Pod Insights The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett Most Replayed Moment: The Hidden Organ That Controls Exactly How You Age! About this episode Dr Gabrielle Lyon is a physician, author, and founder of the Muscle-Centric Medicine movement, highlighting the most important organ for long-term health and longevity.
In today’s moment, she unpacks the key to ageing well, from brain health and metabolism to fertility, energy, and independence later in life. Dr Lyon reveals why it’s not just about looking good, but about protecting the body from decline. The standards you set today could decide the version of you that exists 30 years from now.
Listen to the full episode here!
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Gabrielle: https://drgabriellelyon.com/
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Steven Bartlett? Are there small parts of your protocol that people can implement? You talked there about not sitting. You know, you said weighted vest.
0:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:12 Steven Bartlett? Are there anything else that we can do that might help us build muscle mass without having to go to the gym?
0:18 Speaker 01 Yes.
0:18 Steven Bartlett? What are the key things you think about there?
0:20 Speaker 01 If you can take a call, walking or rucking, you can load up weight. It is extremely easy to do and you can do it slowly. Whether you start with, you could start with seven pounds. I have a five pound weight vest. I have a seven pound weight vest, 20, and then from there you can load up weight. So you can build up over time. People should be doing that. It is effective and easy. Everyone can do that. People are taking calls. You don't have to do Zoom call. Why not? Get on the phone, get moving. Human body will like to sit, right?
0:59 Speaker 01 As opposed to be forced to move, but you become... It's almost like a rote activity. If you are someone who is sedentary, it becomes easier to become sedentary and stay sedentary. It requires friction to change. You can mitigate some of that friction by incorporating movement into your life. For example, walking with a weighted vest, easy. Training with your kids. People will say, I don't have time. I'm so busy. Pick up your kids after school. We, instead of go and play video games, we do a push-up challenge or a dance party in our... Have you ever heard of Texas Hold'em?
1:42 Steven Bartlett? The poker game?
1:43 Speaker 01 No, the dance. Have you ever seen this? Beyonce made an amazing song called Texas Hold'em and...
1:50 Steven Bartlett? I thought she was talking about poker.
1:51 Speaker 01 She might be, but there is a line dance associated with that. There are a million fun ways to do something. We just have become accustomed to doing less. And we'll dance, we'll do whatever, push-ups, physical challenges, playing outside, get the Nerf guns, whatever it is. Easy. I mean, it couldn't get easier than that.
2:13 Steven Bartlett? What do you think a good goal is to have? What kind of goal? Because I was, I'd said this before, but there's a time in my life when my goals were very superficial. And they were anchored to a date. What are the best kind of goals that we should set ourselves as it relates to our health?
2:30 Speaker 01 I don't think we should set goals.
2:31 Steven Bartlett? No goals?
2:32 Speaker 01 I think we should set standards.
2:34 Steven Bartlett? OK.
2:35 Speaker 01 When you set a goal, you can either reach that goal or not. But if you set a standard, then you will always keep your standard. And that standard will allow you to reach a goal. But the standard won't change. For example, the standard is, you wake up and you set whatever that is. You train every day. For me, I train three days a week, depending on how intense that training was. On Saturday, I might do a fourth day of training. And on Sunday, I forgot to tell you this, we do a group workout. My standard is physical activity has defined moments. And that is my standard, even if I'm traveling. I know exactly what that's going to be before I get to the hotel. That is the standard of physical activity. I don't have to think about a goal.
3:20 Speaker 01 I don't have to have a goal of, am I going to hit that or not? Because I know that those are things that I won't fall short of. My standard is my nutrition plan. I have between 110 to 120 grams of protein. I have between 110 to 120 grams of carbs. I know what that looks like. That is my standard. I don't deviate from that.
3:41 Steven Bartlett? And what are you struggling with as it relates to your own advice?
3:45 Speaker 01 Sleep.
3:46 Steven Bartlett? You're struggling with sleep?
3:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:48 Steven Bartlett? Is that because of the two little kids?
3:50 Speaker 01 It is. Because I have to make a choice. Am I going to spend time uninterrupted and undivided with them? Or am I going to do work?
4:01 Speaker 01 And my choice is I spend time with them. And then when they go to sleep, I work another two to three hours.
4:10 Speaker 01 And I should probably do a better job and know that eventually everything is going to get done. But I set standards.
4:20 Steven Bartlett? Do you find it difficult? You know, because people always talk about not being able to have everything at once. This is what a lot of women have said to me. They said there was a time where we were sold this dream that you could have everything.
4:30 Speaker 01 You can.
4:32 Steven Bartlett? You can?
4:32 Speaker 01 I think so.
4:33 Steven Bartlett? You must see a lot of excuses in people.
4:36 Speaker 01 I do, I do. Because it's hard to face the truth.
4:40 Steven Bartlett? And what's the truth?
4:41 Speaker 01 What is the truth? The truth is, are you doing this? Or are you not doing this? Because of some kind of internal choice? There has to be some truth telling. And sometimes that truth is uncomfortable. You can get the job done. There might be things that you have to sacrifice. But the job, the thing that you want, the outcome that you want, the standard that you set, it can be done.
5:14 Speaker 01 It can be done. It's, you tell yourself, you can't do it. I mean, I have a three and a five year old. Do you know what kind of chaos ensues at my house?
5:26 Speaker 01 You should come over and I guarantee you, you will hold off having any kind of children for at least five years. But, nothing is perfect. It can't ever, everything cannot be curated. Do I still get my training in? Do I still get my nutrition in? Am I anything special? I am not. But my discipline is. I am very disciplined.
5:45 Steven Bartlett? Have you always been?
5:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
5:47 Steven Bartlett? A lot of people aren't and they haven't ever been.
5:50 Speaker 01 It's much more difficult to not be disciplined. The reason I am disciplined is to be able to manage my life.
5:58 Steven Bartlett? How do I get your discipline?
6:00 Speaker 01 You execute. You don't overthink it. There's nothing to think about. What do you want?
6:04 Steven Bartlett? I want to be like you.
6:05 Speaker 01 No, what do you want? Where are you falling short?
6:08 Steven Bartlett? I want to be like you.
6:11 Speaker 01 You would not be nearly as successful if you were undisciplined. You have to be disciplined.
6:16 Steven Bartlett? I'm just trying to embody the audience. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to think through all the bullshit that people tell themselves. And we all tell ourselves bullshit in various aspects of our life. If we're not telling ourselves bullshit as it relates to like exercise, it's something else. It's our relationships, it's playing. And we will, and so many people struggle with personal responsibility. Cause if I was to post, if you were to post, or I was to post anything on my story that you just said in the last sort of five minutes.
6:38 Speaker 01 They would be very offended.
6:39 Steven Bartlett? Yeah, and there'd be, well, not everybody, there's a small group of like.
6:42 Speaker 01 So are they gonna edit this out?
6:43 Steven Bartlett? No, no, no.
6:43 Speaker 01 Oh, no, don't, listen, don't send crazy people after me.
6:46 Steven Bartlett? No, we will, but um, it's like the what aboutery gang. And the what aboutery gang, you could say anything and they'll say, yeah, but what about?
6:52 Speaker 01 Totally.
6:52 Steven Bartlett? Yeah, but what about? And I understand some people have, they have legitimate exceptions to rules.
6:57 Speaker 01 The truth is, it is very difficult to do what I do. I run three different businesses. I take care of some of the most incredible humans on the planet.
7:08 Speaker 01 I have my own podcast. I'm writing two more books and I don't have full time help. I'm a mom.
7:16 Speaker 01 The one thing I don't find is I don't find excuses. I figure out ways to get it done because if it matters, you find ways to get it done. You know, if I were to say, and this is an extreme example, but let's say I said to someone who, I'll just make this up, loved cupcakes. I said, if you eat another cupcake, then something catastrophic is going to happen to your dog. Do you think that they would ever touch another cupcake?
