I’m in an Interracial Relationship and My Family Doesn’t Know

On today’s episode, we hear about: · A woman struggling to tell her parents she’s in an interracial relationship · A young man wondering if having only female friends is a problem · A wife unsure how to help her husband with PTSD Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at BON CHARGE. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi. 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne. 🏋️ Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 The EntreLeadership Podcast Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  How do I tell my very conservative parents that I am in an interracial relationship right now? For them, it's kind of like if you come from two different cultures, it's just not gonna work, you're not gonna get along, you'll end up in a divorce.

• 0:18Dr. John Delony?

  The fact that you even have to ask that question in 2025 makes my stomach churn. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you're with us. We're talking about your mental and emotional health and your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. Everybody I know is going through something. Sometimes it's really good stuff, sometimes it's just challenging stuff, and sometimes it's dark and really hard. And that's what we do on the show, man. I sit with hurting people who are trying to figure out what's the next right move for me, for my marriage, for my kids, for my, for my mental, emotional health, whatever you got going on. Here's my promise, I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move.

• 1:01Dr. John Delony?

  Give me a buzz, 1-844-693-3291, 2-1-844-693-3291, or go to johndeloney.com/askask. All right, let's go down the street here in Nashville, Tennessee and talk to Jess. What's up, Jess?

• 1:17Speaker 00

  Hi, how's it going?

• 1:19Dr. John Delony?

  I am rocking on to the break of dawn. How about you?

• 1:22Speaker 00

  I'm a bucket of sunshine.

• 1:24Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, we need that in Nashville. It is G-R-A-Y out here. It is great.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is very cold.

• 1:30Dr. John Delony?

  Bring some of your bucket of sunshine out here to the office, man. That's awesome. So what's up?

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Um, so I am calling to basically ask, um, how do I tell my very conservative parents that I am in an interracial relationship right now?

• 1:46Dr. John Delony?

  The fact that you even have to ask that question in 2025 makes my stomach churn.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54Dr. John Delony?

  Like, forget the conservative. I know some very, very conservative. In fact, one of my closest friends in the world is, is way more conservative than me in an interracial, like, long-term interracial. What does, what does politics have to do with this?

• 2:10Speaker 00

  I, I think they're just very traditional. That maybe that's a better word for it. They're just very conservative, traditional.

• 2:16Dr. John Delony?

  Even, even, I even know, super traditional, like, I don't even know if that's the right word. Cause I know some like, some crunchy, like, uh, make their own granola, like, I, I don't know. I'm just thinking of my friends in, in interracial marriage, like, I, um.

• 2:34Dr. John Delony?

  I, I guess the fact that you're calling and asking this, or you have apprehension about asking it, is that you know, your parents think, two people in a romantic relationship from different ethnic or cultural backgrounds is somehow wrong.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  It, it won't work out.

• 2:51Dr. John Delony?

  What does that mean?

• 2:54Speaker 00

  I think that for, for them, from my understanding, uh, for them, it's kind of like, well, if you're in two different backgrounds, marriage is hard enough. And so if you come from two different cultures, it's just not gonna work. You're not gonna get along. You'll end up in a divorce. The world's gonna crash and burn. We're all gonna die.

• 3:13Dr. John Delony?

  Well, that's just stupid. Not to, God, so stupid. Um, I, I, I, here's the thing. Like,

• 3:24Dr. John Delony?

  I, I guess my, I have two kind of paths for just what I would call, um, I'm trying to think of, of a nice way to say this. I have two paths forward in my personal life on how I deal with abject ignorance. Path one is I don't engage. Like when people, like they'll, they'll, uh, I, I posted something yesterday. It's, it's, it's the start of the new year when, when we're recording this. It won't come out, and I think till late January, maybe even February, but, um, I just remind people of the beginning of the year, like, you have to get a will. You gotta get a will, right? And 70 something percent of Americans don't have a will. And it, which with kids, it's madness, right? And the number of people who send me a direct message that are like, "You're crazy. You're

• 4:09Dr. John Delony?

  an idiot. They should be getting a trust." And it, it's like, okay, dude. I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna engage with that. That's like telling people who are 100 pounds overweight that they need to be doing cross, no, they don't. They need to go for a walk, right? So, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna even, I'm not gonna even address it. Because they're stepping over hundred dollar bills to pick up nickels, not gonna address it.

• 4:33Dr. John Delony?

  The second is, in your situation, you can't not address it.

• 4:38Dr. John Delony?

  And so, when I have to address something, when I have to address abject ignorance, my commitment to myself is not to lose my honor, my respect, and my dignity, not to cash in my character because of somebody else's ignorance. So, I am not gonna get in a mudslinging contest, I'm not gonna call names, I'm not even gonna give you a right to make me angry. The fact that you are saying things that are believing things that are so insanely ignorant,

• 5:11Dr. John Delony?

  you've already removed your vote from my vote box. You don't get a vote in my life. But, you're my mom and dad, and I do believe you honor your mom and dad. I do believe that. That doesn't mean you do whatever they say. That means that I'm gonna treat you with dignity and respect, even when I have to give you hard things that you disagree with.

• 5:29Dr. John Delony?

  And so, I would sit down and be direct and say, "I'm dating so-and-so, and he is fill-in-the-blank, when it comes to anything you think they're gonna object to."

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:42Dr. John Delony?

  And I believe in pulling the bullets out of the chamber, and so I would say, "I know this is gonna be hard for you, I know you might be embarrassed to tell your friends, this is who I'm dating, I've been dating him for a long time, and I love him, and I hope you guys will be supportive of this." And then that's the end of the conversation.

• 6:01Dr. John Delony?

  But I'm gonna tell them quietly, I'm gonna tell them calmly, and if they wanna fight, I'll put a hand up and say, "Hey, I'm not gonna have this fight with you. I'm not gonna have this fight with you." And, here's the other thing.

• 6:13Dr. John Delony?

  I'm ignorant about a number of things. I know I am. Had a conversation yesterday about something I believe deeply, and I was just like, they walked me through, and I was like, "Oh gosh, I'm really wrong on this." It was a science thing, I was just wrong. And so, I always want to lead with some sort of compassion for ignorant folks. Folks who are, I don't say ignorant folks as an identity, but like, folks who are ignorant on a topic or on a thing. I wanna be compassionate. Because often people will sit me down. I remember one time I took a job at a university in California and I ended up backing out of the job. It was a whole drama thing. I heard a lot of people. It was a bad deal on my part. But my dad, who's a lifetime Texan, I'm a grown man. I'm 35. I've got kid. I've got no, no, I didn't have any kids yet. But

• 6:56Dr. John Delony?

  my dad pulls me in his back room and starts walking me through the tax code in this area in California I was going to be living in.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 7:05Dr. John Delony?

  And I had my own, I ran a division at a university. I had a doctor. I mean, I wasn't a dumb guy and I wasn't a kid. I was a grown man. And I remember thinking to myself, he's trying to love me the best way he knows how. And in a sideways way, he's trying to tell me, I really don't want you to move that far away because we love having y'all close.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:27Dr. John Delony?

  And he did that through trying to tell me, you know, you shouldn't be living there. The tax codes, whatever. Like, I got, I get to pick, do I want to go to war with a guy who's trying to love me? And he opened his toolkit and didn't have the tool that I need at the moment, right? But he, he was doing the best he could. Or can I, with compassion, smile and say, this guy really loves me. He doesn't want me to leave. That's amazing. I wish that for every young son that his dad wants him around.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 7:53Dr. John Delony?

