'ISIS Brides' | Who has been charged with what

ISIS-linked women returning to Australia from Syria will face domestic courts for charges including crimes against humanity: slavery and being member of a terrorist organisation. Melbourne reporter James Oaten returns to the pod and explains the legal process to now and the political and media storm these women faced upon their arrival. Extra reporting by James Oaten: Australian kids returned from Syria deserve compassion, says grandfather — ABC News https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-06-13/trauma-faced-by-children-returned-from-islamic-state-syria/106726476 If you have any questions you'd like James and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Patricia Carvallis, the host of Politics Now. And sometimes it can be hard to cut through all the noise from the Canberra bubble. But on the Politics Now podcast, bursting it wide open is our core business. I'm joined by the brightest minds at the ABC to break down the polly speak and have a chat about what's actually going on behind the scenes. It's called Politics Now and you can find it on ABC Listen.

• 0:28Speaker 01

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• 0:44Speaker 02

  For the first time in Australian history, two women have been charged with crimes against humanity, slavery, for allegedly owning a Yazidi slave in Syria. And we've been in court for it. I'm Stephen Stockwell, this is the case of the ISIS brides.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Dozens of Australian women either chose to or were forced to travel to Syria as the wives of ISIS fighters.

• 1:06Speaker 04

  These are the people Australia doesn't want, all held in the infamous Al-Hol camp in Syria.

• 1:11Speaker 05

  If you make your bed, you'll own it. These are people who went overseas supporting Islamic State.

• 1:18Speaker 06

  Six women landed in Sydney and Melbourne late yesterday with 13 children.

• 1:23Speaker 07

  Victorian Joint Counterterrorism Team have arrested a 53-year-old woman. Will be charged tonight or tomorrow.

• 1:29Speaker 06

  Keep moving, keep moving. Keep moving.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Why should we trust you?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  This is what a group of women arrived back to at the start of May. These are women you've probably heard referred to as the ISIS brides. It was the culmination of a political furore, a mob that followed them through the arrivals lounge, but has since kind of tailed off. A lot has been happening though. Four of them have already been arrested and are working their way through the courts. Two have already been denied bail. And to find out what is going on and who has been charged with what, James Oaten been following this story and was in court last week. Welcome back to the podcast, James.

• 2:09Speaker 06

  Good to be back here. Different topic from last time when I was joining you from Japan, but here I am in Melbourne, very different issue.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Still courts, which is what we're about. So, yeah, we've dragged you back. Very dramatic scenes in Melbourne and Sydney when these women and children returned to Australia. Before we get going too far, who are they?

• 2:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the name ISIS brides has been a catchall phrase for all these women and their children who have come back um over recent years, but under different circumstances. So in twenty nineteen, we had uh eight orphaned children brought back repatriation under the Prime Minister Scott Morrison. Then in twenty twenty two, under uh Anthony Albanese, we had four women and thirteen children. But since then, all other women and children that have come back have had to make their own way back, because there's been a very different approach from the government here, which is that we are not helping you come back to Australia.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Right. And uh these women, you know, we've got the term ISIS brides being thrown around. So these are women who were married to people fighting in ISIS, they were travelling over there with people who went to fight on with Islamic State. What's what's happening here?

• 3:15Speaker 06

  Again, it's a mixed bag um for who these women are and why they went there in the first place. Some, we've heard openly expressed support for this kind of form of violent extremism and support for Islamic State before they went there. Others went with their husbands. We've heard different reasons for that. Some have said they were tricked or coerced. And in fact, one of the older court cases, in fact, the only court case that has completely gone through the whole system, a woman called Mary Emrad, um the court actually did see that that her husband uh had a form of control over her as well. So it is a bit of a mixed bag. Of course, you'll hear people say that as

• 3:57Speaker 06

  an adult, you're responsible for your own actions. But um there is a mixed reasons for why people have gone over. And again, some openly supporting, but others we've heard since say they were coerced or tricked.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Hmm. And the children who we're talking about as well, these are the, you know, the sons and daughters of these women and, you know, in some cases orphans. Have I got that right?

