The Ruth’s Chris-Chili’s Dress Code Feud, Michelin’s Identity Crisis, and Wonton Lasagna!!

The Michelin Guide is taking a new tack with American restaurants, but is it just diluting their brand? Adrienne and Joe discuss the “recommended” restaurant approach, Michelin plaques with no stars, and why they just don’t get the American Market. In this episode, we also discuss: Ruth’s Chris battling it out with Chili’s over dining room dress codes Whether or not you should be allowed to wear a hoodie and hat to a steakhouse Michelin’s latest ploy to represent southern food in America What Joe chose to do with his new Michelin plaque Fork It or Forget It: Wonton Lasagna Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on The Chef's Cut, we're asking the serious questions like, is the Michelin Guide devaluing its own brand? They're just sending plaques to everybody, every single restaurant. It used to be very definitive that if you saw that red plaque, you knew that they had one, two, or three stars. Is it okay to wear a baseball hat and hoodie to a steakhouse?

• 0:25Joe Flamm?

  It was just funny you say like Ruth, I was like Ruth Chris?

• 0:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Of all steakhouses, to institute a dress code? And is the viral wonton lasagna worthy of the hype? Damn, this is good.

• 0:37Joe Flamm?

  Was that good? Was it hip?

• 0:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  They got it right. If you're a fan of The Chef's Cut, please take a few seconds to rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps.

• 0:52Joe Flamm?

  Big thing I read this week that a bunch of people have been sending me, I don't know if you saw this, but Ruth Chris, the steakhouse, you're familiar with them? I don't know if you've ever been to a Ruth Chris.

• 1:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've been to a Ruth Chris for sure.

• 1:04Joe Flamm?

  In the news, battling it out with Chili's, which I'm sure you have been to.

• 1:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Absolutely. Happy hour.

• 1:11Joe Flamm?

  Over dress code.

• 1:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, I did see that.

• 1:14Joe Flamm?

  On the bingo card of weird stuff was not on my, was not on mine. Maybe it was on yours, that they were going to battle it out over dress codes on the internet. But it was an interesting thing because Ruth Chris basically came out and said, we're going to institute a dress code. And their dress code was like, basically, they don't want people wearing hats in the dining room anymore, tank tops, hoodies, revealing clothing, or beach attire, I think was the other one.

• 1:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. Interesting choice of, okay.

• 1:41Joe Flamm?

  Things.

• 1:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 1:43Joe Flamm?

  Things. So there's a lot of, you know, a lot of things about this.

• 1:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'm like, who are you targeting with hoodies and hats?

• 1:53Joe Flamm?

  Feels a way.

• 1:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Feel, I feel some kind of way about that, yeah.

• 1:57Joe Flamm?

  So. You know, and I think both of us coming from a fine dining background, right? And we both worked in fine dining when still the era of there was a bit of dress code. You know, when I worked at Spiaja, a really big deal was right before I started there, they had removed the policy where you had to wear a jacket in the dining room. It used to be a place where they keep extra jackets in the coat room in case you showed up without a jacket so that you could still meet with your friends. But I think that's kind of gone by the wayside. That's why it's like the hoodie one's an interesting one. Because like a hoodie is not a hoodie is not a hoodie. You know what I mean? I saw a dude walk by me in a Moncler hoodie the other day. I'm like, that must be a $350. He was sitting at a Carchofa. He's wearing a Moncler hoodie. I'm like, that's gotta be a $350 hoodie, right?

• 2:41Joe Flamm?

  So there's expensive hoodies out there, but it's a weird thing. And it seems to mostly exist in steak houses right now. And I think it's because a lot of the newer steak houses, including my own, like a high end steakhouse, there's almost like a quasi like club element to it a little bit. So it's a celebration, right? People go out to party, people go out to do these things. So it's a weird mix of like, okay, how much is it? But it's still a high end experience. It's a high ticket average, you know, going to a steakhouse costs as much as going to, you know, one Michelin star meal.

