Pod Insights The Binge Cases: Doctor Billions My Mother’s Lies | 6. The Unraveling About this episode The star witnesses from 2008 face a massive decision. Will Ray’s efforts to expose his mom’s fabrications get Quincy Cross a new trial?
Want the full story? Binge every episode of My Mother’s Lies ad-free now by subscribing to The Binge+. You’ll unlock over 60 true crime series instantly, get early access to drops on the first of every month, and hear exclusive bonus episodes.
Search for the channel on Apple Podcasts or head to GetTheBinge.com.
For behind-the-scenes details, join our free newsletter at Patreon.com/TheBinge.
My Mother’s Lies is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard.
Follow @sonypodcasts and discover more at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices at podcastchoices.com/adchoices.
The Binge — feed your true crime obsession.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 7,090 words · 25 speakers
0:04 Speaker 00 Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human. Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.
0:30 Speaker 01 Listen to every episode of My Mother's Lies ad-free right now when you subscribe to The Binge. You'll hear the entire series before anyone else, get exclusive bonus episodes, and unlock more than 60 other true crime podcasts. Just head to The Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and tap Subscribe, or visit GetTheBinge.com to listen wherever you are. The Binge: Feed your true crime obsession. The Binge. It's December 18th, 2025.
1:13 Speaker 01 Seventeen years since Quincy Omar Cross was found guilty of Jessica Curran's murder. Seventeen years of denied appeals, frustration and despair. And it all comes down to, today, a shot at freedom. We're at the Graves County Circuit Court on the final day of a new evidentiary hearing. Over the previous days, Quincy's defense team has scrutinized a number of eyewitnesses and their testimony that were so critical to the 2008 prosecution and conviction of Quincy Cross. But today, the focus shifts to the men deemed responsible for extracting that testimony.
2:04 Speaker 01 That is the voice of Special Judge Tyler Gill. The man on the stand, who Judge Gill is reprimanding, is former KBI agent Lee Wise.
2:19 Speaker 02 Sir, is this how you talk with the young girls in this case during the interrogations? No?
2:26 Speaker 01 This is Quincy's defense attorney, referencing the infamous Drury Inn interviews, where Agents Lee Wise and Bob O'Neill aggressively interrogated young witnesses, including Victoria Caldwell and Jessica's cousin, Venetia Stubblefield.
2:41 Speaker 02 You didn't yell at them?
2:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:45 Speaker 02 You didn't talk over them when they were trying to tell you what they knew?
2:48 Speaker 01 No, not to my mind.
2:51 Speaker 02 You testified earlier that you knew that Venetia Stubblefield was afraid. You remember saying that?
2:59 Speaker 01 I think you need to give me a little more than that. When was did I say she was afraid? Why?
3:04 Speaker 02 Just to give an excuse.
3:06 Speaker 01 Good man. So far, Lee Wise has been pretty argumentative, obstructive even. And if he goes on like this, he's at risk of being held in contempt. So he should be careful.
3:17 Speaker 02 Sir, I am trying to ask you a question.
3:21 Speaker 01 I can't answer something that you're asking a question, but you're answering it for me. Quincy's attorney doesn't get much further before the judge steps in again.
3:31 Speaker 03 Do we need to take a break for about 10 minutes? Because I don't want something bad to happen here.
3:36 Speaker 01 The judge calls for a 10-minute recess, so Agent Wise can compose himself. 17 years ago, it was Quincy and a handful of witnesses who were in the spotlight, facing an interrogation. Now, the tables have turned. So what exactly happened in these 17 years to bring us to this point? And will the story Susan Galbraith helped the KBI construct finally be reckoned with? And will it be enough to warrant a retrial for Quincy Cross? From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, this is My Mother's Lies. I'm Beth Karas.
4:20 Speaker 01 This is our finale, Episode 6, The Unraveling.
4:32 Speaker 01 Let's go back to 2008. Quincy has been convicted. In the fallout of the trial, his remaining co-defendants continued maintaining their innocence. But Tamara Caldwell, Quincy's one-time girlfriend, and Jeff Burton, who lived at the house near the school where Jessica's body was supposedly stored, are now pushed by their attorneys to take plea deals. Here's private investigator and former cop, John Poole.
4:59 Speaker 04 Well, I think both of them had seen what happened to Quincy, and they'd been locked up for months before that. And then certainly, if I was sitting in a jail cell and I saw that happen, I would be worried.
5:15 Speaker 01 Our producer Alice recently caught up with Jeff to ask him about that time.
5:20 Speaker 05 I'm thinking Quincy goes to trial, I'm gonna go home. You know what I'm saying? They find him guilty. I'm just kind of going off my emotions of what I'm reliving in my head. It just sucks.
5:34 Speaker 06 It's okay to be emotional.
