15 Alan Jones | What complainant A alleges happened when he was 17

The fifth and final complainant has started his evidence, alleging that Alan Jones kissed him and touched his bottom when he was 17 years old. In this episode, Isobel Roe explains how Alan Jones assisted the family of Complainant A in the years before this alleged act and allegations brought by a new complainant which left him feeling “disgusting and powerless”. If you have any questions you’d like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118

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• 0:42Speaker 08

  When complainant A was 13, he wrote letters to Alan Jones and the pair started talking. Four years later, he alleges he was kissed without consent by the broadcaster on a visit to his country estate. I'm Stephen Stockwell, this is episode 15 of The Case of Alan Jones.

• 1:01Speaker 05

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape. Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83 year old male arrested this morning.

• 1:14Speaker 06

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:19Speaker 05

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:23Speaker 07

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:29Speaker 08

  The detail of more allegations against Alan Jones from two more complainants has been put before Judge Glenn Walsh as tensions have risen in the courtroom as the judge has questioned the way the evidence has been presented. Throughout all of this is ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe, who joins us on the pod. Welcome Isabel.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  I missed you, Stocky.

• 1:49Speaker 08

  It is really nice to have you back to unpack all of the happenings over the last little while because, you know, there's plenty to go through and, I mean, we have been getting emails as well that people have been missing you.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  That's nice. I'll mentally email them back to say I've missed you too. Yeah, there's been two more complainants that we have had in the last couple of weeks. And one of the complainants has dropped out completely. So we've gone from six complainants in this trial to five.

• 2:19Speaker 08

  Yeah, lots to get into and catch up on in the last couple of weeks. And I know you're not going to like this, but do you think you could wrap it up for us in 60 seconds or so?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Well, it might go a tiny bit longer than 60 seconds. We'll give it our best shot. We've heard from the final and the youngest of all the complainants in this case, a man who was 17 and still at school when he says that Alan Jones kissed him and touched his backside without his consent. He explains his angst at what that meant for the thousands of dollars of help that he was getting from Alan Jones for him and his single mum. We've heard from another man, complainant H, who is an executive who alleges that Alan Jones slid his hand down his back and touched his bottom at an event. We've heard from several witnesses who were called about an event in which a high profile

• 3:10Speaker 02

  athlete, so that's complainant M, alleges he was kissed and none of those people saw anything, much to the disdain of Judge Glenn Walsh. And we've heard from someone who arguably knows Alan Jones the best. His butler of almost two decades has given evidence in court and made some truly bizarre comments to media outside the court as well.

• 3:35Speaker 08

  Thank you Isabel. So much to unpack. I won't note each of the individual points that I'm keen to discuss with you because we'll make our way through all of them in this episode. We need to start with complainant A though. This is the most recent complainant started giving evidence yesterday. As you mentioned, the final complainant to give evidence in this trial, someone who contacted Alan Jones when they were 13 years old. How did they cross paths? Why were they reaching out?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he, he wrote a letter to Alan Jones. This was Alan Jones on the radio, 2GB breakfast host at the time. And he was looking for help, basically. He was a boy of a single mum. He was, said he was struggling, his, his mum was struggling financially. He was worried that their house was going to be repossessed, basically. And his mum had unsecure work. His dad was not paying or paying intermittent child support were his words. And so he writes to Alan Jones and says, basically lays out his situation and says that he needs help.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Alan Jones replies, he reckons maybe days to weeks later, and says that he sounds like a special sort of young man. And he asks this boy a couple of questions, like specifics about what his issues are. And Alan Jones says, I'm happy to help if I can. You know, how much money do you need to finish your house? I'm happy to meet up. They basically become pen pals in a way. He, he writes to Alan Jones back and forth with some serious detail about the financial struggles of his mum. He talks about his school life a little bit. And Alan Jones ends up paying for a chunk of the work on their house, with the court heard more than $86,000.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Alan Jones also supposedly spoke to the Commonwealth Bank, got his contacts at the bank to remortgage this boy's mum's house and wipe $600,000 off their mortgage. And we heard all this because there were these emails, you know, to and from that were read out in court. And Alan Jones is explaining to the boy, you know, what he'd done. He said at one point, you know, just between you and me, I wrote to the Commonwealth Bank and, you know, I put the proposal to them that's been accepted. You don't worry your mother about that detail, but, you know, make sure that you're grateful. And a lot of the replies from the boy were like, yes, I'm extremely grateful, you know,

