How to Eat Like a Top Chef When You Travel!!

This week, Adrienne and Joe are talking all things travel, sharing their ultimate guide to eating well on the road. From highlighting underrated food cities across the globe to breaking down their insider strategies for finding the best local bites, they cover everything you need to know to plan your next culinary adventure. In this episode: Underrated food cities to add to your itinerary How to find great restaurants when traveling and why you should always ask local chefs and bartenders where they eat The Hotel vs. Airbnb debate and how to choose the right neighborhood for your trip Navigating food tours and the awkwardness of taking local cooking classes as a professional chef Why exploring local supermarkets and grocery store tourism is a must-do travel ritual The experiential approach to eating and embracing unexpected culinary finds Walk-in confessions: Joe's story staging in Florence, accidentally explaining WWE isn't real, and famously not knowing what "basta" means Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Today on The Chef's Cut, we are talking about summertime travel. There are so many underrated food cities out there. How to find great restaurants in any city, no matter where you're going.

• 0:26Joe Flamm?

  If you book at Airbnb, ask your Airbnb host.

• 0:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And whether or not you should book that food tour. Look for the smaller ones.

• 0:34Joe Flamm?

  Smaller ones.

• 0:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  That take you on an, like an off the beaten path kind of thing.

• 0:38Joe Flamm?

  Pay the extra money.

• 0:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  But first, Chef's Cut Nation, you know what time it is. We need 10 seconds of your day. Please go in to rate and review the show wherever you get your pods. It really, really helps.

• 0:58Joe Flamm?

  As we roll into this beautiful summer we're having it. I think one of the things we gotta talk about is a lot of people travel for the summer, right? Chefs included. And so people ask us a lot about like, how, how do we pick where we eat when we go?

• 1:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 1:12Joe Flamm?

  Right?

• 1:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 1:12Joe Flamm?

  And I think when we travel professionally, a lot of times, you know, things are set up for us. But when we get our personal time, like when you're traveling just for you, when it's, you know, Aji's time off and she's going, once you pick that city, like what do you start looking into of like, where you wanna stay and how you get into it? Cause like, obviously we're looking at restaurants, but like, how do you begin? Like, let's say, you know, I'm like, all right, you know, Steven comes up tomorrow and is like, hey, I booked us a trip. We're going to Stockholm for five days.

• 1:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right. Which knowing him, that could happen.

• 1:46Joe Flamm?

  Like, where are you starting once you get that information?

• 1:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Steven is a planner and I am not. I like to kind of walk around a city, but that doesn't always work out because when I'm walking around a city, I'm like, oh my God, this place looks awesome. Or I'll get references or I'll get referrals from talking to people, but then the restaurant's booked. So I've started to become a little bit more of a planner. So once we find out the city and. There are so many underrated food cities out there domestically, abroad. In the U.S. I think Philly, it's blown up recently, but for the past 10 years, I've been telling people that Philly is one of the best food cities in the U.S. It's starting to get that love and Lisbon also. So we'll start with a city and then say we're there for seven days.

• 2:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  We will book at least four meals, maybe two lunches, two dinners. And we'll kind of leave a few things up to like the walk around because we are walkers.

• 2:45Joe Flamm?

  Hold on. Before you get into that, are we booking a hotel or are we booking an Airbnb?

• 2:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay. If it's just the two of us and it's under a week, it's a hotel. If it's over a week or if we're meeting up with friends or family, then it's going to be an Airbnb. Like I'm here in France, in the south of France for two months for work. So I'm at an Airbnb because you don't want to live at a hotel for two months. Like you need to be able to cook and have some groceries.

• 3:14Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? So it's because it's interesting to me. It's like, I was always an Airbnb person whenever like, you know, we were younger, we would go abroad. And I think the funny thing for me now is like, now that I have kids, when you have kids, it's like, you almost have to do the Airbnb because like a hotel is a nightmare. So if it's just like me and Hill traveling, it's like the hotel now is like, we're like, when I went to, you know, Paris, when I was 30, we're like, oh, it'll be so cool to have like, you know, a little like rented apartment in Paris and we'll feel so Parisian and we'll sit on the balcony and smoke cigarettes and drink wine. You know what I mean? Eat local pastries that I bought. And now it's so turned to like, we're going to leave this room and we're going to come back and it's going to be clean.

• 3:58Joe Flamm?

  And that's going to be the coolest thing.

• 4:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I can go downstairs and get a glass of wine, bring it back up to my room. Somebody will make the sheets, somebody will make the bed, change the towels.

• 4:10Joe Flamm?

  And it just disappears. I'm not going to put it in a dishwasher. I'm not going to take it out.

• 4:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't want to. That is the luxury.

• 4:16Joe Flamm?

  Magic.

• 4:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 4:17Joe Flamm?

  Like, so it's like, that's, you know, it's interesting to me. It's like, which I never thought I would be. We've come like now, it's like, oh man, like we're not bringing kids. We can get a hotel. All right, so let's, so, okay. So we're both, we're both team hotel right now for this, for this.

• 4:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Less than a week, just me and Steven hotel all the way, 100%.

• 4:37Joe Flamm?

  Now.

• 4:39Joe Flamm?

  When Adrian Cheatham books a hotel, what's she looking for? Do you pick

• 4:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 4:45Joe Flamm?

  type of hotel first, or do you pick area first? Find the hotel in the area you want.

