Off the Record With Nedra Tawwab

📋 Weekly Rundown (your weekly marriage check-in) On today’s episode, John talks with licensed therapist and relationship expert Nedra Tawwab about boundaries, relationships and when to cut people off. Next Steps: 📷 Follow Nedra on Instagram. 💭 More information on Nedra 🔥 Microhabits for a Better Marriage: ⁠https://ter.li/l3b369p1⁠ ❤️Join Dr. John Delony at Money & Marriage Getaway. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Go to Joi + Blokes and get 50% off labs and 20% off products. Working knives for working people—go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dr. John Delony?

  How do you be in a relationship with imperfect people?

• 0:07Speaker 01

  We need friction. We need some sort of tribulation.

• 0:13Dr. John Delony?

  If you put up a boundary and say, you can't cross this one, you may be on the other side of that thing and maybe you may have to grieve that relationship.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  There is that group where it's like, ooh, you need to cut them off 25 years ago.

• 0:25Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me if I'm just being too dramatic. There's just a sense of disempowerment.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Well, three things. One is, I'd say, you're not being dramatic enough.

• 0:38Dr. John Delony?

  What's going on? This is John Deloney, The Dr. John Deloney Show. This is an episode of what's fast becoming one of my favorite things I get to do in the world, much less for a job. It's another episode of Off the Record. I got to sit down with one of my heroes, one of the smartest, best therapists I know. Her name is Nedra Tawwab. She, I first, I first saw her when I picked up Instagram in 2020, but she's a real therapist. She's not just an Instagrammy person with a bunch of unanchored info and nonsense. She actually sees real clients. She's a New York Times bestselling author.

• 1:18Dr. John Delony?

  She wrote an extraordinary book on boundaries. She's written a book on this idea of balance. This conversation was so good and I fangirled hard. And so we talk about relationships, boundaries, AI, aging parents, how to navigate personal responsibility in some really tough situations. And she gives really sound, clinical, but practical wisdom on how to go live a better life and how to have better relationships. And I'm so grateful that she came to Nashville to hang out with us. So check out my conversation with the great and awesome Nedra Tawwab.

• 1:53Dr. John Delony?

  So you wrote one of my favorite books of the last decade.

• 1:59Dr. John Delony?

  And it was on boundaries and I put it up there with James Clear in, with Atomic Habits, in terms of, there's a lot of stuff out there on it and you hear habits, habits, you hear boundaries, boundaries, but it's the clearest, most, not only approachable, but not only action-based, but the meta-theme I walked away with is, boundaries are not weapons. They are, they're bridges, they're pathways. And it had a huge impact on me. And so I want to tell you thank you for, for writing that book. I want to talk about boundaries for a minute and then we'll get to the latest book you've written. This is the latest book you've written?

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yes. We could talk about boundaries for like 30 minutes. We could talk about it. We can have no boundaries while talking about boundaries.

• 2:46Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so again, one of the things I like to be honest about is I'm wrong a lot. And that's why I like bringing in experts that I have high respect for, that you can say, that's stupid. Don't say that. Or you're on.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say it that way.

• 3:01Dr. John Delony?

  I know, because you're kind, but feel free to say that that way. No boundaries, right? It feels like boundaries have become excuses. Boundaries have become overprotective measures and they've gotten further, further away from the original idea that you've written about, that my buddy Henry Cloud wrote about years ago, like that boundaries are a way to make sure you're staying connected with people and here's what must be true. What has happened in the boundary world? You've lived in this for a while.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Humans, you know.

• 3:36Dr. John Delony?

  People screwed it up. A good idea?

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we could take any message and make it our own. And sometimes even with boundaries, it's like, how do I need these principles to fit my life, even if what I'm trying to do is divisive? Like, how do I flip it and make it a tool that someone taught me, something I read about and say, well, this person said, I need to do X, Y, and Z when, you know, I've said something completely different.

• 4:06Dr. John Delony?

  So how do you navigate, somebody says, well, I'm putting up my boundaries now. You're not allowed, if, if you can't put your shoes there when you walk in the house. I'm putting up my boundaries now. You can't.

• 4:17Dr. John Delony?

  How do you, how do you help coach somebody from saying, because basically, boundaries can become a prison you build for yourself. And not only can nobody get to you, but you can't get out. But how do you teach somebody to take boundaries which are important? Like, what must be true for this relationship to be healthy and survive? Or for me to be safe? How do you teach somebody that?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Well, if you use the shoe, the shoe example, okay, someone comes in your house and they set their shoes somewhere. Is your house, you know, your boundary stratosphere, move their shoes. You move their shoes. It's your house. You can say to a person, hey, don't set your shoes there, but what do you do if they continue to do it? You are the person with the boundary, so you really have to own that and you have to make the changes. Very often, it's, I don't like this person's behavior and here's what they need to do to have my boundaries. And it's like, well, it's your boundaries. What can you do? I have boundaries in my home. I have kids and I have places that I want things to go.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  And I can make requests. I can say, hey, don't set your backpack there. Please, you know, get your socks up, X, Y, and Z. I can move them. I can stop buying them socks. No.

• 5:31Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. You don't have any more.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  No more socks.

• 5:34Dr. John Delony?

  No more socks.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  What can I do to manage this situation? Because kids will be kids. There, there are ways that I could put some things into practice to remind them of what my boundary is. Maybe they get consequences. So sometimes when we issue boundaries with people, if they're not listening, what is the consequence? What's the buy-in for them to listen? You know, at some jobs, they say, okay, here is our attendance policy. If you do not abide by this, here is the consequence. So that's a good boundary. When it's, well, if you continue to put your shoes here, I'm going to set them on a porch and they're going to get wet.

• 6:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  You know?

• 6:14Dr. John Delony?

  So, so I'm not crazy when I, because when someone says, I'm going to put down these boundaries. I always tell folks, if you're going to lay down boundaries, you have to have an or what statement.

• 6:27Dr. John Delony?

  Like, if you do this, this, and this, you can't do that anymore. Or what? Are you going to leave? Are you going to leave over the shoes? Or, like you mentioned, you're just going to move the shoes?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or is it something you can stick to? You know, when you think of a consequence, this is another thing, like, many people might have the same problem, but it's based on what can you do in this situation? It may not be option A. It might not be, be B. It could be a C, that we need to brainstorm about because it's based on your temperament, your ability. Not everyone can take an invite and just say, no, I'm not going. Right? Some people, no, not this time, but Tuesday, can we do X, Y, and Z? No, this won't work for me, but here's how I can help you with this. Like, so there are so many different ways to even say no. It's not just no for everyone.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  It really depends on what can I manage? How do I want to support this relationship? And sometimes, who is the person? Because some people do need a flat no. You don't give them anything else.

• 7:26Dr. John Delony?

  That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how do you?

• 7:32Dr. John Delony?

  I feel like the, if one of the meta-messages we get culturally is,

• 7:40Dr. John Delony?

  you should never feel uncomfortable. You should never feel out of sorts. And if you feel out of sorts, or if you feel uncomfortable, it's somebody else's fault, or the relationship is over, or, or, or. How do you gently or abruptly coach someone into? Because what you're talking about is a complete and total mind shift, which is, the most common thing I hear when people sit down with me, talk about their marriage is, if they would just, if they would just. And sometimes, that's true. Like, it's abusive, it's unsafe, struggling with addiction, or like, there is some, if they would just.

