Alan Jones | Pre-trial sets stage for assault charges trial

Former powerhouse broadcaster Alan Jones will fight 22 charges of indecent assault and sexual touching, in a trial starting next month. Pre-trial hearings are underway to nail down evidence and finalise the charges, with Sydney reporter Isobel Roe there for it all. In this episode, Isobel takes Stocky through the Local Court pre-trial hearings so far in Sydney, and the background to the case. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

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  From the number one rating talk show to the New South Wales Local Court, Alan Jones is now weeks away from a highly anticipated trial where he will fight sex abuse charges. I'm Stephen Stockwell, this is The Case of Alan Jones.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

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  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning.

• 1:14Speaker 05

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

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  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men. I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  For decades, Alan Jones made a living from talking, but for the next few months, he will need to sit and listen as the New South Wales Local Court hears evidence related to more than 20 assault charges. It is a huge moment for someone who, at various points of his life, has been an Australian cultural, political, even sporting icon. And we'll be keeping you up to speed throughout this trial with the help of ABC Court reporter Isobel Ro. Isabel, thank you for joining us. You're very welcome. Great to have you with us for this series. We've known each other for years. We have, Brisbane Pal.

• 2:04Speaker 06

  Queenslanders through and through.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  That's it. And we find ourselves on a podcast together, which is the path of everyone from Brisbane. And we thought with the pre-trial hearing starting this week, it'd be a good opportunity to bring everyone up to speed on what's happening with Alan Jones. It's kind of a sort of a soft launch of his trial yesterday. What's going on?

• 2:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it's the pre-trial hearing, which is like all the legal argument in the lead up to what is going to be a pretty long, potentially six week, maybe even longer trial. Yeah, so it's where the lawyers get together and talk about the sorts of legal issues that have kind of come up in what is going to be, we hope, I guess, a pretty interesting case.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Before we dive into the pre-trial details and kind of what unfolded yesterday, what is Alan Jones on trial for?

• 2:49Speaker 06

  So he's charged with indecent assault and sexual touching without consent. And these are charges that range from 2003 to 2019. So it's over quite a long period. All of these charges he denies.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Right, okay. And we've got 22 charges here that Alan Jones is facing. There's 20 indecent assault charges and two sexual touching charges. And these relate to six complainants. Isabel, can you tell me what that means, what these charges may relate to?

• 3:23Speaker 06

  It means in this case, essentially allegedly touching someone on the outside of their clothes. In some cases, the charges mention kissing the complainant on the lips, touching a complainant on their bottom, on their thigh. And in particular, the sexual touching charges relate to something slightly more serious. So the wording of that charge, for example, is kissing the complainant on the corner of his mouth and pushing his body, including his genitalia against the complainant's upper inner thigh. So it's quite a specific charge in relation to that sexual touching another person charge as well.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Thank you, Isabel. I really appreciate the kind of the distinction, a bit of clarity around that because I've been reading indecent assault and sexual touching for a couple of weeks now. And in my mind, I've been trying to actually work out what acts that may refer to, so to have this sort of specific allegation. Is really helpful. This is a big story because it involves Alan Jones. Can you give us an idea of how big a deal he is, or I guess probably more reasonably was?

• 4:26Speaker 06

  Was, yeah. I mean, Alan Jones is kind of a household name in Sydney for people of a certain era. In the days when you got up in the morning, you turn on the radio and you sort of lived your life by whatever the morning host was talking about. That was Alan Jones for a long period of time in Sydney. He started at the breakfast show on 2UE. He then went to 2GB, so two big commercial radio stations. He had that sort of power that old school, big media figures have. He'd dine with the PM, he'd dine with the premier. He'd go on air to talk about like a really big issue of the day, the sorts of things that he thought, you know, you know, the battler cared about, you know, people in Sydney's western suburbs.

• 5:09Speaker 06

  And he made a name for himself, sort of standing up for the battlers, I guess, largely more conservative talking points. Or things I guess he thought mattered to working class Australians. And yeah, a lot of what Alan Jones said goes, the premier would would talk about the issues, policies would change. You know, he had some some serious power. He also was the Wallabies coach, which I honestly forget. And I feel like a lot of people forgot there for a moment. But in 1984, he was he was coaching the Australian rugby union team because he started off as a rugby coach. So he's had, you know, plenty of lives.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the the political influence and his role in political life in Australia is something that, you know, for anyone probably under 40, really is hard to understand. And and I think certainly not in the political influence side, but in a kind of scale and awareness of a radio personality size. His recognition would probably be a similar level to somebody like Carl Sanderlands, probably even greater than someone like Carl Sanderlands as well. So he was a huge figure and I guess, Isabel, it was a real shock when he was arrested.

