Running a Business, Household, and Brand—Can You Really Do It All?

As high-achieving women, we often pressure ourselves to be perfect in every area of our lives, including motherhood. But what if being the perfect parent isn’t the goal? In this episode, conscious parenting founder Dr. Shefali joins Natalie to discuss her two new books, Raising Conscious Daughters and Raising Conscious Sons. She dives into the value of maternal energy in early childhood and how to balance career growth with focused, present parenting. She also explains why you should welcome your child’s boredom, anger, and urge to control others during play. Finally, she and Natalie break down the trauma and self-limiting beliefs quietly fueling high performers and how to unlearn them. In this episode, Natalie and Dr. Shefali will discuss: (01:10) The Cost of Taking on Masculine Energy to Scale (05:15) Identifying Underlying Trauma Responses in Our Ambition (11:14) The Priceless Value of Maternal Energy for Young Children (15:49) Why Your Child's Anger Toward You is a Green Flag (20:03) Controlling Your Child's Conditions Instead of Behavior (23:16) Balancing Ego and Mindfulness as High Performers (27:02) Understanding Why Children Play and How to Engage (32:25) Teaching Your Children to Be Bored (40:54) Antidotes to Common Problems of High-Performing Women (49:49) How to Teach Your Children to Prioritize Their Needs (53:38) Advice for Women Trying to Do It All Dr. Shefali is a New York Times bestselling author and the founder of the revolutionary Conscious Parenting movement, which has transformed the ways in which the world parents their children. She integrates Western psychology and Eastern philosophy to help you heal your past, release your insecurities, and step into your most authentic and empowered self. She is the CEO of the Conscious Parenting and Life Coaching Institute, a globally recognized certification program training coaches in conscious parenting, emotional intelligence, and mindful living that has impacted thousands of families across more than 50 countries. Sponsored By: Fora Travel - Visit⁠ foratravel.com/bossbabe⁠⁠ to learn how to turn your love of trip planning into a business. FreshBooks - Get FreshBooks for less than $3 a month for your first four months at FreshBooks.com/podcast. Faire - Sign up today and get 50% off your first wholesale order, up to $100 at faire.com/bossbabe. AG1 - Save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkAG1.com/bossbabe. Hostinger - Go to Hostinger.com/bossbabe and use code BOSSBABE for 10% off. Resources Mentioned: ⁠Dr. Shefali’s Book, Raising Conscious Sons⁠ ⁠Dr. Shefali’s Book, Raising Conscious Daughters⁠ ⁠Dr. Shefali and her daughter, Maia, on the Parenting & You podcast⁠ Connect with Dr. Shefali: ⁠Website⁠ ⁠TikTok⁠ ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠YouTube⁠ Connect with Natalie: ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠LinkedIn⁠ ⁠Website⁠ ⁠YouTube⁠ ⁠Natalie’s Book, The Freedom-Based Business Method⁠ conscious parenting, gentle parenting, parenting advice, mom burnout, work life balance, Dr. Shefali, Natalie Ellis, parenting tips, motherhood, working moms, parenting boundaries, conscious motherhood, gentle parenting tips, parenting burnout, parenting mindset, raising children, child development, mom guilt, work life balance for moms, parenting podcast, conscious parent, parenting expert, emotional regulation, healthy boundaries, modern parenting, parenting help

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Okay, before we start, I want to shout out a few brands I genuinely love that make this podcast possible. If business finances aren't your first language, FreshBooks is 90% off right now, under $3 a month for four months at freshbooks.com/bossbabe. If you run a shop, FAIRE is how you stock unique, high-quality products. Get 50% off your first wholesale order, up to $100, at F-A-I-R-E.com/bossbabe. Hosting at AI will build your website in less than a day. No coding, designer, or developer needed. Go to hostinger.com/bossbabe and use code BOSSBABE for 10% off now. AG1 is a daily supplement

• 0:41Speaker 00

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• 0:56Speaker 01

  Most statistics will show now that girls as young as eight and 10 are dieting and wanting different bodies. I mean, that's how sick we are. Despite being the most connected, despite having indulgences that my generation, we started this, could only dream of, what we've done is actually made our children sicker. Why? Because we've given them things, and we've given them access, and we've given them wealth, and we've given them opportunity from the outside, but we haven't taken care of the inside. And the inside only can be taken care of by parental attunement, presence, and connection. And if you don't have this,

• 1:40Speaker 01

  the child will grow up absolutely floundering and lost.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  Welcome to the show. This is a long time coming. I'm really excited.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  I am super excited.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Where I want to dive in is I feel like a lot of women in my age demographic, millennial women, are going through a massive identity and career crisis. And the ones that I'm speaking to particularly, they have had every achievement under the book. They've grown the business, they've done the thing, maybe they've recently become a mom in the last few years, and they, for the first time in their lives, are slowing down to ask themselves, do I actually want any of this that I've built? What do you say to the woman in that space, and why does that happen?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  I think, because I'm the generation before, the Gen X's, I saw this coming in your generation, and it was almost like a whiplash to breaking free of any stereotypes, and women feeling like they wanted to shatter the ceiling at all costs, which means they were reaching for the stars, which also means that they were stepping into the lane of men, you know? And I want to be a boss babe, or I want to own my own company and be a CEO and travel the world, and I'm going to put off motherhood, and I'm going to put off family. And it was empowering, but because as anything in reaction, and I think it's deeply subconscious, and many women in your generation will say, no, I wasn't doing

• 3:06Speaker 01

  it to step into the man's lane, but everything is a pendulum, you know? So in doing that, it wasn't out of a true feminine empowerment, it was more of taking on a masculine energy. And no problem, masculine energy is beautiful, we all have pieces of it, but I think when it's not authentic, you know, it feels then very non-sustainable, it feels very ephemeral. And I think then, you've done the business, you've checked, checked, checked, you're back in where you were, you would have been in your twenties without that, which is, who am I really? And how can I integrate all of me and not give up parts of me? Because

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I think in that masculine embodiment, women have had to cut away from their maternal, from their feminine. And doesn't mean that they have to be a mother, but there's beauty in that, from the feminine side. Not that they have to be a mother, but there's beauty in occupying your maternal energy as well. But I think many women cut that on the side to embody this kind of more, you know, CEO mentality, but there was a loss. And so then they come back around, and they're like, who am I now? So it's a different circuitous path, but we're all trying to answer the question, how can I be my most deepest authentic self without feeling I have to trade something? But let me tell you, there are times in our