• 4:19Speaker 06

  Yeah. And again, it's it's a very different number as well, because since twenty nineteen, since we've been using the phrase ISIS brides, it's sixteen women that have come back to Australia, um either repatriation or made their own way back, and forty seven children. Now, women, as we've heard in the recent court cases, you essentially had to be married under Islamic State rules. So for instance, these women, they may have been married to someone uh at first, and then when their husband dies.

• 4:48Speaker 06

  Then they're remarried and there can be more and more children along the way as well.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we're talking exclusively women and children here, no men coming back?

• 4:56Speaker 06

  Not in the recent years, not in the recent years. There's been different efforts previously, certainly across the world. There have been very different repatriation programmes involving those who have actually fought with Islamic State. But the focus since 2019 has been those who have allegedly supported Islamic State in one way or another by joining their husbands or other kind of declarations as well.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, okay. James, it's interesting to think about, you know, what this would have been like in Syria in these periods for, you know, these women and children. I mean, we know that 230 Australian men and women have travelled to Syria and Iraq to support or fight with extremist groups since 2012. I mean, there's a huge amount of concern and discussion before these women, this cohort, returned to Australia, this 11, these 11 women and 23 children. Out of that cohort, who's been charged?

• 5:51Speaker 06

  So we have two women in the Melbourne court system now, the Victorian court system, who have been charged with slavery-related offences. And that's a mother and daughter who have come back. They came back early May, when we had four women. And so of those four women, two were charged with slavery offences. You've got the mother, Korsa Ahmad, and she's applying for bail now, that process is underway. Her daughter, Zainab Ahmad, had her bail refused. But we're still in very early stages and that relates to a period between 2017 and 18 when this family allegedly owned this Yazidi teenager, Yazidi.

• 6:31Speaker 06

  They're an ethnic minority group who were heavily persecuted under Islamic State. The men were butchered. The women were sold into sexual servitude, into house duties, children as well, sold into slavery as well. So that's those two. Of those four women in early May, then there's another woman who arrived in Sydney. And she is facing terrorism-related charges and that's Janai Safar.

• 7:00Speaker 06

  And then there is another woman who's been charged, but she came back under different circumstances.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about how Rihanna Hulley came back a bit later in this episode. I mean, we were both in court last week when bail was refused for Zainab, and we'll talk more about that in our next episode. Some of the circumstances around the treatment of the woman who was taken as a slave. You know, the allegations, they were really serious and pretty confronting at times. Slavery seems like a pretty serious charge. How serious are we talking here?

• 7:29Speaker 06

  So we have had slavery charges in Australia before, which on a domestic type setting. These are crimes against humanity charges, and that's a different kettle of fish. And they are very serious. Twenty five years per offence. So for instance, for the daughter Zainab Ahmed, she's facing two charges, twenty five, up to twenty five years per offence. So very serious. And the more serious the offences, the higher the bar is to get bail. And that's what we saw play out in the court, that because we are dealing with crimes against humanity, because we are dealing with links to terrorism, the bar was extraordinarily high compared to someone who might be charged with

• 8:14Speaker 06

  an assault down at the pub.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, if we were playing exceptional circumstances, bingo, I think I heard that at least a dozen times. When we were getting the decision on bail in the magistrate's court in Victoria last week.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Crimes against humanity, have they ever been tried in Australia before?

• 8:30Speaker 06

  No, that's what makes this case so fascinating. This is the first time that these types of charges have gone through the Australian legal system. And that's one of the complicating factors here that we heard, for instance, from the defence team saying that this will be a very long, lengthy, complicated court case. And that was one of the reasons why they argued bail should be granted. Because they were estimating, you know, it could take three years, but realistically it could take a lot longer. And that's because the arguments they were making is that, first of all, you've got the alleged victim, or the complainant, as we say with court, that Yazidi teenager that I mentioned earlier, she is obviously not here. So you've got. Complainants who are overseas, you've got witnesses that are overseas, you've got experts

• 9:15Speaker 06

  that are overseas, then you've got social media posts, so that means going through Meta, who are also overseas. So it was a long list of people that are overseas. And so their arguments were to corral these people into the Australian legal system will be a long and complicated process. And when they are overseas, you don't have that kind of pulling power. If you're told to go to the court here, you go to the court, but it's a little bit more complicated when these people aren't Australian citizens, they're not based in Australia. So that's the argument they made. So that's what makes one of the reasons why this case is definitely worth monitoring closely, because it is a first.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, these are offences that happened overseas, though. Why is this something that we're trying in Australia?