7:51 Steven Bartlett? No.
7:51 Speaker 01 Not in a second, just like that. So the consequence is just not meaningful enough. When you find a meaningful consequence and you understand the consequence of your actions in that moment, it becomes easy.
8:05 Steven Bartlett? And this goes to what we were saying about the discipline and the why part of that equation. You, you referred to it as consequence. Like why does this matter to you is the central part of the equation. And deep in your head somewhere, there's, you're so clear on why this matters.
8:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:19 Steven Bartlett? Because you've, you've seen the research, you've studied it, you've seen the consequence of this.
8:22 Speaker 01 I've seen the end result.
8:23 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
8:24 Speaker 01 I've seen the end result. At the end of the day, we are all, health and age and death, these things, nobody's getting out of them. Like nobody.
8:37 Steven Bartlett? So if I follow your protocols for the next thirty years,
8:43 Steven Bartlett? yeah, then I'd be sixty years old, I'd be sixty one years old. Can you describe to me what you think my life will look like as a sixty one year old?
8:51 Speaker 01 I can.
8:51 Steven Bartlett? Versus if I just sit in this chair and eat processed foods and do zero resistance training for the next thirty years? Can you describe the two different Stevens? We'll call it, we'll call one sedentary Steve and we'll call one Dr. Lion Steve.
9:07 Speaker 01 Okay. Let's start with sedentary Steve.
9:14 Speaker 01 I will say you're thirty, so right now you're sedentary. Alzheimer's disease is likely beginning. Cardiovascular disease is likely beginning.
9:25 Steven Bartlett? Right now at thirty?
9:26 Speaker 01 That's right. Remember, these diseases that we believe are diseases of aging
9:33 Speaker 01 are at their core and at their root in part due to the health of skeletal muscle. The only organ system that you have direct voluntary control over. That's it. I cannot say, Stephen, I want your heart to beat at forty five beats per minute. Go.
9:56 Speaker 01 I cannot control. You might be able to control your respiration, but you can't physically contract your diaphragm. Go ahead, contract.
10:06 Speaker 01 Okay. Maybe. It's a muscle.
10:11 Speaker 01 Skeletal muscle is the only organ system that you have voluntary control over. That's it. Now, if you decide to not hear what I am saying, then if you are someone who has a genetic propensity, maybe you have, I don't know, when you overeat, you get high triglycerides or you choose not to exercise. We will start to deteriorate your brain because contracting skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ. Not only does exercise increase blood flow to your brain. I just wrote a narrative review with a colleague of mine, Luisa Nicola, amazing.
10:57 Speaker 01 We looked at the influence of resistance training and brain function. I cannot restore your brain, but I'd love to be able to prevent from the connections
11:10 Speaker 01 to become weaker and weaker and weaker. So you decide not to exercise. I can do nothing for your brain. Eventually, you might forget, I don't know, your neighbor's name, your kid's name, your, um, anything, what you did, any meaningful memory. If we don't address your brain now, then the potential outcome is clear, right? Two thirds of Alzheimer's, the majority of dementia is Alzheimer's dementia, which plays a role in metabolic regulation. Type 3 diabetes is the brain.
11:53 Speaker 01 If your skeletal muscle is unhealthy, you are likely having not only skeletal muscle insulin resistance, but brain insulin resistance. No such thing. You cannot be sedentary and be healthy. So that will begin now. The other thing is your cardiovascular activity can't help, can't help you there. Not getting increase in blood flow, you're not moving your cardiovascular health the way that it should, your lung capacity, your cardiovascular capacity. You're probably going to be extremely winded walking upstairs. It might take so much effort for you to get up, you might not even be able to fully
12:34 Speaker 01 stand up and sit down from your chair multiple times. You might struggle with that.