5:37 Speaker 01 Both Tamara and Jeff took what's known as Alfred pleas. Legally, it's not an admission of guilt. They don't utter the words, "I did this, I'm guilty." But it's where the accused accepts that there is sufficient evidence to convict and chooses not to contest it at trial. Jeff Burton went to prison for seven years.
5:58 Speaker 05 The time that was wasted, the more I missed, I should say. My youngest one was two, he got out, he was nine. My oldest one's seven, she is 14. My other one's a four, she is 11.
6:13 Speaker 01 An ordeal that has left him with PTSD.
6:16 Speaker 05 I felt like I was pleading to God, you know what I'm saying, so to speak. Like, dude, I can't, I can't endure it no more.
6:24 Speaker 01 Similarly, Quincy's ex-girlfriend, Tarma, would serve nearly six years of her 10-year sentence. One person who did not take the Alfred plea after Quincy was convicted was Austin Leach, the owner of the white Cadillac. Austin had a good defense team and decided to take his chances at trial. Unlike Quincy's public defender, Austin's attorney methodically dismantled the witness's inconsistencies and poked holes in the prosecution's narrative. In one "gotcha" moment, Victoria Caldwell failed to correctly identify Austin in the courtroom. In the end, the jury returned a different verdict. Austin was acquitted.
7:09 Speaker 01 Our producer, Alice, recently spoke with him, too. He said he wants to move on with his life and declined to participate in a recorded interview.
7:21 Speaker 01 Private investigator John Poole, who you've been hearing from, assisted Austin's legal team. He thinks Austin had more in his favor than just better representation. As a white defendant, Austin may have faced a different type of scrutiny than Quincy Cross.
7:37 Speaker 04 So really, it was the same. Basically, the trial was similar, the girls and all. But we had a different jury.
7:46 Speaker 01 So Quincy's trial was moved outside of Mayfield to another town where the majority of people were white. And Quincy is black.
7:53 Speaker 04 I think that taking that case to Clinton, Kentucky, in a little place with a limited jury pool, made it harder. And the jury was 11 white persons and one black.
8:07 Speaker 01 In fact, during this production, John Poole told us he's heard that the one black female juror at Quincy's trial felt intimidated by the other 11. So it's hard for me to believe that race didn't play a role in Quincy's conviction.
8:23 Speaker 01 Meanwhile, following the convictions of Quincy and the others, back in the UK, Tom Mangle continued his coverage, writing a piece for another British newspaper in April 2009. In it, he tells of their investigation and Susan's heroic efforts. In the US, too, the press heralded the citizen sleuth who solved a murder.
8:46 Speaker 07 Virtually every day. She became convinced this man, Quincy Cross, in a drug haze, first assaulted Jessica Curran, then strangled her.
8:56 Speaker 01 Tom emails Susan, writing, quote, "I'll make you famous yet." In this 2008 CBS broadcast following the convictions, Susan once again repeated her claim about Quincy stalking her.
9:10 Speaker 07 She asked so many questions. She says at one point, Cross started stalking her.
9:15 Speaker 08 I kept thinking Cross had to be involved somehow.
9:20 Speaker 01 In the following months, Susan is interviewed on Japanese TV and does at least one paid interview for Women's Own magazine. But it's the hope of a Hollywood film that she's really holding on to. In a radio interview with Tom Mangle, here in the States, he confirms their story is being optioned, a contract we understand Susan may have received a substantial payment for.
9:43 Speaker 09 I've read on your website, Mr. Mangle, that there is a film in the works about the subject.
9:49 Speaker 10 I received approximately 15 to 16 film offers. The script has been written. And don't ask me who's going to play me, because I wanted Brad Pitt.
10:03 Speaker 01 Around the same time, Tom is preparing his own two-part BBC radio documentary. You've been hearing snippets of it throughout this series. In 2010, he headed back to Mayfield to gather fresh interviews. Along with noting the local concerns over the investigation, he also now finds that the witness stories have continued shifting. His interview with Victoria Caldwell is particularly problematic.
10:31 Speaker 01 Her story has continued to change. Weapons, dates, and vehicles are still confused. Details that don't match what she said at trial. In 2011, he asked Lacey Gates, Susan's friend and assistant, to speak with Victoria to clarify some things. When Lacey writes back, she drops a bombshell. According to Lacey, Victoria has apparently recanted, much per original testimony, admits she lied, and that she now has nightmares about it. Tom fires off an email back to Lacey, asking her not to get Susan involved because, quote, "We need her to stay well out of controversy
11:15 Speaker 01 for the purposes of the movie." He then emails Bob O'Neill, directly raising his concerns about, quote, "Victoria's veracity and status as a key witness." Tom's concerns and questions to the KBI appear to go largely unresolved. And in early January 2012, he emails his doubts to Lacey. I'll read this in full, because it's explosive. "I'm just beginning to wonder. This is but a tiny worm of an idea in my wine-soaked brain, that there is a teeny-weeny, itsy-bitsy chance that we've got the whole fucking murder story wrong, and that there may have been a huge miscarriage of justice,
11:58 Speaker 01 that Burton and Tamara may be wholly innocent, that Jay was killed on the school playing fields, and that there's something wrong about the KBI investigation. Please tell me I'm losing my sanity."
