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A mom wondering if she should intervene in her son’s marriage
A wife trying to break the cycle of abuse
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:05 Speaker 00 He has a history of abnormal sleep behaviors. Normally, they're pretty funny, but a few nights ago, he attacked me in his sleep. Where he was punching me repeatedly, and I was screaming at him to stop.
0:19 Dr. John Delony? Where else does he struggle outside of sleep? Does he struggle with anxiety or depression?
0:29 Dr. John Delony? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, taking your calls, real calls from real people on your mental and emotional health, whatever you've got going on in your life, relationships, your marriages, your kids, all of it. And for those of you who have been with us since episode one, I'm super grateful that you've been with us. And if you are new to the show here in 2026, I'm glad that you're along for the ride. Buckle up and I'd love to hear from you directly. Go to johndeloney.com/ask and get your questions in and we will go from there. All right, let's go out to Raleigh, North Carolina and talk to Phoebe. What's up, Phoebe?
1:06 Speaker 00 Hi, Dr. Deloney.
1:08 Dr. John Delony? How are you?
1:09 Speaker 00 I'm good. Here's the sitch.
1:13 Dr. John Delony? What's the sitch?
1:16 Speaker 00 I am 31 years old. My husband is 29. We've been married for three years. He has a history of abnormal sleep behaviors. Normally, they're pretty funny, but a few nights ago, he attacked me in his sleep. Where he was punching me repeatedly, and I was screaming at him to stop, and it couldn't wake him up. In the aftermath of this, I'd say the energy in the house has shifted. And if he tries to touch me, my whole body tenses up. We just don't know what to do from here.
1:49 Dr. John Delony? Okay. Has he been diagnosed with a sleep behavior disorder?
1:55 Speaker 00 So, we've been to the sleep doctor and psychiatrist in the past. They just tried to give him benzos, which we didn't want to do.
2:03 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
2:06 Dr. John Delony? But is he diagnosed with like a REMS sleep behavior disorder?
2:10 Speaker 00 We think that's what it's going to be. That's our next step to do.
2:15 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
2:19 Dr. John Delony? Where else does he struggle outside of sleep? Does he struggle with anxiety or depression? Bipolar disorder, anything like that?
2:27 Speaker 00 Uh, generalized anxiety.
2:29 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
2:30 Speaker 00 Um, he's a full-time student. He's been going to therapy, which I think is helpful because, uh, his friends aren't really that supportive. They just say, "Oh, that sucks, bro." Uh, versus I have a community of, you know, women that I can connect with after this incident.
2:49 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
2:52 Dr. John Delony? So how can I help?
2:55 Speaker 00 Um, how can we, um, move through this? I mean, is it just therapy? Or I, I kinda feel like I, I was extremely violated by, you know, the person that I live with and am supposed to trust. Um, I mean, it was a pretty brutal kind of beat down.
3:15 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
3:16 Speaker 00 Um, it just does not feel the same anymore.
3:18 Dr. John Delony? Sure. It's terrifying. It's scary.
3:22 Dr. John Delony? Is it, is he abusive in any other aspect of your life?
3:27 Speaker 00 He is not.
3:28 Dr. John Delony? Okay. Is he a safe, loving guy?
3:32 Speaker 00 He is.
3:32 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
3:33 Speaker 00 And he feels very bad about this, extremely guilty.
3:37 Dr. John Delony? Okay. So, and, and the reason I'm asking for context there is, um, the path forward is, is multi-tiered. Number one, getting that diagnosis and then getting a path and throwing medication at it sometimes will help. There's all kinds of, of interventions that are sleep-oriented.
4:00 Dr. John Delony? Um, that just generalized counseling isn't gonna solve.
4:06 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
4:07 Dr. John Delony? But there are CBTI plans for sleep disturbances. But again, I don't know the severity. Uh, you're going to see sleep doctors, y'all are seeing mental health professionals, all that continue to do that, okay? The one thing I would push people for is, I want a, an action plan.
4:24 Dr. John Delony? Okay, that's number one. So y'all are doing those things. The second thing is this.
4:33 Dr. John Delony? How do I live in a lived experience where I wasn't safe?
4:39 Dr. John Delony? But the person who made me unsafe did it at no fault of their own. Okay?
4:46 Dr. John Delony? So, um, this may be a bad horrible analogy, but it's kind of like he was driving the car and you were a passenger. And um, while he was driving, the bridge fell out from underneath him.
5:02 Dr. John Delony? And you got badly hurt.
5:05 Dr. John Delony? That doesn't mean he's a bad driver. That doesn't mean he's an unsafe driver.
5:12 Dr. John Delony? Right? And it would not be abnormal. It makes perfect sense to me that when you get in the car again, your body tenses up and you don't want to drive with him. That makes sense. Okay?
5:26 Dr. John Delony? So the path forward is, is that in a nerd world, they would call it exposure. I am going to, when I feel my body tense up, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit by him on the couch for 10 minutes and I'm just gonna hold his hand. I'm gonna feel that tension I have.
5:44 Dr. John Delony? And I'm gonna let my body experience his safety and his, uh, our safety. And his compassion through that.
5:54 Dr. John Delony? And at the same time, I might not feel comfortable sleeping in a bed with him until this all gets worked out and that's okay.
6:04 Dr. John Delony? But
6:05 Speaker 02 I do like that idea.
6:07 Dr. John Delony? You just, you think of it this way, your body's working right. It's trying to keep you safe and it has said, that guy not safe. Well, that's not the full picture. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna teach our body that in that moment, in this situation, we're not safe yet. But this guy is.
6:28 Dr. John Delony? In this context, on this couch, in this car, at this kitchen table. This guy's safe. He loves me.
6:40 Dr. John Delony? His body is really going through it when he sleeps and it traps him. You get the difference there?
