While We Were Separated, My Husband Fell for Someone Else

On today’s episode, we hear about: A woman whose husband started seeing someone while they we’re separated A wife struggling to get her husband to open up about sex A woman unsure how to encourage her husband to make friends Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Need to talk to someone? BetterHelp is virtual therapy when it’s convenient for you. Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. These are BEST sheets and towels in the world. Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.  Getting lots of spam calls? DeleteMe can clean up your online presence for you. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Find peace every day. Hallow is the simplest way to slow down and get your head right for the day. Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. I have Helix Midnight mattresses in EVERY bedroom in my house. Get 20% off when you visit Helix Sleep and take the sleep quiz to see what you need! Get the exact same green and red powders that I take every day. Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi.  I took Thorne supplements way before I worked at Ramsey. Stoked that we can work together now! Get 25% for LIFE at Thorne.  Need a training plan? Accountability? Coaching? Trainwell has you covered. Go to Trainwell to get started! Head over to Poncho Outdoors to try the best outdoor performance shirt for yourself! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  So about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about eight months. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce and signing the papers, it was about six weeks, he had developed feelings for someone else.

• 0:19Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I mean, it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife.

• 0:29Dr. John Delony?

  What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, coming to you live from Nashville, except you're listening to this not live. So hopefully they edit out the parts where I'm not very good at this job. But for the last 20-plus years, I've been sitting with hurting people who are trying to figure out what's the next right move in my life. And that's what this show is, real people going through tough times, trying to figure out what's the next right move. And I don't know anybody right now, nobody. People who are struggling financially, people who are struggling emotionally, struggling with their kids, struggling with politics, struggling with like their marriages. I don't know anybody who's not sitting in it trying to figure out what's the next right move. And so if you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you.

• 1:10Dr. John Delony?

  JohnDeloney.com/ask, A-S-K, and fill out the form and it will go to Kelly 1.0 and 2.0 and they'll build up, build out the show and hopefully we'll have you on. Love to talk to you. Let's go out to Atlanta, Georgia and talk to Melissa. Hey, Melissa, what's up?

• 1:28Speaker 00

  Hi, Dr. John. So about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about eight months. And during that time, we got separated because I wasn't seeing any changed behaviors. And upon signing some papers to actually get a divorce, I wanted to have one last question with him or one last conversation, just to get more clarity and understanding. And that actually led to us reconciling. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce and signing the papers, it was about six weeks, he had developed feelings for someone else, a coworker.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  And I let him know that if we were going to move forward...

• 2:16Speaker 00

  I wasn't comfortable with him being friends with this person. So after some conversations, we decided to move forward with our marriage. And now that we've been married for almost 12 years, I just found out that he's still following on her on social media and, you know, we'll chat with her every now and again. And so I'm just feeling a little distrust. And I'm wondering how to move forward in my marriage when he doesn't see that as a problem.

• 2:44Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. Why'd you choose to separate at the beginning?

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Uh, well, we were first married for seven years and during that time, he didn't have a full-time job ever. And I really supported us through that while he was chasing his dreams and his career. And so for a little bit, I was like, okay, I signed up for this, for helping him kind of get to where he wants to be, but I didn't sign up for seven years of being the sole provider. And so there wasn't really any changed behavior whenever I would ask him about that. And I decided, you know, we, well, we decided, I guess, but really I prompted it.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  I said, I think we need to separate so you can understand the full responsibility of being an adult, paying your own bills, making your own money, and understand what I'm going through. And so we were still, you know, considering ourselves married. We still had date night and all that, but just not living in the same place.

• 3:51Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 3:53Dr. John Delony?

  What, what was his job? What was he trying to, to do?

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Uh, be a full-time musician.

• 4:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So he was out there grinding it? Was he laying around all day? Was he trying to book shows?

• 4:06Speaker 00

  He was at home practicing and some shows every now and again.

• 4:11Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 4:15Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 4:17Dr. John Delony?

  When you had the conversation with him about being friends with somebody, how'd that go?

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Well, he...

• 4:26Speaker 00

  I mean, it was basically more than a friendship. So, the context there is, he was really upset at me after I said I wanted to continue the marriage because he felt like he had already processed through the grief of that and then allowed himself to develop feelings for this coworker. And so, that was definitely a tension that we had to navigate. And he... I mean, he just didn't feel like it was a problem because there wasn't actually a relationship happening between them.

• 5:00Dr. John Delony?

  So, I guess the word that keeps coming to mind is clarity. Or something we say around the office all the time, and I've said to people for years, is clear is kind.

• 5:14Dr. John Delony?

  And so...

• 5:17Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me if I'm wrong here, but there's a difference in saying,

• 5:24Dr. John Delony?

  "I'm signing up to follow your dreams. I'm increasingly frustrated that you're not making any money, or you're not moving the family along in a way that I want to." So, back then, was there ever a conversation about, "I know you have this dream, I know you want to do this. At the end of every month, for us, we need you to bring in this many dollars."

• 5:53Dr. John Delony?

  Or was it always...

• 5:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:54Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, tell me about that.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  So, there were definitely conversations around that. And, you know, I said, "This is just the way the land, this is what has happened thus far, and I'm not upset at that because there is some amount of investment that needs to go into this, but I need your help. This is the amount of money we need you to bring in." And, I mean, he's...