12:18 Speaker 01 Now, this is troubling, shocking. I mean, I am apoplectic over this. Tom admitting that Susan's story, the one they've been corresponding about for almost a decade, the story that directly contributed to the convictions against many people, might be wrong? Again, we asked Tom to participate in this podcast. He declined, but he did have this to say via email. He acknowledged that Victoria's statements have changed a lot over the years, that he felt after interviewing her twice himself and discussing these interviews at length with the KBI and lacking any credible alternative suspect or scenario, he remains convinced
13:00 Speaker 01 that Quincy is guilty and that Victoria was involved. He also stated that he does not recall sending that email expressing his doubts to Lacey Gates, saying, quote, "My feelings in 2012 were not my feelings later, which I changed." Whatever the extent of his doubts, a few months later, in May 2012, his BBC radio documentary aired, with the Susan prosecution story unchanged. Victoria's reported recantation is not included. Here's Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maggie Freeling discussing this unsettling turn of events.
13:42 Speaker 11 When Lacey gets involved, she virtually tells Tom this, like, hey, there is something off, like, Victoria's recanting, did you know this? And that's when I see Tom actually lean more into this theatrics and less journalism, because he goes ahead and publishes this article in which Victoria is the linchpin of this whole thing.
14:06 Speaker 01 Maggie cares so much about the miscarriage of justice in this case that she hosted her own podcast, season three of Bone Valley, which is devoted to Jessica Curran's murder. As a journalist, Maggie thinks Tom needed to disclose in his documentary the fact that Victoria had allegedly recanted.
14:26 Speaker 11 He's a journalist. When you have right in front of you the simplest thing, someone saying, hey, Victoria recanted, your due diligence before you publish that article is to go talk to Victoria, did you recant what happened and put it in that article? He intentionally did not do that. He had this information and did not put it in. And that breaks your oath as a journalist to do no harm and tell the truth.
14:55 Speaker 01 We can't be sure if Tom ever did share his doubts with Susan, or repeat what Lacey told him about Victoria's alleged recantation. But it seems similar doubts were starting to spread throughout Mayfield. As the rumor mill churned, the idea that something was wrong with the 2008 convictions grew, as did the idea that Susan had been seeking to profit from this tragedy. Here she is complaining about the local reaction in a 2010 interview with Tom Mangold.
15:29 Speaker 08 What should have been the high point of my life was dampened by negativity. The treatment that I've gotten from a lot of people here. I don't think I deserve it. I've been degraded. I've been called names.
15:50 Speaker 01 It seems Susan was no longer enjoying life in the spotlight. She started receiving hate mail and abusive comments on her MySpace page. One person even suggested it was she who really killed Jessica. Presumably adding to Susan's disappointment was the fact that, after all her efforts, she also never received the reported $9,000 reward money for helping solve the case. Turns out, it had all been spent or donated to charity by City Hall. If Susan hoped this blowback would eventually pass, she was wrong. As time went on, those rumors would grow into a clamor, as her critics united to try
16:35 Speaker 01 and reverse what was increasingly believed to be a gross miscarriage of justice.
16:48 Speaker 12 I had talked to Quincy once on the phone. I have met his mom, his sisters, and his dad. And I had talked with his dad several times. And he just wants the son to get help and get out of jail.
17:04 Speaker 01 In Mayfield, over the years, rumors of witness coercion spread. Residents banded together and shared theories. Wrongful conviction groups got involved. And eventually, a Free Quincy Cross movement built online support. Today, one of the most vocal advocates for Quincy's innocence is perhaps one of the most surprising, Jessica Curran's father, Joe.
17:28 Speaker 12 I would like for it to be on record that I do feel like that they got the wrong people. I don't think that Quincy was involved in Jessica's murder. I think Quincy was involved in drugs. And Susan knew that. And Susan didn't like him. And he was a newcomer to Mayfield. And so she put him in it. And they stayed with that story.
17:53 Speaker 01 The victim's own father believes Quincy to be innocent. I've seen this in other cases. In fact, here, Joe Curran's been working with Quincy's dad, David, for years to help him get his son's conviction overturned. Now, at this point, we should probably acknowledge a voice you haven't heard from in this series: Quincy's. A bit like at his 2008 trial, he now chooses to remain silent. We're in touch with his legal team and have exchanged emails with Quincy. He told us he can no longer trust the media after everything he's been through. And that's understandable. However, he has spoken out in the past.
18:34 Speaker 01 Here's what he had to say in 2023 to the Unforbidden Truth podcast.