  So in this way, maybe your mom and dad are, would be embarrassed to tell their friends and shame on them. If they want to control your life, if they need your life to look a certain way so that they can still enter their social circles and feel however they want to feel, shame on them. And maybe they've read the wrong internet article over the last five years and they believe with all their heart, if my daughter goes down this path, her life's going to be really difficult and challenging and she doesn't see it yet. So we're going to try to love her the best we can.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  That's fair.

• 8:26Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying? So the wrong on both counts, right? And I'm just, I'm, I'm gonna. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna cash in my character over somebody else's challenges.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  What would you do, so they currently do not live within driving distance of me?

• 8:47Dr. John Delony?

  Uh huh.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Is this something that I should wait for like, a time when I can like fly out and talk to them in person?

• 8:53Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, you, you know your parents better than me.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Fair.

• 8:56Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know. I mean, I, I, I mean, I like having hard conversations in person. And I guess, I'm trying to think, like, I, I don't, um.

• 9:09Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know, this, that, I'm trusting you that this is this big of a deal in your house.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 9:16Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean?

• 9:17Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 9:19Dr. John Delony?

  Um.

• 9:21Dr. John Delony?

  I'm trying to think, like, if my daughter Josephine went to med school, and she met a professional jacks player, who plays jacks on the street, you know, like that, like the little ball?

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:34Dr. John Delony?

  And she'd been dating a surgeon, and they, she dumped, she was a, had a fiance who was gonna be a surgeon, they broke up. And she's like, Dad, I've fallen for a, a professional jacks player, he's a street hustler and I love him, I love him, right? Um.

• 9:49Dr. John Delony?

  That would be a big shift for me, and I would think instantly of, oh, this is not gonna go well, right?

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:55Dr. John Delony?

  And so, I think the conversation overall would go better if we were having that in person. And by the way, I also know, I can't do a thing about who she loves, I can't do a thing about who she loves, all I can do is, make it to where she doesn't wanna be around me, or she does. Right?

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:12Dr. John Delony?

  And so, um, but I think that conversation would go better in person, because I'd be able to see her on her body language, oh, she's really struggling with something right now, she's, she's, or, oh my gosh, she's in love.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:25Dr. John Delony?

  Right? She is stone in love, and I have a choice, I can support this thing, and I can be like, I wanna meet him, and he's gonna come over with me, and we're gonna, like, I'm gonna take him out to breakfast, whatever, or, I can choose to disconnect with my daughter, right? But, I would like that in person, but it's not always available these days, right?

• 10:45Dr. John Delony?

  So I think for you, how much of this is built up in your head? Or how much of this is gonna be like a big dramatic shock?

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Um, I, I don't think, well, it shouldn't be a huge shock. I've, I think that I've always kinda had a gut feel like, uh, that, you know, I, I mean, I'm not really particular on the race of the person that I date. But in the past, like, whenever we would like walk past an interracial couple, or we have a family member, we have a couple of family members who have been in interracial relationships and they, when they make their little snide comments, or they're like, see, that didn't work out, or I, you know, whatever it may be. Um, and I voiced my opinion of, I don't think that's why that went wrong, or I don't think it's that bad, or like, it doesn't bother me, why does it bother you?

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Like, they kind of give the, well, you just don't, you just don't know yet. You just don't have the experience yet.

• 11:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, I mean, I, I mean, it's just such an, like, an ignorant way to see the world, but here's the thing, like, um, they don't get a vote.

• 11:54Dr. John Delony?

  How old are you?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  I am 25.

• 11:57Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, yeah, they don't get a vote. And I think there's a hard grieving season when, if, if you imagine like a small, like a jewelry box sitting on your kitchen table, and in that box is four, or five, or six people that you quote unquote, "give a vote" to. They get to call you at the middle of the night and say, "What are you doing?" And you'll actually go change your behavior. Mine has about six, maybe seven people now that I'm older in it, okay? My kids aren't in that box. I love my mom and dad dearly, they're not in that box. I have the greatest in-laws on planet Earth, they're not in that box. My wife is, my buddy Todd is, my buddy John is, my buddy Kevin is, my buddy Jean Noel is, right? Like, they're, they're in that box, okay? And if they call me, which all those men I've mentioned have, uh, and say,

• 12:41Dr. John Delony?

  "Hey, you have to stop doing this," or "Why did you do this?" Or "Why'd you post this?" Or "Hey, I just got a call from your wife and she's worried about..." Like, I stop what I'm doing and listening. And there's something heartbreaking when you're 25 or 27 and realize people that you've cared about and trusted and loved are no longer in that decision-making tree for you. Uh, William Glasser calls it your quality world. They're not, pleasing them is no longer in your quality world, and it can feel disconcerting, it can feel unmooring.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:07Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:09Dr. John Delony?

  And so there's some grief like, oh my gosh, this is my parents. And by the way, this is gonna be very countercultural. I'm gonna get some mean comments about this. I also used to tell students all the time when they'd come in and tell me, I'm, I'm gay. I am struggling with X, or I'm struggling with Y, or I'm dropping out of college, or I'm, my parents have been obsessed with me being a physician and I'm gonna go into, I'm changing my major to painting, right, or whatever. I always told them, your parents get a minute. Give your parents the dignity of a minute. And I know it's cool to be like, they don't get a minute, they need to do, they get a minute. They get a minute, right? Like, like, they have a picture of the world and now that picture's gonna be different. I'm gonna be graceful and give it to them.

• 13:54Dr. John Delony?

  Cause what's, what's the, what's the option, right? We're gonna fight, I'm gonna go to war, I'm gonna cut you off. Um, we have a whole show coming up here in the next, uh, couple of weeks about, about that, about people just cutting their parents off just because of a bad first conversation, whatever. So, again, at the end of the day, don't cash in your character and your dignity. They've, they are clearly ignorant on this issue. I didn't even know this was still, like, I'm gonna be honest, I'm ignorant that this is still an issue, but that's, that's on me, that's completely on me. Um, and every mom and dad, when their little precious baby is born, they just have a snap picture of what that Thanksgiving table's gonna look like when they have grandkids.

• 14:34Dr. John Delony?

  And when they find out, we're not getting grandkids, or my son is not marrying an astronaut, and my daughter's not marrying a, like, whatever. Um, ah, they get a minute, fine. They get a minute. They don't get to be disrespectful, and they don't get to be rude, and they don't get to call me stupid. Um, but I'm gonna give them a minute, and I'm not gonna lose my character and dignity and respect, um, moving forward.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  I can appreciate that.

• 15:01Dr. John Delony?

  You know your mom and dad better. So if you think a phone call or a FaceTime is good, if you think a letter is better, um, if you think a personal visit to fly out there is better, great.

• 15:15Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean? I think that's awesome.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:18Dr. John Delony?

  I do.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Okay, and I should probably have it without my significant other there? Or should I bring him along?

• 15:24Dr. John Delony?

  No, I would.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:25Dr. John Delony?

  Because it feels like a move. If you know it's going to cause a thing, it feels like a move. And I'm not... Here's, here's... Suddenly, he becomes a tool you're using to get your mom and dad, and that's not right. He doesn't deserve to be used like that.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Right, right, okay.

• 15:42Dr. John Delony?

  And he doesn't deserve to feel the, the, the radio blast of

• 15:49Dr. John Delony?

  their ignorance if they choose to detonate it, right?

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Right, that's true.