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Really never had a full-time job at that point. And so it was difficult for him to understand what that meant and how he could do it. And so he would get small jobs every year and again, and it wasn't, wasn't really ever enough. And it wasn't actually a behavior change. And so I, I mean, that was the reason why we got separated and when we did, that actually did work. He went, he got a job, found roommates, paid his own bills and was responsible for all of that. So because of that behavior change and learning about it, at the end of it, we decided to move forward.

• 7:04Dr. John Delony?

  And so where are you now?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Well, now I have, so since then I have asked him, you know, recently finding out that he still is in contact with her. I expressed, you know, I feel really uncomfortable with this because she messaged you after you told her we were working on our marriage. Something like you deserve, you know, to be with someone who treats you better or something like that.

• 7:30Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, that's super fair. Then that means yes, I, she's not getting the message and that, that deserves a total cutoff. Not talking to you, e- end of communication, totally get that.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:41Dr. John Delony?

  And so how can I help you?

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'm just wondering what, how I move forward with this? Or what's the conversation I can have with him to help him understand the severity of it?

• 7:56Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I mean, it, it sounds like the, the language you're using, it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:05Dr. John Delony?

  And he's shown the ability to, when he's on his own, to go do his own thing.

• 8:12Dr. John Delony?

  But there's something about y'all's dynamic that he immediately falls into, yes ma'am. Or ignoring you, like teenage boys do with their moms, right?

• 8:21Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:22Dr. John Delony?

  And, and it, what I'm wondering is one of two things. One is, um...

• 8:31Dr. John Delony?

  He has maybe what I would call an emotional, I'll call it romantic, because that's kinda just silly. An emotional connection with somebody else that he doesn't have with you, because you're his mom.

• 8:43Dr. John Delony?

  And he likes the idea of a girlfriend. That's one idea. Another idea is he's just a complete and utter man-child liar.

• 8:53Dr. John Delony?

  Or the third thing is a weird combination of both, which is, you married a musician with dreams of both of y'all hitting it big, right? He hits it big, and then you get to go along for the ride, and that creates a cool life for y'all. And then you would say, "Hey, we need this dollar amount. I need you to, you have to go make $650 this month." Like, through any number of combination of things, shows, whatever, but you gotta make this much money, because this is how much it takes to run this house. And maybe he would play one show and work some odd jobs and come up with 500 of that, or 600 of that. But for you, that finish line kept moving. And it was like, "No, no, I don't mean get a, get a part-time job to get that 650. I meant you need to get a real job."

• 9:38Dr. John Delony?

  And you see what I'm saying? Like, the bar just keeps moving and moving. "I don't want you to be friends." "Okay, I won't. I'm gonna go sit down with her and say, "I thought I was getting divorced. I was already starting to look over the fence, and I'm not doing that anymore. This is over." And then she's like, "Cool," and reaches back out, like, "Are you sure?" And you see, you get what I'm saying? And I'm, I'm just wondering if, if he is in a position, I'm not saying what he's doing is right. In fact, if he was on the phone right now, I would, I would be all over him for still having contact with this person. But I'm wondering if he is in a position where he can ever win with you. Or is the finish line keep moving and moving because you're just wholly unsatisfied with him as a guy that sounds like you don't respect him? And it's hard to be romantically involved with somebody that you do not respect.

• 10:24Dr. John Delony?

  Are you a safe place for him to come home to?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  I believe so.

• 10:28Dr. John Delony?

  And he can, he can just drop down and tell you what's going on in his heart and his mind and with his music and with his songs and his writing and all like you're a safe place for that.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:37Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Then have you, have you sat down and said, I feel less loved and less safe when you're talking to this person? That's why.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:47Dr. John Delony?

  And he said, I don't really care how you feel or what you want?

• 10:51Speaker 00

  He said, well, she's just a friend. I don't know what you want me to do.

• 10:55Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, then what he's doing is he's saying, I'm choosing her over you. It's just that simple.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  He's choosing whatever friendship that is over my feelings and I don't really know what next steps are.

• 11:13Dr. John Delony?

  I think you do know what the next steps are. They're just really challenging. But let's sit down and let's use I statements.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:21Dr. John Delony?

  And maybe you spend some time really getting to the bottom of what you are experiencing.

• 11:29Dr. John Delony?

  And say the words, when you enter into that conversation with you and then you and then you,

• 11:36Dr. John Delony?

  then he's gonna play defense. I don't understand why you're being like this. I don't understand why that. And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a different, there's a different path to get to where you really want to get to, which is, why is my husband, the guy that I'm trying to build something with? Why is he getting emotional connection? Why is he getting his needs met with another woman? That makes me feel small and less than. Because then you start trying to defend yourself with, I make all this money. I have a job in the business world. I'm letting you go play music for a living. I'm, right? And now we're into scorekeeping. Then we're getting into contempt. I am somehow better than you in this relationship. And so why are you doing this?

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Well, I've definitely been there before and have worked through that. And so, yeah, I completely agree that there, there's a lot of things that I need to do on my side to maybe communicate that better. And

• 12:35Speaker 00

  I certainly have expressed it in that way. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

• 12:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  And

• 12:42Dr. John Delony?