• 8:18Dr. John Delony?

  But often, it's, no, I want them to live in the world that I want to create. And that's not a relationship, right? And it's, it's hard to shift somebody even to that mindset, much less, just pick up your shoes, man. That's your friend. That's your ride or die. You both said till death do you part. Pick up your shoes.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Pick up the shoes.

• 8:36Dr. John Delony?

  Pick your shoes. Or ask a deeper question, which is, or be honest about the story you're making up. Whenever I see those shoes, I feel like you don't love me. I feel like you don't care about me. And that makes me feel sad, right? Instead of you always, you always, you always. How do you help someone make that shift? Because I, I feel like broadly speaking,

• 8:57Dr. John Delony?

  Man, tell me if I'm just being too dramatic, which people tell me often. There's just a sense of disempowerment.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:05Dr. John Delony?

  Just go over there in the corner, somebody gonna pat you on the head. This happened, you're this, here's the label, here's the diagnostic, here's the relationship you find yourself in. Somebody else will handle it.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Dr. John Delony?

  And there's the, I think the reason I resonate with you so much is there's, there seems to be a, hey, you're driving in the seat of your life. What do you want, what do you want this thing to look like? And there's a sense of, you give people agency back.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Well, three things. One is I went to a performing arts high school, so I'd say you're not being dramatic enough.

• 9:32Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 9:35Dr. John Delony?

  Clip that too. Clip that too.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Two, I, when I work with couples, sometimes it's very interesting because one of the big fights that I see is who should be doing what when, like task distribution. So when we get off work, this person should cook, this person does this, this person does that. There is no, I, no conversations typically, especially in heterosexual relationships around like, who does what well? Gender aside, who does what well? Um, can you take the garbage out without it leaking? Or can he do it? Right? Who, who is a better cook? If neither of you like to clean, should the expectation be that you have the same cleaning standards? So some of these things is like, well, if I don't like to do it and they don't like to do it,

• 10:24Speaker 01

  but I push through and do it, they're being lazy. There's a problem with them and they have to come to my side and do everything like me. You know, some of what you're talking about, like this person needs to think like me, be like me for us to be in a happy, functioning relationship. When I introduce the idea of, would you like to take some of your disposable income and get a housekeeper? Oh, no, no, no. We should be able to do this as adults. Would you like to clean the bathroom instead of putting it on your, oh, no, no, no. So there has to be some flexibility in relationships. Some flexibility around not what your partner is capable of,

• 11:08Speaker 01

  but also what is their capacity? What is their rest need? And what is their desire to do it?

• 11:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Dr. John Delony?

  It, it, it went way too long, like years and years and years. But I remember a conversation my wife and I had about the dishes. And it wasn't, it was a light bulb that went off. And it actually led to a pretty deep conversation about identity that I wasn't expecting. But the conversation was, hey, I do the dishes. But when I'm eating cereal out of a salad bowl, that's my signal. Dude, I got nothing left in those cabins, I need to clean those dishes. For you, you have this picture of that, before I, my head hits the pillow, the kitchen's gotta be ready for me to walk in the next morning and basically start from scratch.

• 12:05Dr. John Delony?

  Since we never talked about that, then it becomes a, you're not, well, you're always, you never. And it was her giving me a picture of what she wanted the world to look and feel like and me not hearing that picture, right? Not, not, not accepting that picture, cause I didn't even know what it was. It's like, I will do the dishes, they don't need to be done right now. She's like, they gotta be done every day. And the identity question underneath that was, oh, she had a story that she had told herself for years that this is what a home looks like and this is a wife's responsibility, even though she was a professor and doing her full-time job, like this is what a kitchen's supposed to look and feel like. And we had never talked about that story. And it, it opened up a bigger conversation, but it came back to that idea. What's your picture of this thing look like?

• 12:49Dr. John Delony?

  And you're asking a question, tell me if you experienced this. When folks sit down and say, almost always under the logistics question, who's doing what? Is a sense of, I feel less than in this house? Or a way to balance me feeling less than, you need to. Does that make sense? It becomes a scorekeeping, it becomes a, well, I'm doing this, so you should do this. That's divorced from, do we have dishes or not? Right, this becomes the proxy war.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and what is fair? Right? So if we live together and I'm doing these things and you're like resting, like that's not fair. I'm not resting.

• 13:25Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And also you're making the choice to not rest to do these other things. So that's something we have to look at too. Like what am I giving up by, by having to have things a certain way? Now.

• 13:41Dr. John Delony?

  Like you're making choices.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  You're making choices. Now personally, I make the choice to be out of sorts sometimes because I do want my house to look a certain way. So I, I make that choice. I do want it to look a certain way. And I also realize that is my expectation in the household. That's my kids' rooms, I just close the door because your room, your business, and most of the time, right? Because if I go in your room, it is not organized to me. But can you find your belt? Oh, you just showed me, you know where you're about it. That's not how I would keep my belts. You know, so it's, it's really, some of it is like personal preference. It's not a household need.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  And so learning, I am living with other people. They may operate differently. What is clean to them, what is clean to me, what is required? What is, what is too much, what is too little? Now, some people have partners who do nothing.

• 14:42Dr. John Delony?

  Sure. Well, that's what makes, that's what makes the Instagrammy discourse hard is.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It's so much nuance. Yeah, it's, there are scumbags, yeah.

• 14:52Dr. John Delony?

  Don't do anything.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Who don't do anything.

• 14:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not my job.

• 14:55Dr. John Delony?

  But once I learned similar, like once I learned, oh, it's not a matter of, we're not fighting over dishes. We're fighting over a thing that gives my wife peace. Oh, I'm in on that. I'll do dishes for you, like, I'll do that.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Or a way for me to.

• 15:09Dr. John Delony?

  Give you some space?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Feel loved and supported.

• 15:13Dr. John Delony?

  I'm in.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  I wanna feel loved and supported. When I work with couples and particularly those not having sex and heterosexual relationships in particular, if it's a guy and he's like, you know, we're not having sex and I'm like, are you doing a dishes? I, it's a part of her libido.

• 15:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. I just had Jordan Carlos on, he wrote that choreplay book, it was so good.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, if, if, if you want more sex, take her car to the gas station, fill it up. You know, you think it's not these little things, but the more that's on her plate, she's not sitting down to 8:00 PM, she's exhausted. And so the more things you can remove and say, oh, no, no, no, honey, I took care of dinner. Even if you're stopping to grab something, even if you're picking up a meal at the grocery store, it's something off her plate.

• 15:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  And so thinking about it in that way, that there are ways I can support my partner so they can be more present. So yeah, it's not just about cleaning, it's about showing that I can support my household.

• 16:08Dr. John Delony?

  So along that same vein, I get that question a lot too. We're not having sex, well, why not? And the conversation I hear from men a lot is, I just want her, I just wanna get off the chore chart. I wanna get off the list. And I've developed a hypothesis and I want you to tell me if I'm wrong or not. And I hope you say I'm right, cause I've already hit send on the manuscript, so.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  It's right. You wrote it, it's, it's right, I don't even know what you're saying.