6:48 Speaker 00 I do. I think I'm also struggling with, um, we've been doing the whole IVF thing trying to have kids. And then I worry about if he's sleep deprived, you know, with a baby and, you know, would do something to hurt the baby. I mean, he is very, when he is asleep, he is very convincing that he is awake. He can turn the light on, walk around, make eye contact with you, have a conversation and he's actually asleep.
7:17 Dr. John Delony? Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's bring those conversations on, put them on the table. That's a real concern.
7:25 Dr. John Delony? It's an unlikely concern, but it's a real concern. And how do we know this? Cause you lived through it.
7:32 Dr. John Delony? And part of an anxiety response is dragging any future thing that could happen into the future and dragging it into the present and trying to solve it now.
7:43 Dr. John Delony? Right?
7:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, we don't have to solve it now.
7:45 Dr. John Delony? Right. But let's, let's, let's put it on the table. Could he, while you're crashed out of sleep after having like, um, been up for, for 72 straight hours? Could he fall asleep with your kid right next to him and have an episode? Yep.
8:03 Dr. John Delony? That could happen. Do we need to solve for that? Yep, we sure do.
8:09 Dr. John Delony? But do we need to worry about that every minute right this second? I don't think we're there. I think we need to definitely put this stuff on the table with a professional and get some guided insight into, we gotta dig into this challenge.
8:28 Dr. John Delony? Or let me ask you another question, okay?
8:32 Dr. John Delony? Is this enough of a jolt?
8:36 Dr. John Delony? That you're gonna leave the marriage?
8:41 Speaker 00 I am not, but I'll be honest, the night that it happened, that was going through my head is that I don't feel safe and oh my God, we're trying to have a baby and who's gonna kill the baby and I was spiraling really hard and then, you know, Googling and you know, Google says everything is the end of the world.
9:03 Dr. John Delony? Of course.
9:04 Speaker 00 I think I've kind of pulled myself out of, out of that.
9:08 Dr. John Delony? Okay. If you have somebody in your home with violent sleep disturbances, if he has a diagnosed sleep disorder and part of his acting out is violence, that's very, very real. Okay? That is something that you need to have on your radar for yourself and for any kids you'll bring into the home. Totally true. Your exercise here, or your work here, if you will, is A, co-creating a solution with him. We're gonna fight like mad dogs to get this thing under control and to get to some solutions here.
9:53 Dr. John Delony? And I'm gonna do my best to lean into the discomfort, because when he's awake, he's the best. He's the guy I married. He's the guy I wanna start a family with. And I'm gonna teach my body that when we're sitting on the couch together, when my foot touches his under the kitchen table, when we're out with friends, this guy's the safest place I could be. And that's, it's a both and, it's a paradox, it's hard. But both of those things are true, right?
10:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's quite the dichotomy.
10:29 Dr. John Delony? It is. But just sitting on the side and yelling, "That's a dichotomy, that's a dichotomy", that's not helpful, right? I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna get in the dichotomy with him. And when he's asleep, I'm gonna go upstairs and sleep with the door shut, with it locked for a season, till we get this thing under control. That's cool, it's great. Same as if I get the flu, my wife's gonna sleep in the guest room. Of course she is, and vice versa.
10:57 Dr. John Delony? Right, and I'm not trying to minimize what happened. What happened to you is terrifying and scary, and you have a lived experience of the man you love, the guy that's about to be the father of your kids, throwing punches at you. Horrifying, right?
11:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I never expected that to happen.
11:13 Dr. John Delony? No, but he didn't either, right?
11:17 Speaker 00 No.
11:18 Dr. John Delony? Nobody expects to be driving over a concrete and steel bridge and have it just cave out from underneath them.
11:25 Dr. John Delony? And I guess, I guess,
11:33 Dr. John Delony? is there a world where
11:37 Dr. John Delony? you can
11:40 Dr. John Delony? experience this as something that happened to you?
11:44 Dr. John Delony? And something that happened to him?
11:48 Dr. John Delony? And something that happened to y'all?
11:52 Dr. John Delony? You get what I'm saying?
11:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm hoping to get to a place to accept this as, you know, an event that happened that we can get through, rather than, oh my God, this is gonna destroy our whole relationship.
12:07 Dr. John Delony? Sure, yeah.
12:11 Dr. John Delony? But my guess is, based on what you've told me about him, he can't breathe either.
12:18 Speaker 00 No, he has been really torn up about it.
12:22 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
12:24 Dr. John Delony? And not by your hand, but in y'all's lap, now your marriage is different.
12:31 Dr. John Delony? That happened to y'all, and to you, and to him.
12:37 Dr. John Delony? Right? And so, the path forward is, how do I, A, keep myself and him? How do we stay safe?
12:45 Dr. John Delony? Through appropriate, good
12:50 Dr. John Delony? medical care, and psychiatric care, and mental health care?
12:55 Dr. John Delony? We're gonna attack this thing head-on. And, how do I keep myself safe, just on the regs, right? And, that's not gonna be fun, right? You don't wanna sleep by yourself forever. It's gonna be like this forever. It's not, right? And also, how do I lean in and reteach my body, you know what? When this guy has an episode, unsafe. When he's awakened with me, there is no safer place.
13:23 Dr. John Delony? Let me say this way, you're not going to be able to feel or think your way towards that. You're gonna have to act it. You're gonna have to live it, lean into it. Because your body's just trying to keep you safe, and it will do so whether it's rational or not.
13:43 Dr. John Delony? Does that make sense?
13:44 Speaker 00 Uh huh. It does.
13:46 Dr. John Delony? It's not easy, though, huh?
13:49 Speaker 00 No, but me and him are so in sync on so many things and so in love that I think that we can do it. That sounds so cliche.
14:01 Dr. John Delony? I know, I freaking love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Alright, so, here's what tonight looks like.
14:09 Dr. John Delony? Y'all, you tell him,
14:14 Dr. John Delony? "My body's trying to take care of me, and I know you're not a bad guy. I know you're not the scary one.