  What's the thing beneath, what's the thing beneath uncomfortable?

• 12:47Speaker 00

  What's the thing? When I say that, what do I mean?

• 12:50Dr. John Delony?

  Your body makes you feel uncomfortable, but feelings are simply the lights on a dashboard of your car.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:57Dr. John Delony?

  What is that discomfort? What is it signaling to your body?

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that I'm not enough.

• 13:03Dr. John Delony?

  There you go.

• 13:05Dr. John Delony?

  That's what he needs to hear.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:09Dr. John Delony?

  I feel like not enough.

• 13:13Dr. John Delony?

  And I've tried to get your love by making a bunch of money. I've tried to get your love by letting you go do this stuff that I still think is kind of boyish and childish, but go be you. And I don't feel like I'm enough.

• 13:28Dr. John Delony?

  And then maybe asking a hard question, do I make you feel like you're not enough?

• 13:34Dr. John Delony?

  But that's the only way you're going to get to the true root of this issue. And if he says, I just can't talk to you about this stuff and I like her company more than yours.

• 13:46Dr. John Delony?

  Then you got a guy who is invested in another woman. You're going to have to deal with that reality, which might put you back at that table of, I don't want to be married to you then.

• 13:56Dr. John Delony?

  Often though, when people get to the underneath, that you make me feel uncomfortable, you're making me feel like this, instead of saying, I feel less than. That's almost always the place where the only true healing can happen is there.

• 14:13Dr. John Delony?

  Because my hope is, he's a guy who doesn't want to make his wife feel less than.

• 14:19Dr. John Delony?

  My hope is, he's a guy who has figured out, I can't talk and be fully myself in my own home, and so I'm doing something that's wrong and unethical and not integrous by reaching out to other women to get that. But that's the true nature here. And that's the conversation it feels like y'all are avoiding. Maybe you haven't avoided that, and you've actually said those things in the past, and if so, then you've got a hard decision to make about, you've got a husband who is emotionally invested in another woman, and is having his needs met there, and that's emotional infidelity. And you're gonna have to deal with that. And I can't tell you how to deal with that. Whether you leave that marriage, you make peace, that's gonna be your call to make. But I always want people to take that one last step, and go one layer deeper and say, here's what my body's trying

• 15:02Dr. John Delony?

  to get my attention about. I feel small and less than in my own house. I'm trying to love you, and I'm not getting through. And I'll also say this to you and to everybody, listen, it feels like when you come through a big monumental moment in a marriage, like you guys did, you were at the table to sign divorce papers, and you walked away, and you said, no, let's do this again. It feels like that will be the once and for all. That's the last time we'll ever come to a crossroads. And I guess what I want to pass along to everybody is, marriage is full of multiple crossroads. And you can look at those one of two ways. You can look at crossroads that come up on multiple occasions as, this is the last straw. One time, it was about money. Now, it's about, I'm asking you to not follow

• 15:46Dr. John Delony?

  somebody on Instagram. Now, it's about, you're yelling at our kids, and I don't want you to yell. You can, you can say, strike three, you're out. I'm out of this thing. Or, you can look at it this way. My wife said this once, and I love it. She said, because of the hard stuff we've been through, I know there's nothing that we can't overcome. So when we come to these new crossroads, and these new crossroads, it's a moment to exhale. Because we've been through hard stuff before, and so we can get through hard stuff again. All that's gonna matter, though, is if both of you can get to the real root and say,

• 16:22Dr. John Delony?

  Here's where I am on this one. And hear me say, everybody, I think he's wrong. I think he's in the wrong. But there may be a context to his action, and that's what I want you to explore. Thanks for the call, sister. I really, really appreciate it. And if he ever wants to call, I'd love to talk to him, too. We come back, a woman wants to know how to help her husband open up about sex.

• 16:43Dr. John Delony?

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• 17:28Dr. John Delony?

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• 18:07Dr. John Delony?

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• 19:26Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go up to Canada, to Edmonton, and talk to Rachel. Hey, Rachel, what's up?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Hey, John. So my husband and I have been married for almost 20 years. We both come from conservative backgrounds. Over the past few years, I've been doing a lot of inner work to heal from shame and harm caused by the church and purity culture. And as a result, I now feel a sense of freedom in this area and have been the one initiating conversations with my husband about sex. He will engage, but says the topic still makes him uncomfortable and has said he would honestly prefer not to talk about it at all. How can I help my husband be more comfortable discussing sex?

• 20:01Dr. John Delony?

  Wow, so tell me, like, give me an example of a situation where he just shuts down.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  So I shared with him, like, one of my fantasies, and he just listened and didn't really respond at all. I have asked him, like, what turns you on? Like, for me, it's this thing or that thing. Well, what gets you excited? And he is like, when you're naked, and doesn't say anything else. And I'm like, okay.

• 20:27Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, the simple male mind. All the guys in the booth are just nodding, like, well, that's kind of it, so.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  But I'm like, there has to be more, like.

• 20:38Dr. John Delony?

  I guess there's two sides of this. Number one, tell me why there has to be more. What if?

• 20:46Dr. John Delony?

  What if his ultimate fantasy is you?

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:53Dr. John Delony?