• 16:34Dr. John Delony?

  Good affirming therapist. Here's, here's my hypothesis. If, if I'm, and, and there's a bigger picture to the, just the sex conversation. So often I see couples lobbing needs back and forth at each other. I need this, I need you to put the kids to bed, I need you, I need more sex, I need more of this.

• 16:57Dr. John Delony?

  In essence, I'm taking my ability to exist and I'm handing it to you and saying, this is your job. And what I've found sitting with couples is, instead of saying, we need to be having more, hey, I want you. And going from what we lob needs at each other, actually deeply felt wants. And it's scary to say want, because your partner might say, I don't want that same thing. But like if, if, if you and I were walking on the sidewalk outside of this building and somebody collapsed, we'd both run over there, cause they need somebody. That's just humans, right?

• 17:33Dr. John Delony?

  But there's something powerful I've found about somebody looking at their spouse and saying, I want you. I want some help around here. I want to have some space to be with you and I got so many things going on. Is there, am I wrong there? Is there, do we lob needs at each other? Or mo, I, the way I, I think in my head is like, I need food, I need water, I need air. And most everything else is a really powerful want, it's what I want.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  I, I don't think we can explore that without considering how much.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  The family system, the, the marriage ecosystem, the world has changed. We have way more tasks than our parents had.

• 18:20Dr. John Delony?

  For sure.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Our kids, our, our grandparents, kids are busier. There are so many activities. You know, sixty years ago, women were not working outside the home.

• 18:31Dr. John Delony?

  Right. Well, my dad, my dad tells a story about the time he made the all-star team in Houston as a little kid, which meant the games were across town. And his, my grandparents, who are the best people ever, they didn't even budge. I ain't driving you. Are you crazy? If you can't ride your bike, you're playing baseball.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  My grandmother was a stay-at-home mom. She didn't work outside the home and come home and take care of all her children and get. So I, I think.

• 18:55Dr. John Delony?

  So there is logistics, you're right.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  There are so many.

• 18:58Dr. John Delony?

  Doctor's appointments and braces and soccers and, yeah, yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Braces. I mean, it's even more kids with braces now. I bet everything has increased.

• 19:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And we are the same human beings. I mean, biologically. We haven't been geared with, oh, you know what? Let's give these humans more time.

• 19:16Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Let's give them more energy. Like, we don't have that stuff. And so guess who we're looking at? Like, I'm depleted, you're depleted. Help me, I'm depleted. Like, these are the things we need to do. And there's no quick solution for it, but I think one thing that could be helpful is having more support.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Uh, that can come from family, it can come from friends, it can come from our communities. We have to navigate these things better. When I think about like my neighborhood and the families who have kids my age, oh, it's beautiful on a Saturday. My kids are gone.

• 19:57Dr. John Delony?

  Running around playing.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're running around playing. Now some kids may come in, get some snacks, and then they're gone again. That's it. That's beautiful. But there was a time when my kids are just in my house.

• 20:09Dr. John Delony?

  They're never gonna leave.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, they're, they didn't have anyone to play with. So I, I think just the communal part of it needs to increase for couples to survive with all these expectations. We live further away from our families now. Um, a lot of things are expensive. Uh, we have really high boundaries, which can be good sometimes, but it also, uh, depending on what the boundaries are, it limits ability for others to support us, right? Because it's like, you know, you give some parents like, here's my list for you to use with my kids. And they're like, what?

• 20:48Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I'd rather not watch them.

• 20:49Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. Let them have macaroni and cheese.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  They can't have this, they can't do that, they can't, which is necessary for some kids. And so being flexible and being open to outside of my home, there are other people that can support me. Getting to know your neighbors, asking your single unmarried friends and family members to support you. I think that's, that will give marriages and families a lot of relief. Yeah, but it's like the two of you just doing it alone. It's like, it's a lot.

• 21:24Dr. John Delony?

  So,

• 21:27Dr. John Delony?

  again, tell me if I'm wrong, real quick, we, like in a short time span,

• 21:34Dr. John Delony?

  if a buddy of mine, if a neighbor of mine is like, hey, can you drive me to the airport? I'd do it. But my first thought would be, why don't you Uber like an adult? Right? And if, I haven't had somebody come borrow eggs or sugar ever at my, at my house in Nashville. That was part of my childhood, was going around the neighborhood getting, hey, my mom needs another egg, hey, my mom needs more sugar. And I just Instacart it, right? It just comes over. These new technologies are awesome, but what I feel this sense of that's crept inside of me is I don't want to bother anybody, which is, the flip side of that is.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Now we're getting into the balancing act.

• 22:13Dr. John Delony?

  I'm a bother, right?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I'm a burden.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:15Dr. John Delony?

  I don't want to ask my neighbor, hey, can you come watch my kids for two hours with me and my wife? Just go for breakfast. And they, here's what I'm robbing them of, a purpose. Most people would love to help their neighbor. They'd love to be around kids again because they're sixty-five, they haven't been around young kids. Like, I'm stealing that from them because of my own picture of myself, which has become, I don't bother anybody.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  My after-school program was my, going over my neighbor's house.

• 22:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  It's like, Ms. Williams, I'm here. And she'd let me in, give me a snack until my mom got home. She was an old lady. And she had her grandson there. And it was, that was after-school program. There wasn't, you know, my husband sent me something today of a mom on next door saying, hey, my son gets out of school at three-thirty, I'm still working. Is there anyone here who can pick him up and take him to the after-school program? And it's like, wow, like, this used to be my neighbor's job. I would just go.

• 23:08Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Next door.

• 23:09Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  It wasn't like a after-school program per se.

• 23:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. It was neighborhoods working out.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  It was neighborhoods working it out with each other's kids. Like, what time are you, okay, well, they can come here and we'll do that. And we're all going here on Saturday. And we have moved so far away from that, that we're operating in this, I don't want to say lonely, but in this isolated bubble, like not being able to borrow sugar and whatever.

• 23:40Dr. John Delony?

  You could, but we just, it feels lonely to me. Why don't you like that word? It feels lonely to me.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  It is lonely. I think it is lonely and isolating. And I think we have to almost do the uncomfortable thing and move back to being in community with people, even when it feels uncomfortable. I had a friend recently have surgery and I was taking her some food. And someone said, why don't you just DoorDash? And I was like, you know, I think a part of being there for her and her recovery is taking the food.

• 24:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  I don't think it's being disconnected and be like, here's a DoorDash. You know, like, I want to be present with you to hand you the food. And how you doing? You look, you know, like, eyes on the person.

• 24:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  But everything is so convenient. You can't just say like, oh, I helped that person with this thing because I sent them an Uber.

• 24:33Dr. John Delony?

