E28: Tobi Pearce - £100m in Revenue Aged 27

In this weeks episode of The Diary of a CEO, I sat down with Tobi Pearce, the CEO of SWEAT. Tobi describes SWEAT as the world’s biggest online digital gym, offering help and guidance for women with their fitness choices and health goals. Australian-born... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hello. My guest this week is Tobi Pearce. And for those of you that don't know Toby, he's the CEO of Sweat. Tobi describes Sweat as the world's biggest online digital gym. It's a digital empire that offers fitness and health guidance for women. Toby's start to life was unconventional, to say the least. Choosing to leave home at just 16 years old due to family and personal issues, he set off in life to become a self-made entrepreneur. He started off by working in a music shop before turning to personal training. And this is where he met his now fiancee Kayla. Kayla, if you don't know, is known for being one of the world's biggest online fitness influencers.

• 0:54Steven Bartlett?

  Their business was born in 2014 and through Sweat, they're already generating hundreds of millions in revenue. They have a dedicated community of more than 20 million women using their products all around the world. And the impact they've had on health and fitness is astronomical. Toby is smart, he's funny, direct, honest, driven, pragmatic. Toby is an exception. He thinks differently. He's the type of person you would bet on no matter what they decided to do. This is one of those conversations where I walked away smarter, more motivated and more inspired. And I know and I hope that you will too. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:55Steven Bartlett?

  I don't really have questions as such, Toby, but I wanted to thank you for joining me first and foremost. Thanks for having me, right? Making the time. I know you're a very, very busy man. I read through your story and I was quite, and this is just my own opinion, I was quite shocked. I was shocked at the start you had in life and also how high you then managed to climb from that start. Because I think if people read what I read, they would assume someone that has that start to life would then...

• 2:26Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe go through life feeling sorry for themselves. You know, and we see that a lot, right? So I guess the first place to start is, how was your start to life? Can you talk about your childhood?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit, sure. I mean, so, um, yeah, probably late on in high school. Yeah, I mean, uh, I kind of made the decision to leave home. So I was kind of living by myself from sort of 16 years old. Um, yeah, definitely, um, yeah, which complicates things, I think.

• 2:52Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you leave home?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Just, I mean, like, rough family environment, I think, to a degree. But I think, yeah, and also, and this would probably kind of talk a little bit to, you know, my, I think, independence and problem solving or whatever. Like, I felt like I was always kind of in control of my destiny. And so at a, at a point, you know, when I was very, very young, I was kind of like, well, you know, I'm not probably really that happy, you know, here now. But I think that I can control the outcome of that.

• 3:14Steven Bartlett?

  What, so I had, sorry to interject, but that, for me, that point is really, really important because for whatever reason, and I've talked about this on this podcast before, I felt the same way. I, I did not know the future.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25Steven Bartlett?

  But for some reason, I was arrogant enough to think that I'd be completely fine. Well, and I've, over the years, managed to kind of like, look back and try and figure out why that was. But for you, why at 16 years old did you think you could control your own destiny?

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, yeah, and perhaps, yeah, well, maybe, maybe it's a little bit of shared arrogance or it's the confidence. I mean, however you want to define it, um, yeah, and perhaps probably even a little bit of naivety, you know, I think at a young age. But I think that, you know, to be honest, I think, um, you know, wh- wh- what is an entrepreneur if not a problem solver? You know, right? And so I think that, you know, literally even from the age of sort of like seven, eight, nine years old, like I was always a really, you know, kind of great problem solver. And I also not only was good at it, but I actually really enjoyed it. Um, you know, so not that I think that any kind of teenager really enjoys, you know, the thought of leaving home. Yeah, but I was just kind of very confident that, you know, that I can kind of keep myself up on my own two feet. I'll figure out a way to, you know, get a job. I'll figure out a way to get through university and make a life for myself.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And I think, yeah, if anything, um, yeah, that was like the, the, the challenge of succeeding was almost probably the largest motivator. Um, yeah, like, so like, I've, you know, I've gone through adversity, it's like, but I'll come out the other side. Yeah, it'll be fine, but like, where am I going to be and how do I get there? Like, that's pretty stimulating challenge. For me, I think so. Did you have brothers and sisters? Um, yeah, one sister, yeah. Um, but uh, again, probably not, yeah, probably not really the, you know, the strongest relationship. But I think even from a very young age, like, I was kind of quite introverted and, you know, like to myself and kept to myself. So, yeah. And was your relationship with your parents close? Oh, I think, yeah, probably with my dad, pretty good. Yeah, definitely for sure. Um, but I think, um,

• 5:00Speaker 01

  you know, stuff that was happening in and around my family. And yeah, and yeah, totally respect that. This is probably a little different like for a teenager, but I was kind of just not really that patient with it. Um, yeah, and um, and I think as well, like, to be honest, even even if that stuff had not been happening, like, I was always sort of the person that, to be honest, I probably would have left shortly after anyway. You know, like, I was always like, I've got to go on and do something, you know? Um, yeah, so you you might have read online as well, like, you know, I I was, yeah, in high school, kind of got asked to leave because I was wasn't really doing much work at school. And then, yeah, eventually kind of in in Australia, you consider, um, you know, a a stat test, which is called a stat test to get into university, basically, but tested pretty good, got into uni and then just picked myself up and kind of went, you know?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't have anyone telling me to go to university or like, you know, forcing me or paying for it. I just wanted to learn. Yeah, and because I knew that basically in order to succeed in life at anything, you know, like a fundamental part of that is learning and working hard. You know, so I just went ahead and did that and wanted to make the best of it for myself. So, so sixteen years old, asked to leave school? Uh, well, I've been fifteen years old, asked to leave school and then moved to another school and then, um, sort of finished high school. Um, yeah, and then about sort of six to eight months after that, yeah, probably sat that test to get into university and then sort of started picking myself up after that. And when you moved out of your house, presumably you didn't move out of your house with loads of funds. No, no, yeah, so I I was actually working in a music shop. Um, so I studied classical piano for the majority of my life.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Um, so, yeah, I was working at a music shop, sort of selling pianos and selling sheet music about. Five or six hours a week for sort of fifteen bucks an hour sort of thing. Um. So yeah, so they had that. Couple of my friends are pretty helpful and sort of, you know, help me to kind of bridge the gap. But I think um I I I was able to pretty quickly like pivot out of that into figuring out like, you know, yeah. What do I want to do? You know, I want to study and learn like, yeah, how do I pay for that study? You know, like, how do I actually cover that cost? And how do I find a job that's flexible? And I was like, oh, well, yeah, I really like the health and fitness industry and I'm training in a gym a bit. So like, I'll go and do a personal training course and then, you know, like literally from there, everything kind of really picked up massively. So, you know, a matter of months after that, like I was, you know, personal training in a gym.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Um, you know, sort of within six months of that, like I'd started, you know, sort of my first business. I was a running my own business as a personal trainer in a gym, but also sort of then went out and started doing bootcamps and running bootcamps for women outdoors. Um. Another sort of six months after that, had my second franchise. Another six months after that, and Kayla and I had our first online business together. Um. So the momentum really picked up when I kind of took things into my own hands and got on the front foot as opposed to, yeah, like, you know, the other way that someone can go through adversity is, yeah, choose to feel sorry for themselves or whatever. But that's a very, that's a very slow sort of depressing path. Yeah, not one that I really think that I wanted to go on, so.