• 4:33Speaker 01

  lives where we have to prioritize, not trade. Like you're a young mother now, of very young children, you will have to maybe delay some things, not look at it as a sacrifice, but look at it as a reprioritization. And there's beauty in prioritizing things and telling yourself, I'll do that after 10 years. You know, we can't do it all. And I think your generation of women had the illusion that they could do it all. You can do it all, but not all at the same time.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  I think you're so right in that. I think one blessing I had is that I had a very profitable trauma response. So I grew up without that, you know, safety, without the financial safety, without that stability, and I really wanted that control. So I started a business very young. I was driving, I was pushing, I was hustling very young, but which also meant I had kids young too. I got pregnant with my first when I was 29, which for now is pretty young, but it all felt authentic to me. But then when I became a mom that first time around, I was brought to my knees, the depths of postpartum, identity crisis, everything, even though I would say my entire twenties, it felt very authentic. Now I can see there was a bit of a trauma response under it, but it really worked for me because

• 5:49Speaker 00

  it built an incredible life. So how do we wrestle with that? That, you know, it does serve us to an extent, but then we often have this huge juxtaposition in that we at some point do have to reckon with, have I actually put my identity on the back burner to go at this thing?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yes. And what you're saying is so true, because most of us achieve high, high, high heights out of some hunger. And that hunger could come from a hunger for money, a hunger for validation. But when we overdo something, even if you overdo motherhood and decide to have seven children, it will be coming from some scarcity. Either you want more children to be validated in your religious affiliation, because you feel otherwise I will be left out, or you're having more children because you feel like it's an identity status, or you're making millions and millions and millions of dollars, which we don't really need, out of a desire to have approval or worth in society. So any extreme identity

• 6:50Speaker 01

  that we create is coming from a diseased, lack-based scarcity in ourself. Too much drinking, too many children, too many cars, too many millions. It looks amazing on paper because our culture may adulate extreme wealth, but it's a diseased culture that adulates extreme wealth. So you went, ooh, you were like, I grew up in poverty, I didn't have control over my finances and my belongings, I want supreme control. So your pendulum swung to wanting to acquire extreme control and wealth, that is coming from a scarcity mindset, from

• 7:29Speaker 01

  inner lack of worth. So the question is, how do we create a life that has things, but is not out of this acute scarcity and hunger, so the pendulum doesn't go an extreme way? And most of us are very uncomfortable, living a middle-of-the-bell curve, ordinary life. To us, ordinary and average feels anathema, a curse, because culture has adulated extreme. But it's a disease. Actually, the middle, the Buddha taught, the middle path is the most beautiful, because there you have enough that you feel worthy, but you don't have

• 8:09Speaker 01

  so much which is out of lack. And it's hard for people to strike that balance of that worth out of being ordinary and saying, today I'm going to have a healthy, ordinary day, right? That feels unhealthy. Health in this culture has come to mean extreme hustling, extreme doing, extreme achieving. We don't realize what a trauma response, what a diseased state that needs to do, do, do, and we're raising our children like that. So from three years old, children have become doers. And children are not meant to be doers. Children are the epitome of being, and we need to actually learn from them how to live in the

• 8:50Speaker 01

  present moment, how to be. But we're so toxic, and we're so twisted, that we're making them be sick like us, when they embody the health that we need to emulate. But we're making them become sick like us. So by nine years old, they're on medication, they're ADHD, they're anxiety, they're bulimic. Most statistics will show now that girls as young as eight and 10 are dieting and wanting different bodies. I mean, that's how sick we are.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  So how do we not do that?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I've written my two new books, Raising Conscious Daughters and Raising Conscious Sons, because I could see that despite being the most connected, despite having indulgences that my generation, we started this, could only dream of, what we've done is actually made our children sicker. Why? Because we've given them things and we've given them access and we've given them wealth and we've given them opportunity from the outside, but we haven't taken care of the inside. And the inside only can be taken care of by parental attunement, presence and connection. And if you don't have this, the child will grow up absolutely floundering and lost.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  And that's what's happening. Parents who are distracted, parents who are hustling, parents who have gotten on the bandwagon that they need to have more to be more. Those parents are so unanchored that children are growing up absolutely rootless, looking for inner wealth. But instead, they've been told to have outer wealth.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  So as parents who are listening, who are ambitious, who are driven, how can they parent in a way that, you know, they're still honoring their own ambition and they're still doing things that lights them up, but they are parenting in a way that's really present and nurturing that inner?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  How are they gonna do it?

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  It's impossible. What did you do? You took a year off. You slowed down. You moved to a different place where you could have a different life. You made a trade off. So I will never say you can do it all. You can do it all, but not at the same time. Especially because we don't live in a village. We don't live in a community. So you don't have your aunties and your grandmas to help you. So you are on 24/7. And the first thing we need to do if we want to have thriving careers is you have to build a community. If you don't want to be there, you have to call in your aunties, your sisters, your village. Create a village. You know, put all your business acumen to create a really good village.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Then you can step out and work 24/7 because you have people taking care of your children. But children need community. Children need connection. Children need presence, yours or another maternal energy. They need maternal energy. And I say this not because paternal energy is bad, but in the early years, there's something about maternalism, which is warmth, softness, safety, comfort. You know, the flesh connection that typically maternal people give. Now, a man could embody maternal energy, but typically, you know, a female embodies it. But I'm not against men being that maternal energy. What do men bring? You know, what does masculine energy bring?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Masculine energy a little later, when they're four, five, six, that is so important because they teach risk-taking. They teach competence and achievement and going out. Right? But in the early years, young children and toddlers need to come in. They need to feel very contained and safe. Because they're so little, the world feels very scary. So they need the bosom. They need that lap.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Your lap, your sister's lap, your grandmother's lap. It's okay. And then after four and five, when they're ready to go out into the world, masculine energy is really powerful.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you think it's damaging to have moms working outside of the home from an early age?