18:40 Speaker 13 Well, see, I never met Chandler. My co-defendant is 2002, middle of 2002. I never knew Chandler in 2000. Now, Jeff Burton, I still don't know him. I don't know him and her because I ain't never met him. And he's supposed to be my co-defendant. Now, when these stuff was here, I didn't meet her till probably 2002. Right after me and Chandler got together. But I still don't know her either.
19:08 Speaker 13 I don't know nothing about this case. I know I'm locked up for it. It's something I don't know nothing about. And it's not right. Because I do know that I did not commit this horrific crime. I do know that.
19:25 Speaker 01 We did, however, manage to speak with his sister Rochelle, who still, to this day, can't believe a jury found her brother guilty.
19:34 Speaker 14 For them to just take somebody's word of mouth testimony and convict them for the rest of their life, I said, that is unheard of. That's insane. At least have some evidence to back it up. There's nothing to back it up.
19:48 Speaker 01 You see, even during the 2008 trial, there was controversy when one female witness broke down on the stand and recanted. In the end, her testimony wasn't pivotal, but that witness got sentenced to five years for first-degree perjury, which of course would have made others hesitant to publicly come forward with their own recantations. That is, until years later, when in 2012, Venetia, Jessica's cousin, officially recanted and signed an affidavit in the presence of a Kentucky Innocence Project investigator. It was a bold move.
20:26 Speaker 15 Reason why I lied like I did is because they told me that if I didn't tell what they wanted me to say, they were still going to charge my mom with the pipe that she had in her purse.
20:37 Speaker 01 In that interview, Venetia's mom even speaks up, corroborating her daughter's claim and actually accuses KBI agents of planting the crack pipe in question.
20:49 Speaker 01 Then, in 2014, Joe Curran writes an affidavit directly against Susan. Quote, "I was contacted by Susan Galbraith, who was a friend of Jeremy Adams's mother, and she offered her assistance in solving the murder. I later found out that she had no law enforcement or investigative training and appeared to be motivated in part by reward money." End quote. Two years later, it was Susan's best friend, Lacy Gates, who came forward. With a heavy heart, Lacy calls out Susan and writes her own affidavit to say she thinks Susan's story is untrue. In her statement, Lacy writes, quote, "It came to my attention during the course of
21:34 Speaker 01 the investigations, I feel that Susan Galbraith directed the police in the wrong direction and the wrong people were convicted," end quote. In the same statement, she also challenged Susan's decade-old claim that she was stalked by Quincy Cross. Quote, "She later found out that it was her estranged husband, Marty Galbraith, but she never corrected this fact to anyone," end quote. If Susan felt depressed before, Lacy's U-turn must have felt like a personal betrayal. At least, that's her son Ray's view.
22:12 Speaker 16 So this was Lacy, basically, you know, like, "Look, I'm done, kind of like I'm done with my mom," you know?
22:19 Speaker 01 In the end, Ray suspects his mother knew, deep down, something wasn't right with her story.
22:24 Speaker 06 You think she knew?
22:26 Speaker 16 I think she knew that Quincy didn't do it, but she's so far into it, she was under oath, saying some things. Just logically, I would think that there was, there's a lot of lies in there that she didn't want anybody to know.
22:43 Speaker 01 Ray had always wondered why his mom stopped engaging with the Curran's after they began to doubt Quincy's conviction.
22:48 Speaker 16 For me, if my mom wanted to stay in the good of all this, she should have just stayed with the Curran's. It's their daughter that all this is about. And once again, this goes back to her being wrong.
23:00 Speaker 01 In the end, Ray believes Susan was fixated on what she thought was the ultimate prize: fame and fortune.
23:08 Speaker 16 Tom started throwing movie ideas out, and, I mean, I could almost see the hamster wheel in my mom's head, just going crazy, just, "Oh, wow, yeah, movies this, movie that." She talked about the people that would play her, you know, they talked about the people who would play Tom, and it's like, as far as my mom is concerned, it's already there. She's just got to get there.
23:30 Speaker 01 But as we know, Susan never did get there. Susan drifted away from both Lacey and Tom. She drifted away from Mayfield, slipping further into depression.
23:41 Speaker 16 Found out later, she was doing meth, which I never even a million years would have thought.
23:46 Speaker 06 Towards the end?
23:47 Speaker 16 Yeah.
23:48 Speaker 01 Eventually, Susan left Ray's life as well, but not before landing a final blow.
23:55 Speaker 16 She told me around the end that she apologized because she could never feel it for me, for a son.
24:06 Speaker 06 Like parental love?
24:07 Speaker 16 She didn't know how to love me as her child.
24:11 Speaker 06 That's really tough.
24:13 Speaker 16 Yeah.
24:14 Speaker 01 After that, Susan and Ray were basically estranged. One of the last times he saw her, he was shocked by how much her health had deteriorated.
24:26 Speaker 16 I've seen her weaker than I've ever seen her. You know, I've seen her disheveled. You know, my mom was never like that.
