Top Chef, Michelin, 50 Best, & James Beard: The Race for Restaurant Recognition!!

Adrienne and Joe take on the high-stakes world of culinary awards and rankings, examining how Michelin, James Beard, Top Chef, and the newly renamed “50 Best” shape restaurant visibility, and whether industry prestige still translates to real-world diners. In this episode, we also discuss: Why a Top Chef run can offer more mainstream business impact than a James Beard win Whether Michelin’s Sysco partnership creates a pay-to-play perception How tourism board funding fuels Michelin’s expansion into new markets Stars vs. recommended plaques: how the public misunderstands Michelin tiers Corporate sponsorships, financial independence, and the James Beard Foundation The 50 Best voting model and concerns surrounding hosted chef trips Why major accolades still drive bookings, press, and fine-dining revenue Industry hype vs. actual diners: who really decides if an award matters? Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Today on The Chef's Cut, we are talking about the murky relationship between Cisco and the Michelin Guide.

• 0:18Joe Flamm?

  Give me three bags of charcoal and three stars. Thank you.

• 0:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Whether or not winning Top Chef is more important than winning a James Beard Award.

• 0:26Joe Flamm?

  I don't think anyone listening to this or watching this will think I don't have a bias.

• 0:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  And why diners might be the most important voices of all.

• 0:35Joe Flamm?

  If guests still care, guests still care.

• 0:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's the actual arbiter. But first, Chef's Cut Nation, you know what time it is. We need 10 seconds of your day. Please rate and review the show wherever you get your pods. It really helps.

• 0:54Joe Flamm?

  Michelin star season is right around the corner. They're gonna start dropping those plaques off door to door. And I think Michelin has been getting a lot of heat lately. I feel like in the last few years, they've been getting a ton.

• 1:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  We're part of that. We're part of bringing that heat because I don't understand what they're doing.

• 1:11Joe Flamm?

  Now they got this two-year-old relationship with Cisco. So they're getting a ton of heat for that conflict of interest type stuff. You have the James Beard where Tom Colicchio, multi-James Beard Award winner, beacon of the industry, comes out and says, winning Top Chef is as important as winning a James Beard Award, which you could not imagine someone saying when we went on the show, let alone when it began. And then you got the World's 50 Best rebranding itself as The 50.

• 1:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 1:39Joe Flamm?

  Like, it's like a TRL music video list. Now, it's like, oh, tune into The 50, see if Britney Spears is still on top.

• 1:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's the thing. These awards used to be, I mean, they were the be-all, end-all of our industry. You lived and died by getting one of these awards.

• 1:57Joe Flamm?

  And I feel like those, those like crazy old people who are like, it's not what it used to be. You know, it used to be something. That's how I feel sometimes when we talk about this. But I think the conversation needs to be had. And I think we have to start with Michelin.

• 2:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:12Joe Flamm?

  I think they are the biggest elephant in the room right now.

• 2:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 2:16Joe Flamm?

  Because the whole Cisco thing.

• 2:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's wild. It's like, when people say and speculate about awards being pay-to-play, this Cisco Michelin partnership does nothing to dispel the pay-to-play questions that people have. Because it started off with Cisco sponsoring the Texas Ceremony in 2024.

• 2:39Joe Flamm?

  And the Texas Ceremony, that's the one where they like invite all the chefs down and they announce.

• 2:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 2:44Joe Flamm?

  Right? Yeah, okay.

• 2:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it's one thing to know that tourism boards pay Michelin to come in. We've known that for a while now. Michelin doesn't just arbitrarily say, I heard there was an amazing restaurant off in the northwest corner of Idaho. Let me get up there and check out what this chef is doing. No, the Tourism Board of Idaho has to pay for Michelin to come in.

• 3:08Joe Flamm?

  Does Idaho even have a northwest corner?

• 3:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Do they even have a tourism board? I don't know. But Michelin is not this independent arbiter of restaurants in good taste that we all thought that it was. And we've seen that over the years with being paid by tourism boards to enter a new market. And then you add to that the Cisco relationship, and it gets a little murkier.

• 3:33Joe Flamm?

  I think it gets, it gets way murkier. But, you know, I think people are really upset about the Cisco thing, right? Because I think it creates at least the appearance that like, people who are working with them are gonna have preferential treatment. Which is like, how could you not feel that way? Whether it's in good faith or not, like, that's the appearance. When you have Cisco reps dropping off Michelin plaques.