• 15:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Thank you so much for the call. Again, I'm, I'm... I shouldn't be, I'm kind of speechless. I didn't know this was... I didn't know that... Well, whatever is what it is. Um, yeah, that's my two things for, for dealing with just abject ignorance. I don't engage it. I don't engage it. Um, or, um, I commit to not losing my integrity in the process. And, um, I keep very close tabs on who gets, who has a vote in my life. And sometimes people opt out, and it breaks my heart, it makes me sad, and I grieve it. And then I go find meaning in it and move on. So thanks for the call, Jess. I hope it all goes well. Let me know how the conversation goes. Um, I will say this. If you ever have to have a hard conversation with your mom and dad,

• 16:39Dr. John Delony?

  often writing it out ahead of time is very helpful because it keeps it from getting overly emotional real quick, and it keeps you from instantly going back into some of your childhood roles instantly. So, um, maybe take the time to write it out and, um, let me know how the conversation goes. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back.

• 16:57Dr. John Delony?

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• 17:42Dr. John Delony?

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• 18:27Dr. John Delony?

  That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash deloney.

• 18:33Dr. John Delony?

  All right, good folks, Lent is just a few weeks away. And if you haven't heard of Lent, it's a practice that goes back centuries. And it's when Christians all over the world would get ready for Good Friday and Easter through different kinds of prayer, meditation, and fasting. Lent is about getting rid of all of those things or habits in your life that get in the way of knowing God and of ultimately living a full, joyful life. So whether you grew up in the Christian tradition and you want to experience Lent in a new way, or you think the whole thing sounds kind of nuts and you want to learn more, check out Hallow's Lent. Lent Pray Forty Challenge. The Lent Pray Forty Challenge walks you through great stories and guided prayers. Last year, more than a million people around the world prayed with Hallow every day during Lent,

• 19:17Dr. John Delony?

  and this year will be even bigger and better. Right now, you can get three months of Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world, for free when you sign up at hallow.com/deloney. And this means your free trial will last all the way through Lent. And when you join Hallow, you can check out over 10,000 of their guided prayers and meditations. So, download the app and sign up at hallow.com/deloney to get notified when the Lent Pray Forty Challenge starts. That's Hallow, H-A-L-L-O-W, dot com slash deloney for three months of Hallow absolutely free. Let's go out to the 512, let's go out to Austin, Texas, and talk to Andrew. What's up, Andrew? How we doing, man?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Hey, Dr. John. Thank you so much for taking time to take my call. Really appreciate it and a big fan of the show.

• 20:03Dr. John Delony?

  You got it, my man. What's up, man?

• 20:06Speaker 02

  So, I wanted to ask you, um, what is your thought on like a grown adult man in his mid, late twenties, having only female friends and having no guy friends?

• 20:20Dr. John Delony?

  Well, tell me more about that. Or, or, or, let me ask you this. Why does that concern you? Or where does that concern come from?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Well, it's starting to, other people are beginning to think that it's odd, from family members to other acquaintances, to other people in their, in my female friends' lives that think it's odd and weird and...

• 20:47Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, like their boyfriends or husbands?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Well, ju- well, just people in general, they think that someone, a guy in his mid, late twenties who's heterosexual, having only female friends and no guy friends is odd.

• 21:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So, for a second, I don't care what they think.

• 21:06Dr. John Delony?

  What do you think?

• 21:09Speaker 02

  I'm not sure because I've given a lot of thought into it and I perceive it only as just friends. Um, however, of course, everyone's gonna have different opinions on what a man should be, cuz it's getting to the point where...

• 21:25Dr. John Delony?

  Andrew, let me back out. What do you think?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  I think it's perfectly fine.

• 21:32Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Just pause right there.

• 21:36Dr. John Delony?

  Just sit with that. My next question would be, do you want guy friends?

• 21:43Dr. John Delony?

  Have you always craved guy friends? What, what makes female friendship safer than male friendship?

• 21:52Speaker 02

  I think what I've learned is just like through my experience, like I've just clicked with females. Like I've tried to connect with guy friends. Like, I'll, I'll give you a little backstory, if you don't mind.

• 22:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  So I graduated high school. Um, didn't know what I wanted to do right after high school. So I went into plumbing. Um, I was doing my apprenticeship and I got really dirty with the job and I realized this isn't what I want to do for forty, fifty years with my life. So at the age of twenty, I enrolled in community college, you know, um. I started college a little late because some people are graduated high school already in college for two, three years. So while I was there, I met these two girls there. We had classes together. We started off, you know, casual, just studying together. There were some other guys I met too, but like we didn't, I didn't click with them. Like there was no like spark like as it was more like an acquaintanceship.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Like I would ask for their Snapchat and social media. They would give it to me, but I would message them and they wouldn't want to hang out. However, with these girls, I would message them and they would be down to hang out. So they, um.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Would be down to hang out with me and then we would go out to eat. We would study together and we would go look at different things together or go to the store. And so.

• 23:15Dr. John Delony?

  So you had, you have shared interest with them. It like, if you're being fully honest, some of these women that are your friends. If y'all were shopping together or doing whatever y'all do together and one of them turned and grabbed you by the face and kissed you and said, I've wanted to do that for a long time. Would that be amazing? Or would you feel like that's a gross violation of your friendship?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  I honestly wouldn't know because I feel like that's just unexpected because I approached it kind of as friendship and so did they.

• 23:44Dr. John Delony?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  And I will say though, one of the girls at the time had a boyfriend. And um, from what I understood at the time, that boyfriend didn't really like me.

• 23:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but I mean, that's to be understood too, right? Like, like, I, I don't know, if my, if my girlfriend in college was always leaving me to go hang out with another heterosexual guy, I would always assume that that guy's like got some spark for her, right? Whether it's, it doesn't have to be sexual or romantic, but even if it's intellectual and spiritual and like, I, I would be jealous, especially as a young kid, as a college kid, like, I want to have, I want, I want to be her everything, right? So that's, that's to be understood, I get that. Um, and so I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hate on the guy for being like, hey, why do you keep leaving me to go hang out with this other dude? Um, that's a, that's a fair question, I think.

• 24:38Dr. John Delony?

  I think, I think the bigger thing is, but you, the way you've described your life, it, it seems to be that you're always looking at your life through other people's eyes to see how it reflects. And what I don't-

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Well, not necessarily, because it, this, okay. So, this actually, I guess I'll just continue with my story. So after community college, I went to a four-year university. I didn't graduate because till 25, because obviously I started college late. But while I was in college, I met more girls there and we just clicked, like, we, we, I met them in class and we just-

• 25:16Dr. John Delony?

  What does click mean? That sounds like, like when some dude's like, no, I just met her and I just knew. It's like, nah, no you didn't. You just did a bunch of things towards it. When you say clicked, what does that mean?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  I guess, in a way, like, it meant like, we-

• 25:30Speaker 02

  We just found a connection of friendship like we.

• 25:33Dr. John Delony?

  What does that mean? Like y'all like to say music, y'all respond to each other's texts in a timely fashion.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  All those things like we had similar interests in what we studied. We had like the music, like the same foods. Um, the same music. We like to go out to the, to the college bars and stuff like that. And I tried to do that with guys. Here's the thing, and I would ask for them for their social media and their Snapchats and all that stuff. And I was like, hey, we should hang out, you know, maybe go to the college bars and watch the game. And with the guy acquaintances I met in class, I was like, yeah, I'll see you. Let me see if I'm off. But with the girls, it would be like, yeah, I'm down. And sure enough, they would text me, hey, when are you coming to get us and all this? And we would go to parties, we would go to football games, the tailgates, we'd go to the college bars.