• 9:58Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, with international law, just generally speaking, there is usually a preference to deal with it domestically. You don't want everything being sent up to the International Criminal Court. So it is completely acceptable to, to charge these crimes in a domestic setting.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 06

  But it comes down to that Australia has actually passed laws to recognise this. International law is one of those grey zones where, you know, everyone, a lot of states acknowledge these laws, but then it's about enforcement. Who's actually going to enforce the law? There's no international police per se. With crimes against humanity, these specific charges, these are laws that exist in Australia now.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 06

  So they are new laws that obviously recognise that these, any crimes that exist overseas under these circumstances can certainly be charged here in Australia as well.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Okay, great. Thank you. So I've been sitting in court thinking, it's having a long way away. Why is this happening here and unfolding here? So I appreciate the explanation. James, these women are all working their way through the various court processes, as we've talked about. Zenab's bail was knocked back last week. Corsa's hearing is happening right now. Ryan's hearing has started, but that's sort of underway. There's a delay involved in that. And Janice Safar in Sydney had her bail refused last month. I mean, this was a huge political story when these women were returning to Australia. The Australian Government insisted that it wouldn't help. And Anthony Albanese famously said, you know, these people have made their bed, so they've got a line. So these women organised their own flights, they paid their own way back to Australia. Is that right?

• 11:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you've heard from the Australian government time and time again, stress the point that no support was given, um which is different to what had happened previously as we we discussed. So all these arrivals, both from last year, we had two that uh I'll say snuck into the country, but that's only from a media perspective because we were unaware, the media was unaware, but certainly the Australian authorities were well and truly aware because they issued passports and so on. Um but there were two that arrived last year with their children, uh and then obviously then the the um attention on the latest women. And really, the only thing that shifted there is because the media became more aware. Right. We knew where these women were, we knew they wanted to get out. There had been a high-profile

• 12:17Speaker 06

  campaign to put pressure on the government, saying you have a responsibility. It's not necessarily, you know, no one I've ever spoken to has said, you know, let bygones be bygones, you know, if a charge, if if a crime has been committed, don't worry about it. No one's making that point. Hmm. Everyone I've ever spoken to on either side of the viewpoint about whether Australia has a responsibility says if an offence has been committed, absolutely, you know, you charge someone, you test those charges in the legal system. Hmm. But there is an argument that Australia has a responsibility to bring these people back to uh primarily as well for the children's sake. Hmm.

• 13:00Speaker 06

  Because irrespective of what people may think about the women who went there and how much control um and responsibility they have over the situation. Hmm. No one's making the argument that the children had a say in the matter. Many were actually born over there as well, in these camps as well. So that was a key argument that we are dealing overwhelmingly with children of all the repatriations and the more recent arrivals. When these children have arrived back in Australia, they've been around primary school age. So we are dealing with young children as well. And so that's been a key argument. And like I said, the only reason why it played out recent in recent months, a little bit more dramatically,

• 13:43Speaker 06

  to put it mildly, than the two arrivals from last year is because the media were aware. So everyone was waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 06

  And then obviously reporting when there were movements from the camps.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  People asking Anthony Albanese, what do you think? Are you going to help them? All that sort of stuff. And so that's what's fed into this kind of fervour around it.

• 13:58Speaker 06

  And also, um, it's been put to me as well, since the Bondi terrorism attack as well, there is heightened community concern as well, and that can't be dismissed either.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the change in, you know, I guess, attitude or, you know, awareness, just that basically people are being asked about it. The media is aware of it, they're keeping across it. And, you know, we, I talked at the start of this episode about the returns on May seven, the kind of chaos at the airport. There was another cohort that arrived back in the country towards the end of May, a few weeks later. Very different situation. I actually think I completely missed this story. It wasn't until I started kind of doing the background for this that I realised there was a second lot of women that came back. I mean, does that mean the Australian government was again involved in trying to sneak these people back in? Or what was going on there?