  So I, I learned this lesson in a radical way about five years ago. So we live in a place outside of town. Um, it's got an old gravel driveway up. It's, it's in the, it's in the country, right? My neighbor, I think he's seventy-eight, he may be eighty. He's been there forever. Lived on this land his whole life. Well, there was a bad rain and my gravel driveway, it got these huge rivets in it and I could barely drive my car up it. And one morning, I see him out there in this giant tractor and he had regraded his driveway and then he comes up leveling mine out, grading mine out. And so I took a

• 25:12Dr. John Delony?

  chunk of cash and I gave it to my son. And I thought I was helping my son, I thought I was teaching my son. I want you, like, that guy did a really cool thing for us. I want you to take this in this envelope and run it over to him. A couple of days later, he does it. A couple of days later, I'm driving out and my old neighbor's sitting on the corner. She's doing something with the yard. And he says, hey, and I rolled my window down. And he said, don't ever give me money again. And I said, no, I'm gonna pay for whatever. And he said something that stuck with me. He said, young man, I'm your neighbor. And I said, all right. And I, I didn't get it at first, but it was, it slowly just meta, I just slowly metabolized it over time. Fast forward, I don't know, maybe six months. My wife has these massive gardens.

• 25:57Dr. John Delony?

  And he did it again. He graded the driveway when it washed out. And so my wife made him this giant basket full of, like, she makes these fancy breads and stuff. And it was awesome. And vegetables from the garden. And I took that over to him and said, hey, thank you for that. I think he started crying. He was all sweaty. He was out working. He gave me a big hug. And that was like, oh, he, the fact that it was my time, that was something from our, I was like, from us, not just an exchange, a transaction, not just transaction. But that line, I'm your, like, you're my neighbor, has sat with me like, oh, my gosh, what have we done? You know what I mean?

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we have to walk it back.

• 26:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  We have to walk it back. I remember, um, being single and living on my own. And I heard a loud bump in the night. And who was at my door? My neighbor from across the hall. Ned, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't know, I heard a noise. He's like, just run to the door. And I ran to the door. He came and checked the apartment. He's like, everything is good. But that comes from building a relationship.

• 27:01Dr. John Delony?

  Did you marry him?

• 27:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:02Dr. John Delony?

  That's a good guy right there. That's a good guy.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  No, he was married. He was married. But that just comes from, you know, the hellos and, oh, I got your mail. And, oh, I cooked a little extra this. And, you know, just building a relationship up over time. Not being afraid to, to talk to people. But now it's like, I go in my house, you know, you might go in your apartment and you're on your phone. You don't even see your neighbor's face.

• 27:28Dr. John Delony?

  That's exact, yes.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  You don't even see your neighbor.

• 27:30Dr. John Delony?

  Or if you're in an apartment, you sit on the, on the elevator with three other people, everybody's on their phone.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's, we don't have the ability to connect in that way anymore. But it is so important to have those relationships. And I think very often, we're like, no, it has to be family. No, it's neighbors, it's the barista at your local coffee shop.

• 27:52Dr. John Delony?

  Who has a name.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  It is your mailman.

• 27:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Uh, it is, it's all the people.

• 27:57Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  It's the, you know, it's the, the couple that walks past my house most mornings. They're walking and I'm just like, hello. You know, it's, it's all of that stuff. Like, I feel like, gosh, if I didn't see them for a week, I'd be like, wait a minute, where, where are they?

• 28:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Where are they?

• 28:11Dr. John Delony?

  I hadn't seen you, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I haven't seen you. Oh, you got, you had a surgery?

• 28:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Like, I, I would be invested. Um,

• 28:18Dr. John Delony?

  And that is uncomfortable, if you haven't done it in a while, or if you've never done it, right? If you're, if you're twenty-eight in the last ten years and you graduated school and you've been out in the world, like, this isn't how the world is operated. The, the, the, the path I see is just two uncomfortable paths. And so it's not a matter of one's easy and one's not. They're both uncomfortable. Either it's gonna be uncomfortable to, all right, I'm gonna go make some neighbors. All right, right? I'm gonna go make some friends with my neighbors. And I don't have to be best friends and they don't even let them in my house. But I'm gonna get to know people, I'm gonna acknowledge, I'm gonna wave, I'm taking my earphones out. Or I'm gonna take the other uncomfortable path, which is, I'm gonna try to do this whole thing by myself. And I'm gonna keep going until it implodes on me. I don't see another, it, it's just choose your discomfort, choose your uncomfortable path, right?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I'm, when I'm working with moms who are like, I'm burnt out, I'm doing all the things, I don't have a lot of support. I'm like, do you have friends with children your age? Do you all do meal swaps? Do you all, you know, give people, give each other relief with your kids? Maybe they take your kids Tuesday, you take their kids Thursday. Like, how do you build commen, community when you feel like you don't have any? Like, who's in the same situation as you? Like, who are you complaining to? Could they, could they help?

• 29:28Dr. John Delony?

  When I have that conversation with moms, what I run up against is,

• 29:35Dr. John Delony?

  I've crudely named it the guilt factory. There's this underlying story that is, I should be able to do all this.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 29:42Dr. John Delony?

  And it runs up not against the logistics. So in my head, I'm like, yeah, call a friend and ask, or just don't do the PTA thing this six months. And because you're also pregnant again, and your husband's out of town this, this, this particular season. Like, just don't do that thing. It's not a logistics question as much as it's an identity issue.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also I think, you know, clinically, we have to like walk people back into a world where they did one thing. So when I'm talking to clients and they're like, I should be able to whatever. I'm like, okay, so you went to college, you had, you know, 12 credits or something. Didn't that feel like a lot in one day? Yeah, I was busy to do that. Okay, now we're adding. Now we're going to a nine to five. You're working 40 hours a week. Now you don't have kids, you're not married. Didn't that feel like a lot? Like, what extra time did you have? I don't have any. Now let's add. You know, like, you're adding all this stuff with your same capacity brain.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Like you've got, like, why do you think the capacity is increasing? It is not.

• 30:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  You're just doing way more things. You went from 12 credits. To 40 hours a week, to 40 hours a week and married, to 40 hours a week, married with one child. 40 hours a week.

• 31:02Dr. John Delony?

  Too much.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 31:04Dr. John Delony?

  And it's not a moral failure, and it's not a character issue. It's just a capacity, yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  It's impossible. And then you want your kids to be well-rounded. So they're in the debate club, they're in this, they're in that, they're. It's like, you're doing a lot of things. And I think a few days of crying in your closet, or, you know, snapping on someone, it's reasonable.

• 31:25Dr. John Delony?

  Correct, right, right, right, right, right.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  It's very reasonable, given all the things you're doing.

• 31:29Dr. John Delony?

  I told my wife, the greatest gift she gives me in this current season we're in, besides the fact that she's just awesome, but is, she lets me know it's coming. And I'm like, thank you for that. And I've learned to let her know, hey, I'm coming home, I'm coming in hot. And she's like, got it. And that's a, it's a cool, it's, I'm gonna do my best, but I'm, I'm over the line, right? I've, I've exceeded my ability to hold it all. How do you, circling back to boundaries, again, I'm dramatic.

• 31:59Dr. John Delony?

  I feel like we have a cutting people off epidemic of either I'm uncomfortable, and I'm gonna, I wanna bell curve this, there's abuse, and there's evil and nonsense, so that's over here.

• 32:12Dr. John Delony?

  But we cut people off because they're annoying, or we cut people off because they like to forward us conspiracy theory emails, or we cut people off because they say dumb things, or COVID keeps coming, like. Am I crazy? It feels like there's just been this, no.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I want to first give space to people who have been abusive, disruptive, tyrants for a very long time. And now we're just getting the motivation, the language, and understanding the need to cut them off, right? So there, there is that group.