• 6:14Speaker 02

  thank you so much for your help.

• 6:15Speaker 08

  Yeah, wow. Alan Jones, in the kind of correspondence back and forth with complainant A, seems kind of impressed by complainant A, is that right?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, he writes a lot of emails saying how this boy is really impressive for a 13 year old, essentially. He was 13, 14 in the sort of first couple of years when they were corresponding. And Alan Jones writes things like, you're the most brilliant 13, 14 year old I think I've ever met. You know, you're a wonderful human. And there is a point at which they meet, they first meet when Alan Jones drops by this boy's house, his mother is there. And then at one point, Alan Jones invites him to meet at a pub. And it's just the boy, his mother's not there.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  And afterwards, Alan Jones emails this boy and says, you looked wonderful and fresh and bright. I can't believe you're 14 years of age. And complainant A replied in bio email and said that he loved having lunch with him.

• 7:20Speaker 08

  Isabel, it sounds like Alan Jones is offering, you know, quite a substantial amount of support to complainant A. I mean, does that continue?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  It continues for some years. Two years after this boy initially wrote to Alan Jones. He hadn't heard from the boy in a couple of months and Alan Jones emails him and says, you know, I haven't heard from you in a bit. I hope you understand this is all very expensive work. Happy to foot the bill, Alan Jones says, but I'd appreciate an update. And then A responds and says, oh my goodness, Alan, I apologize. I truly have been trying not to bother you. And he was asked, why were you trying not to bother Alan Jones? And he said, well, because I'd previously been sending him all these emails, you know, with these problems that I had. I was trying not to keep bothering him with every problem.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And then there's more emails presented from later on where Alan Jones says, you know, I'm, I'm not a mobile bank. It's, it's getting to be a lot of money now for the renovations on this home. And complainant A writes back and says, you know, could my mother and I do a payment plan? Like, you know, we could do some repayments. And Alan Jones sort of rebuffs that and says, no, no, no, don't worry. You know, I'm always happy to help, but just, you know, remember that this is, you know, that this is a lot of money and that this is a great thing that's happened to you. And, you know, A's response is always like, you know, yes, thank you so much. You know, my mother and I would never take anything for granted.

• 8:58Speaker 08

  Hmm, okay. Now, complainant A's allegation against Alan Jones comes from a visit to Fitzroy Falls a couple of years later, when complainant A is 17. Fitzroy Falls is Alan Jones's kind of country estate. What does complainant A allege happened?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he goes to Fitzroy Falls. Basically, he says that Alan Jones first invites him, in fact, when he's 15, in year 10. And he doesn't go, you know, for whatever reason, he's busy with school, but he does end up going between year 11 and 12 school holidays. He's 17. He goes and he stays two nights and it's just him, it's not his mum.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  He says that there's a dinner one night at Fitzroy Falls. There's another, uh, a male couple who's invited. Everyone has dinner. They watch a movie, these two men leave. And then he says, as they are walking down the hallway, basically, A. Um, says he's about to go back to his bedroom. Uh, and he said, he leant into Alan Jones and leaned in to give him a hug, to thank him for a lovely weekend, to express his gratitude for everything that he had done for this man and, um, and his mum. And, uh, then A tells the court, Mr. Jones kissed me and he put his tongue inside of

