Pod Insights The Case Of Kumanjayi Little Baby: Heartbreak at Alice Springs courthouse About this episode Five days after Kumanjayi Little Baby's body was found, her accused murderer has been called to court in Alice Springs.
Reporter Olivana Lathouris attended the hearing and told Stocky about the scenes in court and across town, where the Walpiri community has begun its sorry business.
If you have any questions you'd like Oli and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected] .
The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Why do humans hold on to stuff? Odiments we don't use and yet can't quite throw out. It's not just you and me. Australia's oldest library is crammed with stuff that isn't books. Terrible paintings, old menus, human hair. Is this history or hoarding? I'm Annabelle Crabb. Come and have a rummage through the story of us told by our stuff. Search for the History or Hoarding podcast on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
0:45 Speaker 01 All last week, we hoped a five-year-old girl who went missing from a town camp in Alice Springs would be found safe. She wasn't. And now the man in charge of their murder has been called before the court. I'm Stephen Stockwell. This is The Case Of.
0:59 Speaker 02 The family of Alice Springs five-year-old Kumanjayi Little Baby calls for calm. Her body was found near the old timers' town camp. I am angry, my young little cousin.
1:11 Speaker 03 Our hearts, like most Australians, are really with the families of Alice Springs right now. It is going to be so hard to live the rest of our lives without you.
1:23 Speaker 01 Five days after the body of Kumanjayi Little Baby was found, after days of searching, the man accused of murdering her, Jefferson Lewis, has been called before the Alice Springs Court. It is an awful story, but in the room for the hearing this morning was ABC Court reporter Ollie Bannister. Thank you for joining us, Ollie.
1:42 Speaker 04 Thanks for having me, Stocky.
1:43 Speaker 01 Would much prefer it was under different circumstances, but you know, very pleased that we can get your kind of insight and experience into what's unfolded in Alice Springs today. What was the hearing that's happened?
1:55 Speaker 04 Yeah, Stocky, this is obviously a case which has captured so many people across Australia. Uh, there are many people right across the country who will have been following what has unfolded over the last couple of days and certainly for the community here in Alice Springs, it has been an incredibly heavy and heartbreaking chapter for this little outback town. I should mention, we're using the name Kumanjayi Little Baby at the request of her family. Kumanjayi is a substitute for the name of a person who has died once the family begins sorry business. Uh, this is obviously a deep time of grieving for that little girl's family.
2:39 Speaker 04 And in the midst of all of that, what happened today was sort of the first step in what will no doubt be quite a lengthy uh and difficult justice process. We were expecting Jefferson Lewis to appear, uh, albeit via a uh video link, presumably from detention, although we weren't really quite sure how that was all going to play out. Um, but ultimately, he actually didn't appear. His lawyer asked for him to be excused. Uh, and so it was honestly a very brief, uh, a very brief proceeding this morning. Uh, the prosecution basically requested quite a lengthy adjournment. They said that it's obviously been quite a comprehensive police investigation over the last few
3:23 Speaker 04 uh days leading up to this court appearance, and they said there was going to be a lot of evidence that would need to be collated, uh, and so it was essentially adjourned uh for quite a number of weeks.
3:32 Speaker 01 Yep. Um, what has Jefferson Lewis been charged with? Does this run through in the court?
3:37 Speaker 04 So Jefferson Lewis uh has been charged with the murder of Kumanjayi Little Baby. He is also facing another two charges, uh, but we can't talk about those and they can't be disclosed and that's for legal reasons.
3:51 Speaker 01 Okay, yep. Um, Jefferson Lewis not in the room for this hearing, as you've mentioned. Um, what is the, what was it like at the Alice Springs courtroom as this hearing unfolded?
4:04 Speaker 04 Well, Stocky, there was a lot of media there, local and interstate. And we were all sort of waiting for this case to start this morning. And there was actually quite a lengthy closed court proceeding. Obviously, we don't know what happened during that closed court proceeding, but no public, no media were allowed in. We were told that that would happen, that we were told there would need to be some illegal discussions between the prosecution and defence. So essentially, it was just a lot of lawyers and a lot of media waiting outside the courtroom for quite some time. When we ultimately did go in, there didn't seem to be any family there at that stage. But it was, of course, quite a tense moment. I think, you know, there's been such an intense build up to today's court proceeding.