• 3:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I've been to Boulevard. People are getting jiggy to get there. Like, girls are in dresses and heels, guys are in like, you know, nice outfits. Also, like, people get dressed up to go to a lot of steak houses.

• 3:25Joe Flamm?

  Dressed to go. And it's awesome. I love it. I think it's part of like the cool thing. I love when people get dressed up for a dinner. So then you have this weird circumstance, like Ruth Chris coming out and saying, we're not going to allow you to do these things.

• 3:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And also, so this is my question. I just want to know, because you own a steakhouse and I go to steak houses. Is Ruth Chris the kind of steakhouse that can institute a dress code? Like, I thought Ruth Chris was on the more like, kind of casual end of steak houses. I've been to a Ruth Chris, but I can't say I've ever gotten super dressed up to go to a Ruth Chris. It's like, fine.

• 4:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Jeans and a nice top, but am I putting on heels and a dress? No.

• 4:07Joe Flamm?

  No.

• 4:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's kind of like the Chili's of steak houses.

• 4:10Joe Flamm?

  It's like a Longhorn that's just in the city. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, that's, I, but like, you know, as much as, like, I think it's like people trying to maintain a level of elegance, right? I think Ruth Chris trying to do that is beyond ludicrous, but.

• 4:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  It used to be, I remember, no shirt, no shoes, no service. That was what was on the window of McDonald's, of Burger King, of pretty much.

• 4:35Joe Flamm?

  I think that's reasonable.

• 4:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And that's fast food. And for certain restaurants like La Bernardin also had a jacket policy. You couldn't eat in the dining room without a jacket. And just like Spiacha, they had that closet with different sizes. So a gentleman could get a jacket if he didn't come with one. And then you could wear jeans as long as they were crisp and dark jeans, because then it still looks a little dressier.

• 4:58Joe Flamm?

  What about, what about hats?

• 5:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hats, no, no, nobody could wear hats.

• 5:02Joe Flamm?

  All right, so let me ask you this then. Can, you know, if, what do you think? Like, do you think people should be allowed to wear hat and a hoodie in a steakhouse? High-end steakhouse?

• 5:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I do think it depends on how it looks. I think I can wear a hoodie that is like, this is a, I'm going for a walk after working out at the gym kind of hoodie. And then there's like, I have a nice travel hoodie. You know, that's like, you can have on a cashmere hoodie that looks very crisp and looks really nice and looks kind of elegant. So I don't think people need to be policing the types of clothing by item. I think they need to look at how somebody is dressed. Just say, we have a dress code that we enforce. You don't have to put the items on there. Like, that's all, like, just say, you have to be dressed nicely.

• 5:54Joe Flamm?

  Right, and it's, it's, it's weirdly like, just because there's kind of a more party atmosphere to these steakhouses where it seems to come up much, much more than any other restaurants.

• 6:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Joe Flamm?

  But it was just funny, see, like Ruth, I was like, Ruth Chris?

• 6:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, of all steakhouses to institute a dress code?

• 6:11Joe Flamm?

  It was like, somebody commented and said, why don't you work on not having a shitty ass name for a steakhouse instead of this? And I was like, that's. I love the internet, but you know, the Chili's just tweeted up something like, yeah, like just come as you are. It's Chili's.

• 6:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Chili said, as long as you are dressed, that is our only dress code.

• 6:28Joe Flamm?

  The best.

• 6:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Back to the no shirt, no shoes, no service thing.

• 6:33Joe Flamm?

  Right. They're like, you got a shirt on, you come to Chili's.

• 6:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. People dress more casually now than they used to in general. And yes, if you want to have a really nice steakhouse, have it really beautifully decorated because then you feel like this is the kind of place I dress up to. Boulevard, you've got that beautiful staircase, that massive chandelier. It evokes the feeling of I want to get dressed up to come here. Roost Chris, I'm like, I got flip flops. I just left the beach. Roost Chris is the kind of steakhouse I'm going to after the beach. I'm not going to Boulevard. I'm here for Roost Chris having a fucking seat on this.