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Again, if the actual biological mother is not there, it's okay. But there needs to be a surrogate presence of consistent maternal energy. It could be the best neighbor who's there all the time. Doesn't matter who it is. Of course, ideally, the mother, the primary attachment figure is important. But many, you know, feminists may hear this and think I'm not feminist or think that I'm taking women back or I'm making them feel guilty. I'm not. I am a super high achieving woman, super achieving. I mean, you leave me alone for five minutes, I'll come out with a new business idea. But I really reined that in for the first 10 years of my child's life.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And I did things, but after I was primarily a mother. Because for me, that was my adventure. I looked at it as that was my blessing. I wanted to learn how to be. I wanted to slow down. Like, that was my challenge. So I didn't look at it as a compensation or sacrifice. I looked at it as spiritual evolution. I want to spend my 30s slowing down. I wanted to re-enter my body. I wanted to not be attached to labels and externals. I looked at it as spiritual growth so that in my 40s, I could emerge really grounded. I actually used my child to keep me grounded in my 30s. And I know it sounds counterintuitive

• 14:24Speaker 01

  because the 30s are the age where you go out there, for men perhaps. But for me, it was really important to come back into my feminine power. So I felt I was being the most feminist because I was honoring my feminine energy. So I didn't look at it as a negative thing. But many feminists look at it as a negative thing.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Do you think, where you're saying, if it's not the mom and it's a different maternal attachment figure, do you think the mom working outside of the home from a young age, when the kids are a young age, affects the attachment between the mom and the kids?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Again, it depends what she does when she comes home.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  So if she comes home and she's fully present, there is a tremendous power of that attachment. So after my daughter was three and four, I also had to go out of the home. So I don't knock it at all. I went out of the home. I came back at 5:00, 5:30. But then I turned it on and I was on for four hours. That's a lot.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  You know, I was on two hours before I left. I was on for four hours. And I never plagued myself with guilt. When I was gone, I was gone. But I had a community. I had an amazing nanny. I had friends who helped me. My mother came. My daughter was never devoid of maternal attention and care.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  I had a present ex-husband who was there for the male part, for the masculine part. So because I had a village enough, I never plagued myself with guilt. So build a village. If you're so good at building a business, your first business is to build a village.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  I really, really love that. And your daughter, she's 23 now. And it's such a blessing to be able to talk to really high achieving moms who have older kids.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  Because I find it really tough to take parenting advice from moms with very young kids. Because who knows how your kids will turn, how your attachment will turn out with them. So for you now, your daughter's 23. What's your relationship with her like? And what's her reflection on you as a high achiever? How does she feel about it all?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that question. So not only do I have personal experience, you know, I coach hundreds and hundreds of parents. I have a coaching institute. So I see the power of what I teach. And I can tell you, what I teach has never failed. I've taught fathers how to become conscious. They come into my coaching institute to become better parents and to become coaches. Then they do it as a side gig. So I have seen firsthand that my daughter is so resilient despite going through a divorce, where she shook and earthquakes occurred in her psyche. And she was angry with me for a good two years. Despite her anger at me,

• 17:12Speaker 01

  it came because of safety. She could express it. And if anyone wants to watch her being angry with me, I taped a podcast of her. It's on YouTube right now. And she looks angry with me. It was when she was angry. But I didn't mind.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Because it was so apparent that she felt safe to express it, that she felt connected to tell me straight, "Mom, I'm so angry with you." That's the power of conscious parenting. It's not to have sprinkles and glitter and, you know, rainbows. It is to have an authentic relationship where you can struggle, but you come home. She could tell me straight. She came to me to tell me she's angry. She didn't go to AI. She didn't go to drugs. She didn't go to her best friend. I'm like, can you please go to your best friend? Can you drink a little bit? Can you have some more sex? But she came straight home to me because that is the power of a deep connected relationship. It's not that you'll never have conflict. It's where do you go when you have conflict? Do you go to the source?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Or do you go outside? And the fact that your partner, your child, your best friend comes to you? That's what we're trying to do. Come back to the source. Let's work it out here. And that's what we don't do. Right? You run away, she runs away, you go to alcohol, you leave the country because the home is too unsafe. So what I teach parents to become more than anything is not perfect, is not flawless, is to become so safe for your children that they will come to you. That's what you want. So be be effed up. That's not the point. Children need to see you eff up. Children need to see you ordinary. That is the point of conscious parenting. Can you be without ego?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  That your child knows that you're a full human being. Sometimes my daughter is so obnoxiously rude to me in public. Like she'd be like, and who asked you? Like the other day she said to me, and who asked you? And we were in the aisle of Whole Foods, okay? And I noticed somebody looking and I immediately projected that they were looking at me as if I'm the conscious parenting expert and they knew who I was. And then I'm projecting that they're thinking what a loser I am. Then I'm projecting them thinking that she talks so rudely that they're thinking I have no control. I'm thinking all these things as a conscious parenting expert and I tell people not to think. So all she said was, and who asked you? So I got so upset. I left that aisle. I went to another aisle and then I texted her.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  That was so disrespected. Look, as the conscious parenting expert, I felt so personally attacked only because that woman heard. If nobody heard me, I wouldn't care.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And then I realized that I was caught in my ego. And then she said, Mom, I didn't mean it like that. Like, what are you talking about? I didn't, I didn't have a tone, like she didn't even know. And for me, it was she did it purposely. She was so defined. She was purposely being mean. This is what we do and I still do it. So then I told her, oh, okay, I'm so sorry. I got caught up in my ego. She was like, yeah, Mom, you're taking it so seriously. But she was able to see me be a human being.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, I felt so disrespected. She said, I'm so sorry, but I didn't mean it. So they don't need us to be perfect. They need us to be honest, transparent and accountable.

