Why Chronic Disease is Exploding w/ Daniel Schmachtenberger

I recently sat down with Daniel Schmachtenberger, a strategist and founding voice behind The Consilience Project, to explore the deeper systems fueling today’s chronic disease epidemic. On this episode of The Dr. Hyman Show, Daniel shares a powerful perspective on how modern life impacts our health and what it will take to create lasting change. Here’s what we cover: • Why chronic disease today is largely “man-made” and what that actually means • How pollution, industrial systems, and healthcare itself are quietly driving illness • Why medical stats can be misleading and how to think beyond symptom management • What it will take to build a system that prioritizes prevention and real well-being This episode offers a rare lens on the systems shaping our well-being. I hope it sparks new insights and inspires action. View Show Notes From This Episode Get Free Weekly Health Tips from Dr. Hyman https://drhyman.com/pages/picks?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Sign Up for Dr. Hyman’s Weekly Longevity Journal https://drhyman.com/pages/longevity?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Join the 10-Day Detox to Reset Your Health https://drhyman.com/pages/10-day-detox Join the Hyman Hive for Expert Support and Real Results https://drhyman.com/pages/hyman-hive This episode is brought to you by BON CHARGE, Big Bold Health, Paleovalley and AirDoctor. Head to boncharge.com and use code DRMARK for 15% off your order. Get 30% off HTB Immune Energy Chews at bigboldhealth.com and use code DRMARK30. Get nutrient-dense, whole foods. Head to paleovalley.com/hyman for 15% off your first purchase. Get cleaner air. Right now, you can get up to $300 off at airdoctorpro.com/drhyman.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Coming up on this episode of the Dr. Hyman Show. We are food we wouldn't be safe to eat.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  We have a progress narrative that things are getting better and better because of tech and capitalism. And there are certainly areas where that's true. It's just not the whole story.

• 0:10Speaker 02

  Daniel Schmachtenberger is a social philosopher.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  And system strategist studying how collapsing institutions

• 0:16Speaker 04

  and exponential tech are reshaping our health.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Some of the effects of tech and capitalism create environmental pollution, cheaper healthcare, or cheaper food that has side effects and externalities that affect our bodies. And so we figured out organophosphates, napalm, awesome. We can kill a lot of people and defoliate the whole jungle of Vietnam with this. Oh, guess what? We can also make an herbicide and spray it on all of our food. As you see in your clinic every day, it's all changeable. And it's changeable acutely for each person, behaviors they can take. And it's changeable at scale for everybody with behaviors we can take to do systemic changes.

• 0:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Before we jump into today's episode, I want to share a few ways you can go deeper on your health journey. While I wish I could work with everyone one-on-one, there just isn't enough time in the day. So I've built several tools to help you take control of your health. If you're looking for guidance, education, and community, check out my private membership, The Hyman Hive, for live Q and As, exclusive content, and direct connection. For real-time lab testing and personalized insights into your biology, visit Function Health. You can also explore my curated doctor trusted supplements and health products at drhyman.com. And if you prefer to listen without any breaks, don't forget you can enjoy every episode of this podcast ad-free with Hyman Plus. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap Try Free to start your seven-day free trial. All right, Daniel, I'm so excited to have you on the show. This is a long time in coming.

• 1:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  We had many conversations, which I've tried to keep up with, and understand how you think. Because I don't imagine many people have heard of you, know about you, or know who you are. But your background and your thinking is so remarkable in its depth and its clarity and its ability to bridge many different disciplines and come up with an overarching understanding of what's wrong in our society and where our existential threats are and how we can fix them. It's going to be straight. We're in a really shitty situation where we have more and more healthcare, quote, sick care.

• 2:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And more and more illness and it's exploding at such a rate that we can't even keep up with it. Just in my 40 years of being a doctor, I've seen just the acceleration of chronic diseases and both in the amount of suffering, the severity, the scope of them, the increase in new diseases. It's just, it's remarkable. But the last, you know, 100 years, we've seen this sort of inversion of, of, of the life expectancy curve. It's kind of got, starting to dip down and we're starting to see a drop in life expectancy. And I think it has to do with the kind of rise of what you have termed anthropogenic disease.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  First, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I followed your work for a very long time before we got to know each other through Institute of Functional Medicine and things like that. Obviously, over the 40 years you've been in practice, that was already after the better living through chemistry boom started and modern industrial agriculture started. So it would be even a more extreme picture if we went back further. You've obviously studied the history on going back further. A lot of people think, oh, well, the rise in diseases is just a result of we're diagnosing more or something like that as opposed to, no, there are ways, like we have a progress narrative that things are getting better and better because of tech and capitalism and democracy and whatever. And there, there are certainly areas where that's true. It's just not the whole story. Right? And there are areas where some of the effects of tech and capitalism

• 3:29Speaker 01

  create environmental pollution or cheaper healthcare or cheaper food that has side effects and externalities that affect the environment but help affect our bodies.

• 3:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So, so let's talk about that. I mean, let's dive into what, you know, we're sort of set the stage for the fact that, you know, we were having increasing rates of these chronic diseases, increasing rates of mental health crisis, increasing rates of neurodevelopmental issues, decreasing life expectancy. I mean, it's a grim, it's a grim situation and we're spending more and more and getting less and less. So the question then is, you know, what is this context in which the disease occurring? Why is this happening? And, and what are the anthropogenic reasons for this chronic disease epidemic?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  So you were, as you were going through the list, you mentioned vitamin D, you mentioned mercury, that's obviously deficiency, toxicity, you mentioned some pathogens, you mentioned stress. So you have a model of like what the underlying categories are. And a lot of them are things like, everybody knows what acute deficiency is, what acute toxicity. You just got a bag of chemicals poured on you, you have acute poisoning, you're vomiting, you have to go in for toxicology. But there is something that is called toxicity that is not just a hippie nonsense idea, it's a real thing. It is not acute poisoning.

• 4:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  That is chronic, that is subclinical or subacute. Same with infections, there's, you have acute infection, you're producing symptomology versus kind of subclinical infections, which is in Lyme disease or in, you know, viruses that cause cancers or whatever it is. So the treatment of everyone's going to be personalized, not based on a disease diagnosis, but based on their actual medical history, their symptomology, their labs, and what's uniquely going on for them. But it's going to be personalized within a framework that is kind of not that hard.

• 5:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, that's right. I mean, the laws of nature are pretty simple. Pierre Le Pla said, there's the laws of biology, when I think we're describing them, and I think we're getting toward approximation of what that looks like. And there's, you know, functional medicine is just a heuristic, it's not the end all and be all, it's just a framework that we're continually evolving to understand the complexity of human biology, which is infinitely unknowable, but even though it's so complex, you know, a rocket ship is complicated.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:35Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's, but it's knowable, it's a known known.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Well, there's a blueprint that specifies it completely.

• 5:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  And DNA is actually not a blueprint.

• 5:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  It's a generator function, which can make a new protein it's never made exposed to a new thing.

• 5:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Right? And it evolved rather than was designed, which is why it's self repairing, right? The rocket ship doesn't self repair, it doesn't self evolve.

• 5:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And so biology is, is not mechanics, right? It's like, it's a different, unique thing that to have a system that self organizes, wasn't created by, from the outside, that has an immune system, right? Like, it'd be dope if our computer had an immune system, but it doesn't, or our car, right? Things that self prepare and self evolve. And so we're like, okay, what's happening in a system that is building itself, evolving itself, repairing itself is obviously different in type than a system that doesn't repair itself, that doesn't evolve itself. So we have to make sure we're using the right epistemology, right? The right kind of scientific framework. So you were talking about laws of biology, and we're talking about anthropogenic stuff, which is like stuff in the current world that is different than the evolutionary environment, even though our genes aren't different.

• 6:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Right? Like modifying the environment in a way that we are not actually genetically fit to.

• 6:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That mismatch is really why we're sick.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  So let's talk about that a little bit, because I think the first thing is a lot of people are still suffering from the propaganda of Hobbes and Hobbes's descendants, right? And in the state of nature's life is brutish, short, nasty, and mean.

• 7:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And as you already mentioned, the average life expectancy was 30, and their life was shit the entire time until they were 30. And, you know, that's nature, right? That's just nature. That's human biology. That's nature. And are civilizing ourselves. Technology is creating longer lives, and everything's getting better and better. And this is like awesome propaganda. If you're colonialists and you want to kill all the natives.

• 7:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  We're helping them by killing them because they wanted to suffer so much.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I mean, Churchill has a famous quote that says, I'm gonna paraphrase it. I actually have a whole list of quotes about manifest destiny of kings. I mean, manifest destiny in the US and divine right of kings and like just stuff that when we look back, we say, wow, that was the most dreadful propaganda nonsense. But we still do the same kind of thing.