• 26:23Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about your romantic interests. Are you dating anybody?

• 26:28Speaker 02

  I'm not dating anyone. And here's the thing though, I'm also, I'm not a gay guy because I know a lot of, a lot of people think that, oh, if a guy has a bunch of girlfriends, he's gay.

• 26:39Dr. John Delony?

  Well, there's that, there's that, there's that stereotype, right? Like the gay friend. But yeah, I mean, I mean, uh, you, you gotta be pretty simple minded just to dump into that, right? Um, so in, in that's in just assume everything's a stereotype, but like, you're not, are you interested in dating? Is that just not a, a priority for you?

• 26:55Speaker 02

  I am actually, like it's something I've been thinking about. I mean, cause I'm getting older and after college, um, well, during college, I was working a part-time job just at some places and at those part-time jobs, I would, you know, just talk to people. I'm very social. And of course, when I would talk to people, I would mainly,

• 27:20Speaker 02

  I guess, I know you were wondering what the word click means, but I would just in a way, catch the attention of girls and I would just have that connection with girls of friendship. Like we would like the same things. We talked about the same things. We would go out. Um, same music and stuff and I would do that with guys. But again, it was more like an acquaintance. It was like, yeah, maybe we can hang out sometime, bro. Yeah. So let me get your Snapchat or your Instagram or your social media, but nothing would come about it.

• 27:48Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  And I would message them and then I would do the same thing for the girls and they would be so down.

• 27:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  And so.

• 27:54Dr. John Delony?

  Well, let me say it like this. Let me say it like this. Let me interrupt you a little quick.

• 27:58Dr. John Delony?

  I think the question you have to ask yourself is twofold. Number one, are the people telling you you're weird for having, um, the vast majority, or all of your close personal friendships being women? Do you care what they think? That's number one. And I can't answer that for you. You have to ask that question. Number two, are you desiring male friendships and you're frustrated or kind of grieving the fact that you're only seemingly able to click, to use your words, with women? Because if you're like, "Man, I don't care, boy or girl, man or woman, I don't care. I just want to hang out and have a great time with people. And I want to be there to support my friends when they have needs and to celebrate them

• 28:41Dr. John Delony?

  when they win," and vice versa, and I don't care if they're male or female, then it doesn't matter what other people think. Who cares? If you're asking a deeper question, which is, "Why don't I ever get this quote-unquote 'click' with men? Because I want some dude friends. I want some guys to share romantic, like, how's your life? And what's it gonna be like if I ever become a dad? And what's it like on the job market?" Like, if that's the challenge you're struggling with, then the simple, yet really challenging answer is, the word "click" probably means comfortable and/or easy. And I think the assumption is, if something doesn't quote-unquote "click," if it doesn't

• 29:23Dr. John Delony?

  come really naturally and really quickly, then somehow it's not right. And so if you desire friendships with dudes, then you've got a sample set of data that tells you, guys don't just respond to some strange dude being like, "Dude, give me your number." That happens to me on a plane every once in a while. Like, somebody, some influencer will run into me on a plane, be like, "Dude, give me your number." And then I'll get a text message, a random text message, like, "Hey dude, come to my house, we're working out this morning." I've never gone. Not one time. Zero times.

• 29:58Dr. John Delony?

  But if somebody reaches out and meets somebody on a plane, they're like, "Hey dude, I'm writing a book, I'd love for you to read it," or, "Hey, I'd love to check in with you and grab coffee because I want to talk about something," well, that's something I like to do. I like to get to know somebody before I just show up to your house and start lifting weights with you, right? And so, just because I don't connect on that initial thing, I just got a data point. Dude, I'm not just gonna go to your house and randomly sit in your sauna if I don't know you. That's not gonna be how I want to meet people, right? And so, I think you have a data set that says, "All right, I'm asking for Snapchat, I'm asking for Instagram," they give it to me, they never respond to me. If you want to pursue hanging out with dudes, man, then you have to do something different, something that feels not like it clicks. Do the hard, the next hard thing, right? But if you don't

• 30:43Dr. John Delony?

  care, then man, I think you're reaching that age. How old did you say you were, 27, 28?

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Oh, 27, yeah.

• 30:49Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. You're reaching that age when, more so than when you're younger. It's easier to just move from group to group to group when you're younger. When you get older, you realize, oh, there's limited people in our sphere, people we work with, or people we were in school with, and suddenly, people's values and their lifestyle behavior choices begin to change. And they have kids, and they don't have time to go out, or they have boyfriends or girlfriends that take up more of their time, and it should, right? It's a romantic interest, we're building a life together. So, you're in a, you're in a season when life, those relationships just change naturally. When those really great college relationships begin to thin out a little bit, and you realize, oh, we were really

• 31:31Dr. John Delony?

  good friends for a season, and you grieve it, and it's a bum, it's a bum deal. And so, you're gonna have some of those friends that just naturally, their boyfriends don't like them hanging out with other dude, and, or maybe they don't want to hang out as much anymore, but they use their boyfriend as an excuse. All those things are playing, play into this here. You're just at a natural inflection point at 27. So, I think you need to ask yourself, "What am I comfortable with, dude? I'm the one that has to look me in the eye every morning in the mirror. I don't care what other people say. These are my friends, these are my friends, these are my friends," and then go from there. How does that sit with you?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Well, I'm actually don't mind it, to be honest.

• 32:08Dr. John Delony?

  Then who cares? Who cares? They don't get a vote, dude. They don't get a vote. You know what I'm saying?

• 32:14Speaker 02

  The thing is also is, um, over the last two years, I've noticed some things have come up. Um, I guess that's in a way why I'm calling is because, so here's an example. So, obviously, I graduated college late. So, last year, we went to go visit one of my friends. We met in college, where she's now in grad school. She's in California. And then me and one of my friend girls went to go visit her, and we did a road trip. And on the way back, we stayed in Mexico at one of my family relatives' house. And we're just, you know, introduced them, my friends, to my, uh, aunts and uncles and all that.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  And then we're just having dinner, and then my aunt kinda asked, the elephant in the room was, and was like, so how long have y'all been two, been together? And now, and then we and her kinda laughed, like, oh, we're not together, we're just friends. And my aunt had the most confused look on her face. Like, you're a grown man.

• 33:21Dr. John Delony?

  Let her have it. Let her have that confusion. Like, her confusion is natural, and I'm glad that she felt comfortable enough to look confused in front of you. And, yes, it is not inside the bell curve. It's not of, it's not normal. I would, I would say normal, that's, that's a bad way to say it. It's not common for 26, 25, 27-year-old dudes to take trips with plutonic girlfriends across the country to go visit other plutonic girlfriends. I just, I, I don't hear about that happening very often, is what I would say.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 33:56Dr. John Delony?

  Especially with not some ulterior romantic interest. Right? And so, if your aunt, who's 50, 60, 70, goes, what? Let her, let her have it. You know what I mean? It, it's you that gets to decide whether that judgment, or that curiosity she has, or that confusion is somehow an indictment, or it's just straight-up confusion. Huh, never seen that before.

• 34:22Dr. John Delony?