• 7:08Joe Flamm?

  There's not a lot of times you'll hear me say this, Chutam, but uh, I'm team Chili's on this one.

• 7:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, I have a special surprise today.

• 7:20Joe Flamm?

  I love a surprise.

• 7:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. So you know, we have not done fork it or forget it in a while, right?

• 7:26Joe Flamm?

  It's been a while.

• 7:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  It has been a while and you know, I kind of have a soft spot for these viral recipes that I see online. And once in a while, they really pique my interest because they really look so damn good.

• 7:40Joe Flamm?

  What, what got you this time?

• 7:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. So I have a little show and tell. Are you ready?

• 7:45Joe Flamm?

  Is it another baklava?

• 7:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, God, no. I made the wonton lasagna.

• 7:52Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I've seen this one. This is the one where you layer all the wonton wrappers and then like the pork and like the, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have seen this one.

• 8:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, it's like everything you want, right? It's like a dumpling, but a bigger portion.

• 8:07Joe Flamm?

  It reminds me like those bakes, like you'd have like, you know, like grow it up or like you'd get them at like a cafeteria in high school. They'd be like, oh, this is the Mexican enchilada bake. And it wasn't really an enchilada and it wasn't really Mexican, but it was like ground beef and a bunch of things like baked together, but it was like awesome. And it kind of had like lasagna crust to it.

• 8:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Damn, this is good.

• 8:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  They got it right.

• 8:35Joe Flamm?

  Is it? Okay. Here's my question though. Is there a crispiness to it?

• 8:40Joe Flamm?

  Cause I like it. I do enjoy a crispy dumpling.

• 8:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  There is no crispiness to it because it is steamed. So the top layer of wonton dough gets nice and supple and soft. The only texture in this is coming from the chili crisp that I put on top and it is delightful.

• 8:57Joe Flamm?

  Should we talk about how insane it is that you bake that in a ramekin instead of a Pyrex?

• 9:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, the recipe I saw had little individual ramekins. It was beautiful.

• 9:08Joe Flamm?

  Little individual ramekins?

• 9:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 9:10Joe Flamm?

  I've seen it like a Pyrex, like it's supposed to be like a lasagna, right?

• 9:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think so.

• 9:14Joe Flamm?

  Who's making individual lasagnas and tidy ramekins?

• 9:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Look, the recipe I saw that had over a thousand five star reviews, they were baked in ramekins. So I baked it in a ramekin and I also don't have a Pyrex here. So.

• 9:28Joe Flamm?

  That's crazy.

• 9:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Say lovey. So here I am with my ramekin and I made one for Steven too. So he can have his later, but this is fricking delicious.

• 9:38Joe Flamm?

  Does look really good.

• 9:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God. Do you take a break and I eat this?

• 9:41Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Send me one of those. All right. So I'm forking that. I'm with you on that. I would have baked it in a Pyrex because I'm a reasonable human. That's the only, the only part you would have stray of this.

• 9:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  This is so good though. Holy shit.

• 9:52Joe Flamm?

  All right. All right. I'll give it a fork it. So that's a fork it for you.

• 9:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. The internet one.

• 10:02Joe Flamm?

  So I think we got to get back into something that we talked about recently. Cause it feels like they almost heard the conversation.

• 10:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 10:12Joe Flamm?

  Maybe it was all the tags.

• 10:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think I know who you're talking about.

• 10:16Joe Flamm?

  But your good buddies in France, your favorite tire company, Michelin, has seemed to have changed the playbook a little bit lately.

• 10:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. What are they up to?

• 10:30Joe Flamm?

  Where, you know, from like inspector profiles almost on the like I've seen on their social media to try to add transparency to that thing where it was like the food of, what do they call it? Food of the American South?

• 10:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, they had

• 10:46Joe Flamm?