• 6:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was a shock. Um, you can kind of imagine the scene of the media all outside of his house. He lives in the toaster, which if you're a Sydney person, you know, is this big building. To have an apartment there is a pretty big deal. Uh, it's at circular key, you know, views of the best bits of Sydney. And, you know, media are all crowded outside his apartment where the car of the, you know, the car that he's in with the cops sort of driving him out. And as the media, you can see the old footage as the media are taking photos by the window, you know, that the flash comes up and you can kind of see in the car for a split second. And there's Alan Jones, you know, in his green tracksuit, having been arrested. This is a man that, you know, is a household name

• 7:02Speaker 06

  across Sydney as a radio presenter. Um, and then he was let out that day at the Day Street Police Station in Sydney, uh, to waiting media, again peppered with questions. And there was just no response from him other than, where is my car? You know, please let me get out of here, essentially.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  And so, yeah, it was, it was a massive deal, that arrest.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I mean, this is, for this trial, we're looking at 20 plus, um, assaults, allegations, basically, that are being put before the courts. What's his response to them been?

• 7:34Speaker 06

  He's always denied it. Uh, he denied it in the first, um, tranche of charges. Uh, he denied it when he gave this short sort of press conference outside his first court appearance. Uh, he denies it now. He's pled not guilty. Um, and he says that there is just, you know, no case to stand on. And essentially, he will have his day in court.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Um, the day in court is fast approaching. We're at the pre-trial stage at the moment. So that started yesterday and then was, uh, promptly adjourned with the parties needing to sort something out. Uh, what were they discussing? Where was this kind of going in court yesterday?

• 8:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it was about an hour and then we all sort of gave up and went home to talk about things, uh, without the court being there. But essentially, what has been happening in the lead up to this is, you know, the defence has been trying to, um, you know, have some charges downgraded, to change some of the charges. Um, they said yesterday that they've filed a stay, which could relate to some charges. It's not entirely clear. Um, But it seems to be a discussion that's ongoing with the prosecution about whether or not there is a stay in these proceedings. There was mention of changes to charges in the court yesterday. And the DPP said that they understood that the proposition that police seizure of

• 8:56Speaker 06

  devices was unlawful is no longer being pressed. So this is something that defence has been saying from the beginning of this case. When Alan Jones was arrested, his phones were taken, or our phone. And there was, defence were saying from the beginning that they thought that that was unlawfully seized. And now apparently they're not making that claim anymore. So there's things that are happening in the background, clearly in discussion between the defence and the prosecution. Hopefully, we're going to hear more about that this week.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was interesting, almost in what we didn't hear yesterday when I was kind of dialing in and having a listen to the proceedings in the New South Wales local court in this kind of pre-trial process. Alan Jones arrest was kind of, you know, preceded by some reporting by Kate McLeimont from the Sydney Morning Herald. There was a series of stories that she'd put together that kind of pointed to allegations. And there was also a lawyer for the Sydney Morning Herald in court yesterday. There had been a conversation about a media subpoena. Was that documents related to potentially Kate's reporting?

• 9:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I guess to take us back a bit, the reason that the investigation even started into Alan Jones was because of some media reporting. It was Kate McLeimont's stories, Sydney Morning Herald investigative reporter, that meant police started this investigation. She spoke to a range of people with various allegations against Alan Jones in 2023. And then basically a year later, he was arrested. So in the reporting of that, presumably Kate McLeimont has spoken to various people. She's made notes as journalists do. And so part of the process in this lead up to these hearings has been the defence trying to get a hold of some of those notes.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Got it, right. You know, you mentioned there that Kate McLeimont's spoken to, or potentially spoken to, some of the complainants in this trial and part of her reporting. Do we know much about who they are or what's happened?

• 10:53Speaker 06

  Essentially, no. We don't know what charges relate to which people in Kate's stories, if any. You know, we don't know the names of the complainants.

• 11:06Speaker 06

  We, I, you, may eventually find out in the process of court reporting, but you, the public, will not know because that is one of the rules of court reporting of, you know, someone who's a victim of a sexual touching or a sexual abuse claim or anything like that, that they're not identified.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 06

  So, um, we won't know, we, the audience, won't know, uh, who these people are, um, and we don't know whether or not they've spoken to the Sydney Morning Herald before, if they're, if they're people that have come forward since then.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Um, Isabel, yesterday in the pre-trial hearing, the, um, the media got a little mention as well, there was a little conversation back and forth between the parties and the, uh, the judge in there, with the, uh, the defence asking if, uh, other arrangements could be made in the courtroom, so you weren't sitting behind the defence teams instructing solicitors and reading their screens. Um, does this mean you can't be trusted, Isabel?

• 11:59Speaker 06

  Yes, absolutely. You know, on reflecting on this, uh, yeah, so the, the judge basically said, you know, well, I think it was raised by the defence first, the defence said, uh, could we please have the media not sit behind my instructing solicitors, um, in case they can read their screens? I was one of these people, you know, offending by sitting behind the instructing solicitors. I wish I had X-ray glasses that worked that well, but I could not see their screens. I don't think there was any way that I could. And then the judge said, oh, well, there is room in the dock. Now, on reflection, I thought he meant the lawyers, but I think he might have actually been meaning for the media to sit in the dock, which is all very hilarious. I'm not sure, it, it, I guess it's usual for the defence in a particularly high-profile case to be a bit anti the media.