14:20 Dr. John Delony? And so I'm gonna start practicing, getting close to you, and my body's gonna tense up, and I'm gonna wanna withdraw my hand, and I'm gonna force myself to, and it's gonna be weird from you, because you're gonna feel your wife tensing up. We're gonna, we're gonna relearn this thing together." And by the way, he's gonna be insanely gentle with you, because he has, does not want to ever hurt the woman of his dreams. Right?
14:41 Speaker 00 Correct.
14:42 Dr. John Delony? So, we're gonna practice that in real time.
14:45 Dr. John Delony? And practically speaking, he's gonna get his feelings hurt, or he's gonna be sad, or maybe he's relieved. You're gonna be sad, but we're gonna sleep in separate rooms for a while until we get this thing under control.
14:58 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
14:59 Dr. John Delony? Cool.
14:59 Speaker 00 He's willing to do whatever to, you know, help us with this.
15:03 Dr. John Delony? Of course he is. Alright, and I want you to be willing to do whatever, too.
15:07 Dr. John Delony? Right?
15:08 Speaker 00 Good point.
15:10 Dr. John Delony? Because this happened to you, this happened to him, but this happened to y'all. And again, if he was a violent man, you've listened to my show, totally different conversation we're happening.
15:21 Speaker 00 Oh, I know. I think one of the hardest parts is I never realized that there was nuance behind, you know, if your man ever lays a hand on you.
15:30 Dr. John Delony? Right. When he's unconscious, in amidst a psychiatric disorder, oh geez, what to do with that, right?
15:36 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
15:38 Dr. John Delony? So, it's just hard. It's hard.
15:44 Dr. John Delony? But him knowing, "I'm on your team. I'm gonna stay safe. I'm gonna keep you safe, but I'm on your team. We're gonna figure this out. We're getting to the bottom of this thing."
15:52 Dr. John Delony? That, to me, sounds like a pretty amazing path towards healing.
15:57 Dr. John Delony? Yeah. And for whatever it's worth, as I hang up this call, if you're surrounded by a team of experts and they tell you,
16:11 Dr. John Delony? "The path forward for the season and maybe beyond is pharmacological, is medicine." Be grateful you live in a season, a little snapshot of life where we've got medicine to help with some of these things. That's not the end of time. It's not the worst thing. And if that's what it needs to be, that's what it is. And we'll keep searching for things. We'll keep working on things. We'll keep working on underlying issues and all that kind of stuff. But if that's where we need to be for now, great. Awesome. Onto the next.
16:43 Dr. John Delony? Thank you for the call, sister. Gosh, what a scary, scary thing. Scary thing.
16:51 Dr. John Delony? Glad you both got each other. As you all rebuild from this scary episode.
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18:14 Dr. John Delony? Let's go out to Miami, Florida and talk to Becky. Hey Becky, what's going on?
18:18 Speaker 03 My question is, should I intervene in my son's troubled marriage or stay out of it?
18:24 Dr. John Delony? Oh no. What does intervene mean?
18:28 Speaker 03 Uh, I was up there recently for Christmas and their home is just in chaos and full of tension or full of, you know, just tension and avoidance. And there's no affection between them. They're pretty much living parallel lives. She stayed down the basement the majority of the time when I was there. They don't seem to interact much. Their finances are separately. It's just, it just seems like it's a total mess and I just see it imploding any day now.
19:13 Dr. John Delony? What's your relationship like with your son? Y'all close?
19:20 Speaker 03 Um, no. He had cut me off for like the last 14 months or so.
19:26 Dr. John Delony? Why did he cut you off?
19:29 Speaker 03 I wasn't really sure. I was thinking, okay, um, you know, is it this adult, the child estrangement thing? That seems to be a big thing now. And then listening to your podcast and other things about it, it, they're saying, okay, that I need to take a look at what is my role in this.
19:58 Dr. John Delony? Can I, can I just stop you right there a second?
20:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:01 Dr. John Delony? You're amazing.
20:03 Speaker 03 Are you?
20:04 Dr. John Delony? Yes.
20:06 Dr. John Delony? Yes.
20:07 Speaker 03 Thank you.
20:07 Dr. John Delony? If anybody, listen, if anybody, especially on something as sensitive as this topic, anybody who gets in a relationship conflict and first goes to the mirror and says, and just asks, "Did I play any part of this? What responsibilities, what ownership do I need to take here?" The whole world would be different.
20:28 Speaker 03 Hmm.
20:30 Dr. John Delony? And it's especially hard when it comes to your son, because if you're like me, like all parents I know, there are things, numerous things that you would like to do over or have back. Is that fair?
20:42 Speaker 03 Oh, tons of it, yes.
20:44 Dr. John Delony? There you go. There you go. Okay, so that can be a heavy burden. It's heavy when you realize I said something to a coworker that hurt their feelings. It's nightmarishly heavy when it comes to, "I did or said things that hurt my kid."
20:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:00 Dr. John Delony? Or maybe I didn't even hurt them, but man, there are things I could have done way, way better.
21:05 Speaker 03 Oh, definitely.
21:07 Dr. John Delony? Right? That's heavy. So I applaud you, Becky. I applaud you. Good on you. Good on you. Okay, so you went to the mirror. What'd you find?
21:17 Speaker 03 I feel that I failed him when he was a child.
21:24 Dr. John Delony? How so? That's strong language. How'd you fail him?
21:28 Speaker 03 Um, you know, when he was, when he was little, and you know, I'm trying to teach him things and stuff like that, and I, you know, the kids are supposed to go and clean up their room. And like, I would make him go, you know, put him in his room and say, "Okay, clean up your room." And I'd come back, you know, an hour and a half later, whatever, and nothing had changed. Nothing was cleaned up, and I just thought, "Okay, he's just being a brat. I'm just gonna let him live like this. Then if he wants to live in a messy room, let him live in a messy room."