• 3:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you.

• 3:54Joe Flamm?

  It's impossible not to have any correlation between the two, right?

• 3:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Joe Flamm?

  And whether or not that's true, I don't think it matters. It's the appearance. And for me, it's like, the Cisco thing is just another brick in the road of like, Michelin going way, way off course. And I think, and it's not the most egregious to me, though.

• 4:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think that they started to go off the rails when they started issuing plaques for Michelin recommended restaurants, as opposed to just starred restaurants. And then, that's when it seemed like it became a marketing ploy. Because you just wanna see that red Michelin plaque. Michelin wants to have more of a presence in the US. And then you add the layer of Cisco being the distributor for those plaques. And I can't find a publicly available copy of their contract with Michelin, but I did find that they are using it as a sales tool. Because Joe Flamm, you own four restaurants in the great food city of Chicago, right?

• 4:55Joe Flamm?

  I do.

• 4:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  If you're not buying from Cisco, but I'm a Cisco rep, and I wanna get your account, I wanna make money off of all four of your restaurants buying at least soap and paper towels from me, if not protein and vegetables. So I'm gonna say, hey, Joe, I have your Michelin plaque. Can we set up a meeting for me to come by and drop it off? And meanwhile, I'm gonna use that opportunity of having that FaceTime with you to pitch you on buying my products.

• 5:22Joe Flamm?

  Right. And like, you have FaceTime with me in a very good mood then, because you're bringing me something that I want, right?

• 5:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 5:29Joe Flamm?

  You know, for me, the plaques, and it's like, whatever accolade you get, if it works for you, if it makes your team happy, ride that wave. But it kind of like, the weird, it's like, now it's created these things where people are like, oh, it's a Michelin restaurant. And when you and I were coming up, if someone said, I worked in a Michelin restaurant, it's like, you worked at a one star.

• 5:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 5:50Joe Flamm?

  If you worked at a two-star, you said you worked at a two-star. You worked at a three, you let every damn person know you met that you worked at a three. You know what I mean? There was no, no mincered words about it. You didn't say, oh, I work in a Michelin restaurant.

• 6:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, you said, I work in a three Michelin star restaurant.

• 6:06Joe Flamm?

  Like, there was no two ways about it. And so it's like, now it's kind of come to this thing where it's like, oh, I work in a Michelin restaurant. And it's like, Rosemary has one of the red plaques, so it's like, I guess by technicality, it's a Michelin restaurant. I don't think of it that way. If I think of like, I ran a Michelin restaurant. I ran one for five and a half years. We had one star. It's Biagia. I ran a Michelin restaurant. I don't think like, you know what I mean? Like, I love Rosemary. I love what we do. I'm proud of the food we put out every day. I'm proud of the service we provide every day. If we're not a one-star, that's okay. That's not what we're going for. That's not what we do. But so the plaque thing is weird. It's just different to me. It's almost like when, you know, like, when luxury car makers started making like, way cheaper versions. So it's like, you could be like, oh, I bought a Mercedes.

• 6:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh-huh. Yeah.

• 6:53Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, well, what kind of Mercedes? You know what I mean? Because there's a difference between an S-Class and like, a little hatchback. You know what I mean? And it's like, and there's nothing wrong with either. But those are different conversations.

• 7:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 7:03Joe Flamm?

  You know, and like, that's what it kind of like reminds me of, of like, this Michelin goofiness. But to me, it's the Tourism Board is way more, just how they've expanded in the, in the United States, I think is way, way more egregious than any of the Cisco stuff. But the Tourism Board's, the way they've expanded in the US, I think was just like, oh, yeah, we're gonna throw out the whole history of this.

• 7:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, we think of Michelin as this, you know, they care about the food, they care about the quality, they have this firewall, they're an independent reviewer, right? That's how we were taught to think about Michelin. But Michelin is a business. The Guide was subsidized by Tire Sales before, when it, when it started out. Now, think of how many Michelin inspectors fly around the country, make multiple visits to a restaurant. You've got hotel costs, you've got per diems. It is expensive to run the Michelin Guide. So where are they getting the money from? They're getting the money from these tourism boards paying them to enter a new market, and from companies like Cisco that sponsor them.