  Is that what that post was?

• 10:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  We love dishes we love of the American South or Southern cuisine dishes that we love at Michelin. It was just like, what? But you know, the thing that I found crazy also, so you know, a restaurant has a Michelin star because they get that red plaque.

• 11:03Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, with the one star on it.

• 11:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or two or three.

• 11:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it used to be shaped like a star.

• 11:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's the Michelin has the like bubble six point star.

• 11:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  With rounded edges and then they went to the red square plaque.

• 11:18Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it had the star, it had the, it had Michelin guide, it had the name of the restaurant, but above Michelin guide, there's a blank red space. It had the number of stars that that restaurant had. Now, Michelin is creating the Michelin guide or recommended restaurants that don't have stars, no Bib Gourmand, but they're sending out plaques to all these restaurants.

• 11:43Joe Flamm?

  Right. I don't understand because it's not Bib Gourmand. It's recommended.

• 11:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's recommended, but that's just like, we have a dining guide to, you know, to Denver, Colorado. So here's, here's a bunch of restaurants we ate at there. Here's the ones with Michelin stars and they're just sending plaques to everybody. Every single restaurant, it used to be very definitive that if you saw that red plaque, you knew that they had one, two or three stars.

• 12:12Joe Flamm?

  Well, and that was also, it was a really big day. It was a really big day, like when that star showed up every year, you know, that was like a cool thing. It would show up in the mail and we'd always, you know, like take a picture with it and like be like, oh, we got our stars, you know, like, um, but yeah, so then they started sending out these recommend, the recommended plaques. Which I don't. Like, you know, it's all this, their transparency stuff like I felt like they just like sent them.

• 12:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think so too.

• 12:40Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, like, like we got one at Rosemary. They sent me one.

• 12:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, did you put your plaque up?

• 12:46Joe Flamm?

  I did not.

• 12:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Why not?

• 12:48Joe Flamm?

  Well, like my chef texted me. She was like, what's this about? And I said, I don't really know.

• 12:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my gosh. So you didn't put the plaque up?

• 12:56Joe Flamm?

  No, I don't know where to put it. Uh, but like, so like we have it, but I also like, it feels weird to put it up. It's like, like, oh, so you guys have a star. It's like, no. It's like, oh, but they give you a plaque. It's like, yes. They're like, so what does that mean? It's like, that means they like us, but they don't like, like us, like us. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like they're flirting.

• 13:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like, you know, it reminds me of.

• 13:17Joe Flamm?

  Like they're flirting, but they're not interested. I'm not sure. Like, I'm very confused. Like this is, you know what I mean? Like the most Facebook poke of, of plaques, you know, like it's, it's very confusing.

• 13:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  But you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of like participation trophies, but you have to be good to get it, but it's still like you're, we're not giving you a star, but we will, we'll say that we ate here and we liked it. So it's kind of like the participation trophies of the Michelin world in a way.

• 13:47Joe Flamm?

  And it's weird that they didn't give us like the restaurants clarity on us.

• 13:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay.

• 13:54Joe Flamm?

  They weren't like, hey, this is a new thing we're doing. You're being included in this as a Michelin recommended restaurant. It was just like a plaque showed up. And also mine was like, said northeast. So I was like, northeast of what?

• 14:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Is that how Michelin defines the regions?

• 14:11Joe Flamm?

  Northeast of like Omaha.

• 14:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Of the Mississippi River, like.

• 14:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like northeast of St. Louis.

• 14:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  So to me, it shows how little they know about American cuisine. It shows how little they know about America.

• 14:25Joe Flamm?

  What do you mean? They love food of the American South.

• 14:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I mean, it, to me, it's so disingenuous. It really seems like Michelin is just, it's just a marketing play. They're really just trying to gain more visibility among American diners because they're a European company. And people look at them and say, oh, they only recognize European cuisine in America. And they're trying to say, oh, we love Southern cuisine. You know, we have the biscuits here. We have the fried chicken here. You know, we have this Caribbean cuisine. Ooh, look, we a jerk. And it's like.