• 4:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Sometimes it starts with the type of hotel because yes, I'm a rewards person and I love to give my rewards travel. So sometimes it does start with the hotel, but in a lot of cities, it starts with the neighborhood. Because I do want to be able to walk. I don't want to have to take cabs everywhere.

• 5:09Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 5:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you know, even internationally, Uber is is pretty extensive nowadays. So like even here in the south of France, I can take Ubers. Like it's not a big deal, but I do want to be able to walk to town on my day off. I want to be able, or if I'm traveling, I have downtime, I want to be able to walk around an area that people who live there frequent.

• 5:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I want nothing too touristy, but I like a mix of touristy and local. I like those kinds of neighborhoods that offer coffee shops, restaurants, or they come alive at nighttime with wine bars and restaurants. So that's what I'm looking for is something that I don't have to take a taxi every time I want to go out in the city. I want to be able to find an area that's happening enough that I can have stuff to do near my hotel.

• 5:58Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I I agree. Like I look like I'm very much like the area and then like find the hotel around me. Right? So like

• 6:07Joe Flamm?

  in Rome, for instance, I know I love staying around where the Campo Fiori market is. Because the Campo Fiori market is very lively in the morning, very lively at night. There's great bakeries around, cafes, bars, restaurants, right? So but it's also really centrally located where it's like you're not far from the other markets. You know what I mean? If you want to walk to those, which when I'm there, that's really important to me. It's not far. You cross a river and you're in Trastevere. You could walk to, you know, pretty much everything, right? And that's what I love when I'm there. I want to walk around a city. I want to look at the buildings and pretend like I know something about architecture, even though I know absolutely nothing. You know what I mean? Just like, oh, is that post Gothic? I don't know. It could be. But like, like that for me is like, like so important is like the area.

• 6:51Joe Flamm?

  And then I'm like, because I'm like, you know, whatever for a hotel. Like, you know, it's like, I want a nice enough hotel, but I'm not like a hotel. Like I've traveled with people who are like, they, you know, need the best hotel.

• 7:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 7:06Joe Flamm?

  I'm like, I need, I need it to be clean.

• 7:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 7:09Joe Flamm?

  And that's about it. Especially like if I'm traveling with, you know, with Hill, it'll be a little bit nicer. But if I'm traveling by myself, I'm like, I don't care.

• 7:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't care as long as it's in a good area. And that's like, so in Paris, because I go to Paris like four or five times a year for work. And I was staying in different neighborhoods every time. And Joe, I swear, I found the perfect.

• 7:29Joe Flamm?

  Moment.

• 7:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh, Eron D's Mall.

• 7:32Joe Flamm?

  Uh, Eron D's Mall. Excusez-moi.

• 7:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I would stay in a different Eron D's Mall every time. And I finally found one that I loved and it's got my two favorite restaurants in Paris. Freddy's, which is like a wine bar, small plates kind of place. And then Mashama Bailey's restaurant in Paris called Lauret is in the same area. It's in Saint Germain, the sixth, and they're 10 minutes from each other. So I usually stay at a hotel near there because when I get off of work, like I want to be able to walk to a restaurant to grab a glass of wine. Maybe if Mashama's in town, I'll see her and we'll hang out and have a glass of wine. And it's also.

• 8:10Joe Flamm?

  That's wild.

• 8:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  A seven minute walk to the Grand Apisserie, which is the big grocery store that I do a lot of my shopping at. So it's like the perfect location. There's cafes in the morning, there's bakeries. And then it comes alive at night too. So it's got like the best of both worlds and it's got like two different trains that come to that neighborhood. So I can get the train anywhere in the city if I'm staying in the sixth.

• 8:36Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And I feel like this is like my kind of like low key. Like if I don't know, like where I begin, because it's like, there's so much information about restaurants out there, right? Bars and everything, everything, right? But I feel like I will look up like the best coffee shops in the city. Especially when I went to Paris, because like Parisian coffee is not good.

• 8:59Joe Flamm?

  It's not. The French, I don't know what they have going on. But however, before I went there, a friend of mine who had worked in Paris told me, he said, if you want good coffee in Paris, the only place you're going to find it is, he goes, the best coffee shops are all run by Australians. So I Googled Australian coffee shops Paris and I found a neighborhood where there was two. I think it was the 19th is where we stayed. And so I was like, well, if these are there, I know I have to be able to walk to coffee.

• 9:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 9:26Joe Flamm?

  Like that's my favorite thing is like getting up, going and walking and getting my coffee in the morning, wherever I am. Like being able to do that is such a treat for me.

• 9:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  So here's the question, when you're going to a city, whether it's for work or for personal travel, how do you decide what restaurants to go to? Are you looking at the lists that are out there? Are you getting references? Like, what is the Joe method for finding good restaurants when you travel to different cities?

• 10:01Joe Flamm?

  I'd say the first thing I do is if I know anyone in that city, that's my first stop, right? That's my first stop is I'm gonna text them and be like, hey, I'm coming out. I want to come see you. Where else should I go? And I feel like if I do that, if it's, you know, I mean, they're gonna give me three days of stuff because I get that question all the time. People send me a text. They'll be like, hey, I'm coming to Chicago. I want to come have, you know, dinner at Rosemary or Churchill or Tooto, whatever. They're like, where else do I need to go? And the first question I ask them is, where are you staying?

• 10:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, yeah.

• 10:33Joe Flamm?

