14 Jesse & Luke | Accused told police 'I'm not a bad person' after arrest

The court heard the accused murderer told police he "did not want to be judged" after revealing where he'd hid Jesse Baird and Luke Davies's bodies. Court reporter Jamie McKinnell also tells Stocky prosecutors revealed internet searches relating to gun silencers and a screenshot of a YouTube video on mixing concrete. If you have questions you'd like Jamie and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]? Family and domestic violence support: If you need help, contact 1800 Respect national helpline on 1800 737 732. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  For almost four days, Bo Lamar Condon kept quiet in a cell while police searched in the wrong place for the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. In this episode, what the accused murderer said when he finally spoke. I'm Stephen Stockwell, this is episode 14 of the case of Jessie and Luke.

• 1:04Speaker 04

  He's accused of shooting Jessie Baird and Luke Davies with his service firearm.

• 1:09Speaker 05

  Police now allege Constable Bo Lamar Condon murdered the couple at a home in Paddington.

• 1:14Speaker 06

  This is just a terrible incident that's occurred here, the loss of these two young men.

• 1:21Speaker 07

  Now this is Nadi Grath time and yet it's a community in mourning.

• 1:24Speaker 06

  The pain is ongoing. We don't have a lot of answers that we would love to have just to help bring closure, to bring peace.

• 1:32Stephen Stockwell?

  One of the final pieces of the prosecution's case against Bo Lamar Condon is what he said to police in the days after his arrest, in a number of conversations he had with them. And this evidence, along with what was found on the accused murderer's phone, has been put to the court as the Crown starts to wrap up their case. And in court, as all of that has unfolded, is ABC Legal Affairs reporter Jamie McKinnell. Welcome, Jamie.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Hello, Stocky.

• 1:58Stephen Stockwell?

  Jamie, we have seen the vision of Bo Lamar Condon being arrested previously. Now we know what he said in the conversations he had with police after that arrest. And there were some kind of surprising details in that.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, we've learned how he came into the picture in terms of this effort by police to find the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. And what conversation he engaged in as he was waiting for investigators to arrive at that location after he had given them some help in finding it.

• 2:26Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. I found some of the conversations he had with police around some of the detail they were looking for, really interesting, and we'll get into them in this episode. But before we dive in, can you wrap up the last couple of days for us?

• 2:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. So the jury has heard that eight days after Jessie Baird and Luke Davies died, Bo Lamar Condon helped identify the Bungonia monastery area where police would later find their bodies. We heard that during this period, he was emotional, he told investigators he wasn't a bad person, and he expressed concern at being judged. The court was told that this occurred after he had spoken to a lawyer, but it also wasn't the first time that investigators had attempted to gain his assistance during that search after he was arrested. The jury has also learned what police found in a review of the contents of his iPhone and his iCloud, and that included screenshots, website viewing history, calendar entries

• 3:19Speaker 04

  from eBay purchases, and even notes and blocked phone contacts. We heard from a man who went on a couple of dates with the accused in the weeks before the alleged murders. We also heard from the owner of a television production company who had interviewed and then hired Jessie Baird for a job that was meant to start on the day that he died. And we heard that that woman got a message from Jessie Baird's phone after he didn't show up, which cancelled that opportunity.

• 3:49Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you, Jamie. I want to dive straight into the conversations that Bo Lamar Condon had with police after his arrest. There's so much to talk about there. We know that Bo Lamar Condon is arrested on Friday, the 23rd of February, 2024. This is four days after the deaths of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. He is taken to a custody centre and a bit before midday, police try to have a conversation with him. And initially, he keeps pretty quiet, right?

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, so initially, he didn't say a lot. He was told that anything he did say may be recorded, and he says he understands. Initially, he declined to be interviewed, and the court was hearing about these various interactions through the witness statement of Detective Sasha Penaza. That statement was read out in court, parts of it, and she was in the witness box confirming the contents of that statement. So this is how she has sort of retold what she remembers as her interactions with the accused.

