What She Buried | 7. A Fly in the Soup

The full picture of Kwaneta starts to come into focus, despite her efforts to distance herself from the podcast. - For more of Justine’s work, read Unreasonable Women, which follows three women who have been punished for defending themselves. The result of seven years of reporting inside U. S. prisons, it's a gripping, urgent look at how survivors are criminalized, called "required reading for anyone who cares about women and justice," by Bookpage, "remarkable... riveting," by Kirkus, and "true crime at its finest," by Booklist. Available now on Amazon or Bookshop.org. - Want more true crime? Binge over 60 ad-free series now by subscribing to ⁠The Binge+⁠. You’ll unlock over 60 true crime series instantly, get early access to drops on the first of every month, and hear exclusive bonus episodes. Search for the channel on Apple Podcasts or head to ⁠GetTheBinge.com⁠. For behind-the-scenes details, join our free newsletter at ⁠Patreon.com/TheBinge⁠. What She Buried is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media. Follow @sonypodcasts and discover more at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices at podcastchoices.com/adchoices. The Binge — feed your true crime obsession. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 0:30Speaker 00

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• 1:07Speaker 01

  I'm on the phone. Be quiet, be quiet. They're telling me that somebody's generated this tear gas. Oh, God.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  There's an old adage: A journalist has never met a guilty prisoner. It refers to the fact that most prisoners go to great lengths to convince reporters of their wrongful incarceration. But it also refers to the fact that most journalists are trying to make an argument about our crooked criminal legal system. And the only way we can think to do it is by talking about entirely innocent people. But why do you need to tell the stories of the innocent to show that the system is corrupt? What does someone like Quinetta deserve? What do the women around her deserve? I would argue, nothing like what I heard on this last call with Quinetta.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Nothing like what the state of Texas does in the dark corners of its prisons or behind the scenes in its courtrooms. Quinetta's personal feelings don't negate the larger truths at play here. Truths that expose our system for being murky, cruel, punitive, and full of people who have had so much bad done to them, and who, for the most part, then also did bad. Quinetta was being held in a place where the windows were nailed shut, where there was no air conditioning, where temperatures hit 127 degrees and people died of the heat. Everything smelled like raw sewage. People were breaking down.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  One woman spent all day singing, another screaming, another cutting herself. During this particular call, a woman was being extracted from a nearby cell with the help of some sort of spray.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Oh, they're gonna do her dirty. They're outside the door. They all have masks on. At her cell door, sometimes they'll talk to the girl, it's coming to the door, while somebody else goes around to the window, and the window's up, and they'll double gas her. They'll gas her from the outside, and they'll gas her from the inside.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  Can I hear her? Is that her screaming?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  That's her.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Quinetta didn't know who the woman was. She called out to a friend down the wing to ask what was going on.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Monica! What's going on? She's what? She was refusing to return the population.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  You could hear the frenetic energy, like the concrete walls were vibrating. I thought of Quinetta's first letter to me. Everyone called women in prison monsters. But, she wrote, "I've yet to encounter monsters, although I've met plenty of women with mental illness, untreated and undiagnosed." The woman who was screaming, she'd apparently been in solitary for a short stint. Now, the guards were telling her it was time to leave. But the woman wouldn't budge.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  They're taking off the helmets now.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  What does that mean?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  That means that they're not gonna gas her, because she's down here temporarily, probably as a result of a fight or bad haircut, I don't know. She's for population. And she was yelling how she's scared. She don't wanna leave. So they brought all of them in here to try to force her, like a cell extraction. Oh, she's young. Who is she, Monica? What's her name? There's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Twelve people going out. Now, they don't have no staff for us to take showers, but they get staff for all this.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  So they're just taking her back to general population?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yes, and she, her face red, like she's been crying. She's scared.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  She's twisting her body around, trying to resist. But she's outnumbered. A dozen guards with gear versus one girl. The guards hoist her up and march her away. Of course, from her cell, Quinetta could only peer down the hallway, just a bit. Because of her failing eyesight, she couldn't see anything too clearly. And in a very different way, neither could I.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media, this is What She Buried. I'm Justine Vanderloon. Episode 7. A Fly in the Soup.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Quinetta was in the opposite position of that young woman who was carried away by the guards. At the time of our last phone call in February 2024, she was desperate to get out of solitary, back to general population. The reason she couldn't, I'd learned, was due to yet another maneuver that showed the lengths to which Quinetta was prepared to go to get free, and the lengths to which Texas would go to punish her. It was 2015. Quinetta was employed at the Braille facility. It's an elite gig. Prisoners transcribe and emboss textbooks. Which means that, unlike almost everyone else in prison, the Braille facility workers