• 7:42Steven Bartlett?

  And so um you've you go to university, you graduate when you're hammered?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Didn't graduate uni.

• 7:47Steven Bartlett?

  Didn't graduate.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  No, so got um got about two and a half, three years in, I think. Um, yeah, and then sort of had started the online business that was doing sort of about ten million a year at that point and like highly profitably. Um. So I was sort of like, oh, like, well, yeah, I'll I'll defer uni because like at this point in time, it was it was, you know, critically and to be kind of frank, it was like, what's the ROI on my time? You know, like, what return on investment do I get? Like, I can go to university for however long to learn in the structured environment, like, or I could put that on, you know, timeout temporarily. I can force my own learning quicker by doing online courses or reading books and I can run a business on my own terms. You know, so the long term plan wasn't necessarily to never go back to university, but it was more about, well, these opportunities don't always come along. And when you get an opportunity, you got to go. So.

• 8:33Steven Bartlett?

  So you dropped out?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so yeah, deferred initially and then sort of a year and a half later, we were doing about, you know, twenty five million a year in revenue. And um then I was, yeah, obviously sort of just like, well. I think, yeah, again, like, yeah, same situation again, but sort of a year to twelve to eighteen months later, like, what's the ROI on my time? You know, do I, do I go back to university for another two and a half years and slow down my business? You know, what would happen in two and a half years if I was spending like a hundred and fifty percent, you know, like at, at this company? Like, what would that actually be? And then, you know, so another year and a half later, we're doing sort of fifty or sixty million dollars in revenue. And another year and a half later, it's kind of now, you know, what we're doing about, you know, a hundred million in, you know, annual turnover plus. And, yeah, trying to grow still.

• 9:14Steven Bartlett?

  So one of the things I, by the way, that's fucking impressive, just before I, I transition onwards. But, um, one of the things that I get asked all the time is I'll get messages from young kids that are at university now. And they, they either have an idea, they're either working on an idea on the side. Often there's very little traction and they're asking me the question, Steve, shall I drop out of university? What's, uh, what's your advice to them?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, look, so I think in that situation, there's probably not going to be one rule or one size fits all, right? Like, I mean, my, my thought process was pretty logical, you know, sort of like, basically, am I making enough money right now? That I can actually justify not going to university, like, when compared to basically what job I would be able to get after that? Um, you know, am I going to potentially yield a significantly larger benefit by not going to uni in the short term? Like, yes, like, I probably think so. Um, yeah, and, and I guess, like, you know, also, like, what's the opportunity cost of going to uni? You see, if I was to go to uni, regardless of the money, let's actually forget the dollar amount. It was more like these type of opportunities and business opportunities are, no, I wouldn't say necessarily, necessarily say like once in a lifetime. But like, when they're here, they're here.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  And if you don't take that opportunity and you don't get on the front foot, then it's gone.

• 10:25Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  You know, so I think, I think for people that are in university now, you know, if you've already started running a business and you're already getting your revenue and you're already like getting growth, you know, I think it's kind of up to them to determine at what point, you know? For some people, it could be. Two hundred grand a year. For some people, it could be twenty million a year. You know, it really depends. It depends on the intensity of the business and depends on the intensity of the learning. And also, I think as well, like, you know, if you drop out of university and then all of a sudden you're not studying, like you're not reading, you're not watching videos online, like you're not like forcing yourself to learn. Well. If you need university to be the thing that actually causes you to grow, then I'd probably keep going. But for me, like, I was like. I could actually learn a lot quicker by not being at university and that's like literally what's happened, you know.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So I'll read sort of like fifty to a hundred books a year, you know, podcasts, travel, networking, whatever, like. They're for me and my mindset far more valuable learning opportunities. So I wouldn't say there's like a one size fits all. I think it's kind of balancing the odds.

• 11:22Steven Bartlett?

  I know, you you you meant, I completely agree. And you mentioned there that you read fifty to a hundred books a year. Whenever someone mentions books on the internet ever, the first question people ask is, what's your favorite book?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:30Steven Bartlett?

  So I'd be remiss if I didn't.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I think, um, you know, at different points in time, different books, right? Um, yeah, I think for me, you know, sort of over the last probably. Two years, probably two books. I think, you know, one of them is um Good to Great by Jim Collins, which is sort of like um. Really, a really good, almost in some way, statistical analysis of the reason why businesses have gone, you know, like. Top hundred businesses in the world, how they went from being effectively good businesses to becoming great companies that stood the test of time. And so for me, that was really kind of eye opening about, well, you know, the approach to business should obviously very often be about sustainability, not just growth. Yeah. So I think that was really critical. Um. And then, you know, probably, you know, more more specific like subject matter, but like, yeah, there's a book, um.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Really, really clever guy called T N Zoo, who runs a company called Zora, and they're basically a subscription, like, subscription business, subscription management software. Um. And he wrote a book called Subscribe and it's sort of just a really, really enlightening view on like modern business models and like how the effectively the subscription economy is is going to change business in a really big way. So. Um. Cause we run in subscription business, that was really, really good for us. Yeah.

• 12:33Steven Bartlett?

  Great. And um going back to the business you started in university, that that started making ten million, twenty million dollars a year.

• 12:41Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about that and what business that was and.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sure. So basically after we like, you know, I've been running a couple of bootcamps and Kayla was doing, we were doing studio, like running a PT studio. We like entered the online world selling ebooks. So this is sort of like really early 2014, almost. You know, Instagram's kind of new thing and ebooks are sort of there, but sort of not. And in the fitness industry, definitely not really. Yeah. So we kind of, we had, we had a lot of people online. Effectively, we, we generated a decent fan base to, to effectively lead generate for bootcamps. But then what started to happen was obviously you can't just build fans in kind of one suburb. Yeah. So the fans online sort of started being like, oh, we've got some in America, some in Russia, some in, you know, wherever. And they were like, oh, like, well, you know, I see your client transformations and I see your workouts. They look really cool. Like, I want to do that.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  So we kind of, yeah, just wrap that up all up in an ebook, you know, a couple of hundred pages packaged with a whole bunch of like what we believe to be kind of almost mandatory like education material and sort of, you know, put it on a website that we built that was really gross and barely worked and crashed all the time or whatever. But yeah, pushed out on the internet and then sort of off it went. So, you know, we, uh, we were, to be honest, like really surprised we launched it. I said in the first week, probably generated more revenue and sales than what we would have done in like six months in our existing business.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Obviously the, you know, the initial emotion is like, yes, like that's amazing. But then it's kind of like, oh, but what about next week? You know? And then.

• 14:03Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  So that was, and that, I think to be honest, that kind of almost fear, but like critical view of, you know, what's next and what's coming for the business is probably what kind of helped us to take it from just like a, here's an idea into like, it's an actual legitimate business. So.

• 14:17Steven Bartlett?

  I didn't really introduce Kayla.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:19Steven Bartlett?