12:40 Speaker 01 If I said, Stephen, I need you to go to grab something out of the car for me, you would probably say, oh, man, hey, doc, that's going to take a lot of effort. I, I, I'm not sure, I'm not sure I could even grab that, I don't know, 15 pound grocery bag.
12:56 Speaker 01 You likely have central obesity, probably have sleep apnea, which means you're further deteriorating both your brain and your metabolic health. I would just throw in there, you haven't trained your entire life, your testosterone is probably low. And maybe throughout your lifespan, who knows? Maybe you have challenges with fertility because your sperm quality isn't as good as it could have been if you were training and eating well. Are you convinced yet?
13:25 Steven Bartlett? So there's a link between my fertility for men and women and my muscle mass?
13:29 Speaker 01 There is a link between exercise, training, metabolic health, and definitely fertility. I think we are going to see more and more literature come out on this, muscle mass and fertility. By the time you're 60, you'll definitely have more.
13:52 Steven Bartlett? Is there a link between polycystic ovary syndrome and muscle mass? You talk about that, I think, in chapter two of the book.
13:57 Speaker 01 I do. There is insulin resistance. When you think about skeletal muscle and insulin resistance, skeletal muscle makes up 40% of your body weight or so, depending. For me, it might be less. For you, it might be more. When skeletal muscle becomes insulin resistant, again, which means insulin is a peptide hormone that is released from the pancreas, you require insulin to move glucose out of the bloodstream into cells. When you exercise, you do not require insulin to move blood glucose out of the bloodstream into skeletal muscle tissue. It can be insulin independent.
14:40 Speaker 01 Polycystic ovarian syndrome is multifactorial. There is a component of polycystic ovarian syndrome that is related to skeletal muscle insulin resistance. Once an individual manages their skeletal muscle mass, again, there's a various number of reasons as to why someone would have it. But in part, addressing skeletal muscle mass and skeletal muscle insulin resistance can help resolve polycystic ovarian syndrome in certain cases.
15:09 Steven Bartlett? I was reading on the subject of PCOS and fertility. I was reading a study by Earth, which was done at Harvard, that found that men who reported to frequently lift heavy weights and objects at work had a 46% higher sperm concentration and a 44% higher total sperm count compared to those with less physical jobs. So you're telling me if I want to up my sperm count and have a baby.
15:33 Speaker 01 And health.
15:34 Steven Bartlett? I should start lifting some weights?
15:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:38 Steven Bartlett? I was thinking about the 61-year-old guy that listens to Dr. Lyon's Protocols.
15:42 Speaker 01 But also, let's say we didn't talk about what would happen if you listened.
15:47 Steven Bartlett? Yeah, which is what I'm saying. So the guy that listened. So the 61-year-old Steve Bartlett that listens to your protocols.
15:52 Speaker 01 Holy God, the guy's a beast. He's now taken over the world.
15:57 Speaker 01 Because.
15:58 Steven Bartlett? Does he have a six-pack?
15:59 Speaker 01 Of course he does.
16:00 Steven Bartlett? Really, at 61?
16:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
16:01 Steven Bartlett? Is it possible?
16:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
16:05 Steven Bartlett? What's the healthiest, oldest person you've ever seen?
16:08 Speaker 01 My dad.
16:09 Steven Bartlett? Really?
16:10 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh. He's 74. He could put on a little more muscle.
16:13 Steven Bartlett? Okay.
16:14 Speaker 01 His testosterone is like 800. He's not any hormone replacement. He has been following what I've been telling him, unfortunately for him, because I'm his daughter. He's been listening to this message. I'm just sitting here with you, but we are talking about over 10 years of talking about this, of seeing this with patients and people.
16:37 Speaker 01 He has amazing hemoglobin A1C, fasting blood sugar. Cholesterol is in check. I mean, he is strong. He is capable.
16:49 Speaker 01 He's 74.
16:52 Steven Bartlett? What is the most important thing that we haven't talked about, Dr. Lyon?