• 6:48Speaker 00

  have access to computers and printing materials. During the time that Quinetta was working at the Braille facility, two documents arrived at the headquarters of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, the TDCJ. They were signed orders from a judge, a judge who had recently taken over the courtroom in Dallas, where Quinetta's murder case had been tried back in 2009. These documents stated that the prison sentence of Quinetta Yatris Harris had been reduced

• 7:23Speaker 00

  from 50 years to eight years, which is exactly how long Quinetta had, at the time, been incarcerated. In other words, the document stated that Quinetta had served her time and should be released immediately. An administrative assistant at TDCJ flagged the document and called the judge's courtroom in Dallas for confirmation. The clerk who answered the phone said the judge had never issued the order. Sounded like a forgery. TDCJ promptly put Quinetta in solitary. To former Assistant District Attorney Josh Healey, who had prosecuted Quinetta, this

• 8:07Speaker 00

  was all just further evidence of her depravity.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  She would've been out in society, and she's the type that would've either gone into hiding or done something bad again.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  It's kind of creative. I kind of went, wow, that's, that's pretty good.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  Forge judge's orders are in the eye of the beholder, I guess. That's Richard Franklin, one of Quinetta's defense attorneys.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  If you try to escape a prison, you go through a wall, or you hurt somebody, or you kidnap somebody, that's one thing, but this is, this is kind of Mickey Mouse to me. If that's why she's in Ag Sec and that's the only reason, I don't like it at all. I think that's bad on their part.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  I've read the 232-page offense report produced by TDCJ's Office of the Inspector General. It raises some questions. Like, if Quinetta forged the document, how did she get it out of the prison so that it could be sent to TDCJ headquarters? Who had she convinced to mail it off? How had she even communicated her plans to that person? As far as I could see, investigators never were able to get any definitive answers. Quinetta maintained her innocence, and she had a theory for how a judge's order drastically

• 9:31Speaker 00

  reducing her sentence ended up getting written, signed, and mailed to the proper authorities. The theory went like this. Another woman who worked at the Braille workshop, she did it. This woman was a member of the Aryan Sisterhood. And this Aryan sister had tried to free Quinetta as a test case. If it had worked, if Quinetta had gotten out, the Aryan sister would've forged other papers, presumably for her white nationalist friends. Quinetta did eventually plead guilty to the forgery offense. She maintained to me that she only did so because she hoped it would get her out of

• 10:14Speaker 00

  solitary. There it was again, a pattern. Quinetta got desperate, so Quinetta came up with a scheme, which she then denied. At the same time, TDCJ was not treating Quinetta properly. Quinetta had been placed in solitary for an offense that TDCJ could never quite prove, and a nonviolent one at that. The United Nations has defined more than 15 consecutive days in solitary confinement as torture. Quinetta was left in solitary confinement for more than 3,000 consecutive days. So.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Quinetta had bad done to her. She did bad. She had more bad done to her. And on it went, a vicious circle. For as long as I'd been working on this project, I'd been trying to come to terms with what it all meant.

• 11:25Speaker 00

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• 12:09Speaker 04

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Quinetta told me that the only way prisoners in solitary can experience touch is in the exercise cages. There are a couple pens next to each other, and sometimes you get an hour to move around in them, alone. If you climb about 20 feet up, there, at the top, there's a little gap in the fencing. If you balance precariously, and someone else in the next cage does the exact same thing, then you can press your fingertips to another person's. But, Quinetta added, that's for the younger prisoners. She wasn't

• 13:24Speaker 00

  climbing anywhere. So, no physical touch. But she was also separated from information. She had no internet, no way to get reliable daily news. Her radio signal was shaky. She could only read books that people sent in, and magazines approved by the state. I knew that when Quinetta was told something inside prison, she wasn't really able to verify it. She couldn't call out without being monitored, or talk without being overheard. She had to go with her instincts.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  When Quinetta sent me that email telling me she was withdrawing cooperation, I wasn't sure what to think. Had someone scared her? Was she having regrets about the things she'd said? And then concocting yet another elaborate ploy, rather than just, say, communicating her trepidation to me? While I was trying to get my bearings, I started reaching out to women who had been incarcerated with Quinetta. I wanted an inside perspective on what Quinetta was like in prison, and how TDCJ treated her. Joy Brenby lives in Houston now, but she spent a decade in prison in Gatesville, much of it in solitary confinement alongside Quinetta. On a scale

• 14:48Speaker 00

  of 1 to 10, Joy told me, she knows Quinetta at a 10.