• 15:02Joe Flamm?

  We love.

• 15:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  But they don't, but they don't get it. They don't get it. They don't get America even enough to recognize Chicago is in the Midwest. If they're calling it Northeast, like, what did they just break the country up into four quadrants?

• 15:15Joe Flamm?

  This is the thing that drives me nuts with them. And I know there's lots of things and we've talked about it at length of all the things that they do that drive us nuts. But it's like, just tell us what the fuck's going on.

• 15:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 15:28Joe Flamm?

  Like, why, like, listen, it's really nice for the team to get recognized, any way, shape, or form. My team works their ass off. That squad over there is so good. You know what Christine's doing over there? We're almost five years in, and I think the place has genuinely never been better. It just keeps getting better, you know, because of the people that are there every day, and how hard they work and how passionate they are about making it better. And so, anything that recognizes their hard work on a national or international level, yo, that's fantastic. That is absolutely fantastic. It's great for the team. It's great for us. But if like, like genuinely, when you ask me, you're like, well, what does that mean?

• 16:12Joe Flamm?

  It's like, I don't know. I don't know how to explain that to my chefs. I feel like, like, like when my little kids ask me something that's too complicated, and I'm like, I don't know how that shit works. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like, like, why does that satellite work? It's like, who knows? Like, you know, ask somebody who's a satellite scientist. Like, I'm not them.

• 16:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  This is gonna sound weird, but I'm going to their website right now, and I'm gonna try to see if they even can answer that question, because it seems like they don't have any clear direction about what they're doing. I feel like Michelin has gotten out a little over their skis in the US market. They don't really understand the diversity. They don't really understand the regional cuisine. They're kind of just going off of stereotypes and lumping things in together.

• 16:57Joe Flamm?

  The French should know better. This is Napoleon in Russia. You know what I mean? This is, he just didn't realize how big it was. You know, it's like, they should know better. And I think it's like weird. It's like, I don't know who the head of Michelin is. I don't know anyone who works for Michelin in Chicago, because it's all cloak and dagger, you know, secret society type shit. So it's like, there's not anyone to ask.

• 17:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:17Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? It's not like where it's like James Beard, you know, who works at the foundation. You know what I mean? You can like get ahold of people if you chose to, I would imagine. I don't know. I've never tried, but like I would assume if I wanted to talk to someone, maybe someone would talk to me, at least like I could find their name. But like, that's the weird thing. It's like, I don't even know like where to begin to be like, oh, hey, you know, like, I'll just go to the Michelin office downtown, like next to the DMV and wait in line with my plaque and be like, hey, I got this plaque in the mail. What does this mean? Like, you know?

• 17:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, okay, I will tell you what it says here. Can I tell you what I found? Okay.

• 17:50Joe Flamm?

  Tell me.

• 17:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Michelin selected is what they're calling it. And it says it's often associated with the Michelin plate, or simply suggested or selected by the Michelin guides. And these are accolades that are awarded to restaurants that offer good food, quality ingredients and skilled cooking, but do not meet the strict criteria for a star or a bib gourmand.

• 18:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  So it's a good meal, considered worth visiting, often offering a more accessible dining experience than starred restaurants. So it is distinctly different from bib gourmand stars. And it says here, they are introducing this to recognize more establishments with quality food shifting from the previous Michelin icon to just being a selected restaurant.

• 18:41Joe Flamm?

  It feels like they could have just adjusted the bib gourmand for inflation.

• 18:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.

• 18:47Joe Flamm?

  Like, because that's what it seems like this is. It's like, it's a little bit too expensive to be a bib gourmand, but you're a bib gourmand.

