E18: Chris 'Drama' Pfaff - Dealing with Fame, Anxiety and Addiction

In Chapter Eighteen I'm honoured to invite Drama aka Chris Pfaff, founder of the internationally renowned Young & Reckless streetwear brand. After creating a fashion powerhouse with no prior business experience or a college education, I wanted to find out what drives him and the lessons he's learnt along the way. We discuss the struggles of being an entrepreneur, the pressures of being a reality tv star and his addiction to alcohol and Xanax. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Steven Bartlett?

  So Chris, thank you so much for doing this today, I really appreciate it. It's great to get to meet someone like yourself while I'm out here in LA and get a productive conversation about things that I myself am trying to uncover, but you as a seasoned entrepreneur in this space have been through. My audience is predominantly young, aspiring, European, British people. Slightly skewed to male, but we do have a strong female listenership as well. For those of the people listening that don't know your story, could you give us a top line overview of your personal journey?

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So first, thank you for having me, I'm excited. And that audience is exactly who I'm trying to reach and spread my message to, so it's perfect and hi to all the new listeners. My story is this, I was born and raised in Akron, Ohio. Akron, Ohio is a pretty small area, not complete farmland, but pretty close to it, right? And I grew up, I have a brother, older brother, I have two parents who are still together. Everything was super simple. They loved family, it was all about family, stuff like that, not so much entrepreneurship, or really going above and beyond and doing anything crazy, but just a really nice, solid foundation. I fell in love with skateboarding at like 10 years old, I think, and me and my brother both. And so that's all we would do is skateboard every day, all day.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  We would leave school as soon as we can, do whatever. I was always ditching out on doing any school sports or school activities or anything like that, because all I wanted to do was skateboard. So around, I would say, the age of 14, Los Angeles is like the skateboard capital of the world, right? So it's the coolest place on earth if you're a skateboarder. So around like 14, I decided that this is where I was gonna move, no matter what. As soon as I graduated high school, I was, college was not an option for me, I was coming straight to LA, and I was just gonna try to make something happen. I wasn't good enough to be a pro skateboarder, and I kinda had that awareness, but I started like shooting video and taking photos and doing anything I could to solidify some sort of spot in the skateboard industry.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  So when I was 18 years old, I was supposed to graduate high school and then move straight to LA, the weekend after graduating, I had a head injury. From skateboarding where I was in a coma for four days and had brain bleeding and skull fracture and all this crazy stuff. So it derailed my trip about six months, right? So finally, after that six months, I was cleared to go. I left, I came to LA and just kind of hit the ground trying to figure it out. I remember when I first got here, I was insanely nervous and scared and kind of overwhelmed. To be honest, it's embarrassing to say now, but like I just felt way in over my head. I felt like there was all this crazy stuff going on that I couldn't quite grasp.

• 2:39Steven Bartlett?

  How old were you at that point?

• 2:40Speaker 01

  I was at the tail end of eighteen.

• 2:41Steven Bartlett?

  Did you have any money when you arrived here?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I had like twenty five hundred dollars and I was like, first of all, at that time at twenty five hundred dollars, I thought was so much money. You know what I mean? And it was gone like instantly. So I have a cousin who's a pro skateboarder and he's lived out here pretty much my entire life, right? Since I was, I think, five years old. So obviously we connected and I hit him up and I said, hey, man, anything I can do, like I'll film you skating. I'll clean your house. I'll do literally anything. I just want to live in LA. So we ended up meeting up, obviously, and becoming really close. And now he's a lot more like my older brother, you know? And I ended up taking a job as his personal assistant. At the time, I had no idea what personal assistants even did. He offered me the job because his assistant had just quit. Worst case scenario, I can just go get that job at a skate shop or whatever I was gonna do.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  But there's some action going on here. I want to at least give it a shot, right? So I became his personal assistant. He was a pro skateboarder. It was things like running around and grabbing shirts from his sponsors and like, you know, doing stuff like that. Putting together skateboards for him and cleaning his house. Shortly after, around six months after, they came up with the idea of possibly doing a reality show for MTV. And that sounded crazy to us at the time, right? It was just like, you know, MTV reality show. That was when like The Hills was on and all these weird MTV reality shows. It didn't seem like a place for us, but it ended up happening. Long story short, it ended up happening. It was called Robin Big and it was based around him and his best friend slash bodyguard. And it was just kind of a funny comedy like odd couple show about them running around town, doing crazy stuff. And they look crazy together.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  He's like five eight or something and the bodyguard was six, five and three hundred pounds. And it was just hilarious and the thing exploded. It just exploded into this phenomenon, especially here. And it was in a time when MTV was bigger than ever and these two guys were bigger than ever. So I stayed on as his assistant, but life just got really interesting and really crazy. And now you're dealing with fame and you're dealing with endorsements and all these different types of things. So it didn't take long for me to realize that I. Didn't want to be a personal assistant forever. I also didn't want to be a reality TV star, right? I really wanted to create. I saw all the businesses that were being launched off of this marketing platform and I wanted that. I wanted to run a business and I wanted to be able to like

• 4:51Speaker 01

  be a somewhat normal human being, but to still be able to be successful and have fun and enjoy the success, right? So Did you become personally famous from that show? I did, but not crazy, like from the first show. What are we talking in terms of like following or? I'm talking like it was before, it was really like MySpace time, right? So it was before the current like social media metrics, but I guess the best way for me to describe it is like, let's just say I go to a mall 10 times. Probably two of those times I'm gonna get recognized, right? In the beginning. The only time that would really get recognized crazy is with, if I was with the other two, right? Cause now you're with the stars like, oh, and you're here, right? So, and it was cool, but to be honest, I've always been kind of introverted and kind of anxious socially. And so it felt more like scary to me than anything.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  So that show did three seasons, huge success, great. We were all finished with it and mainly the two stars, obviously, but finished with it because reality TV wasn't a path that we could see really continuing to go down. It wasn't giving anyone any time to do anything different. So we stopped doing that. About a year later, MTV came back and said, we want to do another show and we want the familiar faces back on the network. His co-star had moved to Texas to raise his daughter, so it was me and Rob essentially together, my cousin. And they came back and said, we just want familiar faces back on the air. Anything you guys will want to do, let's do it. And so we landed on this concept of what was called Fantasy Factory. And it was this concept about Rob and his 25,000 square foot warehouse in downtown LA

• 6:22Speaker 01

  that was like, almost like a Chuck E. Cheese for adults in the main place, like skate park, zip lines, foam pits, and then also all of his business offices. So. That ended up working, getting picked up by MTV and we went into that. For me, I said, this is my chance, right? I wasn't a big enough star in any of the other stuff to really kickstart a business or to even get a good endorsement deal. This was my chance because now the co-star is gone. It's me and Rob. I watched everyone, how they played the game, how they did these different things. This is my shot. And that's where I came up with the concept for Young and Reckless. And that's my clothing line. And so what I thought is I had dabbled in a bunch of other businesses and other ideas. I was a music producer for a while, but this would really allow me to create a brand

• 7:05Speaker 01

  that meant something, fill a gap in the market and also be able to market it directly on this TV show that we're already doing, that's going to millions of people. So I'm just, everything's working together. That's what ended up happening. I went and got the trademarks, I figured it out. I wore the samples all over the show and you know, we'll get into it, but the long story, short version of it is it worked and it started taking off and I was able to build a real business behind it and really make sure that it lasted beyond this hype of a reality show. We ended up doing eight seasons of that reality show. That's where I became more, at that point, I would probably get recognized 10 times out of 10 at a mall, right? That's where it kind of changed. But yeah, and then that ended about four years ago and I, ever since then, have just

• 7:47Speaker 01

  been building this business and doing it right and readjusting and moving and shaking. I've tried a bunch of other businesses, some have worked, some haven't. And that's kind of like my, my journey.