22:10 Speaker 03 And I was failing at that time to realize that he didn't have a clue what to do.
22:18 Dr. John Delony? Hmm. It was a skills issue, not a character issue, huh?
22:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, it's it's like, what I'm finding out now is that I think he was suffering from anxiety or ADHD or something at that time, you know, when this was the start of it because there was so much tension in our home and, um, you know, it's like, I didn't recognize that and it was over forty years ago and that stuff wasn't recognized and brought to people's attention and it's like, I had no idea.
22:58 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
22:58 Speaker 03 You know, I just thought he was being a little brat.
23:01 Dr. John Delony? Sure. And and honest, can we just say, he probably also kinda was doing that too? It's both and, right? Kids can be brats too, right?
23:08 Speaker 03 Pardon me?
23:10 Dr. John Delony? Ki- like, kids can be brats too.
23:13 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
23:15 Dr. John Delony? But it it it's probably all of it. Okay, so so fast forward me all the way till now, he cut you off. He didn't cut you off because of what happened forty years ago. Why did he decide fourteen months ago, I'm going no contact with my mom? What happened? Was there a thing that happened?
23:31 Speaker 03 No, not really, no, there wasn't.
23:36 Dr. John Delony? Did he, did he give you some big announcement, some long text message that said, I'm officially cutting you off? Like, how did it happen? Or he just stopped returning your calls?
23:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, he just wouldn't pick up the phone, he wouldn't return my texts, there was just nothing, there was, you know?
23:50 Dr. John Delony? How did your invitation to come visit him for the holidays come to be?
23:53 Speaker 03 All of a sudden, that he just picked up the phone and he talked to me friendly and it was like, I'm not sure how to, what to say, but I mean, it's like, all of a sudden, he was talking like nothing had ever happened.
24:15 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
24:16 Speaker 03 But in also, I have to to say, when I was married to this father, it was a, an abusive relationship.
24:24 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
24:25 Speaker 03 It was mainly verbally abusive, but it also was, uh, physically abusive and I was seeing it that it was turning more and more towards that. And, um, I had to get out of that marriage. I was just, I was so broken.
24:52 Speaker 03 Emotionally, mentally, that I just, I was just out of it.
25:01 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
25:02 Speaker 03 And I was going through, you know, I tried to go to counseling with my husband at that time, and he just did not believe in it. And so he would tell my son all the time, "Well, your mother is crazy. She belongs in an insane asylum. Anybody that goes to counseling is crazy."
25:26 Dr. John Delony? Hmm.
25:28 Speaker 03 And, um, you know, the counselors had told me at that time that, you know, it's like, uh, it's gonna be very tough out there and stuff. And I knew that he was going to cut me off without a dime. I was gonna be completely on my own to restart all over again. And I was afraid how I was going to take care of my son. And out of, the counselors
26:06 Speaker 03 were telling me that at that age of 12 years old, that the, uh, the courts allow the child to make a decision as to who he wants to stay with. And I, you know, um, he chose to stay with his father.
26:24 Dr. John Delony? Mm-hmm.
26:26 Speaker 03 And, I mean, it's like, I have had so much guilt and shame because of that decision that I left my son.
26:40 Dr. John Delony? Hmm.
26:42 Speaker 03 And I feel like I failed him at that time. And I have apologized to him so many times.
26:53 Dr. John Delony? Hmm. What does he say when you apologize?
27:00 Speaker 03 He, the last time that I did, you know, when I was up there, he said, "Yeah, yeah, that's over with, that's in the past."
27:08 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
27:09 Speaker 03 But I don't know if it is.
27:11 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
27:12 Speaker 03 At least it isn't for me, and I'm hanging on to that guilt.
27:15 Dr. John Delony? Okay. So, a couple of big things here, okay?
27:18 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:19 Dr. John Delony? Number one, you are exactly right. In the seventies and eighties, it's a very different world now. Okay?
27:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:27 Dr. John Delony? I want to applaud you for choosing safety.
27:29 Speaker 03 Thank you.
27:30 Dr. John Delony? That was, I mean, forty years ago, that was, I mean, you were just legally, just barely allowed to get a mortgage on your own, or to get your own checking account. Right?
27:41 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:42 Dr. John Delony? That was a whole new world, and it's easy to look back from 2026 lens and go, "I can't believe you did X, Y, and Z." It's the way it was. The courts put kids in insane positions to get them to choose. It's madness. No kid can carry that weight. Right?
28:00 Speaker 03 Right.
28:01 Dr. John Delony? And, kids don't understand abuse, they understand candy and free time, and, right? And so, I mean, I say that wrong, kids do understand abuse, but they don't understand the dynamics in a marriage. They just know tension, not tension, and if one parent is trying to take the high road and shield them, and the other parent is saying, "She's the reason why all the tensions in the house," of course twelve children are gonna fall, right? So, here's all this to say. Um, is there some truth that you left your son with an abusive man? Yeah. There is.
28:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:34 Dr. John Delony? Let's own, let's just own it. You have. Did you, was your son a victim of that abuse, over time?
28:39 Speaker 03 You know, I think, you know, his, uh, telling him how awful I was, and that I never loved him, otherwise I could have never left him.
28:53 Dr. John Delony? Sure. All that's, all that's, all that insanity that your husband, your ex-husband spewed all over your child, but I'm talking about... You know what, that's not even a good line of questioning. Let's just, let me, let me pause right there, okay?
29:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
29:04 Dr. John Delony? Let's get right back to the original, original question.
29:08 Speaker 03 Alright.
29:09 Dr. John Delony? You're watching replay in real time, an experience you lived through, with somebody you love, right?
29:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, he's not, he's not abusive.
29:21 Dr. John Delony? Hold on, hold on, hold on, that you know of.
29:24 Speaker 03 That I know of, yeah.