• 4:45Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. It was interesting to see how this was kind of presented by the officer in charge, Sasha Penaza, someone we've heard from a number of times throughout this trial, kind of keeps getting recalled to tell different pieces of evidence and kind of connect to different CCTV and the like. And yeah, this is the moment after the arrest of Bo Lamar Condon where she's kind of talking through her statement of what she recalled at that time. And one of the things that stuck out to me was kind of what happened at the end of this very kind of first conversation that she has with Bo Lamar Condon. As you mentioned, he kind of declines that opportunity for an interview. But there's something that Sasha Penaza says as she's kind of leaving the room after that conversation. What was that?

• 5:26Speaker 04

  So she told him that it might be in his best interests to speak to a lawyer about the New South Wales no body, no parole legislation. And in her statement, which was read to the court, Detective Penaza recalled that the accused didn't know what that legislation was. And so the way she explained it to him was that this is legislation that excludes a person convicted of murder from release on parole in circumstances where the victims have not been located and the accused has not assisted in finding them. So that was a pretty interesting thing for her to speak about at that very early stage, pretty soon after his arrest.

• 6:05Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. We do know that police were searching for the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies at this point. And again, this is the Friday, Friday, the 23rd of February. We know that Elizabeth Kennedy, someone who travelled with Bo Lamar Condon to a farm in Bungonia, is talking to police around the same time as that. And police kind of stay around this remand centre from the sounds of it and actually go back later in the day to talk to Bo Lamar Condon again. And they ask him about this information they've got from Elizabeth Kennedy, you know, that they've heard that the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies might be in a dam. Does he say anything then?

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Well, we heard that at that point, again, he cited legal advice and said, I can't comment. So he didn't confirm or deny that they were searching in the right area when they were looking at the Bungonia area. But he talks to them again before they leave. Detective Penaza remembers him holding a document, and this document was what's called a statement of alleged police facts. So it's a description of what police will allege at that very early point. And so he was holding this document, and she says that Mr Lamar Condon told her that he wanted to provide information, but he also wanted to speak to a lawyer again. He also said, I've read the facts and I didn't take an Uber from Paddington, my Uber account would show that.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  So she told him that that document is something that may change considerably based on more evidence arising as the investigation continued. And he then requested a private conversation, but Detective Penaza said that she wasn't willing to have a one-on-one conversation, so she took him into a room with another colleague also present. There, he spoke about not remembering and having what he described as an outer body experience. She said in her statement that he was crying and emotional, he spoke about previous work-related matters messing him up. He claimed that he was sent to youth command as a punishment. And he also said, I don't want you to judge me, I'm not a bad person. He asks if police were close to finding the bodies, and Detective Penaza told him

• 8:10Speaker 04

  that she wouldn't discuss the investigation further unless it was a formal interview. And at that point, again, he said he did want to assist, but he was speaking to a lawyer and then declines to.

• 8:21Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay, right. So that is the Friday, I assume, afternoon at this point where these conversations are taking place. We know the police were kind of hanging around that remand centre most of the day, trying to get information from Bo Lamar Condon. We hear then that Sasha Penaza goes back to this remand centre on Tuesday. So that's four days later after this interview. At this time, she says Bo Lamar Condon is kind of prepared to talk to police. What changed?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Well, we heard that he had only just accepted representation from a different lawyer, and he wanted to talk to police. So he was shown a map of the Royal National Park, but he says that's not the right location to police. He said that the location was actually in the area of the farm that they had been interested in previously. And so the detectives had to get a laptop out and bring up maps. And at that point, the accused indicated roads in the Bungonia area that he had travelled to an area around this Greek monastery. So Sasha Penaza Googled that sort of subject items and churches in the area that might match that. She ends up bringing up pictures of what looks like a Greek monastery in the area

• 9:32Speaker 04

  that he's described. And that's the point when Bo Lamar Condon says that, to the best of his memory, that is where he left the bodies of Jessie and Luke. One of the detectives then left the room to go and tell the investigators who were out involved in the search.

• 9:49Stephen Stockwell?

  Something surprised me about this moment. Sachin Panazza says that as the other detective leaves the room to kind of inform the investigators so they can go and check the Greek monastery. Bola Markcondan asks if he can stay with them while that kind of search takes place. And Sachin Panazza says, yeah, that's fine. You can, you can stay with us. And they end up having a bit of a conversation. What do they talk about?