• 20:30Speaker 00

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• 21:55Speaker 00

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• 23:21Speaker 00

  which now that I'm saying it out loud, and maybe I shouldn't do that. Like she really doesn't like to eat her dinner or like to, you know, eat meals. And I will often say, well, if you don't eat, you can't have dessert. And she wants to have dessert every single day. Do you think that's the wrong framing? How do I do this better?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  So the reason you brought up the bulimia, just for people who are listening, they must be like, what, what does she, what does she mean? It's a story I tell in the, in the book where I had an eating disorder because I was putting so much pressure on myself to look a certain way. So every woman can relate to that. So a lot of our messaging around food is again, coming from natural anxiety. We all want our children to have vitamins and their greens and not have dessert, but also coming from our conditioned anxiety around looking a certain way or of us feeling we're not a good parent if we don't feed our children. So if your daughter only wants to have dessert, however, why is there dessert at home? Right?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Don't put, don't keep the dessert at home. So then it's not even a battle. Okay? So you're not in conflict about the ice cream. Don't have the ice cream at home. Just stop, stop getting junk food at home.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Well, she just likes to have a slice of chocolate after every, at every night. And I'm like, I don't mind that, but I want you to eat your dinner.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the other, so there are two things you're mixing, you're mixing into one issue. If she doesn't want to eat food, I would actually use that to help her, to honor her body. So instead of forcing her to eat the food, you tell her, did you check in with your body? Did your body say it's hungry? Oh, your body said it's full? I want to honor your boundary. I want to honor your voice. Because let me tell you, if we're hungry, she will find something to eat.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  What if she says, I check in with my body and I don't like that food, even though I know she does?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can tell you that at some point, if she's hungry, she will eat something.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  So your job is not to force her to eat or to eat at a particular time.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Just keep it there for her to eat whenever she wants. Don't make it about dinnertime because that's not fair. Right? I'm never hungry at seven in the evening.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Or nine in the evening. I'm only hungry 4:30 to 5:00 PM. So my friends make fun of me, like who eats dinner at 4:35? I go, my body. So I'm honoring my body. So in the same way, you want to honor, and for everyone hearing, please honor your child's natural rhythms. However, don't have options available that you will fight about. Just don't have it. So if you have chocolate, have dark chocolate or with sea salt or have something that works for you.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  So just remove, I always say, instead of controlling your child directly, control the conditions around them. You know? So if you don't, like for example, if you don't like them on the screens, just have limited wifi and just turn off the wifi. You create the conditions, you see? Stop controlling the child, start controlling the conditions that you can control.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so coming back to something you said about living an ordinary life. I definitely had a visceral reaction to that. So I'm like, I don't want to live an ordinary life. I'm super high achieving. I love to be growing personally, professionally, all the things. And as you're saying it, I can already feel that that's actually a pretty good thing to do.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It's healthy.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  To, yeah, to, to have ordinary and to not feel like you need to be swinging on both pendulums. But for someone who is listening that winces at the thought of that, can you talk a little bit more about what that actually looks like? Because like you said yourself, you're a high achieving woman, like massively high achieving.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  So let's look at your children right now. They're how old?

• 27:04Speaker 00

  Four and 11 months.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Now, do you think they're thinking that they need to be on Broadway? Do you think they're thinking I need to win an Olympic gold?

• 27:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Right? What are they showing? They're showing utter satisfaction. Of course they have tantrums, but then they get over the tantrum.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  And tantrums are just their way of regulating their emotions. They don't know how to do it with words or with calmness. So they are perfectly content as they are, aren't they? Do they look in the mirror and say, oh my goodness, I need better skin? Or my pores are showing? Or can I have better hair? They are not coming with any judgment about who they are. They're so unselfconscious, actually. They learn to be self-conscious because of what we tell them. Oh, you're so pretty or, oh, your fingers are so beautiful. They never even looked at their fingers. So they are complete and whole as they are. And they're kind of ordinary right now, right? Your infant, is she a special human being right now? You, she's special to you.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, just normal.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  But she's, she's just, she's just regular. That is freeing. That's liberation. But you see, because culture is so diseased, because we only exalt what is extraordinary, that has created this sickness in all of us to be that. But guess why culture does it? Culture doesn't do it because extraordinary is better. Culture does it because in our striving to be extraordinary, we spend a lot of money. And culture is a capitalistic culture. So it benefits from us not feeling good enough and wanting to be extraordinary. And selling us this lie that extraordinary is amazing. And it's never good enough. You know that it's never good enough. You, you got on the New York Times Bestseller.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  You think it made you different? Did it make you any different?

• 28:52Speaker 00

  No.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  After I checked the box for two hours, the next day you were back to wanting more. Now you want to be a New York Times bestseller the next time you write the book. I know because I'm three times New York bestseller, but I want it again. Because it's indicative of an ever shifting illusion that keeps us hungry. And it's a lie. And so every time I want it, I tell myself, no, no, no, no, no. Your true self doesn't want it because your true self doesn't need it. It's your egoic self that has lied, been lied to by culture that is thirsty for it. So do you want to listen to your ego? Now, it can be there and I say hello ego that wants better hair, better nose, better eyes, better New York Times.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  No problem. I say hello. I don't get angry with my ego, but I recognize it's a lie.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  And my true self, I always tell my ego, uh huh ego, I'm not going to believe that I need that. Because my true deepest sense knows I'm good enough as I am. I've worked on that so much that my deepest wisdom knows that. But see, most people don't have that deepest wisdom and that's what I teach.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  It's so fascinating because just listening, I'm seeing so many, so many things of this in my own life. And another thing that you said that I want to just go back to was you talked about the first 10 years of motherhood for you. You really pulled back your ambition and leaned into what your daughter was teaching you. And I find that myself. In fact, we talked on your podcast, I was pregnant with my second. And I was saying, one of the things I really struggle with is play. I hate to get down on the floor and play. I really don't enjoy it. I find it very challenging. Do you think that's indicative of work that I need to do? Does everyone find it boring? Do I just need to suck it up? What is your thoughts on that? Do you hear it a lot?

