Valentine’s Day Romance vs Reality and Falling Head-Over-Heels for Food!!

Adrienne and Joe are digging into the busiest restaurant holiday of the year: Valentine’s Day. They tell us why the prix fixe menu is essential to success, operational challenges when everyone needs a two-top, and what chefs really think of the holiday. Plus, we discuss: Special Valentine's Day menus: Expectations vs. Reality How chefs would rather spend the holiday when they have the day off Restaurant friendships and how to maintain your bond after someone moves on The real drama of workplace breakups Playing games with your fellow chefs to maintain motivation Turn and Burn: Lava Cake vs Chocolate Soufflé Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on the chef's cut, we are pulling back the curtain on how chefs really feel about Valentine's Day in restaurants. Every year, we call it the Valentine's Day massacre. The real reason that your favorite restaurant has a special Valentine's Day menu.

• 0:18Joe Flamm?

  The expectation from most guests is like, it's a special day. I need a special menu.

• 0:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  And we reflect on how to keep the flame burning with those very special work relationships.

• 0:29Joe Flamm?

  It's like seeing your ex with like, you know, their new person and you're like, oh, really?

• 0:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week, we are really going to focus on Valentine's Day because we get a lot of questions as chefs and as people who work in the hospitality industry. A lot of people want to know, they actually care, what it's like on the other side on Valentine's Day in restaurants. My perspective is that a lot of people put pressure on celebrating it. You know, girlfriends, boyfriends, new relationships, marriages. Some people put a lot of pressure on celebrating Valentine's Day. A lot of people do that by going somewhere to eat. That equals busy restaurants and restaurant reservations. So, you know, let's get into

• 1:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  the weeds a little bit on Valentine's Day. And, you know, I like my, my new segments and names. So in the weeds is where we're gonna go in

• 1:26Joe Flamm?

  Where we go.

• 1:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Into depth on Valentine's Day.

• 1:29Joe Flamm?

  I'm with it. I'm with it. I will go, I will walk into the weeds with you.

• 1:35Joe Flamm?

  You're a little bit shorter, so I'll hold your hand and pull you up so you can see.

• 1:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you. Like that time in Colorado where I couldn't see over the, uh, the blinds when we got to Aspen for our finale.

• 1:46Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, that was, I forgot about that. That was hilarious.

• 1:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  You were like, oh my God, this.

• 1:49Joe Flamm?

  I was like, look at that view. You're like, I can't see shit.

• 1:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then you pulled a chair so I could stand up on the chair. I was like, oh, wow, that's actually gorgeous.

• 1:55Joe Flamm?

  Always a gentleman.

• 1:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, okay, Joe, what is Valentine's Day to you? Do you love it or do you hate it?

• 2:05Joe Flamm?

  I don't think it's like, I love it or hate it. It's not like as polarizing to me as that. It's one of those days where it's like, I think Valentine's Day in general is insane. But you know what I mean? I think like from a restaurant perspective, it's like, it does put a lot of pressure on us, right? Because there's kind of two camps. There's the people who think like, oh, I don't want to do anything for Valentine's Day. I just want to be able to go have a normal dinner. But most of the people out there, I've given calls, you know, a couple of weeks ago already, like a month out, where people are like, well, what's your Valentine's Day menu? What are you doing special? I need something special. It's got to be special. So it's like having four restaurants now, it's like I have three where it's like, we have to run special prefix menus. We need to be able to do it for two days. You got to do it the Friday and Saturday. But it's like, you got to do it for two days.

• 2:49Joe Flamm?

  You need to have, you know, a special menu, do all these things. Because it's like, I think sometimes you get the outside perspective of people like, it's Valentine's Day, it's a hot night. So like restaurants just want to like jack everything up. And I'm sure there's some of that too. But it's like, but the expectation from most guests is like, it's a special day. I need a special menu. I'm trying to do something special and I need you to help facilitate that for me. Right? And so it's like, we have to be able to do that. We have to be able to curate a special experience for them. Now, having four restaurants, it's like, I have one where in like Bartuto, where it's like, you know, casual, more like neighborhood hangout, right? So like that one, it's like, no, we're not doing anything. But I think it's nice that it's like now, it's like I have that option too of like, hey, if you just want to go out to dinner, come to dinner.

• 3:34Joe Flamm?

  You know, but like most of the people, they want that special occasion. You know, like steakhouse, it's crazy. But the other thing I think people don't realize, like the weirdest thing about Valentine's Day, is like a normal service, you get a mix of tables, right? You have two tops, you have four tops, threes, fives, sixes, sevens, eights, nines. Valentine's Day, you look at those spreads and it's like, if you're doing 300 people, you're doing 150 tables.

• 3:57Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, you have to bring an extra two tops and you have to like, look at all this stuff and all your big tables. You know, we have a couple of six tops at Rosemary where it's like borderline probably won't use those.

• 4:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 4:07Joe Flamm?

  For two days. Cause no, we're not going to have a six top for two days.

• 4:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 4:11Joe Flamm?

  You're only gonna have like two, two, two, two. That's not how you run a normal service. So it's just like, makes it like a weird, different pressure on it. So it's like a whole unique weird kind of beast to it where it's like, and people put a lot of pressure on it and they want it to like, really be, you know, like, oh my God, I want this to be the most, you know, romantic night of my life. And it's like, hey, we're gonna make it super delicious. We're gonna make it super delicious and super nice, but I can't make you better at conversation. You know what I mean? If you, if you didn't have any game before you showed up here, like, I'm not doing a one hour crash course on like, how to talk to somebody before you go. Yeah, I should. Maybe that should be an offer, you know, part of

• 4:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hey, maybe you have a conversation starter card on the table. So people can keep their conversation lively and going during their romantic dinner.

