come home and, and she's, you know, no dinner, keeping score. Right? You're keeping score. And when you start keeping score, soon as you start keeping score and it's not even, how do you go to bed that night and be intimate? How do you, how do you have passionate connection if you're keeping score and thinking I'm doing more than her? Or I'm taking care of the house. He has no idea what it's like to, to juggle two kids and take care of all this stuff. And he's out flying around, having fun, do, you know, he's working, but at least he gets to be out. I'm stuck in the house. Man, there's the intimacy's gone, right? And then once the intimacy's gone, then people start thinking, man, someone else would love the way I work.

• 1:32:51Speaker 00

  Someone else, the way I take care of things, right? So one is not keeping score. Here's the toughest one. That's big. Here's the toughest one. Imagine, I know this is going to sound crazy and some of you are going to be like, yeah, whatever, dreamer. Imagine feeling love when you give it rather than when you receive it. I fell in love with making my wife feel loved. I love for that woman to look at me and she like, there's five people in the room and she looks over and I'm staring at her like she's, like I just saw her for the first time and she catches me and I watch her face. We've been together five and a half years. I could stare at my wife when she doesn't realize it. And if she catches me, her cheeks will get red. Like she gets nervous even to, and she's like, like, what are you looking at? What are you looking at? And she'll come over. She's like, you, right?

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  I found, it took me years. I found a way to feel love when I make her feel loved. So I don't need her to love me back, but the, but here's the thing, right? Because I don't keep score, my wife tries to outdo me because I give, I feel love when I give her love. She tries to give me more love. Right? And I know maybe that takes the right partner and you might be thinking to yourself, yeah, Dean, you found the right partner. I, I, I would say I have an amazing woman, but I also know that I did all the opposite crap in the, in the previous one. And, and this is, I'm going to steal this from Tony. One of the best advice I ever heard was, imagine if you treated the end of relationship like the beginning, would there actually be an end?

• 1:34:15Speaker 00

  You remember in the beginning of a relationship, you're like, everything's bliss and you're all in and you're listening, eye contact. And you wouldn't dare look at your phone at dinner and now you're three years in and at dinner, she wants to tell you about what happened with the kids thing. And you're like, yeah, let me just, what was that? Hold on babe, let me just look at my phone one second. Would you have ever done that in the first week of your relationship or on a first date? And that just, that hit me and people a lot of times will ask me is like, I don't know where my relationship is. I'm like, what if for the next 90 days, you just went all in and pretended like you guys just met and you were dating again? To end in 90 days, you might have a completely different situation. That's so good. Yeah. That's so good. You are so good. I don't know. Bed your business life, having that part of it? Not even a question. Like the funny part is so many people say to me, what happened to you like four years ago, man?

• 1:35:00Speaker 00

  You just got more dynamic. You're more confident on stage. It was definitely that because the, the last thing I'll say is on this is I had more, I've had more success than I could have ever dreamed possible. A good zillion times more than what my dreams were. I have two, I'm now three and a fourth on the way, but I had two amazing children that were just humble and sweet and, and kind. And my business is thriving and good friends, but I didn't have love in my life and I didn't have connection and I wasn't a good husband. Right? Because I wasn't happy. And I probably, when you're incongruent, when not all things in your life are lined up. I never could have understood the power that while I was in it. I just said, no, I should be happy.

• 1:35:42Speaker 00

  No, my relationship isn't great, but we co-parent good and we got great kids and the business is good and we got the great house. I just wasn't in alignment. I was kind of living a lie. And when I finally shed that, and now I get to be the man, like, and I know you know me, but man, imagine the wish that if anybody put a hidden camera on you for a week. And then your wife, your friends and the world could watch it and go, wow, same guy on camera, same guy on a podcast, same guy when no one was watching. That congruency has taken the restrictions off. My business has doubled. My life has doubled. My happiness has doubled. I've attracted dear people in my life like you and other people because I, I think that I, I just get to be me at all times. Beautiful, brother. Gosh, it's so good.

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