• 7:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  But Churchill said something like, you know, I don't hold for one second that our treatment of the red man is a bad thing in any way, because evolution selects for higher life forms and a higher species replacing the lower species is good. Right? And you're like, shit, that's a big deal. So North and South America, the Americas before Columbus, et cetera, right? Before colonization, was roughly, depending on who you look at, 140 million people. And within a short period of colonization, both from infections and war and driving them out of viable habitats, the population was decimated by 90%. And if you look at that and you compare it to whatever, 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, right? And

• 8:28Speaker 01

  you're like, 190% of 140 million, which is so many different civilizations that had different. Languages and songs and art and pharmacologies and just gone. And similarly, so many ecosystems, so many species, like we don't have the giant sloth. We don't have the mammoth. Those were largely, many of those were early human extinction from over hunting, from destroying habitats. And, and of course it makes sense that like, if the winner writes history, of course they're the good guy, right? The winner's not going to say, we were the bad guys, but we were better at weapons than them. We destroyed them because they were peaceful and lovely. No, we're going to say they were, they were brutish and terrible and we brought democracy and Christianity and whatever, you know?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  You can say Christianity, you can say Islam, you can say whatever the thing is that is justifying why it won. So there's something where it's like the dominant narrative of a power system has to justify the power system. And so it's going to be apologism to the power system. We saw that through the Crusades, through the dark ages. And so history is hard, right? Because we got to read this stuff that's written by the winners.

• 9:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And you're like, in general, more peaceful cultures got slaughtered by more war ring cultures. It's not like everybody that Genghis Khan slaughtered was a less good civilization.

• 9:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  No.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  They were less good at war, but how many people that knew how to live in more peace got slaughtered in the process? Cause they didn't build maximally lethal militaries. And yet we are the descendants of who made it through history.

• 9:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  People are good at war and weapons and killing.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Growing massive populations, not keeping populations in stable relationship with their environment. Good at technology that can be used in competition and war. So it's a really interesting selection criteria. So then we tell the story, oh, they only lived for 30 years and life was terrible. And, but you were just saying like, hey, no, actually some of the plains Indians were lived into a hundred. A lot of them were lived into a hundred. This is such an important story because I think one of the things that I want to get across in this conversation is there's still this general idea that is a part of the progress narrative, that is a part of just propaganda, say. That is, the diseases come from nature. Man in a state of nature's life is brutish or nasty, I mean.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  And the progress comes from science and the application of science, the technology brought to the world via the market, blah, blah, blah. And now look at how long we live and, you know, vaccines solved all these issues and whatever. It's not that there's no truth to it, but it is cherry picking. The stats are pretty heavily.

• 10:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Ninety percent of measles was gone when they've introduced the vaccine because of better sanitation and health.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  This is a pretty important part of the story. And so if you rewind a little bit to, say, Dark Ages Europe, this is not an indigenous culture. And then if the indigenous cultures you're studying post-science, which is very recently, are post Trail of Tears, after you've already slaughtered most of them, moved them to an area where they don't understand the plants or animals and that were like crap areas. And then they're drinking and whatever, you're like, this is not a study of indigenous people. So there's a lot of indigenous scholars, they're like, come on, this is ridiculous. Like, no, we had a lot of people that were 100 years old. There's a lot of diseases we just didn't have. So the idea that like, that diseases just come from nature, our genome is a bummer, right? Like nature's a bummer, tech is going to solve it. As opposed to like, actually technological agriculture has really made a lot of people sick.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Technological mining and et cetera that has caused ubiquitous pollution made a lot of people sick. So when we say anthropogenic disease, we're not just talking about iatrogenic, right? Anthropogenic meaning diseases we have that are a result of our own action as a species. So if you take mining, for instance, right? There's, there's two billion tons of municipal waste produced every year. Waste that, you know, like comes from our house. It's a lot, two billion tons, like mind blowing when you think about it. There's about 190 billion tons of mining waste produced every year.

• 12:13Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's a lot.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Cause you mine stuff, but that rock isn't, it's not all the thing you want, right? You want a particular metal. All the stuff you don't want is waste, is tailings. That stuff is almost all super toxic and it gets put in some big dam that eventually breaks and all goes in water. This is comprehensively undoing what took the biosphere a billion years to do that made life possible in the first place. This is, you had actually mentioned something, I want to, it's a tangent, but I want to double down on this.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Maybe there's aliens, who knows? We're not going to get into that part right now. But when we look out at the universe, we see a lot of planets that are not habitable. And we don't see a lot of places that look habitable. This place is pretty awesome.

• 12:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Any.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Right? Carl Sagan's pale blue dot is as relevant today as it was back then.

• 12:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  So this, like, the fact that it's habitable to life is a big deal. We should want to protect it more than anything.

• 13:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Not move to Mars?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Obviously, if you deal with radiation and other issues, point four G is a pretty tricky issue to deal with. Right? As you see, the people who go into zero G and they do a lot of resistance training and everything to try to deal with it. Bone density goes down, neural density goes down. Neural density drops pretty massively. So, you know, like, obviously, we evolved it to this planet. We have a planet that supports life. It's rare as can be, right? It's everything we care about depends on that. And it took a long, like, the other planets didn't do that. At least in the time period that we can see, that's very special.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  It took a, whatever, a billion-ish years for geological hydrological processes to make a space where a biogenesis could start to happen, right? Where life could start to emerge. And that was trapping all the super toxic stuff in which life couldn't emerge in rocks in the lithosphere and making a certain temperature range and, you know, whatever that life could emerge in. And then it took like a billion years of just single cell creatures to make a biosphere in which multicellular creatures could emerge and on and on. And, and then you look at the biosphere, a complex biosphere, and you're like, it's pretty much six atoms. Right? Like, there's ninety-two elements in the table. Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Oxygen first, right? Like sixty five percent of our body by weight is oxygen. Because of water, oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, calcium make up ninety six percent of our weight.

• 14:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  And you add the few electrolytes in there and it's ninety nine percent of our weight. And then you have trace minerals and the trace minerals are important. They're a tiny bit, but roughly every animal, plant, whatever, has the same distribution of trace minerals, the same building blocks, the same type of molecular bonds. It's a humongous deal to understand. Me and you and a dog and a mouse and a scorpion and a tree and a fungus are made of the same stuff, same atoms, same molecular bonds. Which is why any of them can die, go on the soil, turn into soil, turn into new stuff. A tree can fall. Body can fall. An animal can defecate. Rattlesnake poison, right? Like super duper poisonous stuff. Still the nature of the bonds. It dies, breaks down, doesn't stay as an enduring toxin.

• 15:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Unlike plutonium, which stays around forever.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yes, or peahoss or whatever, right? Styrofoam. Because those are either atoms that were not part of the biosphere that we got through mining. Or molecules that we made up in a chem lab that nothing in nature knows how to break down, right? Like your bond. So just to get a sense of like, part of what allows evolution to work is that we're all made of the same stuff. And we need the same physics, right? Obviously, the North Pole to the equator are different temperatures. So polar bears don't do very well in the savannah and cheetahs wouldn't do very well in the Arctic. But the temperature difference from the North Pole to the equator is almost nothing compared to everywhere else in outer space. Right? Suns are really hot. Well, some things are very hot, some things are very cold.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  But like, everything here operates with the same pressure, the same physics, the same ionizing radiation, the same chemicals, the same temperature ranges. That's a big deal to get. And the same chemicals and the same molecular bonds is a huge deal. And it's part of why co-evolution works, why there can be mutual symbiosis is we are literally recyclable into each other.

• 16:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Now, if you think about. From that perspective, how rare life in the universe is, how rare the biosphere is, how it's all based on basically the same six atoms, same molecular bonds and a little bit of trace minerals. You think, then you start to think about how mind-blowingly stupid mining is.

• 16:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Taking other weird things out of the earth that should be buried in there and

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Things.

• 16:49Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That we should be protected from because they don't do well with our biology.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Things that are omnitoxic to all life forms, right? Like mercury is bad for all life forms. Cadmium is bad for all life forms. Lead is bad for all life forms, et cetera. So fortunately for us, the earth has a lot of those, but they're all bound in rock in the lithosphere, under the biosphere, not part of the biosphere. We don't have to deal with them. So what do we do? We say those are useful for industrial purposes. So let's actually destroy the biosphere on top to make a mine. Let's pull this rock up. Let's pull that super toxic thing out through smelting and metallurgy and whatever. And if we just kept it all in a perfect metal and recycled, it'd be one thing. But we burn the coal and put the mercury and lead in the air. We put the lead in the gasoline, you know, and aerosolized it. We, um, and then also the rest of the part that is toxic tailings also goes out. So you're like, we have one planet that we know is habitable.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  It's habitable because of specific chemistry and we are as fast as possible making omnitoxic shit that chemistry can't deal with.

• 17:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And that's a big part of what's making us sick. And it's something that medicine sort of ignored, which is this chronic low level burden of toxins that we're all exposed to. And we're all basically assessable. If we were food, we wouldn't be safe to eat. You know, the average newborn has 287 toxins in their umbilical cord blood.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait.

• 18:02Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Before they take their first breath.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  We see the same thing in the mother's breast milk, right? And her blood, like just people need to have this sink in. Mother breast milk, mother's blood, baby umbilical cord, two to 300 petrochemical and industrial toxins.