• 4:57Joe Flamm?

  Hey, it's not a bad idea.

• 4:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  See, okay, when I was in restaurants, it was the thing that I hated about Valentine's Day every year, without a doubt, is it comes smack in the middle of the slow season. So after the holidays, after New Year's, restaurants usually go through a lull where it's slow because it's also really cold outside if you live in the north. So it's super cold. Not a lot of people are going out. Your staffing, less people, your team is not at the same rhythm for doing a super busy night. And then you just get hit in the face with Valentine's Day. And we used, every year, we called it the Valentine's Day massacre. Every restaurant I worked at, we always, we always call it, guys, ready for the Valentine's

• 5:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Day massacre? Let's go. Because you're gonna get your butt kicked all night. You're not, you're not at that, that level of doing like, you know, turning and burning and just going through service so fast. And then you're just all of a sudden going from cooking for a hundred people on Tuesday to cooking for 350 on Wednesday because it's Valentine's Day.

• 6:05Joe Flamm?

  And especially it's like, you know, if you have a really cold February, you could go from cooking for 50 people on Tuesday. Or especially in fine dining, you know, you could go from 20 to 200.

• 6:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, hey, you want to go for a jog? It's like, yeah, okay. And then it's like, all right, now we're gonna sprint for six hours until we puke. And it's like, what do you mean?

• 6:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 6:27Joe Flamm?

  Uh, like that's just.

• 6:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's a gut punch. It's just a huge.

• 6:31Joe Flamm?

  That's always like the blessing and the curse of it. It's like, you know, you're like this. It's been super cold in Chicago. So it's like, everybody's like, oh yeah, can't wait for Valentine's Day because you know, it's great business, right? So it's like something that, you know, business wise, you you look forward to.

• 6:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, Joe, listeners want to know, and this is something that we have fielded through Instagram. Are restaurants taking advantage of people on Valentine's Day with the expensive Valentine's Day prefix or the expensive Valentine's tasting menu?

• 7:02Joe Flamm?

  I mean, it depends on the place. This is my perspective. It's like, I think it's like, if you do it nice, like it's, it's really nice. You know what I mean? Like we do really thoughtful menus and we try to make it like, oh, what would be a good menu for two people to have together where it's not like so crazy filling. So if you have, you know, romantic plans afterwards, you can, you know, attend to those plans.

• 7:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 7:25Joe Flamm?

  But it's like, but I think, yeah, some places it's like, you look at it and you're like, that's crazy. Um, yeah. I mean, they do a lot of weird stuff where it's like, you know, but I think it's like one of those things. It's like, you have to have that offering because there's such a massive call for it. So it's like, as a restaurant, you know, you're damned if you do, you damned if you don't. You know, if you do it, people are going to say that. They're like, oh, you're just trying to take advantage of it. If you don't do it, people are going to not come because they're like, well, I want a special experience because you know, me and Boo Boo Bear are coming in and you know, Boo Boo Bear only wants the finest. And so it's like, you know, it's, it's one of those like tight reps to walk. So that's why it's like for me this year, having the four restaurants. It's like, it's nice to have the one to be like, hey, if you're not about all that, I got you. Come over here. I

• 8:07Joe Flamm?

  think one of the things I really like about doing like special prefix menus is like for us, it's like, you know me, like I'm a super hard copy person. Like I write notebooks. I love hard copy cookbooks. The idea of like, you get a physical menu that's just for that night. Like, I do really like that. Like, I know it's cheesy, but it's like, I love the idea of like having like a physical, tax style menu like I could take with me if I want.

• 8:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they don't need it for tomorrow because it's not Valentine's Day anymore.

• 8:33Joe Flamm?

  But like, this is the menu we had that night. Like, you know what I mean? I have some saved old menus from like travels and like dinners Hill and I have had together. I've had with friends over the years. Like, I think like having that, you know what I mean, thing when our memories is so tied to food. Like I said, like, I think, you know what I mean? Like, the cynical part of it, you can look at it, whatever you wait, you want, but I think that's Valentine's Day in general. You know what I mean?

• 8:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I like the, the prefix menus from an operational perspective. I like them because you know that eighty-five to ninety percent of the people dining at a restaurant that night are going to order that Valentine's special menu. So it kind of eases up the fact that your staff is not up to the flow of being so busy because you're picking up multiple of the same dish back to back. So, you know, after the first five, you're more efficient, you're better at it. So I like it from that perspective because it helps the restaurant kind of streamline service, which means the customer is getting better food. Instead of having to cook like twenty-two different dishes on one station,

• 9:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  you're able to focus on really making this one dish over and over and making it better and better each time for the guests. So I'm, I'm for it. I'm for it, you know?

• 9:47Joe Flamm?

  Okay, so let me ask you a question then. Now, you're not working a Valentine's Day service. So Valentine's Day night, you going out?

• 9:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, no.

• 10:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Absolutely not.

• 10:03Joe Flamm?

  Well, are you cooking at home? Are you gonna make, you know what I mean? A nice little special prefix?

• 10:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  So that depends. If it's Friday, I have to do dinner for, for my private client. If it's Saturday, I'm off. And I would happily cook something. I've actually done tasting menus for Stephen before at home. Starting off with like a razor clam ceviche, ending on like a lobster tail with red wine.

• 10:30Joe Flamm?

  So this is my, this is my question about that of doing a tasty menu at home. So you're plating a course, sitting down, eating a course, and then getting up? Going to do the next course.