  So, once they tell me where they're staying, I'll be like, okay, these are the places you should go. So like, first, if I have any sort of contact in that city, I'm gonna flush that out first. If I know anyone who lives there, even if it's like a friend of a friend, I'll hit somebody up. Or if like, one of our friends, like, if, you know, like, obviously, you don't live in Paris, but like, if I was going to Paris right now, I know you've been spending a ton of time in France.

• 10:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'm happy to send you my list.

• 10:56Joe Flamm?

  I would, I would, you know, be like, hey, like, where, you know, I mean, let me know. What am I missing? What haven't I hit? No, you know what I mean? So, like, that's always first for me. Then I'll start like, and it's hard, right? Because there's so many lists. So it's like, you know, like, I'll read, I'll look a bunch, you know, like, Eater has a 38 for, it seems like, every city under the sun. But it's like, those lists are always weird because they're like, they try to be all encompassing. So like, they're not. You know what I mean? Because they'll be like, oh, you should go to like, Alenia and like, Johnny's for a beef. And it's like, that's no one's trip. Like, you know, like, that's just not anyone's trip to Chicago. But I think it's like, I'll look at that, look at some things, and then...

• 11:42Joe Flamm?

  Like from that, try to like cross-reference it, you know, just like look up articles about those restaurants.

• 11:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  You'll see a lot of crossover on those lists too. Like the eater list, the timeout list. There's so much crossover on these different lists that I love to see. Cause when I see that crossover, I'm like, okay, that's giving me notice that like this restaurant that I keep seeing on different lists. If I've seen it on five different lists and there's very little crossover on those lists, then I'm like, okay, I need to put that place on my list of places to visit, either for lunch or for dinner and it's gonna happen. And then like, I love if there's a chef that I've talked to in the city, even if I don't live there, even if I don't know the person personally, if I have a conversation with a chef or a bartender in any city I visit,

• 12:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  I always ask the question, where are you going to eat on your day off?

• 12:38Joe Flamm?

  A hundred percent.

• 12:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Where are you eating? That's what I want to know. And that is where I'm a hundred percent gonna make a reservation or walk in if I have to.

• 12:47Joe Flamm?

  Right, no, then that's like, that's, you know, my, my number one, once I'm in a place. It's like talking to anybody who talked to me, you know, even like, you know, the great one too, like if you book at Airbnb, ask your Airbnb host.

• 13:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah.

• 13:01Joe Flamm?

  You know, like especially like, you know, when we would travel to Croatia, like, cause Croatia, you know, we were traveling there like 2017, 2018, 2019. Like it was a lot more difficult to make reservations. Most platforms weren't online, so it's like you needed somebody to call and you needed somebody to call who spoke the language.

• 13:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Joe Flamm?

  So like, I would either have to have my father-in-law call or I would talk to my Airbnb host and I'd be like, hey, we're staying in, you know, Zagreb for two days. Like where do we need to go? Like where do you eat? And they'd be like, oh, go to this spot. You know, and they'd be like, oh, it's a friend of mine. I'll call him for you. So it's like I had some Airbnb people who like, you know, would call like book me a reservation of like spots. Cause then it was like, you know, it was good for their friends too. I'm like, hey, I have an A top. You know, I have an A top. We're going to come spend a bunch of money.

• 13:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, where should we go? They're like, oh, go to my, go to my dude's spot, go to my friend's spot. She'll, you know, be get you guys in and, you know, we do it up. So like that one also is like a really good one. It's like if you, especially if you're traveling internationally, if you have an Airbnb host, that's like an actual host who lives in that city. Be like, hey, where should I go eat? What should I do? You know what I mean? Like they're gonna know.

• 14:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Another thing that I love is when I get to a city, like I said, like I'm a huge walker. Steven 12,000 steps a day. So I love to like walk around the city in the morning. When I get a coffee after that, we'll have a breakfast or get a pastry. And then we'll just walk around for a couple of hours and check things out. And we'll make notes on our phone when we see something that looks like it's going to be good. And especially if we see a place that is full of locals and that can be kind of intimidating. Especially when you're in a country where you don't speak the language fluently. It can be really intimidating to say, hey, I want to come and eat here. It's full of locals and I'm going to be the only one who doesn't speak the language or only outsider eating here.

• 14:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's when you know it's good or at least it's going to give you a taste of what people in that city really like. And what the food is like authentically like. So it may be uncomfortable at first, you know? I'll, I'll Google translate like, hey, can, you know, can we get a table for two? And I've had like a really warm reception at every place I go, especially when you make that effort of learning how to say hello. Do you have room for two people?

• 15:22Joe Flamm?

  Right. I always have like a couple of phrases I write down in my book. But I also like when I go places like now it's. Like I will find a gym when I travel, but I like, you know, my first day there, I'll usually run. And I'll try to just like, I'll go out and do, you know, like two, three miles and just explore like really early. And just kind of cruise around and like see, you know, cause that's like such a great, and I'll be like, oh, look at this place. You know what I mean? It wasn't on my list or I'll be like, oh, this place like, you know, and then you look it up and you're like, oh, yeah, I did read about this place. So it's like my pre walk around. And then it's like, go to my coffee shop, pick up my coffees and maybe I found another coffee shop for the next day. Like when I was in Mexico City last year, it's like running through Mexico City and there's, you know, Mexico's city has like

• 16:06Joe Flamm?

  a million of these tiny coffee places.

• 16:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Joe Flamm?

  And the coffee there is so good. It's such an underrated thing of Mexico City.

• 16:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Joe Flamm?