  Right, like it's like when my grandmother asked me about like why I had so many earrings. Well, when I was 18, I don't know, I was just punching holes in my head to try to be cool like, but I could just look at my grandmother and be like, she's never seen this, she doesn't know. Or I could be like, she doesn't love, like dude, and so I chose to give her the benefit of the doubt. And my dad said, you should take those off before you go see her again. And I did, right? So it's like I get to hold on to that contempt or to that question. Or, yeah, it's a natural question. Somebody's gonna ask, that's fine, that's fair. You get what I'm saying?

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like, um, more recently in the last couple of months, my parents kind of brought me aside and were asking me, so like, how's your dating life going? Like, who are all these young women you're hanging out with? Like, y'all are going on trips to the beach? Y'all are going on, going out dancing? Like, I will say though, one of our favorite things to do, because now that I'm graduated, we still have friends that are graduated as well. And also met some people from work and I've introduced them to the different girls I met in college. And they've, they've become friends because of me.

• 35:30Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  And one of our favorite things to do, honestly, is to go out to the downtown Austin, go to the clubs, the bars, take many road trips. And we do like to go dancing. And

• 35:46Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna lie, sometimes this dancing involves slow dancing and being on all, grinding on each other and stuff like that when you listen to hip hop songs and all that and, and.

• 35:56Dr. John Delony?

  I'm not great at grinding. Never really been a grinder. I'm not good.

• 36:02Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, but, but like, are you interested in these people?

• 36:04Speaker 02

  And then, and then, and then my, my family, they're just like saying, we're seeing you post these girls on social media, we're seeing you go on trips with them. So like, is, are these like girlfriends or are any of them dating or is this like?

• 36:19Dr. John Delony?

  I know, I know, dude, but, but that's a.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  And then, uh, my dad, he was like, I feel like you need some guy friends. That way you could learn how to be a guy because like, I mean, it's true though. Like, I don't have guy friends where, hey, we're gonna go fishing and get some beer and talk about trucks and football and stuff like that. Like, I don't have that.

• 36:40Dr. John Delony?

  Do you want that?

• 36:42Speaker 02

  In a way I do.

• 36:43Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, then go get that. Go get that. And by the way, that's, that's as stereotypical of guys just get together and talk about trucks and talk about beer. You know what I mean? Like, me and Ben went and got tacos one time and we went to a concert together. Like, it's you painting a picture of what you think the other side's gonna be. It is perfectly reasonable, a thousand percent reasonable, for you to go to a club where you are grinding up on your friends, who happen to be attractive females, or unattractive females, I don't care, and you slow dancing with them and you choosing to make that interaction public by posting it on the world wide web.

• 37:24Dr. John Delony?

  It's perfectly acceptable, reasonable, for your parents to go, "Dude, tell me about these girls that you're dating." Because that looks like a date. And then you can choose, "How dare you ask if I'm dating, they're my friends." Or you can go, "Yeah, it looks like, they're just my friends, we're just being silly." But, but, like, that's a hundred percent reasonable for somebody to assume that. If you're going with the same people, dancing, grinding up all them people, that there's some sort of romantic thing going on. That's not a weird, I don't see that as weird at all. And if you want some guys to learn, like, okay, what does masculinity feel like? What is, what's going on in the minds of a group of guys? Then you're gonna have to choose to get past this click idea and,

• 38:08Dr. John Delony?

  quote unquote, "Go be uncomfortable." If you wanna talk about trucks, find some people to talk about trucks. You know, if you wanna talk about, like, if I had a Jeep question, I would call my friend John Falcons, or I would call my friend Cassidy McGugan, who's got this big dope Jeep, right? Like, and she's a woman and John is a man, like, it doesn't... I guess, I feel like you're drawing as artificial boundaries as you're frustrated that other people are drawing. So if you wanna go make friends with dudes, um, you've learned some things that don't work. Just asking for a dude's Snapchat, they're not gonna write you back. Going up to a guy and saying, "Hey, come over to my house tomorrow. We're doing some things." "I wanna go play music," or "I got an extra ticket to a concert," or whatever. That could work. That could be the thing.

• 38:50Dr. John Delony?

  But I think it's you stopping, like, people are gonna ask questions. Let them ask questions. Go on about your life. I'm not gonna carry that burden with me. And if people ask accusational questions, like, "They accuse me. They're angry. They're mean to me." That's their deal, dude. I'm not gonna carry your weirdness there. I think this culture of outrage, like, "How dare you ask a question?" Like, ask the questions, man. Like, it's my life. I'm not afraid to answer the questions. And if I get mad at people for asking questions, then so be it. But I think it comes down to you looking yourself in the mirror. And if you like the life you're living, great. If it's on a trajectory that you wanna change, then you're gonna have to do some uncomfortable things because you've been doing the comfortable thing. And I wish it was more complex than that, but it's not. It will be uncomfortable, and it won't feel great all of the time.

• 39:36Dr. John Delony?

  But yeah, get some guys together and say, "I wanna learn how to fish. Will some of y'all take me fishing?" I took a guy hunting the other day. A military veteran who's gone away more adventures than me. He'd never been to a hunt. So I said, "I got you. Let's go." And we took him, and it was a blast. And he taught me things. I taught him things. It was great. But like, it started with, "Hey, I need to learn how to fish. I don't know how to work on a truck. Will you teach me how to do that?" And go from there, man. But again, you decide what kind of friendships you want, what do you want in life, what you're leaning towards. And man, go that direction. And if people don't wanna go with you, so be it. So be it. Thanks for the call, brother. We'll be right back.

• 40:15Dr. John Delony?

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• 41:00Dr. John Delony?

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• 41:33Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go to Washington DC and talk to Beth. Hey Beth, what's up?

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Yes, hi, thank you. I'm calling because I'm wanting help or suggestions for what I can do to help my husband who has experienced severe trauma and he's refusing any kind of help or medication.

• 41:52Dr. John Delony?

  Oh man, tell me about it.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  So, he grew up in a country that at the time was under the control of a radical terrorist organization.

• 42:04Dr. John Delony?

  Oh man.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  And because of that, he has PTSD. He definitely has some OCD traits.

• 42:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, of course.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  From the PTSD and he's dealing with depression. And logically, medication or therapy would help, but because of his survivor's guilt and also because where he grew up, they had like a morality police that required that you report on anyone for anything. And kind of because of that, no one was ever comfortable telling any information about themselves to anyone. So it forced everyone to become like islands, to be completely isolated. And...

• 42:52Speaker 03

  He, it's just like this block, you know, logically, he knows that if he goes and talks to a doctor, he's not, he's not going to be sent to jail, but.

• 43:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but that story's in his nervous system, man.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's not, that's not a, that's not a, I mean, cause, cause let's, for the, for the average listener, um, my experience is just sitting down and talking with some of these survivors is they've seen madhouse violence and/or been required to participate. They'd experienced sexual abuse of unimaginable depravity.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Right, and he himself, oh, I'm so sorry.

• 43:31Dr. John Delony?

  No, go ahead, go ahead.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Interrupting. He himself had survived multiple kidnapping attempts because where, where he lived, they particularly wanted young boys and, um, he survived multiple kidnapping attempts himself, and so he does have the severe trauma.

• 43:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  And one of the things that I have found to be helpful, one of the only things actually that I found to be helpful is, um, some advice that you've given on how to help a partner who has survived, um, severe sexual trauma. And, you know, it's, it's hard because there's a certain reality, a certain framework that I need to work in. I know no matter what, he will not go and get help. I can, I can shout it all day, but it's not going to happen. And it's hard because it's not coming from a place of, he's just being difficult.

• 44:22Dr. John Delony?

  No, it's survival.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  It's coming from panic.