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I hear it a lot. And let me tell you that while it does come from sort of need for control. It is not pathological that you don't like to play. I found it quite boring and challenging. I can do it for 10 minutes and then I'm like, okay, how much do I need to be Simba the lion again? I cannot. It's so annoying. And our children are so bossy and controlling, right? But you see what they're trying to do, right? In the play, they're trying to recreate life where they are in control. Because all of life, they don't have control. That is the child's genius way of saying, now mommy, you do what I want.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Because instinctively, they know all damn day I'm doing what mommy wants. So if you can just look at it as 15 minutes of letting her boss you around. Because she wants to feel a little bit grown up like you, because she sees you being in control. So don't look at it as like, oh my God, I hate to play. Look at it as a psychological function that you're giving her, you're allowing her to cultivate where she gets to boss mommy around. And in the play, when she sees mommy saying, well, how should I roar like this or like that stupid questions, you know? How should I be a lion like this or like that? It's stupid questions, but for her, it's mommy is asking me what I want?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  That's making me feel very empowered. It's a psychological strategy. So don't look at it like I, Natalie, hate to play. Look at it, I'm actually being a mother, teaching her to be empowered. And that she gets to tell me what to do. It's actually psychologically empowering for her. So if you could just look at it strategically, you can do it for 15 minutes and then give it up. Because you're tired. You don't have to do it forever. Just do it for the psychological part where she gets to boss mommy around. And it makes her feel competent, like, oh, my mom is listening to me. And then outsource it, you know, if you can. Now, if you can't outsource it, then you go back after an hour, you know, go, okay, let me do it again.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  But don't look at it as you have to play. Look at it as I'm teaching her something. Maybe that'll help you a little bit.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  It does. But then what if you're home all day with your kids and they want to play all day? The 15 minutes is not enough. They just want to keep playing. What do you, what do you do? I, I feel like I don't, I don't know what to do.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I know, I know, because you're looking at it as a doing. You just have to look at it as a being. Let her control you. Do it. You don't have to get an A grade. You're trying to do it well. You're trying to be creative. They, play is the child's language.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  So she's just talking. So you're looking at it like now she wants me to play. No, she just wants you with her. In her natural language, in her country called plenum, where she's speaking the language called play. They don't know how to not play. Everything is play.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  But you just have to then sit there for hours and just zone out?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  I know. You, you just.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  How do you do it?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Eventually she will parallel play with you. And you can say, I'm doing my thing here, which is.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Could I read a book or does that feel like distracting?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  No, you can say, now mommy's in her house and in her house she's going to sleep and read. And what are you doing in your house? You go do it in your house and you can kind of parallel play. They're good at parallel play. But then eventually she'll come back to you and then she'll charge herself up. But then you can send her back. And as she grows older, she will do more and more independently and just you can say, I'm in my house. I'm going to my castle and this princess is very tired.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  That's so smart. And I did wonder that about the book because I, I really try to not be on my phone around my kids as much as I can. And then, but I love to read. That feels so good to me. And I don't think it's a bad habit to model to them, but I also then wonder, oh, if, if they see me ignoring them for the phone. Is it the same if I'm ignoring them for a book?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  No, you see the phone, they can see that it's so engaging. And they're, they're going to want to see what's on the phone.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  So versus a book, if they want to see what's in the book, they can pick up a book. See, you're teaching them a very different reward. Like what is so rewarding on the, on the phone, then you'll get them addicted to it. But if they're thinking, what's so rewarding in a book, that's a good thing. So it's a good thing.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Okay, great.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yes. And you cannot be on 24/7.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  No, it's impossible.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  No, it's brain numbing. It's mind numbing.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think about weekends with my kids and we try and get outside as much as we can because it's way easier to like go to the beach and stuff. But if we are staying home all day, I just don't know how much play I've got in me.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  You don't have to push yourself. And let me tell you, let her be bored. And let her be frustrated. It's okay.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  You just go, I don't know what to do and just sit in the, I don't, I don't know. You don't have to over function for her. Boredom is part of childhood too. It's actually a very necessary ingredient that we're stealing from our children. By keeping them stimulated all the time, we're actually damaging their brain. By actually being on and a playmate all the time, we're damaging them. So let them be alone. Let them figure it out. You can be around there. Let them be bored. Let them look really dumb and dull. You know why? Why do you think that is? Because then their brain turns on.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  They're not getting dependent on an external stimulation. Their brain is so creative, Natalie. Give it time, it'll turn on and you'll be like, oh my God, she's writing a song. She's made a whole life in a movie. But we don't wait and we give them the candy or we give them the screen or we give them ourselves. And we actually take out the mechanism for creativity. I remember when I was a child, I would annoy my mother. I remember saying the words, mom, I'm bored. Mom, I'm bored. And she literally would say, I'm bored too. I don't know what to do. Go figure it out. She never had the time or the energy or even the anxiety to fix my boredom. And now anytime I have quiet, I will come up with a book.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Like literally, people shouldn't leave me alone because my, my brain turns on.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Your child has the same, you have the same potential. If you stay bored long enough, watch how creative you'll get. So look at boredom as a good thing. So when you're sitting there looking at your kid like, I don't know what to do, it's a good thing. Let her brain turn on. It will turn on. They have this power, but we don't believe it anymore because we're not sitting in stillness and space. I wait to be bored now. So anytime I'm like, I need a new project, I need, I go, okay, go silent, tick, go away from your screens. Don't talk to anyone for five, six hours. I get beautiful ideas because I believe in my brain's capacity to turn on. It's called the default mode network. It's an actual thing.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  It gets turned on and that's original thinking, spontaneous play, creativity and exploration. So next time you don't know what to do with your kid, it's a good thing.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Okay. And that feels so much. I'm going to read some more books on a weekend.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yes. And you don't have to be on all the time.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I think that's definitely, and I think too, that speaks so much to working moms where you feel like if you're working during the week. Then all weekend you have to be on and you're exhausted.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  No, then you're teaching your child that.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Being on and busy is the way to be. You know, sometimes I'll tell my daughter, what do you have planned today? And she's like, oh, I'm just gonna read or I'm just chilling. And the high achiever part of me goes, that's all you're doing. But she's so happy, she's okay.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  You know, and, and they don't have to do to feel worthy. This is something culture has taught us.

• 38:28Speaker 00

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• 39:11Speaker 00

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• 40:36Speaker 00

  And I've heard you talk a lot about, especially with girls, but I'm sure it applies to both. From a young age, we often put onto them things we want them to do or them to be. And we override their body's natural instinct and intuition. Can you speak about that? Cause that was such an aha when I heard you say that.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the other day, literally a client came to me and she said she got into a fight with her twelve year old. And I said, why, what happened? Because I know the twelve year old. And she said, she was being so disrespectful. She was just sitting there and reading and the whole family was going for a walk in the evening. And she had not had fresh air. So we, we got upset with her because she didn't want to come outside for a walk because she wanted to read. So I was like, okay. No, no, no, wait, maybe she was smoking pot or something. Maybe she was doing something toxic. So I asked again, no. Okay, you wanted her to go outside because she was doing something toxic? And the mother was like, oh, I know where you're gonna go with this, Shafali. I said, what was she doing wrong? She said, well, she wasn't getting fresh air.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  So I said, and was she suffocating in the house? Was she inhaling fumes? Like, what was the problem? She said, well, I thought we should all go get fresh air. So this is what I mean. If there's no harm and it's actually good, she was reading. Like if there was a blizzard outside, we would say she was doing a good thing.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  But because it was sunny and the mother decided we needed fresh air, she decided that was a bad thing. Many times, or if not most times, we project what is good based on our movie onto our kids. And they can be completely okay. So I'll tell you a funny story. A, a rich client of mine had booked the VIP tourist pass for Disney, Disney World. And the kids were four and six. So I was like, really? You spent like five, six thousand dollars for a five and six. She's like, yeah, I want to go on all the rides and I have the resources, why not? So she goes to Disney, she calls me within like few hours of landing. I know when she's gonna land.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  She's like, Dr. Shafali, like, I can't, I can't bring my kids out of the hotel pool. She's like, they don't wanna go to Disney World. So I'm like, oh my God, that is awful. Like, what is wrong with your children? They don't wanna go to the happiest place on earth? She's like, no, they just wanna be in this stupid little pool and it's a public pool. And I'm like, oh my God. So I kept playing with her. And she was like, yeah, you see, I have booked it and we're supposed to be there at six o'clock. And now they're wasting my money and they're wasting the time. And I was like, but they're happy. And she's like, yeah, but they're not happy there. I said, I know. I said, should we yank them out? Should we, should we tell them, stop being happy here and let's go be happy there? And then she saw the absurdity of what she was saying. They were happy, but because she had created a movie of how to be happy at Disney World,