• 32:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Where it's like, ooh, you need to cut them off 25 years ago. And then it's the group you're talking about, like, this person is annoying, they have some behaviors I don't like, gosh, why do they keep talking to me about this thing? And what's really helpful is to think about, how can I show up in relationship with imperfect people? Because we're not gonna like everybody. Sometimes it's people we work with, sometimes it's our family. Are there ways that I can place boundaries around what we talk about, right? So when they start to bring up this thing, I'm not engaging in that conversation. So I may say to them, hey, I'm not talking politics. And I'll change the subject.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  And I'm like, but did you hear so-and-so's new album, right?

• 33:41Dr. John Delony?

  But what you just said is, is a radical take, I think.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I'm not talking about that.

• 33:46Dr. John Delony?

  How do you be in a relationship with imperfect people? As an imperfect person?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  As an imperfect person.

• 33:51Dr. John Delony?

  That sounds like crazy talk now.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 33:53Dr. John Delony?

  Because that's not how, that's not how, that's not how the world tells us it's supposed to be.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Well, that.

• 33:59Dr. John Delony?

  Every relationship should be frictionless, you should feel good all the time.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  We need friction.

• 34:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  We need friction. We need some sort of tribulation in life. Like, that is what helps us to understand the experiences of others. So if someone is sending me, I don't know, emails, and it's like, what, what are you talking about? First, I'm gonna try, let me ignore the emails, not ignore the person, but I'm not gonna respond to you.

• 34:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Now, if you start to get pushy, maybe you're sending more. It's like, hey, uh, did you get the email I sent? Now it's time for a conversation.

• 34:36Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Right? Like, hey, I'm not responding to these type of emails. I get that this is something you want to talk about. Maybe there is someone in your orbit that's interested, but I'm not engaging on this. Or here's my view, and, you know, I understand that this is your view, and I feel it to be harmful, ignorant, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk about that. Um, and I think, depending on the view, because I think that matters too.

• 35:06Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Because there are some views that are harmful to humanity, and there's some that's just like, I can't believe you believe that. Like, do you really believe that gorillas would do that? You know, like, so it depends.

• 35:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  The boundary should depend on what the information is. What is this person's desire to execute, you know, this information or share it with other people? So that matters too. And, and I think the way that we manage that is through conversation. Sometimes people are cut off and we haven't tried anything. I'm talking about, again, abuse aside.

• 35:42Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  That's different.

• 35:43Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  But some people, you can shift the relationship just by having an uncomfortable conversation.

• 35:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Just by having some consequences when you have boundaries with them. That can change the way that they show up with you. And it's not to say that you're like changing them as a human, but you're changing the way they operate with you. And you have to also be open to people having boundaries with you.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Because one of the things we love to have is, oh, here are all my boundaries. Other people have boundaries too. When I was talking about my kids' rooms earlier, I used to try to like go in and organize. And my oldest said like, well, I think this stuff on my desk kind of works for me because I use it, and I like to have it on hand. I'm a no, I don't like stuff on a counter, I don't want anything on my vanity, like, put it all away. I know that people exist in a world, and they like to have their stuff out. I don't get it, but.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I'm like, can you put the toothbrush away?

• 36:49Dr. John Delony?

  My wife is sitting across from me talking, and she's like, why? Why do we have to have a coffee maker on the counter?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the toothbrush is not a decoration.

• 36:55Dr. John Delony?

  But it kinda is.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 36:58Dr. John Delony?

  But that's, okay.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the coffee, the toaster, the this, the that, it's like, can it go in a cabinet, right? So.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  What does that mean for me? I'm doing a lot of putting things away before I buy appliances. I'm measuring to make sure they have space in the cabinets.

• 37:17Dr. John Delony?

  And I just come home, I'm like, look what I got. And my wife's first thought is, not, that's amazing, it's, where's I gonna go?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yes, but the people in my home should have their space. So for my children, your space is your, your desk, your dresser. And so if you're the sort of person who likes stuff to be out, I just can't look at it. So I'm gonna close the door.

• 37:36Dr. John Delony?

  But that's you saying that's a me problem.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  That's a me problem. That's not a you problem. You are a, a different sort of organizer than me.

• 37:48Dr. John Delony?

  What's that? Our buddy Becky says that the most generous interpretation, you're a different kind of organizer.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  You won't be getting a Netflix special, but, but there is, there, you know where your stuff is.

• 38:01Dr. John Delony?

  You are not bringing Marie Joy.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's a matter of like, this is not how I would do it, but how can I allow people to have their stuff, their opinions, their, whatever those things are, without being like, you have to think like me, you have to dress like me, you have to do this?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  I remember having a friend, and another friend didn't like the way she dressed, and she said, why don't you tell her she dresses silly, and she should wear this? And I'm like, that's not my business. Why do, why do you think that she should have your style preference?

• 38:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Like, that's not, it's one of those things, like, this person has to think like me, they have to feel the same way about things, so we have to grieve the same. We have to be sad about the same type of things, and that's why we have others saying like.

• 38:53Dr. John Delony?

  In the same way.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  In the same way. Don't be sad about that, that's not a big deal. Don't, you know, those are boundary violations as well.

• 38:59Dr. John Delony?

  Or you didn't comment on this stranger's.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you didn't do this. Like, you should, it's like, we, what does that matter to you? What is, it, it really doesn't. You know, when we think about it, it's like.

• 39:13Dr. John Delony?

  Where does that come from? Because what you're talking about, I mean, it's, it's in the title of your book, but I think the thing that's absent from most of us these days is that sense of peace. And so when people ask me about, I co-host a, a finance show too, like ROI and this, I'm like, dude, I'm solving for peace. And I'll give the extra 2% APR over here for this banker, I know him, and I know his name, and he gave me his cell phone number, I'm solving for peace. So I'll give up, we just don't have that. I'm not gonna have that argument with you because I love you, and we're hanging out, like. But that's me not trying to win, or not trying to justify myself, that's me just solving for peace. I don't think we have that anymore.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we.

• 40:00Dr. John Delony?

  Or we think that peace is something out there that we can drag in here instead of something from the inside out.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is internal. We have to create it. We have to execute it. You asked about how to be in relationships with imperfect people. I think one beautiful way to do that is not cutting them off, but de-centering them. Sometimes we have too much contact with people who annoy us. We're saying too many things. We're, you know, and I'm not talking about the people who live in your home, but if you have an annoying sister and you guys argue every day, do you need to talk every day? Can you talk every other day? Does, is that, that might be more helpful for your relationship if you actually have something to catch up on.

• 40:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, just not people to talk about.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, just not people to talk about. So sometimes it's a matter of, you know, every morning when I walk past this person's desk, I say this, maybe I need to shift the question that I ask them. Because if you know that they complain and you say, how was your weekend? I don't always want to know about people's weekend.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  I don't always want to know how some people are doing because I know what your, it's gonna be such a like, energy zap. I don't want to know. And so my question for them, or my feedback to them right off is very different. It's just hi. I'm not even gonna say, hey, how are you doing?

• 41:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, or it's good to see you.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Good to see you. Yeah, like, I don't want to know because I know you're gonna stop me and it's gonna be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't need to cut you off. I need to stop asking you how you're doing.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I gotta stop that.