4:49 Speaker 04 So everyone was sort of waiting on tenterhooks to hear what was going to happen. The judge actually, quite unusually, began with an acknowledgement of Kumajai Little Baby's family and the calls for the justice process to take its course. So I think collectively in the room, everyone was, you know, front of mind was this family and this community that is grieving. And, you know, just how traumatic this event has been for, for the community of Alice Springs.
5:18 Speaker 01 How long did the hearing go for today?
5:20 Speaker 04 It was very brief, which is quite typical of a first court mention. It's not as though there's any discussion of what happened, alleged facts, anything like that. It's, it's quite procedural. It's really just a chance for the lawyers to get in front of the judge and to set a future date for the progression of the case.
5:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, the way you're talking about, you know, the amount of media in that room, the scale of the interest in this case has been really significant. And I think a, a sign of that is the fact that the NT Courts had planned to stream the hearing this morning. I came in and saw an email from yesterday saying that, you know, this would be streamed live so people could watch it. I logged on to find a Word doc open on someone sharing their screen apologising for the stream not working. And then someone with a microphone, they probably didn't realise was on, saying that there were 600 people trying to watch that. So, yeah, huge amount of interest in, in this case. What's it like in Alice Springs at the moment?
6:24 Speaker 04 Yes, Stokky, this was quite an, again, quite an unusual aspect of this case. I think the interest has been obviously so enormous and we haven't really seen that in the NT courts before. We have had certain court hearings broadcast to interstate media, so journalists can log on and listen to proceedings from interstate, but it's really the first time that we would have had it being livestreamed out to the public. So quite an incredible move from the NT courts. I think definitely here in Alice, there is this collective feeling of sorrow and sadness. There's certainly a very somber mood in the community. It's
7:07 Speaker 04 a very small, tight-knit place and an event like the death of this little five-year-old girl rocks a community like this. And, you know, obviously, you know, that grief has rippled right across Australia, but certainly in the community, it's almost as though every person you talk to, every person you look at, there's this collective knowledge between everyone that this community has just gone through something so traumatic. Hence why I think there was so much tension leading up to today because everyone was so curious as to how this was going to play out and what was going to happen. So obviously very unfortunate that that link wasn't working because there would have been so many people that wanted to hear how it was going to unfold.
7:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, what do we know about how Kumanjayi Little Baby's family is at the moment?
7:57 Speaker 04 Well, Stokky, I think, you know, it's hard to probably put into words how the family must be. They're obviously going through the process of sorry business. It's a deep time of sorrow and grief for the family of Kumanjayi Little Baby. When we were all sitting in the courtroom today, we were all sort of watching to see whether or not there would be any family members who would come to that first court proceeding today. And there weren't any family there to begin with, but then as we were leaving the courtroom and as the lawyers were leaving, we actually did see a number of family members. With white ochre on their foreheads coming into the court.
8:38 Speaker 04 Uh, and it seems as though uh that could be to do with the fact that because that audio visual link failed, uh, and there was this confusion about how people were going to be able to listen to this court proceeding, they tried to actually get to the court in time, but as I said, it was such a brief uh proceeding that it seems as though they weren't able to actually make it to uh actually listen to uh what unfolded in the court today. So of course I can only imagine if that's the case, that would have been extremely frustrating for those family members. There has obviously been so much grief, such an outpouring of sadness, but also a very strong sense of togetherness in the community.
9:20 Speaker 04 I was here yesterday when there was uh this annual parade, which Elder Spring celebrates every year, uh, and there was sort of questions about whether or not it would be appropriate for something like that to go ahead in the circumstances, but it did. And there were so many people there wearing pink, um, Kumanjayi little baby's favourite colour. There was a moment of silence at the start of the parade and it was a really good example of the way that this community has rallied around this family uh in the wake of this incident and also in the lead up to it. You know, we saw hundreds of volunteers out there searching for this little girl. So, um, of course, so much grief, so much sadness, but also quite a strong sense of community coming through.
10:01 Speaker 01 Oli, this feels like it's moved quite quickly, you know, it's turned around seemingly in a couple of days, you know, from Jeffson Lewis being arrested to the first time he's called to appear before the court, even though in this instance, he didn't actually appear before the court uh this time. I mean, has this moved quickly or is this actually just usually the speed that these kind of initial hearings are turned around and we don't cover them in this kind of way?