  So I probably should take, take a step back and introduce Kayla. Obviously I know, but I'm not sure everybody listening knows. Who is, um, who's Kayla?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  So Kayla's my fiance, um, but she's a personal trainer. So Kayla had seen us and, uh, we, we started dating sort of probably about a year, a year and a half before we sort of started working together at least online. But yeah, she was, uh, like we, we went to market effectively with her brand, like her name as a brand to sell what was initially the Bikini Body Guide. So, um, there's now become an app, obviously. But, um, yeah, she, she, she was the face and the name of everything that we did, you know, sort of for the first few years and is now currently, well, Forbes recently named her the most influential sort of fitness icon in the world, which is pretty amazing. But yeah, she's having a massive impact on the space. So.

• 15:01Steven Bartlett?

  You've just recently announced that she's got a baby on the way.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, so we got engaged sort of beginning of last year. And then, yeah, we're currently pregnant, due in the eight weeks and five days.

• 15:14Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, wow.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so pretty soon, yeah.

• 15:16Steven Bartlett?

  And how long have you guys been together?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Uh, coming up, six and a half years.

• 15:20Steven Bartlett?

  And you've been working in business for the same period of time?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Five, five, yeah. So, I mean, e- even really early on, like when, um, you know, Kayla was doing her personal training and I was doing mine, like, we kind of, we had this sort of, you know, shared and parallel kind of view on like women's fitness and workouts and client engagement, except I also kind of had this really, you know, deep like passion for business, you know, so, um, you know, e- e- even like really early on in our relationship, it was more just kind of, I'd help her problem solve certain stuff in the business, but then she'd have this really great idea about content we could create or, you know, different workouts we should do. And so it was kind of a really, you know, the perfect partnership in some ways, like in that way really early on. And we knew each of our strengths and we kind of stuck to that, so.

• 16:00Steven Bartlett?

  And what's it like doing business with someone that you're romantically involved with?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, the question we get asked all the time. Um, I think, yeah, well, probably to be clear, like, early on, it was very different to what it is now. You know, it's like now, like, I don't really see her at all during the day. Like, it's not like we're in meetings together, you know, I'm, I'm more so doing, you know, the business stuff and what's coming next and whatever for, for the whole organisation. And she's obviously kind of more critically focused on her, on her own brand. Um, but I, I think, you know, e- early on, there's definitely kind of some, you know, like sometimes there's tension or, or, or more, you know, kind of discussion about certain stuff, but I think we've been really fortunate, like we've, to be honest, probably never really, I don't think we've ever really actually argued about business or anything like that. And I think that really comes down to like, you know, my role in this is X and, you know, her role in it is Y.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And like, we're both going to have the trust in one another that we're going to dominate in those two areas and that's that.

• 16:55Steven Bartlett?

  Right. Kayla, Kayla did a post on Facebook that I've got here.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 16:59Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know which post I'm referring to?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I don't, no. There's a lot of posts there.

• 17:04Steven Bartlett?

  She's, it's a post about you.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:06Steven Bartlett?

  She says, on Toby's profile, it says he was expelled from school, but people always think this is a bad thing. Toby was actually asked to leave school because he spent a lot of his time being bored. And yes, this made him a little distracting to others. He is a genius. I'm not saying that because I think he's smart. He really is a genius with an amazing mind. He was studying classic piano from age four. Sorry if this is making you a little bit embarrassed. And was at university level by 13 years old. He is able to work on mathematical problems in a matter of seconds. He has a photographic memory. He can analyze a person or a situation and know everything that is going to happen next. He can finish your sentences, which he says is sometimes annoying.

• 17:48Steven Bartlett?

  He can fix anything, learn new languages in a few months. Nothing is too difficult for him. And as amazing as this sounds, he thinks this is a burden sometimes. Why is that burden? I'm fucking.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  There's a lot going on up in my head. I think that's for sure. But I think Kayla's very generous with her words.

• 18:04Steven Bartlett?

  Of course, yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But, um, yeah, I mean, I don't know about the, the stuff about me being, being really clever or whatever. But, you know, the, the stuff about, you know, the piano and whatever, that's all true. Like, I definitely did that stuff and was, um, yeah, effectively kind of doing the equivalent to concert piano level performance when I was sort of 13 years old. And yeah, just kind of the way I was always into problems, obviously, as I said before, was always how it was.

• 18:26Steven Bartlett?

  The burden part, what does she mean? What is she referring to?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think.

• 18:30Steven Bartlett?

  I've heard a few people refer to their own mental sort of cognition as a burden. Elon Musk is one of them.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:35Steven Bartlett?

  So.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, yeah, probably kind of, well, probably two things. I think fundamentally, there is like, there's, there's so much traffic, you know, like in your mind, there's so much information going in and out. Yeah, which, and it's literally also like 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Like, it doesn't, it never ever kind of really stops. And I think also as well, then, yeah, and something I've been really trying to work hard on over the last sort of 12 months, like as a leader, like that communication is really hard. You know, like, so when there's so much stuff going on in your head, or like when something seems really simple and obvious and you're just like, it's, you've clearly got the. But trying to communicate that to other people who for whatever reason that might not be as strong in that field or it might not make as much sense to them like you know that that barrier can sometimes be a little frustrating.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Um. And yeah, especially like early on, you're in a business like, yeah, you're trying to move it a million miles now. Not that that's really changed, still trying to move it a million miles now, but you're trying to really move super, super fast. But when you're the person sitting there and the vision is really clear to you and you can see all the answers and what are like it's right in front of you. But then you've got a team of people who are doing their best to keep up with you and like, of course, they're doing a great job. But trying to bridge that gap can sometimes be kind of, you know, like painful in some ways. Um. And especially then when you couple that with someone like me who, you know, I'm kind of self-confessed extremely impatient.

• 19:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's gonna say patience is what we're talking about.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. So yeah, so there's brains going a million miles an hour, really impatient, you know, there's a, there's a bridge that you've got to cross. And so sometimes it can be a bit of a burden, but it is what it is.

• 20:00Steven Bartlett?

  I don't get, I don't, because when you say that, I completely get it. But then I also know my friends that are CEOs of big companies like Umar, who leads a pretty little thing. And I, I had the same conversation with him last week in L A. And he is the same. He's, I said to him, you're the most impatient person I know. And I watch him get frustrated to the point of like his face going red. Because Umar will decide something, he'll have a vision and know it. And the problem is he needs his team to do it.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the lag factor. It's no different to, I don't know if for any of anyone listening who's ever done online gaming. Well, that's like you're playing Call of Duty or something and you start lagging. It's literally the same thing. It's the frustration, but.

• 20:41Steven Bartlett?

  And how have you, have you, this is just advice for myself. How have you come to, to deal with that?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, um, I think to, to be honest, it's kind of like most, most things, I think. Becoming aware of that first and, and understanding like what the, what the deficit or surplus is in that particular area is really critical. Yeah. So for, for me, um, you know, being aware of that and then communicating that to my team. So like, cool, like my brain goes a million miles an hour. If you don't understand something or it doesn't make sense, just ask. Yeah, like, and sometimes something as simple as like actually open the door for people to have an opinion or to be able to ask a question is actually really critical. Cause. You know, as a CEO, like, you know, the person that's very often making the decisions or alternatively at least like setting the vision, you know, sometimes people kind of wanna just take what you say, you know, immediately, yep, cool, but they're afraid to actually ask what that means and kind of validate it for themselves.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Um, so I think, yeah, the awareness and allowing that type of communication with your team members is really important, but um, at the end of the day, I think it's, it's, it's much like a lot of things in life, you know, whether it be health and fitness or learning or whatever, like, it really is a discipline. You know, like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how smart you are or how fast your brain can go, or if you've got all the answers or whatever, if you can't bring other people along for the journey and you can't get them motivated about it and you can't get them to understand it clearly, it doesn't really matter. You know, so the discipline to be patient, which is sometimes very difficult, but the discipline to be patient, um, you know, and consider it and communicate is really, is really the foundation for success there.