• 7:58Steven Bartlett?

  That's incredibly inspiring, by the way.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 8:00Steven Bartlett?

  I think there's a, a lot of people who wouldn't have seen the opportunity and the platform you had there to build something even bigger than that. A lot of people would naturally concede for what they have there, but it was very entrepreneurial to want to build more. What does Young and Reckless stand for?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  I want young people to break out of the status quo and live the best life that they can live. And what that means is go start a business if you want to start a business. You don't have to go to college. You can listen to podcasts, you can read books, you can figure it out. If you want to go travel the world, let's figure out how to do that and go travel the world. If you want to go jump off the tallest cliff into the water, whatever your dream is, I support these young people saying, wait a minute, these rules don't apply to everyone and they don't apply to me and I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of go around them and, and make my dreams come true.

• 8:47Steven Bartlett?

  Were you naturally an entrepreneur? Or do you think there is such thing as a natural entrepreneur? Because one of the questions I get asked a lot is are entrepreneurs born or created? Is that, you know, the age old question? What's your thoughts on that?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  So that's the go to question. I've been asked it hundreds of times and sometimes I feel, not to be defensive, but I want to make sure I stick up for the right people. Sometimes I feel like that question is a question that allows entrepreneurs to to disassociate themselves from everyone else and get to say that they're special. And like, no, I'm different than you, right? And I think that, I don't know, I think there's obviously some traits in people, risk tolerance, courage, you know, there's all these things that do make entrepreneurs some better or some worse strengths or weaknesses. But I don't know that it's some crazy combination of gifts. I think that if, you know, people can be woken up to it. I think that something can happen to someone that wasn't maybe look at themselves as an entrepreneur up until age thirty two, and then they can become one of the best entrepreneurs that ever lived.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  I think that can happen. For me, myself, I was always trying to find ways to pay my bills and get by without having a normal job. I didn't like normal job, normal sort of authority. I don't know if that was birthed in skateboarding.

• 10:03Steven Bartlett?

  Why didn't you like normal?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I just didn't. I didn't like, something felt like just becoming one of the people. You know what I mean? It just felt like if you're gonna go get a job at like Starbucks or whatever, you're just becoming the same as Todd and Tim and Stephanie and you're just one of the people and you're taking orders because somebody said these are the orders and you're just doing it. And I didn't like that. I always hated that. And I do, will say something with skateboard culture is it's very anti like sports culture and they're very like core and, and screw, you know, corporate America trying to get into our thing and screw the rules and we do what we want. And there was something really cool to me about having no hours, having no coach, having no teammates. My own progress relied one hundred percent on me and how many hours I was gonna spend

• 10:49Speaker 01

  trying a trick in my garage in the freezing cold Ohio winter or whether I wasn't. And when you landed something or when you made progress, it was your progress to enjoy.

• 10:59Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and play devil's advocate. Obviously, I agree because I'm an entrepreneur as well and I completely understand what you're saying. But I'm gonna try and dismantle some of the things you're saying or try and argue with them. The point that entrepreneurs. Don't have a boss.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:13Steven Bartlett?

  You probably have more bosses than anybody in a sense, because you have customers, right?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:18Steven Bartlett?

  And do you have an investor, any investors at all?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:19Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so you have thousands and thousands of customers. A lot of entrepreneurs have investors. You have to work harder than everybody else.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:27Steven Bartlett?

  The person you've referenced that's sat in Starbucks cleaning tables as a barista, clocks off at six o'clock, goes home, lives the rest of their life.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:35Steven Bartlett?

  You have chosen to sacrifice friends, probably family, probably a huge amount of other parts of life.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:45Steven Bartlett?

  Romance, these kinds of things. Why?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  You wanna know why this is the difference? You're 100% right. And if I did have investors or board members or any of that stuff, I'd have a lot more bosses. The difference is, yeah, you work for them, but you get to decide what the best answer is, and you get to live or die on your own choices. Not this coffee machine has to be cleaned at nine AM, noon and three, even if I know it's not dirty. Why? Because Jim said so. That's what I'm saying, right? It's doing things, not because you believe that it's the best way to go about them and to do it, it's doing things because that's what the system says that you're supposed to do, right? And I think that being able, there's an insane amount of pressure, of course, way more than

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I ever thought, and an insane amount of missed time and relationships with being an entrepreneur. But man, when there's a problem, I get to try to solve it with my own thought process. You know what I'm saying?

• 12:43Steven Bartlett?

  I completely get, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come back again.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 12:46Steven Bartlett?

  Part of the, part of the bullshit that comes with being an entrepreneur is all the problems are also yours to solve.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:53Steven Bartlett?

  No matter how much you want your team to, to love the business as much as you do.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:58Steven Bartlett?

  You know, at the end of the day.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  They get to go home, right? And that bullshit, no matter if it's Sunday, you're on holiday, if you're sat with your mum, you're sat by your father's bedside, that bullshit is coming to find you and it's asking for you, Chris, to solve it at all times, forever.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  And I love it.

• 13:13Steven Bartlett?

  In this business.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 13:14Steven Bartlett?

  And you love that, right?

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I love it. And I, and I, and it's more than I thought. I'm not gonna act cool, like, yeah, I can take any problem. It is more than I thought. It's stressful, it's overwhelming, there's days when I hate everything and I wish I just had a nice comfy job, but. You feel so much more connected to your life when the results of your life, good or bad, are reflections of your own decisions. You know what I'm saying? I'm not waking up and I'm not. The other thing is, you could wake up and you could get yelled at all day at work for something that somebody else did. That sounds crazy to me. That sounds so miserable to me. I would rather at least take the blame and take the heat and say that I'm getting punished and I'm getting beat on because I didn't pay attention or I didn't focus or I made the wrong decision. And this is a learning experience and I'm gonna then go and win.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  And I'm also gonna reap the benefits of that progress and that win personally. But your life is just connected to you so much deeper when everything hinges on your own stuff. You know what I mean?

• 14:12Steven Bartlett?

  I get you.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  That's the part that I, I loved is like, I, I tried. I tried everything that I could. I've realized this when I was younger. That's why I say like, to take it all the way back. I can't say I was born some super entrepreneur, but I have instinctually always tried to avoid that. And I've always tried to learn and have wins or losses on my own. Like when I was younger, I said I was learning how to film for skateboarding. But what I started doing, because I had a camera and I had editing equipment, is I started going and filming little league football games. It came because one of my cousins played little league football. And I realized like, hey, these people don't have final cut and, and cameras at their house. I can go film these games, edit them, burn them to DVDs, make cool little covers

• 14:55Speaker 01

  and sell them to the parents of like, look at your kid play this big game against Manchester, right? And we have a Manchester also. And that was my first time in seeing like, oh, this is working or, you know, I'm making a little bit of money, but the margins aren't good or whatever. And there was all these little hustles. And so I always tried to do that. And I think that is a very entrepreneurial quality.

• 15:13Steven Bartlett?

  For sure. I also think that, I'm playing devil's advocate.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  No, I love it.

