The Perfect Steakhouse Order, Golden Diner Pancake Mania, and an All-Access Pass into the World of Cookbooks

This week, Adrienne and Joe are back and giving us their reaction to the viral Golden Diner pancakes everyone is talking about. Joe prepared a batch at home and shares his honest opinion on whether they’re worthy of the hype. Plus, we discuss: What’s your go-to steakhouse order? Adrienne’s controversial opinion on A1 steak sauce Cookbooks: All the inside info on what it takes to go from idea to reality Insights on testing recipes for a book Walk In Confession: Adrienne’s cookbook hit a snag thanks to an unrelated controversy in the publishing world Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Welcome back to the chef's cut. I'm Adrian Cheatham.

• 0:04Joe Flamm?

  And I am Joe Flamm.

• 0:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, why don't you tell everybody what we have going on this week?

• 0:09Joe Flamm?

  All right. So we're going to get personal, talking about steak houses. You got a fork and then forget it. Talking about one of my favorite things, pancakes. A little bit of review, review, bringing it back for the gang, a line check where I want to get into one of my favorite things, cookbooks. And I think you're overdue for a trip to the walking age.

• 0:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm up for the confession this week. All right, Joe, let's do this.

• 0:30Joe Flamm?

  Let's get into it.

• 0:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, last time it was just you and I, you asked a very personal question. And I want to ask you a similar personal question because there are types of restaurants you go to that no matter what city you go, they're gonna kind of have the same offerings. A diner is one of those.

• 0:53Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 0:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  And another restaurant like that is a steakhouse.

• 0:57Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 0:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  City to city, they might be tailored a little bit. The chef might put their touch or their spin on certain things, but by and large, a lot of the same menu staples repeated. It's like brasseries, diners, bistros, steak houses. You know what you're gonna get, right?

• 1:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I feel like it's one of those genres where it's like you go to a steakhouse and you already have in mind, kind of, right? When you're going in, you're like, I know what I get at a steakhouse, right? It's not like, oh, what do they do here?

• 1:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. It's like you're not breaking too much new ground there. So what is your go to steakhouse order?

• 1:32Joe Flamm?

  Oh, yeah. So I am a, if I'm doing a martini, it's a gin martini, like absolutely filthy blue cheese olives.

• 1:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 1:43Joe Flamm?

  Like all the brine, all the salt, all the sodium.

• 1:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 1:46Joe Flamm?

  Just, just hit me with it.

• 1:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  My feet are swelling just thinking about it, but it's delicious.

• 1:50Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like your ankles should be bigger by the end of that, that cocktail.

• 1:56Joe Flamm?

  And then I would say I'm a, I'm a wedge salad. I love a wedge salad.

• 2:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:01Joe Flamm?

  Give me the blue cheese, give me the bacon, like classic, classic wedge salad. I love it. I love a, like every time I go to a steakhouse, gotta get the wedge. Gotta see what's going on with it.

• 2:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I mean, that's the best use of iceberg lettuce ever. I'm sorry.

• 2:13Joe Flamm?

  It is. And it's like, and I mean, I'll do a shrimp cocktail. I'll do a little seafood tower. If you know what I mean, everybody's trying to get down to it. But if it's like, if it's just me, it's like web salad all day, every day, baby. We're getting one for the table no matter what. And steak cut, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going ribeye.

• 2:32Joe Flamm?

  I'm going ribeye. I'm, I'm a, I'm a ribeye guy, which is probably not shocking. In my thick Midwestern self, uh, but, but I love a ribeye. You know, I don't need a sauce on a steak, but if I'm going sauce, I mean, a really good au poivre.

• 2:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:49Joe Flamm?

  It's pretty hard to beat.

• 2:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you go au poivre over Bernaise?

• 2:53Joe Flamm?

  I do. Yeah. I do. I love a Bernaise. Bernaise would be a close second, a very close second. I love a Bernaise, especially like, cause I'm always, I'm going to kick a side of fries on there too. So it's like, and au poivre and Bernaise are both top, top tier dipping fry sauces.

• 3:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Yeah, they are. They're like creamy, acidic and peppery.

• 3:16Joe Flamm?

  I also like, don't need the sauce with my steak, but also now like, I think running a steakhouse, it's like, I will order every sauce on the menu. I want every sauce. I'm like, you know what I mean? Like a 22 year old at McDonald's, like give me 11 sauces with my McNuggets. Like that's what I also, I'm like, okay, I'll take the Bernaise, the chimichurri, the, um, the poivre, the bordelaise and the, you know, whatever bone marrow, starburst gastric. I don't care. Like send it, send it. I want it.

• 3:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm here for all of that.

• 3:47Joe Flamm?

  I want it. And then I want all the big stupid desserts. I want that, you know what I mean? Slice of cake that's twice the size of your head. And you know what I mean? All those things. That's, that's my steakhouse go-to.

• 3:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  What about sides though? Like, do you do sides with your steak? Just fries or is that it?

• 4:02Joe Flamm?

  Fries is always the number one, but it's always, you know, like, I will say like, a really good cream spinach.

• 4:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. I was just thinking cream spinach.

• 4:12Joe Flamm?

  Really hits it for me.

• 4:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Joe Flamm?

  Like, I think it's an underrated side. If you look at cream spinach, it's like, but when it's good, it's so, so.

• 4:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like you can tell the difference when they use like fresh spinach that they chop up versus like frozen chopped spinach. And when it's done well, it's one of those things that you're just like, oh, this is what it's supposed to taste like.

• 4:35Joe Flamm?

  This is awesome. All right. What about you, AJ? What's your, what's your, cause I have in my mind what I.

• 4:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I'm definitely a martini and shrimp cocktail to start.

• 4:46Joe Flamm?

  What's your martini?

• 4:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  It depends. If I'm with my sister, we're going vodka. If I'm by myself at the bar, I'm gonna go gin, slightly dirty.

• 4:56Joe Flamm?

  Does Jackie not allow you to order gin?