• 10:24Speaker 02

  my mouth and then I froze, which is always my response. And then he was asked, where did he kiss you? And he said, it was on the mouth. Uh, was his mouth open or closed? It was open. Where did he put his tongue inside of my mouth? Uh, he said it lasted maybe for about 30 seconds. He also says while the kiss was happening, he alleges Alan Jones puts his hand on the complainant's backside. And then it was at that point that complainer A says, I recoiled, I stepped away. Uh, I said, that's enough, Alan. And I looked up at him and said, good night to his face. And he was asked if Alan Jones did anything in response.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  And he said he had this grin on his face. Uh, and then I turned around and went into my room. And he was asked what sort of grin? And A said, it made me very uncomfortable. A then gives evidence, he went into his bathroom next to his room at Fitzroy Falls. He went in there with a loofah sponge. I just soaped it and scrubbed my mouth as much as I could. And he was asked for why he did that. And he said, I felt violated and gross. Uh, and then he said he didn't want to have a shower because he felt vulnerable. If you're in the shower that you're naked. Uh, and so he then just got into bed and he said he didn't think he would be able to sleep, but he did.

• 11:46Speaker 08

  Okay. Um, did he tell anyone?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  He did, um, not immediately, but he, he says that he comes home and, um, there was some discussion with his mother about why he wasn't sort of sleeping particularly well or why he seemed distracted. And he said to his mother, I'll write you a note. Um, and so a few days later, he says he writes his mother a note. Uh, and he explains a little bit about what happens. He doesn't go into explicit detail. He says to his mother, um, that I don't want you to guess what happened. I'm just going to tell you this much, basically. And he actually had the note. He ended up handing it to police. So he read it out in court when it was given back to him to read.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Um, and the note said, uh, something along the lines of, you know, something happened at Fitzroy Falls. Someone did something they shouldn't have. The reason I don't go to sleep is I get flashbacks in the day. Uh, and he says to his mother, whilst I was physically strong enough to prevent what happened from happening, it showed me the power of money. And the prosecution said, what did you mean when you wrote that in, in the, um, in the note, power of money? And he said, I meant that, you know, whilst I wasn't a child, uh, and I, you know, the physical size of me wasn't the issue, that I was worried that there was consequences of me stopping, uh, what had happened because of the power of money, uh, that he, Alan

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Jones, would cease helping us. That was what he told the court when he was asked about that.

• 13:20Speaker 08

  This complainant, complainant A, is 17 at the time of this alleged kissing by Alan Jones at Fitzroy Falls. Does that change the charge that Alan Jones is facing? Is he a minor? What, what happens there?

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's not a minor. Um, the age of consent is 16, so he, um, is not a minor for the purposes of this trial and of that charge. Um, but obviously under 18 and, and the youngest, um, complainant in this case.

• 13:49Speaker 08

  Yeah. Thank you, Isabel. Uh, appreciate the clarification there. Um, saves probably a couple of emails to the caselove at abc.net.au. But of course, if you have other emails, please get in touch with any of the questions you've got, um, for both myself and Isabel around this. Uh, now we do, we will have more evidence from complainant A over the coming days as well. He's only just started giving evidence, so, um, there's much more to come from that and we'll update you when we have more on it. But as well as complainant A, Isabel, we've also heard from complainant H. Now, this is someone who is an executive. Um, what does he alleging happened?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's one charge in relation to, um, this man. Uh, what he says is that he had just met Alan Jones at an event. Um, they had no history. Uh, Alan Jones was at the same, you know, dinner as him essentially. Uh, and he told the court that he was standing in a group of other people, like four or five men. Uh, he said, we were standing in the corner of the room, talking to two other men and Mr. Jones's hand, uh, he placed his hand on the top of my back and went slowly down my back and then rested it on my bottom. Uh, now he was asked what he did. He said he didn't say anything.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Uh, he said he didn't want to cause a scene, uh, and that he didn't want to ruin the night, basically, by saying anything about it. Uh, he was asked if he thought that the other people in the group standing with them saw it. And he says that he doesn't think that they did, or he doesn't know if they did. Um, he says that he tells, uh, his, two of his colleagues, two female colleagues, uh, afterwards, and, um, one of them, he says he told on the night, basically as they were walking out. Uh, and he said to the court that he told her that I, he said, I, I felt disgusting and powerless. And that's really the first time I've understood what women have been going through for all these years.