• 10:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  But everything is like par cooked and prepped out. Or depending on what the next course is, I can pop the vegetables in the oven to warm while we're eating the previous course. Like I can, you know.

• 10:51Joe Flamm?

  I just like the idea of like, you're in the middle of a dinner conversation and you're just like, just give me one sec. And then you like go to bed.

• 10:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, we have, we have our kitchen counters. So like Steven and I'll turn on the sexy lights and sit on the other side. And then I'll just pop around the counter, pull the stuff out of the oven, plate it, go sit back down.

• 11:09Joe Flamm?

  Also in my head, like when you go to the other side of the counter, you like go into like chef mode and you're like, so how is everything?

• 11:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  The hair immediately gets pulled up.

• 11:17Joe Flamm?

  Are you, are you having a good time? Yeah. Like your date seems really nice. Um, you know, like.

• 11:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell yeah. As soon as I step into the kitchen, like I immediately, I take my hair clip, my hair goes up, you know, it's like all different chef mode.

• 11:30Joe Flamm?

  Mark, mark the ticket.

• 11:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  I have my dry erase, first course out, second course out. I would have to say, Joe, that at this point in both of our careers, we are past situationships with food and the food industry. We are in long-term relationships, probably one of the longest standing relationships I've ever had in my life has been with food and the food industry.

• 11:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. You know, me and the food industry have four kids together, you know?

• 11:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  You do. You just, you just gave birth to the fourth one recently. It's like, you know, being in food is like saying you're married to your job, but kind of on steroids because it goes beyond being just a job. It is a, a lifestyle. It's so much more than that.

• 12:13Joe Flamm?

  Right. And you're married to a crazy person that everybody's like, why are you married to this person? And you're like, I just love them. I just, I just love them so much. You don't see what I see in them. And they're like, no, I don't. They seem insane.

• 12:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Relationship.

• 12:27Joe Flamm?

  They're like, they seem completely insane. And like, this is horrible and terrible. Like all you do is like complain about this. And you're like, I know, but I love them.

• 12:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Joe, I want to ask you a few questions about your relationship with food and the food industry. So let's look at it in terms of the stages of a relationship. What would you say was your first date?

• 12:47Joe Flamm?

  I mean, really like, you know, I started working with this when I was 16. And so it was like, you know, bar grill, like working for my buddy's dad. And that was like, you know, my first introduction to it. You know what I mean? The first time meeting them where you're like, oh. Why do I feel this way? You know, it feels different. And, and it did. And I feel like because it's like, you know, especially like in high school, you're looking for a sense of belonging somewhere, right? And I think that's where, you know, in my life where it's like you've got in trouble or you, you either get in trouble or you find something good. Cause you find either a sense of belonging with a bunch of people you shouldn't be with. But also like a restaurant, it felt like the first place where I was like, oh, this makes sense.

• 13:32Joe Flamm?

  I feel like I belong. You know what I mean? There's, there's a sense of belonging to working in a restaurant where it's like, and I think it's the same thing people get from being on like a team that they really like. And I think you hear people talk about it when they stop playing sports or stop doing stuff of like, they miss being on a team. They miss being part of that. And I think it's something you've talked about, you know, since not working in restaurant kitchens anymore, where it's like you miss that sense of team, right? You miss that camaraderie. And I think like that sense of team and camaraderie of a restaurant was what I fell in love with right away.

• 14:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  So that's your first date, the moment you fell in love. What was the honeymoon phase?

• 14:11Joe Flamm?

  I mean, I think the honeymoon phase was that phase was, you know, 16 to 19, working in restaurants. I felt like I lived a different life than everyone I knew. You know what I mean? I worked late. I got to be out at hours that, you know, 16 and 17 year olds didn't get to be out at. You know what I mean? I worked at a bar that closed at 2:00 AM on Saturday nights. I was driving home at three in the morning, you know, like, and it's like most of my friends, like their curfew was four hours before that. But that era of it, it just, I felt like the coolest. I liked when people I knew came into the restaurants. I liked that I knew the people who were regulars. I liked that I knew everybody on the staff and we were friends. And I was friends with all these older people who were like, cool. Like that part of it, it was such a, it was so intoxicating. You know what I mean?

• 14:53Joe Flamm?

  I just was, I was part of a grown up world where everywhere else I was treated like, you know, I'm a, I'm a kid in high school, right?

• 15:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 15:01Joe Flamm?

  But like when I was there, I was just part of the team. And I got to, I got to live in a world where it's like people talk to me like an adult. I was in adult conversations way beyond my depths for the time, for better or worse.

• 15:15Joe Flamm?

  But I think like, that's, you know, where it really was for me. And then I think even, you know, when you first get into cooking, those line cook years, like, I don't know if you can call them the honeymoon years. I don't know how you look back at them. It's like, I kind of look back at them like, they're almost like the college for us, right? Where you're like those line cook years where you're like in college and it was crazy and you're a party and like it was a shit show and like it wasn't great, but it was awesome.

• 15:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  So it was really awesome. I don't know if I look at my line cook days as a honeymoon phase for sure. I mean, I would consider my first date with the food industry, being behind the scenes when my mom worked in restaurants, doing my homework in the non-smoking section, mopping bathrooms, bussing tables for as unglamorous as it was, that was my first date. That's where I was getting to know restaurants and did I think I would see them again? Wasn't so sure at the time. But then I did start to fall in love with it because of those memories growing up. To me, that was like where you feel accepted. You know, I was, I was sick and I was a little bit of an outsider when I was younger at school.

