‘ISIS Brides’ | The slave

Two Australian women — Zeinab and Kawsar Ahmad — have been charged with owning a Yazidi slave in Syria while living under ISIS rule. Reporter James Oaten tells Stocky what life was like for the teenage slave, and the arguments for and against bail for both Kawsar and her daughter Zeinab. UPDATE 26/6/26: Since publishing this episode, alleged slave-owner Kawsar Ahmad has been granted bail by a Melbourne Magistrate. More details: 'ISIS bride' Kawsar Ahmad charged with slavery offences is granted bail https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-06-26/kawsar-ahmad-charged-with-slavery-offences-granted-bail/106848132

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Patricia Carvallis, the host of Politics Now. And sometimes it can be hard to cut through all the noise from the Canberra bubble. But on the Politics Now podcast, bursting it wide open is our core business. I'm joined by the brightest minds at the ABC to break down the polly speak and have a chat about what's actually going on behind the scenes. It's called Politics Now and you can find it on ABC Listen. ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  In a home in Syria, under the control of ISIS, a young Yazidi woman says she was kept as a slave in the home of two Australian women who've just returned. This is the core of a crime against humanity charge that is working its way through the Melbourne courts at the moment. I'm Stephen Stockwell, just heads up, there is some graphic language in this episode. This is the case of the ISIS brides.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Dozens of Australian women either chose to or were forced to travel to Syria as the wives of ISIS fighters.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  These are the people Australia doesn't want, all held in the infamous Al-Hold camp in Syria.

• 1:18Speaker 04

  If you make your bed, you'll own it. These are people who went overseas, supporting Islamic State.

• 1:25Speaker 05

  Six women landed in Sydney and Melbourne late yesterday with 13 children.

• 1:29Speaker 06

  Victorian Joint Counterterrorism Team have arrested a 53-year-old woman. Will be charged tonight or tomorrow with being slaved.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Keep moving, keep moving. Keep moving. That way, that way. Keep going.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Why should we trust you? Of the dozen or so women who've become known as the ISIS brides, four have been charged with terror offences or crimes against humanity, with two women accused of owning a slave in Syria. The court process has started and last week in the Melbourne Magistrates Court was James Oaten. Welcome back, James.

• 2:02Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me again.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Always a pleasure. Appreciate your insight and your knowledge of what's unfolded here. I think, you know, what's happened in the Melbourne Magistrates Court over the last couple of weeks has been really interesting, learning about the kind of first time that, you know, crimes against humanity charges have been tried in Australia and what that looks like, the bail process we're working through at the moment. And kind of central to this process is a young Yazidi woman who says she was kept as a slave by two Australian women in Syria. She says she was bought by the Ahmads, Mohammed Ahmed, the patriarch of this family who travelled to Syria with Korsa Ahmed, his wife. She's the person whose bail application I was in over the last few days. And they're the parents of Zainab Ahmed, who you were following the bail application of last week. I want to talk about this young Yazidi woman, James.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  How does she say she was treated by this family?

• 2:51Speaker 05

  Well, horribly is a, is an understatement. The going to the allegations here, first of all, the Ahmed families, we've heard from the courts here, they entered Syria as a large unit, both the, you know, the patriarch and the matriarch of the household, Mohammed and Korsa, with their children, adult children and husbands and so on, in 2015. Now, police have put to the courts that they actually were raising money in 2014 from Turkey. They set up a charity and police suspect the money used for that charity is used to fund the whole family's movement into Syria from Turkey.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:33Speaker 05

  The charges that we're dealing with here relate to a period from 2017 to 2018. And what police have alleged in the court is that the father Mohammed purchased this Yazidi teenager for 10,000 US dollars in, at around the time of Ramadan in 2017. And she was in the household until late 2018. In the AFP Statement of Facts, which is essentially a summary of everything that they're alleging here and a timeline of events, they say that she was traded and trafficked 17 times during this period when Islamic State were in control of large areas of Syria and Iraq.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And the Ahmed family are one of those 17 times?

• 4:20Speaker 05

  Yes, the Ahmed family are allegedly one of those families.