• 8:06Joe Flamm?

  Well, it wasn't even subsidized by tires. The whole point was to sell tires. In its own way, that's what made it incredible, right? Because the whole idea was going out there and trying to find somewhere that was off the beaten path.

• 8:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hit the road, explore the world.

• 8:20Joe Flamm?

  The beauty of Michelin in Europe is, you know, you can go to a three Michelin star restaurant in a tiny town. I staged one in Italy, where it was a town of 33 people. You know what I mean? In the middle of nowhere, that you'd have to drive to, that you can't get to. And like, that's the beauty of Michelin. They're saying, to get in the car, take this trip, this place is worth the, it's worth.

• 8:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Worth a special trip.

• 8:43Joe Flamm?

  Worth a special trip. Thank you. It's worth a special trip. And now saying like, well, we'll come to your market if you pay us. So if we're coming to your market, you can't go to a market and give no Michelin stuff.

• 8:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 8:55Joe Flamm?

  We're all fighting for the same guests. Now that we have a, you know, super global economy, I have guests who fly in from all over the world to eat at my restaurant because they're in Chicago, right? So we are all fighting to get that convention business. We're all fighting for the hotel business. We're all fighting for that guest on the street to walk in our doors and spend money with us. And it's a battle. It's hard as shit out there, and you have to do everything it takes. So I have no shame for these tourism boards doing whatever they need to do to bring people to their city. To me, it's just like, Michelin saying like, it's like, that they do it by city and not totally by state. There's no, you know, there's no consistency across the board. And I think, once they did that, it was like, this was the beginning of the end.

• 9:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. It's like, we'll go to Colorado, but we're only going to Denver. We're not going over here.

• 9:44Joe Flamm?

  Cisco's just another rock on the pile, for me. Like, it's, you know what I mean? It is what it is. I think there's lots of arguments to be made there. But I think like, Them going this tourism board route instead of deciding like, these are the cities in America we should target because they are the best food cities and doing it by, you know what I mean? Importance of culinary cities as opposed to like, who is willing to pay them to come? Once we walked down that road, that was the bullet that can't be unfired for me for Michelin, where it was kind of like, okay, okay, you know what I mean? This is kind of what it is.

• 10:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's a business. Michelin is a business. It is not just an independent reviewer. And it's disappointing to see the, the path that they've gone down. And it's disappointing to see that this award doesn't mean the, the Michelin recognition, you know, does it carry the same weight? Are, are chefs still gonna, gonna lose sleep over, you know, not getting a Michelin star? Or losing a Michelin star? Because it, it doesn't feel as important as it did.

• 10:44Joe Flamm?

  I think it's easier to exist without one now, is what I would say. I think there's less obsession with having to get one. But I think still, if you have one, the pressure to keep it is still there. I think three stars is still three stars. I think they haven't tainted that at all. That's why I will say, when they go into all these markets, I don't think the three star rating has tanked. They don't put a three star in every market. They don't promote to three easily. You see the places that seem to have three, they seem to take that very, very seriously of like, who they let have that, who they put to that. And people maintaining three. Like the two to three worlds is still super, super serious. I think getting one Michelin star is still a really, really big deal.

• 11:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  It almost, it just, it doesn't carry, to me, it doesn't carry the same weight that it used to. Michelin doesn't carry the same weight that it did. If I go into a restaurant and I see a plaque, I know if I should be looking for the star at the top. I know that that's what I'm looking for, but most people don't know that. They see a red shiny Michelin plaque when you walk into this restaurant and you're like, oh my God, this is a Michelin rated restaurant. And I, I think it's intentional.

• 11:49Joe Flamm?

  But still, it's like, it's never carried the weight in America that it has in Europe, period.

• 11:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 11:54Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, when you go to Europe and you're like, oh, I work at a one Michelin star. They're like, oh, wow. You know what I mean? Like, if you tell most people in America that, they're like, oh, you guys didn't get three? You know what I mean? Or they'll say like, can you get four? It's just not as well known.

• 12:14Joe Flamm?

  I think the next one we gotta talk about it, I don't know if you saw it, but it was an article with Tom Colicchio, and I saw like, Gail reposted it too. He said that winning Top Chef is as important as winning a James Beard.