  Maybe it was just like something that I was just wildly unaware of that like they were like went so hard at the coffee culture. But it was like.

• 16:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  They go hard on everything. I love Mexico City.

• 16:24Joe Flamm?

  I, I agree. I think it's like, that is like the number one city I've been to where I'm like, you know, we were at the played home. We were like, when could we go back? You know, like you'd run by one and I'm like, oh, I gotta come back to this place.

• 16:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 16:37Joe Flamm?

  Cause it just looks cool. It looks older. It looks new. It looks funky. You know what I mean? I see this little shop, like what's going on? Like, you know what I mean? And I'm like all sweaty, like walking into a grocery store, just to like walk around with the other people who are in there at six thirty of the morning. Okay.

• 16:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  I swear by that.

• 16:53Joe Flamm?

  Like, what is this?

• 16:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  When I go to a city, I'm a hundred percent walking through grocery stores. People think I'm so weird. I'm like, oh, that's a grocery store.

• 17:01Joe Flamm?

  With, with the world cup of all these Europeans coming here, like loading up suitcases of like, you know, like ranch and like all this like American shit to bring back. And people are like, can you believe it? I'm like, that is me everywhere. That is me in Japan. That is me in Italy, unless you are TSA watching this, then I would never bring anything back in. But you know, and everywhere I go, it's like, yeah, it's like packages on packages of like food and beverage. And like any weird thing I can find at a grocery store to like, you know, eat like with my crew when we get back.

• 17:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you know what I think is another underrated? Thing and it is kind of like it's kind of cliche. I know, you know, people have weird feelings about it, but you know, those, those websites, there's one that's called like get your guide that I use when I'm going to different cities, like in Mexico City, I wanted to tour some of the food markets. But I speak enough Spanish, but I want to know the places in these markets that I have to go. What is the best taqueria? What is the best place for pozole? What is the best place for orchata? What is like, I want to know that. And so there was randomly a guy who's like 19

• 18:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  years old in college, whose father has a taqueria in this market. And it's more of like a market for locals in Mexico City. It's not like one of the big touristy ones. And then there's a market across the street connected. That's more of like a, it's got like some voodoo kind of stalls going on and things. But he said, like, I will give you a tour of this market. We had no less than like 20 dishes. And he was like, you don't have to eat everything, you know, eat half of it, eat a third of it. We got some boxes, take them back to your hotel. Don't feel pressured to eat everything because you will be stuffed. We stopped and got a bottle of tequila. We sip tequila while we're drinking and eating this food. It was like the best experience because we're getting an insider view of the market.

• 18:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was a food tour. Yeah. And it's so cliche. Like, you know, people are like-

• 19:00Joe Flamm?

  It's like, I feel like when you hear those even said like, because I like see those in Chicago and shop stuff and it's, you know, 35 people and they're like, this is timeout market. You know what I mean? And you're just like, what are you guys doing? Like-

• 19:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  And this was a small tour. It was just me and Steven with the guide. Those are the kind of ones that I look for where it's a smaller, like more one-on-one kind of thing, where you're getting that like deep knowledge that somebody has of the place.

• 19:25Joe Flamm?

  I will say I did that when I was in Rome in 2017. I went and I did, I booked like one of Katie Parla's private food tours.

• 19:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, nice.

• 19:36Joe Flamm?

  It's like, if you don't know anyone and you've never been there and you don't speak the language, it's like, it's, you know, 11 out of 10 would recommend because it was like- Took me in all these shops, took me to all these markets. And now it's like, when I go, I feel like, I'm like, oh, I know the basis. I know, like, I read her stuff constantly to see what's evolving in the Rome scene. But it was like, it was so much and like, just explained so much about the history and like, why things are the way they are. And like, I love that. And I think, you know, with like us as chefs, like, we get lucky a lot of times, like, we go to cities like, you know, where we have a chef friend waiting for us who will do that, right? You know what I mean? The first time I went to St. Louis, Kevin Nash and, you know, James Beard Award winner has been in St. Louis forever.

• 20:19Joe Flamm?

  And like, the most Midwest thing ever is like, oh, I'll pick you up from the airport. Like, picked me up from the airport. I wasn't even cooking with him. I was cooking at a different thing. Picks me up from the airport. He's like, we're gonna go to Pappy's and get ribs. And like, we walked to Pappy's and it's like, there's a massive line and he walks in the back door because he's Kevin Nash and like, we walk in, we, you know, they're like, oh, we're out of ribs. And that, they're like, oh, Kevin, we saved you a rack.

• 20:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right for him, of course.

• 20:43Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? We sit down, he's talking to me about the history of this place in St. Louis. We go to his restaurant, we go see Gerard crap. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I got like a personal St. Louis food tour from one of the greatest chefs in St. Louis. And it's like, so we're spoiled rotten in that we get people who do that for us. You know, I could get off the plane in New York and you'll meet me and we'll go around to 20 places.

• 21:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, cuz I'm never picking you up from the airport, but I'll meet you somewhere.

• 21:08Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not picking you up in Chicago either. I'll send you the number of someone who will.

• 21:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's the fun thing, like, those guides, like, you're right, we are chefs and we frequently know somebody in another city who will give us the scoop on where to go. But if you're not a chef, or if you don't know a chef in that city, I think those kind of food tours, especially look for the smaller ones.

• 21:33Joe Flamm?

  Smaller ones.

• 21:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  That take you on an, like an off the beaten path kind of thing.