• 4:25Speaker 05

  The um the father told this Yazidi teenager, according to the statement of facts, that he had purchased her to be raped and he had purchased her to do house chores. And that was pretty standard. Um. These people were considered property. They were married to the men, um, and the men could do as they pleased under Islamic State. And it was, while there were kind of slight modifications in how the slaves were treated, overwhelmingly, they were just considered property for the men to do as they please.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um. What this young Yazidi woman says happened is pretty horrendous. You know, when I was in court earlier this week, um, I think it might have been Friday last week, when the statement of facts was being read through, there was a school group in the room and the magistrate actually stopped the informant from reading out the section of the statement of facts where the young Yazidi woman says she is raped by Mohammed Ahmed, um, so they could leave the room at that point. Um. There's also other assaults throughout that period as well, including a time where I think she says she was grabbed by her hair and dragged down a set of stairs. Is that right?

• 5:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's that's in the statement of facts as well. And that's been read out to the court as well. They're alleging the father did physically abuse her as well as sexually abuse her, including dragging her down the stairs. Um. There is a slight difference then, obviously, with the mother um of that household, Corsa, uh, versus the uh children. Obviously, we've been following the case of Zainab Ahmed. Um. It's alleged that when the father uh purchased, Mohammed purchased this Yazidi slave for 10,000 US dollars, he's then taken her to meet the wife Corsa, and then she has approved the sale, saying, yep, she will do, essentially.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 6:09Speaker 05

  So that's what makes Corsa's charges, from what we know so far, a little more serious. She's facing three charges as opposed to two of the daughter.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 6:19Speaker 05

  But during this period as well, the um the complainant or the alleged victim here has said that, has described Zainab Ahmed as like the, quote, deputy of the house. So the allegations against Zainab Ahmed is not that she physically assaulted the girl, um, but that she did. Order her around, prevented her from leaving the home and mistreated her badly, but no allegations there of physical assault from Zainab Ahmed.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  James, you haven't heard from the young Yiddish woman who's the complainant in this, not personally in court. Who has spoken to her? Where are we getting her version of events in this story from?

• 6:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, so first of all, I mean, there is a suppression order on revealing her, given that the allegations here are against, you know, relating to sexual violence and so on.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:08Speaker 05

  And she was a minor as well at the same time. There's a lot of details we don't fully know about the actual investigation for two reasons. First of all, this is a bail hearing that we've had with Zainab Ahmed and then obviously with Corsa, the mother. That's not really a time to start examining all the evidence in detail. The way these things goes, first of all, the bail hearing is primarily about understanding the charges and then using essentially a risk assessment tool to work out whether or not bail should be granted. Later down the process, then you have a committal hearing, which is where magistrate does assess the evidence at what is available and then makes a decision whether

• 7:49Speaker 05

  or not the evidence that is available is satisfactory for the case to go to trial. And, you know, presuming along this whole way, the accused is still defending themselves, then you end up with a trial where the jury will actually make a decision as well. So that takes time. So this is not really the time things are going to be tested thoroughly in the evidence.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  James, you know, we've been talking through here, the bail hearings of Zainab and Corsa Ahmed. Zainab's bail hearing or bail application kind of wrapped up last week. You were there. Her bail was refused. Why was that?

• 8:25Speaker 05

  So federal police have spelt out in the prosecution of alleged in the court is that, first of all, she showed clear and repeated support for Islamic State during some years that she was there. You know, they've said that there's photo evidence, there's social media posts, all this stuff that shows the family moving within this territory controlled by Islamic State and repeated posts from her gloating about Islamic State's success or gloating that only a few Australians who had gone there had actually gone back and, you know, make of that as you will, essentially saying. Everyone who's come here, almost everyone who's come here, still loves Islamic State or still supports them. And the defence never questioned that it was her making these social media posts.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  And from that, then they've said, they have then said that there's been no renunciation of that ideology since then.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 05

  Therefore, they just don't know um what kind of a threat she still poses. And they've made another argument, she was married three times, three different husbands. Her first husband that she travelled with died. Uh and then, as we discussed in the first episode, women were expected to marry, so she married again and again.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 9:39Speaker 05

  Um, they've even said that he's still alive somewhere, or suspected to be alive somewhere. He's not in the country.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  But even that itself, they've said that makes a connection.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Hmm. In, you know, in her not sort of renouncing Islamic State or ISIS, it's interesting because, you know, Zainab al-Arbaud did, through her counsel, sort of say she doesn't support that organisation anymore, it's not something she believes in and is a part of. The magistrate didn't buy that?