24:33 Speaker 01 On July 27, 2018, Susan crashed her car. The responding officer thought she was drunk, and he arrested her. It turned out that she'd had a stroke. She suffered another stroke in her jail cell and never woke up.
24:51 Speaker 16 I found out that happened and that she was in the hospital, and I went to go see her, but she was unconscious. It just sucks because you never, I didn't get a chance to make up with her. You always think you'll have one more chance, you know? But I didn't, and she didn't either.
25:11 Speaker 06 What would you want to say to her if you had that chance?
25:17 Speaker 16 I guess just that I love her.
25:24 Speaker 01 In spite of everything Susan did, in spite of everything Ray now knows, she's still his mom. And of course, Ray was left with a terrible burden and still struggles with her legacy, and specifically, her lasting impact on Quincy.
25:40 Speaker 16 I just feel so sorry. I'm just so sorry for him. There's nothing I could say that could undo or change anything that my mother's done.
25:52 Speaker 01 As it turned out, Ray would end up doing something incredible, something that would give Quincy his best shot at freedom yet.
26:08 Speaker 01 Remember back before Quincy's 2008 trial? How Susan refused to send his defense team all of her hard drives and email correspondence? Well, once Ray started working with Alice's colleagues at Blink Films, they didn't just realize Susan was a liar. They realized they had the means to expose her wrongdoing and perhaps get Quincy a retrial.
26:34 Speaker 17 What these emails were, were conversations between Susan Galbraith and Tom Mangold, and Susan Galbraith and the KBI. And the emails, to me, were shocking. If, during Quincy's trial, I think if they'd known the extent of Susan's involvement in this case and influence on law enforcement, it might have changed the outcome for Quincy. And so the next stage was, well, we need to give this evidence to someone. And there was this ethical obligation to give it to the Innocence Project that were working to get Quincy out of prison. So that's what we did.
27:13 Speaker 01 The person who they turned them over to was Miranda Hellman, Quincy's attorney at the Kentucky Innocence Project.
27:21 Speaker 18 And so when those emails came through, I, it took a while, it took a minute. There was a shock factor to it of, there's something to this.
27:30 Speaker 01 Miranda had always felt Susan was a major factor in the prosecution's case, but was never quite sure how.
27:38 Speaker 18 So we spent a straight 24 hours, I'm pretty sure I didn't sleep that night, going through cataloguing, trying to put these emails back in order.
27:46 Speaker 01 As she sorted through these 300 or so emails, it was like a key turning in a lock. Suddenly, she understood. She also finally understood why it was that more information hadn't been available to Quincy's original defense team.
28:03 Speaker 18 Another piece of these emails really pointed to her working with the KBI agents to ensure that as little information got turned over to Quincy's attorneys. And so once I saw the other side of the coin, the backside of the coin was skeezy. It was slimy. It was meetings in a diner about how to not have to turn over information to a subpoena.
28:29 Speaker 01 With the emails in hand and witnesses now recanting, Miranda petitioned for a new evidentiary hearing for Quincy Cross. And in October 2025, she was successful. The hearing was eventually scheduled by Judge Tyler Gill for three days over late November and December of the same year. Time was against them, but Miranda hoped they finally had enough grounds to warrant a retrial.
28:55 Speaker 18 Quincy met a perfect storm when this investigation and trial happened. Now that he has his evidentiary hearing and, and all of this new evidence has been presented very thoroughly, I'm hoping that the, you know, that this is the perfect storm, the good perfect storm that comes at the end for him.
29:22 Speaker 01 It's November 24, 2025, one day before the new hearing is due to begin. The big news is that the judge will focus on the recantations of four women who testified against Quincy in 2008, including the prosecution's two crucial eyewitnesses, Venetia Stubblefield and Victoria Caldwell, both of whom confessed to being accomplices to the crime and took reduced sentences in exchange for testifying against the others. Testimony that they have both admitted now was false. Our producer Alice sits down with Venetia, who's apprehensive about seeing the former KBI agents at the hearing.
30:03 Speaker 15 It's false to see them today. I would tell them the same thing they told me, that I'm gonna see two of them that you rot in prison by lethal injection, like you did me and my mother. Then you sit there and made a threat, saying that you'll see that we'll spend the rest of our life in prison and that we'll die in prison by lethal injection. I have no respect for you at all, period. And that's what they did to me and my mom and my family. They threatened us.
30:29 Speaker 01 Venetia remembers the 2007 jury and interviews like they were yesterday.
30:35 Speaker 15 The KBI, like when they were doing my interview and stuff, it was like they were talking to me and we were talking, but then like off camera and off record, they were sitting here and coaching me and coercing me then to say, this is what you're gonna say and this is what you're gonna say.
30:50 Speaker 01 So wait a second. The KBI stopped and started this videotaped interview? That is a huge red flag. If what Venetia says is true, that would explain a lot. We already heard clips of those agents practically telling the girls what to say on camera. I can only imagine what was said while it was turned off. Venetia is now driven by the need to right the injustice and account for the harm she contributed to, starting with the Curran's.