• 22:03Steven Bartlett?

  And in Kayla's um, post on her Facebook page, she, she says a lot of very, very nice things about you and points to, I guess, a number of attributes about you that might be responsible for your personal success. But um, from your perspective, why do you think that you've been successful in the way that you have?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 22:24Steven Bartlett?

  And I'm talking personally in terms of not opportunity or timing or Instagram. I mean, on a personal level, what are the attributes of you as a person?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think, yeah, I mean, categorically, probably a few things, I mean, you would have heard these a thousand times, I'm sure, you know, kind of speaking to other, other leaders and CEOs, but I think, you know, like, I think there's, the basic one is about you need to work hard, like, I think that's the thing, and yeah, for me, like, working hard is not a learned behavior, like, it's actually just inherent to who I am, you know, so working multiple jobs or working long hours or working whatever, like, I think outside the bounds of the kind of traditional nine to five, you know, like, yesterday was more like a five to nine, you know, sort of thing. Um, you know, so I think, you know, the, the hard work is definitely a thing, um, the discipline I mentioned as well is obviously a really critical thing as well, because discipline's kind of, you know, when you're working hard but you get tired and you wanna stop, like, that's what's gonna kind of perpetuate the momentum, um, cause really, at the end

• 23:14Speaker 01

  of the day, it's about building momentum and maintaining it, and you know, so having the discipline and the drive is really the two things that are gonna keep that going. Um, I think really, like, outside of that, a lot of things kind of cascade from that, you know, like, it's the, like, you know, learning and self-development, like, Well, that's still like, you've got to be driven to want to learn and you've got to be disciplined to keep learning. Um, you know, I think surrounding myself with like really, really, you know, highly intelligent and experienced people as well to help, again, perpetuate the momentum has been really critical. But I think everyone, everyone kind of has their own secret sauce, you know, and I think if I had to get kind of out of the, you know, the generalist, you know, sort of stuff. Like, I think, you know, probably my greatest strength is being really like detail oriented and really strong in information architecture. And so what I mean by that basically is that a lot of people would probably describe me as OCD, like highly OCD.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Um, but I would just describe that as highly specific about what I want. Um, yeah, and I think on the information architecture thing about being able to frame things in a way that makes sense and being able to organize things in a way that makes sense for a lot of people. Kind of breaks down the barriers again, like I mentioned before, for communication to generate that momentum for the team. So.

• 24:15Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:17Steven Bartlett?

  Awesome. And, you know, you're a very young business person. We talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but it's not always easy as a young person to get into business. Because, um, you're, I guess you have more to prove.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Steven Bartlett?

  People expect less from you.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 24:34Steven Bartlett?

  But I also think in some respects that them taking you for granted creates an opportunity as well in some respects. Talk to me about what it's like being a young person trying to get into business and your, your experiences of that.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I think, I think obviously it depends who you're in the room with, you know, but I think, um, you know, there's, there's, there's definitely some pretty savage experiences. You know, like, um, yeah, I've, I've literally been in, in, like, shown up to a meeting before going to walk with someone and literally just been like, literally marched out. Like, because then thirty seconds into the meeting, they're like, you as a kid don't care. Like, it doesn't actually matter like what you're talking about. Like, some people generally don't care. And, you know, that's a very like kind of broad stroke, you know, like remark, but there are genuinely some people that just don't care. Um, you know, like if you walk into a meeting room and you're sort of twenty, twenty five years old, they just don't really value your opinion. Um, yeah, but I think, yeah, without being negative on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's also some people that are tremendously welcoming, you know?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  And so I think, um, you know, again, like part of, part of the journey is, you know, having the resilience to survive what, you know, probably the, the shitty meetings, you know, the shitty people that you network with. You know, and to try and find the, you know, the, the rose amongst the thorn type situation, you know, like where is the, where is the person that doesn't judge me for my age or for my, you know, lack of knowledge in certain areas, you know, because I think part of being young as well or of any age is you might be an expert in. Whatever, software engineering and product development, but you might not know anything about finance. Yeah, and like, so you're going to meet with an accountant or whatever, and like, because you're actually doing really well at something, there's kind of a preconceived like expectation that like, oh, well, you must think you're pretty good. But then when you come into a meeting vulnerable, like, oh, I don't actually really know a lot about this, but I really want to learn. They kind of get almost taken back by that.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but um, yeah, I think it's, it's, it is hard in some ways being a young person, like trying to do business, but I think it's only as hard as you let it be hard for yourself. You know, like at the end of the day, you can get emotional about that and emotional about a lot of things in business, or you can just go brush it off and kind of move on to the next thing, you know, so.

• 26:25Steven Bartlett?

  You started when you were twenty one, twenty two?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, I started as a P T, like actually running my own business at probably like nineteen. Right. But yeah, I mean, it really started to, you know, like pick up and get kind of more serious around twenty one years old. Which, yeah, like, you know, you're traveling the world and even not, not we're fully bootstrapped organization, but like, I think, you know, met with a lot of investors that are around that age as well. And it's, um, yeah, some of them certainly more forthcoming than others, that's for sure. Yeah.

• 26:49Steven Bartlett?

  And you mentioned though that there's a lot of savage times. You know, much of the, well, I think anyway, I think because of various films and Instagram quotes and all these kinds of things. A lot of people see entrepreneurship as being a pretty rock star thing, like jet skis, lots of holidays, private jets, money, cars, everything in between. And um, do you agree or disagree?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I think, I, I, I think that we live in a society and, and generation where things are probably or definitely hyped up a little bit. Yeah, I think as well, like, um, a lot of people wanna, yeah, and well, maybe rightfully so. They're really proud of what they've achieved and they really want to show that off and whatever. But I think that, I think that that being set as the benchmark for, yeah, the aspiration for a lot of our generation is probably what the actual mistake is. So I think, yeah, showcasing it and being proud is, of course, is cool, is one thing. But I think if you're someone who is not in that position and you're at the very beginning of your journey, I think aiming for that is actually the wrong, you know, the wrong aim. Like in a, in a multitude of different ways. Yeah, I'm sure, you know, probably yourself and an abundance of other people that you know, like this is, you know, having money is cool and having things and whatever is cool and not whatever.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  But ultimately, there's a really, really, really distinct realisation that happens kind of early on in the journey. And that is that that's not like, and as much as other people want to argue, that's not actually going to bring you joy in life at all. You know, but the thing that brings you joy is the journey. It's every win that you get and not necessarily just the win about money. It's the win about progress that you've made. You've just hired a really elite person who's going to like just add massive gains to the business, you know, like whatever. It's all those little wins that are actually the good things. You know, the, the car and the house and the private jets and the whatever like, yeah, that's, that's, that's cool. And it's, it's fun for about thirty seconds and whatever. But after a while, like, who, who, who are you really actually pleasing? Is that pleasing yourself or is that pleasing other people would probably be my argument, but.

• 28:41Steven Bartlett?