• 16:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Definitely caught some, some heat from some bullies and being in restaurants is where I felt safe. That's where I felt like people loved me. Nobody was judging. Nobody was looking at me crazy for being the sick kid. You know, it was just like they loved me. They protected me like that felt like home. So that was kind of how I fell in love with them. And that's why I came back as I got older. But it was really kind of like my first line cook job in Orlando. I had applied for prep cook position and somebody had no call, no showed. So I show up to be a prep cook for that shift and they're like, scratch that, you're on the line. I was like, oh dear God. It went south in so many ways and

• 17:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  the sous chef had to come bail me out of my station. I got on the station with no training, no concept of what the dishes on the station were. I mean, it was kind of their fault for doing that, but they just needed a body on the station. But it was a moment that I really fell in love with it because it's so tactile. It's like, here's a problem, you solve it, you go on to the next and you're doing that every 30 seconds. And I was like, oh my God, this is like intoxicating. I am.

• 17:30Joe Flamm?

  It's instant gratification over and over and over again. And it's that feeling of, you know, I think when people talk about like, I don't fucking golf, but people who golf are like, oh, you hit that one good shot and that's what keeps you going. And I think those early cooking days, it's like. You get that one nice knife cut. You plate the one plate that like looks perfect and you're like, you're chasing that feeling.

• 17:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Nailed it. Gotta do that again. I feel like my honeymoon phase was when I worked in pastry at a resort on the Gulf of Mexico. That for me, because it was, it was so OCD. If you mess something up, it's because you deviated from the recipes. You didn't check the humidity monitor on the wall and adjust as the recipe book said. So I'm getting constant praise, right? Because I know how to follow a recipe.

• 18:16Joe Flamm?

  Everything you just described is my literal fucking nightmare. Like if somebody was like, what's the worst job you can imagine to be like pastry production on the Gulf of Mexico?

• 18:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was amazing. And it was like an OCD wet dream in so many ways, but I was getting constant validation, which I hadn't gotten at these restaurants before. And so this was where I was like, oh my God, maybe I'm, maybe I'm kind of good at this. I kind of like this. This was like pure honeymoon phase. Then I went back to the savory side and got my ass kicked again. But that honeymoon phase, boy, it was beautiful. Joe, I really want to ask about work relationships. You know, Valentine's Day is about relationships. It's about love. And there are a lot of relationships that we have with the people around us at work. They're kind of like cousins,

• 19:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  siblings, parents. It's a great dynamic of people that you can be very close to, love and hate at the same time. But it's weird because you're, you're just coworkers, but it feels so personal and so close.

• 19:21Joe Flamm?

  Well, and like having a chef you work for, for a long time is a relationship in a way, any way, shape or form. And it's like, you know, sometimes it's not a good one, but it still is one. You know, it's always interesting to me and I don't, you know, know what your experience has been with it. But it's like different chefs, like when you have, you know what I mean? It's, it's one thing about the relationship, but when you have the breakup, right? When you gotta tell them it's over. And you know, like, as a chef, I've been fortunate enough where it's like, I've not been on the receiving end of, you know what I mean, somebody breaking up with me of, you know, getting fired or being told to, you know, being dismissed from a job.

• 19:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, yeah.

• 19:58Joe Flamm?

  I've always been the one who left. And, you know, it's a weird thing. And I think of like, the old school mentality of like, you know what I mean, in the 90s and stuff, the stories you'd hear from chefs, it's like, once they left somewhere, they were, you know, I mean, that chef never spoke to you again.

• 20:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Joe Flamm?

  Like, you were just like, oh, yeah, you don't exist. Like, because it was still, I think of like, that stiff competition of like, well, if you're leaving, if you're not with us, you're against us.

• 20:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  I always wondered where that came from. I'm like, this person, you know, gave their blood, sweat and tears for you. And then unless they get a really big name, that other chef would act like they don't exist.

• 20:36Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, because you're going to work for their competition. You're going to work for the enemy.

• 20:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or going to become the competition.

• 20:42Joe Flamm?

  Right. And there's parts of it where it's like, you kind of get, you know what I mean? Where it's like, you know, I'd be lying if I'd never, if I said I never felt a way about where somebody was going to work based on who they were going to work for. Where, you know what I mean? It's like seeing your ex with like, you know, their new person and you're like, oh, really? Like him? Her?

• 21:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's who you left me for? Oh, okay.

• 21:05Joe Flamm?

  Right. Like, you think they're better than me? You know, and it's like weird. And it's like, you know, you see chefs, they get like weird and jealous about it. Like, oh, you know, they make you laugh like I made you laugh. Yeah, it was like, how's their comida? Is their comida good?

• 21:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 21:18Joe Flamm?

  Like, do you guys do fun stuff?

• 21:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Do they have good family meal for you? Or do they just feed you?

• 21:23Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Leftovers.

• 21:25Joe Flamm?

  What kind of activities do you guys do? Do you hang out? You know, like, and it's, you know, it's like, there's a weirdness to it because it is a relationship. And we get, you know, I think like chefs get possessive of their people, you know what I mean? Of like, you're like, I did put, you know, you put blood, sweat and tears into them, but they also put it into you.

• 21:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 21:42Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? I think that's a transition you understand more as you get into being a sous chef and a chef. It's like you put everything into your people.

• 21:51Joe Flamm?

  And then like one day they're like, oh, okay, now I'm gonna go. It's a weird thing.