• 15:16Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean? And even with the question, do you think you're a natural entrepreneur? The reason I ask that question is because there's this, I guess there's a bit of a stereotype that an entrepreneur was selling, you know, in the case of Mark Cuban, bin bags to his neighbors at 14 years old, running around thinking, I'm going to start a business.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:31Steven Bartlett?

  Whereas from all the podcasts I've done and all the people I've met, the world is such a different place now with technology and, and the ability to work remotely, that you can literally be an entrepreneur, sat at home on your computer alone.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Steven Bartlett?

  Or you can be the more stereotypical version of an entrepreneur, which is this big charismatic leader of a big business.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:50Steven Bartlett?

  I wanted to ask you that question because personally, I think the definition of an entrepreneur should and has changed in many respects. On that point, knowing the pressures that you've gone through building this business and starting your own company, do you think that anyone could do it?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Oof.

• 16:06Steven Bartlett?

  Or is it just for a select few people that are tough enough to deal with the bullshit?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  I think that the same way anyone could run a marathon, anyone could start and run a business.

• 16:18Steven Bartlett?

  You think so?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I do.

• 16:20Steven Bartlett?

  You think they could deal with the stuff that you have to deal with?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 16:24Steven Bartlett?

  And not break?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's possible. I think, and that is part of what I try to do through my podcast and my message, right? Because what I don't like and what I try to shy away from is people saying, no, I'm different because I was born special, you know? Don't get me wrong, there are qualities that are undeniably needed and practiced and you, but, but people can change. People can become more resilient. People can learn how to deal with adversity. People can learn how, I mean, you can. It's, it's the same way I've seen people, I've seen people that I, I mean, there's a guy in my office 10 feet out the door who promised everyone he was going to run the LA marathon three months ago. And if you looked at him, you would think there's no chance. And everyone in the office was like, man, there's no chance.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  And I even told, I was telling him, just kind of being devil's advocate, like, hey, there's just no chance. And this, he did it and he trained and he buckled down and he ran this marathon. And it's like, I just compare the two things. It's like, I think anyone can do it. I just don't think anyone will.

• 17:27Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think it's for everybody?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  No, I don't. But I think that if you want it, if you truly want it, if you watch all these podcasts and you soak in all this content and you say, that's for me, that's for me, that's the life I want, then do it. You can do it.

• 17:40Steven Bartlett?

  This is something that I think, I think there's a huge growing contingent of people that are becoming fans of the rock star lifestyle that's a trained entrepreneur. And they never, ever do anything. But as you said, they'll, they'll watch and listen to this podcast. They'll listen to Gary Vaynerchuk, every possible type of content out there that will talk about the entrepreneur lifestyle. But they'll never take action. On the other side, I've met, and this is one of the hardest things I've had to deal with, with producing content and advocating entrepreneurship. I've met people who, I'm, I'm really only thinking about one guy.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  I love when that happens.

• 18:16Steven Bartlett?

  Who, um, he watched all my stuff and was a big fan of, you know, being an entrepreneur, all these things. And he would just show up outside our, one of our offices in the UK, Manchester, six AM in the morning every day, just to meet me and get photos, whatever. And then he came to me one day, six AM in the morning, waits outside the office with a business idea. Now, this is a guy that I'm going to be completely honest, right? He can barely communicate.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:40Steven Bartlett?

  He can't, he can't communicate articulately. He bursts out hysterically laughing almost every five seconds.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  But does he have like a condition?

• 18:47Steven Bartlett?

  I don't even know.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:48Steven Bartlett?

  I'm just.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  But not for sure.

• 18:50Steven Bartlett?

  He definitely doesn't have self-awareness, right? And this is kind of the point I'm getting to.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:53Steven Bartlett?

  His ideas that he showed me on this piece of paper, which he'd literally scribbled with a pencil to show me his business plan.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:59Steven Bartlett?

  Was horrendous.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:01Steven Bartlett?

  He couldn't sell. He couldn't hold eye contact with me. He couldn't do anything.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Steven Bartlett?

  I told him, I was like, listen, I think you've got to go back and work on the fundamentals a little bit more. And he came back at me with my own advice, which is the whole, you know, some of the advice I'd given, which is to do it and fuck you to everybody who doubts you.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:17Steven Bartlett?

  And I realized at this moment, I created a bit of a fucking, a bit of a monster because the, the truth was for him, he was, there was so much more work to do.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Steven Bartlett?

  But everything that I say about, you know, doing it regardless and discounting strangers' advice and believing in yourself was also true.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:35Steven Bartlett?

  So what, what do I do in a situation like that?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  But here's my question, right? Is do you, and this is honest question, do you think that if, let's just say, I mean, yes, will this happen? Probably not. But if that person got the right insight, the right coach, the right guidance, the right mentor, the right whatever, that he could be an entrepreneur? Or do you think he's just doing?

• 19:57Steven Bartlett?

  He could be, he could be some type of entrepreneur.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:59Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean? Could be selling something in a shop.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  There you go. So that's all that I'm saying is anyone can. It's just that most people won't because what it takes to actually do that is insane and intense. And some people, I think that the same way, it's a scale, right? Life is a scale of like sort of personality types. Some people are just born and raised and whatever, closer to the traits that are needed to do that. Right? Some people are way further, but I think anyone is capable of learning what it takes. It's just, it's just will you do it? And, and you have to be willing to learn and put your ego completely aside and just take a beating and think that maybe you're potentially wrong in any circumstance. I mean, the worst thing that I always see is people that think they know it all now.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Maybe Jeff Bezos could say he knows it all and I would be like, oh, you probably do. You know what I mean? But like, anyone under that, you can't, you just, and a part of being an entrepreneur is you can't have that attitude. You have to constantly be learning and constantly be curious and constantly be potentially wrong. And I think that some people are really far from that. But my point is, I think that, at least here in America, the way that we put people through high school, the way that college is structured, the way a lot of parents raise their kids is not conducive to the qualities that it takes to be successful at anything. But especially to be the type of person that goes out and stands on his own sort of ideas and stands at the front of the ship and steers and works harder than everyone.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I mean, we're just not raised that way, but that's part of my thing. I think the good thing is this, the bad thing is I can't stand just as much as the next guy, the dreamer wannabe entrepreneurs that just soak in YouTube videos all day long and think that they're entrepreneurs. I hate it. I think it's toxic. I think it's really bad. But I do think that what's happening is the internet and all of that content is allowing more people who are real and are serious and are hungry to get a little glimpse into what is true and closer to the truth and further from the bullshit that maybe their parents taught them or whatever, and therefore allowing more people to live their dreams. And I think that's the part that's really important. And that's what's so important about what you're doing is forget. I mean, when we used to have a reality show, there'd be people waiting outside the gates of this thing all day long,

• 22:12Speaker 01

  throwing their terrible business ideas over the fence. Like, please, just give me a shot. This is the best idea ever. Terrible idea, over and over and over. But the point is, I do believe that, forget about all that, there were people that started businesses or became inspired to do something better than what they thought they could because of that show that otherwise wouldn't have. And that's the same thing you're doing and all these people are doing, you know?

• 22:33Steven Bartlett?

  For sure. So. I think that what you just said there has inspired a question I had. You talked about when you were doing the reality show and people were throwing their business ideas over the fence. When you put yourself out there as an entrepreneur, what will happen quite naturally is people will flock to you with their business ideas. Under the assumption that you're the enabler, you're the investor, you're the person that holds the wisdom that can help them make these ideas come true. I'm sure if your DMs look anything like mine, it's full of a lot of young people.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  It's like Shark Tank in there.