31:20 Speaker 15 I'm sorry for everything that has, any kind of harm that has came to y'all. I truly, deeply apologize for everything that has happened. And I hope that they can get some closure and they find the answers that they need. But for the most part, I'm so, so sorry for your loss.
31:40 Speaker 01 Venetia blames much of this on Susan's meddling.
31:43 Speaker 15 I'm glad she's dead. She got what she deserved.
31:48 Speaker 15 Because of look at all the harm that you've done to everybody else. Look at all the harm and dangerous things that you caused to everybody and their families as well.
31:56 Speaker 01 The other witness who had been called to testify is, of course, Victoria Caldwell.
32:04 Speaker 01 Now, one of the new pieces of evidence submitted for this hearing was a statement made to the Kentucky Innocence Project lawyers in 2023, where Victoria recanted her original testimony. However, she's refused to put that recantation in a signed affidavit. Now, they understand that Victoria has been subject to a lot of pressure by the prosecutors. But Quincy's defense is hoping now is finally the moment she'll recant under oath on the witness stand. Not surprisingly, Victoria was reluctant to speak with any media around the time of the hearing. Our producer, Alice, had been trying to get an interview with her for months, when...
32:43 Speaker 19 Now tap on Add Contact button and search for the contact you want to call and then tap on Merge button. Call recording has started.
32:51 Speaker 01 A few weeks after the hearing, Victoria finally answered.
32:55 Speaker 06 Hello, I'm so glad that I'm speaking to you today. We've been communicating for a while, right?
33:03 Speaker 19 Correct.
33:04 Speaker 06 And I didn't know if you would ever speak to me, so I'm super grateful that you've decided to speak with me.
33:12 Speaker 01 Victoria was a little nervous, but gradually opened up.
33:15 Speaker 06 Are you telling me the diary was fabricated?
33:18 Speaker 19 Yes.
33:18 Speaker 06 So you just, did they tell you what to write or?
33:22 Speaker 19 Um, I really can't say.
33:23 Speaker 06 Okay.
33:24 Speaker 19 That part.
33:25 Speaker 06 But all we can say is that the diary was fabricated.
33:29 Speaker 19 It definitely is.
33:32 Speaker 01 The diary they're discussing was a piece of evidence produced in the 2008 trial that appeared to contain a written confession by Victoria implicating Quincy.
33:43 Speaker 06 Jeff Burton, had you met him before?
33:46 Speaker 19 Never.
33:48 Speaker 01 And that's not all. What about Quincy?
33:50 Speaker 06 Have you met him?
33:52 Speaker 19 Never.
33:53 Speaker 06 You've never met Quincy Cross?
33:55 Speaker 19 No.
33:56 Speaker 06 Okay. How did that story come about if you'd never met Quincy?
34:02 Speaker 19 I feel like we really had it out for him, and I don't know why.
34:08 Speaker 01 On the phone call with Alice, Victoria also claimed she was threatened by then KBI Agent Lee Wise to repeat the Quincy murder story or face death by lethal injection. She claimed the Quincy story was drilled into her and rehearsed before trial. Now, after all these years, Victoria says she wants to see Quincy exonerated for the crime he didn't commit. This is a lot to wrap your head around. We also have to say that even in our own conversations with these women, new details and new accusations came up that we can't fact check or easily corroborate. Their stories have changed a lot over years of retelling.
34:53 Speaker 01 At the very least, and most importantly, in my opinion, these are not reliable witnesses, certainly not witnesses on which a conviction should rest. Also, I have to say, it takes some courage to come forward now. Legally, both these women could face charges for perjury if it's deemed that they lied on the stand in 2008. As far as I can see, they really have nothing to gain personally by speaking to us unless they're just trying to clear their conscience. Then again, speaking to podcast producers, which is not under oath, and then repeating these claims on the witness stand, which is under oath, two very different things entirely.
35:32 Speaker 20 Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10" once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at carvana.com.
36:03 Speaker 21 The wilderness can hide a lot, but it can't hide the truth forever. I'm Delia D'Amber, host of Park Predators, and every week I investigate true crime cases hidden in national parks, forests, and beaches. I follow every lead, every clue, and every overlooked detail. Because even when a trail seems to disappear, the truth has a way of resurfacing. Listen to Park Predators wherever you get your podcasts.
36:39 Speaker 01 On November 25th, 2025, Quincy's new evidentiary hearing begins.
36:46 Speaker 01 In a blow to Quincy's defense, Judge Gill has decided not to allow the emails between Tom and Susan to be used as new evidence at this point. They would need authentication to be admissible, which, given that Susan is dead and Tom is in the UK, would take time. So the pressure is now on the witnesses to go on the record with their recantations. The courtroom is packed: media, locals, the current and Cross families. Jessica's now-grown-up son Zion attends with his wife. Susan's son Ray also decides to attend the hearing, in spite of knowing how his mom is perceived. He's quiet and contemplative.