• 12:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep, Kristen reposted it also. It was like, that was a big statement. That was a big statement. Cause if you think about the thought of doing television when Top Chef first started versus now, winning Top Chef is a career defining moment. When it started, it was just kind of like something you could or could not do.

• 12:48Joe Flamm?

  It was a cool footnote.

• 12:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, but now, like, if you're a serious chef, you do television. You do Top Chef especially. And to say that I've won Top Chef is just as important, I think nowadays, as saying, I won best new chef for the James Beard Award or best new restaurant. Like, that's a big deal.

• 13:12Joe Flamm?

  I don't think anyone listening to this or watching this will think I don't have a bias in this, obviously. As that I've won, as I've won one and not the other.

• 13:25Joe Flamm?

  And so on, which I think is more important. But they're two very different things. But I think like, winning Top Chef is such a monster platform. And I think where the Beard Awards continue to fail, and I've said this before, is that once you win a beard, I think the support behind you to continue to drive that is not, I mean, you can't, I mean, like, James Beard is not can compete with NBC Peacock.

• 13:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 13:52Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what I mean? You have a monster machine behind you. It's a monster marketing machine. You're on all these shows, you're on all these things. Think about you and I, right before the finale. We're in New York, you and I did 20 interviews.

• 14:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 14:04Joe Flamm?

  In a nine hour day where they had us in a car with a driver, where he just drove us around interviews all day to news stations. We did phone calls in between. We did phone calls, our last phone call, I remember, I was going to the airport, you were going home, and we were on a three-way call until I got to my gate, got on the plane and went back to Chicago.

• 14:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, you had to put the phone down to get through security.

• 14:25Joe Flamm?

  Right, like, you're never gonna have that level of press for James Beard.

• 14:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 14:29Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? No matter what award you win, like, you know, no matter how many you win, like, it just doesn't have that press machine behind it because, you know, way more people win it too, is the thing. And as much as it's starting to get streamed and it does that, it's not this televised show. It's not Bravo. It's not on the same network as The Real Housewives. You know what I mean? Like, Andy Cohen's not at the James Beard Awards. Like, so it's just, it's hard to compete with it on a marketing perspective. Like, it's not close. You know what I mean? From a marketing perspective, what it does for your brand, like, I don't think, you know, you can compare the two. I think Tom's a thousand percent right on that. And the James Beard Awards have always been about us, right?

• 15:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 15:11Joe Flamm?

  It's important to the industry. It has been an internal award saying like, because, especially when it used to just be chefs voting for chefs, you know, restaurateurs, whatever it may be, it was, my peers think I belong and I am at the top of my class.

• 15:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm worthy of this award.

• 15:28Joe Flamm?

  Yes.

• 15:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's so true. So if the point of every award is to bring people to your restaurant, and at the end of the day in a restaurant, the goal is to get butts in seats. All of these awards are doing that, but some of them are more successful and have bigger marketing behind them. And you're right, James Beard, the awards are very important to chefs. And there's a small group of non-chefs who care a lot about it too. But it's not the same as winning Top Chef. You have millions of people watching that show, whether or not they care about the food industry, whether or not they're considered foodies, or go out to eat because they want to try this cool new restaurant or this new cuisine that nobody's really doing.

• 16:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  They're gonna be watching Top Chef and they're probably gonna book a seat at your restaurant.

• 16:17Joe Flamm?

  For the average person, and this is how I think of it. I go to this gym out by me and when I got nominated for a James Beard Award this year, like, after it was all over and said and done, like, one of my buddies at the gym was like, hey, he goes, did you win a chef award? And I go, no, I didn't win. He goes, yeah, you did. He's like, you just don't want to tell us. I go, no, that'd be super weird if I didn't want to tell you. I go, I didn't win, I just got nominated. He's like, I thought you won like a chef award. And I was like, no, I didn't win a chef award. And, you know, he was referring to get nominated for James Beard. And I was like, and that's like, I think how most of the general public sees it. It's like, did you win your chef award? You know what I mean? You know, know or care? And it's like, and that's fine because it wasn't built for them, it was built for us, right?

• 17:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 17:01Joe Flamm?