• 18:15Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's crazy. I mean, you should still breastfeed.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  To even call it low level is ridiculous, actually.

• 18:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I mean, I, I, I, I often thought of a business of creating a, you know, breast milk filter. I don't know how you'd do that, but.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Well, the lymphatic system is a filter.

• 18:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  But it can only fill like in our evolutionary environment, we were not exposed to organophosphates. So what evolutionary process can deal with organophosphates? And so we figured out organophosphates, napalm, awesome. We can kill a lot of people and defoliate the whole jungle of Vietnam with this. Oh, guess what? We can also make an herbicide and spray it on all of our food.

• 18:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Lipocysteine.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. To think about this thing that we invented as a chemical weapon to destroy nature at scale.

• 18:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Napalm, which is doxet.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Same molecular class. We figure out, oh, we can kill weeds. In agricultural settings, but we're going to spray it on all the food and humans are going to eat trace amounts of all of it. And the pesticides, like the thing that blows my mind about pesticides, you're like, okay, nuclear modeling, nuclear war happens, nuclear winter, almost everything dies. The only things that may get are bugs with exoskeletons. We want to make something poisonous enough to kill bugs that can make it through a nuclear winter and we spray it all over our food.

• 19:20Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yes.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  And then eat it. And just because we're bigger, we, it's, it's not a lethal amount, but it's a long term.

• 19:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  But it accumulates and it's additive. And over time, it's sort of like, that's what I see so many, so many of the times that we see, and in many of the diseases of aging and chronic diseases we're talking about, including autoimmune diseases, are all a result of this total load phenomenon. It's not just one thing, it's a total load of everything. And you keep adding and adding and adding.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  So when you say load level, it's important to say, so we're talking about lead poisoning, right? There's like, you have acute lead poisoning, you have Mata Hatter syndrome. Okay, that happens because you're working in a lead mine or some industrial source, right? But how much was there in an evolutionary environment? None. So what amount is good for you? None.

• 20:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right. That's why I laugh when I see the reference range on the lab of like, the level of mercury that's considered normal is one, zero to 10. I'm like, well, there's no biological requirement for mercury, it's zero is the normal level.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yes. Yet, that would mess up so much industry that the industry is going to lobby the EPA to make a number that doesn't mess up the industry too much. And the cost, the externalized cost is your children's health.

• 20:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And your grandparents' health and your health and the cancers that everybody's going to get.

• 20:32Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah. I see this, I mean, I, I saw this kid in my practice years ago. His mother was just so, such a good attentive, observant mother and she, she saw this kid who went from a normal little kid to being extremely difficult, extremely aggressive, violent, learning difficulties, dysgraphia, dyslexia, just a whole bunch of things, neurodevelopmental things. And you know, she, she said, we live north of Albany in this town where there's a cement plant across the street from the school. This is, this is why the history is so important. How many doctors ask their patients if they live near a cement plant or a coal plant? Not, nobody asks that, right? But it's part of the history that we find really essential.

• 21:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And she said, every day after school, the, the cars would be coated, like in Austin here. When it's pollen season, like your cars is coated with pollen. Their cars every day were coated with dust from the cement plant. And that quote, dust was a toxic soup of chemicals. And when I actually did a chelation challenge test, which again, it's something we don't do in traditional medicine. But we look at your blood levels and that can tell you if there's any acute exposure. And often there, there are levels that are significant. You see kids, for example, with high lead from environmental exposure. But it's, it, it often is stored in the tissues. And so we give a drug called the DMSA, which is a FDA approved drug for chelation.

• 21:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's a Greek word that means to claw, to bind some things, or binds the metals. And then we collect the urine and we saw this kid was just, everything was just lit up. You know, arsenic, aluminum, mercury, lead.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  One of the things you said is you had to use a different testing method.

• 22:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Right? Because of course, if there's something that's circulating in the blood, it's going to cross the blood brain barrier. That's going to go into the kidneys and hurt the nephrons. It's so dangerous to keep in the blood, the body will excrete it as fast as it can. If it can't excrete it fast enough, it wants to get it out of the blood.

• 22:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  So it goes into a tissue. So you do a blood level. Blood level is the wrong thing to do, right? If, if you're not looking at tissue levels, which is what, but tissue biopsies are not a non-invasive thing to do. But this is just important to be like, people could say, oh, this nonsense. I've ran the labs and nobody has heavy metal. Well, are you running the right labs? Very important topic. And again, there's some theory under it.

• 22:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And one of the, one of the, you know, one of the gold standard tests for lead, for example, is looking at, at bone levels through various specialized types of imaging that are used in research. And that's what you should be looking at. It's sort of like the joke I always tell that, you know, this guy drops his keys on the street and he's looking for them in his, on this light post and his friend's like, what are you doing? He's, I'm looking for my keys. He said, where did you drop them? He's like, I dropped them down the street. He said, why are you looking here? He said, the lights better here. And that's what we do in medicine. We tend to do testing that we have available, but not the right testing. And, and I even remember an article in the New England Journal of Medicine, or a JAMA, was one of those, I was talking about like mercury and. And they said, well, we checked the blood because that's the easiest thing to do. I'm like, well, that's not where you want to check, you know, to see what's really going on.

• 23:30Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And so this kid, these kids who were living at the cement plant were severely affected by these. And by treating them and getting rid of the metals and decreasing their toxin burden, they were able to actually recover and do well.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So everybody, or most people know the story of leaded gasoline, tetraethyl lead being added to gasoline. Most people don't know the story well. There's actually an exceptional video on this made by Veritasium, a YouTube channel online that describes the, you know, tetraethyl lead story. It was an additive for gasoline in the early phases of internal combustion engines that stopped engine knocking, as in not even absolutely crucial. Heaps of other chemistries that could stop engine knocking, as obviously we know, because we don't have lead anymore. The early studies that were done on tetraethyl lead on toxicity, the people did get sick, including the researcher, and the results were hidden. So it wasn't that we couldn't have possibly known.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  It was we actually knew, hid it and brought it out anyways because of the economic interest. And then to think about like what, what adding lead to gasoline means, which is you're aerosolizing it, right? You're not just putting it in the water or the soil. You're literally atomizing one of the most toxic chemicals that exists and putting it into the air at scale, right? So of course, even though it was already known toxic, that was hidden. And then the companies that were producing the tetraethyl lead fought really hard to keep it there and not ban it. And it only finally got banned after the preponderance of how much harm it was causing got proven decades later. The effects, when you look back in just America, are estimated at a billion points of IQ loss for Americans.

• 25:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  And

• 25:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's staggering.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I just would like people to take in.

• 25:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Make Americans dumber.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. A billion points of IQ loss for a population that was less than 300 million people.

• 25:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Is a lot of IQ loss. And then there were also studies on increased violence and aggravation.

• 25:35Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  That showed that populations that were heavily exposed had something like 4X the impulse control disorders.

• 25:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Impulse controls, cold performance, cognitive deficits.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Not to mention the bone issues, the osteoporosis, the cancer, everything else. But if we just look at even the psychocognitive elements, because one of the, like, again, one of the bullshit stories that is real politic is like, it goes back to the Hobbesian stories, like, humans are kind of dumb and nasty. That's why we need rule, right? Humans are kind of dumb and nasty. Well, empirically, we made humans dumber and nastier with just the aerosolizing lead. And you're like, who would the humans be?

• 26:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  If we weren't, if we hadn't done that. So then you say, okay, well, that's an old story because we got rid of lead. Well, no, those effects are enduring.

• 26:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Lead doesn't go away. It's in the soil still.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  It's still in most of the pipes.

• 26:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's in the pipes, right?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Right? It's like, we still see it in water.

• 26:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That whole thing that happened in Flint, Michigan.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  But Albany's worse than Flint, Michigan.

• 26:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Even though we supposedly banned lead in gasoline, it's still used in prop planes. It's still used in certain military and farm equipment and other kinds of things. So we're still using it. It's supposedly banned around the world, but it's still used because not enforced in the third world pretty heavily. But then the lead that comes from mining, specifically mining affluent, there's a study I saw in 2019 that showed children under five lost 780 million IQ points just in 2019, just from lead.

• 26:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, it's interesting. It's not just that it affects your cognitive function. It affects everything. You know, there, there was a really pioneering study that I, I saw in American Journal of Cardiology where they found that anybody with a lead level of over two, and by the way, the lead levels that they thought were harmful were 40 and over.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Then it was 20, then it was 10. Now it's 10.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  But that was not based on proving that they weren't. That was based on lobbying from the company, from the industries that produced the lead that wanted to not have that much restriction.

• 27:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  But still, the lead levels that quote normal is one to zero to 10, right? And in this American Journal Cardiology study, they found that.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Excuse me, I was saying the arguing for it being higher was the lobbying side, the proving the toxicity brought it lower, but it's still, as you're mentioning, one to 10.