• 18:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And it's like, if you have a very strict criteria for what is a bib gourmand, a one, two, three star, you're really just trying to get more people to buy your guides. You're just trying to get more clicks on your website. So you can get more ad revenue. That's all you're doing here is you're trying to increase visibility among a market that doesn't like you. Americans largely are like, oh, we need Europeans to come in and tell us what food is good.

• 19:21Joe Flamm?

  Man, that's from, from, from our last conversation about it. That's sure as hell how it feels like is everybody was like, you know, we don't need them to tell us shit.

• 19:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 19:31Joe Flamm?

  So yeah, that's like the strange thing. So that's, and that's completely what it feels like, right? You know what I mean? It's like, oh, hey, like, we're just saying like, this is a really good restaurant in this city, but like, we don't want to give it like one of our buckets. So we're trying to find another bucket to throw like places where it's like, we don't care about being good for them, but we think they're good for us as a brand. Cause that's what it feels like to me. You know what I mean? Is they're saying like, we think Rosemary is good for Michelin visibility and for the Michelin brand, but we don't think we owe Rosemary anything. We don't think they're good enough that we're going to like actually give them a Michelin star, or you know what I mean? Are reasonable enough that we're going to give them a big gourmand, but we, we really like the idea of, you know, our name next to theirs, but we're not.

• 20:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 20:15Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? So it's like, well, then yeah, I'm not hanging your fucking plaque on the wall.

• 20:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it's interesting that the places that I've seen, they're sending these plaques out to places that do amazing food that to me should at least have a bib gourmand adjusted for inflation, because you're right, it's hard to be super affordable. You can't pin a certain dollar amount with today's inflation. They need to adjust that according to the market. You can't just say, here are the parameters for bib gourmand on a pure dollar basis, if you're not adjusting for economics around the world and how much things cost. So they're sending them to restaurants that do amazing food, like Elmina in DC, Haven Mar here in New York, Rosemary in Chicago.

• 21:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  They're sending them to all these restaurants that also attract a certain type of diner. People who know food, people who want to experience food, people who go out to eat and know kind of what Michelin is, but maybe aren't beholden to saying, I only go to Michelin restaurants, or they don't use that as their like clout, like, oh, I went to all these Michelin restaurants. I just. No good food and I go to where good chefs are creating delicious food. And that's the target audience.

• 21:31Joe Flamm?

  I think the validity of the places they picked, and I'm not just saying this from a self-serving standpoint. It's like the other people who I saw seem to get them in Chicago were all places I really like.

• 21:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Joe Flamm?

  Were all restaurants that I was like, are really good.

• 21:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 21:44Joe Flamm?

  But to me, I was like, no, fuck it. If you think they're that good, get off this tasty menu bullshit and give them a star. Give them a star. They're star good.

• 21:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And that's what Michelin, that's the disconnect to me between Michelin's strict criteria, as they say, or strict criteria of what meets it. And good food. So in the U.S., good food does not have to be in a multi-course tasting menu. A lot of American diners don't necessarily want that on a regular basis. And you can do excellent food with incredible technique and really cool flavors and an interesting POV without doing a tasting menu. But Michelin's criteria is set for a country where that is revered and where that is the standard. And they're applying their lens of what they think food should be and the format in which it should be served to a market that has a different set of values.

• 22:39Joe Flamm?

  Right. Because it's just like, you know, I think there's lots of conversations now about like, is the tasty menu dead, whatever in that. And I feel like that conversation circulates every few years, right? And I don't think it is, and I think it still holds place. I just think it's harder and harder for that business model to work. Because it's hard to get a lot of people to do tasty menus every night. I think like on a weekend, you know, a special occasion, like it becomes that. But I think like to get, you know, especially at like the one Michelin star level where it's like the three. I feel like the three is like people traveling from all around the world to go eat there, right? Um, and you could be busy all the time, but like at the one star level where it's like you're, you're a very expensive restaurant.

• 23:20Joe Flamm?

  And like that Tuesday in January, finding, you know, a hundred or 200 people.

• 23:28Joe Flamm?