  At what point did, on that point of money, if I give you, this is basically yes or no question is if I give you another million quid now, would you be happier?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  None at all.

• 28:50Steven Bartlett?

  Um, at what point did your happiness stop scaling?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 28:56Steven Bartlett?

  Based on.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  That's a good question, yeah. Look, I think, um, yeah, I don't think that I'd be able to say like, oh, it was at this dollar point, yeah. But I think that, I think that really, there was probably a realisation sort of as KLS brand started to lift off. And we started to make this pivot into the app that was like, it, it then, everything just became so exciting. Yeah. And like, to be honest, you know, and not that I think that any accountant or financial controller want to hear this, but you, you almost forget about the money. Like really, it just becomes, it's, it's just a measuring stick. Like, did we win this quarter better than last quarter? Like, that's the grade, yes or no, right? Yeah, but I think like for me, you know, like I was just literally just dumped into the middle of like learning software engineering and learning marketing and user experience and automation and whatever.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  And for me, that was like literally the best part of the journey and still is the best part of the journey. Like I got to learn all of this, like, you know, like front, you know, kind of like leading world class sort of stuff that otherwise I wouldn't be exposed to. Yeah. And for me, that's an epic part of it. And, you know, like being here today, like meeting someone like yourself, same age, like killing it in a completely different space. Like that stuff is actually worth it, you know, that's the memory that I'll be able to talk about, even if I have zero dollars one day.

• 30:02Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  You know, but you can't like, when you do have zero dollars potentially in the future, you're not going to look back and be like, oh, it was so great when I had all that money. You know, like, because that's going to be depressing, right? But like, you're being able to go back and be like, oh yeah, we achieved this, like, you know, we run bootcamp tours for a hundred thousand women around the world. Like, you know, like we literally changed the space, like that's awesome, you know, um, and that's going to last forever. Yeah, that won't ever, like, won't ever fade.

• 30:25Steven Bartlett?

  And. I think I know the answer to this question, but are you scared of losing it all?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Look, I think that anyone would be lying if they said no, you know. Yeah, I think there'd be different reasons why people are fearful, that's for sure. But I think like, you know, I think to be honest, like part of a good entrepreneur and the thirst and drive for success is probably a fear of failure. I don't think it's necessarily a fear of like losing a dollar on the bank account, but it's more about like, it's a fear of going backwards. It's a fear of slowing down. It's a fear of the product not being as good. It's a fear of you not being the front runner, you know, all of those things like. I don't think that that's something that anyone's going to be happy about, that's for sure. But I think, yeah, I don't think that would necessarily for me specifically have anything to do with money. It's more about progress, you know, like my, my, my obsession and my drive is for progress, not for dollars.

• 31:19Steven Bartlett?

  And what, what is your, your long-term aim then? If, if you're obsessing over progress, what is, you know, 10 years progress to you? What does that look like?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Sure. So, yeah, if we, if we zoom in a little bit like on, on the business, so yeah, sweat is. Sweat effectively, we kind of define as, you know, a digital gym, you know, so how does I have to be the world's biggest digital gym? Yeah, we, we view the fitness industry basically as being, you know, fragmented, you know, so like there's, there's big box gyms, there's 24 sevens, there's, you know, your soul cycle and a 45 boutique experiences, and then there's hundreds and thousands of fitness apps and trainers and what are online, you know. The last segment of that is the segment that we plan, how do we aggregate all of that? You know, when you think about music, right, you think about Spotify, you know, if you think about entertainment or movies, you think about Netflix. You know, when you think about working out, you don't think about anybody, right?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  So in five or 10 years' time, when you think about working out, you'll think about sweat.

• 32:15Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, love it. I'm sold. Let's take a step back. So when I say hard times, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Um. All the first things. Probably, yeah, probably. So I think the, the, the very first launch of our app. Um, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, probably to, to kind of summarize that in really short, you know, go into this project, uh, to launch an app to kind of pivot the business. Expect to spend sort of two hundred to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars building it. Spend sort of the better part of three quarters of a million, you know, hope it's gonna take sort of twelve to fourteen weeks, takes you kind of the better part of a year. Um, you know, so after all that time and all the extra money and effort that's gone into it, you finally get to launch day and you're like, oh, like, this is great, like, people are gonna love this. Like, it's gonna be a really big win. The company's just gonna go to the next level. You press that big red button to go live, um, and in the first twenty four hours, you kind of get twenty five thousand complaints.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so, you know, when you got a team, I said, like, at this point, maybe twenty or twenty five people who have, like, literally worked their arse off for a year and they're all looking at you like, why didn't it work? Yeah. Um, and then you've also got twenty five thousand consumers looking at you like, well, that was crap. Yeah. You know, um, and so, yeah, so I think there's, you know, there's the, what we were just talking about, there's the fear of like, shit, like, did I just mess this up? Like, did I just, did I just break everything? You know, and then there's the, what the hell am I gonna say to the staff that are here? And then there's the, well, we've actually also got twenty five thousand members, you know, that we kind of need to like, you know, service and be like, provide a good experience to, like, and everyone literally is looking at you. Hmm. Yeah, so I think like, uh, at that point in time, that's, yeah, when you talk about, you know,

• 33:54Speaker 01

  fear or you talk about like hard times or whatever, like for me, that's probably one that's kind of stitched into my memory pretty, pretty well, yeah. Is there another? Um, there's, there's, I mean, there's plenty, but I think, yeah, maybe, maybe something like, you know, so, something as fearful, like, e- e- every business goes through kind of like, you know, difficulties, like, you know, setting things up, like getting your website URL, like, you know, whatever. And like, so I wouldn't really say there's not necessarily like, oh, yeah, like another, like massive one, but I think there's, there's, there's probably like tens or hundreds of like small things like that, that, you know, a lot of people kind of, you either don't remember along the way or whatever. Like, it's, it's the only thing that matters at that point in time. But then like two weeks later, when the next one comes up, like, that's the only one that matters.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  But so I think you're on the journey, there's, there's you're constantly faced with these like what at the time they feel like kind of world crushing events. Um. And they kind of are in many ways, you're emotionally and mentally, but then you're sort of two to four weeks later, you're already on to the next one.

• 34:49Steven Bartlett?

  And and what have you learned about hard times because of that, because they because they happen so um frequently in the world that you've put yourself in.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:57Steven Bartlett?

  What in hindsight, if someone's going through a hard time, or if they encounter a hard time, someone like yourself, who who is um very much sped up the amount of hard times that they experienced by stepping outside of your comfort zone. What um insight can you give us into our times?

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Sure. So I mean, well, yeah, first and foremost, it is totally okay to be emotional and it is like you should at all times be aware and conscious and you know, feel your emotions. However, no matter how emotional you are, your emotions will never ever fix the problem.