• 23:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, hitting you with their elevator pitches and their business ideas in your DMs.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:08Steven Bartlett?

  This is just an interesting question because I think you're probably in the same position as me in this regard. What has someone got to DM you or send you via your private inboxes to get your attention?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard. It's hard because it's a bit of a case by case, but like number one, if it's an ask first, you have no shot, right? It's just not possible, right? Like, help me with this or help me come up with a business plan or give me some money. I think that it's like some sort of value proposition, right? It's, hey, I have this thing that is really, really valuable. I mean, what happens the most now is podcasts because all these young people have these new up and coming podcasts and it's great. And I like having the conversations, but they say, hey, I have a podcast. This is what it's called. This is how many listeners I have. This is what I plan to talk to you about, and this is why it would be really good. Is there any way that you'd be willing to give me an hour of your time and do this? Of course, I would love to.

• 23:58Steven Bartlett?

  What's the worst type of DM you get? The ones which you just roll your eyes.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yo, dog, can I have 20 grand?

• 24:03Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, okay. So the things, I've never talked about this publicly before, but I honestly get annoyed. Not annoyed at the person for the messaging me or offended. I'm annoyed because I'm disappointed in them.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:17Steven Bartlett?

  And I read these DMs and it will literally be, yo, any jobs going?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:21Steven Bartlett?

  I'm annoyed because I want this kid, who I don't even know this kid is, I want them to get a job. Total stranger, I want them to win, but I'm so disappointed that's how they're applying to the CEO of the company.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:33Steven Bartlett?

  And sometimes I tell them, sometimes I just don't have the time to, but sometimes when I, when I look at their profile, as we all do, and I think, oh, fuck's sake, Clive.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:42Steven Bartlett?

  I'll just tell them. Do you ever feel that way?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. You want to know what we should both do because I just had this idea is we, okay, so here's the good news. The good news is we are truly both, I can already tell by talking to you for 10 minutes. Our goal is to inspire and educate young people to start businesses and to do what we've done, right? Because we know the feeling, we know it feels great, we know that it's incredible. Naturally, in the pursuit of doing that, you're gonna have some lost ones, right? And you're gonna make yourself the guy to go to, and you're gonna have some people who just don't get it. But I think what we should do is make a video about how to properly reach out to somebody in a direct message and what certifies a proper reach out. And once you do reach out, here's what you do. And then when people reach out with the wrong one and we have time, just copy and paste them away. And say, hey, I made this for you.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Because all we're doing is continuing to educate and inspire. We're not being assholes. We're not saying, yo, you messed up. Like, we're just saying here, man, you're just not getting it. But that's my point. That's why I say, like, sure, anyone can be an entrepreneur. Whoever raised that kid, or whatever high school he went to, or whatever way that he got that into his head, that that's how you approach a person, is just terribly, terribly wrong. But he could be taught the right way. He just doesn't know. And in their mind, they don't know. They think that that was probably a great idea. I literally set up a, do you guys have Venmo?

• 25:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  So I set up a Venmo account. I will get, I don't, I'm gonna have to figure out how to change my name or whatever, but I will get random requests for like 50 bucks, 100 bucks, whatever, from people saying like, hey, I need to fix my car. Hey, my mom's in the hospital. Hey, whatever. Like, you're just requesting money from me on this money sending out. It's crazy, right? But they don't know. And I think that our goal, at the end of the day, if we really look at it, is to teach more people how to know how to navigate this weird world. Why? Because us now, sitting across from each other, having the joy of traveling and doing a podcast with those successful people, know how incredible it feels. And we want everyone to have that feeling. You know?

• 26:39Steven Bartlett?

  Completely agree. And I think that video idea is actually brilliant. Because it would save me so much. It's more like the frustration of me desperately wanting to reply to everybody and help everybody, but knowing I can't. And seeing, as I said, like, a young guy or a young girl, just being so far from it and wanting to help, but yeah, not realizing.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  And then I end up coming off mad. I don't know about you, but I end up saying, no, are you fucking kidding me, bro? And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not mad at you.

• 27:01Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not mad at them at all. Like, you can message me, whatever, you can call me, whatever you want to say. I get more mad when you let yourself down

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:08Steven Bartlett?

  in such a bad way. And I actually think, on 100% of occasions where I've come back to them, been like, what the fuck are you doing? They've understood why. Because they understand that I don't have time. So the fact that I've, I've taken the time to let them know, they, I, I, virtually all of the time, they say, thank you so much for that. Jumping back a little second to some of the tough times, especially in your personal journey.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:31Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I've, as I said earlier, that I think about entrepreneurship these days because of movies and Instagram is that it's glamorized into being this rock star thing where you get to fly on private jets and eat lovely food and you're rich and therefore because you're rich or happy, all of these kind of like misconceptions. Talk to me about the toughest time you had as an entrepreneur.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So there's been a lot for me, right? And I think more than, you know, I really suffer a lot from glamorized life syndrome, right? Where like when you're on a TV show and then you have this big social media following and whatever, obviously on our TV show, all we did was show fun and just having the time of our lives. And the way I even showed starting the brand looked so fun, but it didn't show any of the real like struggles of any of this stuff, right? And so I have this thing where I think that a lot of people think that it's just been a reality show, like my life has just been this great sort of thing. And what they don't see is what happens underneath all of that to make all this happen. So I think that, you know, my first, there's probably two, and I think the first one was just when I moved to LA, to be honest, I was, I was just lost and scared.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  And like I said, it sounds so embarrassing to admit now, but I, I need to be honest that I just was in over my head and I felt this urge to try to chase this better life, but I was just lost and it felt terrible. And I was having anxiety attacks and I was fresh off this head injury and, you know, I just, I don't know. But the worst part by far was probably three years ago. It was this convergence of all these weird things, like it was a combination of, I think that I had filmed a reality show for the last like nine years and then it was over. And I was so happy that it was over because I didn't like being on TV. I didn't like performing for a camera every day. I didn't like that stuff. But what I missed, what I didn't take into consideration was that it was literally like leaving a business because every day we would go down to this team of people and we had

• 29:23Speaker 01

  been with this team for nine years. And there's people that care about us and that are happy to see us and we're skating together and whatever, and then they're just gone. And I didn't think about that. I was too busy happy about the show being over and not thinking about, okay, I need to fill this gap in my life with something. I also was, just got out of a bad relationship. I also had a couple of friends that had recently got married and were just kind of off in married land, right? And so life felt really lonely. And then on top of all of that, it was right when the worst of like the retail collapse here in the US really started hitting. And for us, I had spent The last, you know, six years focusing on building my business in retail in PacSun, Tilly's, Macy's, Dillard's, all these places. That was my whole life was traveling around,

• 30:08Speaker 01

  meeting with buyers, making sure I could slowly but surely gain more shelf space. And then it really felt like kind of all at once, there was this collapse and PacSun filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and a lot of our other guys were cutting orders and all this crazy stuff was happening. And it wasn't because we had done anything wrong. You know, that was a hard one. When we talk about like owning your losses and stuff like that as an entrepreneur, that was a time when I had to own somebody else's losses and I had to own a market shift. And it hurt. It didn't make sense to me and I felt like it wasn't fair. And then you put all this personal, all these personal issues on top of it. And I literally for about, realistically, I would say a hard six months felt like nothing