• 12:43Speaker 06

  It's interesting in this one because Alan Jones is the media, or was, you know, was the media, so he understands how this works. I think the judge, um, may not love the concept, uh, of the media in general. There's been a few things he's said in court that, uh, makes you think that he's a little bit concerned about, um, reporting in general and having us there. So, yeah, perhaps we end up being moved, perhaps the lawyers being, are being moved to the dock, who knows?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  If it makes you feel any better, Isabel, uh, during the trial of Aaron Patterson, the prosecution, uh, had frustrations with the media and the, uh, the volume of the typing that- That would occur in a courtroom.

• 13:17Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And there is a familiar, a familiar echo of clicking of keyboards. Um. So, yeah, the clackety clack of the, the, the court, court reporters keyboards was a frustration of the prosecution at an early stage of that trial. So, you know, it's not just the defence that we wind up every now and then. So it goes both ways. Um. Isabel, something that I find really interesting about this process, I mean, you know, ordinarily, we do follow pre-trial hearings and we're, we're in there just to see what's unfolding and get an idea of how a trial may unfold. And see if there's things we can report after a trial has concluded, um, because we can't report pre-trial hearings. So how come we can in this instance?

• 13:54Speaker 06

  Because there's no jury.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 13:56Speaker 06

  Yeah. So this is a judge only trial. It does happen sometimes and it's happening, uh, in this case because it's a magistrate's court trial.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:05Speaker 06

  Um. So instead of having a whole bunch of people, uh, that could be influenced by media reporting, if they go home and Google it at night. Uh, instead we have a judge who, uh, as he sort of described, is the judge of law and the judge of fact. He has to decide if the case is going the way that he wants. Uh, he also has to decide whether he believes the complainants, uh, whether he believes the allegations. Uh, and yet there is no jury to prejudice. So the legal risk for reporting is a lot lower. Um, it's just the judge that, um, could be prejudiced, although we assume that he won't be, um, because that's, you know, he, he knows how this works.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:48Speaker 06

  Um, uh, there is also a, a risk about witnesses potentially reading media reporting, but it is a lot lower. So in, in general, um, it is a lot easier to report pre-trial in this instance. Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And as you mentioned, we're in the, the magistrate's court, the local court in New South Wales for this trial. Is that, is that because this is where charges like these ones are heard? Or is this what the parties wanted?

• 15:12Speaker 06

  Um, look, we don't know entirely what's happened in the background here, but I can tell you, I can tell you what happened, I don't know why it happened.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 15:20Speaker 06

  Basically, uh, we don't know why the charges were changed, but they were over time. And it has had the effect of lowering the sentencing abilities of the court and lowering essentially the seriousness of the charges. So in the beginning, Alan Jones was actually facing forty four offences relating to eleven complainants.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 15:39Speaker 06

  Now, that was rearranged in September last year to be twenty seven charges relating to nine complainants. None of those new charges had the word aggravated in front of them. So the old charges were slightly more serious. And now without the word aggravated, they are, uh, active indecency charges instead. That's a lower class of charge essentially, so it can be dealt with at a magistrate level and without a jury. Um, and so that means that it doesn't need to go to the district court, it doesn't need to go to the Supreme Court, it's being dealt with at a local court level in New South Wales. Uh, and the maximum penalty that you can impose in this level of court is five years.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Got it. Thank you for the breakdown. Uh, as you mentioned at the start of the episode, the, uh, the changes keep coming. We actually started the pre-trial yesterday with twenty six charges relating to eight complainants. That was twenty four indecent assault charges and two sexual touching charges. And there was a discussion about that between the parties. There was something they wanted to sort out and they asked for some time to have a conversation, which is the reason that we only got about an hour or so of pre-trial in yesterday. And yeah, this morning they have come back and four charges have been dropped. So we now have twenty two charges down to six complainants. That is twenty indecent assault charges and two charges of sexual touching from six complainants in this trial. There is plenty unfolding in this pre-trial already. Isabel, where do we go from here? Pre-trial the rest of this week and then on to the trial?

• 17:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, so hopefully we are going to get a lot more clarity today and in following days about how this is going to go, whether there's changes to the charges, whether or not we're talking about the illegal seizure of phones or not, some of those issues I mentioned. It's been set down for a week initially, I guess it could go longer, but by the 3rd of August, that is the beginning of the trial. So these pre-trial issues need to be sorted out. That is when the trial will happen in front of Judge Glenn Walsh in the local court. So there's a bit to go yet, but when we get there, it will be, I think, pretty fascinating.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, lots of interesting details to unfold and the deadline of August 3, Judge Glenn Walsh seemed very committed to in court yesterday.

• 17:52Speaker 06

  He did, yes. He said it is happening, it's happening. So yeah, it seems like there's been a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know. So perhaps we'll find out about some of that this week.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there's plenty going on. Really appreciate you joining us for this episode, Isobel, and giving us an insight into, yeah, what's unfolded briefly yesterday and also catching up on the whole story of the charges up against Alan Jones. Yeah, thanks for joining us on the pod.

• 18:18Speaker 06

  You're welcome.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  We'll be back in your feed on Thursday. The best way to listen to the case of is on ABC Listen, so grab yourself that app or have a look at the website and you'll be kept up to date with all of the things that we're covering and working on.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're on tree people.