• 27:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, still one to 10. So it's still pretty bad. And what they found was in terms of kids cognitive function, it was a continuum from zero to 10. Still causing a problem. It wasn't like you had no effect. So that's been well proven. But what was really interesting was the American Journal Cardiology found that if your lead level was over two, about two out of 10, which is 39% of the population of adults and kids. It was a bigger risk factor for stroke and heart attack than having abnormal cholesterol. Which nobody talks about. So you go to the cardiologist, they're not checking your lead levels. And one of the.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  And even if they did, that's only one fifth of the allowable level.

• 28:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right. And what's really interesting is that there was this whole movement in the 70s and 80s for chelation therapy, which was thought to be quackery. And the NIH did a $30 million trial, called the TAC trial, where they use EDTA IV chelation, EDTA specifically removes lead. And they found that it was very actually effective in preventing heart disease and heart attacks. And yet it's not part of standard medicine.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Lead increasing heart disease more, you said more than cholesterol markers? Yeah. And how much do people hear about the safe, quote unquote, safe levels of lead compared to cholesterol when it comes to heart disease from the cardiologist, right?

• 29:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Nobody.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  But, and again, we're not just saying within the safe range, we're saying not even close to the top of the range.

• 29:12Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Right? Someone would look at it and they'd be like, oh, I'm near the bottom of the range. That's awesome.

• 29:15Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Except the range, you're like in evolutionary levels, it's not even the right scale because what we're calling one to 10 is actually like one to a million in terms of what should be the right part per billion scale.

• 29:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I mean, there were moments in human history where there were volcanoes and there was exposures, but not much, right? Not much, yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  In terms of like the famous topic people like to talk about right now of what caused the fall of the Roman Empire, there's a whole

• 29:36Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Lead pipes.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Hypothesis about, well, lead was added to sugar to make a particular kind of sweetness. And lead was actually added as a food additive and to alcohol, plus the lead pipes, plus the

• 29:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Actually, I'd love the story. I have a few patients who, you know, are wealthy and, you know, they, they get fine crystal where they, they have wine out of leaded crystal. I remember buying wine glasses once and I went to the store and I'm like, you know, these are $5 a piece and these are $50 a piece. I'm like, why is this $50 wine glass? He said, well, it's, you know, it's leaded crystal. I'm like, leaded crystal? Why? He says, well, because the lead makes the wine taste sweeter. That's why I kid eat paint chips because it tastes sweet. I was like, wow. And then they have fancy glazed plates, which are from Italy or France, which is the glaze is full of lead. So you can get it in lots of different ways.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  The fact that in 2019, children under five globally had 780 million points of IQ loss. That's like, that should be up there in crimes against humanity as like whoever the fuck did this needs, like the whole industry needs to be punished. Like, because those kids' lives are ruined, right? Like massively ruined forever. The civilization that those kids run with less cognitive power as we're moving into an increasingly complex world.

• 30:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And the IQ is obviously just one thing. It's increased heart disease, increased cancer, increased osteoporosis, and increased impulse control disorders, aggression, like there's psychiatric components. So sicker, dumber and meaner. And we're just talking about one

• 31:09Dr. Mark Hyman?

  One compound. And, and, and you're right. I mean, you know, they looked at, at the children of the farm workers in California who were exposed to large amounts of pesticides and herbicides, that, that cohort of kids that they studied, lost 41 million IQ points just from exposure to pesticides. It was not just lead.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  So you add the pesticides up, you add the lead up, you add the mercury up, you add the, the, there's 350,000 chemicals that are in regular industrial use that are regulated, something like that. There's 280 million chemicals in the database of the American Chemical Society. And

• 31:46Speaker 01

  We're talking about like things that were not part of our evolutionary environment are not part of the makeup.

• 31:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  The thing that I think we have a way of talking about disease in medicine. You I got cancer.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Got heart disease, I got diabetes, I got Alzheimer's, you don't get it. It's like, it's not like a bug that you catch or a cold. It's a consequence of the environment in which we live. And that's that's sort of what you're talking about. Because a lot of, a lot of populations lived very old. I mean, the plains Indians had the highest number of centenarians at the turn of the century of any population. They were hunter gatherers. And so it wasn't like every hunter gatherer died at 40. But the last, you know, 100 years, we've seen this sort of inversion of the life expectancy curve. It's kind of got starting to dip down and we're starting to see a drop in life expectancy. So I think, you know, we we're not taught that these things are fixable. But if you understand the underlying cause model of medicine and understand how to identify

• 32:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  the causes and figure out also how to create a thriving human and provide those conditions. Because right now, as you know, you sort of talk about this anthropogenic disease, this really means we've created an environment in which disease flourishes. It's sort of a disease causing culture, society, environment, food environment, toxin environment. When you kind of remove those things as best you can, these diseases can reverse. I had a guy who was living in Pittsburgh, who was seven years old and he, and I didn't know this, but Pittsburgh, you know, they they had the steel plants and they they use coal to, yeah, make steel. And they use the coal ash to cover their fields and to, when there's snowy icy roads, to put them on the snowy icy roads.

• 33:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And coal ash is full of lead and mercury. And he was extremely mercury toxic and also had other issues. He had insulin resistance, he had gut issues his whole life, so he had a lot of dysbiosis and gut inflammation. He had methylation issues, he'd be vitamin problems, he had a whole series of things. It wasn't just one thing. But you add all that together.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Plus his APOE double four status, which puts him at risk. And he was. Presenting with Alzheimer's. And yet, by a very aggressive detoxification program, by getting the metals out of his system, by chelation, which is heresy in medicine, by giving him methylating support, optimizing his gut function, fixing his insulin resistance, he reversed his cognitive decline and he was actually able to improve his mental status and go back to work, which was, again, something you just never see. I mean, who's seen a survivor of Alzheimer's?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Well, I know that you have for a long time known Dale Bredesen and his work in the space, and I think you are friends with someone I'm good friends with, Dr. Heather Sanderson, who wrote the book recently, Reversing Alzheimer's. And I think that was a number one, you know, New York Times bestseller for a while. And that particular study that she did there was inpatient using a Bredesen-like protocol.

• 34:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  That was reversing the Mocha scores in 70% of the people that went in within six months with pretty basic stuff, like largely diet, lifestyle, and a little bit of functional medicine.

• 34:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And the Mocha score is a sort of a cognitive assessment that's easy to do, and it's pretty predictive of where you are in the trajectory of memory loss and dementia.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Now, this is another one, if you look at Alzheimer's historically versus now, that is really a disease of modernity. Do you want to say?

• 35:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I mean, Alzheimer's did diagnosis way back when, in the turn of the century with, you know, this patient he had. But the rise in dementia is staggering, and it's one of the most costly conditions for humanity, not because of the direct medical care, because of the long-term care that they need, and because of the loss of the ability to work for their caregivers, their family members. I've seen a dramatic increase in dementia and cognitive decline, and it's sort of paralysed the rest of the chronic diseases that we're seeing increasing. And people say, oh, we're winning the war on heart disease. I'm like, nonsense. We're seeing less deaths because we have better advanced medical treatments, like bypasses and stents and thrombolytics and blood clot dissolvers. But we are seeing

• 35:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  more and more people getting heart disease, more and more people getting cancer, more and more people getting diabetes, and more and more people getting dementia. So despite the fact that we're spending trillions of dollars on healthcare, we're not getting much for our money. And this is kind of shocking.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  This is why people need to understand the statistical warfare as part of information warfare, is that you can cherry pick your stats, right? And you can lie with facts. You can mislead with facts. You can say less people are dying and what you're alluding to is the issue's getting better as opposed to, there was even one case in which the stats were used that less people were dying of gun violence and they were suggesting in that the gun violence went down, gun violence went up, just emergency care so people didn't die after they got shot.

• 36:31Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's right.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  And so it's entirely possible, just to speak to the larger political environment, and this is a bipartisan kind of universal, marketing-driven issue, is people who are pushing a narrative at scale usually have a motive to push the narrative, political motive, a capital motive, a something, right? And so you can take the whole story, just take parts of it, and you can have facts that make it through the most rigorous fact checker that are true, but are still misleading.

• 37:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, what Mark Twain said, he said, "There's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statisticians."

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yes. As you're mentioning, winning the war on heart disease, what you're actually seeing is the rates of heart disease are increasing. And so this is like this mortality morbidity trade-off.

• 37:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Right, which is, oh no, where people are living longer. And recently, there's been a downturn in, you know, living longer, but like, that kind of doesn't matter if the latter part of their life is on polypharmacy, is on a huge amount of meds with decreasing quality of life and only being kept alive kind of artificially. Like, if someone gets off their meds, they die. That's kind of like they're on life support.

• 37:39Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Which speaks to quality of life. I think a lot of people don't understand the mortality morbidity trade-off and that the stats that are cherry-picked to say longevity's going up or heart disease is going down, what it's not indicating. Is there more on that, you would say?

• 37:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, I mean, I think we're losing the battle on disease. We're spending more and more, I mean, we spend twice that of any other nation, often three, four, or five times as much, we're 48th in life expectancy and going down. Or a lot of our statistics are worse than most other countries.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  That's just, it's worth saying again, 48th in life expectancy.