• 5:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  We just tend to drink vodka when we're together. I don't know. And then also, if I'm with my husband, he doesn't drink gin. So usually like a martini is kind of aggressive for me these days. So I'm like, hey, can we split a martini? And he doesn't like gin. So if I'm splitting my martini, I need to go vodka. But if I'm solo at the bar, you know, I'll go gin martini, slightly dirty, just ever so slightly. I just want the, the like edge of the brine. I just want to know it's there.

• 5:29Joe Flamm?

  Just a touch?

• 5:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, just a touch. And then, of course, a shrimp cocktail.

• 5:33Joe Flamm?

  What about olives for your martini? Are you on regular? You go blue cheese? What's your?

• 5:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  I used to go blue cheese. I actually worked at a restaurant that had blue cheese stuffed olives and the waiters hated me because I would steal them out of their bar trays and they had to do them by hand. But it kind of like, I kind of had so many of them that it lost the luster. So like, I'm down with like just a normal pimento stuffed or just a plain olive, but I do like extra olives in it. So I'll ask for like another skewer. You know, like make a meal out of it. Come on, give me all the olives.

• 6:06Joe Flamm?

  Give me a little aperitivo with my martini.

• 6:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. And then my steak cut, depending on how many people I'm with, is gonna be porterhouse. So I get both sides. Oh, I can try a little bit from each cut. Oh, that's like my ideal. Yeah. But usually if it's just me and like one other person, I'll either go New York strip or ribeye.

• 6:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Side of cream spinach a hundred percent. I usually don't do fries at a steakhouse. I usually ask for a baked potato.

• 6:37Joe Flamm?

  Baked potato?

• 6:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. Yes.

• 6:41Joe Flamm?

  That's such a like old person order, like with your rye toast. You know what I mean? You're like, oh, you know, instead of bread service, can I get dry rye toast with my steak and baked potato? And only, only bring me half of the baked potato. I'm gonna take the other half home with me.

• 6:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. Leave it wrapped in foil.

• 7:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  I do like Parker House rolls. If they've got them, I'm definitely getting those.

• 7:05Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  But yeah, man, I love a fucking baked potato. What can I say?

• 7:09Joe Flamm?

  All right.

• 7:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I like to put, you know, like you fork it up and then you get the butter in there and mix it.

• 7:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like I know how a baked potato works, but it's just like, I don't know. I feel like.

• 7:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  When I was, when I was nine, I wrote a cookbook on baked potatoes. No lie.

• 7:25Joe Flamm?

  How long was that cookbook?

• 7:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Probably about five pages.

• 7:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. I will say though, it's one of those weird things. Like a baked potato kind of, it's whatever for me, but it's like, whenever like, you know, one of my chefs will do like baked potato bar for comida. I feel like everybody loses their goddamn mind. It's like, oh, this is the best day. I was like, this is not a meal. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and I've worked a baked potato station at like Food Life and Water Tower Place. They used to have a baked potato station where you get these monster baked potatoes and you get like cheese and like everything over it. And it was a whole station of just baked potatoes. And I was like.

• 7:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wendy's used to do a baked potato and they had that little carton thing of butter that you could squeeze out. I used to go to Wendy's and get a baked potato.

• 8:06Joe Flamm?

  With the Wendy's chili over the top?

• 8:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm a baked potato fiend. I have been since I was a kid. Ask Lisa, ask Haley, ask Jackie. They all.

• 8:17Joe Flamm?

  Sauce, no sauce. What's?

• 8:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Sauce with my steak, I would prefer a poiv or bordelaise. I like bearnaise, but sometimes it's a little too rich for me. But once in a while, I'm not going to front like I only do fancy sauces. Hit me with that A1.

• 8:35Joe Flamm?

  Oh, no.

• 8:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hit me with the fucking A1. Yeah, I'm good.

• 8:40Joe Flamm?

  No.

• 8:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or even just like a couple dashes of Worcestershire on the plate. I can drag it through. Oh, oh, you have not lived.

• 8:47Joe Flamm?

  A1?

• 8:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  A1. I look, I'm being honest here.

• 8:52Joe Flamm?

  Somebody.

• 8:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm trying to like be honest with you, Joe. I could front like I only like bearnaise.

• 9:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. I thought when you said, I thought you were gonna, I, I thought you were gonna hit me with like a garlic butter and then you went all the way to A1.

• 9:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nah, bro. I mean garlic butter, it should be on the steak.

• 9:11Joe Flamm?

  Do you have A1 in your, in your fridge?

• 9:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I might. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't really cook steak at home that much. So I don't know if I actually have it at home. It's like one of those things that I like to go out for because I want the whole experience. Like if I'm cooking steak, it's because I'm having like guests over, but that's, yeah, it's pretty rare.

• 9:30Joe Flamm?

  Damn, A1, that's.

• 9:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Cause I'm also gonna smoke out my house to sear my steak.

• 9:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, that's true. That's true. I, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever get past this A1 comment.

• 9:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, we have talked a lot about long lines and restaurants that people queue up for, for hours. You see this happening in LA, Chicago, Miami, New York, everywhere in between. When something goes viral, it hits big. And sometimes it can be really good, or it can just be like a flash in the pan. People are interested, but then they get it and they find out it's not that good. And you're like, what the hell did I wait in line for? One of those things that's happening nowadays, which I have not tried, is the Golden Diner pancake.

• 10:16Joe Flamm?

  Yes.

• 10:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  That thing is everywhere. And I'm not a big pancake fan. I like crunchy. So I'm a, I'm more of a waffle kind of fan. But I kinda wanna try this pancake. Have you seen it?

• 10:27Joe Flamm?

  I have, I have. I like, and I've seen this and like, you know, I never ate breakfast and then until I had kids. And now it's like, I cook breakfast seven days a week. And I'm basically just a short order cook in my own house. It's like whatever they want. But I've seen that pancake and I watched some videos about it. It looks, it looks so good. It's like really thick. It's got that crust on it. I think they do. I think they do honey and butter on it maybe instead of maple syrup.

• 10:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 10:56Joe Flamm?

  Which wouldn't fly in my house. But, um, you know, we are maple syrup people. Um, but it looks awesome. I keep seeing it. And so I like watched a video on how they made it.

• 11:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 11:08Joe Flamm?

  And I actually, I made one like it the other day.

• 11:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Did you? Oh my God.

• 11:12Joe Flamm?

  Cause they do it in like a really small nonstick so that it's super thick. And then they kinda cook it slow in clarified butter. So it gets like a crust to it. So I just did like the regular, whatever pancake mix I make. And I threw one in there and I made one like that for myself the other day and I gotta say absolutely slap. And it was like, and this was just like regular ass pancake. Like theirs, I think they do a little cornmeal. Like it's like, you know what I mean? They have a whole thing going.

• 11:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Joe Flamm?

  Which did make me really, really want to try theirs. Like the line is hard for me. It's hard for me to wait in the line for anything because I am the poster child for, you know, ADHD. So it's just, it's super hard. It's super hard. You're gonna be, it could be the line to fix all my problems. And I'd be like, I don't know, can't we just white knuckle it for the rest of our life and hope for the best? You know, like, so like that's, that would be a hard thing for me to get over. But I will say like, as far as like viral food things that I've seen on the internet in a long time, like that has been the one that I've probably looked at so, so much and been like, yeah, I really want to eat.

• 12:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, it's like, I saw those cloud pancakes that people were doing, those kind of like jiggly.

• 12:22Joe Flamm?

  Oh, the Japanese, yeah, Japanese style pancake. That doesn't do anything for me. I want, I'm with you. I want the crunch. Cause I like, I like little, we do little pancakes.

• 12:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 12:32Joe Flamm?

  Flavored butter. So they got a little.

• 12:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Silver dollar.

• 12:34Joe Flamm?

  Little, little, yeah, little crunch to it. Little texture.

• 12:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Little texture.

• 12:39Joe Flamm?

  So like the fluffy ones, I'm like, no, I don't want a really, really big fluffy pancake. I like a thinner pancake, but this is a thick pancake. It's got a crust to it. And I'm like.

• 12:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And I saw they, they even had the recipe available in the New York Times. Like that's how

• 12:56Joe Flamm?

  That's.

• 12:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  much. It was like recreated at home. We'll have the recipe available online for a short amount of time. So I like screenshotted it. And as soon as I get back from this trip, I'm gonna try making them.

• 13:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah. I made one and that was, I didn't do their exact recipe. I just made it like in the style that they made it. And I was like, this is awesome.

• 13:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, can we FaceTime and make them?

• 13:16Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Yeah. But this is a fork. It's so hard for me. Like, you know what I mean? Where it's like, the, the line would be tough, but like, maybe I just name drop you and they let me go to the front or something, you know? And so it's like.

• 13:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Not even close.

• 13:29Joe Flamm?

  Like, I know.

• 13:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know anybody there.

• 13:31Joe Flamm?

  I'll just, I'll just be wearing a T-shirt that's you on it. You know what I mean? Like a picture of me with you and like, see what happens.

• 13:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, they'd be like, uh, is that somebody missing? Like, what do you have this person in your shirt for?

• 13:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Your friend is missing. I'm so sorry.

• 13:46Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  But yeah, okay, so it's a fork it for me also, but I want to try it to confirm, but I think we're both, we're both forking it on this one.

• 13:55Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's

• 13:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Here for it.

• 13:56Joe Flamm?

  It's, I mean, my even, you know, like half ass version of it was really good. So it's like, I'm sure the one there and like that slab of butter over the top. Like, I know I'm just like, you know, to be like just such a big boy from the Midwest and I'm just like, oh, you put a slab of butter on it?

• 14:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 14:17Joe Flamm?

  I'm in.

• 14:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm in. Put me in, Coach.

• 14:20Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, and it's, you know, my Italian grandmother used to always say it's like, the only reason we had butter on the table was for, you know, uh, the Irish. Uh, it, you know, because my grandfather was Irish. So you know what I mean? The Italians wouldn't put butter on the table for bread, but my grandma would put it up for my grandpa, basically.

• 14:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 14:39Joe Flamm?

  My Irish grandma put butter on everything. Like when we were a kid, like one of the snacks she used to give us was just graham crackers that it wasn't even butter. You know what I mean? Like, let's be real here. This is

• 14:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Margarine, country crock.

• 14:52Joe Flamm?

  Country crock. Like she would

• 14:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you save the container for leftovers?

• 14:56Joe Flamm?

  You know, you do not throw those out. Those are heirlooms.

• 15:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, yeah.

• 15:02Joe Flamm?

  But, but like graham cracker and she would smear it with country crock.

• 15:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 15:07Joe Flamm?

  Thick, fat layer of country crock. When I was a little kid.

• 15:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Are you serious?

• 15:10Joe Flamm?

  Like, this is going to explain to you a lot about me. I would just like literally like lick the country crock off it and like ask her to like, you know, load it up again.

• 15:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 15:22Joe Flamm?

  To the point where like the graham cracker was like no longer stable. And she'd be like, no, you gotta eat the graham cracker.

• 15:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God. I feel like it makes so much sense. That does not, I'm, I'm both surprised and not surprised in the least at the same time. I love it. Joe Flamm and the country crock. And you talk about me for A1 and you're licking country crock off a graham cracker?

• 15:45Joe Flamm?

  I was a child. I was a child. Okay. I'm not still doing this. I haven't tried it in a really long time. It's kind of, you know, I kind of want to run it back now that I said it out loud. I'm like, man, I haven't had, I haven't had that as like someone who was even in like double digit age years. So it's like, I'm like wondering like, does that still hit? So we might have to try that. When we try the pancakes, we're both going to try graham crackers with country crock too.

• 16:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, done, done.

• 16:09Joe Flamm?

  All right. So we're forking this one. This was a very amicable one, Major. It's a very amicable, nice pancake talk.

• 16:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know. I could also follow up to your last fork it or forget it when it was just us. Let's go in for a round two. Using cookbooks for inspiration.

• 16:26Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 16:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. So why not AI?

• 16:29Joe Flamm?

  I didn't say you couldn't do it. I just said you should say it. We would talk all the time when we use cookbooks for inspiration. We would talk about, like, we would tell the servers, be like, oh, this is where this is inspired from. And, and we, we talk about it. And I think, but it's like, you see, there's a difference of being inspired from cookbooks. And I think over the years, you would see people who straight cookbook cooked, and they would do straight a dish from a cookbook.

• 16:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 16:55Joe Flamm?

  And not change it. You know what I mean? And I think that's the difference. And I mean, like, that's a murky area, whatever. You know what I mean? If you put it out there, you put it out there, right? You can't copyright a recipe. So if you put it out into the world, it's out in the world. Whoever wants to make it can make it. You're putting it out there so they can make it, right?

• 17:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:11Joe Flamm?

  But it's taking something someone made and the, you know, there's the old adage in cooking, right? Nothing's new. We're all just recreating old stuff. But I just think the AI component is like, you didn't even really read. You didn't even, you know, I mean, like, you paid for that book. You paid for that recipe, for the right to do it.

• 17:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you read through the headnotes, read through a lot of it.

• 17:33Joe Flamm?

  Like you supported a chef by buying their cookbook. And so because you supported them, you get to, like the same as you buy a CD, you get to listen to the song. You buy a cookbook, you get the recipe.

• 17:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 17:46Joe Flamm?

  That's how it works. You can read the lyrics in the little book and you can read the recipe in the big book, like, you know, and so I think it's a little bit.

• 17:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  So also I have a question, like when people are, because I haven't done it, but I do know that you can type things into chat GPT and get some information. So chat GPT just like aggregates everything out there. So it's not telling you necessarily where some of these things came from, like who the chat GPT bot is getting inspiration from. It's just like, hey, do this technique with this potato.

• 18:16Joe Flamm?

  Right. They're not, they're not giving you citations.

• 18:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Okay.

• 18:20Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 18:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. So we're kind of disconnecting from the source of the inspiration by just aggregating on AI.

• 18:27Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 18:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Cause you know, this conversation has been ongoing since we talked about it a couple of weeks ago.

• 18:32Joe Flamm?

  It has, and it has been really interesting to me to see people's responses to it. So the, to the. To and for it, and it's it's really funny to me, you know.

• 18:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I always like to to hear people's arguments and like, you know, consider new perspectives that I hadn't considered. I was already like, you know, fine, what's, you know, what's the big deal? Um, like, I, you know, you still have to make it taste good. You still have to take ownership of the execution. Um, but I do, I do like the thought of having watermarks on.

• 19:04Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I just think it's, I just think it's funny as shit. You know what I mean?

• 19:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like labeling food.

• 19:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. The end of the day, the reality of.

• 19:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  GMO.

• 19:10Joe Flamm?

  I- i- is like, is that the recipes are the recipes and it's technique that's over everything, right? Otherwise, everybody would make the best scrambled eggs in the world. That's a really simple recipe. Everybody would make the best pasta in the world. Pasta recipes are very, very simple. But it's about touch. It's about feel. It's about all these little things. And that's what, you know, I mean, the AI can't do, right? At the end of the day, it's you got to put people on a line and make them cook.

• 19:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 19:34Joe Flamm?

  And it's execution. You know what I mean? So it's, you know, I mean, like, i- it's, it's kind of a funny one, but it's like, I've enjoyed people's response to it.

• 19:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, it's been great.

• 19:43Joe Flamm?

  It's bullshit, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, somebody was like, oh, you have a rationale that has a bunch of AI. It's like, yeah, but you can see that the thing's 11 feet tall and weighs 3,000 pounds. I'm not like hiding it in the back. I didn't paint a fake other oven over it. Like, this isn't rationale, you know, but whatever.

• 19:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I mean, but it's cool. Like, as this, as new technology keeps developing, we're gonna keep having these conversations like in our industry, you know, and and beyond, like, it's changing so many different industries. And you think of cooking as so tactile that some of this technology won't make a difference in it. But it is, you know, I didn't realize the extent of it. But yeah, here we are. So that'll be a conversation. I'm sure we'll come back to again, but.

• 20:25Joe Flamm?

  No doubt.

• 20:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Do you want to talk about some review review today?

• 20:32Joe Flamm?

  I think we should get into review review today. And, you know, a- after coming off all the niceties of pancakes, I think, you know, getting into review review. So I went. I went down the rabbit hole and you know, I pulled one up from so Il Carchofo today, we got nominated for Jean Bonchay Award, uh, which is our local awards for Chicago, Jean Bonchay, the famous chef of La Francais. Um, but so the crew over at Il Carchofo, we got best new restaurant nomination, which is, you know, awesome, awesome for the team. Just super proud. You know what I mean? They all work like, you know what opening a restaurant is, everybody works so hard. And I think just anything that says like, hey, you know, we noticed how hard you worked is really, really cool.

• 21:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you're doing a great job.

• 21:15Joe Flamm?

  You get all the naysayers, you get all the haters. And so, you know what I mean? Big win for the team today.

• 21:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's awesome. Congratulations, Joe. I'm so proud of you all because the restaurant is awesome and I love it. Like not just because we're friends, but I genuinely love the food that you put out consistently at your restaurants. But I'm only one person, so I'm really glad that you guys got this recognition for all the great work you're doing.

• 21:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So it's really cool. So I figured in that thing, we had to go down the Il Carchofo rabbit hole and read something bad about it. Because to balance it out for the universe.

• 21:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Just to keep it balanced.

• 21:45Joe Flamm?

  I can't ride too high, Adrian. You know what I mean? It's just not how I'm, I'm operated.

• 21:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, no.

• 21:51Joe Flamm?

  Um, so this is a one star from someone. Uh, this is, this is the whole thing. Try to go in on my birthday. Online says they close at 10:30, but they told me they were closed at 9:45 PM. Update the hours if this is true. One star. That's it. They never, they never went in. They never came in. Also, the confusing thing is, I don't know where they got these hours from. Cause we, our last seating is at 9:30. So neither one of these times are accurate. And I'm not saying that, and this is a problem. Cause like when you pull stuff on offline, sometimes even from our chat GPT friend, they give you bullshit fucking information. So this is, you know, it's like, if you just make a reservation. It'll let you make a reservation, or it won't.

• 22:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 22:37Joe Flamm?

  That's why we have a reservation platform. That's why we do the whole thing, or, or, pick up the phone. Just pick up that phone. You give us a call. I answer the phone. I answer the phone. If I'm sitting in the office, the phone rings more than twice. I pick that shit up. I talk to people on the phone all the time, all the time. Like, can I come in? And I'll tell you this much, if I answer the phone when you call and you call for a reservation, I don't care how booked we are, I'll put that in. Because I'm like, oh, well, I picked up the phone. You asked me, and I'm not gonna tell you now.

• 23:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that is insane. I'm Googling right now the hours so I can see what it says. Yeah, it just tells me the opening hours. It doesn't even tell me like, oh, it says 10pm on Google.

• 23:20Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, and I mean, we're open at 10pm. You could walk into the bar.

• 23:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, got it, but you're not seeing the tables.

• 23:24Joe Flamm?

  But our last seating is at 9:30. So if you want a reservation for your birthday, you have to make that reservation. Our last seating is at 9:30. Now, if you're walking in 10 o'clock, bar's still rolling, come on in, sit down. So have a drink. My rule always, if the pasta cooker is not turned off, we'll still cook.

• 23:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Aw.

• 23:42Joe Flamm?

  That's always my rule. Like, you know, if the pasta cooker's off, like, nah, bro, it's done. You know what I mean? Because if you gotta refill that thing, like, it's a whole operation. If the cooker's off, we're out. If the cooker's on, we're rolling.

• 23:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's going down. But that's back to these reservations where people are rating and they haven't even been there.

• 24:01Joe Flamm?

  They haven't been. They'd never even walked in the space. They just got the tie-brog, and they're like, this sucks, one star. It's like, this is just a conversation. You could've just emailed me.

• 24:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 24:09Joe Flamm?

  You could've emailed me and say, hey, I wanna get in for my birthday, and I'm having a hard time getting a reservation. I would've been like, I will figure that out for you. I want you, I want you to eat here for your birthday. I would love for you to eat here for your birthday. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, those are the ones that are wild to me, where it's like, this isn't a review, this is just a comment.

• 24:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculous, because you have somebody leaving a review based on stars off of not eating there, not talking about anything that went on inside the restaurant. And people really are so disconnected, I think, from picking up the phone and calling people nowadays, that if you see that online, they really underestimate calling a restaurant and asking somebody.

• 24:52Joe Flamm?

  I'm a huge proponent of calling places.

• 24:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Joe Flamm?

  Or stopping in. You're in Paris right now. When I was in Paris years ago, I really wanted to eat at Frenchie.

• 25:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm.

• 25:01Joe Flamm?

  And I couldn't get it. And we were there and it was a heatwave, so people weren't going out. So I was like, I just was like, well, I want to go see Frenchie. So we walked down to the Rue de Nil and you know, it's super cute, super cool. And I just walked into Frenchie in the middle of the day. And Greg Mashad, the chef was sitting there and he was like, you know, can I help you? And I was like, oh, no, I'm just, you know, basically a fanboy. And I was like, oh, you know, like I, I cook in Chicago, blah, blah, blah. Like I'd really love to eat at your restaurant, but you know, we haven't been able to get in. And he was like, oh, when are you trying to come? I was like, I, these are the days I'm here. I'll come any day. And he was like, can you come tonight? I was like, yeah, whatever time you want. And so he got me two seats that night. And so we got to go eat there.

• 25:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is so cool.

• 25:40Joe Flamm?

  So I always think of that. And so I'm always like, if somebody somehow figures out a way to get to me.

• 25:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 25:47Joe Flamm?

  Or if like I physically see them, I'm like, I can't tell them no.

• 25:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? And I'll like figure it out. You mean, cause like somebody's gonna not show up. Even if you got a full book, you're like, yeah, somebody's gonna not show up, right? And you know, like kind of roll the dice on it. And especially if somebody's like, oh, I'll sit at the bar. It's like, oh.

• 26:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I mean, I love bar seating. Like I will always take a bar seat, even if I have a reservation for a table and I see seats at the bar available. I'll ask the host, like, oh, is it okay if we sit at the bar instead? Cause I'm, I just prefer bars.

• 26:17Joe Flamm?

  And you know, this is a funny thing with like having kids. It's like, what about really good buddies? He had kids before I did. And I remember when we were pregnant with our first. I was like, oh, what should we do before we have kids? He's like, eat at the bar as much. He's like, cause once you have kids, you can't do it, right? So it's like, you don't think about it. And then it's like, so it's always something I tell people now too, but it's like, so it's like, especially if it's just like me and Hill going out. It's like, if we can eat at the bar, it's like such a fucking treat.

• 26:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know. It's like Stephen and I met sitting at a bar. We were both at this, um, like Italian, Argentinian restaurant in Harlem. He was having dinner by himself at the bar. I was having a drink by myself at the bar.

• 26:55Joe Flamm?

  An Italian, Argentinian restaurant in Harlem?

• 26:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. It's phenomenal. It's called Venetaria.

• 27:02Joe Flamm?

  That's awesome.

• 27:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's great. I love it. One of my favorite restaurants in Harlem. And I met my husband sitting at a bar. We are both bar people. It's what we do. It's like the core of who we are. And I love that we are so compatible in that way, because when we go out, we like to sit at the bar. And we don't have kids, so we can still sit at the bar, which.

• 27:23Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, you can do whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. I'm so happy for all your freedom and free time and sitting in Paris. Like it's so great.

• 27:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hey, it's work. I'm working. I just left the kitchen. I was like, me and Joe, we got an appointment. I gotta run.

• 27:36Joe Flamm?

  But yeah, that's my rant for the day about reservations. So, you know, people pick up the phone, call a restaurant. Would love to hear.

• 27:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Don't leave a one star review based on something that you could just call the restaurant to double check.

• 27:49Joe Flamm?

  Getting in the line check today, H, I had something I kind of wanted to chat with you about because you know, I'm a cookbook obsessed person. If you can't see the stacks and stacks of cookbooks behind me. And a question I get a lot from people. It's like, oh, you're gonna write a cookbook or you're gonna do this. And I'm always like, I don't think people realize like what a monster task it is. You've obviously done it and I've never done it. I've had many a friends do it. And I kind of want to get into a little bit that to it today because I think it's one, it's super fascinating. I think people don't realize like, you know, it's kind of like opening a restaurant, like how long it actually takes. You know what I mean? So it's like you being, you know, a cookbook author now and you know, wrote a great book.

• 28:32Joe Flamm?

  I kind of wanted to talk about like, what was that process like for you? You know what I mean? What did it go into it? When did it come? Like, how long did it actually take? Like, I think would be my first question from I have a cookbook idea in my head to I have to start this idea, pitch this idea, write this idea. There is an actual book for sale on a shelf. Like, what is that timeline?

• 28:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  That timeline on the low end is about two years. Two year from writing the pitch, sending the pitch out. And I was, I was lucky in a way. I was at this event in New York called Cherry Bomb, which is women in the food space. And they have this annual event and I was speaking on a panel and after this one year, a woman came up to me and was like, hey, it was right after Top Chef. And this woman came up to me. She was like, hey, my name is Sarah Zorn. I'm a cookbook author. I write books for chefs. Cause chefs usually, you know, we're not, we're not known for our writing skills.

• 29:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, if I wrote a book, it would like read like one long text message with zero punctuation and capitalization. People would be like, oh, this dude's insane.

• 29:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, and that's where a co-author comes in because they and I went to journalism school and there's no way I'm able to sit down like it's such a time commitment. Being able to sit down and write everything out and I don't know that process, so it's better to work with a co-author which she. You know, approached me and said, I'd love to work on a cookbook with you. Do you have an agent? No, absolutely not. You know, I've I've been in restaurants for the past sixteen years. I have I have no knowledge of this space, so. She introduced me to her agency, the David Black Agency um out there in New York and I got a book agent. She had a separate agent. We negotiated our contract.

• 30:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Um for her as the co-author and she as the co-author is supposed to make everything come through my voice. So it's like my speaking, my tone, my weird way of communicating things to people. And so she and I spent a lot of time together so she could get to know me. And some of the stories, so I still write all the recipes, but she wrote the intro, the headnotes, like I'll tell her the story. About this dish, tater tot waffles. This is how we used to do them in my house, you know. This is something my mom used to make over here and so she puts all those stories around.

• 31:05Joe Flamm?

  Right, she's like your biographer for it.

• 31:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. So she makes all that kind of come together and she's creating the through line. But when you're pitching, you have to have like a hundred recipes. It's gonna get whittled down. I tell you, I shit you not, like they tell you to come up with like just titles.

• 31:28Joe Flamm?

  Just title, okay, okay, yeah, so you're just like, these are a hundred dishes I'm thinking of.

• 31:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep, but still, that's a.

• 31:35Joe Flamm?

  No, that's still a shit ton. That's a shit ton of recipes.

• 31:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I know people nowadays who are using chat GPT, but back when I wrote my cookbook. I didn't have the luxury of technology to help me, so I'm literally like. Racking my brain because when she came up to me and asked me if I've ever thought about writing a cookbook, I mean, yeah, but it was like. A pipe dream that, you know, I thought about when I was a line cook, but was like, oh, that'll never happen. Let me get back to sauteing this crab. Um, you know, so when she asked that, I'm like, I have, it's not like I've started. An outline or an idea, so we're starting from scratch. So she has to write the proposal. Our agent sends it out. We get bids on it. You know, it's like off market, like bidding on a

• 32:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  house. So it's like even that part of it can be like six, eight months of finding what publisher you're going to go with, who your editor is going to be. It's such a long process. And then you start writing the recipes.

• 32:34Joe Flamm?

  And then you got to shoot it. And then you got to test it, right? So it's like, so from what do you think, like realistically from your book? Day one of you had that conversation with that woman at Cherry Bomb to the day your book came out. What was the realistic timeline?

• 32:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Probably two and a half years because there can be delays. Some people can maybe do it faster. There are some people who turn them out because they're constantly working on them. Like people who write for the New York Times and recipe developers.

• 33:01Joe Flamm?

  But I'm talking about chefs. I'm not talking about those people are professional writers, right? You know what I mean? We are not professional writers. We are people who take big food and make it little food.

• 33:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  And make it pretty food.

• 33:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Cause that's like what I feel like when I talk to people, they're always like, oh, it's like two years. So then it's like, when I think about it in my head, I'm like, oh man, if I was going to write a cookbook, it's like if I started next year, that thing's not going to come out till 2028.

• 33:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, it depends. So yeah, probably. But you also have the luxury of having your restaurants. So if you're doing a Rosemary book, you have menus going back over the years that Rosemary has been open, that you can pull dishes from there. If it's a Joe Flamm personal book, yeah, it's going to take a while. But if it's a book, Rosemary, the inspiration, the dishes, you've got a really strong place to start because you have those menus documented for years.

• 33:51Joe Flamm?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 33:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  So that's, you know.

• 33:54Joe Flamm?

  That's just like, it's wild to me. I think the whole process of it. It's something that like, I've always, you know, dreamed of for sure. But it's just like, I think it's like, I mean, and you know, like. You must have put a tremendous amount of hours into it.

• 34:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. It's like me and Sarah, my co-author, we were talking like almost every day during that two-year process. You know, it's like she's sending me this paragraph to read. She's sending me this intro to review. Wants to get my perspective on this. There's a story I told her about my great aunt in Mississippi, and she wanted to like dig a little deeper into some of that. So, I mean, it's, it's a really in-depth process for two years. And if you're working with a co-author, that co-author, if they're any good, is gonna be like your best friend for that two-year process. And that's, that's even just like, that's on them. And then I'm responsible for the recipes.

• 34:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  So every day, I'm at work or I'm at an event, I'm jotting down ideas for recipes and organizing chapters and thinking about how I want the book to be presented and organized. So there's so much that goes into that. And then when you find, you know, whoever buys your book, if you're gonna be with this publisher, this editor, they'll start looking at the outline and the dish ideas that you put up, and they're gonna say, let's use these, and let's scrap some of these ideas, but let's think of some replacements for those. So at the end of the day, you're gonna have between 80 and like 90 something recipes in your book, which is wild to think about. It can include cocktails, it can include like a sauce or an herb oil,

• 35:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  but it's legit like 90 recipes, you know, in a book.

• 35:42Joe Flamm?

  Right. And they're giving you that number. They're saying, hey, we want you to have this amount to make a book this big.

• 35:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Give or take 20, but that's usually the range between 80 and 95. From what I've heard from some of my other friends who have done cookbooks after, anytime people have questions, they're like, hey, I have a question. I'm like, happy to talk anytime. Also happy to put you in touch with, you know, with whoever I can. And then, once all that's decided, then you have to find your photographer. You have to find your food stylist. You have to make sure your recipes are all tested. Then, it all gets proofed out and edited and whittled down and honed in, and then it gets printed. And so it's like... Two, two years and some change.

• 36:29Joe Flamm?

  And then you gotta go on the road selling that damn thing.

• 36:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, exactly. Which is like another two to four years after that because you are gonna be constantly promoting. And if you have a restaurant, that's great because you can always have that.

• 36:41Joe Flamm?

  Right, you sell it at the restaurant, yeah.

• 36:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. If you're doing pop ups, you can make it part of the ticket price. You know, it's like, it's really great for that, but it is such a long process. And I thought I knew more about it because before I did my cookbook, I worked on two cookbooks for chefs I worked for. So with Eric Repair, I worked with him on the Avic Eric Cookbook, tested all those recipes. Um, did some of the food styling for the shoot, helped develop some of the recipes for the cookbook itself. And then when I was working for Marcus Samuelson, I was with him on the Red Rooster Cookbook Project. And there were some recipes that Marcus is like, we're gonna pull some of these dishes that we already have recipes from Red Rooster menus.

• 37:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  But some of the other dishes, he's like, hey, Adrian, I want a dish called this that has these ingredients figured out. So I'm developing, I'm testing, I did the food styling, like, not the food styling.

• 37:40Joe Flamm?

  Also, I think people don't get it's like a recipe, like a restaurant recipe is not a home recipe.

• 37:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, oh god, no.

• 37:45Joe Flamm?

  They're not the same whatsoever. And they're not written the same. They are not, like in the quantities, you know what I mean? We're making, you know, 12 quarts of shit at a time in a minute.

• 37:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh huh.

• 37:54Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, you know, and then you're like, okay, I need to make two cups of this now. Like I think about, you know, like the, you know, the zucchini fritters at Rosemary, you know what I mean? People ask for a recipe of that. It's like, we make a deep lexion of that at a time, which is like 50 pounds of zucchini. You know what I mean? Like 25 pounds of flour, like, you know what I mean? 10 pounds of onions, you know what I mean? 30 eggs, like, you know, that for the aioli for it, it's like we make it in a 22 quart. Like you have to because we sell so many of them.

• 38:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can fit a small child in that container.

• 38:24Joe Flamm?

  Right. That is, that is two days worth of zucchini prep. You know what I mean? So it's like when they're like, oh, can you cut it down for a home recipe? You're like. All right, just like cross off two numbers from every quantity, but it's like, you know what I mean? It doesn't always equal out quite.

• 38:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, cuz you still have to retest because when you scale things up or down, sometimes they don't work the same. So you still have to test it. And so that was a cool process, but I came in with um with Marcus and Eric. When they were through the pitching process and through that, and I was just working on this one specific part, just the recipes, the testing and cooking the food for the food stylist to style on set. So I thought I knew the process and then when I, when I was working on my own cookbook, I was like, I had no idea. I had no idea about all the other stuff that goes into it.

• 39:16Joe Flamm?

  So through your first one, would you do a second one?

• 39:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  I would, but I would want a clear vision also. I liked my editor, but I wanted some more direction and somebody to really like hone in on certain things. Like I showed up for the cookbook shoot. We did the studio shoots for some of the beauties of just the food, but then we were doing the lifestyle shoot with me, my sister, my mom came in town, my sister's kids, you know, like we all and Steven. So we had like a big family thing.

• 39:45Joe Flamm?

  I think I was busy that weekend. I don't know. I didn't make it out. Can't remember why.

• 39:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  You it was it was COVID. You couldn't fly. Remember? I asked you and Hill to come out. Yeah, I think you had just had a kid, you know, all that.

• 39:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  But we rented a brownstone in Harlem and did like seven days food and family photos. My mom, my sister, her kids, my husband, eating, playing, hanging out, all that fun stuff. But I show up on set, you like, you would think my editor, like I'm I'm I come from a kitchen. So like, I don't do makeup. I don't do my hair. Matter of fact, I had just chopped all my hair off one night having some wine and was like, oh, I think I'd look cute with short hair. And so I show up to set and it like my editor, nobody had ever said, think about the outfits you're gonna wear.

• 40:33Joe Flamm?

  Sure.

• 40:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Have your hair done. Have your makeup done. I show up at the brownstone and the photographer's like, hey, let's get started. Like, do you want to pull your clothes out? I was like.

• 40:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  You mean what I'm wearing?

• 40:45Joe Flamm?

  I'm not naked right now.

• 40:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I was like, I have clothes on. And my sister was like, is somebody doing our makeup? I was like, makeup? It was like, I never even thought about these things.

• 40:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, I would never think about that.

• 40:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. It was wild, but it was, it was a great experience. I would do it again. But I would definitely want somebody to be more involved and like, driving the show.

• 41:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, right on. Well, that's, yeah, that's, I don't know. It's so wildly interesting to me. So who knows? Maybe I'll get into it, H. Maybe, maybe.

• 41:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think you should. I see, I see a few cookbooks.

• 41:17Joe Flamm?

  Will you, will you do my hair and makeup for me?

• 41:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 41:20Joe Flamm?

  All right. Well, if I got that unlocked, then I feel good about it.

• 41:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  I definitely see a few, uh, Joe Flamm cookbooks in the works.

• 41:26Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

• 41:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've got three I could think of already.

• 41:29Joe Flamm?

  Well, I don't know how much, uh.

• 41:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I'm not using ChatGPT.

• 41:32Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. All right. So I think, I think you're overdue for a trip to the walk-in.

• 41:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you're right. I am up for a walk-in confession. And you know what, Joe? Since we've been talking about cookbooks and that whole process, I will share with you a walk-in confession that I haven't really told a lot of people about at all. Not something I've talked about too much. But there was a snag in my cookbook process that caused three to four months of delay. So it was very nerve wracking. And this was in 2020. There was a huge controversy about a book that had come out in 2018 or 19. We're not going to name it. You can just Google it. I was with Clarkson Potter. The editor that was really pushing to get me to Clarkson Potter and work on this book with me, got let go.

• 42:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Before we even finished the first outline of the book. So that.

• 42:29Joe Flamm?

  That's like losing a business partner, like halfway to opening a restaurant.

• 42:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah.

• 42:34Joe Flamm?

  Like an investor just drops.

• 42:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Literally, that is exactly what that's like. And this was, it was a big controversy. So a lot of people actually got let go at that time. Um, and my editor was one of them, you know, whether it was her responsibility, whether she had a part in the stuff that went wrong or not, I'm not sure. But I know that she wasn't there and I had been really excited to work with her. She was like a bulldog. She was just gonna go for it and told me what this book was gonna be and how we were gonna sell it. And then all of a sudden overnight, poof, she's gone. It was heartbreaking. It was really heartbreaking.

• 43:08Joe Flamm?

  That's, yeah, that's fucking crazy.

• 43:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was, and then I had to find a new editor. Then, you know, my agent and I are like, well, should we take one of the other proposals? That we had before and go with a different company or should we stay with this? So that definitely caused a significant delay and a ton of stress during what was already a crazy stressful process. So that's just, that's just one of the many things that can go sideways in the cookbook process.

• 43:34Joe Flamm?

  Did you think about scrapping it then? Were you like, oh, maybe I should, or you know what I mean? Were you just like, well, fuck it, I'm here, I'm going.

• 43:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm so glad I didn't scrap it, but that was something that like, I don't talk about. And that's something that can happen when people are working on cookbooks.

• 43:50Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Your books can fall off of a freight boat in the middle of the China city.

• 43:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, remember that that happened to Hobie from Turkey and the Wolf.

• 43:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Turkey and the Wolf, yeah.

• 43:58Joe Flamm?

  Books were at the bottom of the Suez Canal.

• 44:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  There's so many things like that that can happen. So I'm sure everybody who's written a cookbook has some wild walk in confession. That talks about something that went sideways during their cookbook process.

• 44:15Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I've heard stories of like people where it's like, I had a friend who did a book and like all the pictures. Like were like, the color was like one tone off.

• 44:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no.

• 44:27Joe Flamm?

  And they were like, they were like printed. Like they had just run the first run and like it looked a different way on screen. And then when they printed it, like the colors weren't right.

• 44:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 44:36Joe Flamm?

  And they basically like they had to make a choice of like, okay, we're gonna like, you know, they printed whatever a hundred thousand dollars worth of cookbooks. And like, either we need to like scrap this hundred K worth of cookbooks. And like, we go back, this is gonna push this like another six months, redo everything. Or like, it's a little bit wrong.

• 44:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, man. Oh, that's horrible. That's when like the publisher of the company has to step in and get like, that's above the editor. Like, that's the publisher of the company has to like step in and make that call. And the chef and the chef's agent would have to push for what they want.

• 45:14Joe Flamm?

  I've also heard crazy stories of back in the day of chefs doing cookbooks and like, you know, like you were saying, you helped Marcus and you helped Eric with his book as well. Where chefs, having chefs help them on those books and then that person leaving the restaurant group and the chef going back and having them removed from all the pictures that they were featured in the book before it got printed.

• 45:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 45:38Joe Flamm?

  That's like old school shit. That was like 2010 era shit, but I've, I've heard, I've, I've heard, I've heard stories about that.

• 45:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that is so petty.

• 45:47Joe Flamm?

  Getting their photos pulled like they were supposed to be a big part of the book and then they quit before the book was published and the chef went back and said.

• 45:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, man.

• 45:55Joe Flamm?

  Like it's your ex on the family wedding photos.

• 45:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Having the call that like this editor that I was super pumped about working with, like no longer being able to work with her, that, that was a, that was enough of a curve ball for me.

• 46:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, that would definitely shake me of that project.

• 46:13Joe Flamm?

  Well, age, always a pleasure.

• 46:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, it is always a blast. Seriously. No matter what city I'm in, I always look forward to our time talking together.

• 46:23Joe Flamm?

  Uh, age, I'm in Chicago per usual, but where can they find you trying to keep up with your globetrotting self?

• 46:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, you can keep up with us at the chef's cut pod on IG so that you see all the new guests and all the exciting conversations we have coming up. And Joe, we have some big names lined up in these next couple of weeks. So everybody should keep an eye out. You're going to see some really cool stuff coming up on the chef's cut. Like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So you don't miss a new drop that happens every Tuesday and don't forget to leave a review. Definitely a five star and let us know what you like about the show. So we can keep putting out great stuff for you guys to listen to.

• 47:01Joe Flamm?

  Up for Adrian Cheatham. I am Joe Flamm and this has been the chef's cut.

• 47:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Life beyond the past.