• 41:39Dr. John Delony?

  That's interesting. So if I engage in a conversation with a family member and every time I call them, I know how it's gonna end. Cause they want to talk about X, Y, and Z. At some point, that's not their problem. That's mine. Cause I keep calling. Or I keep picking up the phone, or I keep expecting this call is gonna be different this time. And I've experienced this with my own parents who are amazing. They're both still alive. And I hear this a lot.

• 42:08Dr. John Delony?

  There's, I call it chasing the dragon. I know it's, I got a heroin reference to it, but this call will be the one that they say this magic thing, or this will be the one where I can get through to him on this issue they keep talking about, right? And it's my fault because it's not gonna change, right? And there's, there's almost a grief to that sometimes. And then there's a chosen reality of like, okay, here's what I get to do next, right?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and sometimes people will have a perpetual problem that they actually don't want to resolve.

• 42:40Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  And you have to accept, this is an issue they will always have. You can give them 5,000 solutions. You can help, you can go over and help them. Save your energy. Listen, maybe, give a little bit of work, hmm, whoa.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  I would spend any energy trying to help them shift, shift the situation they've been having for 20 years. Sometimes I start friends talking about their partner. It's like, yeah, you say he gets on your nerves, but he's been doing this thing for, like, I'll listen to it, but I'm also actually watching TV while listening. Like, it's, it's, it's not going anywhere. So I don't want to say, you should do the, try to, I love you deeply. I'm tired of hearing you talk about this. This is what I'm thinking, not saying. You know, I'm tired of hearing you talk about this problem, but it sounds like you're not ready to make a move.

• 43:33Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And that's okay. Like, you.

• 43:35Dr. John Delony?

  I'll be right here either way.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I'll be right here either way. And then when you finish talking about that thing, because I'm not giving it much energy, now we can move on to talking about some fun stuff.

• 43:45Dr. John Delony?

  Talk to me about sitting with somebody.

• 43:50Dr. John Delony?

  There's been a, a big conversation, and again, you're one of the only sane voices in the world talking about this. There's been lots of conversations about boundaries and boundaries and boundaries. And what I find often is people are stunned that there are consequences to their boundaries. And so I hear, how do I tell my parents, my aging parents, X, Y, or Z without it hurting their feelings? Or how do I tell my spouse, I need him or her to step up in this way without them feeling? And my impulse is to always say, you can't control how they respond. You can control how you show up. But if you put up a, if you put up a, a, a boundary and say, you can't cross this one,

• 44:31Dr. John Delony?

  you may be on the other side of that thing and maybe you may have to grieve that relationship. They may look at that boundary and say, fine, then I'm out. Or they may try with all their might to knock that boundary down, right? But there's a sense of, now that I put a boundary up, everything should be fine. And usually I've found, no, that's putting up the boundary, step one. Now you gotta deal with the reality, what the relationship actually is on this side of it, right?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody can't tolerate, they're not interested in, they're not willing to change in any way. Sometimes it's our parents, sometimes it's our partners, sometimes it's, you know, a work environment, right? Like you can say, hey, this is toxic and unhealthy. You have people quitting left and right. And the company may not want to change.

• 45:15Dr. John Delony?

  Right. So now I have a choice.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  So, so now you have a choice. And yes, when we put those boundaries out there, we have to be ready for the person's response. What I see people typically doing wrong is anticipating that someone won't like it, and then they change their behavior. They're acting funny since I told them X, Y, and Z. It's like, well, you used to call them every day and then you stopped after you said your boundary. I would have called them the next day.

• 45:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  You know, the, people can repair. You have to continue to do what you were doing and not act as if it changed everything unless they say so. You know, information can be difficult to process. And I get that. Some people will push back. Some people will test. Like that is a part of the process for them. So this expectation that once they hear it, they're gonna be like, yes, I've been waiting for you. Why have you taken so long to tell me this thing? Like, I've been waiting for years. No. They're like, what? Like, I didn't even know this was an issue. Yeah, it's been on your mind for a long time.

• 46:23Dr. John Delony?

  Not on theirs, yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Not on theirs. This is new information. They, they have to have some time to be able to digest. Sometimes really hard things that we're saying to them.

• 46:33Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  And so giving them that time and, and you doing your repair portion can be helpful when you're, when you're placing boundaries. But, you know, something I say to my clients a lot, and I'm laughing because I said it this week, is you're mad because they're mad?

• 46:52Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Getting upset that they're upset with you, right? Like, that's not your intention, but if you, if you do that, it's like you're not leaving room for them to feel.

• 47:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Let them feel. You've been feeling all of this discomfort and you've been upset for four years and they didn't know it. And now that you're like, huh, I released all that. Let them feel. It may not take them years, but give them a week. Give them, give them some time to like, work through this, this hard thing that they just heard.

• 47:23Dr. John Delony?

  And if the relationship matters, go first.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:26Dr. John Delony?

  Like, you can send the text, or you can send the invite, or you can make the phone call too, that I've said my piece, I'm just gonna wait. That's tough sometimes. Like, sometimes the most mature thing is the hard thing, which is, I'll go first. I'll go first because this matters to me, but that's tough, man.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  That is tough because you want the other, and that's why we wait so long. We wait so long because we're waiting for the other person to do it, to say it, to show up differently, to stop sending the emails you don't want, or to figure out that this is the worst time for you to talk, or, you know. They don't do it because they, they don't have the issue you do. And so you have to say like,

• 48:09Speaker 01

  here's how I'd like this to work, and, and you have to do something different in your behavior.

• 48:15Dr. John Delony?

  And it's hard to hold that other people have their own choices to make. And they get to choose, oh, if that's the case, then I don't want to be in this relationship. And that's sad. It's heartbreaking. It's grief.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  And also, I think we can leave so many relationships with imperfect people that we end up with zero relationships.

• 48:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yes. Well, everybody's imperfect.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody's imperfect. So it's kind of like, what things do you accept, what things are unacceptable? Like, yeah, not saying you have to have a list, but some sort of mental ideas around like, okay, these are the things that if people do these things. Now, if all the people you know are doing these things, I will reassess the things that you put on your unacceptable list.

• 49:01Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I have one that like, over the years, just kind of emerged. When I'm speaking at things or doing comedy or whatever, I like to hang out with folks who talk good about their wives in the green room. And there's comics that I hang out with that, man, they tell jokes that make my, I'm like, yeah, right? But they talk real good about their wife. And that's the kind of people I want to be around. And someone can be clean cut and super this and super that, but they're always bad mouthing. I just, but that's, that's a, that's a, that's a relationship quality I look for. And I want to surround myself with guys who talk positively about their partners. And that's just kind of that, right?

• 49:42Dr. John Delony?

  But it's, what you're saying is a good reminder for me, at the end of the day, that's my issue. That's my thing that I've put out into the world. And so it's mine to maintain and it's mine to hold on to and not walk around and expect everybody else to, all right, I'll start talking good so I can hang out. That's not their job. That's my job, right?

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's your job to curate your community and what that looks like.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  You know, I think there's, there's one way to handle boundaries with people we already have relationships with. But what you're talking about is in new relationships, this is my threshold.