  And that may not be the case, and I know there's deeper layers to this, but I just want to hold that potential. What if the source of his fantasy is you?

• 21:06Speaker 02

  I guess I never thought about it that way, because in my head, I'm like, oh, you know, I assumed you would like this thing, or what about this, or I have fantasies about doing this with you, like, what about you? And he'll respond like, nothing. And I'm like, oh.

• 21:18Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, but when you try to enact some of your fantasies with him, does he go along with it? Is he all in?

• 21:25Speaker 02

  No, he'll be like, oh, that's crazy, dirty, or just listen and not really say anything. And then it just makes me feel kind of stupid for being so vulnerable.

• 21:33Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, there it is.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And I feel like it wasn't well received.

• 21:35Dr. John Delony?

  So, that, I think, is the first thing I want to talk through. You've done all this work to heal from shame.

• 21:44Dr. John Delony?

  But you moved from your parents' approval to your church's approval.

• 21:50Dr. John Delony?

  And now you've wiped that up. You haven't wiped it clean, that's not fair. You have unhooked yourself from those judgments, but you outsourced it to him.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:02Dr. John Delony?

  And now he's like, yeah, that's just, that's kind of out there. And that nine-year-old girl, or that 17-year-old girl, or that 22-year-old girl goes whoosh all the way back again. Yet another person telling you that the way you feel about sex is somehow wrong or dirty or not enough.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 22:21Dr. John Delony?

  So tell me about the outsourcing of that.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Could you clarify your question?

• 22:27Dr. John Delony?

  Do you feel like you're gross for having a fantasy that you want to try out with your husband?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't want to feel gross because I'm so happy that I don't feel shame anymore.

• 22:40Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Except you do feel shame when he looks at you and doesn't answer you back.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like, kind of like, he's judging me.

• 22:48Dr. John Delony?

  There you go. Is he really judging you? Because if he is, and he's a jerk, and we can take a different path here. Is he judging you? Or is he just saying, oh, I'm not into that fantasy, but good on you?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  I don't think he's judging. I think it is just kind of like, oh, that's a crazy fantasy of yours, but yeah, he's not into it.

• 23:06Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 23:08Dr. John Delony?

  Does it feel lonely or isolating? Or you feel nuts? What do you feel?

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess I just feel like I'm so excited and like all in in this area and I feel like he just wishes I would have stayed in this box.

• 23:22Dr. John Delony?

  Ah, there you go. Is that a story you're telling yourself or has he told you that story?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  That's a story I'm telling myself.

• 23:29Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 23:33Dr. John Delony?

  Is there anything in your mind or your, more than your mind, in your experience that says he doesn't love being with you? He doesn't like making love to you, doesn't like going along with some of your wild stuff? Not, maybe not the extent fantasies, but like, "All right, I want to try this tonight." He's like, "Absolutely not. We're not doing that. We are going old school missionary. We're done in 30 seconds." And we're like, or does he, or does he go along with you?

• 23:57Speaker 02

  He sometimes will be flexible, but he's, he's a man of routine, for sure.

• 24:05Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  He just likes the good old classic.

• 24:08Dr. John Delony?

  A man of routine. That's fantastic. Good old classic. And just know that millions of men listening to this are just banging their dashboard in their car right now like, "Why?", right?

• 24:21Dr. John Delony?

  And so, so have you gone, again, I feel like this is kind of a recurring theme in the show. Have you gone that layer deeper and said, "Hey, I've put some things on the table. I've tried to be vulnerable." And when you just kind of blow it off, I feel that deep sense of shame again. I feel like you don't like the person who I, I don't feel like you like a sexualized wife that wants to be with you all the time. And, and be curious and be playful and be exploratory together.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've said that. And we're just in different places right now, which is fine. I don't think anybody's desires match up 100% of the time. And so for me, I'm the one with the higher interest and he's not. And so I think it's harder to, for him to want to be all in when he's just mentally not.

• 25:08Dr. John Delony?

  Why, why, why isn't he mentally in?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Um, he's sure, you know, he's, he feels nothing lately. Like he doesn't feel excitement. He doesn't feel joy. He doesn't look forward to anything. And we've talked about, you know, him possibly seeking out therapy or seeing a doctor and things like that. And he isn't interested. And so, um, you know, just any excitement at all. Never mind when it comes to the bedroom. He's just, um, he's a good, loving husband and he'll participate, he'll participate, but.

• 25:43Dr. John Delony?

  Is, is that?

• 25:46Dr. John Delony?

  How much of this story is that?

• 25:50Dr. John Delony?

  That you're watching the life drain out of, of the guy that you love?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought about that lately. He hasn't been, you know, when you meet, of course, like two decades ago, it's, you're different. You're teenagers. You have no responsibilities, no kids. Um, but he was definitely more full of life and vibrant and fun and funny. And, um, he hasn't been that way for a long time.

• 26:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Dr. John Delony?

  And is there some part of you, the person raised to people pleaser to please everybody at your church and please everybody at your house that is trying to run around and trying to solve that for him? Or that's taking ownership?

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Um, it's hard for me not to, um, feel his mood. Like if he's depressed and I feel depressed and I'm like, how can I fix it? Or if he's, you know, angry, I feel like I turtle and I did something wrong. Like it's hard for me not to feel his emotions.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Um, but I know that I can't fix anything. That's up to him. That's his job.