• 44:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but can you go get help?

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Oh, I do.

• 44:30Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 44:30Speaker 03

  I go to therapy, I go get medications. I, I really try to work on myself because I have my own traumas and issues and, and I think that's one of the reasons why, um, we work well together is because I understand, I have a slight, slight insight into some of these things.

• 44:53Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. I bet your insight is, is less slight than you, I think you're being very compassionate for the hell that he endured and lived through, okay?

• 45:05Dr. John Delony?

  He, he, here's, here's what I've found to be helpful, okay? And, um, I don't know if he ever would, but I would love to talk to him. And if he doesn't want to talk to me on the show, I'll even be willing to set up something off, off, offline. Okay, I don't know if he's a fan of the show or anything, or if he's ever listened to this show, but if not, no big deal. So here's a couple of just big rocks, okay? The three words, "I believe you," combined with physical touch is a very powerful self. Okay?

• 45:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:42Dr. John Delony?

  So when somebody's spinning out, when somebody's frustrated, when somebody's angst, when somebody's having a panic attack, when somebody's anxious, when somebody's like, "I don't wanna..." Just simply putting your hand on their arm, holding, skin on skin, is what you think, SOS, skin on skin, and the words, "I believe you." I don't know how or why, but it tends to make the human body go, "Phew," okay? The second one, and this is, um, most people don't think about this. The second one is deep and powerful and very strong boundaries with somebody who has experienced abuse.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:23Dr. John Delony?

  What I mean by that is, you've experienced unimaginable abuse. You've seen things that no person should ever see, much less a child, or experience. And you don't get to be abusive in this house. You don't get to scream, you don't get to hit things, you don't get to punch holes in the wall, you don't get to just disappear for five days. You don't get to do that, because you looked at me and said, "I do." And what I've found over the years, it's not 100%, but what I've found is, what somebody who struggles with childhood trauma like this, those type of boundaries are unfathomably, uh, life-giving, because finally they get to anchor into something.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  Right, and I think for him, it's almost the opposite, and this sounds horrible to say, but I think in some ways, it would be easier if he did scream, or punched the wall, or do something, because-

• 47:21Dr. John Delony?

  He holds it all.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  It's like the exact opposite, because where he was, if you showed any emotion, it could lead to problems.

• 47:30Dr. John Delony?

  So what behavior, what's prompting this call?

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Well.

• 47:35Dr. John Delony?

  Because, because not, because here's the thing, there's, there's, there's kind of this, um, and I'm glad it's finally getting some press and some attention right now, but not everybody grieves in the same way.

• 47:47Dr. John Delony?

  And it might be that you're doing all this work and you're doing talk therapy and you're taking medication and you're feeling great and you're, the light has come on and you see him and you think, man, his light's on and he's being a present husband and he's showing up and it's pretty amazing that, given the journey he's made, but I think the light could be even brighter. So you need to talk more and you need to go like, so is there some behaviors, some pathologies that you're seeing that you are scared of or see him hurting himself, like, or it's bringing electricity into your home? Like, what are you concerned about?

• 48:20Speaker 03

  Well, there was, he had a very hard time, um, he's thirty-three.

• 48:26Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  And he has a very hard time relating to people his age here in the US. And, you know, that's not that he's not friendly, but it's just that he doesn't, he, he can't relate. There's no point of commonality, so.

• 48:41Dr. John Delony?

  Well, yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  All of his. Right. So all of his friends, actually, it's kind of funny, all of his friends are like the, um, older veterans who work at Walmart, you know, he goes every morning and he, he talks to all the older, uh, war veterans, because they've seen a lot of the same things, um, but kind of what really facilitated this call was, you know, he's very good friends with like all the old ladies in the neighborhood, it's adorable, and, um, he was very good friends, I'm, I'm really, I'm sorry.

• 49:11Dr. John Delony?

  No, you're good.

• 49:11Speaker 03

  He's very good friends with the woman across the street and, um, he so very rarely makes a human connection, like outside of me, I think it's really important that he has friends outside of me.

• 49:24Dr. John Delony?

  There you go.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  You know, has a support structure. Um, he was very good friends with our neighbor across the street and she took her, her life.

• 49:32Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, man.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  And his reaction absolutely broke my heart, because he walked in and he, you know, he was like, Beth, you know, so, so killed herself. I wish she didn't do that, I wish she had called me.

• 49:49Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  And it was just totally a flat asset.

• 49:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Completely flat.

• 49:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Um, and I just.

• 50:02Speaker 03

  I love him so much and my heart breaks because he has this well of sadness that I cannot touch and I just, I want him to have this joy and he just has, he has this mindset and I understand why, this mindset of just like nihilistic.

• 50:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I mean, he's seen it, he's seen, I mean, it's, I've heard this over and over and over and over again from, um, like, it's just hard to hang out with a 27-year-old US person sometimes when you've grown up in madness. When they're just like, "Oh, my gosh, can you believe that Trader Joe's is not?" And you're like, "Dude, right this second, overseas, there's a little boy hiding because some guys are trying to kidnap him too." Right, or, I mean, like, it's, it's, it's hard to even, it doesn't surprise me at all that he's made connections with folks with way more wisdom who have been overseas, who have seen what could, the, the, the human condition can do.

• 51:04Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and it doesn't surprise me that his body took over to take care of him.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:11Dr. John Delony?

  Like, that affect, that just, that, that is just a body that goes inside of itself, right? Or it's a spirit locking itself inside a skin, because it has to. But that's where that, the thing that draws somebody out of that is, and you're, you are right on, is connectivity. And that's the, the words, "I believe you," and skin-to-skin contact.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:34Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And it, it's a process and it takes a long time. I don't know that he'll ever not, his body won't, will never not have that as a default setting.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:47Dr. John Delony?

  It was too important. I have a hypothesis that has zero, no evidence to it, except that I ask every single, um, long-term veteran that I meet, all of them, I ask them the same question and I've never had somebody tell me no. I wonder if, because I know that, the, the data on the human body's ability to metabolize trauma, it's astonishing, what people will go, can go through and will go through, and the lives it can lead on the back end.

• 52:18Dr. John Delony?

  Especially when you look at like at uh at uh like Nazi camp survivors and how they went and they just like only few remaining people from different families created new like communities together because they had to, right?

• 52:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:35Dr. John Delony?

  People can overcome, but they have to have other people. And I have to wonder if the mad spike in PTSD comes from somebody who sees things that nobody should see, experiences things, but they also do it in a context with a family. Because if you're surviving kidnapping, that means you have family members that are with you, right?

• 52:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:58Dr. John Delony?

  They did this thing together and veterans do that. They have, they train together and they've got a group of men and women that will lay down and die for them. And then they get out of the service, they get unhooked, or as your, like, your husband leaves, comes to the States, marries an amazing woman who loves him more than life itself.

• 53:15Dr. John Delony?

  And you get that survivor's guilt, you get that unplugged feeling. It's hard to have a friend, you, you've got a friend that will die for you and that helps hide you when there's guys trying to kidnap you, and then your neighbor's like, man, did you see the prices at Whole Foods? Like, it's hard to ever reconnect.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Right. And, and right now, unfortunately, his, his parents are in a place that is better than it was, but, you know, we're worried, you know, about them getting bombed.

• 53:41Dr. John Delony?

  Of course, of course.

• 53:43Speaker 03

  And, but I, I do kind of think, and, and you're like, I don't even know if this is silly, but like, part of me thinks like, if I could force him to like, join a bowling league or something, like something where like, we were forced to interact with like a group of people who maybe are in a slightly older age demographic, like, to, like you're saying, like to form some kind of community.