• 50:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And sometimes we'll give people that wiggle room. We'll meet them and we're like, oh my gosh, he talks, talks terribly about his wife. And then a month later, it's like, hey, man, why are you talking like that? You, you knew it a month ago.

• 50:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  So is this a person that you should have befriended? Like, do you, you know, so we have to think about that too. Like, how am I contributing to, you know, my ecosystem? These aren't old people. Sometimes it's like.

• 50:43Dr. John Delony?

  I planted that seed in my garden.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, wait a minute, you met this person two weeks ago.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Wow, how'd you pick up that problem?

• 50:54Dr. John Delony?

  All right, is there's, I mean, you wrote a book on it. Is there such thing as balance? To me, it's, it's a myth. It's a, it's this, it's an illusion. And what I found more successful in my house is to not try to establish some sort of homeostasis, but is to be honest about

• 51:14Dr. John Delony?

  the season I'm in.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  I think there is.

• 51:17Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me if I'm wrong.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I think there is harmony. I think there is harmony.

• 51:21Dr. John Delony?

  That's a good word. That's a good word.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yes, there is harmony we can have in our relationships. The expectation that every single relationship we have will be healthy and just at its healthiest state ongoing. Not true. You know, there are going to be some relationships that are here while the others are here. And we have to recognize that there is an ebb and flow. You know, one of the things that we saw become a really big thing was like codependency, like, oh, no, codependency is horrible. Not for the person receiving.

• 51:57Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, they love it.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  They love it.

• 51:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  And I would, I would argue they need it.

• 52:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Like, to have someone like help you and you're like dysfunctional.

• 52:07Dr. John Delony?

  Do you hold all my emotions for me?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, great. Now, right, like, you know, so dysfunctional for one and great for the other.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Can people show up in every relationship like that? No, I hope that 99% of your other relationships are giving you what you need. I think it's problematic when you keep adding more codependent relationships. And that's when it becomes like, okay, now we have to make some changes and really have some boundaries. And so it's not about everything being perfect, but what do I need to accept here? What is kind of okay here? What do I need to improve here? How do I let more people in? How do I set boundaries here? It's like all these things at once. The thing I'm most concerned about now and in writing this book is loneliness.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Because I am now seeing

• 53:06Speaker 01

  younger people experiencing loneliness. I'm talking about early twenties who have no friends.

• 53:12Dr. John Delony?

  They're wiped out.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  They're, they have no friends and they're like 22. And I'm like, do you know how many friends, what I was doing at 22?

• 53:20Dr. John Delony?

  It was chaos, it was madness.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Madness.

• 53:23Dr. John Delony?

  With, with different, my wife mentioned it the other day. She's like, none of the stories, and we've been together 24 years. She's like, I just realized none of your college stories where we dated for five years. None of those stories was I at those things. She's like, you had a whole other clan here and a gang here.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:42Dr. John Delony?

  And we had our own thing here and she had her sorority sisters and all over. And I was like, yeah, we just, there was just groups everywhere.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like people to engage with, but that's prior to social media. You know, I think we have social media now and the expectation is to be social. And I think it's possible to be social with social media. And also I think we do a lot of gawking and not living. I think we do a lot of like looking into people's lives and, and creating moments and not being in the moment.

• 54:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I think we do a lot of being distracted and, and pulled away from the people in front of us. So when someone's talking to us, we're like, do, do, do, do, do, do. We're not even really in the conversation anymore. And when something comes up like, oh, my gosh, I'm going out of town. Who's going to watch my dog or I need help with it? We don't have any real people.

• 54:35Dr. John Delony?

  You got nobody, yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  We have no one, but we have a thousand friends, a million followers of this and that. And it's like, we got to turn a thousand of those followers into pet sitters.

• 54:44Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, or three of them.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  At least three, you know, it's like, girl, do you got a dog?

• 54:49Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will you watch my dog?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Can you watch my dog? You know, we're, we, we, we don't even have that anymore. And so a lot of the conversations, like I said, with, with younger people, it's about like how to make friends, how to meet people today. Even with dating apps, you have all of these spaces, the swiping and the this and the hinge and the bumble and the this and the that. And it's like, they can't meet people. Some people are meeting people, but you know, it's like all these options and no options.

• 55:18Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, mine's n equals one, but my brother in law,

• 55:26Dr. John Delony?

  he was a year older than me, my wife's a year younger. And after hanging out with him for a year, he's like, I think you're going to marry my sister, which I'd never any guy say ever. They're always the opposite, like, don't you talk to my sister, right? But he introduced us. And we took one look at each other, had real long hair. I was, I was gross, dude, I want to be a heavy metal singer so bad. And she had just come out of West Texas. I mean, like braided belt, the whole thing. And we both looked at each other and we're like, no. And it wasn't until we had classes together and had mutual friends together and showed up with some of the same stuff that we got to know each other. And it's given me my entire life. And my fear with those swiping is you take that first glance and it's over. I'm on to the next thing, on to the next thing.

• 56:10Dr. John Delony?

  And by the way, my wife and I listen to different music. We go to bed at different times. We think different things are funny. Like everything about those things that we would check boxes on would be different. And we've created this magic little secret world together, right? And that's my fear of those, just the.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  You're not getting to know people.

• 56:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  You're not having the conversation of, huh, I guess we, we understand each other on values. Even if our interests are different. Right? Because you can check a value box, but what does it really mean if I'm only looking at the box? Like, what are the behaviors of that value? So it's like you're being given all this information, but actually not enough. And it's, you know, it's the same way on, you know, like I said, social media, you kind of, oh, this is this person's lifestyle. I can't get to know them. This is this, you know, like these quick judgments when in meeting people, you know, you, you mentioned your neighbor. I don't, you know, some of the personal inner workings of my neighbor, I don't know. All I need is you to pull my garbage can up.

• 57:14Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, right, right, right, right, yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I don't know what you do. But can you pull my garbage can up? Cause we're going to be on vacation.

• 57:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's right, that's right. And they're like, yeah, I got you, no problem.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's all I need to know. This is a person who can pull the garbage can up and I got you when you go out of town.

• 57:30Dr. John Delony?

  So I'm hearing the rise more and more of that window, especially of young 20 somethings. And then there's a middle aged group and there's the aging, aging adults group. Let's talk about this younger group. Man, it's gotten real easy to have what feels like a real conversation with AI. Does that, does that trip you out as a therapist? Or do you think it'll work itself out?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if it will work itself out without intervention.

• 58:03Dr. John Delony?

  Cause it's, it feels like a mind capture in a weird way.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  It feels like a mind capture in a weird way. And it kinda is, it resembles like movies we watched in the early 2000s about this happening.

• 58:15Dr. John Delony?

  For real, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  It's like, is it happening? It's and, and I think with AI, it's, it's perfect and we need that friction. We need to be able to have someone disagree with us, challenge our, our view, our way of thinking, encourage us to, you know, do some uncomfortable things, to be present with us and AI will not do that. A lot of people now ask me like, are you afraid that AI will take the place of therapists? And I'm like, never. Because I don't, I don't think it's on the spot enough. It's not relational.

• 58:54Dr. John Delony?

  Gotcha.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  And I think that is still very important. I don't care how many convenience services or whatever, we still as humans thrive in relationship with real things.