• 35:30Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Right. You know, so it doesn't matter like how sad you are, doesn't matter how angry you are, does like that. That's, you know, short, short of that motivating you to solve the problem, that that's not actually going to fix the problem, you know, so like, you know, the and yeah, this is probably kind of referring back to my my OCD and my detail sort of thing, but you know, my mind will kind of go like, oh, like that sucks, shit. Okay, cool. So the solution for the problem is blah, right? Like, and that's really the way that my brain works. So I think that, you know, if people are going through like repeated amount of hard times, like it's cool, like and you need to have an outlet. And like sometimes people need to complain and they need to vent and whatever to their friends and family. But I think again, it's kind of like, you know, discipline, do that, time out, and then go and win, right? Because the reality is that you could dwell on one problem for six months or a year even, you could be really upset about it.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  But all that time you spent being emotional and upset about it is just wasted time. You could have been making progress. Yeah. So like, you know, I think, yeah, a lot of people would probably refer to, you know, a lot of like really successful people and, you know, maybe me as an entrepreneur as well as like probably kind of intense. You know, but like it's that that intensity to move and intensity to win and intensity to kind of frog leap your problems is is what generates, again, it generates a momentum and perpetuates the growth of the organization, I think, you know. If you if you have a leader in your organization, or if you're if you are the leader of your organization and you want to sit there for weeks and weeks and weeks on end. Kind of complaining about the problem, like you've not really achieved anything. You know, so.

• 36:50Steven Bartlett?

  Do you have, I think everybody does, but do you have people within your organisation? Let me refrain this question because I don't want to make it about your organisation, but have you, have you worked with people across? And I don't even really know if this is a question. I'm basically just saying this and seeing what you think about it. I've worked with people over the last couple of years, maybe over the last five years, where when something bad happens, say the room is on fire. They'll be the type of person who will repeatedly let you know that the room is on fire, right? And they'll scream, the room is on fire, the room is on fire. They'll tell their team the room is on fire. They'll tell everybody they can that the room is on fire.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Steven Bartlett?

  And there's another type of person who will be in a room that's on fire. And instead of saying it, because it's clearly obvious that the fucking room is on fire and that's not helpful right now, they'll be solely focused on how we get out of the room.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:33Steven Bartlett?

  Right? And I've always thought that the type of people that as a CEO, you have to give the leadership roles to. Are the type of people that are the solution orientated ones because the first type of person who will just say that the room is on fire. If they're given a leadership role, because emotions can be quite contagious in business, the worry is they will pass those emotions through the organisation.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Well, it's a, it's a fact, right? So statistically, like 70% of the emotion and behaviour of like a team and an organisation is stimulated by that of their leader. You know, so like regardless, you know, whether it's, it's, it's leader right at the top of the organisation or whether it's a leader who's managing a team of four people. Yeah, those four people will still inherit behaviours from the leader, right? So I couldn't agree more. The second person sounds like someone you want to hire, right? The first person sounds like someone, yeah, not only do you probably not want them in a leadership role, but you probably, yeah, and again, being savage, but you probably don't really want them in your organisation at all. Yeah, like, because the reality is like, even if they're not, you know, responsible for like driving and leading the team, they're still sitting next to someone. And that someone's still sitting next to someone and that someone's still, yeah, like it's really, it's a, it is, it is in many ways like a, a compounding domino effect.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, it's, it's those conversations, it's the water cooler conversations and whatever, like everything that kind of creates and perpetuates culture like, you know, I mean. We, we again would probably say that we're, we're pretty hard on that, you know, it's end conversation. What's a solution? And then if it's continuous, yeah, it's on fire, it's on fire, it's on fire. It's probably like, well, maybe we need to have a discussion about how you deal with problems. Why? And then if not.

• 39:07Steven Bartlett?

  Fine.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that doesn't mean that they're a bad person. It just means that your workplace and environment, your team, whatever, is not necessarily for them. Like, I think, you know, a lot of people would view like terminating an employee or whatever like as a bad thing. And I think in some ways, if you're like, you're fired, get out. Like, that's probably a little mean. You should always, you should always shy on the side of caution with an employee and be there to support them, of course. But, you know, if an employee, if you identify and they can also agree and identify that the workplace is not right, like, it's like a bad relationship. Like, don't, you know, don't force it to remain together. You know, you could be better off apart, so.

• 39:40Steven Bartlett?

  I completely agree. I completely agree. I didn't know that stat as well, so I'm gonna use that a lot. That's seventy percent. I need to like research that after this. But, um, one of the things that Kayla wrote on her Facebook post was that sometimes people think you're arrogant. Explain that to me. I've got a question on that point, but what does she mean?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think, um, I think any person that's in a room that's extremely certain about what they want and extremely certain about the solution can sometimes, you know, confidence can very often be mistaken for arrogance. You know, I think, um, I think probably what I would delineate as being the, the, the key differentiating factor there really would be that someone who's confident is someone who perhaps maybe has the answers or believes in their own abilities, but has something that actually can validate that. You know, so like, you know, a professional golfer can be confident in their ability to putt a ball in, right? You know, whereas if you've never played golf in your life and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna smash you, you're gonna get holes in ones, like, that's probably more so arrogance because you don't actually have the experience and you've never done it before.

• 40:30Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Um, I, I think there's a grey area there somewhere in between about, you know, like how you communicate that and how you show yourself and how you show up to things. But, um, I think that generally speaking, uh, you know, like colloquially, people who are extremely confident and who are maybe not known so well by someone else, that can very often come across as arrogance. But, yeah.

• 40:47Steven Bartlett?

  And that, that often attracts a lot of, um, hate.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 40:52Steven Bartlett?

  Topic I wanted to talk about with you generally, because I've, I mentioned it in my last podcast, was about the topic of haters.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:57Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I know, I don't know that you've had any haters, because I've not.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  No, for sure we have, yeah.

• 41:02Steven Bartlett?

  But I'm sure you have, right? And, um, I think in today's age, where we're all connected and we get to see a lot and tell other people's lives and read their stories in an instant, I think, um, everybody has haters, people that will, especially successful people, right? Um, so.

• 41:18Steven Bartlett?

  What's your, what's your view on that? And have you had haters that literally, no matter what you do, will just say you're a piece of shit?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much. I mean, yeah, well, the famous saying is haters gonna hate, right? Yeah, that's, that's, that's gonna happen kind of regardless of who you are. Like, and to be honest, like, it doesn't, you don't even, you don't even need to be successful. Like, and how have you measured success, whatever that is, right? But you don't even need to be successful to be hated, right? Yeah, I think that the reality is that, and yeah, and maybe this is like, you know, shock horror to society, but we don't actually all need to get along and be best mates. Yeah, like, now, just to add some flavor to that, you know, we shouldn't all hate each other as well, right? But I think, but not getting along and not being best mates doesn't mean that you hate one another, right? Yeah, I think that, that in, in, in society and, you know, social media perhaps perpetuates this a little bit, but I think that's kind of what the viewers of some people, it's like you are the best mates or you hate each other.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  You know, right? There's no kind of like in between. But I think, you know, being, being successful or not, maybe, you know, let's just use it as the limelight, right? You know, if you're in the limelight, you're in the media, or you're online, or you've got fans or whatever, like, you know, most people that are gonna be haters probably don't actually even know you. They've probably never even met you, right? Yeah, so I think that, and again, it's kind of like how to deal with your problems we were talking about before. Like, I think that, you know, people are gonna leave you abusive and, you know, probably, you know, dumb comments on your page or whatever, if they don't know who you are, just because they've got an opinion, they're a keyboard warrior, and that's cool, and they feel they need to express themselves. You know, I think it's the person who's, you know, the being hated, you know, or being hated on or whatever,

• 42:50Speaker 01

  it's their decision to kind of be like, well, am I gonna engage with that and waste my time and emotional energy, like, actually, like, justifying that? Or am I confident in myself and who I am as a person? I'm just gonna leave it and move on. So I think hate, hate and jealousy and whatever is inevitable. But again, it's, yeah, do you wanna waste time dealing with that? Or do you wanna spend your time getting more gains?