  And I think James Beard has gotten away from that and tried to make it for everyone now. And so it's like, even then it's being brought up, it's like, you can't compete with Top Chef, nor should you be able to try. You should be the most important thing in the industry for the industry. I don't think it's that, because I also think it's like, you want to talk about sponsorships? Who are they not sponsored by? You'd have to go through the list, but it's, you know what I mean? A million long, from All-Cloud, you know, whoever they are, Visa or Capital One or Amex or whoever it is that year that's, you know, proposing it. And it's so focused on building the sponsorship for these awards to pack money into the foundation. And when you do these dinners, it's all about the partnerships of like, who their partner

• 17:46Joe Flamm?

  is. And, you know, that's the challenge with that.

• 17:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  But do those influence the awards in the same way that the appearance of Cisco and Michelin do?

• 17:54Joe Flamm?

  How would we know?

• 17:57Joe Flamm?

  How would we know? How would it not? How would it not? There's so many more players in James Beard. Michelin just has one, so I think it's really obvious. James Beard has a ton of partners and it is very cloak and dagger. So I have no idea. People talk about this pay to play stuff and it's like, it's confusing to me because I'm like, I don't know who's paying who in a lot of these scenarios. The standard there of like, sponsor the shit out of it. Sponsor the shit out of it, say they don't have influence and it's fine, right?

• 18:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so as someone who was on the James Beard Subcommittee for two years and, you know, was a judge, the judging process was very independent, but integrity only goes as far as the person holding that position. If you approach what you do with integrity and do it in the way that your orientation said and the paperwork that you read says, then yes, it is a very thorough process where people approach it with integrity and hold it with a place of pride. But not everybody does. Some people do use their status within organizations for access to other people.

• 19:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  But there wasn't as much, I think, with James Beard as I believe there is with some of the other awards. I do feel like the James Beard Awards, because it is so industry focused, it does approach the awards process with more integrity.

• 19:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now, there are other awards that I do feel like are incredibly pay to play. And this is not me being a conspiracy theorist. This is me having firsthand knowledge of people who have been flown to different restaurants to try them out.

• 19:46Joe Flamm?

  Really?

• 19:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh huh. So that's the other award that we gotta get into.

• 19:52Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, because I don't think like people, I think there's a theory out there that you could just buy a Michelin star. You could buy a James Beard award. And if, if you can, I don't know where they sell them. I haven't seen them on Craigslist and nobody's offered me one or asked me for money to buy one. You know, I've never been approached, but maybe somewhere it exists out there. I don't know. But I think the next one we're talking about, and I'm assuming you are talking about the newly rebranded, the 50.

• 20:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  The 50, not world's 50 best, the 50.

• 20:24Joe Flamm?

  So with this, I got a question right out the gate. So with the 50 now, because they have like North America top 50 now, right?

• 20:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. So it used to be just world's 50 best. Now there's North America's 50 best, there's South America 50 best. And I'm sure there's others, those are just the ones that I know off the top.

• 20:43Joe Flamm?

  For sure. Uh, Antarctica.

• 20:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they also have like spin offs, like they have 50 best bars. They have 50 best hotels, like it's not just food focused either.

• 20:54Joe Flamm?

  Right. 50 best private chefs.

• 20:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's, there's no awards for private chefs.

• 20:59Joe Flamm?

  This year, you're cracking the list this year. We're gonna fly everybody out.

• 21:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  You definitely acknowledge to yourself, I will never win a fucking award when you go to do private work. But that's a topic for another time.

• 21:13Joe Flamm?

  But so I gotta ask about this because you were the first person who ever told me about this. Cause I didn't know, I'm not, I've never been in, you know, what is now the 50 or the world's 50 best world. I never worked in, in a restaurant that was part of that. You know what I mean? It's something I followed for a long time. I felt like it was huge when we were coming up, especially like the early 2010s. You know what I mean? When there was the battle of like, you know, Noma, Osteria Francescana, when El Bulli left. And it was like, well, who's going to be number one after El Bulli? You know, like the early part of our cooking career, I felt like, you know, when Alenia went to number one, like it was huge. And I mean, it's still, I think is a big deal, you know? Smith getting it this year was a massive deal for them. And I thought really, really awesome and well deserved.

• 21:57Joe Flamm?

  But like, you have told me some things about this that I was shocked by.