• 21:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  It is, and it's really about how you handle it. Do you communicate properly? You know, the chef still might be hurt if they didn't see it coming. If they thought that you were the kind of, you know, chef, sous chef, who would be with them for the long haul. Then they still get upset, but I do think it's really important to handle it well and communicate. And I've, you know, I've been guilty of that. I've left a job and didn't communicate openly with my chef about why. Or, you know, I always gave good notice. It's not like I quit a day out. You know, I'd give a month notice or three months, but I definitely left places where I could have communicated better with the chef. And, you know, jeopardized a relationship that was very important to me.

• 22:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it took me years to mend that relationship, but it was an important one. It was important to me that chef had poured a lot into me, so I put in the work, you know? It's like a relationship, you gotta put in the work.

• 22:51Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? And I think like,

• 22:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  To get that back.

• 22:54Joe Flamm?

  You know, I'm at a point now where it's like, you know, I try to tell people when I bring them on. It's like, when you get to the point where you're ready to leave, like, come talk to me. I will try to get you where you want to go. Like, if you are open and honest with me about it, then like, I will do everything in my power to try to get you wherever you want to go. And if you're not, if you just leave, whatever, it's like, that's fine. That's fine, too. You owe me nothing. Like, the agreement was you'd work here for as long as you decide to work here, right? And that while you worked here, you did the job up to the standard and you were a good member of the team. That's the deal. You owe me nothing else, and that's fair. So if you want to leave, you don't want to tell me where you're going, you don't want to tell me what you're doing, that's fine. But it's just like, for me, I'm always just like, why? Why wouldn't you let me help you?

• 23:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 23:37Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, I'm offering to, you know, maybe you don't trust me in it, but it's like, you know, I mean, I have a track record of helping people do it. But it's like, if you want to get somewhere, the more you let me know, the more I can help you.

• 23:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Another one that I find really interesting is our restaurant relationships with the people we're shoulder to shoulder with. So before you're a chef, not necessarily the chef you work for, or people leaving you as a chef, but the colleagues, the coworkers, your line mates, your friends, like, those are people who, I mean, we trauma bond, I'm there for their successes, we're there for each other's failures, like, we go through such an emotional experience together. And then if somebody leaves the restaurant, it's like, okay, my best friend doesn't exist anymore. You know, it's like, it's, it's what we-

• 24:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I always say you get to take like, one or two with you from every restaurant. Like, you know, it's like, I think when you first start, you know, I mean, at least in my first kitchen job, of like, where you're like, I'm gonna be friends with all these people forever.

• 24:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 24:40Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, we're all gonna be chefs, we're all gonna be running restaurants, we're all so good. And I'm gonna know all of them, and, you know, events for the rest of my life are gonna be me and all these people who I came up with here. And there's some, right? You know what I mean? There's some of that trickle down. There's one or two who it's like, it's crazy that, you know, I've known them. My best friend, you know, of 20 years, I met was my station partner at Table 52. Right? And like, we were station partners, and then we lived together in my parents' house. And then we lived together with my cousin. And then, you know, like, I introduced him to his wife, like, you know what I mean? He was, he was best man at my wedding, I was best man in his wedding, you know, we've been friends for 20 years now. Just because, like, you know, we're both named Joan, we both worked a wood fired oven together at Table 52. And

• 25:24Joe Flamm?

  we were great station partners. You know what I mean? Best station partner ever. I think there were two or three guys who stood up at my wedding who were station partners of mine, at one point, you know, and who became, you know, one of them, Buddy Aaron, it's like, I'm the godfather of his, of his daughter. You know what I mean? And we were just like, we were station partners together. Aaron and I were torn out together, we were junior sous together. And like, at Girl to Go. And it's just like, it's wild, like, how-

• 25:52Joe Flamm?

  Intense those bonds are, how you know, deep those friendships go.

• 25:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, you know, there's still people where it's like, we step back on the line. You know, like Erin and I had the opportunity, we cooked together maybe a year and a half ago at a vet. He was there helping somebody out and I was there cooking. And like, we got on the line together and it was like, didn't miss a beat, didn't miss a beat. Like, it was the closest I felt to feeling 25 again. You know what I mean? Forever, because it was just like, we're just slanging pans, just digging. You know what I mean? I was like, this is, this is the shit.

• 26:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I always think about that because like, my sister's a property manager and she's got friends from companies that she worked at previously that she formed relationships with. They'd go out to dinner, they'd hang out and they maintain those relationships throughout their careers, even when they go to different companies. But when I've changed restaurants, it's almost like because of our hours and because we don't get to see, it's like, I'm working 12, 14 hours a day. If we don't have our one day off that week doesn't line up, I'm never gonna see you.

• 26:53Joe Flamm?

  Right, I might not see you for six months.

• 26:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, so you're like the closest people to me for two years. Like, I can tell you, everybody on my favorite line that I ever worked that I was super close with. Ron Su, Austin Baker, Eddie Dollinger, Michael Tyler and me, the five of us. Held it down, entree line at the Bernadette for a good, it was a heady two, three year period. Rocked it out, all got good, we pushed each other, we challenged each other, we talked a lot of shit to each other. But we had such close bonds and relationships and then somebody would leave. And it's like, you know, it's like, a piece of you left and you gotta get that dynamic back. But I almost never talked to that person again.

• 27:40Joe Flamm?

  Well, yeah, that's weird, you can't take them all with you, right? There's one that it's like, you know. Like Joe was from Table 52 and my other buddy John there. You know what I mean? Those are the two guys who I still talk to a lot and you know, I hear from my chef there every once in a while. And then like my buddy Aaron from Grow on the Goat and my other buddy GM there. But it's like, there's one or two each restaurant that you're kind of able to take with you.