• 38:15Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Forty-eight, I think we're going down. It's getting worse. And that's crazy.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  With a $5 trillion a year healthcare budget.

• 38:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, we're, I think- 30th among the top developed nations in healthcare metrics like infant mortality. And you know, we're, we're spending huge amounts, I think 40% of people who are over 65 take five or more medications a day. 20% take 10 or more medications.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Some of which are for the side effects of the other meds.

• 38:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, you know, 81% of Americans aren't at least one medication. So is this making us healthier? I don't think so. I mean, it's mitigating symptoms sometimes, maybe it addresses issues sometimes. But we know that our healthcare system itself is, and is the third leading cause of death. To prescribe drugs given for the right reason, at the right dose, for the right patient, not mistakes. Medical errors is another huge category, but I mean.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Let's put those together because when Ralph Nader was kind of popularizing this topic, some of the issues have gotten better on iatrogenesis. But if you take iatrogenesis to mean diseases that come from interaction with the healthcare system writ large, the broadest definition. So then it includes, as you mentioned, prescriptions that are rightly given, prescriptions that are wrongly given and allergic reactions to meds and drug interactions and whatever, surgeries, infections you get well in the hospital, et cetera. If you add those up, many people add those up and it's the number one cause

• 39:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  of death of Americans in the country.

• 39:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Basically, we shut down all the doctors and hospitals, get rid of all the drugs, we do better?

• 39:52Speaker 01

  We're not saying that because of course, we don't want to do statistical warfare because they're also saving lives, right? But we can say, damn, we should be able to do better on that side. And we can, right? Like you have plenty of clinical cases where you're saving more lives and causing much less iatrogenesis. And it actually costs less money when you factor all the matriculated things. There's obviously absence of acute symptomology does not equal a good definition of health because we all know cases where. Someone went to the doctor for a routine checkup and they find out that they have cancer and not that long to live and that cancer's been developing for a long time. And as you're mentioning with prediabetes, a long time before the acute diagnosis of now you have diabetes and you have to take a med for it, you were in metabolic syndrome.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And a long time before the autoimmune disease that produces enough symptomology, you had inflammatory markers that you could see.

• 40:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's right.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Like, how many years ahead can you see signs of?

• 40:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Decades.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Decades.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Now, if you see it decades ahead and you haven't had a humongous amount of tissue damage, you can do stuff about it. By the time you've got to advanced tissue damage, it's a lot harder.

• 40:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Right? You can still do stuff about it, which is amazing and, you know, your clinic will attest to that, but I mean, in med school, there's the stages of disease, which is you start with health is all the homeostatic systems and homeostasis is kind of a silly term because it's not stasis, right? Homeodynamics. So you have all these homeodynamic systems in the body that are responding to various stressors and the level they're at matters less than their responsive capacity, right? You want to be able to respond to hot and cold and to pathogens and whatever well. So you've got homeostasis or homeodynamics. Then you've got deviation from homeodynamics. Something comes, it takes you out of range and you don't respond properly. What is that something, right? We'll get back to that. If that doesn't come back into range, if it comes back, great, you're still healthy.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  If it doesn't come back in, then you have pathophysiology, right? The physiology is operating differently as a result of that. If you keep operating differently for a long time, you'll start to get pathomorphology. The structures will start to change. And oftentimes, it's not till after that that the symptoms occur.

• 41:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  And that's when you go and you get the diagnosis and you've been in a very advanced development of illness that whole time. So obviously, you don't want to wait till symptoms and most people are walking around with a lot of symptoms.

• 42:01Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Which means actually pretty advanced disease relative to what good health would be. And so obviously, the an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure thing.

• 42:09Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I did a podcast recently with someone who was studying this compound that comes from pomegranates and walnuts and berries called allogitanins that gets converted in the gut through the microbiome to a compound called your lithin A that helps recycle old mitochondria. And there's not very many things to do that. So maybe we've kind of evolved with these plants to help us do our body's work. And then there's, you know, the right balance of hormones. It can be hormonal deficiency, it can be... Efficiencies of light and circadian rhythm and clean water and clean air, which are all things we need, and movement, exercise, rest. So it could be like parasympathetic activities,

• 42:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  like meditation that restores our nervous system's function, sleep, adequate sleep, connection, love, meaning, purpose. These are all, you know, belonging. These are all things that we need. And if you, even something as obvious as belonging, if you're lonely, you know, you're, it's like smoking two pack of cigarettes a day in terms of your risk. So you kind of go through that whole list and you can kind of see where people are. And some of those things are just a consequence of our modern world, like the increasing isolation, lack of connections, lack of belonging, lack of being part of a tribe. And it maybe is why we see such an increase in tribalism and divisiveness in society, because people are wanting to be part of something, even if it's bad, you know, like a gang, right? Or it could be AA, or it could be Weight Watchers. It's all still a club. So I think, I think we have

• 43:35Dr. Mark Hyman?

  this kind of interesting moment where we're starting to kind of map out what these things are that impair human resilience and function. And that's really why we call it functional medicine.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  I think everything you're saying is kind of intuitive if someone is not excessively indoctrinated in an alternate thought process and makes sense. But I want to formalize it a little bit. The first thing is that you're mentioning disease having many causes. And that's in distinction to the idea that it has no cause. It's just whatever. We don't understand what it's from.

• 44:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Just random acts of the universe.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yes. Or a single cause, right? In which a single molecule for a single molecular target would make sense.

• 44:12Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah. You eat saturated fat, you get high LDL cholesterol, you get heart disease. It ain't that simple.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Complex causation versus simple causation is a major part of the story, right? And simple causation is usually immediate, right? You're exposed to something, a pathogen, a poison, you're starving, and a disease that correlates to it exactly starts to happen immediately.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Delayed causation, as you mentioned, certain diseases, you can find early signs that were moving in that direction in utero, or even the predispositions in the mother's body that are going to affect the developmental environment to the baby. So acute versus kind of chronic is a major part that we want to make a distinction. The other is single cause versus multifactorial, because you're mentioning this person's dementia was a whole suite of toxins, lead and mercury and whatever, and a whole suite of deficiencies, and a whole suite of maybe subclinical infections, and maybe behavioral patterns, and maybe psychological patterns.

• 45:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I'd be very curious what you think about this, because the entire medical research paradigm has been set up for drug discovery. It's the randomized, double-blind.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  I want to go there. I want to get into reductionist medicine, but before we go there, you already explained kind of subacute toxicity, but subacute infection you didn't get into yet. Most people are like, dysentery is very obvious. But there are things where there is a chronic GI infection that isn't dysentery. Can you talk about that for a moment?

• 45:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, you know, I think, I think we think of infections as something that, you know, come and go. But the truth is, and AIDS, you know, I grew up in the era of AIDS. I went to medical school in that era. I did residency at UCSF, which was the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic, with the gay community there, and it was the number one admitting diagnosis to the hospital where I trained in my residency. Nobody died of HIV infection. People died of all the other bugs that happened to live in us and on us that get unleashed when your immune system isn't working. So whether it's pneumocystis infection of your lungs, or cytomegalovirus, which is a common virus that we all carry, like, you know, people have herpes, and people know this, right?

• 46:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  You have herpes, and you get a cold sore when it's.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  People know it for oral herpes or genital herpes, but they don't know there are more kinds of herpes.

• 46:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  No, there's a lot of kinds of herpes. CMV is herpes, Epstein-Barr's herpes, there's just herpes, the whole family of viruses. But, but people know, oh, I have herpes, which means when I'm stressed, or when it's cold out, or when I'm tired, or when I get a cold, I get a cold sore.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That, people understand that there's this latent infection in their body. But there's so many of those. And they're, they're often hidden, and they're latent, and they're maybe marginally symptomatic, or not symptomatic. Even tick infections can cause all sorts of issues, and be latent, and then they emerge, or. You know, even even with COVID, we're now seeing these, you know, when we're seeing replicating COVID viruses in people who've recovered months or years later in their bodies that are producing ongoing effects that lead to long COVID and persistent disease.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  So so just so people have a sense, what percentage of people have CMV? What percentage of people have Epstein Barr? What percentage of people have some strains of HPV that are part of pathogenic predisposition?

• 47:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's a lot. I mean, I would say everybody's walking around with something, probably. If you look, most people have some Epstein Barr that's kind of hanging around that can emerge and be problematic. Probably half the population has CMV. You know, it's a lot of people.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  There was a there was a study I found interesting that was looking at removed prostate cancers that were removed for cancer and that were biopsied and doing virom assessment on it. And found that the combination of EBV and HPV was present in the vast majority of them.

• 47:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  And so that's not one or the other. It was actually the combination.

• 47:59Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  And obviously, we know HPV causing cervical cancer, causing throat cancer. That's kind of new, though, right? That people really understand that. And H. pylori causing stomach cancer. And obviously, like EBV causing chronic fatigue, but it's pretty reductionist to say EBV causes chronic fatigue. There are people who have EBV who get other diseases, MS or something. There are people who have EBV who never get chronic fatigue. And there are people who have chronic fatigue who have a load of other viruses or pathogens that aren't TBV.