• 30:52Speaker 01

  was worth anything. This life that I had built was worth nothing. Getting up every day to come to the office was worth nothing. My relationships I had built was worth nothing. And I was literally, I mean, I say it now, but I was literally going home every night and I would wait. My only self sort of management tool was I would wait until 9:00 PM to start drinking because for some reason if I drank after nine, that felt like I didn't have a problem. So every day of the week I would drink, just chug bottles of wine and take Xanax to go to sleep, take the occasional Vicodin that I had laying around. Like it got like, not like, I'm not like, never turned into like having a drug problem, thank God. But like, it got pretty brutal, you know? It was filling a gap, right? What? It was filling a gap, right?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  It was. And it just felt like, I don't know, it just became kind of the routine. And it really came from all of these things making me feel like nothing was worth it. And there was no upside and this was it. And I had chosen the wrong industry and I had blah, blah, blah. I'm just feeling sorry for myself. I'm feeling stuck. And whatever. So that was probably, that was like a six month timeframe that was like by far the worst, you know, part.

• 32:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that it's it's really reminiscent of my co-founder Dom, who I started the business with, talked about in chapter six, I actually had him on the podcast. In our second year, when things were really tough, we lived together and I would go downstairs most nights and pull a bottle of alcohol off him.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:16Steven Bartlett?

  And he was sat there in the dark drinking. He's he was twenty one at the time, twenty two, but the pressures of the business and trying to pay people's wages and we had at that time, we had about a hundred different wages to pay and you're looking at the banks, you know, the bank balance at all times and it's not working out. And then there's all these personal pressures and having to keep it together for everybody else. And I just think it was just too much for him at that point. And he started doing drugs, as he said in the podcast, started going through mental health battles as well and came out the other side of it. And he's not drank since then. He's not, he runs marathons, he ran like a marathon like last week.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  That's incredible.

• 32:47Steven Bartlett?

  Ran ten K yesterday for charity. He's an ambassador of mental health charities. He's been completely sober ever since and he's just a completely different person.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:55Steven Bartlett?

  But it just goes to show the untold stories of taking on the pressure of running a business whilst also having the pressures of life, right?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's insane. And I was even like you said at that time, because this is the thing, I've always been able to keep this business relatively small. So we've never had hundreds of employees, right? But we had like probably fifty two or something like that. And right now we have, I think, around forty two, if you count the warehouse and everyone. But the point is, I had built like apparel can be a really fun industry, right? It's it's a lot like, you know, being like a rapper, you know, sometimes like you're doing parties and you're hanging out with celebrities and blah, blah. And so what happened was I had built this team of friends and we became really close friends. And so everything we're doing, you know, we're going to South by Southwest in Texas and going to all these festivals and it's so fun. The problem is, when times get tough like that, unfortunately, your friendship doesn't

• 33:43Speaker 01

  pay the bills and you're coming in every day feeling like crap and you're sitting across from your friend who you had all this fun with and you're having to fire them day after day after day, not based on their performance, not based on your friendship, not based on anything but these kind of outside sources. And when we're glamorizing it on YouTube, we're not talking about that. And we're not talking about sitting across the table from your best friend and saying, hey, there's just a job, not a job here for you anymore, which inevitably ruins relationships, right? And yeah, it's a rough thing, but kind of like your friend. I feel so much better having gone through that because now I feel like there is no issue that this business could face that would put me back into that place

• 34:26Speaker 01

  because now I get it and I feel stronger and I feel like I know why I'm doing all the things that I'm doing and if I see a problem coming, I'm able to adjust a little quicker because I know how things can get and it just gave me such a clearer, like stronger foundation from how I run a business that I wouldn't trade for the world.

• 34:43Steven Bartlett?

  And how, if anybody's listening that's going through a similar feeling to what you went through then, or you know remotely likened to what you just described, what advice would you give them?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  The advice is simply this, take the first step to positive, whatever that is, like literally, if you're like, man, one day I'm gonna start running, like literally just go right now and run around your block. Don't worry about how big the goal is or oh, that's not even a real thing or this or that, or I, literally just start the first thing, or here's a book that somebody recommended, screw it, I'm finally gonna read that, or here's a pocket, whatever it is, just do the first thing and the first thing will lead you to the second thing and the second thing will lead you to the third thing and so on, and so on, and so on, and that's how it will happen. Don't try to sit, a lot of times you sit and you come up with all these plans of how life could be better in a different world and all these things

• 35:39Speaker 01

  that you could do or what you lost or whatever, and you make this like mountain for yourself to climb and that's why you feel like you're in this horrible valley because look at what you're looking up at. You just have to start with one piece of forward momentum and let that build and you will be shocked in a year, what happens to your life.

• 35:59Steven Bartlett?

  What did you do?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Exactly that. I literally started, I think the very first thing I did. I'll be honest, I remember the very first thing I did is I went to dinner with some of my friends and I was having like terrible anxiety at dinner because of course all of those feelings and then drinking and all that stuff just give you this terrible social anxiety if you already have it. And my friends, uh, thank God for them, recommended this book. They ask, you know, have you ever done any meditating?

• 36:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, meditating seems crazy to me, right? Like I'm from Ohio. Uh, meditating seems like some weird funky like religious stuff. And they're like, you should really read this book, uh, called 10% happier by Dan Harris. And they're like, trust me, just read it. It'll change your opinion of like what meditating is. So I read that book and it's about a guy who was a news anchor who just had a mental breakdown on air and found meditation and it made him 10% happier. It didn't change his life, it helped. And so I was like, oh, this is cool. So then I started dabbling with meditation. Then I started reading why meditation works. And then that led to this and that led to that. And literally it just led to, then I started this podcast and I didn't realize

• 37:03Speaker 01

  the first 10 episodes I did of the podcast were a nightmare for me. Like I was panicking. I'm like, how do you carry a story? How do you like, this is all on me? I gotta sit here for another hour. Like I'm looking at the clock. But then, you know, you have one conversation where somebody says something cool about a cool book and you go home and read that book. And then somebody else says whatever and somebody else says whatever. And then you're just stacking all of these things. Then I started working out. I started going to cycle class to SoulCycle here in LA. Cause I was like, man, I hate running. It sucks. It's miserable. And I had a friend who was going there and I'm like, yeah, let me try it. And then now you're doing that and you're sweating, you're getting some cardio and it literally just led to this entire shift from following the next thing in front of you.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  To where now I can go on and on for hours about how I structure my day and how I keep track of things and how I blah, blah, blah. And what I do in this and that. And it's all just from experimenting and trying the next thing.

• 37:55Steven Bartlett?

  I imagine your motives for doing what you do have shifted.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:58Steven Bartlett?

  They have for me. When I was 18, I wrote in my diary that I wanted to be a millionaire before I was 25.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:03Steven Bartlett?

  Something I'm quite embarrassed about, but.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Did you make it?

• 38:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I'm twenty, so I'm twenty five now. Yeah, and the next thing I wanted was, so I've got this diary and everyone's seen it. The next thing I wrote in my diary was that a Range Rover Sport would be my first car.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Was that true?

• 38:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, it did. And then my other two, I think I'm still working on, so. Number three was, I wanted to have a long term relationship because I just was allergic to girls because I thought they impinged on my freedom.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:26Steven Bartlett?

  Long story.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:27Steven Bartlett?