• 28:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 28:01Joe Flamm?

  And it's like the rest, it's like, everybody spreads out. And it's like, and then it's like, I still see him. I saw one of my cooks from Belly Q was at an event I did Monday and now he's a, he's like a chef instructor at a Elgin Community College, I think. And it was like, like, probably haven't seen him in at least a year. But it's like, you know, it's still, it's like instant that like, he's like, you know, like chef, give me a big hug. And like, you know, seeing those people. And it's like, you know, somebody was there, she was like, man, she's like, do you just know everybody at this event? It's like, well, I've just, I've been around.

• 28:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've worked, yeah.

• 28:33Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? I've been around for 20 years now and I worked at a lot of places and I worked with a lot of cooks. It's just like, it is a wild thing. It's a weird thing. And it's like, I will say at this point in my life, I've tried to do a better job of checking in on my people.

• 28:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Maintaining them, putting in the work, putting in the work.

• 28:52Joe Flamm?

  Yes, putting in the work for like my sous chefs who left or cooks who leave where it's like, you know, checking in on them before, you know, because I always tell them like, hey, if you want to get a coffee, if you want to catch up, let me know. Like I'm always down. You know what I mean? But if I haven't heard from them for a while, trying to bridge that gap and be like, you know what, like I can send them a text and be like, hey, you want to, like, how are you doing?

• 29:14Joe Flamm?

  And then, you know, usually if I send that text, they're like, hey, you know, I've been meaning to catch up with you. Like, could we have coffee? Could we have lunch? And you know what I mean? Make the time. Because other people have done that for me. You know what I mean? From Stephanie to Tony to, you know, Kevin Bain to, you know, all sorts of people who, you know, I worked for over the years who have taken the time to like, have a coffee with me, have a meal with me. And, you know, when I needed advice or just. Needed to be, you know, chalked off the edge a little bit.

• 29:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And I can, I can honestly say like, there are some of my, some of my like old coworkers and line mates that I keep up with. Like my friend Ron, he opened, him and another former coworker actually opened a couple, actually I think they're up to three or four in Atlanta now. And their first restaurant Lazy Betty has a Michelin star. And, you know, they're doing great. They've got a pizza place. They've got the fine dining place. Like they're killing it. And we've kept in touch, you know, intermittently throughout the year on cookbook stuff, on pop ups, on hey, you'll be in New York. You know, all kinds of stuff. And then other people, it's like, I ran into one of my guys, like one of my old, like my old saucier, when I was on saute, I ran into him at the farmer's market. And I'm like, oh my God, you know, it's like,

• 30:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  you feel that love. You still feel that camaraderie and that closeness. And there's, there's no feeling that can replace that because you see people when they are at their worst. Working a line with somebody is a test of character. And it shows you who that person is. Like when you're mad and angry and frustrated, do you lash out? Or are you still a good person? And that tells you everything that you need to know about a person.

• 30:49Joe Flamm?

  Are you gonna lash out or are you gonna start singing Neil Diamond songs to me in my ear that no one else can hear?

• 30:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or OutKast or, you know, everybody's got their thing. And that's like the beauty of it is like, those people, you know them, you know who they are in their core. Like I know you, I know you so well.

• 31:06Joe Flamm?

  Dogs. You know what I mean? You're like, you're a fucking dog, man. Like, you know, you know they're still like.

• 31:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  When you've got your back up against the wall, I know you will fight your way out and you will not be an asshole while you're doing it. You know, that says so much about somebody's character.

• 31:20Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And I know you'd lie for me in court if you had to.

• 31:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Absolutely.

• 31:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Another cool thing about the relationships, and this is like personal relationships and work relationships is like, how do you keep each other motivated in a restaurant? Like your coworkers in a restaurant? What are some of the ways that you and your people, you and your friends used to keep each other motivated during those busy, long, hard times of the year when you're just like getting no sleep, crazy busy at work? You know, how do you keep each other going?

• 31:54Joe Flamm?

  See, this is the funny thing. I feel like it's less hard to keep each other motivated during the busy times, right? Cause you're just going. Like, there's no time to think about it. When you're going, when you're busy all the time, you're going at a rate, right? You got shit to do. Everybody's got shit to do. We're just cranking. You know what I mean? We're working for each other. We're pushing. You're going at a speed, so I'm gonna match that speed, right? When we're at pace. I think it's way, way harder to keep everybody motivated when the lulls come.

• 32:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm, that's real.

• 32:23Joe Flamm?

  And I think that was always the trick of it. You know what I mean? It's like, how do you keep people motivated when it slows down?

• 32:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 32:30Joe Flamm?

  When you're not going a thousand miles an hour. When, you know what I mean? You're running a Michelin star restaurant that's gonna do 20 covers. How do you keep everybody up to like, hey, we gotta be as sharp as when we're doing 120. When we're having a banging Saturday night, we got a full line. Now, there's only four of us here.

• 32:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 32:47Joe Flamm?

  You know, I remember, we had one where it was like, it was negative 40 with the wind chill in Chicago. And so like, we closed Biage, but we had to keep cafe open, because part of the lease for the building was like, one restaurant had to be open.

• 33:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay.

• 33:02Joe Flamm?