• 26:47Dr. John Delony?

  I know. But can I just tell you, you're a pretty amazing wife?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 26:53Dr. John Delony?

  Um, this is when a lot of wives cash out.

• 26:59Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm, I'm so grateful to know there's a wife like you out there that loves her husband so much that she sees him dying in his own skin and is really trying to make an effort to reach out to him. That's awesome.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 27:12Dr. John Delony?

  And when we're live such busy lives, you'll have kids too?

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 27:17Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, you got kids running around, you just got chaos everywhere. A lot of times, especially in certain seasons, the only only thing we have left to get our pulse rate up is not on a screen somewhere is sex. And I, man, I high five you for getting like going and going back and mining your depths and getting your healing done and for exhaling. Honestly, for his sake and for your marriage's sake, I really think you'll need to go talk to somebody and I know it can be hard when you have a stubborn husband who just is like, I ain't doing that or I'm too busy or whatever. Um, but I think it's worth saying, hey, I'm not doing a great job of communicating with you and I'd love for you to go talk to somebody with me because I want to do a better job.

• 28:01Dr. John Delony?

  It would mean a lot if you came with me.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  So what if I have said that and he's already said he doesn't want to?

• 28:10Dr. John Delony?

  Then I think the next layer is, is I'm feeling unsafe and unloved in this house. Because that's the truth.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:17Dr. John Delony?

  Do you ever say this? I need you? I want you?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do need and want him. I don't know how often I say that, but.

• 28:33Dr. John Delony?

  I can just tell you, I was on the road for the last two months. I was touring all over the place and I got home and things are always a little bit just everyone's just trying to figure out their routines. And I missed finals week for my son and I was just out and about. And my wife just said a week ago, sitting by each other on the front porch, looking out over our property, she said, I think I realized why I was just out of sorts. And I was like, why is that? And she said, I need you. I'm gonna tell you right now, dude, I got a great marriage, but that felt like a cup of cold water in a desert.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 29:09Dr. John Delony?

  There's a lot of conversation about quote unquote mental load that women carry and it's exorbitant, it's crazy, it's a lot.

• 29:18Dr. John Delony?

  It's astounding, the dentist appointments and the schools out and the lunches and all of it and the bills, like there's so much, I get it. I think there's been a misrepresentation or a lack of understanding or not even conversation about the mental load that men carry. It's so heavy and it's way out into the future and it's not always real, but it's so heavy. And most men I know are walking around their lives feeling like they're just a failure at everything. And so some, a wife reaching out and grabbing their husband's hand figuratively are literally saying, "I need you. This is a path. You can love me and I'm asking you to come with me. I'm not telling you, you need to. I'm asking you, please come with

• 30:02Dr. John Delony?

  me." That might be the shot and all I can say is that worked with me. And I thank God every day of my life that my wife asked me to do that because it unlocked healing in me that I didn't know needed to be healed. And I think I'm an infinitely better husband and a better communicator and a better dad, better citizen, because my wife said, "I need you." Thanks for the call, sister. I'm really, really grateful. And hey, I would be honored if he would call in. He probably won't, but man, I would love to talk to him. That would be awesome because I've been in that seat before. I'd love for him to call. We come back, a woman asks how to raise concern for her husband's lack of friends. So look, we've

• 30:44Dr. John Delony?

  got a theme on this show. Be right back. Poncho is back as a supporter of this show and I'm stoked about it. If you have seen me speaking on stages across the country, if you watch this show, or if you recently ran into me when I was fishing with my son out at Gulf Shores in Alabama, or if you've even seen me mowing my acres out here in Nashville, I'm almost always wearing Poncho shirts, inside and outside. Poncho makes the absolute best outdoor performance shirts for men, period. Whether they are sponsoring the show or not, you're going to almost always see me wearing Poncho. And of course, I love their denims and their insanely soft flannels, but now that it's super hot outside, I'm wearing Poncho shirts outside too. They're lightweight and they're breathable.

• 31:27Dr. John Delony?

  Yet they're still tough enough to handle whatever chaos my day brings. And I'm talking everything from travel to being up to my chest fishing in the surf or doing yard work. These shirts move with you, not against you. They dry fast and they don't cling or bunch up and they come in slim or regular fits. So you're not walking around like a circus tent or like a sausage link. Head over to ponchooutdoors.com/daloni and try them for yourself. And right now, new customers get $10 off their first poncho purchase. Just sign up with your email. Go to ponchooutdoors.com/daloni and trust me, poncho ultra light shirts will turn into your summer essentials too.

• 32:06Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Charlotte, North Carolina, let's talk to Morgan. Hey Morgan, what's up?

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Hey, how are you?

• 32:13Dr. John Delony?

  I'm all right. How about you?

• 32:16Speaker 03

  I'm getting excited to cannonball into this question, as I've heard you say.

• 32:21Dr. John Delony?

  Let's do it. Cannonball, top rope. Let's do it.

• 32:25Speaker 03

  So, how do I kindly encourage my massively introverted husband to make friends? Because I am his only best friend. And if I, if something happened to me, he would have his family who are lovely people.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  But he has no like really close male friendships. He did in college, but those have dissipated. They still like group text occasionally, but I just, am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Ant hill? No, molehill.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Is, is it, how do I go about this? Cause I just, I'm lost.