• 43:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and one of the, one of the, you know, hate comes in various forms from various different people, but sometimes it comes a little bit closer to home.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:16Steven Bartlett?

  And I think this is probably, it's probably, hate's probably not the right word, but let's say, like, just negativity generally. One of, the other one of the most popular messages I get into my inbox is from young people who have an ambition or a business they wanna start or a project they wanna pursue or a career, and their mum, dad, boyfriend, girlfriend doesn't believe they can do it, is being critical, is... Sometimes people can speak just by the facial expression they give you when you say something.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:43Steven Bartlett?

  That type of behavior. What's your advice to, to people like that?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Um, well, uh, so yeah, like first and foremost, like is, is, so i- if you're trying to go out and do something and you've got goals and whatever, and you, you're gonna go out and try and crush it. And like your best mate, bro, partner, family, whatever, tell you that that's a dumb idea and that you shouldn't do it. You know, I think, you know, does, well, first and foremost, does what they're saying, is that saying, is that saying something about you? Or is it saying something about them? Yeah, for a start, like, so are they telling you it's a shit idea because like they actually genuinely think that the idea is shit? Or are they saying that it's a shit idea because they are fearful that you might go and succeed? You know, or that they're jealous that you're actually having a crack because you've got, you know, the confidence to go and do it. You know, or because maybe they're afraid that, yeah, you might actually succeed, you know, you might actually dominate and then they want, you know, be on the same level as you.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so.

• 44:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is that a real thing? Do you reckon that's a?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  It's a massive thing. Yeah. So like, you know, I'll tell you a story. It's like, yeah, my, my best mate, like, his name is Mitch. We've been best mates for fifteen years, you know, like, and. I, you know, slept on the floor of his house sometimes, you know, when I wasn't living at home or whatever. Like, we've been through some savage times together and he came from a family that were, you know, uh, they, they did it right. They, they were, they were well off, right? Um, yeah. And, and he's, you know, he's working really hard now to do his best and to try to dominate in life and he's giving it a red hot crack. But, you know, yeah, a couple of months ago, I was sitting there and he's like, oh, yeah, we're on the treadmill, was walking to my gym. And he's just like, oh, you know. I was like, how was last week, mate? Like, what'd you do last week? He's like, yeah, just had work, man. Just, you know, trying to do some study, trying to, you know, improve my things, whatever. He's like, what'd you do? And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I spoke to eight thousand people at O M R, you know, just got back from like, you know, Germany, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  And he kind of goes quiet for a second. He's just like, you know, man, like, sometimes I can imagine it would be hard for me as a person to be friends with someone like you. Because what I say is, you know, I'm doing my things, I'm living my normal life, doing whatever, I'm working as hard as I can. But what you do is always so extreme and always so this and that and the other. And he's like, but, you know. That's only really bad if I think about it in that mindset, you know, if I go, but you're my best mate and you're actually winning at life and that's really amazing. Like, I'm really happy for you. You know, so that's the mindset shift, right? You know, he is able to kind of be like, well, just because I'm not doing what you're doing and what you're doing is really cool and awesome, doesn't mean that I need to be negative to you. I could actually go on with a positive mindset, but like, congratulations, man, that's sick. And, you know,

• 46:02Speaker 01

  he's, you know, going out, you know, buying his first house and whatever at the moment. And I'm like, cool, man. Like, you know, like, good luck. Like, I want you to win. Like, go get it. Like, yeah, it's no different to like in that situation, like, you know, someone could turn around and be like, oh, that's not good enough, but that's not really achieving anything.

• 46:15Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you spot those people within your friendship circle? Cause I sometimes think, you know, if you've got bad apples in your friendship circle, they have more influence, more potential to tear you down than any strangers do. Is there a way to to know who's uh, who's on your side and who's not?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think, uh, well, whatever it is that you did, it recognize them, just spot them quickly. Yeah, cause it's a waste of time otherwise. But I think, um, you know, I think, I, I think, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, well, it's exactly like, yeah, what, what's their facial expression? What's their response? Like, what, what do they communicate to you? Like, when you're talking about the thing that you are most passionate about. You know, if, if you're talking to someone about something that you just really wanna win at and you're so passionate about and they're telling you, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, well, you know, either one, I'd be having a conversation with them about that to let them know that, you know, kind of like, hey, man, this is really important to me. Like, so if you're gonna keep shutting it down, then we're probably, there's gonna be an issue. You know, um, and if they keep doing that, then it's probably, again, like, it's, again, you know, intense and whatever, but like, is that person adding value to your life?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Or are they draining energy and emotion from your life? And like, and again, like, this is, yeah, this is a really, really like blunt, like hardcore approach. But again, like, you know, you, you live your life to make yourself happy and those around you happy. You know, in that situation, you're not making yourself happy and you're also not actually making them happy either, quite obviously. Yeah. So like, I think, you know, a lot of people get stuck in this mindset. They're like, oh, but we were friends in high school, bro. Like, known you for so long. We gotta be mates forever. It's like, that doesn't have to happen. And again, just because you might drift apart from someone, doesn't make you a bad person or them a bad person. Like, that's just life, right? Yeah, so.

• 47:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, great. Yeah, that really made me think because I've, you know, along the way, I think specifically with my business partner, when he

• 47:52Steven Bartlett?

  dropped out of university and joined me in my first business, his, every time he posted on his Facebook, it was his mates from back home taking the piss out of him. So he would post one of his achievements, he'd won an award. And it would be a flurry of his friends, quote, quote, back home, ripping into pieces. I didn't have that because from a very young age, everyone I grew up with knew, knew who I was, but he changed.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:13Steven Bartlett?

  So he went from being the kid that was probably in some respects, the, the butt of the joke amongst his friends to now being successful, quote unquote.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Good on him, yeah.

• 48:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And I think his, his circle struggled to adapt to that. Next topic I wanted to talk to you about is personal mistakes. I read online about your, your speeding offence.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:32Steven Bartlett?

  And those things, being completely transparent, I got banned from driving too.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go.

• 48:38Steven Bartlett?

  For my own, for my own stupidity, I got banned from driving in the, the first week that I passed my test. Apparently I was going a hundred and one miles an hour on, on the, the motorway in a Range Rover.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Steven Bartlett?