  Child issues, whatever.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:29Steven Bartlett?

  I had a girlfriend for a year, which I thought was pretty impressive for me.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:31Steven Bartlett?

  And the other thing was working on my body image. Back then I was super, super skinny because I wasn't eating. I was so, I was completely broke. But my motives for wanting to succeed have shifted. Money has come around in my life, as I'm sure it has in yours. My view on relationship with money has changed. I want to know from your perspective, what role money plays as a motivator in your life?

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, money for me now, and I'm similar to you, right? Like I, you know, I think it was my twenty sixth birthday, I bought a Lamborghini for myself for my birthday, right? Ridiculous. And, and obviously I was much more driven by kind of the fancy things, which, which I also think is like, it's a big part of everyone's early like dreams. And I think it's important to own those things, like those dreams and to go out and to chase them. But it just won't get you to the end of the race, right? And I think that for me, in the beginning, it was much more driven by that. And now, I'm sure similar to you, it's much more driven about how can I continue to spread that message and add real value to the world? Not to be too dramatic, but like, how can I add some value?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  As far as what role money plays now, it's simply like a megaphone to, or an accelerator to anything that I want to do. Like, yes, if I want to start a podcast now, thank God I am able to buy the best equipment, build this cool looking little set here in my office and, you know, get the fancy computer and pay someone to do it. That's incredible, but.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  I use it to simply put fire on a good intention. You know what I'm saying? And I try to do that. I try to really now only spend real money on things that I think I'm just expanding a good intention. But money allows me to do that faster. You know, I don't do the, at least right now, like any crazy outlandish spends and, you know, just for the sake of doing it or to show off or to show how successful I am.

• 40:25Steven Bartlett?

  You said at least right now.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, I'm just saying. I don't want, I don't want someone to hit me up in two years and be like, oh, you just bought a Ferrari, huh? Real cool. But, uh, but no, I don't, I don't, that's not my main concern, right? It's like, how can I use money to expand my goals?

• 40:42Steven Bartlett?

  And does money make you happier?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  That's a tough one because yes, I mean, the answer is yes. It does allow me to, you know, my mom is sick at the moment. I can fly home next week and visit her and sit in a comfy little first class seat and take my girlfriend with me. And, you know, I have the ability to do that. That's incredible. That is definitely happiness. Also, I can set a goal of creating a podcast, doing these different things, and I can pay to at least get it started. So it definitely does enhance my life. But if everything goes bad and I lose all my friends and my family and everything, I can, I just sit at home in a bathtub full of money and feel all right? No, that'll never work. You know what I mean? So it's kind of to that extent.

• 41:29Steven Bartlett?

  So what are the things that do give you your personal happiness? You've talked about having a positive impact and creating value for the world. What are the other things that you think as an entrepreneur? Because here's the question I'm trying to get at, I guess, is much of the narrative that I got fed, I think as an entrepreneur, when I was building my business was that you do it for the money. You become this internet rock star if you become a real successful entrepreneur. And then you just sacrifice everything else because nothing else really matters as much. And one of the things that I've come to learn over the last probably like six months is the importance of creating a sustainable life outside of just hustling my life away. And, and I'm somebody who like doesn't see my mom and dad. Like I've, like, I've probably not seen my mom and dad for like.

• 42:12Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know, maybe a year. I probably only see them in December at Christmas.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 42:15Steven Bartlett?

  And the same applies for like my friends. If you don't work at Social Chain

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:19Steven Bartlett?

  in one of, in one of the offices around the world, you're probably not my friend. You know what I mean? I have one friend outside my company.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:26Steven Bartlett?

  The more and more I've read, the more and more I think maybe I've got it wrong to some degree because I've put too much emphasis on the working part of my life. And this kind of false assumption that at some point it'll all be over and then I'll just go back and really sort of reignite those friendships.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  It's so true.

• 42:41Steven Bartlett?

  But I'm going to be an entrepreneur forever.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 42:43Steven Bartlett?

  So I have to build a sustainable life now. I just wanted to know your thoughts on, on that.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're dead on. And I think that for whatever reason, we're taught that like hard work wins. So if you just scale the hard work and you just work harder and harder and harder, you're going to win bigger and bigger and bigger. And that makes you a better and better entrepreneur. And I think that that's a false story. And I think that it's unfortunate that it is part of the story. And I think that when you talk to truly smart, successful, stable human beings, they know that. They know that that's a sham, right? And, and they are balanced. And they do have happy families that they care about, and that's what keeps them going. And I think at the end of the day, if you don't have good friends and family and relationships, what are you even doing it all for? And we all have that same notion

• 43:31Speaker 01

  that one day you're going to be able to just hang it up and just go bask in family time. And that day never comes. It literally never comes because even if you sold all your businesses and you made hundreds of millions of dollars and you went and spent time with your family, you'd last how long? Six months at best? Until you'd be like, yeah. You'd be like, all right, well, what's my next business idea? It's just how we're wired. So I think that to kind of blend those two like questions together, what makes me happy is this. Yes, friends make me happy. Family makes me happy, all that stuff. But I think that what really drives me more than anything is figuring out how to do this whole thing better. And if every day I feel like I truly became a better human being,

• 44:13Speaker 01

  then I feel good. I feel happy. I feel content. You know what I mean? Like if, if we know, okay, we're both really busy, but I love my mom and I, and I know how much I mean to my mom. So how can I?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Make that work. And there's a way, there's a way. I mean, it sounds messed up to like, schedule your mom into your day. But if that's what you have to do, that's what you do. And you schedule that time and you have a phone conversation or a FaceTime or whatever. You're just getting better. You're being a better son, a better boyfriend, a better husband, a better whatever. And I just want to continue to become a better human. And I want one day to be able to sit on a podcast and say, or have a conversation with you and say, man, like, this is what I do with my family. This is what I do with my children one day. This is what I do with my business. And you'd be like, damn, that's it.

• 45:02Steven Bartlett?

  You've got it figured out.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  You know, you got it figured out. But that's only going to come from small progress every single day, right?

• 45:08Steven Bartlett?

  Speaking about children, are you in a relationship?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  I have a girlfriend.

• 45:12Steven Bartlett?

  You have a girlfriend?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:13Steven Bartlett?

  How has holding down a relationship? People always get nervous when I ask these kind of questions.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't mind, I don't mind, I don't mind.

• 45:19Steven Bartlett?

  How has?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 45:21Steven Bartlett?

  You're sweating. No, I'm joking, I'm joking. How has being an entrepreneur and being ambitious and pursuing your goals impacted your ability to hold down romantic relationships?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  So it's hard. It's been hard my whole life. It is extremely hard, no way around it. I think that the biggest thing is, especially in LA, I'm sure it happens everywhere, but one of the biggest things I've faced is like, girls can't understand that I just really care about my work. And it always is like, like, you're cheating or like, where are you, you know? Where are you really? And, you know, and it's like, man, you can't understand. And I've actually had multiple girlfriends come back after, years later and say like, I wish I knew. Like, I wish I knew that this is truly, you know, because they see it as I progress. And they're like, man, I wish I knew that that was truly what you were involved in. And, and I think that's the hardest part is understanding that there are no hours and understanding that I might,

• 46:14Speaker 01

  you know, I might be leaving here and say, hey, we're going to go get dinner at seven. And I have to go to a meeting at seven that comes up 30 minutes before and I have to. And.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  That's just an ongoing everlasting struggle. But I will say this, the girlfriend that I have currently is amazing and also has dreams of starting a business and so she understands that and she's very.