• 10:12Speaker 04

  Well, she remembers one topic of conversation was that he talked about how upset he was that New South Wales Police wouldn't be able to march in the Mardi Gras that year. He also expressed upsets at the, the trauma of the deaths of Jessie and Luke. And according to Detective Panazza's statement, he also said that one day he hoped to be able to speak to the families of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. And he also expressed again concern about being judged.

• 10:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay, you know, we do know that police find Jessie Baird and Luke Davies's body at that Greek monastery. Does that kind of conversation wrap up pretty quickly once that's, once their, once their bodies are discovered?

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we heard in Detective Panazza's statement that once word came back that investigators out searching had confirmed that the bodies of Luke and Jessie had been found at that location. Bola Markcondan then sought to promptly leave the room.

• 11:08Stephen Stockwell?

  And Jamie, you know, we've heard all of this through Sachin Panazza, the officer in charge. But we should point out as well, you know, she's yet to be kind of cross-examined or questioned at all by Bola Markcondan's barrister, right?

• 11:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she's been giving evidence and then leaving the witness box, being temporarily excused at some points. But she has not been cross-examined. So what we don't know is what, if any challenges from the defence there will be to her evidence.

• 11:35Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, thank you, Jamie. A real interesting insight into the way that those conversations were had. The, you know, the way that they were kind of controlled as well, you know, kept focused on the investigation and, you know, who was around at the times those conversations were taking place as well. And also how long it took for police to, you know, get that information after they were looking for the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies for, you know, kind of four days at that point, after they'd received information from Elizabeth Kennedy. You know, the Crown is wrapping up their case at the moment. We're getting kind of a few little bits and pieces as this is kind of closing out. One of the final witnesses was the police officer who examined the contents of Bola Markcondan's electronic devices, his phone, his laptop, all of those things.

• 12:17Stephen Stockwell?

  This showed them basically the websites he had looked at, the contacts he had on his phone. Even, as you mentioned earlier, Jamie, the calendar entries that had been on his phone as well. What stood out to you from this evidence?

• 12:30Speaker 04

  There was a bunch of different items and, and sort of data in there to indicate things that had been deleted on the phone, which I thought was interesting, that they can tell the way the data is, is marked, that things have been moved to the trash intentionally. But this evidence came from a detective senior constable, Jennifer Clissold. She's what they call a cell bright operator. And cell bright is the, the software that police use to, to conduct a review of, of a person's mobile phone contents. So she conducted, or helped conduct this, this huge review that she said took weeks of Bola Markcondan's devices and also his iCloud. There was data in there from a searched item on Safari, the web browser, back as far as November 2023,

• 13:16Speaker 04

  about things like how to get around Instagram, blocking your accounts and accounts you may create. That same month, there was search history for a website that had the text in it, watch Instagram stories anonymously and Jessie Baird's Instagram handle. There were deleted calendar extracts that appeared to have been these sort of automatically created calendar entries from an email that you might get when you order something online. This was an event describing an eBay purchase and an expected delivery date. And it was for an item described as custom number plate car novelty rego plate. So we heard that that was created around the 23rd of November.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  And there was also another similar deleted calendar entry from February the following year. We saw deleted web history for car, a car hire website in December 2023. And from January, we saw that there was data from a search of an Indonesian website for silences and results that had come up showing silences on this website. And we heard that that was at a point that coincided with Mr. Lamar Condon's trip to Bali over the New Year period. Also, around early February, there was a deleted search of where to legally buy fireworks in Canberra. So a lot of different pieces that were found during that review of his phone.

• 14:39Stephen Stockwell?

  It was interesting hearing the officer kind of talking through all of that. And you get this sort of like, you know, really thin, narrow window into, you know, searches, things that were deleted, all of that. Obviously, it's not everything that is found on Bola Markcondan's devices. These are things that, you know, they were specifically looking for and that prosecutors believe are relevant to this case. And Jamie, the things you've spoken about here, they're all searches and things from before the deaths of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. So prior to the 19th of February, was there much on the phone after that period?

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, there were some items that appeared relevant and, and were sort of spoken about in this evidence. So on the 21st, two days after the deaths of Jessie and Luke, there was an image showing a website that had locations of stockists of ocean and earth surf supplies. And one of those that came up was a, a place called the Surfboard Warehouse in Tempe. Also, on the same day, there was data from a YouTube post from the Bunnings account, which had a title, "How to Mix Concrete", and it appeared to be some kind of DIY type video. On the 22nd of February, there was a deleted note that said, "I'm just going to be down the road cleaning, so you don't have anything to do with it."