  So I was like, shit, alright. So I was like, I was like, what are we gonna do? So I was like, I didn't wanna call any of the cooks in, because it was too cold. So I called my chefs, and I was like, hey. And one of them was my buddy Aaron from Girl on the Goat, he was working with us at the time. And so I said, hey, we're gonna do managers only. I was like, I'll pick you guys up, get everybody Ubers home. You know, we'll bring a dishwasher in, we'll send an Uber to his house to get him. And front of the house will just be managers. And so it was like, you know, we didn't know if we were gonna do five people that night, or whatever. I was like, but we'll just go, we'll hang out, we'll have fun. And it'll just be like, when do you get to have three chefs? So it was like, me, Aaron, my buddy Brian, and I think my buddy Eric Lee's. So it was like, three dudes I love hanging out with.

• 33:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:43Joe Flamm?

  And we just had this whole, the little cafe Spiaja kitchen, it was a small kitchen. So we just had this little kitchen. Front of the house manager, she was like, what are we gonna do tonight? I'm like, I don't know if we're gonna be busy or not, or what's gonna happen, or if we're gonna do anyone. Like, what we are gonna do, is I was like, turn the music up. I was like, and you're gonna make everyone Aperol spritz. And we're gonna pretend like we are at the beach today. And we're gonna drink Aperol spritz and we're gonna cook pasta. And we're gonna see what happens. We ended up getting crushed because we were the only restaurant that was open. Everybody else had closed. So it was, you know, I think we started the day with 10 covers. We ended up doing, we ended up doing like 80 or 90 people. And like 70 of them were all industry people. Cause it was like, you know, I put up a picture or something like, oh, like we're in here.

• 34:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they're like, oh, great. I know where I can grab food.

• 34:30Joe Flamm?

  Oh, you're open. We're coming. You know what I mean? So it was like, everybody's restaurants who closed all came in to eat that night. It was like one of the funnest nights of my life. And it was just like, just being stupid. Like we just had fun. You know what I mean? I think like, those are the days where it's like finding like, all right, like what little, like we used to do, uh, like on really slow days, we would do like bet on just weird things. We'd be like, all right, first ticket out of the printer. What do you think it's gonna be?

• 34:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  What's the order gonna be?

• 34:57Joe Flamm?

  What's the first dish out of the printer? You know, and I take like, whatever, a $50 bill or something. And I put it, I tuck it into the pass. And I'd be like, first dish out of the printer, let's go tonight. And you know, everybody would put a guess or we'd do over, under on covers. You know, Price is Right style, or you know what I mean? You gotta guess the covers.

• 35:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Closers without going over.

• 35:14Joe Flamm?

  Closers without going over on covers would be another bet we'd roll. Once online gambling became a thing, we would do Sunday parlays. Where we'd bet like a crazy, like take 10 bucks a bet, like a seven leg parlay.

• 35:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 35:28Joe Flamm?

  And then if we won it, you know what I mean? We'd split it. We never won, obviously.

• 35:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Of course. But if you had, you'd be all in the reward together. See, we used to do like, I remember when, when I was working at La Bernadette, like 11 Madison, it had become like more widely known that they would put a quote on the pass every day. And so we're like, you know what? That's a great idea. So during the busy season, it's like, you almost need something to distract you because you're just balls to the wall every day for. A five month stretch. Everybody's working six days. So it could be hard to kind of like, you're performing at a high level. It's the expectations are high. So it would be fun to kind of like distract people a little bit. So Mike Tyler would like, put a quote up on the inside of the stainless steel behind where our cook surface was. And he'd

• 36:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  put the blue tape around it, or he'd put a photo up on the wall or something, just so that we all had a touch point. When you go from cooking at the stove to like grabbing your micros or your crunchies or whatever to finish your dish, you like turn around and you see that thing. You see that one thing and it makes you smile and then you turn back to the stove and you keep going. And then during prep time, another thing we used to do, and I think this was Austin's kind of like main thing, Austin and Eddie, they would be like, hey, shout down the line, hey, Cheatham, give me five derivatives of XYZ mother sauce. And we would play like culinary trivia. What are the fine herbs? What are the, you know, it's like, we would play like random culinary trivia.

• 36:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  My favorite one that I stumped several people throughout my career with, in Rapunzel, what was the vegetable that led to them giving up their daughter?

• 37:09Joe Flamm?

  No idea.

• 37:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Radishes. The old witch was growing radishes in her garden.

• 37:16Joe Flamm?

  I would have never got that one. We were, I wish we could say like, you know, sometimes we would, we would have very culinary based talks, you know what I mean? To be like, where would you work? If you weren't working here now? Where's one place you want to eat?

• 37:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Joe Flamm?

  One of our favorite, my favorite was like, what's your favorite three meals you ever had? But like, when it was like really bad and you really needed to get out of it, we would play this game where it was like, tell us a story you've never told anyone. Like this was like OG walking confessions. And it didn't have to be like something like salacious. It'd be like, one time in fifth grade, like I peed my pants and I lied about it. I've never told anyone about it. And it would be like, it'd be hilarious because it'd be like random shit like that. Or like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like, my sister got blamed for this when we were six. And like, I have never come forward that like, I actually broke that. Like, I've still never told my parents this day or whatever. And people would tell stories like that. It was so like, I mean,

• 38:07Joe Flamm?

  we would just be cracking out, you know, on the line dying, just like telling these stupid stories. But it just got you through.

• 38:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Our last part of the day, Joe, I want to do a little bit of Valentine's Day turn and burn.

• 38:24Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 38:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  How do you feel about that?

• 38:26Joe Flamm?

  A little teasy and daisy.

• 38:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm. I have some either ors for you, okay?

• 38:31Joe Flamm?

  Okay, I'm ready.

• 38:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, for Valentine's Day, if you weren't working, going out for a romantic dinner or spending a special night at home?

• 38:42Joe Flamm?

  At home.