• 48:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, we talked about like infections can cause a myriad of problems, like herpes can lead to increased risk for Alzheimer's. Which, you know, doesn't just cause a cold sore, but maybe something more serious. And that doesn't mean all Alzheimer's is caused by bacteria. But, you know, you look at Rudy Tanzi's work and there, who's an Alzheimer's researcher, and he talks about how there's, they do brain biopsies are finding all these bugs in the brain from the microbiome, from viruses, from other bacteria that may be causing an irritation that leads to the deposition of the amyloid plaque that everybody sees on the microscope, but is only a secondary response to some other. Triggering factor that if you dealt with that triggering factor, you might not actually get Alzheimer's.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  So this is something that Rudy Tanis's work is good at, Breterson's work is good at is Alzheimer's isn't one disease.

• 49:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Right. There's some people have described it as type two diabetes of the brain. Some people as rheumatoid arthritis of the brain. Some people has infection of the brain. These are all true.

• 49:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Different times, which means different treatments. So if you hear that somebody has rheumatoid arthritis or MS or Alzheimer's, you don't instantly know what you're going to do.

• 49:37Dr. Mark Hyman?

  No, I don't. I don't. I know. I know. There's a, there's a group of things I'm going to look at.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Like I'm going to look at things that piss off the immune system, right? Toxins, allergens, microbes, stress, poor diet, right? All the deficiencies of certain things like vitamin D. We know is increasing risk for MS because it's important in neurologic function and immune function. So, you know, I think we, we, we kind of have to come to terms with this framework of multi factorial causes and multimodal treatments. And we just, we just have failed to, to be imaginative in how we do research.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Now, I think we're saying, you're saying two things at once that are important. One is the disease doesn't have one cause. So, but you're saying, think about causal stuff, but the disease doesn't have one cause. So it could seem overwhelming like what? It's just all these things.

• 50:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Rather than just labeling disease and then treating the label with a drug. We call it the name it blame it attainment system. We name the disease and we blame the name for the problem. Then we tame it with the drug. So we say, oh, you're hopeless, hopeless and helpless and sad and depressed. And I know what's wrong with you. You have depression. Well, no, that's just a name we give to people who share those symptoms. It's not the cause of those symptoms. It could be a myriad of things from what you're eating, your microbiome, from nutritional deficiencies like vitamin D or folate or excess of toxins like heavy metals or mercury or gluten, the creative lane inflammation. So there's a lot of reasons why you can have any particular disease. And we just, we have it all wrong. And I think it's a real shift. It's a real shift in thinking.

• 51:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So medicine needs to move from this name and blame it process to what we call thinking and linking, where we start the thinking process. Once we make the diagnosis, we start to try to create an understanding of what are the patterns. The data, one of the story that's being told, how do you take a deeper diagnostic history? How do you do deeper diagnostic laboratory testing and work to kind of see what's at the root cause of everything? And by peeling back that layer, you can start to see emerge a picture of a chronic disease epidemic that it is rooted in things that are caused by, I would say, man. And I think that's something in a way is good news because it means we can have agency over it. It's not something that just falls from the sky that hits us on the head that we get struck with some illness.

• 51:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's actually now something we understand what it's about.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:53Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's not just better diagnosis. Trust me, like the autism epidemic is an example. We went from one in 10,000 when I was born to, you know, one in 130, even if 50% is better diagnostic or 75% is better diagnostic criteria, it's still something's going on.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I think it's worth just going into this a little bit because vitamin D deficiency in terms of acute causation is rickets and not many people have rickets. But there's a pretty big level between you have rickets and you have optimal levels.

• 52:20Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  And the same is true for vitamin C and scurvy or berry berry or whatever. The idea that deficiency means you don't have an acute disease that is killing you in a fast way from it. But that as soon as you're above that, we're fine as opposed to what are optimal levels. Would you speak to that a little bit in terms of also what you find in your practice? And what you find when you take someone above rickets, treat them and treat them and they get better?

• 52:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I think this is just a really important idea that medicine is trying to catch up with. You know, we, we used to talk about having type 2 diabetes and then we said, wait, wait, there's pre-diabetes. And then we talked about having hypertension or high blood pressure. Now there's pre-hypertension and we say, oh, you have an autoimmune disease. Oh, now there's pre-aut immune disease. And the reason it's pre anything is because we're understanding there's consequences, even at levels we thought were quote normal. And so this idea of disease being an on or off phenomena. Is wrong. It's a continuum from mild biochemical imbalances which are barely detectable, which we might be able to now screen for with metabolomic testing and proteomic testing

• 53:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  and, you know, more subtle things that we can measure, to sort of pre-symptomatic, to symptomatic disease symptoms, to finally full-blown disease and death. And so there's a whole long continuum that can start in utero, or even, you know, with your mother's health before she was born, that impacts your health through epigenetics and through the, you know, intrauterine experience and through early childhood influences. And all those things you can start to map out if you listen carefully to somebody's story about what's happening early and pick these things up. And so, you know, the fact that we have these sort of arbitrary cutoffs for, you know, blood sugar, blood pressure, vitamin D, you know, folic acid. I mean, Function Health, which is a company I talked to you

• 54:09Dr. Mark Hyman?

  about, that allows people access to comprehensive lab testing and have their own personal health data set. You know, the reference ranges there are ridiculous for some of the things that they have, like homocysteine, which is a measure of your B vitamin status, very important in methylation and genetic control, neurotransmitter function, detoxification, mood. I mean, a lot of things. Their cutoff level is like, I think, 15 or 16 or something? And any level over 14, according to the literature, increases your risk of dementia by 50%. The optimal level should be six to eight. Same thing with insulin. I think we see insulin levels being reported as normal, anything up to 16 or 18. That's because we're, we have a sick population. And the way we determine what's quote "normal" is basically on a bell

• 54:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  curve in a population. So if the bell curve is shifted to the right or the left because people are sick, you're picking up what's normal in the population, not what's optimal. Because you know the name of the disease. It doesn't mean you know what's wrong with that person.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  And the name of the disease, that person might be missing some of the symptoms that usually go. They might be missing some of the biomarkers. They might have other biomarkers. They might have other symptoms. We just said there's enough of a cluster to meet the diagnostic threshold for insurance to cover it.

• 55:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's right.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  But this person, this unique person who we say has rheumatoid arthritis and this other person we say has rheumatoid arthritis, don't have the same presentation. They don't have the same medical history, but they don't have the same presentation, right? You run enough labs, they have totally different stuff going on in their blood. They have a to- and they have different symptomology.

• 55:37Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  So what does rheumatoid arthritis mean?

• 55:39Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it just, it's just, it's the name we give to a group of people who share certain criteria that have been established that create the diagnosis based on symptoms, morning stiffness, certain joint pattern of inflammation, certain lab tests, but it doesn't tell you anything about why. It could be an entomibohysellic, a parasite that causes it, or it could be gluten that causes it, or-

• 56:02Speaker 01

  But it's almost never one of those, right?

• 56:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right. No, it's usually not, right? It's usually not. You know, we were just chatting earlier before the podcast and I remember this book I read when I was in college by Ivan Illich called Medical Nemesis. And it really influenced me because it talked about the failure of our healthcare system back then and talked about this idea of iatros, which means physician, and genesis means is origin. So the origin of disease being caused by the physician. That's something that I think is sort of underappreciated by most people. Doctors don't intentionally cause people to be ill. They're not bad people. They're well-intentioned. They're trying to right thing, but they're trained in the wrong paradigm.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  This is not actually a critique of doctors. It's not even a critique of hospitals. It's a critique of some systemic mistakes-

• 56:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  -that affect what the doctors are even allowed to do. Sometimes the doctors are really upset about it.

• 56:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  And it affects how the doctors are trained. And so where the critiques we're giving are systemic and-

• 56:53Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Even pretty late-stage things like heart failure and Alzheimer's and autism and-

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Will you tell a couple, just so we can wrap it together, I know you have another place, but tell like a couple of stories about that? Of things that people used to think were totally irreversible and most people still do.

• 57:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I mean, in medical school and throughout my medical training and even in- Continue with medical education and postgraduate training, where you go CME courses. The orthodoxy is pretty rigid about certain beliefs. If you have heart failure, it doesn't go backwards. You can't improve it. If you have dementia, you can't reverse it. If you have type 2 diabetes, it's not reversible. You can manage chronic diseases, which is great for the medical industrial complex because it provides the ability to have a pharmaceutically driven healthcare system that makes huge amounts of profit off of long-term chronic use of medication. What I've seen is surprisingly, when you apply these principles of creating health, which is what functional medicine is, it's not about treating disease. It's trying to understand what is health?