• 21:37Joe Flamm?

  Extra money, book the private one, and it is like bang for your buck.

• 21:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or do like a cooking class.

• 21:45Joe Flamm?

  I've never.

• 21:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Cook with a local. I haven't either, but I kinda want to. I kinda want to because I know chefs in the US that do that. Like on Airbnb now, they've started looking for chefs to give cooking classes on their platform. And I know some really good chefs who do it here. So why wouldn't I be able to find a good chef, you know, doing it somewhere else? And even if not, like if it's somebody's mom, that's even better. Like, I'd rather learn the local food from somebody's mother.

• 22:12Joe Flamm?

  Right. And it's like, I don't know, like, why in my, in my head, I'm like, I don't want to do, like, a cooking class where, like, it might have somebody's like, you want to come stage? I'm like, yeah, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm, like, I'm traveling to my, my presence of myself when I turned 40 was I've always wanted to go to Alaska. I have a friend who lives in Juneau, my friend, uh, Bo Schuler, he's a, uh, James Beard nominated chef. He's got a great place up there. He's like, dude, come up for salmon season. We'll go salmon fishing. And I'm like, yeah, you know, like bucket list. So I booked it. But I told him, I was like, yo, I was like, the one day I'm up there, I'm like, I want to spend a day in your kitchen. And I was like, I don't care if we do a dinner. I don't care if we, you know, if it's a thing. I go, I don't care if it's just us being like old dudes on the line, just slinging pans together. I was like,

• 22:57Joe Flamm?

  but there's something inside me where I just want to say, like, yeah, I like cook tonight in Juneau, Alaska on the line. Like, that's it. Like, I just want to. And I can't explain that why I need to scratch that itch. But it's like, that to me is like, yes, I will pay all this money to fly to Juneau, Alaska to cook a line cook shift there for a night. You know what I mean? But it's like, for some reason, it's like, sometimes like the cooking class thing where I'm like, that's not as appealing to me.

• 23:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, the cooking classes are funny because chefs go in and it's like, please be careful, but I need you to chop an onion. And we're like, done. What's next? You know, so those, the cooking classes, yes, it can be awkward, but if you just fall back and just enjoy the experience, in my mind, it would be so beautiful. And I really want to do it.

• 23:43Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, maybe we'll take one together.

• 23:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  But I just like, and I would totally stage, like, give me somebody's restaurant to work in for a night, too. Um, but I really, I feel like if doing a cooking class would be awesome because, like, you're learning from Somebody who lives there who probably doesn't give a fuck. They might not even be that good at cooking. But like, it would just be a fun experience, like kicking it at somebody's house is the way I see it. Like, I did a fishing tour in Mexico one time. And, you know, we're fishing. We caught like, you know,

• 24:13Joe Flamm?

  Fish.

• 24:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yellowfin, like small bonito. Yes, we caught fish. And the guy was like filleting all the fish. And I was like, uh, can, can I do one of those? He was like, I don't know if you know how. I was like, let me just give it a try.

• 24:26Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Steven has a video. The guy was like, what the fuck?

• 24:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was like, one, two, done, fillet off. Like, it was so funny because he didn't expect that. Because he never has people on the tour who know how to fillet fish, I guess.

• 24:41Joe Flamm?

  Right. So it was so unexpected. People on the tour who were exec sous at Liberta Dead.

• 24:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so he was kind of like, well, shit, you want to do these other 20? I was like, absolutely. You start fishing, I'll start filleting.

• 24:52Joe Flamm?

  That's awesome. Like,

• 24:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was so much fun.

• 24:55Joe Flamm?

  You know, like, that's the coolest stuff, right? Those, those experiences. But that's why I think like the small tours are really good. I think you're, I think you're opening me up to a cooking class. Maybe I'll take a cooking class this year. That would be really fun.

• 25:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  In Italy, I want to do one of those classes to learn, um, that rare pasta, the filen do.

• 25:12Joe Flamm?

  Oh, the like Sardinian one where you stretch it? It's like a hand pulled Chinese noodle, but you dry it over a sheet tray thing. Yeah.

• 25:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. I want to do a class on that. Like, those are the kind of classes that I really want. But I'm, I'm saying, Joe, we'll meet up, me, you, Hill, Steven, we'll all meet up in some city. You know, do some cooking classes and have a ball.

• 25:40Joe Flamm?

  I think like a dream vacation for me would be like traveling with some chefs, either my chefs or chef friends. Being in a city. Eating for three or four days and then the last day going to the markets, buying a bunch of food and like cooking a big meal. Like I got to cook like the one time I was in Italy. It was actually right before we went to Top Chef. I went out to Dario Cuccini's place, the famous butcher of Pansance. And so I had lunch there by myself and I was coming back and I was staying with a friend of mine's family. So I bought a pork roast and I got to like cook it in their backyard. Like I was like in the suburbs of Florence. Like just cooking in a backyard, you know, and like the dogs running around, his little sisters are running around.

• 26:24Joe Flamm?

  The grandpa's in the backyard, you know, like talking to the dog in Italian about God knows what. And it was like so special and I'm like, I'd love to do that again. Like I'd love to figure out how to do that again. Like get a group of chefs to be like, we're going to go to Rome for four days. We're going to like eat around the city in our last day there. Like we're each going to make one dish. We're each going to go buy, buy one bottle of wine. We're each gonna, you know what I mean? Like just sit with each other and like talk about everything we ate and like have this beautiful experience of like, and like just for ourselves, not for like, you know what I mean? Not for the public, not for anyone, but just like, you know, like that's, that's like a dream trip of mine too. I think of just like, you know, getting to cook in a place where you are. It's like something I, I don't get to do enough and I'd like to do more.