• 59:07Dr. John Delony?

  That, that's, AI didn't exist, but I remember when I was teaching my grad students, like, you have to know this diagnostic criteria to pass this test, you do. And you have to know this to fill out your, your forms. And you have to, to do this if you're working in insurance to get reimbursed. You gotta know those, those codes.

• 59:25Dr. John Delony?

  But if that's what you think therapy is, you're going to find yourself without a job. Can you sit in whole space with somebody who's struggling? And that's what you gotta get good at. And that's what you gotta honor other people with is kind of sit in your space and I'll be here with you. Right? And that two or three or five or 10 or how big a group is biological being sitting in the same space. Yeah, I don't know that that ever goes away. And I almost, I, I mean, I, I pointed critical finger at,

• 59:56Dr. John Delony?

  at how, like the big umbrella of mental health. But I think we got, we got pretty intoxicated with diagnostics and pretty intoxicated with the labels and pretty intoxicated with trying to sound medically as much as possible. And almost advocating, y'all take the labels, I'm going to sit with this hurting person. You know, I'm going to get real good at bedside manner, right? And I got a buddy who's part of a new med school. And I was like, dude, I, AI can already diagnose better than you. I would spend all my energy teaching med students bedside manner, how to sit with people. Cause they can tell you, you got cancer, but it takes somebody special to, to deliver that news to somebody and to their family.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Dr. John Delony?

  That's the magic.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  In a way that is humane.

• 1:00:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  You know, and I saw, I saw a video of someone doing AI therapy and the AI, it was almost like the inflection was off. The way that it would respond wasn't always there. And, and don't get me wrong. I think they're, you know, in terms of like curating emails or, you know, maybe putting to get, there is a place for it, but it's not everywhere.

• 1:01:07Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  And that's it, that's the thing we have to be mindful of.

• 1:01:11Dr. John Delony?

  I was researching, I was, I was in a nerd headspace and I asked, I put the stuff I was digging into, I had my notes. And I put it in to one of these platforms. And I said, I want you to reply as though you're one of the, the old psychology, like, you know, pillars, right? And then I said, bring somebody else online and bring somebody else online. And there was a dialogue that was going on between me and these three old psychologists. And then I said, hey, uh,

• 1:01:49Dr. John Delony?

  I hear what y'all are saying, but what about this? And the response from one of the psychologists was, that's a brilliant question. And it went down, but here's the thing, I took my, I was listening to some music, I took my headphones off and I said, oh no, because just reading it, it felt good. It did.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Well, AI is very affirming.

• 1:02:09Dr. John Delony?

  It wasn't real.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  It wasn't, it is very affirming and it's, I don't know.

• 1:02:14Dr. John Delony?

  But it shocked me at like.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Have you seen these videos of people doing diabolical things or putting diabolical things in there like, hey, I just cheated on my wife.

• 1:02:23Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah. How do I get away with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  And AI, yeah, and AI will, you know, kick them some message back like, you're a caring person.

• 1:02:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  And you're so concerned about their response. I wonder what happened that would lead you to.

• 1:02:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, instantly.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  It's like, what?

• 1:02:41Dr. John Delony?

  Well, even yesterday, I mean, I just said, two days ago, I was, I was, I was trying to wrestle, you'll understand, I was trying to wrestle with a part of CBT and ACT, ACT, Stephen Hayes work, which I just love. And I was going back and forth. And as I kept going and I was asking this AI platform to help me navigate these things. And as I got to the bottom, I was like, hey, over the course of this interaction, you've shifted to my bias.

• 1:03:12Dr. John Delony?

  Is this one really that wrong? And it said, I mean, it wrote back, you are right. I followed your bias and I shouldn't have done that. That wasn't a true discourse. And I was like, good God almighty, dude. It just followed this trail.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It's what you want to hear.

• 1:03:25Dr. John Delony?

  It made me feel brilliant.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Dr. John Delony?

  And right, I'm going to take down CBT all across. And I was like, well, actually, there's a lot of science on that one, too. So it, yeah, I, I, it keeps me up at night and there's nothing, and that's not helpful because I can't do anything about it.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  I also think that we have an affordability issue in mental health.

• 1:03:46Dr. John Delony?

  That's the problem.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  We have.

• 1:03:48Dr. John Delony?

  It does serve a need.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  We have an affordability and access problem.

• 1:03:52Dr. John Delony?

  Major.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And if AI is your only tool, I guess the question is, is it the worst tool possible?

• 1:04:01Dr. John Delony?

  Well.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:01Dr. John Delony?

  No. But my, my fear though is it will do what everything else does, which it will.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Dr. John Delony?

  It will accelerate haves and have nots.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:09Dr. John Delony?

  Because if you have $300 cash to go sit with the best therapist in town, you're going to get that level of extraordinary care.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Dr. John Delony?

  And if all you have is the free, whatever chatbot download, that's what you're going to use. And man, that, that, that, the acceleration of the have and have nots actually scares me more than, than the access excites me. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  But, you know, for people in therapy, I do think it's, it can be a good supportive tool, right?

• 1:04:39Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  So if I have someone who's like, I'm burnt out, I need to be written out of work for two weeks. Okay, well, let's come up with a wellness schedule. You know, that's something you could slap in there and say, what's a wellness, wake up, stretch, da, da, da, da, da. Okay, that's, you know, that's supportive.

• 1:04:55Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  But if it's you taking the recording of you and your, your sister having an argument and saying, tell me five ways she's a narcissist.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Which happens.

• 1:05:09Dr. John Delony?

  Listen, if I hear that word one more time.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  It happens though. People, I mean, people are using it and it's, it's being used in that way to support, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist or this person has this, da, da, da, da. Oh yeah, because they said this during the argument and da, da, da. So, you know, I think it's, I think it's going to be like any other technology. Like the radio was evil, TV was evil, video games were evil, social media is evil, AI's evil, like, you know, it's a tool.

• 1:05:40Dr. John Delony?

  It's a tool, yeah.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  It's a tool and we humans have to figure out how to live in the world with a tool.

• 1:05:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah. And both the good stuff and the scary stuff, but yeah, I guess my lawnmower in the wrong context is a scary tool.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Dr. John Delony?

  In the right context, it's amazing.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, they can make a whole horror movie about a lawnmower that just.

• 1:06:01Dr. John Delony?

  Takes over the neighborhood.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Takes over and just mows over the humans and you know, like, yeah, it's, you know, it's a tool.

• 1:06:09Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. Do you, and again, I say this with all honesty, there's just a few folks who I feel like can hold tension. And you're one of the most gifted folks I've ever seen do it. And just feeling you, you in this space is the same. And so I want to thank you for like, not keeping your voice behind closed doors in your therapy session and for sharing that with us all. You're gifted at it. Of seeing the madness and sitting in the madness and being like, all right, here's what I'm going to do. And, and I don't want to put this on you, tell me if I'm wrong. It's not only, I don't get this sense from me that it's not only here's what I'm going to do, there's a sense of, here's who I'm going to be in the middle of all this.

• 1:06:52Dr. John Delony?

  And man, that rootedness comes through in such a powerful way.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:06:56Dr. John Delony?

  It's good. Thanks for being there for us.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Thank you.