  Willing to do that on a Tuesday, I think is really, really difficult. And I don't think it's because it's a bad restaurant or Tasty Munch is dead. I just think it's because of the approachability of it of like, it's hard to get a lot of people to spend a lot of money on a Tuesday night. I think New York, you know what I mean? It's kind of an outlier in that just because there's such more of a denser population and there's so much more wealth in New York than any other city in, you know, the United States. So like you see super busy one Michelin star restaurants in New York because it feels approachable for Manhattan. You know what I mean? But it's like, it's not approachable for a lot of cities. So I think like that's where like their skew is wrong too.

• 24:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  So many things about the way they're doing this is wrong. And I really feel like the recommended plaques, while I agree that they have selected excellent restaurants, I don't agree with them sending out plaques because if you, if you're Michelin and you do stars and you do bib gourmand, that is what you do. Stay in your lane. Now you're just trying to become a dining guide. You want ad revenue, you want clicks, you want more customer dollars for the services that you offer. And you're trying to become a voice in a country that you've only entered since the 2000s.

• 24:42Joe Flamm?

  And it feels like the one of those, you know, the old saying in restaurants where they're like, if you try to be everything to everybody, you're going to be nothing to anyone, right?

• 24:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's what Michelin is doing.

• 24:51Joe Flamm?

  It feels like it just deludes the brand.

• 24:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Steven and I were at a restaurant in Miami and they had their recommended plaque up, you know, above the pass of the open kitchen. And the table sitting next to us said, oh, look, they have a Michelin star.

• 25:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I was like, they, I didn't say it out loud, but I'm like, they absolutely do not.

• 25:13Joe Flamm?

  I was like, that would be, that would be like the most like unhinged like behavior. And I would love it so much if you got up and you were like, actually they don't.

• 25:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, I wanted, part of me wanted to.

• 25:24Joe Flamm?

  Also like that would be insane, insane to be like, why are you doing, like, why are you doing this lady?

• 25:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hating on this restaurant because it was a very good restaurant.

• 25:32Joe Flamm?

  Right, and you were like, this should, this could have a Michelin star.

• 25:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  It could, it totally could.

• 25:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  It totally could have a Michelin star.

• 25:41Joe Flamm?

  But you're like, you're like, the context is wrong.

• 25:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 25:45Joe Flamm?

  Like that these people have it. And it's like.

• 25:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  They're so excited that they're, they're like, oh, man, this is a Michelin starred restaurant. And I'm like, should I tell them? No, because then I'm hating on the restaurant. Like, I didn't, I just felt weird to also butt in on another couple's conversation.

• 26:01Joe Flamm?

  I think you should have said something, Mace. I think.

• 26:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think so too, because it's just.

• 26:04Joe Flamm?

  This opportunity on your part to clarify for the general, just walked over and said, Chef Adrian Cheatham from the Chef's Cut Pod. Let me get in here real quick. Pulled up a chair.

• 26:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like, whoop, blow the referee whistle and I just appear and like tell people.

• 26:16Joe Flamm?

  Steven's like, I'll take, I'll take the check. I'm actually leaving.

• 26:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  We're actually leaving right now. But that's, yeah, I mean, going back to the conversation about dress code. So how Michelin, a lot of restaurants were jacket required and then started to relax that because society relaxed how we dress. People now dress a lot more casually than they used to dress for work, for going out, for everything. So the culture has shifted in terms of what we like, what we eat, what we find important, especially after COVID. Things changed tremendously and Michelin is like three steps behind at every turn. Trying to keep up with the way things actually are here because it, to me, it doesn't seem like they truly, truly understand

• 27:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  American cuisine, the regions, the diversity, the way that.

• 27:08Joe Flamm?

  They had biscuits. They understand it.

• 27:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, no recommended though. They had no recommended biscuit.

• 27:15Joe Flamm?

  That's crazy.