• 33:12Dr. John Delony?

  No, I mean, there's, there's multiple things here, but no, your instincts are right. Men are lonely themselves to death in record numbers.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. They are Netflixing themselves to death. They are gambling themselves to death. They are lonely themselves. They're pornographying themselves to death. They're, they're just slowly dying.

• 33:33Dr. John Delony?

  Most of that, I think, comes from, there's no more shared purpose. There is zero shared purpose anymore.

• 33:42Dr. John Delony?

  It doesn't exist. And.

• 33:49Dr. John Delony?

  I think there's not a, there's not a, like, that's why there's those long text threads. That was the last, like, there's reasons why 40-year-old men get together and still talk about that old football game that one time. Because that was the last time most men were a part of something bigger than themselves.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he, like, I'm flying out to see my best friend tomorrow, and I'm coming back Sunday, and I know while I'm at work, I know exactly what he's gonna do. He's gonna, while I'm visiting her, he's gonna go to work, he's gonna come home, take care of our dogs, cook himself dinner, watch a show or read a book, and go to bed. Like, I could, I would bet my left arm that that is what he's gonna do. And it's just, it's not great, and it makes me sad, and I don't know what to do about it.

• 34:36Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, but, but, let's not, let's not judge him for the life that he's choosing. Get to the deeper pathology here, the, the deeper struggle here, to use a not nerdy word. Are you, are you being asked to carry a disproportionate, or, let me ask it this way. Have you become his trash dump? You're the only person he talks to about politics, about religion, about work, about money, about people, and you just get dumped on every day?

• 35:03Speaker 03

  I would describe it, not as getting dumped on, I mean, but yes, I'm pretty much his everything. I'm his best friend, and we get, like, he is a lovely human, like, we get along great, we have a ton of fun together, and he does have a coworker who he's, like, a previous coworker, I'm sorry, who he hangs out with, like, once every three to six months, and she's great, like, they get along great, um, but, like, that's kind of the extent of his socialization, and he had, like, some really good friends in college, but...

• 35:38Dr. John Delony?

  But is he happy? Is he happy? Is he happy, or are, are you seeing something in him that you're worried about?

• 35:46Speaker 03

  So, we check in, and I ask, like, hey, are you happy? I haven't, more, normally it's more in a romantic sense, um, but yes, like, he says he's happy. The last check-in we had, um, was, like, a couple weeks ago, and it was great. Like, he said, hey, I am happy, and it was, um... Little context, I was having a panic attack. He sat through it with me and part of the panic attack was something that he said one way that I heard a totally different way.

• 36:22Dr. John Delony?

  What was that?

• 36:23Speaker 03

  And he said. Um, basically, so we, it was a Saturday and um, I, we, we'd just come back from the grocery store and he was about to go outside to mow the lawn and we'd do all that fun man stuff. Um, and he, we were gonna go see a movie and I basically was just like, I don't think we have time. And so what he said was, it's okay, I'm used to it. And what he, that he genuinely meant that like, it's okay, like it's not a big deal. I heard it as I am unhappy, we get to, we don't get to go, you know, do things like what I want. And that's not what

• 37:05Speaker 03

  he meant. That's how I heard it from my own issues and trauma and blah, blah, blah. So, um, I had a pa- panic attack. So I was kind of like the needle that, um, you know, or the straw that breaks a camel's back. And, uh, he saw me have it. He sat through it with him before with me and held my hand and, you know, been great. Um, and so he went outside after I finished and then he came back in with like, hey, I just want you to know, I'm really sorry. I said, like, it came out that way. I love you and I'm happy. And that's the, that's the context that he said. So.

• 37:39Dr. John Delony?

  So it.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  He was completely unbothered that he doesn't have any friends. And so I don't know if I'm making a big deal, but I know if he didn't have me, he would not have any close relationships. And it kind of.

• 37:51Dr. John Delony?

  But hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 37:52Speaker 03

  It bothers me.

• 37:53Dr. John Delony?

  I think the two things. One, he may be such a good man in his mind.

• 38:01Dr. John Delony?

  That he always wants to make sure he's available for you in case something happens.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Hmm, I had never thought of that.

• 38:08Dr. John Delony?

  He may love you so much that he, how dare he go waste time drinking beers with some buddies watching the fights. Cause if my wife has a panic attack, if my wife isn't okay, I'm gonna be here.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  Hmm, that's true, but...

• 38:25Dr. John Delony?

  And, and, hold on, hold on. And it may be that you are making up a story in your mind that if it weren't for you, he would have nothing. A harder reality is,

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 38:39Dr. John Delony?

  if you were to go away, he might have lots of fun and friends.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  (laughing)

• 38:46Dr. John Delony?

  You know why?

• 38:46Speaker 03

  No, I mean, that's true.

• 38:47Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, you know why? Because he did before.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:52Dr. John Delony?

  Just sit in it, hold on, just sit in it. He did before. And so the reality is, he just might. And you have to ask yourself, whoa, if he was going out to hang out with friends once a weekend and once or twice, would I be okay with that? Or if he texted me and said, hey, I'm running 30 minutes late, and I spun off into a panic attack again because I'm so close to the edge most of the time? Would I be okay if he wasn't there to sit with me and ride it out?