• 46:38Steven Bartlett?

  Does she understand?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  She does.

• 46:40Steven Bartlett?

  Does she fully understand?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  She's so far, so far.

• 46:42Steven Bartlett?

  How long's it been?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Five months.

• 46:44Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  So we'll see, to be determined, to be determined. But, but so far it's been very like, because she understands like the, the work that it takes and the whatever and she's like happy for those. If a meeting comes up and it's whatever, she's like happy that an opportunity came up that's worth it. We'll see. We, I have not experienced it yet.

• 47:05Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  But that's the only reason, I mean, I wouldn't be saying all this and then say I'm in a relationship now that has the same problems, right? That would just be stupid of me. So as of right now, that seems to be.

• 47:17Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think part of the reason why so far it's gone well with this particular relationship is because she's came into your life at this stage?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I think that's definitely a huge part of it. You know, I think that one thing that's funny is like, once again, going back to like reality show days and keep in mind, I was the same guy that had a Lamborghini at age 26. You're not exactly attracting like the most level-headed understanding, you know what I mean? And I think that like, this is the first one that I've dated since I had a podcast and since I've been posting on my Instagram, like what cool books people should go buy. And so I think she came into it with a little bit of a different mindset. I think that you are right. Yeah, I, I think, I think if you attract someone through the, the, the means that you actually care about and you're actually you and you're not popping bottles at a club and like, hey, what's up, girl? You want my girlfriend?

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it helps, but I, I'm not going to claim to have the solution, but I think it definitely helped on this one.

• 48:16Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think this is the least chaotic part of your life?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Which part?

• 48:20Steven Bartlett?

  This part.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Being here?

• 48:22Steven Bartlett?

  Like what you're doing right now.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:24Steven Bartlett?

  This is the least chaotic part.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love this part. This part's great because you just get to like, talk about how great everything is and try to spread some positivity and some words of wisdom and have a good conversation with somebody else who's interesting, right? I love it. When I do my podcast, I love it. I never thought, it started off as pure fear and terror and anxiety. And now it's like so relaxing because you get to just have a conversation. There's no agenda. I don't need to impress. I don't need to sell something. Yeah, I love it.

• 48:49Steven Bartlett?

  The girl you're dating at the moment, is she independent? Here's a theory that I've been sitting on for a little while. I'm trying to diagnose why all my relationships haven't worked.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:59Steven Bartlett?

  Virtually all of them. And I think I've gone into relationships in moments of my life, which have, I would say, high chaos. But I also think that because I'm such a naturally independent person, like I was, I stopped going to school when I was 16. I dropped out of university or college when I was 18. I've always, much like you by the sounds of it, wanted to be my own boss and control my own, you know, destiny. I'm also a young guy that grew up with two parents that just hated each other, right? They screamed at each other all the time. So my impression of what a relationship was, was like prison. It was just stress. And I used to tell my dad, like, don't let her talk to you like that when I was 10.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:36Steven Bartlett?

  So my whole model of what a relationship is, is just this drain. So that's part of the reason why none of my relationships have ever worked. But in more recent times, I've come to believe that when you're an independent person, if someone is dependent on you, they challenge your sense of independence.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:54Steven Bartlett?

  And really, I want to be my girlfriend's second priority.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:00Steven Bartlett?

  I want her life. Do you get, do you get me?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 50:03Steven Bartlett?

  I want her to be so preoccupied with her life, her own things, her own future, that she doesn't even know that I missed the 7pm date. But you know, because she's also got to miss it. Do you know what I mean?

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 50:12Steven Bartlett?

  That kind of thing. So what's your thoughts on that?

• 50:14Speaker 01

  I think it's true. I think that like, one of the worst things are relationships that I've been in where like 4pm, you start getting the texts of like, hey, where are you? Like, what time you think you'll be home? Like, I'm just here on the couch, you know, like, and you're just like, oh, like, I need to work, you know, like, I don't want to feel obligated to like, take care of this person or entertain this person. I don't want to claim to know like the secret formula or I'm not yet. I need another year before I'll start to give advice. But I will say, because I also don't want to jinx myself. But I will say that I think that there is a special combination that makes the perfect, we'll say entrepreneur's girlfriend that is very much so that. And I think at the same time, let me tell you a weird thing about myself.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I also, when I do get a moment to relax and spend time with my girlfriend, I want a lot of affection and attention. You know what I'm saying? And so that's another hard thing. Like it's hard to find a girl that will let you miss the dinner because she's going to miss it too. But she's not doing anything shady. You know what I'm saying? Because yeah, there's girls that don't care, but those girls are not the type of girls you want to date. Right? It's like being there and being supportive and being affectionate at the right times and being extremely understanding is a really hard balance to find. But I think that somebody that truly understands and is proud, truly proud of that meeting that you had to cancel your dinner because you are making progress and that makes her so happy.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  And then when you get home is going to just love you like nobody else. That's a dream come true. I understand why it's hard, but that's like, that's the dream. But you just have to be understanding and you have to not be, you know, jealous or worry about cheating. If you have a girlfriend that's on edge about every, every guy's a cheater, that sort of thing, you're screwed.

• 52:04Steven Bartlett?

  I completely agree. So taking it in a conscious, we've not got a huge amount of time left. Taking it in a more, I'm just going to try and hit you with some tough questions.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Steven Bartlett?

  Right? I don't know what they are yet, but I'm going to think of some.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 52:14Steven Bartlett?

  Okay. So first tough question. If you were to die today.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:18Steven Bartlett?

  Would you be happy with the life you've lived? And what would you regret?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I will say yes. Because I do believe that like. I pushed it, you know what I mean like, am I content, am I ready to go? Absolutely not. There's so much more for me to do. But would I like have any major regrets or be like, man, this isn't fair. I didn't get a chance to like, nah, like I didn't whatever. No, like, I think I've pushed it. I've lived way beyond what I ever thought I was gonna live. Meaning experiences and success and the love that I've received and like, I don't know, I'm really humbled by that. But I'm not ready to go. So universe give me plenty of time.

• 53:04Steven Bartlett?

  Next question.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  What would I regret? Sorry. What I regret is, uh, I don't, maybe that thing, maybe not spending more time like with my family.

• 53:11Steven Bartlett?

  That's what you.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Loved ones. Yeah.

• 53:12Steven Bartlett?

  Are you doing anything about that?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just trying to do that thing that we were talking about. I'm trying to figure out how to be. A better son. Like I started with, I call or text my mom every day. No question about it.

• 53:24Steven Bartlett?

  When did you start that?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Eight or nine months ago. So I would go like three or four days without calling or texting. I just didn't think about it. And now it's literally a note on my phone every day that I have to do. And she loves it and it's been great. And now I just do it out of habit and it's amazing. But I need to go home more. I only go home for Christmas in December. I need to go home more. I need to just. Do those things. Go home three times a year, call every day, FaceTime every Saturday, whatever it is, but just. Up that.