• 57:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  What are the deviations from health? And how do we measure those dysfunctions and the lack of resilience and balance and function in the body and kind of tweak things to correct it? You can actually see reversal of these diseases. Complete remission, reversal of type 2 diabetes. That's, that's easy. That's an easy one. And there's now, that's sort of-

• 58:10Speaker 01

  But that's a humongous deal because like, what is the curve of type 2 diabetes from when you were born to now? How many upstream diseases does that contribute to? And how many people, how many doctors treat it like it's reversible?

• 58:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's the thing that's causing everything. So the phenomenon of insulin resistance, which underlies type 2 diabetes, is causing dementia. For example, your risk of dementia is four times higher if you have all type 2 diabetes. Your risk of heart attacks is dramatically higher. Risk of cancers, many of the most common cancers, breast, pancreatic, ovarian cancer, colon cancer, pancreatic cancer, these are diseases of insulin resistance.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  And to say all those diseases are largely, not perfectly, but largely preventable with some pretty basic stuff-

• 58:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  And oftentimes even reversible is a really important thing. Everybody should know and start to update.

• 58:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, I mean, they're even taking, you know, some, I mean, I've talked to Siddhartha Mukherjee about this, or doing, you know, studies of stage 4 pancreatic cancer using ketogenic diets and seeing remissions in some of these patients, which is almost like heresy in medicine. For medicine- There are no laws. You say, well, evolution, that's a kind of a law. Okay, well, that's one. But how does that apply to human health? What are the laws of biology when it comes to human health? Medicine really hasn't described those. Pierre Laplace, who was an incredible scientist back in the, I don't know, 17th century. He had Laplace's law and all that was the law of physics. But he talked about how you can have a great number of observed phenomena from a small number of general laws.

• 59:39Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And medicine has failed to produce those laws. So instead of having like a few principles that explain everything, we get more and more granular about the diseases we describe. For example, the Diagnostic Manual for Diseases is called ICD-10, the International Classification of Disease, Volume 10 or Version 10. And there's 155,000 diseases. You know, it's gone up from 12,000. We used to have things there like visitation from God. We got rid of those. But, you know, it's basically descriptive. It's phenomenological. It's based on symptoms, not on our understanding of the disease or the pathogenesis of the disease. And so functional medicine, I think, is the first attempt to create a set of principles of laws.

• 1:00:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And the equals MC squared that explains what you're asking, which is what is anthropogenic disease? Are you suffering from exposure too much of something that your body doesn't like, doesn't agree with you? Or are you lacking certain things that your body needs to thrive and be resilient? And so for me, being a functional medicine doctor, it's just a detective work for figuring out what you have too much of or too little of. And it's not just one thing. It's often many things. So you can't just treat one thing, which is what we learned in medicine school, just Occam's razor, just single disease, single drug. That's the best practice of medicine. That's your gold standard. That's what you should shoot for. And that's just unfortunately not how the body works.

• 1:01:01Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's a complex, dynamic system, and it's infinitely unknowable. But you can actually determine from these basic laws and principles how to treat disease, even if you've never seen it before. In The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch, she talks about this idea that following these basic principles, you can treat diseases and be successful, even if you've never seen them. So often people say, well, have you treated this? Have you treated that? Have you fixed this or that? I'm like, Maybe not. I've seen that. I've never seen it, but I know what to do. I know how to get to the bottom of this problem. And so my job is to go through that list, and it's a really short list, and maybe you can add to it. But you know, it's toxins, and these can be environmental toxins, all the petrochemical based toxins, like the forever chemicals,

• 1:01:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  or pesticides, LAs, PCBs, dioxin, flame retardants, the list goes on. It can be elemental toxins, like heavy metals, mercury, lead, arsen, cadmium, and they're, they're buried in the earth. And we've kind of excavated them and industrialized different processes that, that, you know, liberate these things, like coal burning is a great one. They can be biological toxins, right? If you, your, your liver kidneys aren't working, you're going to be pretty sick and die pretty quick. I mean, and, and then there's, there's allergens, which are, can be both environmental allergens, food allergens. Toxins can also be things like mycotoxins, mold toxins, which I put in that category, although it can also be an allergen.

• 1:02:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So many things cross over. It can be, that allergen category can be sensitivities, or imbalance, like, you know, things that you might not think of as a true allergy, like we'll call an Ig allergy, which would be a food sensitivity, which is like gluten, for example. And then there's microbes. So it could be infections that are persistent, like COVID, or Epstein Barr, or CMB, which kind of burden your immune system and lead to all kinds of symptoms. Or it could be a more subclinical, but, but debilitating conditions, like tick infections, or it could be an acute infection. Like, you know, I had an abscess recently in my back. That was an acute infection that almost killed me. So it can be microbes, it can be microbiome. So imbalances or dysfunction in your microbiome, which is we're all suffering from in modern society, as a core driver of disease. And

• 1:03:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

  it can be stress, as a physical stress, or psychological stress. And, and that creates physiological change in your body, or it can be a poor diet.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  This nutrient deficiency that is part of the detox processes compounds on that. So the key is you get a compounding effect of a lot of things that are, some of them happened a year ago. The thing that might have caused it, seemed to have caused it, was actually just a trigger. It was the last step of a causal cascade that took somebody over the threshold.

• 1:03:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  The camel's back, yeah.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think these concepts of delayed causation, as opposed to immediate causation, multifactorial, as opposed to single factor, subacute issues, things that cause no symptomology immediately, but are part of a compounding effect. Also, unique patho-ecology, right? That two people's MS or two people's rheumatoid arthritis are not the same disease.

• 1:04:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  And as opposed to-

• 1:04:06Dr. Mark Hyman?

  But I would say you can have one cause that creates many diseases like mercury or gluten, and you can create, have one disease that has many causes.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yes. I think just maybe speak to that a tiny bit more in terms of when people think cause and effect, there's a reductionist thing where they think billiard ball, one thing caused one effect immediately. And yet, when you're talking about a complex organizational system where, you know, a circuit board, or a computer, or a car, you can take a part out, put another part back in, upgraded, it didn't grow, it's not self-organizing, it was built. And we apply that methodology from clocks to computers to something that grew and self-organized, where each, there's no such thing as a lung outside of a body, or a liver outside of a body, right? So, when you try to separate gastroenterology and oncology and neurology, you get still a bunch of diseases that make no sense.

• 1:04:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it is. It's such a failure of imagination and thinking that we have these specialties in medicine, and we divided up the body into these organs and parts, which is still how we teach medical students. My daughter just finished medical school, and it's just so antiquated. And, you know, there's emerging from the scientific community, not necessarily the medical community, but I would say the scientific community, this emerging paradigm of multi-causality and multimodal treatments. In other words, there's multifactorial causes, many causes for any condition, and there's multimodal treatments that are needed, not just one thing. And, and this, the body is seen to be a network, and a web, where everything is inextricably

• 1:05:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  tied to everything else, and you can't separate all these things out, but you can start to understand how they influence each other and are dynamically acting together to create dysfunction in the body and disease.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  You know, you were mentioning, what does it mean in another podcast to eat not ultra-hybridized? What's the term, ultra-processed?

• 1:05:59Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Ultra-processed food, yeah.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  One of the people who I got to study with when I was young that influenced me the most was Dr. Everett Loomis, Healing Forever. I don't know if you ever came across, he was one of the other early naturopaths, Dr. Christopher and those guys. My family had actually had some quote unquote incurable illnesses that got help through alternative processes that kind of got us in that path. And we actually got to go live with that guy. Dr. Loomis on his healing clinic when I was a kid. And I got to see people coming in in wheelchairs and leaving non-wheelchairs, just having really radical kind of change. It was very old school, it was kind of Ann and Wigmore like stuff. And but it was real interesting to hear, he was also a medical doctor, but like he was eighty five by the

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  time I met him and he had boiled it down to a very simple thing. And he's like, number one principle of nutrition is eat as close to that living ecosystem as you can. Number two is pay subtle attention to how the foods feel in your body.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Everything else, whatever.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Nightshades and ratios of macronutrients and whatever.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  So he had these gardens, these kind of huge gardens and orchards, and he told people, go pick the food you feel called to and eat it right there. Don't even like just stand outside with your feet in the dirt and eat it. And that and that's it. That's your diet while you're here. It's an inpatient thing. And it was amazing how much people got better if the only food they could eat was standing by the tree or the plant that they picked it off of while they ate it. And of course, he emphasized heirloom species and good soil and no pesticide herbicides.

• 1:07:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, you know, there's, there's a guy who kind of looks like you a little bit with the beard. His name's Fred Provenza. He's a someone I got to know recently, who's a professor for years at Utah State University and studied range land ecology and the relationship between plants and the soil and animals and humans. And basically, he wrote a book called Nourishment, What Animals Can Teach Us About Rediscovering Our Nutritional Wisdom. And he basically said that that animals intuitively know what to eat when to keep themselves healthy. So they forage on some major food crops, but then they'll forage if they're left their own devices and there's enough variety of wild plants around on different plants that have different medicinal properties or different nutrients.