• 10:07Speaker 05

  No, not strong enough. Too late, too little.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  Is the summary.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:12Speaker 05

  Um, and it, you know, it was interesting and, you know, I don't know if you can ever talk about court cases like you can politics with tactics and so on, but it isn't, you know, I I did note that those comments that she now, from defence, detests Islamic State, she detests her ideology, really pushing the point that men were in control of women there and she's learnt, or she accepts.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:37Speaker 05

  That that is an evil way of doing things, let's use that phrase.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Um, it wa- it wasn't pushed hard early, which, you know, there, there is a difference between that already and her mother, Corser, and their defence team made that argument straight off the bat.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:54Speaker 05

  And and same with the um, with one of the other women who's been charged, Rayan El-Houli. Again, defence made that argument very high off the bat.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  Now, ultimately, a magistrate, chief magistrate judge, will accept all the evidence. Perhaps it doesn't matter so much about the order of the evidence, they don't quite work like we do in in the media.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  But fundamentally, what the chief magistrate here has said is those comments from Zainab Ahmed were only made after she was arrested and after she was separated from her young daughter. She has a young daughter who was born in the Syrian refugee camps. And so those comments did not hold as much weight, anywhere near enough weight. Had perhaps she had made those comments far sooner before she was charged. Perhaps if she had spoken to Kurdish officials and made more social media posts, I don't know what her access to the phone was like in the camps. But it was too late, too little. That's the best way to summarise it.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting talking about Korsar's legal team, her defence team, and the way they've handled her kind of renunciation of ISIS. Peter Morrissey, who's the barrister acting for her legal team, kind of went to the point that she, the statement she's made basically amounted to ISIS sucks. Quite literally, his words in the magistrate's court. And that, you know, ISIS isn't an organisation that takes kindly to a renunciation. So if you are to renounce ISIS, then they're going to notice and it's not going to be an organisation that's going to be kind of happily welcoming you back if that's somewhere that you do want to go. In Zainab's case, what were some of the reasons that the defence gave for her getting bail? Why did they say she should be released?

• 12:32Speaker 05

  Well, I think first of all, one of the things that they did push back on the AFP and the prosecution was almost just saying it's ridiculous, this idea that she is still a threat. The AFP never went into detail, or the prosecution never went into detail about how she could be a threat or what she could potentially do here in Australia. First of all, she's obviously removed from Islamic State. Secondly, it's not the organisation it once was.

• 13:00Speaker 05

  Um. You know, there's only remnants kind of of it left, but you know, there's still a terrorism threat. There are still people linked with it and spread its ideology and stuff. But they never went into any kind of detail about that. And as we've established here, they didn't have to to convince the chief magistrate. But essentially, the defence's argument was that, well, it's ridiculous. Of course, she doesn't pose a threat. But what they didn't bring forward was kind of any expert evidence yet to demonstrate those points. Now, with the mother Corsa Ahmad, we did hear from a forensic psychologist who talked about the rate of recidivism amongst those who have conducted terrorist activity being incredibly low.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  So that you can see that they're pushing that point. Hmm. That the rate that someone would actually reoffend is very low statistically speaking. We know, for instance, you know, we talked in the first episode, Peter Lowe, an anti-violent extremism expert. You know, she has been involved in the repatriation programs with Iraq to bring back some 10,000 people who were linked with Islamic State. Not the actual fighters as much, but a lot of people who might have been involved or showed their support for them. Yep. Um. She was involved with Iraq from um from 2023 until the end of last year with the UN and Iraq. And what she said is, most of those people come back, they do change their views.

• 14:28Speaker 05

  Um. They have changed their views. You know, it can go both ways. Sometimes people go into kind of Syrian refugee camps and become more radicalised. But generally speaking, she um she told me that most do change their views. They've gone there with one idea of what it is or what it should be, and then leave that system with a very different mindset. Hmm. And when they do come back to home, they just want to live a peaceful life. Yep. The other argument that they've made is um the the child that she has. Saying that this is a girl who desperately needs her mum by her side.