• 38:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 38:44Joe Flamm?

  Well, what's up?

• 38:47Joe Flamm?

  For my kids.

• 38:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Take working kids out of it.

• 38:52Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Joe Flamm?

  At home.

• 38:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, at home. I'm the same way. I think I'd rather be at home. If you were cooking, would you rather cook with that special someone or cook for that special someone?

• 39:09Joe Flamm?

  For.

• 39:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Instead of having them in the kitchen with you?

• 39:12Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, it's, yeah, no, it's, yeah, for. Are you cooking with? You got sous chef Steven over there?

• 39:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, man knows his way around the kitchen, so it's not like, I used to be super, no, I don't, I can't work with people at home in the kitchen, but I'm starting to see the

• 39:32Joe Flamm?

  Oh, you say people, people at home, like there's somebody else besides Steven, you know what I mean? Like you don't want to name his name to protect his identity?

• 39:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  I used to just be super closed off about anybody being in the kitchen with me at home, like, no, I got this, like, please stay away.

• 39:48Joe Flamm?

  Shocking to hear.

• 39:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  But recently I have, I've really started to see like, how much fun it is to cook with my husband. It's actually more fun than I think I realized before. So I think I would cook with, instead of just cooking for. I want to, I want all parties to be equally culpable here. If you're out at dinner on Valentine's Day, do you order desserts to share or separate?

• 40:13Joe Flamm?

  Always to share. I'm also though, like, I, you know, and I feel like it's so rarely I get to go out. I may, we are ordering all the desserts.

• 40:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, okay.

• 40:23Joe Flamm?

  Like, don't tell me you're full. Don't want to hear it. It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. We're ordering all of the desserts. Like, you know what I mean? It doesn't matter how many, if there's two of us, if there's six of us, whatever. Like, send it.

• 40:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  All of it?

• 40:38Joe Flamm?

  All of it.

• 40:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  All of it. Okay.

• 40:40Joe Flamm?

  And I'll be like, I know you thought you heard me say some of it. I want all of it.

• 40:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  The whole dessert menu. Okay, so that brings me to my next one. If you could only choose one, would it be chocolate souffle or chocolate lava cake? These are two Valentine staples. Which is yours?

• 41:02Joe Flamm?

  This is my question, though. Is there a sauce for the souffle?

• 41:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, classic creme anglaise. Crack the top, pour the creme anglaise into the center of the souffle, traditional style.

• 41:14Joe Flamm?

  Also would wildly depend on where I'm at. You know what I mean? If I at, you know what I mean?

• 41:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, assume they're both gonna be executed well.

• 41:22Joe Flamm?

  A neighborhood restaurant on the south side, I'm gonna go lava cake. I'm not trusted. You know what I mean? If somebody's decided they're gonna throw a souffle on the menu. I've had a lava cake six blocks from my house. It's delicious. It slaps, dude. Scoop of vanilla ice cream on that bad boy? Let's go. Um, I don't know, there's souffle game up at Ken's, but you know, maybe it's all right.

• 41:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, well, just assume that they're both gonna be done well. Which, which is your cup of tea?

• 41:47Joe Flamm?

  They're both be done to the, the highest regard. I think like, the souffle is more special to me. You know, because it's something you don't see very often anymore. And I think like, when you have a really good souffle is like, mind blowing. You know what I mean? I think like texturally, you know, temperature wise, all of those things. I think it's just, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's a classic for a reason. It's a perfect, you know what I mean, dessert for a reason.

• 42:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:14Joe Flamm?

  So I'd probably go souffle. I, I have to assume you're going souffle.

• 42:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, a hundred percent. Oh, yeah.

• 42:20Joe Flamm?

  Je m'appelle Adrien.

• 42:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Applaud, thank you.

• 42:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Applaud.

• 42:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, and final question. Valentine's Day gift, flowers or chocolate?

• 42:34Joe Flamm?

  Always flowers.

• 42:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm.

• 42:37Joe Flamm?

  Always flowers.

• 42:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  You don't like the Walgreens box of Russell Stover assorted chocolates?

• 42:44Joe Flamm?

  I mean, one, there's always chocolate in my house, I would say. I always have a little chocolate stash going. Flowers, I think flowers are the best. I like, flowers is one of those things. I like buying flowers. Like even, you know, you go to a farmer's market and they have awesome flowers. Like it's the best. It's such, you know what I mean? It's so frivolous and silly and I think that's why it's nice.

• 43:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I love.

• 43:04Joe Flamm?

  What about you? Flowers or chocolates?

• 43:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Flowers, 100%. Chocolates would sit there for a year and I might nibble one or two of them. Flowers I will look at and smile throughout the day and when I think about them, I will smile. I love flowers.

• 43:20Joe Flamm?

  Now, now, if you want to send me chocolates, I'm.

• 43:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm not sending you anything.

• 43:25Joe Flamm?

  I would be delighted. Why not? It's a nice thought.

• 43:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  I might send Hillary some flowers, but I'm not sending you a damn thing.

• 43:31Joe Flamm?

  No, send her some chocolates so I can eat them all. It'll be great.

• 43:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love it. Joe, well, Happy Valentine's Day to you and yours. I hope you guys have a great service this weekend.

• 43:44Joe Flamm?

  Paige, Happy Valentine's Day to you. I hope it is filled with all the love and none of the two tops.

• 43:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, Happy Valentine's Day. That is it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube where you can find full-length episodes of the show. And be sure to follow us at The Chef's Cut Pod on IG. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrienne Cheatham and this has been The Chef's Cut, Life Beyond the Pass.