• 43:27Speaker 01

  this wasn't good enough. So she was about to create a fight and about to create a problem because they were not fitting into her movie. So we create movies, we're doing it all the time. But children are okay in your kitchen, playing with dishes and wooden spoons. I promise you, don't waste your money.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Until they show an instinct for what they want, right? But when you superimpose, you'll play the violin, you'll go skiing, you'll go bowling, but they don't want to, it's not coming from them. It may be a fight. Now, parents will say, but then should we not expose them to anything? I always say, expose them, but do it at your own peril. Then don't get angry with the kid because they hate violin and you just paid for years of classes.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Then do it little by little, rent the violin, don't buy the violin. Do it for three months and try it out. Don't bind the kid and then blame the kid.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and one thing you've said too, which I found really helpful was say you've signed your kid up for ballet lessons and they keep saying, I don't wanna go and you've already signed them up. Well, why don't you just say, let's go watch?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Just ease them in just a little bit.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Step by step.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  First and foremost, before you sign up, you should never sign up, okay? Before you sign up, you try it out.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  You buy the shoes, you rent the shoes, you play at home, you watch it on a movie, you test the waters.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  And you see the natural inclination. And then after watching, after playing, after doing it innocently and harmlessly, then you invest. But you see, our egos are so big because we like it, we put it on them. And then we get upset with them because they don't push through. But why don't we do it incrementally? Don't buy the horse, don't sign up for horse riding lessons. You know, buy a toy horse and see whether she likes it or watch Black Beauty, this movie on horses and see if she's warming up.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Right? Warm your kid up before you invest anything.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. I love this. Okay, one thing I wanna do with you is coming back to, you know, this, I think, identity crisis that a lot of women are in, specifically being very codependent with their business and, and finding a lot of their worth in their work and their ambition. There's a few things that I see come up with my clients a lot. I actually went and pulled these from a lot of feedback forms that I gather from my audience. And I was wondering, I was gonna read you things women in my audience do in their businesses. You tell me what you think could be underneath it.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  And if a woman who's listening sees themselves in any of this, maybe it's just food for thought.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Just food for thought, not judgment.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Exactly, things they could work on. So she can't fire someone who clearly isn't working out.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that is typically a very, you know, a disease to please empath who has poor boundaries and doesn't believe that she's worthy of being treated with respect. She actually doesn't respect herself or her job or her work or what she's offering, that she feels that the other person is giving more than she's giving because she undermines her worth and what she's giving. And she's actually disrespecting what she's giving. If she truly understood what she's giving, she would demand respect back.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Hmm, what's the antidote to that?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I think really respecting her, her work and raising the bar and asking everyone to respect what they're giving and what they're getting so that they don't abuse her. And so she doesn't have to discipline anyone or fire anyone.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  So good. She overdelivers for every single client.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  She's someone who is a high functioning codependent who probably gets her sense of worth from fixing everyone's problems and needs to be needed. So she overdoes so that they become dependent on her. So then, ah, she's needed all the time. And she will get exhausted, she will burn out and actually she will potentially get abused. And then that'll further fuel her story that she's not worthy, which will further fuel that she will give. But she doesn't understand that she is the co-creator of that abuse.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  So good.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  She can't take one full day off without checking Slack or email.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  She is somebody who feels very uncomfortable being alone and being still. She is married to her identity of her worth in the public eye. She wants to make sure that she is in the loop. And being alone and quiet and not married to her work identity feels very scary for her. She feels worthless without it.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  She says yes to opportunities that she actually doesn't want.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  She's afraid that if she doesn't say yes, it may not come again. The person will be upset with her. She's afraid of making people get angry with her. She feels that that yes is the only currency leverage she has to keep that connection. And so she says yes. She doesn't understand that her worth comes from her relationship, not from her saying yes. And that even if she says no, opportunities will come back to her. She needs to trust that.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  So good. Okay, last one. She's more comfortable in a crisis than in a calm week.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  She has become toxically bonded to chaos and the dopamine high from solving problems. And her dopamine is coming from that toxic place rather than dopamine coming from pleasure. She's gotten addicted to dopamine from pain and solving pain. And then that high that comes from the solving of the pain versus true pleasure.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  So good. Okay, what I want to jump into now is overcorrection. So what I feel like we see, and I see this in myself too, is we have a generation trying to parent in reaction to what happened to them.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  And I've, you know, I talked to my own therapist about this too, where I sometimes try and shield my kids from small discomfort that I know I shouldn't do because I'm trying to overcorrect and manage my own inner child at the same time.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Can that in itself cause a different kind of harm and what do we do?

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness, yes. And I think I'm a little bit responsible for what has happened. When I, you know, quote unquote, created conscious parenting in 2010, I was telling parents to heal and to attune and to watch, watch themselves. Like, watch it. You're really putting on your kids so much contamination from your childhood. Back then, it was revolutionary. Now it's become part of the mainstream, but I do think the pendulum has swung too much. And now people have gotten confused with being so present and so smothering and so careful and calling it conscious parenting.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  That's not conscious parenting. That's as unconscious. You're just now overdoing it on the other side. You know, you don't want to be neglectful, so you're being so present, but you're providing too much mothering and you can't believe there's such a thing called too much. Right? Now it's smothering. And it's coming from the same anxiety. So the answer is always to be tuned in. What conscious parenting teaches is be aware. Be aware of how you're reacting, of why you're reacting. And if you're anxious, don't fix it. If you're coming from anxiety, it's still taking care of you. Even though you're being so sweet and gentle, but you're coming from anxiety.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  So first modulate and moderate that anxiety and really take care of that inner girl. Because otherwise, you're still going to use the parent relationship to take care of your inner girl. You're just going to do it in a sweet way. You're just going to not punish, but you're still anxious. And that anxiety is coming from you and you have to take care of it.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  And what's the difference between conscious parenting and gentle parenting? And where do you land on that spectrum?