• 27:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, especially like I'm here for work and so I'm cooking at work. I'm visiting the markets in the morning. But it's different when you're cooking like at home. And so like, I'm really lucky, you know, I'm here for two months. Steven's able to come for like a month and a half. And so he's going to the markets like I'm rushing in the morning. I have my list. I'm seeing what I get inspiration from, but then I have to go to work. Steven's able to like take his time. He's like, oh, I got these gorgeous pork chops and like these local mushrooms. And I got this and I got this. And so he's like having that experience of cooking with the local produce in France. And then I just get to eat it when I come home from work. So I'm, I'm very happy about this.

• 27:50Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Cause I mean, even when I can't cook in cities, I still like buy like random things to eat. Like, you know, maybe like, okay, can we like, you know? Like hand food or whatever. I remember like when I went to Shanghai years ago, just, you know, when I got there, my cousin gave me like a burner cell phone that just had his address on it on Chinese. And it just was like a text message on it that basically in Chinese said, like, take me back to this address.

• 28:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is genius.

• 28:12Joe Flamm?

  So I would go out in the morning and I would go to all the markets and I would wander around and I buy stuff and then I would just get in a taxi and I would just show the guy my phone. And he would be like, how about Shishini? Um, and then he'd take me back. It was awesome. You know what I mean? Cause I'd be like, I'm not going to get lost. And then I completely get lost.

• 28:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Of course, of course.

• 28:30Joe Flamm?

  You know, and so like, that was like such a cool way to explore that I buy dumplings or random fruit or whatever, just bring it back and be like, oh, hey, look, I got treats.

• 28:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, I love it. I mean, it's summertime. Take that trip. Go to that city. Go to as many restaurants as you can. Cook food if you can, you know, I.

• 28:50Joe Flamm?

  But even like domestically, you know what I mean? Go to that little city. Go to those little spots, like wander around. You know what I mean? I was in Springdale, Arkansas two months ago and it was like just wandering around Springdale, going for a run through Springdale. I was like, what a wild little place. Like I had breakfast by myself at this little corner spot that was hopping and it was delicious. We have lunch at a place that had a full nacho menu. It was awesome. And you know, we had pizzas at the late night bar in town and, you know, went to Shirley's afterwards and like, it was, it was awesome. It was awesome. And it's a small little town with like a main street.

• 29:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's the thing. It, it doesn't have to be international. Like some of my favorite cities are like those small cities. Like when I lived in Florida, some of the small cities between Tallahassee and Orlando, like Turpin Springs and these cool little places where you go swimming.

• 29:37Joe Flamm?

  Can't get enough of Turpin Springs.

• 29:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love it. You know, it's like the, the Greek fishing community and they, they grill fish and they've got like, you know, the Greek wine and just fresh vegetables. And it's such an unexpected experience to have in Florida.

• 29:51Joe Flamm?

  There's all these like weird little spot, like we go to Michigan city every summer. Michigan city, Indiana. It is one hour.

• 29:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Michigan city, Indiana. You have to clarify that.

• 29:59Joe Flamm?

  Yes. It is one hour from my door. You know what I mean? And I love it. The kids love it. It's their favorite trip. We went to the same house for basically the same week. And it's like, we go up, we cook, we eat out. And it's like, it's awesome. It's not like crazy. It's just like, it's the best, you know, it's a beach, it's hang. And it's like, there's some like, there's like a couple of places up there. They're like weird little spots. I love like, there's these guys, it's called South Shore Oven Works, I think. And they just have a truck with a pizza oven. And they're just cranking Neapolitan pizzas out of a parking lot for a liquor store.

• 30:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  I want to.

• 30:33Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, and I go, I get like nine, you know what I mean? And it's like, you sit there and you wait cause they make them and it's like, you can't order ahead. You can't do anything. You just have to check their Instagram and see if they're cooking pizzas that day. And it's not like they're like social media mavens where it's like, you know, like, oh, like, you know, they're just like, we're making pizza today. You know what I mean? Like, come by until we don't have pizza. Here's like, okay, I'm gonna go show up, see if they have pizza. And it's like, awesome. It's really good Neapolitan pizza. I go there every year. I love it. They're out in the sun, they're getting cooked, they don't care. They're just slanging pies, people sit around and just wait for them. And then there's like, there's a weird little, and I don't know why or how this got there.

• 31:15Joe Flamm?

  But there's a Jamaican restaurant next to the railroad tracks called Cool Runnings. And if you go there, it is mostly Jamaican people. Again, I don't know where they are coming from. I don't know why they are there. I don't know how they got there, where they're in Michigan City, Indiana. But like, it's this little spot.

• 31:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I want the backstory on that.

• 31:35Joe Flamm?

  Like, I wanna know so bad, but it's like, I'm like, no bullshit AJ, I've been to this place 25 times.

• 31:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God, I bet the food is banging.

• 31:44Joe Flamm?

  Bang it, bang it. Like, and it's just like no frills, little like, you're like, is this place open? And then you go in and it's like a vibe and you're just like, it's like a shack, but it's fucking awesome.

• 31:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 31:58Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, that's not international, that's railroad tracks, you know? 61 minutes from my house right now.

• 32:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. See, you can find amazing food in so many cities close to you. You don't even have to like fly somewhere. You can just drive a couple hours away to another city and have an amazing experience.

• 32:18Joe Flamm?

  And just go in and try it. Like, you know what I mean? It's a pretty low bar of entry. And you know what? Like, if you don't like it, don't be a dick and go online and shit on it. Just don't go back. You know what I mean?

• 32:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:27Joe Flamm?

  Or give it another try. It's like, you know, it's like, I think we get, especially in travel, everybody goes to a city and they're like, what's the best? What's the best?

• 32:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 32:35Joe Flamm?

  Right? You know, people come to Chicago all the time and they're like, what's the best burger? What's the best pizza? What's the best? And it's like, I'm always like, yo, this is what I like. This is why I like, you know what I mean? They're like, oh, what's the best beef? I'm like, I don't know. I like going to Al's on Taylor Street because if you go to Al's on Taylor Street in summertime, I think the beef is my favorite beef. I like it, you know, hot dip. And then you walk across the street to Mario's and you get an Italian ice. And I think that's a pretty quintessential Chicago summertime evening. So as far as like, it's experiential. Am I saying both of those things are the best? I don't know, but like it's an awesome combo and it makes me super happy when I do it.

• 33:15Joe Flamm?

  So it's the best for me, but it's like people get, you know, so caught up in the best and it's like, like you gotta sometimes just like enjoy it for what it is. It's not the best, but this is the thing right there and it's cool that it's right there. It just enjoy it, you know? And that's, I think, like the biggest thing with travel is like, everything's not going to be the best, but that's okay. It's about the experience.

• 33:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Joe, speaking of travel, I do remember a story you told me a while ago about a trip you took since you do like to cook in different cities. So why don't we, why don't we take it down to walk in confessions? And I think you should be up this week and I want to hear something from one of your experiences cooking in another city.

• 34:09Joe Flamm?

  I think I got one for you.

• 34:12Joe Flamm?

  So I have been fortunate to cook a lot of places and there's, there's no other way to describe it than, you know, getting the opportunity to cook in other places is really, really special. But, um, right before you and I did Top Chef, I had the opportunity, I went to Italy and I was cooking in different kitchens in Italy, which was incredible. And so, you know, I'm, I'm in all these different kitchens and I don't really speak Italian, I didn't really speak English. So they just kind of give you somebody. There was somebody in each kitchen who, you know, had spent either, you know, the most time in England or wherever. So they spoke enough English and they'd be like, okay, you get the stage today. And they'd look at me, fuck, like, you know, but they, you know, they were a good sport and it was.

• 34:54Joe Flamm?

  Kind of fun and I go to these different places. It was funny because whoever was my like, you know, who's like in charge of basically babysitting me for the day. Everyone would just come up to them and ask some questions uh for them to ask me. You know what I mean? Whether about the states or like really funny. It was really, it was really, really, really funny things. And you know, I was staging in this one kitchen and you know, these guys were really like serious. Like we were in Florence. It's this restaurant. It's a great restaurant. It's called Tredice Gobi, which is the 13 hunchbacks. So I came there for lunch service. We did lunch service. I thought it went pretty well. There's a break in between dinner and it was really funny, you know, because in American culture, like especially in restaurants, right? Like if you're on time, you're late.

• 35:37Joe Flamm?

  So they tell me the case, they say, you know, come back six o'clock. I said, okay, come back six o'clock. So you know, of course I'm there at 5:40.

• 35:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 35:46Joe Flamm?

  Sitting waiting.

• 35:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like a good responsible person.

• 35:49Joe Flamm?

  You know, 5:45, nobody's there. It's almost six. I'm like, did I mess something up? Like I must be wrong. So finally like six, like 40, like one of the guys shows up.

• 36:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Joe Flamm?

  He's like, what are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, you told me to come back at six. He's like, yeah, it's not even seven yet. I'm like, so he just meant before seven. And so they were like, okay, this, you know, I mean, probably like, I felt like I lost all my goodwill from the morning. But so we, we go into the night service. And the funniest translation thing that happens is at one point, like all these guys, you know, they're asking all these weird questions. And then finally like one guy comes over. He's like, hey, can I, can I ask you something? And I was like, yeah. He goes, do you watch wrestling?

• 36:34Joe Flamm?

  And I go,

• 36:36Joe Flamm?

  like, like, like Olympic? Or are you talking about like, like,

• 36:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  WWE?

• 36:41Joe Flamm?

  Cena wrestling?

• 36:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 36:42Joe Flamm?

  He goes, yes, John Cena. And then when he says John Cena, this is like a group of like 50 year old, like Albanian and like Indian immigrants in this kitchen. Everybody stops. And like looks over at me.

• 36:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 36:58Joe Flamm?

  And I'm like, why? And he goes, is it real?

• 37:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, did you break his heart?

• 37:06Joe Flamm?

  And I was like, everyone is staring at me in this kitchen. And I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, I, I feel like I'm like reading in a classroom and all these kids just asked me if the Easter Bunny is real. Like, you know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, like, I'm like, no, it's like a TV show. Like, they're really jumping around, like, head of explain it to him. And then he explains it to all the guys and these dudes.

• 37:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 37:29Joe Flamm?