10:23 Speaker 04 Stocky, I'd say it's probably a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. I think there has certainly been a sense of urgency uh from the perspective of investigators and police in this case, the police response to the disappearance of this little girl and then uh all the events that happened afterward was enormous, the amount of resources. That were put into trying to find her and then trying to locate Jefferson Lewis was really significant. So I think that, you know, certainly, as I say, there was a bit of a sense of urgency to try to to to deal with this swiftly. In terms of sort of the timeline between an arrest, charges and a first court appearance, first court appearances do happen
11:07 Speaker 04 very quickly. Once charges are laid, it's very normal for a first court appearance to happen quite quickly. And that can be why these first court appearances aren't particularly lengthy, because it's really, as I say, more of a date setting exercise in terms of sort of just the court being able to work out where to from here with a case like this. There was obviously a little bit more of a delay in laying charges because he had to be transferred from Alice Springs to Darwin. But I would say, yeah, the police have responded very quickly to this. And yeah, so have the courts.
11:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, charged with murder and then two other charges that we can't talk about at the moment. Has Jefferson Lewis entered a plea at this hearing today?
11:50 Speaker 04 No, we didn't hear anything from Jefferson Lewis. Obviously, he wasn't in court. He didn't appear before the court. He was just represented by his lawyer from Legal Aid NT. No opportunity to enter a plea yet. We're still probably a fair way off from that. As I say, the next court appearance isn't until the end of July. And the prosecution did say that there's going to be a lot of evidence that needs to be part of this brief. And so all of that needs to be collated, served on to the defence before we get to that stage.
12:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. And, you know, without a plea, we don't know if this is going to be something that will be going to trial or not. That will depend on whether or not Jefferson Lewis pleads guilty or not guilty to these charges. Ollie, just for a bit of context, I guess, you know, you're talking about the length of time it takes for something to get from charges to, let's say, for example, a trial, if he does plead not guilty, again, we don't know if he will. What sort of timeline are we looking at there?
12:46 Speaker 04 Well, I mean, Stocky, how long is a piece of string, I suppose. I think it does really depend on the case, how much evidence there is. There can be all sorts of things that might mean a case is heard on a shorter timeline, or whether it's delayed. You know, I've covered matters that have taken well over a year, sometimes even two years, from a first mention to a trial. Of course, those are particularly complex matters. That may well not be the case with this matter. But yeah, it can be a really long and arduous process.
13:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, and as you mentioned as well, there's a lot that the prosecution says they need to do as well, you know, prepare that brief of evidence, get everything together. Ollie, as you've mentioned, back in court on July 30, what will that hearing look like? What is likely to happen there?
13:34 Speaker 04 Yeah, so Stocky, that next court mention will probably also be quite procedural. We also heard today that Jefferson Lewis will again not be appearing on that day. So he won't be required to appear before the court. He will just be represented by a lawyer. And it's at that stage that we could see the case go from the local court up to the Supreme Court. But again, I've sat in many, many matters before where it gets to that next court listing. And again, there needs to be further adjournments because there's still evidence outstanding, there's still things that need to be sorted out. So, Stocky, it's not a sure thing that we get to the 30th of July, and it's committed to the Supreme Court.
14:18 Speaker 01 Got it. Thank you, Ollie. We'll pop it in our diary and yeah, keep checking with you as we get closer to that. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode and kind of bringing us up to speed on the hearing today and what's unfolded in Alice Springs.
14:29 Speaker 04 Thanks, Stocky.
14:31 Speaker 01 I'll be back in your feed on Thursday. I'll have a special episode of the case of the two intruders for that one. We're not quite finished with it yet. Elizabeth Byrne and I will be sitting down with John McKeever, Irma Palasix's grandson, the man who has campaigned trying to find out who killed Irma for almost 30 years now. Be talking to him about how he feels with the verdict that has come in, also his reflections on the justice system and learning about who Irma and Gregor Palasix were. So grab ABC Listen and we'll have that in your feed on Thursday.
15:11 Speaker 01 The Case of is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Oliver Nathuris and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Arrandah and Morunduri people.
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