  And the week after I passed, I had no fucking idea I was. It was four AM in the morning. I just dropped someone off at the airport in London and I was driving back to Manchester. But, um, talk to me about that process and what that taught you.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I think, um, oh, I, I think first and foremost, I think it was really, I think it was really valuable that came out of that was that I actually, that, that was a really kind of great notification to the fact that I kind of changed from being, or kind of changed from being a kid, you know, running a business, you know, into a leader, you know, leading a team and like leading, leading an organisation and leading like a vision. Yeah. And so I think, you know, i- if anything for me, that kind of was a really, really good learning curve to understand that it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, like it doesn't matter how small the mistake is or whatever, but it's more about the message that it actually sends.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so like a, a, as a leader, like I mentioned before, like obviously like, yeah, a huge portion of the behaviour of any organisation is, is stimulated by that other leader. It's like, well, you know, How am I actually showing up to work and what do people think? Because it's not enough, like it's not enough to just win and it's not enough to just be smart. You know, it's how you win. You know, like, so are you, yeah, are you winning and being the douchebag that's like going around bragging to everyone about how great you are? You know, or are you winning and then taking your team out for dinner and celebrating with them because they've had a massive achievement? And you're like actually getting around them and congratulating them because at the end of the day, like no organisation, you're like, you know, Steve Jobs, like great dude, obviously ultra smart visionary genius, whatever it's like, but he won because he had an incredible team around him as well.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  And without the people who couldn't have done that, you know, so as a leader, I think that doing, doing, you're making a mistake or whatever it is, you know, speeding forward or whatever, right? But I think at the end of the day, it's again, so what, what, what did we take away from that? Yeah. And so for me, like I took away like, well, I can actually have a profound impact on people by doing good things and or bad things. What am I going to choose to do? Well, let's choose to do some good things. Yeah. So that was kind of what I took out of that.

• 50:45Steven Bartlett?

  And, um, you know, you've, I've read that there's over 20 million people using your products. Is that accurate?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Um, so we've had, so we would have had in total, I think about 35 million people use the product now in total. Um, obviously there's a different amount of people using it at any given point in time, but yeah, plenty of people, yeah.

• 51:02Steven Bartlett?

  And this is across the, the, the body, the body guides, the, the app, sweat.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  All of our trainers now, yeah.

• 51:09Steven Bartlett?

  The books, the accessories.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yep, all that stuff, yeah.

• 51:13Steven Bartlett?

  Pretty incredible.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, uh, to be honest, man, like I, I think it's sometimes we forget about how many people that actually is and how many people are being affected by like, what we're doing in a really, really good way, you know, like, so that's, you know, nearly two times the population of the country that I grew up in. And like, that's like, and, and for me, like, you know, early on, like again, like, yeah, you're always focused on the wins and the games and the progress and how you do that stuff. But every now and again, like, you know, calling out that stuff and being like, wow, like, we've actually like had a pretty big impact on like literally millions of people's lives. And like, that's a pretty big like wow moment, you know, for me and for Kayla, so.

• 51:48Steven Bartlett?

  And this is a bit of an obscure question. It's not written down anywhere. I just sometimes, I just sometimes, you know, because we're coming to the end of this conversation. So I just wanted to, to go off in a couple of random directions.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 51:59Steven Bartlett?

  Are you scared of dying?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That's a good question.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  I would say, so I'll put it this way, I'm would be scared of not being able to add value, all the value to the world that I believe I can add.

• 52:13Steven Bartlett?

  And how much value is that?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  A lot more than what I'm adding currently. So in other words, I'm not so much fearful about the notion of not being here and being on the planet. Like, I think that's an inevitable thing, right?

• 52:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Um, we'll see what happens over the next fifty years, right? But um, but I think you're more so like, I think that, you know, I'm again, you know, arrogance, confidence, whatever, like, I'm really confident that, you know, based on like how passionate I am and how driven I am and the stuff that I've been able to learn and the stuff that I inevitably will learn, that I think that I can do some pretty cool things for people and I can add some pretty good value. And whether that's on like a individual level or whether that's thirty five million women around the world, you know, like, I think that I I'm really blessed to be in the position that I am in and I'm really blessed to have the mindset that I have, you know. So I think that I would be afraid, you know, I'd be afraid to not be here and, you know, if we die or whatever, you know, if I, you know, hadn't really had a red hot crack at being able to do that in a big way. And, you know, so I think that we've done an all right job to date, but I think I'm still kind of only really just getting warm.

• 53:09Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm. So I guess it's fear of untapped potential.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's, you know, it'd be fear of waste, you know, basically.

• 53:19Steven Bartlett?

  I guess, last question then, which is a piece of advice, you know, I've I've read through your story and it was super inspiring. You're now on various rich lists and things like that.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:27Steven Bartlett?

  Little Lamborghini, I hear.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually just, I got rid of it.

• 53:30Steven Bartlett?

  Got rid of it?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:30Steven Bartlett?

  What Lamborghini was it?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a Huracan.

• 53:32Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, nice.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:33Steven Bartlett?

  Very drivable car here.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Yes, it is, yeah.

• 53:35Steven Bartlett?

  I would fucking know, but you've got thirty five million people using your products and all these things. You know, there's going to be some people out there that are listening to this podcast right now and they have, they have big dreams, they have a level of belief that they can achieve those dreams.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:50Steven Bartlett?

  And they're living a life that is not true to who they are.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:54Steven Bartlett?

  This is probably like, you know, it's the number one reported regret of the dying is that they didn't live a life true to themselves.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Sure, and they should on that.

• 54:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, they should have done and things they should, you know, and they kind of let life pass them by for whatever reason. What, what, you know, and this is also probably the, the most common message I get in my inbox. What message do you give to those people that think maybe the life that they're living isn't completely true to who they are? And, and like, is there anything actionable that they can do to, to pursue that? Big question. So.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, like, like, good questions, man, good questions. Yeah, I think, well, I think I said this like really, really early on, you know, when I was talking about like some of the adversity that I went through like as a younger, as a younger person. But I think like, at, at the end of the day, like, you know, who, who's in the driver's seat, man? Like, who's driving? You know, like, every single person on this planet effectively is in control of their life in one way or another. Like, a lot of people can, can, you know, put some extreme situation up and say like, I'm not in control of this, I'm not in control of that. And so on and so forth. And like, in some cases, perhaps that's true. But the thing that is consistent and common among every single person on the planet is that they're in control of something that impacts their life. You know, so like, sure, you might not have enough money to move out of home and you might not have a job and this and that and the other and whatever it's like. But you can control what you choose to learn to get a job.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  You know, you can control what you choose to do with your time. You can control whether you want to have one job or two jobs. Yeah, you can control whether you want to spend that money on a house or spend that money on a holiday or spend that money on a car. You know, so there's no, there's no right path. You know, I think that right now there's a battle between, you know, the, maybe the millennials and our parents who will be like, oh, you've got to go to university and you've got to get a house and you've got to do whatever. Right? You know, if you want to have kind of like what we would forecast as being a generally pretty successful and decent life, like that's one way to go about it. Right? But I don't think that that rulebook necessarily matters anymore. But at the same time, I don't think that everyone in the millennial generation also wants to go through that. Like, they don't necessarily all want to have money. Some people just might want to live a relatively normal, humble life. They might want to travel once a year or twice a year and whatever, right?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  So I think that, you know, first, yeah, first, if you want to, yeah, first and get in control, but figure out what you want to do. Cause like, running a business isn't for everyone.

• 56:01Steven Bartlett?

  Hundred percent.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, I think that it's cool to be like, oh, like Lambos, man, like private jets and like whatever, right? It's like, but do you actually want that life? Cause it's, that life's not about just having the car. That life's also about the long days. It's about the pressure and the stress and the whatever. Yeah. And you might not want that. You know, do you want the house and the kids and whatever? Like, no, maybe you don't. Yeah. So I think everyone's in control. We've all got equal control. I think it's about taking the control to the extreme and then controlling what you want. Yeah. And then working towards getting it. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, mate. It's been great to get to meet you.