• 15:57Speaker 04

  Now, a reminder here, Socky, that this came up during the evidence of Fiona Rosso, the friend who Mr. Lamar Condon went to visit north of Sydney the night before that he, he went to police. And she was asked whether she remembers seeing a note with that text on it, but she could not remember seeing that or that happening. So that sort of came up again in, in terms of his iPhone review. We heard that police also searched these devices for things like the words surf, boogie, stand, paddle and board. And the only results they found after searching for those terms included a message to Jessie Baird

• 16:40Speaker 04

  at one point saying, "I'm going to go for a surf either at Bondi or Marubra on Sunday and just hire a board and a wetsuit." There were also, we heard a few images to do with surfboards. One was from July 2023, when the accused was in Europe. And it was a photo of him holding a surfboard on the back of a truck. And also another photo from the Bali trip in late December 2023, where he was walking with a surfboard sort of into the water. But this witness said there was no image or photo or anything of him actually surfing. She said the extent of it was a video of him walking into the water with a surfboard.

• 17:19Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, okay. One of the things that stuck out to me as well as all of these other, you know, searches that police were doing, the calendar entries were something that kind of stuck with me as well. I didn't realise that was something that they would kind of be looking for or able to find. But along with that, some of the contacts that were extracted from Bola Markcondan's phone, I wasn't expecting. Did he have numbers for some of Jessie Baird's family?

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we heard in this evidence that there was contact data retrieved as part of this search. And they were for contacts for Helen Baird, Brendan Baird and Luke Davies. But that data that they recovered said the source was from Instagram. And it had a description in there that said, "Interaction status friend and blocked." So it, it wasn't really explained a lot in terms of what that data means or whether there was a date that that happened. But it was interesting that those contacts were recorded at some point, somewhere in his phone as being blocked.

• 18:17Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, okay. We did also hear that Jessie Baird and Luke Davies's phones were never recovered. So police didn't have them. They never got to look through them. Something we've had a lot of questions about, so we can close that loop there. Also, the second phone that Bola Markcondan was using around the times of the deaths of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies was never recovered either, Jamie. But there was a phone found in the skip bin. Whose was this?

• 18:44Speaker 04

  So we heard that this was an old phone of Jessie Baird. It was an older model iPhone and it had been used a few times in recent years, but not consistently. So it was a phone that police realised the last time it had been turned on was in August 2023. So Detective Senior Constable Clissold concluded that this was not Jessie Baird's current phone. We heard that his current phone and Luke Davies's current phone has never been located. And we also heard that in relation to Mr. Lamar Condon's phone that they reviewed, it had a period of, of no recorded calls between the 10th of February and the 22nd of February 2024.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  And so investigators formed the belief that things had been deleted. They also saw screenshots of certain chat logs, but then they couldn't find the chats or the messages that those screenshots related to. And so for that reason, they again believed that it's likely some things have been deleted from this phone.

• 19:44Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, okay. You mentioned at the start of the episode, Jamie, someone that Bola Markcondan was kind of seeing around the time of the deaths of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies. This is someone who I think he went to a boat party with the weekend before Jessie Baird and Luke Davies had died. And was also in communication with Bowler Markconden that week as well. So kind of between the the nineteenth and the the twenty second, twenty third of February. What were they talking about?

• 20:11Speaker 04

  Well, one of the messages was from the twentieth of February, so the day after the alleged murders. And this man who had been on a couple of dates with Mr. Lamarconden and was sort of seeing him at this point. Just asked, how was your Monday? And we heard played in court these voice notes or voice memos that Mr. Lamarconden sent him back. And in those notes, we heard him explaining how he's having one of those weeks. He said, sorry, I've been MIA. He also spoke about having a day operation, a minor procedure the following day. He said he was nervous about that. He spoke about having not been to the gym that week and having no intention of doing so.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  He also spoke about his plans to go to a boat party on the Sunday on that weekend. But he said he was going to cancel that.