• 15:54Speaker 08

  Yeah. Um, yeah, interesting kind of way that's unfolded for, uh, that complainant. Um, I mean, how was the cross-examination of this witness? What did Gabriel Bashir, Alan Jones's barrister, focus on there?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, she, uh, really took him to emails that he sent to, um, Alan Jones after this event where he, uh, sort of thanks Alan Jones for coming, um, said that he was impressed, uh, with him, uh, said that he would like to see him at future similar events. And some of those emails were only a few days after this alleged incident happened. So Gabriel Bashir, uh, you know, saying, why did you send these emails? Thanking someone who you allege, you know, inappropriately touched you. Um, Gabriel Bashir also put to H that he had previously expressed, um, contrary political

• 16:51Speaker 02

  views to Alan Jones, uh, and was not a fan of Alan Jones. In fact, had called him a pig at one point. And H agreed with that. He said, yes, he had called Alan Jones that. Um, but he insisted that that was irrelevant and that the assault still occurred.

• 17:08Speaker 08

  Yeah, okay. Um, last time we spoke, we were still working through the, um, the evidence of complainant M, who's a high-profile sports person who alleges Alan Jones, uh, leant in and kissed him at an event and also at Alan Jones's, um, Macquarie Street apartment in Sydney. Um, we hadn't quite finished his cross-examination. We were kind of working our way through that. Was there anything significant that popped up at the, the end of that cross-examination?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, um, casting our mind back, this is a complainant who, um, is a high-profile athlete alleges that he was kissed twice, uh, once at the Macquarie Street apartment and once at an event, a public event with lots of other people.

• 17:51Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Um, the defence was asking, uh, in particular about the timing, uh, of those two alleged kisses. Uh, they were, in terms of the second kiss, asking, uh, whether complainant M would agree that Alan Jones, they say, was in COVID isolation, uh, at the time that this happened. Um, pointing out that the day that complainant M ended up settling on is the day that he thought the second, uh, kiss allegedly happened in Macquarie Street. And Gabriel Bashir said, I suggest you don't know when you saw Alan Jones at Macquarie Street.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  And M said, I'm not a hundred percent sure of the date. So they sort of landed on M's story was that he, you know, he absolutely remembered that this kiss allegedly happened. He did admit that the dates may have been a bit off in the end.

• 18:52Speaker 08

  Someone we've spoken about a bit in passing a few times as they've come up in evidence is someone who knows Alan Jones incredibly well. Uh, this is his butler, who worked at Alan Jones's Macquarie Street apartment, also a couple of other places as well, it sounds like. Uh, what, what did he talk about?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Oh, this was, um, this was the day, this was an odd day, stocky. Um, this is David Allen, uh, Alan Jones's butler. Um, he is every bit the British butler. Uh, he says he basically started working for Alan Jones, making sandwiches. He said he shined the shoes and cleaned the loos. He cooked for guests for dinner. Um, this was a man that basically kept Alan Jones's Macquarie Street apartment going while Alan Jones, he said, worked, you know, insane hours. He said he had an extraordinarily brutal regime of work hours, a terrifying amount of hours.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  He said, uh, this butler said he'd design Alan Jones's shirts, he'd buy the fabric for his suits, uh, while Alan Jones was trying to exist on two and a half hours sleep a day. He says he, you know, he does his breakfast show, he comes home, he entertains people, he might have something on in the evening. The guests eventually leave, he goes to sleep for two and a half hours, he gets up, he does it all again. Um, he was asked about how Alan Jones would greet and who he would have in his apartment. Um, and he gave evidence that there were a lot of young male athletes in particular, he said musicians as well, who would come through the doors over the years, that Alan