• 27:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  They even had a post that they did about Caribbean restaurants and the value. I was like, ooh, did, did somebody share our post with them or share our, our episode of it where we asked if they were racist or cuisinist? And, uh,

• 27:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Seems like somebody got the message because they are.

• 27:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So, so Michelin, if you are listening, anybody, anyone over there, you want to come on?

• 27:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, we would love it.

• 27:42Joe Flamm?

  You want to come chop it up with us? Please hit the hotline. Hit the hotline. Hit the chef's cut DMs and say, hey, we'll, we'll block out your face. We'll give you like, they give you like the worst we've ever had, always at the bar.

• 27:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh yeah. Well, we'll even go in studio together, Joe.

• 27:58Joe Flamm?

  Dude, I'm signing, I'll sign an NDA. Signed plenty of NDAs I haven't read. So let's go, let's go. Everybody out there, Chef's Cut Pod, putting you all on there. Find your local Michelin person. Find them out. Get them on the pod. Let's get our questions answered.

• 28:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 28:14Joe Flamm?

  It's a goal for 2026.

• 28:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  We gotta get to the bottom of this.

• 28:16Joe Flamm?

  We're gonna storm the Michelin headquarters in France.

• 28:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, this Michelin conversation's got some legs. I can honestly say I'm still pissed off about so many things about it. So I really feel like this conversation will keep coming up.

• 28:33Joe Flamm?

  Feels like it will. It feels, I mean, people are still commenting on the last conversation. It's like, you know, it's, it's still like that one went, went hot and you think it's so niche because of like our industry and what Michelin is and you know what I mean? Not, you know, it's still being new to the US and new to so many markets here and they keep expanding and going different places. And, you know, now they're going to do Southwest and now, and it's like, they can't possibly have the bandwidth. They would have to have so many inspectors.

• 29:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  The James Beard Awards gets American cuisine. That needs to be recognized to me above Michelin because Michelin came from the outside. The whole point is that that is a way to recognize excellence. Are you making excellent food? Period. Then you can win an award.

• 29:23Joe Flamm?

  And like, that's.

• 29:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now, Michelin saying, you gotta do this and this and this and this.

• 29:27Joe Flamm?

  Are you making excellent food? But I think with all things across all ports, it's like, there's a level of food and it's like, that should be it.

• 29:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Joe Flamm?

  That should be, that should be it. Like, that's what it's supposed to be. According to everyone's bullshit that they put out there. It's like, it's about the food. It's about the food. Like blah, blah, blah. It's like, all right. Then like be about it.

• 29:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think Michelin needs to stay in their lane. One, two, three stars. Bib Gourmand, adjusted for inflation. Leave the rest alone. Leave America to the Americans. Leave American cuisine to the Americans who know.

• 30:01Joe Flamm?

  Who do Adrian was gonna get so patriotic today?

• 30:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, right?

• 30:06Joe Flamm?

  I'm gonna go get my goddamn ram now, brother.

• 30:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Screaming eagle flying overhead.

• 30:11Joe Flamm?

  See, I think we should like maybe just go the opposite route. You know, we should start talking about like Goodyear or like Firestone and be like, let's, let's get a, let's get a new thing going here. Like, you know, let's, you know, some, some homegrown talent. We're gonna.

• 30:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Can we get the Ford dining guide? Ford Motors?

• 30:29Joe Flamm?

  Go tire company for tire company. Get one of those Japanese tire brands, except it would be like, no one would have three stars.

• 30:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Everybody gets like a half.

• 30:36Joe Flamm?

  It would be one restaurant in the world with one star. That'd be it.

• 30:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, Joe, this is a blast. Oh, man. This is fun. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna finish my wonton lasagna, though, after we finish. Speaking of excellent food.

• 30:53Joe Flamm?

  That's a one star lasagna right there.

• 30:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right. That is it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube where you can find full-length videos of every episode. And be sure to follow us on IG at The Chef's Cut Pod. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been The Chef's Cut. Life beyond the past.