16:57 Speaker 01 I would say that nobody is getting out of this alive. And it's all going to come down to choices. Choices for how we execute. Our present choices will determine our outcomes. And it is not difficult. It's not complex. You have to prioritize skeletal muscle. This is the organ of longevity. With this physical framework comes mental strength.
17:28 Speaker 01 And what's most important about this isn't for us now. Like, this is great, you can do it. But it provides hope and an example for our children. That, them, those people, the little ones, that is who I am truly worried about. Because we have normalized supersizing everything, including ourselves.
17:53 Speaker 01 We have more electronics than ever before. We are more disconnected from people. People will say the internet has done a great job at connecting. Face-to-face conversations, connection is huge.
18:07 Speaker 01 The most important is our youth and how we raise them and the messages that we give them. Because they are our responsibility. And if we cannot advocate for our own health, whatever those limitations are, whether it's personal or worthy, it is our responsibility to do a much better job so that we not tell them, but we show them the way forward.
18:30 Steven Bartlett? And what's the most important subject in your book that we haven't covered? Forever Strong: A New Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well. How to Reboot Your Body, To Burn Fat, Fight Heart Disease, Reverse Diabetes, Stay Sharp, Build Muscle, and Boost Energy.
18:45 Speaker 01 I mean, we talked about dietary protein. We talked about how that potentially can be controversial for some people.
18:55 Speaker 01 We discussed carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are earned through activity. If someone is metabolically unhealthy, they have to understand that potentially starting with 100 grams and titrating up or down depending on their activity level is important.
19:09 Steven Bartlett? How quickly do I lose muscle?
19:12 Speaker 01 If you were in the ICU, you could lose 2% of your muscle mass in a day.
19:17 Steven Bartlett? Ugh, God, what?
19:19 Speaker 01 If you are in a highly catabolic state, on bedrest, you will lose muscle rapidly. Depending on your age, within seven days, you could lose, if you're young and healthy, two pounds of skeletal muscle mass.
19:36 Steven Bartlett? Because I'm thinking, if I go to the gym today and I did my biceps and I really smashed it, how long before those gains were lost?
19:45 Speaker 01 I would give you, you'll lose strength and then mass.
19:49 Speaker 01 You will lose it rapidly. Seven days of bedrest, you will lose it.
19:55 Speaker 01 But it will return if you've been well-trained.
19:59 Steven Bartlett? And it will return faster the second time than it did the first time, right? People talk about muscle memory a lot.
20:04 Speaker 01 That is a interesting perspective. Yes, if you are well-trained, will it return? Yes. It also depends on how long you have been untrained for. It also will depend on how highly catabolic you are. For example, if someone had cancer, they're in a highly catabolic state, their body is breaking down. Skeletal muscle mass will improve their survivability. If someone goes on bedrest, you will lose muscle mass and strength extremely rapidly.
20:35 Speaker 01 Now, will you able to re-return insulin sensitivity? Yes. If you decided to just begin basic activities of living and not exercising, you will not be able to recover that muscle. Getting out of the hospital, just doing basic things, will not be enough. And now, as you can imagine, that happens to people.
21:01 Steven Bartlett? I can imagine, yeah. And I go through periods in my life where, for whatever reason, I have to be a bit more sedentary.
21:09 Steven Bartlett? Things like filming TV shows. I film the show called Dragon's Den, where we basically sit in a room for 10 hours a day. It's like Shark Tank here. And whenever I go through that season of life, it's very difficult. I always see this correlation between how much activity I've been doing and how much motivation I have. And so if I've been sat down and not been exercising for a while, I find it harder to find the motivation to go again, and it's this kind of vicious downward spiral.
21:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, one thing that we didn't talk about is how skeletal muscle mass functions as an endocrine organ.
21:37 Steven Bartlett? What's an endocrine organ?