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Jones would entertain any number of, of young men, uh, and athletes in particular. Um, and he was asked how he greeted them. Um, this man, the butler, said, uh, oh, with a hug, a bit of a slap on the bottom, hello champion. And as soon as he said that, he said, oh, probably not the best thing to say today, is it? And sort of backtracked a bit on the bottom slapping thing. And then he was asked again, you know, how did they greet this specific complainant, complainant M? And he said, oh, he said, hello, champion. Um. He, yeah, he was quite animated in his talking and very descriptive of the sort

• 21:16Speaker 02

  of life he led with Alan Jones. He said he ironed Alan Jones's underwear. He talked about buying the flowers at the market that we've heard from complainant M, that complainant M received for a number of months, even a years. And he was, of course, asked whether he saw anything inappropriate. And he said he didn't ever see anything inappropriate.

• 21:43Speaker 08

  Yep, okay. From what we've heard about this butler, you know, this is an English man who's worked in this area for a very, very long time. Does he sound how I think he sounds?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yes, he does. He sounds exactly how you think he sounds. If you imagine a British butler, you would be correct. But you don't need to wonder too much, Stocky, because he actually came out of court and spoke to the media. And we asked him what the job was like.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  It's exciting, exhilarating. Highs and lows.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  And you never saw anything inappropriate?

• 22:21Speaker 03

  I don't see, I never see anything. I don't hear anything. I don't see anything. I don't say anything.

• 22:27Speaker 08

  You mentioned how he greeted people with a slap on the bum and a hug.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Well, a man as good looking as you, who wouldn't slap you? Oh, gosh.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  So that was David Allen, Alan Jones's butler of almost 20 years, speaking to media outside court.

• 22:42Speaker 08

  Wonderful question you've asked there, Isabel. You see your arm in the video there, watching on YouTube or ABC Listen, the video episodes, you can, you can see, would have seen that unfold. I'm not sure about the choice of words to the other reporter, though. We have lost a complainant, as you mentioned, Isabel. One complainant has pulled out. What has happened there? How did this unfold?

• 23:07Speaker 02

  This was honestly dropped in as an afterthought. At the end of the day, it took everyone by surprise. Judge Glenn Walsh was going through the witness list, which he's been asking for, for this entire trial and has finally received. And he said, I've noticed that someone's not on there. And the Crown says, oh, yes, complainant F, you know, the person who is complainant F has, has dropped out, that sequence, we're not pursuing anymore. And all the journalists were like, what? Completely out of the blue. So, yeah, it was one of the charges that was dropped or not pursued. And that was one charge relating to one person, complainant F. This was someone who had alleged Alan Jones touched him at

• 23:52Speaker 02

  a public event. He was a younger reporter. That is all we know about it because it was read out in the opening statements. And this, that was part of the wording of the charge, that he was touched. And that's now gone. So we won't be hearing from complainant F.

• 24:09Speaker 08

  Do we know why they've dropped out?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  No. There was no explanation at all. I would only be speculating. So I don't know if it was their decision or if it was the prosecution's decision. I have no idea.

• 24:23Speaker 08

  Yeah, okay. Thank you, Isabel. Such a strange way to find out as well, just in a kind of procedural. Afterthought. Yeah. And I mean, this is one of the interesting things about covering courts. It's, you know, prosecution doesn't need to tell the media anything. It's what happens in court.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  No, that's right.

• 24:40Speaker 08

  What we can report.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  If you had not been listening for the three minutes at the end of that day, you would have missed that entire thing.