• 54:06Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Because unfortunately-

• 54:08Dr. John Delony?

  I, I want to switch it. I don't want to do any forcing, I think he's been forced enough. But I do want to invite-

• 54:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 54:17Dr. John Delony?

  And so, like, very few husbands, there are some scumbags out there, but very few husbands, if their wife holds their hand and says, "This really matters to me, I want to join this particular thing, it would make me feel loved, and it would make me feel safe if you came with me every Wednesday night to go bowling." What?

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:39Dr. John Delony?

  "I know you don't like to talk to people, I know, this is not for you, it's not for them, this is for me, would you do this for me?"

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:46Dr. John Delony?

  And that's an invitation.

• 54:50Dr. John Delony?

  When this comes out, I'll already be a month in, I'm starting ballroom or whatever dance lessons this month, right? And it's because my wife has said, "I want to do things with you, I've always wanted to dance." Dude, I can't, I can't dance to save my life, I don't want to dance in front of other people, I have a public-facing job, so it's gonna be even more embarrassing, I'm clumsy, like, all those things, it's not about me, it's not about them, it's about, when I told my wife, "Hey, I got you dance lessons for Christmas," I, I could, her smile lit up the sun, right? And so, I don't want to force him, "You have to do this or else, because then you become one of them."

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:31Dr. John Delony?

  And he doesn't need that, he needs you to be with him, but you inviting him, "I need you to be with me on this one." And it might not be bowling, but it might be, "We have to do something together outside of this house with other people, I'll let you speak into it, but I want to invite you to be a part of it." And you have to be prepared for, he might tell you no.

• 55:52Dr. John Delony?

  And then the, the boundary is, you're gonna go anyway.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:57Dr. John Delony?

  "I'm gonna go anyway."

• 56:00Speaker 03

  Without him, if he said no?

• 56:02Dr. John Delony?

  Absolutely.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:04Dr. John Delony?

  Because what we're gonna do now is, we're gonna model what peace looks like.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:10Dr. John Delony?

  We're gonna model it, because here's what he needs to feel, he doesn't need to come home to his house and feel like he's not grieving right.

• 56:19Dr. John Delony?

  And often, loving partners, myself included, tell our partners, "Well, you need to be grieving like this, you need to go see a counselor, you need to go do this, you need to go take medication, you need to go start an exercise program." And what it ends up doing is, I've got pain, and I'm not even doing my pain right.

• 56:35Dr. John Delony?

  And so, instead of, it's the curiosity over judgment. Instead of saying like, "You need to be doing this, this, and this." It is, "Would you do this with me?"

• 56:45Dr. John Delony?

  And what we want him to feel is your nervous system ticked down about 50 beats, and there's no beats in a nervous system, I just made that up. But, it's when he feels, "Ooh," with you,

• 56:58Dr. John Delony?

  that then, he's like, "I want that, I want more." His body will naturally want more of that.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  Right. That makes a lot of sense, I never thought of that, because, you're right, you know, a big thing for him is, he doesn't want to be micromanaged anymore, because, you know, he lived under a regime where like, they told you you couldn't wear shorts, you know?

• 57:25Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, that's right. He's done with that. As he should be. But, going back to the boundaries thing, that doesn't mean he didn't look a woman in the eye and say, "I do till death do us part." And you get to say, "Hey, as a part of loving me, here's what I need, and here's what I want."

• 57:41Dr. John Delony?

  So he doesn't get to be responsibility-free. And that's where those boundaries are really important, for people who have suffered unimaginable abuse. It's such a rudderless... The thing that trauma, especially sexual trauma and violent trauma does, is it cuts the oxygen. The thing that keeps a human being alive is other people. And violence, abject violence, especially when you're a child, and sexual violence, it makes the person, another person, electric. It makes him like an electric fence, it makes them poison. And the problem is, we have to have other people to survive.

• 58:19Dr. John Delony?

  And so, a boundary, in a strange way, creates safety. It creates a bridge back to a person. Because right now, he's rudderless. I mean, he's clipped. He's a balloon, that somebody cut the string, and he's just floating out in space.

• 58:41Speaker 03

  Right, because I think what's hard is he just doesn't know what to do.

• 58:46Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, that's right. And so, but what he did agree to is loving you.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 58:51Dr. John Delony?

  And so, we're not going to preach at him, we're just going to invite him to walk with you. And you have to be able to breathe through the days, he says, "I can't go today." "Cool, I'm gonna go." Because he might go two days or three days, and then the old nervous system kicks up because he hasn't slept well, because work is stressful, because he had a whole bunch of pizza when, ah, who knows? But for some reason, the, the, the switch is flipped on, it's not a good week. Cool, I'm not gonna judge you. But when I get back, I'm gonna tell you how much fun we had, and I hope you'll come next time.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:26Dr. John Delony?

  My wife did this for me with, for years with church. I just got to a place where I had a lot of baggage with church and I didn't go.

• 59:34Dr. John Delony?

  And I never felt a sense of, "You're less than," or "You're a terrible person." I did feel guilt because she got up and went all the time. And eventually, I started going, not with a good spirit or a good heart about it, but I didn't want to be the guy whose wife went to church by herself. And then I started going.

• 59:54Dr. John Delony?

  And then I went with my walls up, but I kept going. And then I went with, as the walls started coming down a little bit, and then an awesome minister asked me to help with a thing, which he'd teach a class, and then all of a sudden, like, you, you get what I'm saying? So, I, I think that the behavior is the language, it's the action. "Will you love me this way? Will you come to the bowling league with me?" Right? Or, I'm gonna start having people over to the house, so every Wednesday night, we're gonna have people over. And it would really, "You, you're the best whatever cook I know, will you make this?" Or, "You're a terrible cook, please don't cook anything," right? Like, whatever the thing is, right?

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 1:00:27Dr. John Delony?

  But let's, let's, let's focus less on forcing, he's been forced enough.

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:33Dr. John Delony?

  Let's do the inviting that we can do. And you are right, pointing him back with all arrows, in some shape, form, or fashion, to connection. And I, and at this point, honestly, I wouldn't judge his connection. If he's connecting with older folks, that's amazing. Great.

• 1:00:50Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  Right, because definitely my goal is I just, I want to support him the best that I can. And you know, if that means like he hangs out with a bunch of, you know, 70 year olds, because I mean, that's great, like.

• 1:01:05Dr. John Delony?

  But invite him over.

• 1:01:08Dr. John Delony?

  Because sometimes people will hang out with 70 year olds because it's safe and it's surface.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:14Dr. John Delony?

  But you as his partner, as a person who loves him can say, cool, uh, hold my beer. They're coming over here. And then we're going to learn how to play bridge. I don't, I just assumed that's a game they teach you how to play when you're 70. But like, we're playing bridge, we're playing dominoes and it's going to be like game on here at the house and we're in it, we're going to play. And um, you can't keep, you can't have these arm length friends. Or you can say, like, I don't know about these 70 year old women hanging out with my husband. So I want to meet them, I'm putting my eyes on them, I don't trust them, right? And you can be funny about it and but you're going to have these friends, amazing, but I want them to come over.

• 1:01:47Dr. John Delony?

  And slowly with you by his side, it pierces that inner um, bubble he's created in his home. Because here's the other side of this that we don't often like to talk about, you're trapped inside there too. When you know you're his only source of human connection of oxygen, it makes it hard for you to leave, right? And so it's, it's a both and thing.