• 53:51Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, cool. Next question. What do people give you credit for that you don't deserve? This is kind of trying to sniff out the fraud in all of us, I guess. Because that fraud exists in all of us. The definition of a fraud, you know, I guess is not actually true because, you know, none of us are. Perfect. But what are those things within you that you think you might get credit for that really you don't deserve credit for?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  That's a tough one. I, I think that like. The part that makes me kind of feel that way is when people. Say like, your podcast changed my life or your this thing changed my life. I don't, I think that's a little like premature and a little like. Over exaggerated, you know, like I think I'm doing an okay job and I'm getting there and we're getting some real stuff, but like. To say that I changed someone's life or something like that is a little aggressive. That's the one that I feel. Hopefully, one day I want to receive that compliment or that statement and believe it. And say like, you know what, I think I did because I've been doing enough stuff that I'm out here changing lives. Right now, I don't feel that way.

• 54:54Steven Bartlett?

  So that's just relative to your own ambition, right?

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:57Steven Bartlett?

  And because you're so far from where you want to take it, that you just don't think.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I just think people are real quick to like, listen to a good podcast and say, bro, you changed my life. It's like, did I really? Like, are you really, did I really give you enough actionable things that you made a difference? Or are you just inspired right now? You know what I mean? And I, my goal is to honestly give enough actionable advice and direction and whatever to where I could say I actually did that.

• 55:21Steven Bartlett?

  In my little sort of notes for meeting you today, one of the things I had written down on there was Jake Paul copied your design.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah. That little bastard.

• 55:31Steven Bartlett?

  Just for context, someone sent me photos of it. I was actually gonna meet Jake Paul out here. I was gonna meet him yesterday before his tour rehearsal. I've got no beef with Jake.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:40Steven Bartlett?

  Power to everybody doing their own thing, whatever.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:42Steven Bartlett?

  But I saw the design that Jake did for his merch and it's identical to some of your stuff, yeah? How does that make you feel? What did you do?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be honest, I just think it's corny as shit. And I think that like, the one problem that I have with those guys.

• 55:58Steven Bartlett?

  The Team Ten guys?

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Uh, no, the Paul brothers.

• 56:00Steven Bartlett?

  Jake Paul, right.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Is, this is the thing, I'm very similar to you. I support anyone making a name for themselves, getting money, doing their thing. I really do. And those guys are from Ohio. And when I started Young and Reckless, they used to hit me up all the time and ask for gear. We used to send them gear and ask if they could do anything to support and it was great. The only thing that I don't like about how they operate and I don't think is a good example is they operate sometimes at the detriment to other people. And like, that thing happened with Logan Paul and the suicide thing and then all this different stuff. And it's like, man, you don't realize, like, I'm no Mother Teresa by any means. But like, you don't realize that there are fundamental values here that you are teaching people that it's okay to disregard.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Like other people, entire. And I think that that's really whack and really lame and I don't care about any of the goofy stuff they do. I just don't like that. So when it comes to the shirt, I think like, ah, it's just you guys being you guys. It's just corny and cheesy and you just, you don't care about other people's stuff. And what you took and the fact that I used to send you clothes. Like just be like, yo, bro, shit's crazy. Sorry about that. Like do anything, but they don't care. They're, they're just, you know, they're just.

• 57:12Steven Bartlett?

  Did you contact them?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. I'd sent a, a post to Instagram and said like, damn, bro, I thought we were friends, but that's it. I don't care. I'm not gonna like, sue you or like, you know what I mean? I, I've made my mistake. I've, I've had designs that were copyright infringements close to other people's stuff. Yes, that was a direct knockoff. No way for that to be a coincidence. But like, whatever. They're young and stupid. I don't, I don't really care. It's flattering.

• 57:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's good that you can see that way. That's a, a sign of maturity for sure.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if you lose your mind over stuff like that, then apparel is not the industry for you, right?

• 57:44Steven Bartlett?

  Dinner party, there's four seats. No, in fact, there's six seats, right? So I'm in one of them because I'm cooking, Uber Eats, whatever. You're in the other seat. There's four seats remaining.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:53Steven Bartlett?

  Um, who do you invite to this dinner party, dead or alive? And why?

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good.

• 58:00Steven Bartlett?

  Anybody that's ever lived.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I feel like I'm gonna come up short on the anyone that's ever lived. Because like, there's probably somebody like from, I, I would say this what comes to mind.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Barack Obama.

• 58:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. I don't have to ask why. I'd just take that one.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not even political. It's just like.

• 58:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  I think Tupac.

• 58:25Steven Bartlett?

  Right? Interesting.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Oprah.

• 58:28Steven Bartlett?

  All black table.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  I know, man. It's funny because I literally in my, in my office at home, in my office at home, I printed out like the, I think it's like six or eight people that really inspire me and they're literally all blacks. Like Maya Angelou, whatever. And I'm like, damn, is this like, was I born in the wrong body? And then I think, uh, I think Steve Jobs.

• 58:46Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  As the last, there's four?

• 58:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's it. Yeah, for sure.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:50Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. It shows your, your influence, I guess.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you know what? I'll tell you, I'm fascinated by what, what the through line is in those people is overcoming everyone telling you, you can't do something, like literally everyone in the world and like completely pioneering uncharted territory. Those are two things that I am fascinated by.

• 59:12Steven Bartlett?

  And on that point then, what is the, you meet 18 year old Chris.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:16Steven Bartlett?

  Today. What is it you say to him? And I don't mean like, what advice would you give him? What is, I guess, I guess I do mean what advice you'd give him. What, what are the, if you just had 60 seconds to talk to him and just tell him the things, the real sort of secrets, the keys that you know now. What would you say to him?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  I would say to spend more time learning.

• 59:37Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  And more time soaking in the things around you and the things available to you.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  And the time will come to apply it, right? Like, you're gonna use that information once you have it. And I've never had a problem doing. But I think like just shutting up and learning a little better and asking more questions and stop acting like at 21, you're too worried about being the dumb one at the table and trying to shine, trying to output when you should just be in taking, you know what I mean? Just shut up and, and, and take in and learn. And you'll have plenty of time to shine later. Is I think what I would say.

• 1:00:19Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. Cool. Well, that's all my questions.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  We did it, man. That was amazing.

• 1:00:23Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you for, for taking the time. I appreciate it.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was incredible.

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  I think you're, you're going to resonate with a lot of people. Where do people find you on, on Instagram?

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  The main place on Instagram, uh, where I'm the most active is just at Drama.

• 1:00:33Steven Bartlett?

  And if they want to hear more of you in a vocal sense, what's your podcast?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  That's the podcast, uh, Short Story Long on everywhere where podcasts are.

• 1:00:39Steven Bartlett?

  Incredible podcast I hear.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 1:00:41Steven Bartlett?

  Good guests on there.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  I really appreciate, yeah, I'm trying to really just up the like, I want to hear the stories of how people really became who they are. And I'm fascinated by like, bringing it down to human level. Like, don't give me the fluffed up interview that you would give ESPN. You know, like, tell me the reality. When did you want to quit? When did you want to whatever? And I've learned so much just from doing it. And almost every time I drive home, I'm so gassed up and inspired, you know? So I'm just trying to get better at it.

• 1:01:09Steven Bartlett?

  For sure.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Trying to deliver the information better.

• 1:01:11Steven Bartlett?

  How many episodes you on now?

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  I just did 100 last week.

• 1:01:13Steven Bartlett?

  100?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  Damn.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Steven Bartlett?

  How, when did you start?

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  It was just about two years ago.

• 1:01:18Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:19Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Thank you, man. This was really good.

• 1:01:23Steven Bartlett?

  New followers and fans, I hope you do from this. I'm sure we'll on a personal level reconnect more because of this. So thanks. I appreciate you.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you.