• 15:05Speaker 05

  Now, again, this is a girl who grew up in the camps with her mum. And as we discussed in the first episode, how children can be impacted by those camps can vary greatly. This is making some broad comments before we go back into Zainab's case. But fundamentally, a mother in these circumstances can be, can change the trajectory or outcomes of a child tremendously. If they show that love and support and education can really assist their rehabilitation. And for instance, with Maryam Rad's case, this is a case that has come in years prior.

• 15:43Speaker 05

  She did get bail because it was shown that there were problems in that rehabilitation if the mother was removed. And she did get bail to resume that kind of love and care and support that a child would need, especially one coming from these kind of traumatic situations. So that argument was put quite stridently in the court.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  And but ultimately, while that was acknowledged by the chief magistrate, again, it just boiled down to that risk factor. And that idea that your announcement that you actually don't like Islamic State after all is too little, too late.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  The thing that stuck with me from the chief magistrate's decision when denying Zainab Ahmed bail was, you know, when she was talking about the impact on her daughter, saying that, you know, almost despite what she has been through, she's in a pretty good mental state because of the parenting of Zainab throughout that. And, you know, citing the evidence that was given throughout the application that, you know, if her mother's not there, that her state will, you know, decline. That was just kind of confronting to hear throughout that. And then, you know, going on to make the decision that she won't be looking after this child while she awaits trial.

• 17:04Speaker 05

  No, and she won't be. And as we know, this is a case that will likely run some years. You know, a final argument on that point was that the defence team was saying that this case will go for a very long period of time.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  They've made a couple of points, one of which is that.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  They argued that this, um, this, the allegations are against her on the lower side, especially like we compare her to the father. Hmm. They have spelt out that point I made before, that women didn't really have any control or say in what was happening under Islamic State. It's kind of nudging at the idea. It's like, well, what did you expect her to be able to do? Hmm. In terms of like, this slave couldn't leave the house, or what did you kind of expect her to do? Hmm. Um, so they've made points, for instance, that this is going to be a very long court case, given that all the witnesses or many witnesses and experts are overseas.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  Um, and that'll take a long time. She has already spent time in the camps. They're kind of suggesting that should be taken into account. As, you know, when you spend time in jail, that's usually knocked off your sentence. Yeah. I don't know how far that would ever go, but they said it must be taken into account. Uh, and then finally on this issue of, of the child, they've said, when you take into account all these years that she'll spend, you know, incarcerated or in custody, um, while we're waiting for trial. That's a lot of years that she'll be without the child, when the child needs her mum by her side for that full rehabilitation potential.

• 18:40Speaker 05

  Um, even saying that ultimately if she is convicted, which we're a long way off getting anywhere near that because there's only a bail hearing. Hmm. Um, that the punishment might end up being shorter than the time in custody. But what the chief magistrate has said to that is that this is a first, crimes against humanity, these charges. But any, I, any notion or argument that this will be an exceptionally long legal process is just speculation. We just don't know.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yep. So James, as we've been talking about, bail has been refused for Zainab Ahmed. The decision on whether or not Korsa Ahmed will get bail is expected a bit later. I mean, if you look at, you know, the decision around Zainab, you know, the child hasn't been taken into account in a reason that she should get bail, if she hasn't gotten bail even with that there. There's been evidence in Korsa's bail application that she's much healthier, much happier when she is around family as well, but there's no one, you know, in the same sense as Zainab, who is a dependent on her as well. So it will be interesting to see how the magistrate takes that into account. Potentially, if you look at Zainab's decision, might be unlikely, but if that does happen, we'll have an update in the feed.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  Well, it'll be, it'll be higher bar because there are more charges. And again, as you've pointed out, with Zainab Ahmed, she does have that young girl. Korsa can't make that same argument.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. I mean, Korsa, you know, is dealing with some mental health impacts from this as well. There was a moment, I mean, there was a, a report before the court around how she's coping at the moment, dealing with kind of complex PTSD, things like that. There was a point during the hearing where she actually left the, the dock without telling anyone. The hearing continued and the magistrate kind of highlighted that the applicant had disappeared. And, you know, it was explained that, you know, she's dealing with panic attacks and things like that. And that, you know, the, the prison guards that are there or the court security that's there to kind of, you know, have a system to help her out if she's experienced one of them. So it was a short break while she came back in from that.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  So there's a lot that is kind of being worked through that the magistrate's kind of balancing in their minds as they're making, as she's making this decision. I mean, as well as Zainab and Korsa, we've also had Janai Safar in Sydney, one of these recent returnees who's had her bail refused. And then Riaan Al Houli still kind of working through the bail application there as well. And I mean, James, you mentioned Miriam Rad before, you know, one of the reasons that she got bail being that, you know, she had a child to look after.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  I mean, she was also convicted of entering one of these areas. But in the whole process, spent that time on bail, she was in the community. And when she was convicted, she had no conviction recorded as well. Why the different kind of treatment or why the reasoning even behind, behind that?