• 14:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, regarding the sneaking back in, um, you know, in previous times, it obviously wasn't announced. And the Australian government has never actually announced these flights and these details and so on and so forth. Um, when it's been done under previous repatriations, it's been a smoother process. And then, as we mentioned, two people came back last year, two adults came back last year and also flew under the radar. Um, they were in a different camp, I should point out, um, to the recent arrivals. You know, the Australian government's been at pains to say they've offered no assistance. Now, there always has to be some bureaucratic assistance, purely, again, we're dealing with passports.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:22Speaker 06

  Um, there is a temporary exclusion order powers that we've seen used to block one of the women from getting back to Australia.

• 15:31Speaker 06

  We know from the two arrivals that the first group that came back, everyone was much more aware, the media became much more aware, um, through sources, through monitoring the camps and so on. And when they arrived, there was a very, uh, large media contingent at the airports, particularly Melbourne. Now, only one woman of the four came out of the terminal, uh, doors or the terminal gates because the others had been charged. But then all the children were there too. And what we saw were rather ugly scenes where

• 16:09Speaker 06

  you had, uh, that woman, all these children coming out, the huge media swarm, and then other men who were supporting those women. Hmm. Clash might be a little strong, but I think it's okay to use that word. Certainly, it was just a lot of push and shove as they tried to make their way through this very large media contingent. Hmm. And I think it is to say, fair to say that it was, wasn't exactly flattering scenes, they were ugly scenes. Um, what we saw the second time around though, something had shifted

• 16:52Speaker 06

  because perhaps most likely because, uh, of those scenes, where suddenly things were much quieter. Things were much quieter from the Syrian government to the A B C. Things were much quieter from the camp officials. Uh, so much so that the day before this bus left taking them, um, we were told there were no movements by these women. Um, things were much quieter from the Australian side as well, from the authorities on the Australian side. So it was much, there was a much more concerted effort to keep things quieter and smoother. And then of course, when they did arrive, they didn't come out those main doors that everyone comes out of, they went outside doors as well. So it did avoid those

• 17:37Speaker 06

  scenes again. Um. Now, who's responsible for ensuring a smoother exit and down out the side doors? We can speculate, but it does suggest that there's been certainly a change in um attitude. And again, it comes down primarily to the children again, because these are young children overwhelmingly that have come back to Australia. One of those children is now had turned eighteen, but overwhelmingly, when we're looking at all the cohorts, we are dealing with young children. So something did shift the second time in late May.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Um.

• 18:11Speaker 06

  And it, we didn't see those kind of clashes between the media um and those who had returned back and and the supporters as well.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And is the concern that these women are a terrorist threat?

• 18:24Speaker 06

  Well, you'd have to look at the um political space and the community uh discussions there. I mean, that's what we're hearing in the courts now. I mean, certainly that's been the argument. We've heard, for instance, you know, from the Prime Minister saying that you're an adult, you're responsible, you you make your bed and you have to sleep in it. While he has expressed some sympathy for the children, he's put the onus back on the adults, saying you made this mess, you got yourself in here.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Um.

• 18:48Speaker 06

  While we heard from the opposition, for instance, saying that the government should block every one of these recent arrivals uh to um to come back. Now, in the end, only one was blocked, but certainly the the opposition, the coalition, has said they are a threat, they are a concern, we can't have anyone with links to Islamic State coming back, they should all be blocked. Um. From looking at from the Australian side, um you've got o- option A, of course, which we're seeing here is you can press charges in Australia. Uh. And that's what we're seeing now play out. So you have these serious allegations, now they get tested in the Australian legal system.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  Um. When it, when we are dealing with children, the dynamics are quite different. I know we've heard the phrase de-radicalisation used a lot, a lot of media discussion about our de-radicalisation programmes. We do have in Victoria, New South Wales, programmes which are intended to take people off the path of radicalisation.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Um.