• 1:02:11Dr. John Delony?

  But I'm going to say this, he won the cosmic lottery, meeting you. Thank you for loving him like you do, for caring about him, for doing your own work. Um, and I'd love to talk to him if he ever wants to call in. Love, love, love to hear a story and just sit with him. Thank you so much for the call, Beth, it means the world. Um, your trust and your bravery, thank you so much. And thank you for giving us a picture of what loving well looks like. Very few of us are married to somebody who's been through hell like that, but we all have partners who struggle and um, here a picture of what love looks like. Thank you for that. We'll be right back.

• 1:02:48Dr. John Delony?

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• 1:04:17Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we're back. Kelly, am I the problem?

• 1:04:21Speaker 04

  All right, this is from Brandon.

• 1:04:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  He says, "I am a deer hunter and I have family members that ask me for deer meat. I butcher my own meat and make really good products from deer meat. Every year, family, mainly my in-laws, ask for meat. I put a lot of time and effort into hunting. They don't offer to help, but always want and ask for meat in indirect ways. I can't sell it to them because that's against the law. I enjoy eating the deer that I harvest and the products that I make, so they are taking away from my food supply. I don't ask them for a ribeye steak every year. Am I the problem?"

• 1:04:57Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, you're the problem. He is the problem. He is. Yes, here's why. I guarantee you, a guy that has all of his own processing stuff at his house, doesn't not talk about it.

• 1:05:14Dr. John Delony?

  And so you have in-laws that are probably doing the best they can to identify with their addition to their family as they look at him, the guy who's with, I'm assuming their daughter. And so he hunts, I'm sure she tells him, oh, he's out hunting. I'm sure he goes to family events and gets out of his truck wearing camo something or other like, the family gets it. And so A, at one point, he probably showed up to a family event and had cooked venison for them and was very proud of it. And it was probably spectacular. And they're like, man, I'd love some of that. And he trying to impress his in-laws gave them some.

• 1:05:54Dr. John Delony?

  And so now he's got to be a grown up and just say, no, thank you. And so the boundary is not, is it rude to ask? Is it rude to like, hey, I want some of that deer meat you made? Great. The boundary is on the receiving end, like, oh, man, I've given away all I can give away this year. The rest of it, I've got saved for the family. And if they don't like that, that's, that's their issue. You get what I'm saying? I just, I just don't, if, if you, let me, let me say it like this. So all of my old students, not all of them, a number of my old students, which is the in the numbers in the thousands, right? Over the years, parents, family members, old friends, as this podcast, as this YouTube

• 1:06:39Dr. John Delony?

  show has taken off, I've had people calling me and texting me from way back in the day, right? Of all sorts, people just had, still had my number in their phone. Some of it is amazing, some of it is like, I don't remember who you are. And some of it is I've cheered with old students who have new jobs. It's great, but it gets to be a lot sometimes when I get 30 or 40 or 50 text messages a day from people that I haven't, right? And so I asked a buddy of mine who's a country music star, I said, hey, when, when did you change your number? Cause I remember him changing his number one time. And he walked me through the pros and cons of changing your number, but he said something that was so profound and I'm so glad that he gave me this wisdom. He goes, you can change your number. Here's, here's the good thing about it, but here's the bad thing. And it comes with a lot of bad stuff when you just change your number midstream. And he goes, there's also one other thing you can do. And I was like, what is it?

• 1:07:24Dr. John Delony?

  And he looked at me over dinner and he goes, you can be a grown man and just not reply.

• 1:07:31Dr. John Delony?

  And I was like, well, I don't like that because that makes me feel sad. Right. He started laughing. He's like, just be a grown man and just say, I can't do your, I can't come speak at your small office thing. I appreciate the invitation. You all have a great one. And from that moment on, it's their response is their deal, not yours. And that piece of wisdom was like, dude, if you're good at something, people are going to want to be a part of it. They're going to ask you and you get to be the one that says, no, I can't make that happen. Or I've given away all I could give away this year. Next year, maybe I'll see if I can get another deer. Um, or I didn't hunt as good like this year, this particular year, I didn't have a great season. And so I've got less to pass around to everybody like I usually do. It's all good, but I, I don't know. I think he's the problem. Like just say no. What do you, you don't think so?

• 1:08:15Speaker 04

  Yes, and.

• 1:08:16Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  Um, I also think.

• 1:08:17Dr. John Delony?

  Look at you listening to this show. Yes, and. Wow, Kelly's getting all growed up. I don't know what to do with emotionally stable Kelly.

• 1:08:24Speaker 04

  Let's not go that far. Um, I can also see a side where they're mooching.

• 1:08:31Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 1:08:32Speaker 04

  And they're adults as well. And, um, now he has to be the one, obviously to set the boundary because they're not going to.

• 1:08:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, moochers are going to mooch.

• 1:08:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, clearly. Um, but you know, it's kind of like, if you know somebody that, Cody, our friend Cody takes pictures. I would never ask him to do it for free.

• 1:08:51Dr. John Delony?

  Correct.

• 1:08:52Speaker 04

  But I guarantee you people do.

• 1:08:53Dr. John Delony?

  All day, every day.

• 1:08:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. And in this case, this guy can't sell it because it is illegal. Cause that was my first thought was sure I can, if you pay me.

• 1:09:00Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  But you can't do that because it's illegal and he's trying to follow the laws.

• 1:09:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, but also you can buy, yes, but I'll trade you some meat for a boxable.

• 1:09:08Speaker 04

  Right. Or maybe that's what, you know, you can't just continually take and take and take and take. Because they're saving money by not having to buy meat for their family.

• 1:09:18Dr. John Delony?

  They also may throw it away and think, we're just trying to show this guy that we love him. We don't really, uh, who, who, who?

• 1:09:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Dr. John Delony?

  Who knows?

• 1:09:24Speaker 04

  I think both sides need to be.

• 1:09:25Dr. John Delony?

  And here's the thing, like, so using Cody, he's my manager. He's a good friend of ours.

• 1:09:30Dr. John Delony?

  Cody also often has a camera around his neck around here. He's taking pictures of all kinds of stuff, right? Like during Battle of the Bands, he's in the mosh pit taking pictures. Like, so it's not a leap to me to think, "Oh, this guy just always is taking pictures of everything. Hey, would you mind taking pictures of my family?" Without thinking, "That's a business, that's an industry." That's a whole thing, and he's a world-class professional photographer in addition to wrangling me for a living, right? So, I put it to him to say, "Oh yeah, here's what I charge, here's the business part of it." And then if I want to get like, "Who do you think you are?" That's on me, man. I don't know, I guess, I don't know. People ask, they're just gonna ask. And maybe that's just me the last couple of years, I've had to make peace with people

• 1:10:15Dr. John Delony?

  who want me to do a lot of free stuff, and I just can't. I can't meet all of those calendar demands. And so, I've had to just make peace with. I'm gonna, I think it's a, I feel good that they asked. That's cool. And, I mean, and it's on me to say no, so, I don't know. If you're a great deer hunter and you make great processed foods, expect people to ask you for it, because venison is awesome. And then you just gotta be a grown-up and say no. Yes and, don't be a moochers. Is that good, Kelly?

• 1:10:44Speaker 04

  Good job.

• 1:10:45Dr. John Delony?

  I feel like you mooch on me sometimes.

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  Sorry for what?

• 1:10:51Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know, but I'll think of something. Love you guys, bye.