• 21:03Speaker 04

  He explained part of the reason was that he felt like his body was not looking its best right at that point. And he said, quote, I just don't want to be on a boat full of gays. So generally, he was saying in these messages that he wasn't feeling great. He wasn't in a good headspace and he wanted to improve that. But he also did ask this man what the plan is for the weekend. And they sort of broadly discussed whether or not they were going to do anything on the Saturday.

• 21:30Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. All right. It was, yeah, an interesting insight, I think, Jamie, into kind of the conversations that Bowler Markconden is having that week. It seems almost as though he's trying to maintain a kind of normal life throughout that period. Something, Jamie, that happened the very end of the day on Tuesday afternoon. An almost poetic comparison made by Justice Natalie Adams as jurors were about to leave for the day.

• 21:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she referenced the Melbourne Cup and she acknowledged that there had been

• 22:01Speaker 04

  a couple of legal arguments that the jury has, you know, been told that were going to happen. So they were aware of them. And she noted that the Melbourne Cup was won by a horse named Point of Law. She she mentioned that when she was a solicitor, they actually used to adjourn for the race because it was thought that jurors wouldn't be able to focus knowing what was happening. But that wasn't the case on Melbourne Cup Day. We just pressed through and the jurors probably found out about the race later.

• 22:30Stephen Stockwell?

  Well, probably from Justice Natalie Adams telling them the horse that won it in the courtroom. I I thought that was an interesting moment. I'd actually completely forgotten the race was on. So I did appreciate that moment from Justice Adams to to remind us or inform us of the winner. Although while she says that courts don't adjourn for the race anymore. I will say that across the park at the Downing Centre, where Alan Jones's trial is unfolding. They did take a short break to to watch the race there. So maybe not as far from Justice Adams's past as she might think. On Alan Jones, though, we will have an update for you next week. There's much to unpack in that case. We've had the evidence from Kate McCymont, the woman that broke the stories that sort of brought the charges against Alan Jones.

• 23:12Stephen Stockwell?

  And also now a non-publication order has lifted on some of Companion A's evidence. We can bring you some more detail there as well. So we'll be in your feed next week with an episode of the case of Alan Jones. Don't worry, we're getting your emails. I'm still reading them and I'm feeling very bad that we're not bringing you more of that. So we'll have more of that for you very soon. Speaking of emails, plenty coming in, as I've mentioned, coming through to [email protected]. And I did promise we would dive into some. I'm going to keep good on that promise and get through as many as we can in a reasonable amount of time. And I want to start with one that has been sent in by both Dean and Joanna, Jamie. They've been emailing separately, but thinking about the same thing, obviously. They're wondering about the knife that we talked about in our last episode.

• 23:57Stephen Stockwell?

  They're both wondering if that is a separate knife to the one that is suspected to have caused an injury to Luke Davies's thigh.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  It's slightly unclear, but it it seems separate in the way that it's been raised. So if we go back to Bowler Markconden's handwritten statement, that was in June twenty twenty five. This was a statement in which he blamed Elizabeth Kennedy for the plan to dispose of their bodies. And in that statement, he said that it was Elizabeth Kennedy who got his pocket knife out of a vehicle and tried to cut multiple holes in the surfboard bag. And he said that was where Luke got the knife wounds in his leg. This is in relation to the Bungonia trip, also a trip in which Ms. Kennedy denies being at the dam. She says she was left at the farm gate. So that statement came about quite some time after the autopsy on Luke Davies's body.

• 24:48Speaker 04

  And we heard that when the pathologist had identified the wounds on his leg, that was the point when police went back to Brown Street and had a look for knives. They ended up seizing some knives from the kitchen. What seems like separately to that, they also received information that a person who lived in the Paddington area had found a knife sort of in the street or near their home in the week of the alleged murders. So police retrieved that knife, but because that knife had been washed and used, there wouldn't have been any utility in testing it. So there are a couple of different mentions of knives, but they do seem like separate ideas at this point.