• 14:53Speaker 05

  Do you think to them, her being knowledgeable is more dangerous than somebody who kills an officer?

• 14:58Speaker 06

  Of course.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Dangerous, because Quinetta has knowledge about how the levers of power work at TDCJ.

• 15:05Speaker 06

  And that's a threat, because you know how many inmates are there that are getting messed over, and don't know who to go tell, or the proper chain to command, or just think that they can't go to nobody outside of what's on the unit she knows?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  The majority of people in prison, some estimates say around 75%, don't even have a high school diploma. More than half of the women in Texas prisons have mental illness. It's not easy for them to advocate for themselves. And a disempowered population benefits TDCJ. Then, someone like Quinetta comes along. She helps people prepare legal documents. She offers to read over their paperwork. So inside the prison, even from solitary, Quinetta became kind of indispensable.

• 15:57Speaker 06

  We called her Detroit, Ms. Detroit.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  Is she kind?

• 16:00Speaker 06

  She's like a mother. She's loving. She's a mentor. Everybody likes her.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Joy told me that she had a business: body butter and hair grease. And Quinetta had made it all possible. Had hooked her up with an accountant, and had got her all set up, so that when Joy walked free, she had a way to make money. Quinetta didn't benefit from this at all. She just did it.

• 16:24Speaker 05

  For real?

• 16:25Speaker 06

  Yes, I own a tax company here.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  And she helped you set that up?

• 16:31Speaker 06

  Yes, well, her friend. Her friend helped me set it up.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Joy wasn't the only woman with a story like this. Others told me how Ms. Detroit comforted them when they were in crisis, provided clothing, or sanitary pads, or food. She tied the items onto floss, and fished them out between the bars, down the halls.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Quinetta couldn't have expected anything from these women. She knew they had nothing to give her. Nobody was watching. Quinetta never mentioned any of this to me. She just helped.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  You can charge a lot in prison for helping, particularly for providing highly skilled help, like vetting legal paperwork. But everyone told me, Quinetta did it all for free.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  And something about all this, it seems to have made the TDCJ higher-ups very upset with Quinetta Harris.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  They be calling herself very frequently, and then standing there for like hours, just like combing through all her information. They even got her mail, like, they be saying that they watching everybody mail. TDC just be letting whatever come in. But like, in the mailroom, they'll send them a list of names that are hot.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Hot, meaning, read everything this person sends out and gets in. The orders to do this, Joy says, came from up high.

• 18:00Speaker 06

  Whenever I say "they," I mean administration. Anybody who ever does anything to her as far as like, case-wise investigations, it's always administration. Administration comes and raises herself. Administration is the ones that be tying up her money when it comes in. All the stuff that I'm saying, it all happens through administration.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Joy's depiction of Quinetta and her treatment by TDCJ matched up with what Quinetta herself said, again and again. They had it out for her. And I do think TDCJ views Quinetta as a threat. She's savvy, she's informed, and she writes and speaks out about what's happening in there. So the idea that they would force her to drop out of this podcast, to my mind, and in my experience, that was a real possibility. My producer, Eric, emailed the TDCJ press office and asked them about Quinetta's claims. Had Quinetta been directed

• 19:02Speaker 00

  to withdraw from the podcast? Had she been told it would be better for her if I destroyed all my interviews and notes? The press office wrote, "These statements were not made to Quinetta Harris." I was expecting that answer. Because on the one hand, if TDCJ did exactly what Quinetta claimed they did, it's quite likely that they would deny everything. And on the other hand, if Quinetta made the whole thing up, TDCJ would also deny everything.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  I think that Quinetta knew how this would all play out. If I had to guess, I'd guess that she decided on her own to cut me off. Why? Maybe, after five years of corresponding, she worried she'd said too much. Maybe she was ashamed. Maybe she was just being strategic, now that she was a leading prison journalist. Would the media people who gave her awards and published her work be so eager to work with her if they knew the more convoluted version of her life? She'd encouraged me to report, told me to find her ghosts, to talk to them. And I had. And while I suspect that this submerged part of Quinetta was

• 20:24Speaker 00

  desperate to come clean, another part of her was desperate to keep up the charade. At a certain point, we both knew that this podcast wouldn't, couldn't, go like we'd hoped.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  A month after all of this, in April 2024, Quinetta was finally released back to general population. There, she started writing about a new topic: true crime. For her first piece, the headline read, "True Crime Shows Exploit and Lie About Women Like Me." The genre was racist and sexist, she argued. Then, Quinetta and her lawyer co-authored a Law Review article called, "The True Harms of True Crime: The Abstract Mentioned Podcasts First."

• 21:21Speaker 07

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• 21:44Speaker 07

  Still haven't started? Hey, better late than ever. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Quinetta said that killing Michael Giles was a mistake. She wished it had never happened. She told me that if his family thought she deserved 50 years, she'd take it. But she never sounded terribly sorry about actually killing him. She once wrote to me, "I didn't travel 3,000 miles planning to shoot him. He had put me through so much, and I believe he would have killed us both." Even though Quinetta still resented Michael Giles, she seemed genuinely sorry for his mother. She told me, "No mother should have to bury their child.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  I don't wish that on nobody." Michael Giles' mother was named Janie Smith. Janie never recovered from learning that her son, her favorite child, had been killed.

• 23:19Speaker 06

  By the time the trial came around, my mom had stopped eating and had lost so much weight that her doctors had us put her in a rehab center, and they had to put the tube in her stomach to feed her and stuff.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  Gwen Haney, Michael's sister, said that even before Michael's disappearance, Janie was fragile. She was exhibiting signs of dementia. Gwen says she'd also had a mental breakdown. Once Michael's body was discovered, Janie refused to really face what had happened.

• 23:51Speaker 06

  She never would talk about Mike. I think in her mind, she just pretended like he was still in the military. You know what I mean? Because he was there for so long.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  To Gwen, the most painful part wasn't just that Quinetta had killed Michael. It's that she desecrated his memory. In covering her tracks, in the cleanup, Quinetta had destroyed everything, even things that held only sentimental value. His family was left with nothing.

• 24:23Speaker 06

  I don't know what she did with all his military medals he had. She just threw him away. His life just trashed everything. We didn't get anything. He had my family reunion videotapes, VHSs. He was transferring to make copies for all the family members, you know? And just all of it, gone. Just gone.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Michael's money was gone, too. Money he used to help his mom and other relatives.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  My mom hired a lawyer to do a civil suit. She gave him a $5,000 retainer, and nothing ever came of it. I found out that he had passed away, and the new lawyer knew nothing about it. So, nothing ever came back to my mom. No, nothing whatsoever.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Over the years, Janie deteriorated further. She may not have spoken about her son's death, but it haunted her.

• 25:22Speaker 06

  And I'll tell you, nobody knows this, really and truly, except for immediate family, for the most part, maybe some of my neighbors and all. My mom screamed. I got videos of her screaming to the top of her lung. From the time she'd wake up in the morning until she goes to bed at night, I can't breathe. She did that for at least 13, 14, 15, five years straight. And I think that she believed that Mike was buried alive or something, you know?

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Janie Smith died in 2017. These days, for Gwen, there's just silence and absence.

• 26:06Speaker 06

  I remember a victim impact statement. I remember talking about, okay, I used to make a German chocolate cake from scratch every Christmas. And nobody ate coconut except for me and Mike. So Mike would come over, it was always Christmas, he'd come over, he'd get half the cake. Two, three days later, he'd call me, "You got any more cake?" So, ever since he had disappeared, I hadn't made that cake, because nobody else ate it except me and him. And I remember the judge telling me I should make the cake. So it took me, ooh, at least 10 years.

• 26:51Speaker 06

  And now I make it every Christmas again. And when I take that first bite, I say how good it is to him. I wish he was here to share it with me.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Gwen has a generally calm demeanor, but beneath it, there's rage.

• 27:14Speaker 06

  I will tell you, though, I know prisons ain't got air conditioners. When it's hot out in the summer, and it's 110 degrees, I know her ass is sitting down there, she's probably smaller than lord knows what now, but I hope they bring her out in a black bag. I really and truly do. Nothing's gonna bring him back, and she's still got another judge to face when she leaves this world. That's between her and God. And I really hope that before she leaves this world, that she feels the pain that my mother had to deal with.

• 27:56Speaker 06

  I hope she feels the pain that my mother had to deal with.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  On my final call with Quinetta, we spoke about her three children. It had been nearly a decade since she'd seen them in person. Do you remember your last visit with your kids?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yep, 2015.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  And what was that like?

• 28:14Speaker 01

  It was nice when they killed me, because they didn't recognize me. And I was like, oh my goodness. So, yeah, that was shocking.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Before that, they hadn't visited for four years. It was hard to get everyone from Michigan to Texas, and expensive. Quinetta held her kids' hands.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I remember they were so hungry, and I felt so bad, because they were thinking that they would provide them with something, because they can't go out and get anything to eat. They just gave them like cookies and like punch, you know? And like a chip star. And I felt like shit. I'm like, this is what you gotta do to see me.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  I couldn't help but make a connection between the timing of that last visit and the forgery incident that landed Quinetta in solitary. Less than six weeks. She'd been a model prisoner for years. Then, she walked into the room, and her kids didn't recognize her. They were hungry, and she couldn't feed them. Of course, Quinetta wouldn't fully admit that she'd even done the forgery. It was among the many things she denied, things she just wouldn't deal with. And those denials, those lies, that was why we were in this hall of mirrors, where we

• 29:38Speaker 00

  could never tell what was real and what was a reflection. In that last call, I was trying to find a way out.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  This story, you start trying to do it, and then you're inside of it. Like, and you're like, I don't want to be in it. But what I think is like, sort of, happened is that all the truths and all the lies and all the real things that happened and all the fake things that happened have gotten like tangled together. There's reasons people do things. But if you have like lies in there or inactresses or things, then you can't even work out the reasons. So that's what I'm trying to like, figure out, like, how to like unravel it into as close to what like it really was.

• 30:31Speaker 05

  Because otherwise, like, any truth you say is, not you, but it's corrupted.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Like the old people say, if you lie about one thing, everything is corrupt. Everything is a lie. It's a fly in the soup. You know? That's how they used to teach us when we were children. You just can't take the fly out of the soup and eat the soup. The whole soup's corrupted.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Who is Quinetta Harris? I asked that question to almost everyone I interviewed, including Quinetta herself. I got a different answer each time. But now I think the question itself was misguided, because she was always being defined by someone else, asked to conform to others' ideas about who she should be. And she didn't conform. Instead, she performed. She put on a mask. Once, in a long letter, she told me about her family history, about her childhood, about all the expectations weighing upon her to rise above stereotypes and circumstances.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  She wrote, "With longing, I thought, how lucky people are to only be themselves." I suppose that's something Quinetta never managed, to only be herself. But now, being herself would also mean facing herself. It would mean making an honest assessment of what she had done, who she had become, and where she wanted to go next.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  I'm gonna find out. I mean, it's past time.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  I didn't realize this would be our last call. The clock was running out. Texas prison phones turned off at exactly 8:00 PM.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  What's your phone time tomorrow?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  It might be about, maybe about 5:00. I'll try 5:00, my time.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  I had a whole list of questions for Quinetta, for when we talked again.

• 32:30Speaker 05

  So anyways, I'm just, I want to ask before it cuts off. So they, are you there?

• 32:45Speaker 04

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  What She Buried is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media. This show was reported and hosted by me, Justine Vanderloon. Eric Benson is the executive producer. Ashley Anne Krigbaum is the managing producer. Production assistance from Lane Rose, Josie Duffy Rice, Mosi Secret, Emily Martinez, Sheba Joseph, and Michael Meyer. The story editor is Matthew Share. The series was mixed in sound design by Garrett Tiedemann, with support from Ewan Lai Trumion. Fact checking by Matthew Giles. A special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren, Sabina Mara, and Destiny Dingle. From Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriades, and Matthew Share. If you enjoyed What She Buried, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:23Speaker 04

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.