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Well, and, and he, I mean, yes, I've had them when I'm completely alone. Um, and I'm medicated, like, I mean, it doesn't happen like every day or anything. Um, but I don't know if that's an issue or not. Um, because he had, what I was trying to get to earlier was, so he had a really good group of friends in college. Um, and he was even supposed to go on a boys' trip with them last November. He canceled, not because of me. They, they, they like to party and he's just past that in his life.

• 40:05Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  And they were just talking about some things that made him uncomfortable. And so he just bailed and made up an excuse. And so, but I encouraged him, I was like, you should totally go. Have a great time. I'll take care of the dogs. Don't worry about anything. And so, those are the only other people that he has, um, like even remote friendships with. And they group text occasionally, but that's it. And so, I don't really know what to do.

• 40:40Dr. John Delony?

  So he, here's a path forward. One is, I would sit down with him and say, hey, I want us to make more friends around town.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:52Dr. John Delony?

  And you're about to get on a plane and fly away to your friends? I want you to start being vocal about, I want us to have friends locally here. And my wife and I, I left to my own devices, I would end up with my old text threads. And I'd hang out with nobody ever, ever.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:12Dr. John Delony?

  And I would go hunting in the fall with people, but here's what happens when you go hunting. Nobody says anything. You're not allowed to talk.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:18Dr. John Delony?

  And we'd go sit in the woods next to each other and say no words. And then I'd go and be like, alright, way to go. And then I'd help somebody drag a deer out of the woods. And then I'd be like, man, I hung out with my friends.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean? And so, left to my own devices, I could get there really quickly. And here's the, here's, I've dug into why, here's why. I have no shared experiences with somebody. And in a man's world, leading with emotions or with vulnerability is a way to get yourself excommunicated from the party.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:51Dr. John Delony?

  And so, this sounds so ridiculous, but when I say, hey, we're having a couple over for dinner. And my wife's like, awesome, who is it? And I tell them, and she's like, great, that's cool. Now I've got a shared purpose. That's why guys go stand around a grill, because they can pretend that they're doing a thing.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:09Dr. John Delony?

  Because in their normal day, if I just sit on a couch and be like, hey, bro, how's your heart? It'd be like, alright, I'm not coming back here. But when we grill together and we're shoulder to shoulder, and I can say, man, I've been worried about my finances lately. He can go without making eye contact. Yeah, I know, man.

• 42:28Dr. John Delony?

  And, hey, can you help me build a fence? Can you help me move a thing? Andrew, who's over here running the, the screens right now? I asked him, can I hire you for a Saturday to teach me how to weld? And teach my son how to weld. I want my son to learn how to do it more than me. I think in the world he's inheriting, he's gonna have to learn how to weld. So I wanna know how to do it. And he knows how to do it.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:50Dr. John Delony?

  But I didn't ask Andrew to come over to my house and share his feelings with me. But I promise you, through welding, uh, uh, spending a day welding together, he'll learn a lot about my feelings and how insecure I am. You get what I'm saying? And so, setting up things that we can technically do together.

• 43:10Dr. John Delony?

  Or that there are shared experiences, or in our house, we had to put one on the calendar. We will have one couple, we'll have one group of people to our house once per week, period.

• 43:22Dr. John Delony?

  That's just a rule we made in the house, and we don't always stick to it, but most of the time, we have somebody over at the house.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:29Dr. John Delony?

  And it's a wacky cascade of characters that comes over to our house, and I love it. I love it for us, I love it for our kids, I love it for my friends, like, all of it. And I've made some great friends out of it.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  So, more of like a, hey, let's do this together type of thing?

• 43:44Dr. John Delony?

  I think absolutely. So, that's my thought there, Morgan. I think you have to wrestle with, he doesn't see, seem that there's a problem. And so, feeling the problem in your chest, and then saying, you need to go do this to fix my, my angst, that's a recipe for things not getting fixed. Or for him going to sit at a bar with a couple of dudes and being like, hey, hey, have you tried the hot, hot wings? No. Cool. Alright, man, see you later. Like, big gulps, huh? Like, it's, it's just not a recipe for that.

• 44:19Dr. John Delony?

  Shared experiences? Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Hey, when we come back, I have a very important, um, segment that I've never done before, so hang with me.

• 44:34Dr. John Delony?

  It's Cozy Earth time! Listen, hearing the term nine to five, god, what a drag. It makes me think of a boss with coffee breath, or coworkers that have no boundaries, or some of you are working from home with kids running around and dogs barking, everyone acting bonkers, ugh. That's why Cozy Earth wants to make your five to nine, the time that matters most, the most comfortable part of your day. Cozy Earth is a big part of how my wife and I make our home warm and cozy. My wife gets into her Cozy Earth PJs as early as possible, without it being weird, and I love Cozy Earth t-shirts and pants, because they're soft and breathable, but they're also tough. They survive my front yard wrestling matches with my daughter, and my long, slow jogs with my son.

• 45:19Dr. John Delony?

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• 46:00Dr. John Delony?

  That's cozylearth.com/deloney and code DELONY to save 40% off your entire order. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and stay cozy.

• 46:12Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we're back. So a few weeks ago, I was on tour, and I had an opportunity to meet with a woman who's become a great friend of mine over the last five years, and she is an executive at BetterHelp, the counseling service that I recommend online that's available 24/7, not 24/7, but it's available online or on your phone. And we had a great conversation backstage, and she sent me a study. And I just wanted to just call out, I'm always skeptical of studies, especially that are done by companies, right? Because I always think, man, there's gonna be a bias there.

• 46:49Dr. John Delony?

  But I read through it, and I think this study's exactly what I'm reading in the regular literature, and it's especially what I'm experiencing with people over and over and over again. And so, the name of the study, they named it is "The State of Stigma." And here's some of the data points in the study. 76% of people, that's 7.5 out of 10 people, believe that talking to a therapist is actually helpful. Six out of 10 people, though, believe that society discourages people from actually

• 47:34Dr. John Delony?

  talking to somebody. And if you dump men into that conversation, as some of the calls on this show, I think it's even higher. There's this idea that if I go talk to a counselor, if I go talk to a therapist, I have failed in my ability to fix myself. We don't think that about air conditioning. We don't think that about our roof. We don't think about a crack in our driveway. But for some reason, we think if I have to go talk to somebody, I have failed me. Or I can just put the answers into ChatGPT as though the answer is what I'm looking for.

• 48:09Dr. John Delony?

  Here's another one. Gen Z is highly engaged in mental health content. They scroll these things. They listen to my show and other shows like it. They are scrolling TikTok. But they're very distrustful of therapy, saying that a therapist would never understand me. Here's another one. Those spending four plus hours on social media are more likely to feel judged and skeptical of therapy. By the way, if you pull that data further, people spending four plus hours on social media feel like everyone in every circle is judging them. That's why there is caustic literature about girls, especially teenage

• 48:52Dr. John Delony?

  girls, and being on social media a lot. And if you add different types of behaviors, like violence behaviors or checking out completely and just playing video games 19 hours a day, boys are experiencing it too. It just looks different. The pathology is expressed in different ways. Here's another one. Parents of young kids strongly believe in therapy but face high stigma and high cost and high time barriers. I don't have time to leave work, drive for 45 minutes in traffic, go talk to a therapist for an hour, and then drive 45 minutes back. If I'm working hourly, I just burn three hours of wage, not to mention how much it cost to go see the therapist.

• 49:33Dr. John Delony?

  So here's the deal, there is stigma when it comes to getting help. And I am so, one of the highest honors I've ever been able to experience in my life is the millions of people that listen to the show or watch the show. It's amazing. And I get your letters and I get your DMs and I get your emails and I get so much great feedback on when I'm on the road and thousands of people come out to a live event, just the lines and I'm signing books and, man, it means the world to me that you're picking up ideas and learning things. That's amazing. And you're applying them in your homes with your kids, with your spouses, with your boyfriends and girlfriends, with your workplace. That's so great. That's why I do this show. And

• 50:15Dr. John Delony?

  there's a percentage of people, a large percentage of people, that like myself, need to go sit down and exhale in front of somebody. And be seen and be heard for the first time. So I just want to say this. A, I want to thank my buddy at BetterHelp and I want to thank the BetterHelp people that like when there's lines of like, "Yeah, you can come see this therapist, there's a six-month waiting list." Or, "Yes, you can come see this person, but you gotta pay $200 because they only take cash and they don't have $200, right?" I want to say this out loud. If you're struggling with something, please, go talk to somebody. Call one of your buddies. I promise you, one of your buddies is going through something

• 51:00Dr. John Delony?

  similar. I promise you. Before you blow your marriage up, before you text that man or that woman back, before you go spend money that you don't have, talk to somebody. Talk to a friend. If you're a person of faith and you have a safe religious community, not that someone's gonna beat you up for having thoughts or fears or anxieties, go talk to somebody at your local church. If you can, go see a counselor or a therapist in your local community, please go do that. I do that regularly. And if cost is an issue, if time is an issue, if convenience is an issue, if just the anonymity is an issue, please reach out to my friends at BetterHelp.

• 51:45Dr. John Delony?

  We have to, as a community, as a society, we have to go through that stigma. We've got, the world needs a whole bunch of regulated adults. Because things are skidding off the tracks. And look around at what you've tried to do to solve your anxiety, to solve your depression, to solve your yelling at your kids, to solve your frustration. Every time your spouse says something, you just go into a hole, or you want to come out swinging. What we're doing isn't working. And it's strange that all the literature points back to other people are the solution for so much of these issues.

• 52:23Dr. John Delony?

  So, please, jump right through that stigma. I know it's real, I've felt it myself. I remember the first time I took anxiety meds and I sat at my kitchen table and I wept. I felt like such a loser and a failure. I've been there, I've been there, I've been there. Walk through the stigma and reach out and talk to somebody. And I'm telling you right now, man, I'm especially talking to you.

• 52:48Dr. John Delony?

  I don't care how many tattoos you have, I don't care how big your truck is, I don't care how much you think you're failing your wife or your kids. Call somebody.

• 52:58Dr. John Delony?

  I love you guys.

• 53:00Dr. John Delony?

  Bye.