• 22:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was shocked as well. So there are certain people who are journalists, who are chefs. Every now and again, they'll get invited on trips to go check out this restaurant in this town in South America or this town in Europe. And part of that trip is doing workshops with the local chefs. You're going to farms, you're checking in on this, you're seeing what the, the animals graze on. You're doing workshops with local produce and things like that. But they're sponsored by a restaurant. What restaurant can pay for 12 people to fly business class to another country? Put them up in hotels, eat at the restaurant.

• 22:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  If those people are not necessarily known to be judges for this thing, that they want to make sure that they stay on that list. And because when you vote for these restaurants, you have to have eaten there within a certain period. So if you're not getting those people in the door for that period, you've got to make sure that they come. So you pay for them to come.

• 23:13Joe Flamm?

  So you think the tourism boards are like back in that too?

• 23:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know if it's tourism boards. I don't know if it's the restaurants themselves. I don't know if the restaurants have sponsors for that. But you're like, would you have gone to that restaurant if they weren't paying for you to come there? And because they've already been on the 50 best list and you know that, when you're casting your ballot, they're top of mind. You know, it's a 50 best restaurant. You know that you went there. So when you're writing your ballot, you're writing them in. So to me, that's what surprised me the most.

• 23:48Joe Flamm?

  But okay, this is my, my other thing with it. Does that show you the power that that list still has? Does that say that maybe that list is the biggest game in town? If people are willing to do this, you could, we could argue about the ethics of it or like how to play. But in the both baseball adage, you know what I mean? It's only cheating if you get caught. Like, it's like, does it say to you then, the 50 or the world's 50 best? Like, that's the most important one. Cause I think it was for a while. And then I think Michelin kind of took over and James Beard and all of that. But it's like, it's a weird barometer.

• 24:29Joe Flamm?

  It's a really weird litmus test of like, what is the most important thing you could win? And I would say like, the one that people are trying the hardest to win is the most important one, right? So it's like 50 best to me. It's like, if you're flying 12 people across the world, they eat at your restaurant, that's the most important one.

• 24:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  So if you look at the timeline, early 2000s, late 90s, most important award in the U.S. was James Beard. By far, James Beard awards dominated the U.S. That was the most important award an American chef could win in the U.S. Then world's 50 Michelin started creeping in. And you had this blip, don't forget that blip where the Zagat guide was one of the most important also. That was short-lived because that was run by one person, Tim Zagat. And yes, the Zagat guide had other people going, but Tim would go to every restaurant. And Dan Barber talked about this when he was on the podcast before. He talked about Tim Zagat coming in to a restaurant he worked at when he was working for Boulé.

• 25:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it was so important to be in that Zagat guide. I know because La Bernarden was number one in the Zagat guide during part of the time I was there. And we popped champagne every time that guide came out. It was super exciting. Then the Zagat guide kind of went away. Michelin and world's 50 best started creeping into the conversation and now kind of dominating the conversation in the U.S. But do they still carry the weight now that people are kind of disillusioned with the thought of them being pay to play? And once you pull back the curtain, it's like, is it still as sexy and important to get these awards? Once you are a little disillusioned with seeing how they operate?

• 26:11Joe Flamm?

  I think for a certain level of restaurant, if you want to exist, I think, cause it's, I think fine dining is a super hard business, right? And it's a business where you can make a lot of money if you're busy. But it's really, really hard to be busy because you're selling a really, really expensive product, right? So you have to have a demand for this super expensive product. And for those places, the places who are trying to go from two Michelin star to three, or from now on world's 50 best to on that list. I think it's still a massive game changer for them. I think the biggest thing that can happen in a fine dining restaurant is you to go from two to three stars. I think it changes everything completely for you, you know, financially.

• 26:54Joe Flamm?

  I think from bookings to when people look at it, especially it's like a city like Chicago, you have, you know, whatever, 20,000 restaurants. And you're like, you have one, three Michelin star restaurant. So if you're flying from across the world and you're like, I want to have the best meal in Chicago. Well, according to Michelin, it's Smith. And according to world's 50 best, it is also Smith.

• 27:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, you are trying to book that and you don't care what it costs.