37:32 Speaker 22 I mean, I'm supposed to do this. If she were alive, she wouldn't want me cooperating with anybody the way I am, but I think where she's at now, I think she would want to rest in peace. And if there's any way that I can use the stuff that she has to bring peace to anybody, even her, that, you know, that's all worth it.
37:59 Speaker 01 Day one of the hearing gets off to a good start for Quincy, who is present. Sitting in his orange jumpsuit next to his defense team, he will remain silent, but he is watching carefully. A reminder to those on the stand that it's his life, his future, that's at stake. One of the minor witnesses, another Mayfield woman, was just a 12-year-old girl in 2000 and was a new mom at the age of 19, when she was compelled to testify against Quincy Cross, testimony she now recants under oath.
38:32 Speaker 02 Has Mr. Cross ever confessed to you that he killed Jessica? No. Has Quincy Cross ever confessed to you that he had any involvement in Jessica's murder? No.
38:48 Speaker 01 Next up is Venetia. She takes the stand and she lets loose. More than just recanting, she comes out and accuses law enforcement of coercing her.
39:00 Speaker 15 And everything that I testified to was a lie. Because I was forced to say it. And I was threatened to say it. So you testified, effectively testified falsely then? Yes, because I was told to say the things that I said.
39:17 Speaker 01 I'll repeat that for you. "Everything that I testified to was a lie." She repeats her allegation that KBI agents Lee Wise and Bob O'Neill told her what to say and threatened her and her family. If the judge finds this testimony reliable, this is a huge moment for Quincy. As day one comes to a close, everyone's thoughts turn to tomorrow and whether Victoria Caldwell will do the same.
39:47 Speaker 01 It's day two of the hearing. The courtroom is settled and proceedings have begun.
39:53 Speaker 01 A door opens quietly and a late arrival hurries in. It's Victoria, accompanied by her husband.
40:02 Speaker 01 There are looks and whispers in the gallery. Many didn't think she'd turn up. And the dramatics aren't over. Victoria is called to the stand, but after answering a few basic questions, confirming who she is, she decides to exercise her Fifth Amendment rights to remain silent.
40:21 Speaker 02 I exercise my rights to remain silent at this point.
40:25 Speaker 02 Did you hear people talking about Jessica Carr's murder at her school? Yeah, I exercise my rights to remain silent. And are you invoking your Fifth Amendment privilege, ma'am? Yes.
40:36 Speaker 01 Victoria has decided not to repeat her recantation on the stand at this time.
40:43 Speaker 01 The judge dismisses her, but as Victoria hurries out of the courtroom, Venetia leaps up and explodes in a rage. In the end, Venetia has to be held back from attacking her.
40:55 Speaker 15 She had every right to sit there and tell the truth, but she didn't. And she still, and they let her go? No, I ain't got no respect in that department. They took everything in my power not to punch her. Because I really wanted to beat her ass in this courtroom. At the end of the day, she ruined a lot of people's lives, something like that.
41:12 Speaker 01 It's a blow for Quincy, no doubt about that.
41:16 Speaker 01 The hearing resumes a couple of weeks later for a third and final day. The defense attorney now turns her attention to the former KBI agents accused of coercing the witnesses in order to produce the murder narrative against Quincy Cross, Lee Wise and Bob O'Neil. On the stand, former Agent Wise is clearly rattled and repeatedly loses his temper, shouting over Quincy's attorney. Eventually, the judge stands up and intervenes, as you heard at the beginning of this episode.
41:46 Speaker 03 I gotta get your attention just a second. But I can't let you do that.
41:56 Speaker 01 Later, the defense continues to question Lee Wise's interviewing technique.
42:03 Speaker 02 Are you familiar with the read technique of interrogation? Yeah, I don't use it, but I know you're talking. Do you use some of the technique?
42:11 Speaker 01 I won't get into the weeds, but the read technique is a controversial, highly confrontational method for eliciting confessions from suspects. It's also known to produce false confessions, especially in the case of vulnerable individuals.
42:27 Speaker 02 Do you use some of the technique? That are called in the read technique? Not really. What do you mean, not really? Somebody had some. What do you mean, not really? I said, not really. All right, sir. I'm gonna try really hard to ask you a question and to ask it directly. I'm gonna ask you to listen to my question and respond to that, so that we don't do this back and forth in the courtroom over each other, okay?
42:54 Speaker 01 But the back and forth does go on. Former KBI Agent Lee Wise denies everything. His former partner, Bob O'Neil, is calmer under questioning, but also doesn't give away much.
43:11 Speaker 01 After three days, the evidence is completed. In total, four of the prosecution's original witnesses, women whose testimony helped secure Quincy's conviction, told the court that parts of what they said in 2008 were false, pressured, or shaped by investigators. Testimony that supported a narrative many now believe was heavily influenced, if not authored, by Susan Galbraith. But will it be enough for Judge Gill to set aside Quincy's conviction? Jeff Burton, the white guy Susan accused of disposing of Jessica's body, who served seven years for a crime he has always insisted he didn't commit, shares his point of view outside the courtroom.