29:25 Dr. John Delony? Right. And, who knows what he's experiencing at home? Who knows that the last year, he didn't text or call as much, or at all, if he was trying to keep his head above water, keep his marriage duct tape together. It may have just gotten away from him. Maybe it was a pointed, I'm cutting you off, maybe. But maybe it was also, I'm just trying to get through each day, because it's chaos here. Who knows?
29:49 Speaker 03 I think, yeah, I think that might be a lot of it, because I mean, it's like, that house is, it's in disrepair, it's just a total mess, there's junk all over.
30:03 Dr. John Delony? Okay, hold on. Here's what your son needs more than anything in the world, okay?
30:07 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:09 Dr. John Delony? Actually, I don't know what your son needs, and I especially don't know what he wants.
30:15 Dr. John Delony? But I can give you a hint, that almost every son I know
30:20 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:21 Dr. John Delony? Wants to know that his mom's proud of him, that she believes in him.
30:27 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:27 Dr. John Delony? And that no matter how old they both are, she's still got his back.
30:32 Speaker 03 Yes, that's what I need to know. How, how can I be there for him during this rough time?
30:42 Dr. John Delony? You become the safest place possible.
30:48 Speaker 03 And how do I do that?
30:49 Dr. John Delony? Call him once a week. You call him, until he says, "Stop calling me." And tell him, "I just wanted to tell you today, I'm proud of the man you've become. I'm proud of the dad you are. If you ever need anything in the world..."
31:07 Dr. John Delony? Your number two cheerleader, which you should be number two behind his wife. You're, one of your biggest cheerleaders in the world is right here.
31:15 Speaker 03 Well, his, his wife confided in me when I was up there that she hates the house. She thinks he has ADD or severe anxiety, which truly drives her nuts. She really didn't picture herself being with a man who has children. She's, and she's considering moving into their camper trailer.
31:38 Dr. John Delony? Okay, okay, but don't get triangulated into that.
31:42 Dr. John Delony? She's trying to drag his mother into her side so she can win.
31:47 Speaker 03 I see.
31:48 Dr. John Delony? Cause you know why? I've got ADD too.
31:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
31:52 Dr. John Delony? I've got anxiety too.
31:55 Dr. John Delony? And my wife will burn down this side of the earth for me.
32:00 Dr. John Delony? And I've had to make some pretty significant changes. I've had to go get well and all that kind of stuff too. It's a context. It's not an excuse. That's all I'm saying. Okay? And I'm sure your son plays his part and I'm sure she plays it. Who know, who knows? What I'm, what I want to tell you is in the same way you experienced,
32:20 Dr. John Delony? nobody really knew what was going on inside your house growing up. They just were able to listen to one story and pin you as the bad guy. Don't do that same, don't make that same mistake in their home.
32:31 Speaker 03 Okay.
32:31 Dr. John Delony? Just let your son know, I'm proud of you and if you ever need anything, I'm right here. And the only way that can be done is through repetition, through not throwing solutions and fixes and you need to's and you should've, none of that. I just thought I needed to call you today. I wanted to call you today and tell you, I'm so glad I get to be your mom. I'm proud of the man you're becoming.
32:59 Dr. John Delony? I'm always in your corner. That's it.
33:04 Speaker 03 Thank you. Thank you. That's simple and yet it's to the point. And what if, what if he doesn't pick up the phone again? Which, I mean, it's like I've tried calling him several times.
33:15 Dr. John Delony? If he doesn't pick up the phone, you, you may have a 30 year history of every phone call turns into and a big apology and what about the, who knows? I don't know y'all's history. If he won't pick up the phone, you can leave him a voicemail or you can text it to him.
33:29 Speaker 03 Okay.
33:30 Dr. John Delony? And what you, he'll have
33:34 Dr. John Delony? is six months of voice messages
33:39 Dr. John Delony? and text once a week, not crazy, not every five minutes.
33:43 Speaker 03 Right.
33:44 Dr. John Delony? But it will slowly seep in that woman's on my team.
33:48 Speaker 03 Okay.
33:49 Dr. John Delony? And by the way, this is really a vulnerable move for you because he might tell you, stop calling me mom. And if he does that, you're gonna have to have a season of grief, heartbreak, sadness. And you've had a hell of a lot of that, right?
34:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
34:05 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
34:09 Dr. John Delony? But I promise you, the person who knows more than anybody how tense his house is, is him.
34:17 Speaker 03 Okay.
34:19 Dr. John Delony? He, he, it's not like you're gonna be like, you know what? I noticed these things. And he's gonna go, no way. That's what it is. He knows, he knows.
34:26 Dr. John Delony? My guess is he probably has nobody on his team.
34:30 Speaker 03 No, he does not.
34:31 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
34:32 Speaker 03 They, they don't go anywhere. He doesn't have any friends.
34:36 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
34:36 Speaker 03 He, you know, there's nobody.
34:39 Dr. John Delony? I'm proud of you. I'm so glad that I get to be your mom.
34:45 Dr. John Delony? I'm always on your team.
34:48 Dr. John Delony? And if you have a history of fill in the blank, tell him.
34:53 Dr. John Delony? For the last 30 years, I've bombed you with advice and trying to lecture you. I'm not doing that anymore. I just want you to know I see you and I love you.
35:01 Speaker 02 Okay.
35:04 Dr. John Delony? And maybe if you have things that left unsaid that you like, I really want to tell him this, you start a journal and write all that down. And maybe one day he'll knock on your door and be like, Mom, I need some help. And you'll be like, ha, I've got a book. I'm ready, right? But what he needs to know right now is that his mom is proud of him. His mom loves him. His mom's on his team.
35:23 Dr. John Delony? I'm not going to give you advice you don't ask for. I'm not going to tell you what you should have done, or I made this. Because if he wants that stuff, he'll ask for it. He may not even know if he can ask for it. But if he said, Mom, it's in the past, stop apologizing, then listen to your son and stop apologizing. One way to do that, Becky, is I would write 22-year-old you a letter and let that woman off the hook. You've beaten her up enough. Enough.