• 24:45Speaker 08

  Yeah. And we're lucky we've got you there, you know, dialed in, paying attention to every single word, because that is something I have noticed in, in sort of court reporting is that, you know, nothing is said with any sort of emphasis sometimes. It's all this sort of, you know, equal monotone. And if you're not paying attention, those things can just swing straight past. So appreciate your keen ears picking that up for us on the case of Isabel. We are getting plenty of emails to [email protected] about the case of Alan Jones. A lot of them. When is the next episode of the case of Alan Jones? And here you are. This is the next episode of the case of Alan Jones. But I've got one here from Rebecca, who has questions about the messages between Alan Jones and some of the complainants. Now, we've seen lots of different messages from Alan Jones to

• 25:30Speaker 08

  complainants over time. Lots of conversation about the content of those messages, if they are appropriate, all of those things. Rebecca's wondering if we've seen any messages from any other people that Alan Jones had close relationships with to show a difference? Or does the defence accept that they were inappropriate?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  No, we have not been shown any other messages between Alan Jones and anyone else. But the defence has said a lot of the time in this trial that this is how Alan Jones speaks. They don't say that the messages are inappropriate, just that he was a generous sort of loving person who uses this language, like big hugs and lots of love and lots of X's, which he uses frequently. And we have seen him use to many of the complainants in this case. In the case of the more explicit texts, you know, mentions of genitalia, that sort of thing, there's no comment from the defence on whether that's appropriate or

• 26:28Speaker 02

  not. But there's no dispute that they happened. And the defence has stressed the times where they sort of see the complainants responding in a sort of similarish tone, or going along with the messages, as they say.

• 26:44Speaker 08

  Yeah, okay. Thank you, Isabel. Wonderful question as well, Rebecca. Thank you for emailing [email protected]. Another one here, Isabel, from Gareth. Gareth is watching the news in the evening. And he's noticed that we see video of Alan Jones and his entourage entering and leaving at the beginning and the end of each day, but not of the complainants. How do they get in? Do they have a secret entrance?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  They do actually have a secret entrance. That is not why we're not filming them. We wouldn't film them anyway. As you know, we can't identify them, even if they walked in the front door, we wouldn't film them. We wouldn't even want their likeness in our internal systems. But they do have a secret entrance. Complainants only are able to go into the court from elsewhere. I won't give it away. I only worked it out not so long ago myself, so I won't act smart about it. But they are helped to come in and out of court so that they remain anonymous and the media don't go chasing after them. That's just the deal.

• 27:50Speaker 08

  Yeah. Thank you, Isabel. Thank you, Gareth. Great question. I wasn't expecting that answer, actually. I was, I thought that was a bit of an odd one to throw at us. But there we go. There is a secret entrance. So this is why the case of inbox is such a wonderful resource for us here at the pod. If you have a question yourself, if you've got a thought, if there's a gap in this case that's stopping you from engaging in it in the way that you would like, please get in touch, [email protected]. Really do appreciate hearing from each and every one of you. Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 28:21Speaker 02

  We are going to keep hearing from complainant A. They have not finished their evidence in chief. Then we will hear the cross examination of A. Then that's the last complainant. And so after that, we will start to hear from police witnesses, of which there could be many. We will also hear at some point from the journalist Kate McLemont. We understand she's going to be called in this case as well. She's been a pretty key part of a lot of the stories of, of a lot of the complainants and others. So, yeah, there's, there's more to come, despite the fact that we have almost finished the complainants in this trial.

• 29:05Speaker 08

  Yep. Thank you, Isabel. Plenty more to get into on the case of Alan Jones. I wouldn't be surprised if we're back in your feed with another episode next week to wrap up the evidence of complainant A and cross examination and other things you may hear about that. But get yourself around ABC Listen, because if there is an episode, it's going to pop up there before it pops up anywhere else. If you are using a different podcast platform, make sure you leave us a rating and review as well. Makes it much easier for people to find us. And if you're enjoying this, hopefully other, other people can enjoy it as well. And I'll be back in your feed tomorrow with an episode of the case of Jessie and Luke.

• 29:45Speaker 08

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Miller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're Unseri people.