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I look at conscious parenting as the overarching philosophy, which is transformational, alchemical, deep. And gentle parenting is just a strategy. It's a tone, it's a sweetness. Great, let's all be gentle. Who wants to be harsh and mean? But when you're harsh and mean, it doesn't mean you're not conscious. Sometimes it's okay to be harsh and quote unquote, not gentle. So right now, my daughter's 23. I'm not gentle with her. I'm very brutal and she'd be like, ouch. Because I told her the other day, I said, no matter what, you and I will disagree that at this age, children need to be doing X, Y, Z. Because she's still living at home. And me fundamentally believes that that's not so healthy.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  And I've told her that she's on a time limit to be under my wing and she needs to go out there. And she and I debate about it. And I am very brutal with her. I'm not gentle with her. I go, this is the truth. I say it lovingly, but I'm saying it harshly. This is a boundary. By 24, I expect ta, ta, ta, ta, ta. And the gentle parent may not do that. The gentle parent may say, oh, it's whatever you need. I don't believe that. It's not whatever the child needs. It's also what is developmentally appropriate. So when it's developmentally appropriate, I will be harsh. And it may look harsh and may look brutal. And I'm willing to cut, cut the cord.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  So I'm not gentle, but I'm very conscious. I'm doing it out of a tuning to her developmental needs. So saying no is very important. And a gentle parent may not want to say no because the kid will say, you're mean mommy. Yes, you're allowed to have boundaries. And I do believe the true gentle parents are not against boundaries. It just gets, you know, confused.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  It gets confused with all the Instagram reels.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I feel for myself, I don't feel like I'm a gentle parent. And sometimes I think, God, am I a little too harsh? But at the end of the day, for me, if my four-year-old decides she's getting up at 5:30, that to me is a hard no. Get back to bed.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  I'm not interested.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  You can stay in bed or you can be quiet. You don't have to sleep.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  But I'm not.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  I don't want to be involved.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  I can't be involved till the sun comes up.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  And you're allowed to say that because she's four. Now, if she was two, you would take care of her.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  But she's four, and even at four, you can be around. You can lie in the bed with her, but she needs to do her own thing.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  Well, I'm pretty strict because I've got my 11-month-old that's off in bed with me.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  And you can't.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  And she comes in that early and I say, you need to get back to bed or go play. You're not waking me up.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  And she will have all these excuses and I say, I'm not interested.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  And sometimes I'm like, am I too far on the other side? But for me, if she wants me to be functioning with her that day.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  I'm not getting up at 5:00 AM when I've been up all day with the baby.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  But also, you know, she's capable.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Of playing in her room alone.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  She's safe.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  She's safe.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  So that is conscious. That is not unconscious, but it sounds and looks very not gentle.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  That's why I don't like to call conscious parenting gentle parenting. I like to say gentle parenting is a component.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Of conscious parenting, but conscious parenting takes care of the whole family system, takes care of the mother, takes care of her inability, her level of exhaustion.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  And it doesn't override it just to be nice to the kid.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and one thing I'm working on myself too, which I've been on a whole journey of, I feel like for me, a huge pattern was over-functioning, over-giving, people-pleasing, all of those things. And I'm really determined to let that go and I don't want to model that for my daughters. I don't want to model that I am always putting myself last to take care of everyone else. And then I often think, you know, what is the balance? I'm curious what you think about that.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so first, it's never a perfect balance. You will always mess up, then you'll rein in, you'll toggle, then you'll fall. So it's always a push and pull, yes? There are days you're like, oh, I overdid it. I've totally messed up. And the next day, you're like, eh, and the kid is going, why are you being so, you know, saying no all day today? Because I need to, I need to reset. So there's no perfect middle-of-the-road fine point. You know, the metronome will keep. But the beauty is that you keep moving.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  You keep adapting. And they will eventually, over time, your children will figure it out. They will, through the law of averages, figure out who their mother is. So don't go too this way and too that way. You know, you'll just go like this, quick, quick, quick, quick. And it's always a push and a pull. You know, there's an illusion out there that it can stay kind of predictable. It will never be predictable. This is the madness of motherhood. And the sanity is in accepting the insanity. It will, you'll always be late, you'll always have dirty clothes because they've dribbled or vomited. Your room and your house will be a mess. You will be tired. You may put on weight, you may not go to the gym, you may neglect your partner. This is part of the fallout of doing it all.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  All of those things apply.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  So you have two books out at the same time, which I think is so genius. Raising Conscious Sons and Raising Conscious Daughters. Now, I'm going to put the links below because I know you've got tons of bonuses for people that grab them. I'm curious if you can sum up in a few ways why you felt the need to write two books and how the two differ.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so there they are. They're under Natalie's beautiful book. So I wrote two books, Raising Conscious Sons, because I could see that we don't know how to raise our boys, which is why we have pathological adult men. It's not just because they're assholes. It's because they were missing something in boyhood. And I'm not condoning their behavior or the violence that they've done against women and daughters. I am talking about what can we give them in terms of conscious masculinity that the manosphere cannot give them and is not giving them. So please pick up the book Raising Conscious Sons, even if you don't have a son and give it to somebody who does. Because if you care about your daughter, you will buy the book for the boys. That's the most profound book I've written, I think.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Wow, okay. That's really powerful.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  It's daring because I talk about your boy's sexuality and your boy's anger and how to help him so that he grows up to be the man you want your daughter to be with if she's straight, if she's cisgendered and straight. So the other book, Raising Conscious Daughters, is my ode to my lost self, my daughter's lost self. For all women out there, how can you reparent yourself? How can you raise your daughter in a way that you wish your mother understood about you? And she didn't, or your father? And I give a blueprint for Raising Conscious Daughters as well.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  I think it's so smart and needed to write those two books. I'm so excited. I'm going to put all the links below.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  I really, really encourage. I've read all your books. They are phenomenal. I cannot wait to dive in. I'm hoping I get to keep these copies. So the question that I want to end on goes back to what you were talking about, where you were talking about how you were different in the first 10 years of being a mom in your 30s, which I think is most of my demographic listening here. What advice do you have for the woman who's listening? And I'm going to describe her. She's in the trenches.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  She is trying to build a business. She's trying to remain, keep some semblance of herself and her own identity. She's figuring out who she is, while also trying to be a great mom, great wife, friend, all the things. She's in the thick of it, in the trenches. She's like, just, just give me a map. What do I do? How do I make this easier for myself, but also do it in a way that honors my kids and my relationships?

• 59:12Speaker 01

  You know, I, I promise you what I'm saying has some kernels of truth, even though there may be resistance. So just let me complete the whole answer. The way the world is set up in terms of career and hustling and wealth, it is set up based on a masculine model. Men in their 30s are meant to go out there and hustle and rise. Now, women looking at that going, damn, I want that too. And we mistake that there is a window. And we think that the window is in our 30s. But the window in our 30s, if you want to be a mother, that's the time to be the mother. So now that's why we're in conflict, because we, we think that that is our window. See, I knew in my 30s that that's not my window to hustle and reach the peak.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  That is my window to reach the full potential of my motherhood. If I want to experience it, I'm not saying everyone has to experience it. If I want to do that, this is my window for that. Now, you may look at the man and go, why isn't it his window for fatherhood? Because fatherhood doesn't involve the same kind of focus or involvement than the mother who's biologically just had the child. Now, you may say, why does she have to do it? Well, her body was built for that, for that biological purpose. So you don't have to do it. But there's a beauty when you do surrender to saying that that is my window for my biological adventure of being a mother like no other. And I trusted that that would teach me and give me the feminine liberation and empowerment

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  that the masculine liberation and empowerment was not going to give me. And then in my 40s and my 50s, I was going to come crazy crushing it. And I trusted it, and that's what happened. So I wanted the biological adventure of motherhood in my 30s. I did not see it as missing a window. I knew my window as a woman was going to come 40s and 50s. And the man would be facing his own crisis and let him do whatever he needs to do. I'm not even bothered. I'm not on the timeline of a man. I'm on a timeline of my biological imperative. And it may sound traditional, may, I like being a woman. I love my body and what it can give me. And I want to get the most out of it. So my 30s was to get the most out of being a mother. But let me tell you, I didn't stop learning.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  I was doing my PhD. I was using my mind. I just wasn't out there climbing the masculine ladder. I was doing my feminine, an ocean. I was swimming in the waters. And then in my 40s, I came rising strong, roaring heavy, and I began crushing it on my timeline. So what the gift I want to give women is that you have a different timeline. That's why I wrote two books for girls and boys differently, because they have different hormonal timelines. We're supposed to come into our power in our 50s, when our estrogen is going down, when we're done doing the oxytocin stuff. You watch how these women in menopause are coming roaring strong. And they're like, what's happened to me?

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Powerful, yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Powerful, because we've done that. And we allowed ourselves to be in that energy. Now, this doesn't mean every woman has to be a mother. It doesn't mean that. But for those who are, don't be in conflict to the degree that you are, because then you will suffer. Allow yourself to have timelines and say, this is my timeline for this. And I can still be a boss babe, but I'll put it a little bit back. I'll turn the gear a little bit down. And then I'll turn the gear up later. And don't feel like you're going to miss any window. There is, oh my God, you're not only not missing the window, the real palace is coming later.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  I think that's so hard to hear

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  because we're always, every generation is convinced they're missing the window. So right now, there's people listening thinking, well, there's a window of AI. It's a huge opportunity. I'm, I'm losing out on the opportunity.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an illusion.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  I promise you, it's an illusion because there'll always be another window that tells you you're missing out. I just told you, culture commodifies our health to make sure that we never feel good enough, always feel like there's a new thing, new thing. It's a lie. I mean, I've lived longer. I can tell you, I can't tell you how many new things that I've refused to get on the bandwagon with. I did it on my own timeline and I was always in touch at the right time. Never follow anyone else's timeline. Follow yours and do you. So if that means not becoming a mother, that's okay too.

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  So be deeply connected to what your life, your body, your story is taking you and telling you. And I've always followed that, you know, for myself. I've always stayed so authentic. And I've never lost because I stayed true to myself, even though I was scared. You know, when I got my divorce, when I was 44, I was terrified of losing my clients, of being told that I failed. But it was so authentic to me that the way I came out, out of that was so attractive to me and people that it was undeniable that it was the right thing to do. So when you do the right thing for yourself, you shine with a light that is so captivating

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  that people are drawn to that versus playing a role, being in a mask. And sure, you could be superficially successful, but you won't last. It won't be sustainable.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  I really agree. And I, I'm really open about the fact that I do think being a mom makes me a worse business owner right now because I'm not getting back to everyone. I'm not replying to emails. I'm not doing fill in the blank because I'm making sacrifices.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  But you're also making choices that are clear. You reached out to me for this podcast.

• 1:04:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  I had given, I had said, no, she's not doing podcasts.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Something in you felt it and it happened. Now you will choose based on such high integration of mind, body, soul.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Where before you were not doing it on this high frequency. You will see the decisions an integrated mother makes are so powerful because she doesn't have time to waste.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  That, that I think is really true. Like, I'm really only doing the things I really care about doing and knowing when good is good enough. And you know, soon I'm about to wrap up work for the whole year. It's August now and I'm about to wrap up for the whole year. And that feels really good to me because I feel like I've done the thing. I wanted to hit the list this year. That was like my one goal. And so I, but I need to know when good's good enough. But I think the, the other side of that is, well, people will say, well, you know, the patriarchy wins. Men will always be ahead of women because they don't need to stay home and they get to do.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  But again, it's the patriarchy's, toxic patriarchy's definition of being ahead. And if you really want to be a feminist, create your own definition of what it means to be ahead. Don't do it the patriarchy's way. Don't play the game the man's way and then complain. Make your own definition of what is good enough. Make your own New York Times bestseller list. Fill your own cup based on your own worth, based on your own principles of masculine and feminine. Don't follow culture's prescription of what is good enough, what's ahead of the game, what's the timeline that you have to be successful by 45? Do it on your timeline in your own way.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  I love that. Thank you for being here. I'm really excited.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  I'm so happy that I could speak to your audience.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  So the links for the books are below. Where can everyone find you?

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Well, I want people to know that I have a coaching institute. So if you want to be a really conscious parent, spend five months with me. I will train you hands on how to be the best conscious parent. And then you can be a conscious parenting coach if you want. And listeners listening will get $500 off. So tell us that you heard it on Natalie's podcast. Go to drshafali.com. Buy the books there because you're going to get so many bonuses. You get free access to my community. You get a masterclass and lots of other things. So make sure you go there and buy the books from those links.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  And with the coaching, what's the kind of time commitment there?

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  It's five months. It's five to seven hours a week. You can do it while driving your kids. You can do it while being on the treadmill. It is meant for working mothers. And the things you learn there, you wish you had learned in graduate school or in high school. And it will change your parenting for the next 20 years. So it's a five month investment that'll catapult you into the most conscious parent that you can ever be. I mean, it is, it's a life changing course.

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  Wow, okay. Maybe I'm going to do that. I don't want to coach, but I think I want to learn that for myself.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Yep. And everybody says that. They come in saying, I'm doing it for myself. They leave and they set up a coaching business because they see how powerful it is and how without it, you can't actually be a coach for women because it teaches you so much about reparenting yourself. And it's so genius. I teach meditation. I teach eastern spirituality. And all my 12 years of doing three masters and a PhD have distilled that this is the only psychology you need to know.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  I think I might do it. Thank you so much.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.