35:53 Dr. John Delony? Write her a letter. So you're proud of her for doing the brave, scary thing. You regret that she walked out on her, all those things, all that stuff. Write her a letter. And then stop carrying that brick with you into the present. It's just weighing you down now.
36:10 Dr. John Delony? I hate that he's going through this. I hate that you're going through this. And for all parents out there, what I'm hearing over and over from folks when I challenge them, I'm cutting my parents off. It's not that they don't want to be around their parents. It's that they're tired of the lectures. They're tired of, even in their adulthood, feeling less than. They're tired of being told, you should have. What kids really need to know is, my God, I'm proud of you. My God, I'm worried about you. My God, I love you. My God, if you ever need me, I won't, I won't, I won't lecture you. I'll just listen. I'm here.
36:45 Dr. John Delony? That's what folks, I'm hearing over and over, need. Thanks for the call, Becky. I love your heart. You've done some brave stuff over the years. Of course, you've got stuff you want to take back. All of those stories have a period at the end. The only question is, what story are you going to write next? Let that be one of support, care, presence. We come back. A woman asks how to avoid wanting to get back into an abusive relationship. We'll be right back.
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38:28 Dr. John Delony? All right, we're back. Let's go to Denver, Colorado and talk to Katie. Hey Katie, what's up?
38:33 Speaker 04 Hi, Dr. John.
38:34 Dr. John Delony? What's up?
38:36 Speaker 04 Um, I was calling today because I recently got out of an abusive relationship and I-
38:42 Dr. John Delony? Oh, man, I'm sorry.
38:44 Speaker 04 Well, again, I have tried to leave and have gone back and I just find myself missing him and like wanting to go back and I just, I want to know how to move on.
38:53 Dr. John Delony? Oh, man, I'm so sorry. How long were you all together?
38:58 Speaker 04 We were together for, um, like two years and then off and on for the last year.
39:06 Dr. John Delony? How old are you?
39:07 Speaker 04 Twenty.
39:08 Dr. John Delony? Twenty.
39:10 Dr. John Delony? How old is he?
39:12 Speaker 04 Also twenty.
39:15 Dr. John Delony? So, as much as you feel comfortable, talk to me about the abuse.
39:20 Speaker 04 Yeah, so it was, I mean, everything you can think of and it started only three months in, which I find is kind of uncommon in those things, but it was physical, mostly sexual and, um, psychological.
39:41 Dr. John Delony? So why do you want to get out?
39:45 Speaker 04 Because I don't deserve that.
39:46 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
39:49 Dr. John Delony? That's true.
39:53 Dr. John Delony? Go one step deeper.
39:56 Speaker 04 Um.
40:00 Speaker 04 Someone will love me better.
40:03 Dr. John Delony? Okay, keep going.
40:06 Speaker 04 I love myself more.
40:07 Dr. John Delony? There we go.
40:11 Dr. John Delony? Yeah. I want more. I'm worth more.
40:15 Speaker 04 Yeah.
40:19 Dr. John Delony? So this is going to sound like a crazy line of questions. Will you go with me on it?
40:23 Speaker 04 Yeah.
40:24 Dr. John Delony? What makes him awesome? What makes him wonderful?
40:28 Speaker 04 Um.
40:30 Speaker 04 He...
40:32 Speaker 04 Like, at the beginning, and when he goes back into that nice stage to get me back, he's really nice.
40:37 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
40:39 Dr. John Delony? What does really nice mean?
40:42 Speaker 04 Um. He cares, like, he showed that he cares about me by,
40:49 Speaker 04 I don't know, like, doing things and asking questions about my day and talking to me.
40:56 Dr. John Delony? That's just like basic human interaction.
40:59 Speaker 04 Yeah.
41:00 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
41:02 Speaker 04 Yeah.
41:03 Dr. John Delony? What makes it hard to leave?
41:07 Speaker 04 I think I...
41:09 Speaker 04 Actually, I know that I... I get scared that he's going to change for someone else.
41:16 Speaker 04 And that I'm going to miss out on that.
41:18 Dr. John Delony? What would you be missing out on?
41:22 Speaker 04 I don't know, him not being abusive.
41:25 Dr. John Delony? Yeah. So, the cycle of abuse, it's frustratingly routine.
41:35 Speaker 04 Yeah.
41:35 Dr. John Delony? Which is it builds, and it builds, and it builds, and then there's a big explosion, there's a big incident.
41:43 Dr. John Delony? And in the abuser, this build, this pressure release, is gone.
41:50 Dr. John Delony? They can see the world a little more clearly. And they become
41:56 Dr. John Delony? the most, um, glorious versions of themselves.
42:06 Dr. John Delony? And for those who love them,
42:12 Dr. John Delony? it's really easy to believe the lie that that's the true them.
42:19 Dr. John Delony? And that if you could say something different, if you could act a little bit different, if you just didn't put yourself in this position, if you just didn't wear this thing, if you just were enough or right, then they would be free to do, to be their full glorious self all the time.
42:38 Dr. John Delony? Or maybe somebody else out there would say and do the right things so they could be their glorious self all the time. All of that points back to, it's the reason I was asking the question at the beginning, it points back to a strong, scared young woman who looks in the mirror and thinks, "The problem here at its root is me."
43:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:04 Dr. John Delony? And hear me say this with as much clarity as I can, "You're not the problem."
43:15 Speaker 02 Thank you.
43:15 Dr. John Delony? You're good.
43:18 Dr. John Delony? And Ken, I don't think I've ever even talked through this on the show before. Can I, can we go a little bit deeper for a second?
43:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:28 Dr. John Delony? One thing I've heard from folks over and over who've been in abusive relationships is, "There's the abuse, there's the pain, there's the hurt, there's the,
43:40 Dr. John Delony? somebody's taking my autonomy from me," all that stuff.
43:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:44 Dr. John Delony? And underneath it,
43:47 Dr. John Delony? there's that question of, "Why did you, being you Katie, why did I allow this?"
43:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:55 Dr. John Delony? "What kind of person am I?" And you begin to, almost in a weird way, it's probably, this is the wrong word to use, but it becomes like a circular gaslighting of yourself.
44:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:08 Dr. John Delony? You lose trust in you. "I can't even make good choices on safety."
44:14 Dr. John Delony? "I must be the problem," like, right? And so it's not even a matter of just leaving him.
44:21 Dr. John Delony? It's a matter of how do I look in the mirror and trust myself again? I did that with that guy multiple times, right?
44:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:32 Dr. John Delony? And sometimes, instead of facing ourselves, it's easier just to, man,
44:39 Dr. John Delony? think we can protect ourselves and go back in, looking for that quote unquote "true glorious" version of that person.
44:50 Dr. John Delony? So hear me say this as directly as I can.
44:54 Dr. John Delony? You're worth trusting yourself.
44:58 Dr. John Delony? This is an incredibly unsafe relationship, and you know it. And, yes, you deserve better, and you want better, and you're worth better.
45:11 Dr. John Delony? And you're worth trusting yourself. And the way we're going to learn to trust ourselves is to do the next hard thing, even if it feels lonely, scary, whatever. Okay?
45:26 Dr. John Delony? Just because it hurts doesn't mean it's not the next right move.
45:31 Speaker 02 No.
45:38 Dr. John Delony? All right, let me say it directly. I'm talking to you as though I was talking to my 10-year-old daughter. Please, run.
45:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:46 Dr. John Delony? And don't look back.
45:48 Speaker 02 Yep.
45:53 Dr. John Delony? And if you need two or three girlfriends to call when you want to call them, have that. And you're not crazy when you want to call them.
46:02 Speaker 02 Thank you.
46:03 Dr. John Delony? You're not crazy if you miss them. You're not crazy if you're constantly asking yourself, what was it? That's just, that's just part of, that's what makes being in an abusive relationship so damaging. It severs you from yourself.
46:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:23 Dr. John Delony? Do you live with him?
46:26 Speaker 02 No.
46:26 Dr. John Delony? Okay. Are you economically independent? Can you pay your own bills?
46:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:31 Dr. John Delony? You have a place to go?
46:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:34 Dr. John Delony? You have a safe place to go?
46:37 Speaker 02 Um, yeah.
46:39 Dr. John Delony? You paused on that one. Where are you gonna go?
46:42 Speaker 02 Um, I, uh, my therapist and I had to make a plan and he doesn't know where my aunt and uncle live.
46:49 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
46:52 Dr. John Delony? Is it time for a restraining order?
46:56 Speaker 02 Um, that's the other fun part is his whole family is intertwined with mine. Um, so...
47:06 Dr. John Delony? Have you sat down and talked to your folks? Are they trustworthy?
47:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:10 Dr. John Delony? What'd they say?
47:13 Speaker 02 Um, well, my mom doesn't want me to go back, obviously, but she also doesn't want me to, like, take any legal action, cause, and I have to relive it.
47:34 Dr. John Delony? Does she have experience with this?
47:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:38 Dr. John Delony? She does?
47:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:41 Dr. John Delony? From your dad?
47:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:43 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
47:48 Dr. John Delony? I'm so sorry, Katie.
47:51 Speaker 02 Thank you.
48:03 Dr. John Delony? I guess what I would tell you is you're, you're reliving it anyway.
48:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, I have, um, like flashbacks and...
48:14 Dr. John Delony? Of course.
48:16 Speaker 02 Mess with my sleep, so I, I got diagnosed PTSD and I, and looking into EMDR, but...
48:25 Dr. John Delony? But all of those solutions, all of that healing?
48:30 Dr. John Delony? The hitting's gotta stop first.
48:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:33 Dr. John Delony? Right?
48:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:40 Dr. John Delony? And
48:45 Dr. John Delony? I'm brokenhearted with you over the abuse. I'm brokenhearted on you, I mean with you over what this just does to your insides, like how you can trust yourself. And my God, I'm brokenhearted
49:00 Dr. John Delony? that you've got people in your family who've experienced this too, and their story and their choices are encouraging you to remain, in many ways, to stay unsafe.
49:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
49:16 Dr. John Delony? Or let me say it from a healthy relationship. I don't care how intertwined my family is with somebody. If somebody hurts my daughter, we get untangled real, real quick.
49:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
49:29 Dr. John Delony? And I'm not the only one. I'm not some tough macho guy. I'm every other dad I know of.
49:38 Dr. John Delony? Okay?
49:40 Speaker 04 Okay.
49:45 Dr. John Delony? Is your uncle and your aunt a safe place?
49:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
49:50 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
49:52 Speaker 04 And they know what happened?
49:55 Dr. John Delony? Then do they know about your dad and your mom's situation too?
50:00 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:00 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
50:05 Dr. John Delony? Would you do yourself the honor of asking their wisdom on restraining orders and getting the authorities involved and getting some legal separation between the two of you so he can't just find you and show up?
50:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, I will.
50:19 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
50:21 Speaker 04 I don't, I go to college in a different town from my hometown. And the police up here, like you're technically not allowed in this town, but then when I go home, it just makes it difficult to you.
50:33 Dr. John Delony? It may be that we're not going to go home for a while then.
50:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:37 Dr. John Delony? And we're gonna have to grieve that too. He took that away also.
50:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:43 Dr. John Delony? Or your dad isn't a person of character enough to create a safe place for his baby to, girl to come home, no matter how old she is.
50:50 Speaker 04 Yeah.
50:52 Dr. John Delony? And you've been grieving that loss for a long time, huh?
50:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:56 Dr. John Delony? Yeah.
50:59 Dr. John Delony? It's a strange, weird thing how our bodies go to what it knows.
51:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:04 Dr. John Delony? It goes to what it remembers, even if what it remembers is, is, is bad.
51:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:14 Dr. John Delony? So if your uncle and your aunt are great people and they can model for you, this is what a healthy, a healthy home feels like.
51:24 Dr. John Delony? This is what safety feels like. Your body doesn't even know what that feels like.
51:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:30 Dr. John Delony? This is what love looks like.
51:36 Dr. John Delony? What's your dad say when you told him?
51:39 Speaker 02 Um, we actually don't talk anymore.
51:42 Dr. John Delony? Okay, good for you.
51:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:49 Dr. John Delony? Are your mom and dad still married?
51:51 Speaker 02 No.
51:52 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
52:00 Dr. John Delony? We'll make it a every semester thing to check back in with your campus police department to make sure. And I did that work for 20 years, working with campus officers to keep my students safe from off-campus
52:12 Dr. John Delony? exes. Okay?
52:14 Speaker 02 Okay.
52:15 Dr. John Delony? It can be done.
52:17 Speaker 02 Okay.
52:18 Dr. John Delony? And all of these actions you take are tiny little steps towards regaining trust in you.
52:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:26 Dr. John Delony? That you're not what he says you are, and you're not what he did to you.
52:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:32 Dr. John Delony? Okay?
52:34 Speaker 02 Thank you.
52:36 Dr. John Delony? Keep these two words in your head at all times. Seek safety.
52:42 Speaker 02 Okay.
52:42 Dr. John Delony? Okay?
52:46 Dr. John Delony? Cool.
52:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, thank you.
52:50 Dr. John Delony? You're gonna want, I mean, you call me anytime.
52:53 Speaker 02 Okay.
52:54 Dr. John Delony? And we'll put you through, okay?
52:56 Speaker 02 Okay, thank you.
52:57 Dr. John Delony? You're the bravest person I've talked to today. I'm proud of you.
53:01 Speaker 02 Thank you.
53:02 Dr. John Delony? Okay.
53:04 Speaker 02 Thank you.
53:05 Dr. John Delony? Today's day one. You in?
53:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
53:09 Dr. John Delony? Okay, I'm proud of you. We're blocking everything today. We're done. We're gonna run from this dude as far as possible.
53:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, thank you.
53:18 Dr. John Delony? All right, blessings to you, sister.
53:20 Speaker 02 Thank you.
53:21 Dr. John Delony? We'll be right back.
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54:45 Dr. John Delony? All right, we're back. Alex, taking the, the car keys from Kelly 1.0. Gosh, man, the lack of mean looks you've given me today just is restoring my faith in humanity. Thank you for that.
54:59 Speaker 05 Yeah, Kelly was getting a bit old. I had to take the keys away.
55:04 Dr. John Delony? She can only drive between the hours of 2 and 4pm. Alright, what's up?
55:10 Speaker 05 Alright, so Courtney says, "I am happily married and I'm all of a sudden extremely attracted to a man I go to church with. It's embarrassing. Is it normal to experience attraction like this while being married? Am I the problem?"
55:28 Dr. John Delony? Read that again. Read it slow.
55:31 Speaker 05 You're making me put in extra work today, alright.
55:33 Dr. John Delony? You read fast. Read it slow. I need to comprehend this.
55:35 Speaker 05 "I am happily married and I'm all of a sudden extremely..."
55:38 Dr. John Delony? Hold on, you sound like you're saying it. So this is a caller?
55:41 Speaker 05 Yes, Courtney.
55:42 Dr. John Delony? Okay, Courtney wrote in...
55:43 Speaker 05 "I am not extremely attracted to a man at church I go to church with."
55:46 Dr. John Delony? Well, you are. Well, I don't go to your church, that's why. Alright, so Courtney wrote in and she has an "am I the problem?" question.
55:55 Speaker 05 Correct.
55:55 Dr. John Delony? And she is asking... Okay, read it slowly for me?
55:58 Speaker 05 "I am happily married and I'm all of a sudden extremely attracted to a man I go to church with. It's embarrassing and is it normal to experience attraction like this while being married?"
56:09 Dr. John Delony? Yeah, you're gonna be attracted to other people. The word that she put in there is "extremely", and that's the one that gives me pause. Yes, you can be the happiest married person in the world and be like, "Gosh, that guy's awesome. She's beautiful. That guy's super handsome. That guy makes way more money than my husband." Like, that's normal. Normal, normal, normal. The "extremely" like tells me it's when you start imagining what life would be with that person. When you start keeping a scorecard in your back pocket of how this person is better than the person you're with. "This person understands me. This person's funny. This person makes more money. They drive a nicer car." And then that turns into, you know, contempt. "My husband doesn't work as much. He has a job, doesn't pay..." Like, that's when you get yourself into problems.
56:56 Dr. John Delony? But no, being attracted is just like, that's part of human nature. People are just good looking. People are just... There's just people you like being around. They're magnetic and it's awesome. It's great, wonderful. It's when you start fantasizing, and I don't mean just in the bedroom. It's when you start imagining what my life would be, not with my person, but with them. That's when the... You shoot the text. That's when you try to start wearing clothes to church or to work or whatever, so that they'll comment on them. That's when you... That's when you get yourself into trouble. And so, no, you're not the problem because you're attracted to somebody at church. That's called you're a human. It's what you do with that attraction, whether you acknowledge it and be like, "Yeah, dude's smoke show."
57:42 Dr. John Delony? And then you move on with your life, or if it begins to take up real estate in your head, or if it's an indicator of, "I actually am not attracted to the person I'm with, and we need to have that hard conversation." So, there you go. What do you think about that, Alex?
57:55 Speaker 05 Let you know when I'm married. In like, a few months.
58:00 Dr. John Delony? What a great answer. He dodged the question like the Matrix, bro. I know, dude, just... Yeah, you're in that about to be married. "There's only one for..." Good, Alex, good. Bye.
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