• 19:50Speaker 06

  You know, through Victoria Police Board of Imams in Victoria. That's something that if you are going down that road of radicalisation, they can divert you away from it.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:01Speaker 06

  But when we are dealing with these children, um. Overwhelmingly, what the, what they will go through is actually just a reintegration and support. You know, we are dealing most likely with trauma, but again, how children respond to trauma can vary greatly, can vary just on the individual, it can vary in how the parents have cared for them and any other things that they've seen. But fundamentally, it's about making them feel Australian again. It's about getting them back into schools, into sporting clubs, not having the media limelight on them all the time, because again, that just alienates you, um, that exposes you. It's about trying to make them as normal Australian kids as possible. And, you know, I, I did a recent story about the issues of trauma, speaking to some of

• 20:46Speaker 06

  those, uh, previous returnees and those who have worked with, uh, children that have come back and, you know, the, the word is that they've done really well and that offers some hope for the latest, uh, arrivals, um, that the kids will also do really well. Um, you know, even speaking to, for instance, um, you know, people who have worked with like former child soldiers have said there's really good results as well. So one of the key arguments for why there was a responsibility for Australia to support these children is that we do have the systems to make them, to, to reintegrate and give them a positive life in Australia.

• 21:27Speaker 06

  And a counter argument to that is the longer you leave someone in a camp, then you are exposing them to extreme forces, you are making them feel alienated and that perhaps, perhaps can increase the risk. You know, and a, a final kind of disclaimer on that, when we are talking about risk,

• 21:47Speaker 06

  becoming a terrorist is only one of a whole array of options when someone isn't reintegrating well. Maybe they're dropping out of school, maybe they struggle to get employment, all these other factors, you know, can happen if a child doesn't. Get that support that they need.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, some of the reporting you've done around a girl who's named in the reporting is Jasmine. Um, was a really great insight into what it would be like returning. Um, as a young child from a place like Syria. So we'll pop a link to that in the show notes this episode. So people can read a bit about what that experience is like. It'll set us up. Um, so for the next episode, we've got with James, we're actually looking at, you know, what's been heard in court. The impacts on children um that have been presented to the courts already. I mean, James, we've talked here a lot about the children. We've talked about the women who've been charged. Touched briefly on, you know, the other women who've come back as well. For the women who haven't been charged and have come back. What's their life going to look like now? Are they are they left alone into their own devices?

• 22:43Speaker 06

  Well, again, we're going to an argument for why Australia should have allowed or. Supported in some shape or form for these women to come back. Um, I dare say these people have come back will be some of the most watched people in Australia. You know, when we are dealing with um. Threats of terrorism and um perceptions of threat and so on, uh, these people will be watched. I mean, I obviously can't confirm that with ASIO. Uh, security agencies don't tend to tell the media what they're up to every day of the week. But again, when you speak to the experts, they are saying these people will be watched closely for a long time yet.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  Uh, it's again, a different dynamic when you might have someone who becomes radicalised. Who flies under the radar, who they're not aware of. Uh, and then the security agencies get a lot of heat. We've heard about this with the Bondi terrorism attack, for instance. You know, why didn't they pick up on these warning signals? How did these people fly under the radar, especially when we're talking about like flying to the Philippines and stuff? But we know, well, Australia, the government, the authorities know these women. They know where they're living. So an argument for why there should have been some support, or just, you know, again, a wink and a nod to the Syrian government to let them come back, is because the Australian

• 24:04Speaker 06

  security agencies are well equipped to manage the situation and well equipped to deal with any security concerns as well.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the courts are already in progress for the women that we've talked about in this episode. Our next episode, we'll talk more about the charges they're facing, some of the arguments that have already been made about those cases as well. Still very early in the process, but I think, yeah, the experiences of the children that have come back from this location, I think is going to be a key part in our next episode. And also the risk that these women pose to the community. Again, that's been something that was discussed in Zenab's bail hearing, Corsera, the bail hearing I've been sitting in on the last couple of days, also come up there as well. So yeah, looking forward to chatting more with you about that, James.

• 24:45Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  In our next episode, we're going to talk more about the slave that Zenab and Corsera are accused of buying and owning in Syria, where she was purchased from. We're back in your feed on Thursday.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  The Case of the ISIS Brides is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by James Oaten and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Wurundjeri people.