  And I was like, I'm really like going down on the stage. You know what I mean? I just ruined everybody's night. And he's like, oh, all these guys didn't know. He's like, I knew, but they didn't know. I was like, no, I knew you knew, but like, they didn't know. So I already just broke all these guys' hearts. So I'm trying to get in there and really like my main focus is they have a pasta station there. And there's one dude working pasta and he is like, I mean, everything on the station is like,

• 37:52Joe Flamm?

  like lined up, like I keep trying to get over there and it keeps kind of like, you know, I like touch something and he like fixes it right away. I touch something like, you know, moves it right back. And I'm like, this guy is like real, real specific. And like, everybody else is all close to each other and he's over there odd pasta islanded like nobody is going over there. So I'm like, I gotta, I'm like, I have to work this pasta station. Like, I have to get in there with this guy. So I'm kind of like wiggling my way in. Finally, finally I get over there and I'm just like doing, I'm trying to do everything he wants so that like he'll let me in. And they have this one famous dish there. It's a weird little dish, but it's like a rigatoni with tomato sauce. And at the end of it, you throw in fresh mozzarella and then you toss it really fast.

• 38:35Joe Flamm?

  And the mozzarella kind of stretches around the pasta and then they plate it in a clear Pyrex bowl for no fucking reason whatsoever. But it's a part of it. I don't know why it looks insane. It doesn't look good, but it's crazy delicious. It's crazy delicious. It's so good. I love it. So I'm like, all right, you know, so finally I'm like sliding in, he's let me do a pickup too. And then it's like, there's a couple reggaetonies picked up and he's like, kind of gives me like the go hat. Like you can get in there. So I'm like working the pans. I'm back there. I'm just like, oh man. I'm like, this is it. It's a Friday night. We're in Florence. I'm working a pasta station. I got two pans going up, working up, you know, the sauce is coming together nice. I'm working two pans at once. I'm like, oh yeah, these guys are so impressed.

• 39:18Joe Flamm?

  So then he like goes and grabs a cheese. I like throw the cheese. I start working it and he's like, and he's like, yeah. You know, like, like, like giving me the like good signs. So I'm like flipping it and he's like, okay, pasta. And I'm like, all right, pasta. Yeah, that sounds like faster. I need to go faster. So I just start like cranking it and he's like pasta. And I'm like, I'm like, oh yeah, we're going pasta. So now I'm like, I'm like, I'm dripping sweat. I'm ripping two pans as hard as I can. He's like pasta, pasta, like yelling. I'm like, woo, like we're vibing, baby. Let's go like pasta. And then finally, like one of the servers who walked into the kitchen comes up to me. He goes, he say a pasta, it means a stop. And I was like, oh.

• 39:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Shut up.

• 40:02Joe Flamm?

  Pasta.

• 40:04Joe Flamm?

  And like, everybody's looking at me and I'm like, I just played him out and I'm just like, pasta, pasta. Scusa. And it was like, I was, I was so high. I rode so high.

• 40:18Joe Flamm?

  And it was just like instantly so.

• 40:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's like how they felt when you told them that WWE wasn't real.

• 40:23Joe Flamm?

  Right, right. I felt like it was payback. You know what I mean? But it was just like, I was like, that moment, you know, you feel you're like, oh, I am killing this so hard. Like they are just going to be talking of the legend of this, you know, American who came in here and rocked the pasta station on a Friday night. And I'm like, they're going to be talking about this idiot who didn't know what pasta meant.

• 40:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Gosh, oh, from the highest highs to the lowest lows.

• 40:50Joe Flamm?

  Oh, it was, it was tough. It was tough. Uh, but then, you know.

• 40:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's hard. That's a hard one to accept. How did you spend the rest of the night after that?

• 41:01Joe Flamm?

  Uh, after that, uh, that was like getting close to the end of the night. And then, uh, you know, it was one of those places, this is a wild thing. In Italy, it was like, you know, at this point, it's like you couldn't smoke in restaurants, right? But apparently in Florence, that didn't apply to kitchens.

• 41:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 41:18Joe Flamm?

  So like servers would come back there, they would hand in a ticket.

• 41:23Joe Flamm?

  So you're from America? And I'm like, yeah, what, what, what, what is happening? Like you're just smoking a cigarette at the kitchen right now? So it was like, you know, then me and pasta guy, pasta guy was like, asked me for a cigarette. I was like, yeah, so me and him stood in the pasta station.

• 41:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, that's good. At least he wasn't so mad at you that he didn't speak to you for the rest of the night.

• 41:45Joe Flamm?

  No, no, no, you know, he just at least wanted one of my cigarettes. And, you know, we stood there and smoked a cigarette under the hood and, you know, it was a great night.

• 41:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is awesome, Joe.

• 41:54Joe Flamm?

  My friend's parents picked me up from work like I was in high school. We went to an Irish pub and had a great night.

• 42:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is the most Joe walking confession that I could think of.

• 42:06Joe Flamm?

  It's just like, you know, those moments where you think, you know, you're really cool. Then you remembered, you're like, I'm not, I'm not cool. I'm a big dork and like, I just, you know, can't get out of my own way. Just absolutely.

• 42:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, basta, basta.

• 42:23Joe Flamm?

  Absolutely playing myself.

• 42:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's awesome, Joe. Well, at least you had a good time and you got to work a service in Florence. You know, you'll do that in Alaska soon and hopefully, you know, y'all are all speaking the same language.

• 42:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 42:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is it for this episode of the chef's cut. Head to the comments to share your favorite underrated food cities and drop a comment on YouTube or go to the chef's cup pod on Instagram to join the conversation. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been the chef's cut. Life beyond the past.