• 25:29Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay, thank you, Jamie. Thank you, Dean and Joanna. This is something that strikes me as one of those kind of things that happen in a court case where you have, you know, six different pieces of information. And we don't know exactly how the prosecution is intending to connect all those things or the story that the prosecution says that we'll say to the jury until we get to the closing arguments. So I appreciate you kind of spelling out all the different evidence that we've heard around the knives and the injury to Luke Davies's thigh as well, Jamie. Thank you for taking us through that. And we've got a couple of questions here from Kirsten. I'm going to give you both of them at the same time and hope you can knock this out for us. First, were the vehicle hires arranged before or after the deaths of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies? And two, when did the secondary phone of Bowler Markconden go live?

• 26:16Speaker 04

  So in relation to the the blue Mazda, the hire vehicle that we've heard, he sort of switched in and out of at different points. That was hired around the weekend or the day before Jessie Baird and Luke Davies died. We heard that the van was hired after their deaths. And the secondary phone, which the Crown has called a burner phone, was connected on the sixteenth of January in twenty twenty four. In some of the evidence we've heard, that that was used at different points, including during the week of the alleged murders. It was registered in the name of Bob Ballard at the accused's address. So it was just over a month before the alleged murders.

• 27:01Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay, thank you, Jamie. And thank you, Kirsten, for sending us that question. Appreciate you getting in touch. That's what we call a double-barreled question. But Jamie is so across the detail, it is no trouble for him at all. I wouldn't go a triple-barreled question, but a double-barreled question, Jamie seems totally fine with handling. Question here, Jamie, from a number of people. We have heard in the defence case that Bowler Markconden was at Jessie Baird's house to collect some possessions. That's what he says he was doing there on the the morning of the nineteenth of February. And a number of people, so Janet, Graham, Dave, Adam, June, I think some probably some others as well. So I'm sorry if I've forgotten you if you asked this question. They're wondering if we've heard what those items were.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we've heard generally from the defence opening way back in the first week of this trial. We heard John Stratton S C say that the reason why Mr. Lamarconden went to the house that day was to retrieve some of his possessions, which included jewellery. There's no more detail about that yet, but we are getting to a point now, Stocky, where with the defence case imminently starting, some of that detail may be filled in quite soon.

• 28:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Don't worry, there, you know, there's a lot of emails that we're getting with questions we can't answer, but I'm keeping tabs on them quite literally in the the case of inbox, [email protected]. So Jamie, you know, I feel like the Crown case has been closing for a week now. We've talked about it, I think, in probably three episodes to this point. Are we there yet?

• 28:29Speaker 04

  It sounds like we're getting very, very close now. So we've had Detective Penaza, the O I C, the officer in charge, back in the witness box. One significant thing that hasn't happened yet is she has not yet been cross-examined. So that will probably be one of the very last things to happen. But it does sound like the Crown is jumping around different topics and tying up what might be perceived as loose ends and sort of just checking off everything that they need to cover.

• 28:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, crossing the Ts and dotting the Is, as you would expect any good lawyer to do at this stage of a trial. Jamie, with the defence case starting potentially today, am I right in thinking that Bowler Markconden could be walking across the floor from the dock into the witness box?

• 29:14Speaker 04

  It's certainly an option for him, but remembering as well that the Crown has the onus of proof. So he doesn't have to do that. But that is definitely one option that we are preparing for. If it happens, we will certainly be covering it quite thoroughly.

• 29:31Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the, you know, if you're reading some news by the time you're listening to this episode, that Bowler Markconden has given evidence in his double murder trial. We will have all of those details for you in your feed on Tuesday next week. Jamie, thank you so much for for joining us for this episode.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  No worries. Thanks.

• 29:49Stephen Stockwell?

  We'll be back in your feed on Tuesday next week. To make sure you don't miss all of these developments, make sure you get yourself around ABC. Listen, it is the best place to listen to The Case Of. You can watch us on there as well with the video episodes that are up. Also, if you're following us somewhere else, if you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on another podcast platform, give us a like and a review of some sort if you can. Follow us if that's an option on whatever platform you're using, because those little actions might not seem like much, but it makes it much easier for other people to find us. And if you've been finding the process interesting on the case of Jessie and Luke, hopefully other people will as well.

• 30:26Stephen Stockwell?

  The Case of Jessie and Luke is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Jamie McKinnell and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson. A very big thank you to video producer Dylan Bean, to our senior lawyer Jasmine Sims, our legal queen for her legal advice, to the New South Wales newsroom and also to Audio Studios manager Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're under people.