• 27:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you look at things like the New York Times list. So restaurants that hit that number one spot, they were already hard to get into. Tatiana, when that was named number one, two years in a row, Kabawa this past year. You have these restaurants, the New York Times list does the same thing that these awards do. It brings recognition. It brings recognition and people who may not have been booking there are now trying to make a reservation. So you get this uptick in reservations, you get this uptick in sales. And hopefully you continue to win awards over the subsequent years, different awards. The more awards you win, the more people know about your restaurant and the more butts get in seats. And the more people are spending money at your restaurant.

• 28:02Joe Flamm?

  Right. And I think that's why it's still, it's like the 50 is still so important. Because it's like, if you are in a small market, if you're in another country or if you're in another place, if you're in 50's best, the New York Times might write an article about that. That's an interesting story. If you're a restaurant in Peru, or if you're a restaurant in Colombia, or if you're, you know, wherever you may be. New York Times might write an article about that. And we know how much weight, you know, from what you just said, the New York Times carries. I don't know that there's another paper, definitely not in the United States, you know, at least, that has the culinary prowess of New York Times. I don't think there's anything remotely close. I think LA would try to make an argument and everyone would, no one would listen.

• 28:46Joe Flamm?

  But like, they might try to make that argument. You know what I mean? Like Chicago, it's dead in the water and has been, you know, for a while. So I think like in these other markets, it's like, I need one of these because it'll get me in that. And maybe if I get 50's best, maybe that'll get Michelin to take a look at me.

• 29:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 29:04Joe Flamm?

  If I can get Michelin to take a look at me, maybe it'll get 50's best. So I think it still is on the international scale. I think that's where it's of the highest priority. I think on the regional, national level, it's less important. But for those really fine dining restaurants where 90% of your clientele is not local, it is massive. It is a part of your business plan. It is a necessity. And that's why these things still carry so much weight. And it can be pay to play, it can be whatever to play. People are still reading the list. It's gotta carry weight.

• 29:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's for a reason.

• 29:41Joe Flamm?

  I think it's just this stuff coming to the surface, maybe for the average diner, for the regular restaurant, people like us. We're like, oh, you know what I mean? Like this is kind of, you know what I mean? It's the Dodgers ruining baseball of culinary of like, well, they're not technically breaking the rules. They're just spending more money.

• 30:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 30:02Joe Flamm?

  And if you spend more money and win.

• 30:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. If everybody's paying to play, but you still are winning, then you're better than everybody. But if you're paying to play and nobody else is, then it's unfair.

• 30:17Joe Flamm?

  If people are willing to pay, the awards still matter. The awards still matter. And maybe if they don't carry as much weight for us, it's, you know what I mean? Like maybe Oscars don't mean as much to the actors who win them each other anymore. But it gets people to go buy tickets to movies they weren't going to watch and it matters. You know what I mean? Like, we don't get to decide, you know, I mean, as the industry, if it's important.

• 30:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. What matters is the guest.

• 30:42Joe Flamm?

  And I think that's what we lose sometimes is that like, the guest is the ultimate. It doesn't matter if I think Michelin's, you know what I mean? Doing whatever it has jumped the shark, whatever. If guests still care, guests still care.

• 30:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. And that's, that's the actual arbiter, is what guests and the general public find important and what brings them to restaurants. If these awards are bringing them to restaurants, then that's what matters.

• 31:08Joe Flamm?

  Right. And I think, you know, Michelin and world's 50 best still do that. Does James Beard bring them to restaurants? I don't know.

• 31:16Joe Flamm?

  I don't know that it does. You know what I mean? It definitely not on the level of Top Chef.

• 31:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:22Joe Flamm?

  Not on the level, you know what I mean? There's no way.

• 31:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Times number one.

• 31:26Joe Flamm?

  And there's no way, it's not close.

• 31:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Joe Flamm?

  But, you know, another award season rolls in, we'll see where the stars lay out and we'll have a whole lot more to dissect and argue about age.

• 31:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:38Joe Flamm?

  And see what the big blue trucks drop off at the restaurants.

• 31:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah. Get ready for your Cisco rep to bring that red plaque.

• 31:46Joe Flamm?

  Yep. Give me three bags of charcoal and three stars. Thank you. I'll take it for Tuesday.

• 31:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Head to the comments to let us know what you think about these awards and whether or not they're important. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and follow us on IG. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been The Chef's Cut, life beyond the past.