21:38 Speaker 01 An endocrine organ is something that produces hormones that act systemically, locally, and there's an inter-organ connection. When you exercise based on intensity and duration, you release myokines. Myokines like interleukin-6 or interleukin-15. These are what people typically think of cytokines that are released from inflammatory cells or macrophages. But when you contract skeletal muscle in a meaningful way, based on the intensity and duration, you release myokines from skeletal muscle that interface with your brain. They affect mood, they affect neurogenesis. It also affects your liver and your kidney. There's this interorgan crosstalk. You know, we talked about skeletal muscle,
22:23 Speaker 01 about how important it is from a metabolic perspective, as a body armor perspective, but also as this endocrine organ that can affect mood because of the components that it's releasing. And that is fascinating. It can counterbalance inflammation based on the activity, duration, and intensity.
22:44 Steven Bartlett? So that explains why if I've not been moving, I don't feel as good in terms of motivation. And I feel more fatigued when I've done less exercise over a long period of time.
22:53 Speaker 01 I mean, yes. And it doesn't take much to maintain what you have. For example, if you could during those days, do you have to be, so you're shooting for 10 hours? You don't have breaks?
23:04 Steven Bartlett? We have lunch break.
23:06 Speaker 01 You should be training on that lunch break. I don't care how tired you are.
23:08 Steven Bartlett? I'm hungry.
23:10 Speaker 01 Then you should eat in 10 minutes and get to training.
23:14 Steven Bartlett? It's a good point, and you're totally right.
23:15 Speaker 01 Pushups, have a weighted vest, do whatever you have to. You will feel exponentially better. And also, this is predictable. So here is an example. You know it's coming, right? You know that you'll be filming this for 10 hours a day.
23:30 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
23:31 Speaker 01 What is your strategy to execute in a way that is effective and meaningful?
23:35 Steven Bartlett? And that's really it, isn't it? It's about forward planning.
23:37 Speaker 01 Yeah. You know it's coming. It's predictable. It's also predictable how you're going to feel afterwards. And then you are going to have to account for how you feel. And then you are going to have to deal with the repercussions of now not being motivated, now having to address your diet, and now probably feeling a little bit more down than you would have. We totally know it's coming.
23:57 Steven Bartlett? It's one of the big things I've just realized as you're talking is I don't schedule my workouts. So my workouts are kind of this residual beneficiary, i.e. they get whatever time's left over in the day, which might mean last night was super late. It was almost at midnight. And then today, I've got a flight after this. So it's a 10-hour flight. So it's like. But I could quite easily, I have the fortune and privilege of being able to ask my assistant to change something. So I can say, while you schedule everything else, also schedule an hour for me to train. But I think everyone could probably do that. I would, I wonder how many people schedule their workouts?
24:31 Speaker 01 Everybody who is, you show me your habits and I will tell you how successful you will be able to continue to be in the long run.
24:40 Steven Bartlett? You can probably look at someone's calendar and figure out what they're gonna look like in 10 years' time.
24:43 Speaker 01 I definitely can. But I will say that there's this privilege of youth and then there becomes a tipping point. Yes, you should be scheduling those things. You can, and let's say you say to me, Gabrielle, I don't have time to do it. You are not, you could schedule three days a week. You know that we're filming all day. You know that you're doing these things. That is a non-negotiable because you're setting a standard. You set a standard for everything in here and everything else you do. Nothing is going to be more critical for your impact than being able to manage your health. Because again, there comes a point in time where it's a very predictable turning point, inflection point.
25:26 Steven Bartlett? If we get together again, and I don't know, say it was 30 years from now, and I say to you, and you've been successful over the next 30 years, however you define that, what happened?
25:38 Speaker 01 We've completely changed the conversation. We are no longer at nauseam talking about obesity. That is a side component. We are focused on physical and mental strength. We are focused on understanding that it is a muscle problem and a problem and a solution that we can do something about. Obesity is an afterthought.
26:00 Steven Bartlett? And personally?
26:02 Speaker 01 My kids have done amazing and they're happy and adjusted and can withstand whatever, whatever comes their way. And my husband will be picking up his socks.
26:15 Steven Bartlett? What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.
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