• 21:32Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, magistrates and judges and so on can make different rulings.

• 21:37Speaker 05

  For starters, but you know, you'd have to boil down to that the seriousness of the allegations against Maryam Rad were not on the same extent for the Ahmads here. As we've mentioned, she also, her defence team also made the arguments that she was not a threat, she needed to be there for the support of her, of her young, young children. And bail was granted and it, you know, could have been that maybe she's, because she spent time in the community, you can kind of track how they're behaving and moving as well because the expert that I mentioned before, Peter Lowe, actually went to the household and was

• 22:18Speaker 05

  assessing how people were behaving and their ideology and all those kinds of things to make a risk assessment. That's her job. She makes risk assessments about what dangers or impacts and how people are coping. And she acknowledged that the children would benefit from the mother's support. And ultimately, yes, this, this Maryam Rad did get bail. She did plead guilty in entering a declared zone, which is essentially the ISIS controlled territory. But she did not receive a conviction. And, and, and the argument there, and the magistrate at the time, reached a decision that there was a level of control and coercion from her husband.

• 23:03Speaker 05

  So when I heard these similar arguments popping up again about the need to care for a child, there is the controlling elements of the men in support of Islamic State, you know, I was preparing myself for either way. So, yeah, look, it would boil down to the seriousness of the charges again, and the seriousness of the allegations. And ultimately, Chief Magistrate was just not satisfied that we'd hit those, quote, "exceptional circumstances" this time around.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Interesting, James, in the case of Zenab and Qosa Ahmed, that they're not charged with terror offences at this stage. The magistrate, even, you know, in the bail hearing of Qosa Ahmed, even highlighted this fact to the prosecution team that, you know, there's this whole conversation around risk, around terrorism risk, but at this point, she's not charged with terrorism offences. And, I mean, it's not uncommon for people, for people to be charged with other offences as a process like this unfolds, is it?

• 23:58Speaker 05

  No, and you know, the, the police can lay charges any time they want when they feel they have enough evidence. Obviously, the prosecution is happy to proceed with that. You know, even with all the recent returnees, you know, we talked a little bit before in the previous episode about the two women who returned from Lebanon last year. They crossed over from another Syrian camp into Lebanon. They were smuggled across with children. And so Rayana Al-Houli was charged just a few weeks back. Yet she arrived last year and the federal police made the point that it was because of the recent returnees, they

• 24:41Speaker 05

  were able to get that little bit of extra evidence that they needed to proceed with charges. So this is certainly not the end of the road necessarily for anyone that's come back. They'll keep examining the evidence and what becomes available. And that could mean more charges for one person or it could be another person who hasn't been charged is charged.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we'll keep everyone up to date here on The Case Of. James, I really appreciate you joining us and taking us through all the details of Sinab and of course Ahmed's bail applications.

• 25:12Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  We'll be back in your feed on Tuesday next week. There is a trial that is not long finished that I think a lot of you will be really interested in. And a lot of you have already been emailing us about, emails to [email protected]. This is the trial of Timothy Luce Moore, who was accused of murdering Marie Vermont. It's a woman that he met when he stayed at an Airbnb. It started in very, very dramatic trials, something I'd never seen before in the first days of this trial. So we'll tell you all about it on Tuesday. The Case of the ISIS Brides is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by James Oaten and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer

• 25:55Speaker 01

  is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Warantra people.