• 1:08:20Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And in the book, he talked about this study that was done, I think in the twenties in an orphanage in Canada, where they took kids who really hadn't been exposed to a lot of whatever, junk food or American diet, and they gave them like weird stuff like brain and organs and all kinds of weird food that we wouldn't think would be things we'd want to eat, or the kids would want to eat. And these kids actually were eating completely in harmony with what their bodies needed and seeking out those foods and nutrients and the food that they needed, and were far healthier than kids were control group that were fed a regular diet.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And I was like, that's fascinating that humans have lost their ability to understand their sort of nutritional wisdom and to understand how things affect us.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I want to add one thing, and then we'll do good notes to leave on. You know what a racket is, right? Like a protection racket?

• 1:09:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, racketeer.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Let's say I've got a protection racket where I'm the mob and you're doing business in my turf, so I have some guys go rough you up, and then you're scared of those guys, and there's not enough law enforcement here, then I have some other guys say, hey, we can protect you, but you're gonna have to pay us a certain amount every week, right? But they're from the same group. That's a racket, right? Which is you're manufacturing the demand and then offering the supply. If you make a food system that creates addiction to the people need to keep getting more of it, but then it also makes them need medicine that they wouldn't need otherwise that is profitable, where the side effects of the medicine make them need other medicines, that's a systemic racket.

• 1:09:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It is a racket, for sure. It's like Bayer, they bought Monsanto, which makes glyphosate, which causes lymphoma, and then they make the drugs to treat the lymphoma. That's a racket.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  So that's a direct racket if it's the same company. If they're separate companies that are just all owned by the major private equity or whatever, it's a systemic racket. Think about, just from a logical perspective, I'm trying to solve a problem. First thing I want to ask is, did we always have that problem? No, no, no, it's a new problem. Oh, when we didn't have it, what was happening then? Let's reverse something. The first thing should be, if it's a new problem that was caused by something, reverse the cause. How often in medicine do we do that? Anything that looks like a racket should be investigated. Anything that looks like, oh, there's a problem, let's not look at what the root causes were, let's not look at when we didn't have it. Let's say that we got this problem forever now and we can't possibly not have it when we didn't have it for most of human history.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Then let's come up with a new thing that we can make money on that will then itself cause new problems that we will also cause a new solution for. It will cause new problems. That is a systemic exponentially escalating racket.

• 1:10:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  This is not a good method of problem solving. This is solving problems in a way that doesn't solve the cause. It symptomatically addresses it and makes worse problems in the process. Let's start actually trying to solve problems. What is the cause? How do we undo the cause?

• 1:10:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And how do we get people incentivized to do that? Cause right now everything's flipped.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Everyone is actually incentivized if they pay attention to we're talking about your own health.

• 1:11:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, that's that's true. I mean, like the guy who's running Coca-Cola or Bear is not necessarily thinking about these things.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  I remember talking to someone who's the CEO of Pepsi once and they said they were thinking about categorizing it as an entertainment company. Because they're like, we know this is not food. This is something people do for fun. And it's like, Jesus. What good does this thing do? Well, it causes diabetes and increases likelihood for Alzheimer's and everybody. But what real good does it do? Well, it'll cause addiction. The world would be better if that company didn't exist. Any company where the world would be better if it didn't exist, we should figure out how to have it not exist.

• 1:11:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  The number of companies that fit in that category are high.

• 1:11:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, that's a problem.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Now, derealization. Derealization is this very serious thing that happens when you someone goes through a severe trauma where like nothing feels real. I would say almost everybody I know is in some degree of derealization because and here's how I can tell. If I tell somebody something about, it doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's about healthcare or whether it's about the increasing likelihood towards World War III or AI, whatever. It doesn't matter what it is, the environment. Their tomorrow will be identical. They cannot be moved by real information about the real world they're in. They are derealized. The real world does not matter to them. And they're like, no new information could change my life.

• 1:12:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Well, you're being a doomer. Wait, no, the Mongols are coming. If the Mongols are coming, do you want to know? Oh, I can't do anything. Did you try?

• 1:12:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Most people don't. They're just so.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  So I want to just say, let's break the out of ubiquitous derealization and learned helplessness. And say, problems that didn't used to exist that we caused, we can solve. Your own health and your parents and your children are an incentive. But you just have to act like reality is real and reality matters and your life matters. As opposed to the nihilism of like, I can't do anything. I've already given up on my life mattering.

• 1:12:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's hard. And the, and the problem is that so many of people are not just derealized because of the trauma, psychological trauma of our society, but also the, the, the way in which our diet and lifestyle and environment affects our cognitive function and brain and mood. So it's sort of a double problem because you're sort of stuck.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  If you look at the American Revolution and the condition of the people who were involved in the American Revolution. One, they were doing labor jobs, using a pitchfork all day, translates to a much harder body that can do rebellion and whatever. But also they weren't obese. They weren't on opiates and benzos and they didn't doom scroll. I have found that I don't care how outraged someone is or how horrified or how depressed. That emotion will not make it through 15 minutes of doom scrolling. They will actually forget they ever heard the thing. They'll forget all the emotion because in that 15 minutes, I see something that makes me excited and something that makes me feel left out. And something that makes me feel belonging and something that makes me horny and something that makes me scared and something that makes me outraged and then something that's kind of funny.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  And I just flushed my entire system of continuity. Now I can go back to my life exactly the way it was. A small number of people ensure that they don't do that. So they can actually work on controlling things at scale.

• 1:14:08Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  And everybody else lets them.

• 1:14:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, how do we have more agency? That's it. That's what you're talking about is, is creating a society where there are people feel agency in that their actions, that their thoughts, that their voice matters.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  So find all the things that damage your agency and get them out of your life. Take the social media apps off your phone, even if you're going to still have it, have to do it on the computer. Don't have a, don't have it in your goddamn pocket all the time. Just take them off your phone. If you're on psych meds, go to a Cleveland clinic, go to an integrative doc who can see if maybe there's a better solution for you. I'm not telling people get off their psych meds. I'm saying, go talk to a doctor.

• 1:14:43Dr. Mark Hyman?

  There's ways to do it.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Talk to someone who knows other possibilities because you're not going to be self-regulating or think well or whatever while you're intentionally altering your neurochemistry. Now, I will say, I know people high up in most of the major news companies, they are not news, not on the right, not on the left.

• 1:15:02Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's not news.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  No, it's not news.

• 1:15:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Propaganda.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yes, it is information more. I can criticize the most Airedye journals because, well, they'll lie with facts, but they cherry pick their facts. They lay cough frame them in a particular way. So you either call it an illegal alien or an undocumented migrant. It means the exact same thing, but you have a totally different emotional valence. You cherry pick your facts and you say this thing is getting better when it's actually getting worse, but you're treating the symptoms or whatever it is. Who puts narratives out there? Again, it takes a lot of money to fund research, takes a lot of money to put a narrative out there. Typically, capital streams associated with goals that support those capital streams or the political institutions and agendas that support the capital streams put out narratives that support what they do. So you should understand, whenever you're watching a piece of news or reading something, what you should be thinking about is, this tells me what some people want other people to believe.

• 1:15:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, not what's actually true. Someone gave me a link to a website, I forget what it's called, which basically had the same news item, but reported from the right and the left and then the middle. And it was totally different stories.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  To just realize, you cannot let someone spoon feed you your narrative on what is true. Cannot. No one has the right incentive here. So you have to work at it a little bit. But you can't have a meaningful life devoid from understanding what's real. Because to make meaningful choices, they have to be in relationship to reality.

• 1:16:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And I think what you said was really important is to take away the things from your life that interrupt your ability to have agency. And whether it's the food you're eating, the news you're watching, the social media scrolling, the friends you hang out with, the things you care about, like, you know, we need to sort of have more agency.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  As you see in your clinic every day, it's all changeable. And it's changeable acutely for each person, behaviors they can take, and it's changeable at scale for everybody with behaviors we can take to do systemic changes.

• 1:16:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Thank you. That is, that's a good point to end on. We each can do it for ourselves and we have to do it systemically. And I think I'm working on both ends of the problem. So are you. So thank you.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  You are. And I really hope that.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Function can bring a lot of these concepts and tools to everybody because they have been very niche and they shouldn't be. And I love that you're making it not only medicine for the rich, but like medicine that everybody can afford. It's super important. And then I hope the policy work can really gain some success and gain success that can keep working across administrations because science has nothing to do with political parody. And

• 1:17:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's the plan. That's the plan. That's the plan. And for those who want to learn more about Daniel's work, look at the Consilience Project, it's consilienceproject.org. We'll put links in the show notes. We'll put links to a lot of references we talked about today. This has been an incredible conversation and I feel like we could talk for another 10 hours and still keep going. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Likewise. Thank you, my friend.

• 1:17:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 1:18:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

  If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. Don't forget, there's a way to listen completely ad-free. With Hyman Plus on Apple Podcasts, you can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap Try Free to start your seven-day free trial. You can find me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to The Dr. Hyman Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr. Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on The Dr. Hyman Show. Separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am Chief Medical Officer.

• 1:19:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

  This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness Center at UltraWellnessCenter.com, and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public.

• 1:19:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible. Thanks so much again for listening.