43:53 Speaker 05 I was excited for what has happened today, and things are looking bright. But I am nervous as well, because I do know, Cometha, Kentucky, obviously, they don't, everyone will admit that they've done wrong, or messed up, or whatever.
44:10 Speaker 01 For Ray, though, this has been a reckoning with who his mother was, with what she did, and with the part he now plays in shaping a new narrative. By stepping forward, by allowing Susan's story to be examined, Ray is part of something different. A chance to rewrite at least some small part of what went wrong in Mayfield, something Jeff Burton and others are keen to thank him for.
44:39 Speaker 06 Can I introduce you to someone?
44:41 Speaker 05 Yeah.
44:42 Speaker 06 This is Raymond, Susan's son.
44:45 Speaker 05 Oh, okay, okay. It's a pleasure to meet you, man. I'm John Poole. How are you? You turned over a lot of the stuff to the thing, man. That's beautiful, man. Yes, sir. Thank you, man. Thank you for doing that. Yeah, really. Really greatly appreciate it, man. So hopefully, we can get this thing busted open all the way.
45:03 Speaker 01 As Alice bids farewell to Ray, she can see the emotion etched onto his face. After the guilt Ray has carried all these years, Jeff's words of thanks hit hard.
45:14 Speaker 22 It was nice to finally meet Jeff. You know, they've, all these people have been rent-free in my head for, you know, so long. Now, it's good to, you know, interact with and see him face-to-face. To be told, "Thank you," and, I mean, it's a big, it's a big deal.
45:37 Speaker 01 By the time this episode airs, we'll likely know the outcome of the Abdian Chery hearing. Will Judge Gill discredit the recantations, leaving Quincy incarcerated for life? Or will he grant a retrial, or even an exoneration, in a case that would now be extraordinarily difficult to prosecute, with witnesses who have recanted in some form, and little forensic evidence to support it? For 17 years, he's maintained his innocence, years he'll never get back. As his sister told us, for Quincy, the stakes are not abstract.
46:16 Speaker 14 We long for his presence at the house. Everybody. My grandma went to her grave. That's all she talked about. When people come over, that's all she talked about. Look how they done my little grandson. Look what they done done to my baby. Look what they done to Quincy. When we cross over the state line, it's like, oh, my God, what are we going to expect? It's scary.
46:43 Speaker 01 But whatever happens in court, whether or not Quincy gets a retrial, one fact will not change. Jessica Curran is still dead, and the seven-year investigation into her death that was warped by Susan Galbraith produced a narrative that placed her at the center, right where Jessica should have been. This podcast is in part a cautionary tale about what happens when the desire for a compelling story begins to eclipse the facts, when narrative overtakes humanity, when the people pulled in become characters, when storylines replace real lives. Nowhere is that more painfully felt than with the Currens.
47:27 Speaker 01 For 25 years, Jessica's family has watched the story of her murder twist and mutate, reshaped by rumor, reinvention, interference, and false hope. They have never received clarity, an apology, or justice.
47:46 Speaker 06 What's the truth?
47:48 Speaker 12 That's what we're trying to find. That's what we don't know. Who killed Jessica Curran? Because honestly, today, we still don't know.
48:04 Speaker 01 At the time of release, we have not received a response from the Kentucky State Police, the Office of the Attorney General of Kentucky, former State Trooper Sam Stieger, or former KBI Agent Lee Wise regarding allegations reported in this episode. A legal representative for former KBI Agent Bob O'Neill responded by email, saying he, quote, "categorically denies the narrative and the specific allegations."
48:37 Speaker 01 This is My Mother's Lies, an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, hosted by me, Beth Karas. From Message Heard, Alice Arnold is our investigator producer, Robyn Simon, our producer, Macalester Beckson, our series producer, Thiago Diaz, our assistant producer. Alan Lear is our supervising sound editor, supported by sound editors Lizzy Andrews and Ivan Eastly, with original composition by Mike Mainz. From Sony Music Entertainment, our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. From Blink Films, our executive producer is Justine Kershaw. And a big thanks to the whole Sony Music Entertainment team.
49:26 Speaker 23 I'm Sarah Kaelin. This season of ID's Who Killed Angel Harris investigates the 2011 unsolved murder of a 31-year-old woman in Gainesville, Florida. It was definitely shocking.
49:40 Speaker 24 Either it's a bullet hitting a bullet, or there's a lot of really strong coincidences here.
49:45 Speaker 23 More likely than not, this is a serial killer. Listen to Who Killed Angel Harris wherever you get your podcasts.
Previous My Mother’s Lies | 5. The Confessions Next Introducing . . . U R NEXT Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated