Pod Insights The Binge Cases: Doctor Billions Watching You | 2. Danger Signs About this episode As fighting escalates at home, Alex promises herself to keep eyes on her stepfather. But containing him proves impossible.
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Transcript 4,859 words · 20 speakers
0:02 Speaker 00 Listen to all episodes of Watching You ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Binge: Feed your true crime obsession.
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0:46 Speaker 02 Detectives arrive at Juliana Redding's house in Santa Monica, California.
0:51 Speaker 03 There was no pulse.
0:52 Speaker 04 We knew that it wasn't an accident.
0:54 Speaker 02 An alleged murder-for-hire. Fraud to the tune of $150 million.
1:01 Speaker 05 I need to see the doctor, and I need to see the doctor right frickin' now.
1:04 Speaker 02 Do what he says, or else. From Sony Music Entertainment and Western Sound, this is Doctor's Orders. Available now on The Binge. Search for Doctor's Orders wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today.
1:25 Speaker 00 Hey, y'all. Wanted to let you know verbal abuse and domestic violence are a part of the story. It's a cautionary tale to listen to with caution.
1:37 Speaker 00 Leaving Georgia meant that the Liley family was on their own. They were away from the prying eyes of Nikki's sister Amy and her parents. Matt's problems were now out in the open.
1:51 Speaker 00 For one thing, he didn't see Alex as his own daughter. He wanted a child of his flesh and blood. When Nikki got pregnant and they moved to Mississippi, Matt was elated. Finally, he would have the family he wanted. He'd no longer be an outsider. But that, as you may have surmised, was not enough for him. Because Matt's obsessive need to surveil every aspect of the lives of the people he was closest to was taking over. Especially as the relationship between Matt and Alex only seemed to get worse. Matt resented that Alex was a priority for Nikki, more than him or their marriage.
2:36 Speaker 00 One of their fights unraveled in front of the whole family when he demanded Nikki stop helping her little kid blow her nose.
2:44 Speaker 06 Mom was pregnant with Amanda, and there was a lot of fighting in Mississippi. There was a particular memory that is burned in my brain.
2:58 Speaker 00 Alex was around six years old when they moved to central Mississippi, Coziesco. It's a tiny blip of a town, just about 7,000 people. The family's new home was near downtown, if you want to call it downtown, a small strip of businesses, homes packed neatly next to one another.
3:16 Speaker 06 It's one of my least favorite memories, but they had gotten into some huge fight about what I don't know. Most of their fights, they couldn't tell you what they were particularly about, other than they were just screaming and fighting. They got into it so much so that, I mean, she was like nine months pregnant, a 90-pound woman carrying like a nine-pound baby. She picked me up on her hip and she punched the glass. It was one of those doors, the top half of the door was glass panes. She punched it with her fist, punched the window out and screamed help. Blood running down her hands, glass everywhere. He took her pregnant with me on her hip. He shoved us and we both went flying on the floor because he didn't want her causing a scene with neighbors.
4:01 Speaker 00 You were close enough to your neighbors that you could hear them if they raised their voice, or they could hear you.
4:08 Speaker 06 You could hear somebody screaming.
4:10 Speaker 00 Alex and her mom hit the floor.
4:13 Speaker 06 And I remember in that moment, that was one of the pivotal moments for me that this man is dangerous. He was willing to push his pregnant wife and her daughter on the ground, on the floor, just to keep from anyone knowing what was going on. So I think for the rest of my life, it was like, I will never trust you. I will never, I will always have eyes on you.
4:39 Speaker 00 The arguments were louder, more intense. Alex was living in a war zone. You know, they say that children who are exposed to domestic violence have brains like people who have seen military combat. And Alex realized quickly that her mother was her responsibility.
4:59 Speaker 06 I had to grow up real fast. I had to go, crap, I have to protect my mom.
5:09 Speaker 00 From Sony Music Entertainment, you're listening to Watching You. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Episode two. Danger Signs.
5:25 Speaker 07 Ally here with cash when you need it. Like after that fantastic meal and it's time to tip your server and your wallet's empty. Don't be in Ally's got you covered with 75,000 fee-free ATMs nationwide. Ally Bank Member, FDIC.
5:50 Speaker 00 Nikki and Matt's first child, Amanda, was born after they'd arrived in Mississippi. And despite a harrowing birth, she was a ray of hope for Nikki and Matt. The promise of a better life. Nikki was thriving in her new job and as a result, wasn't around very much.
6:09 Speaker 08 Drive to the airport Sunday night, get back Friday night, spend the weekend, and then the next Sunday night, she's gone again for a week, traveling for work. So it was pretty much always just us and our dad.
6:23 Speaker 00 Amanda takes after her mom, same fair complexion, reddish blonde hair. She was Alex's baby doll, her little sister. Despite being on the road often, Nikki made time for Amanda.
6:37 Speaker 08 I played basketball, starting in like first, second grade-ish. Like every game, she was the loudest one in the stands. She was standing and cheering and yelling and like that continued. Every single game, she was always there.
6:52 Speaker 00 On the weeknights when Nikki was away, she'd check in.
6:55 Speaker 08 She would still call and we'd talk on the phone. "How's school? What are you doing? Did you do your homework?" Like she'd help us with homework over the phone. So I was bullied a lot in school. I was a smaller kid, I was smarter, I was in the gifted program. Our mom, growing up, she was the same way. She was the small, quiet, flat-chested girl. And she was like my rock and like being able to talk to her and like her genuinely understanding the pain I was feeling.
7:23 Speaker 00 And all the while, Nikki is putting food on the table. Matt still doesn't have a job, but to the outside world, he's the stay-at-home dad.
7:33 Speaker 00 He did, however, continue to stockpile equipment, enough to power a small security business. A business that didn't seem to be making any money. And what's more, Nikki was bankrolling the whole thing, tens of thousands of dollars of equipment. That and strange things happen at the house when Matt is left in charge.
7:59 Speaker 00 Strange things that Alex would notice. But Amanda was younger, she didn't know anything else. Like Matt's penchant for chasing kids around with a chainsaw, something he thought was funny.
8:15 Speaker 08 I don't think I ever really thought about it. Like, I think the, I don't even remember the first time it ever happened because it was kind of just one of those things of he did it very often.
8:24 Speaker 00 Think about that. Running after his kids with a live blade was just another Tuesday.
8:31 Speaker 08 It wasn't like, oh, he did it once and never again. It was probably six, seven, eight times. He's chased us around the house with a chainsaw. And it was one of those things where like, it almost became normal. You didn't necessarily think it was wrong at the time. And like, oh, this is just how things are. And if my dad thinks this is funny, then this must actually be funny, even though I'm scared.
9:00 Speaker 00 The best thing and the worst thing about children is that they can get used to anything. They adjust, start to tell themselves it must be normal because this is my dad.
9:14 Speaker 00 A few years after Amanda was born, her sister came, the third daughter of Nikki, Rebecca. Rebecca is in her early twenties now, and all three of Nikki's daughters bear a striking resemblance to her in different ways. But you can no doubt see it with Rebecca. She's got thick blonde curls and bright blue eyes. She's louder and in many ways, the most expressive of Nikki's girls. She lives in Virginia now. Her childhood was, of course, different than that of her older sisters. She didn't have that heavy history with Matt that Alex did. She remembers pool parties with neighborhood kids, riding bikes around the cul-de-sac.
9:55 Speaker 09 I remember like, as I got older and hearing them argue, seeing them argue, it became normal. That was what parents did. They fought and they threw things and they screamed and that was normal. And then it was like they were fine afterward.
10:13 Speaker 00 And often, the girls got roped into their arguments.
10:17 Speaker 09 He would bring us into it. I can't remember specifics, but yeah, he would pull us into the arguments all the time and like it would be against her, like it would be like him using us against her.
10:28 Speaker 00 Against Nikki, that is. Even Rebecca, the baby of the family, didn't escape her father's intense scrutiny.
10:36 Speaker 09 As I got older and he started to punish me more for like just random things. And I remember he would make me stand in the corner with my face facing the corner for hours, at least like two, three hours. I would have to be like standing facing the corner. And so I learned I could choose my corner. And so I chose the corner by my mom's desk because she would keep an eye on him. I would like let me know when he was coming and I could run back to the corner quickly. And she would like let me go sit down and like eat something and like just sit down because I'm standing in a corner for hours.
11:13 Speaker 00 Nikki clearly wasn't fully behind Matt's parenting methods. Amanda knew that. Even when their friends came over, Matt didn't check himself. He took out his chainsaw.
11:25 Speaker 08 I've only ever had one slumber party at our house. My dad did that. It's one of those things, kind of like we're at the time, like all a big group of girls over, like we're screaming and running like, oh, this is funny. And then I never had friends over again. And like, looking back, it's probably, oh, they told their parents that this man chased them around the house with a chainsaw. Now they don't want them at that house anymore.
11:51 Speaker 00 But this wasn't on Amanda's mind at the time. As far as she knew, her dad's behavior wasn't off and he wasn't a threat to her. He was the one who was always home, taking care of her. Even the computer stuff, she thought it was kind of cool.
12:07 Speaker 08 I would build computers with him from like, here's the case, here's the motherboard, here's the power supply, here's the CPU, and here's like how you install everything and set it up.
12:17 Speaker 00 And the cameras, the growing surveillance system around the house?
12:21 Speaker 08 It was definitely something that like felt normal to me. Growing up with it, it slowly like, it was probably. Five, over the course of like five years of like building up cameras until it was what it was. I always thought it was cool. He'd call us into his office and be like, "Oh, hey, look at, there was a deer on the front porch last night. Come look at this." Or, "Hey, there's a raccoon in the driveway."
12:47 Speaker 00 Amanda also understands that her dad's computer room is completely off limits. With baby sister Rebecca now exploring the house, Amanda has to keep her out of trouble.
12:58 Speaker 08 Rebecca kept running into our dad's office and like we weren't allowed in there. There's computer stuff, all of that. And in my mind, to stop a two-year-old from going anywhere, just shut the door. And so I was running to get ahead of Rebecca to close the door, and she had put her fingers like in the, like where the hinges are. And so when I slammed the door shut, her fingers were there. I ran and hid in the linen closet because I thought I was gonna get in trouble. Now they have to do a manhunt to find me because I'm hiding.
13:31 Speaker 00 Computers aren't the only thing Matt keeps in the house. Amanda remembers also, a gun.
13:39 Speaker 08 It was a 40 caliber revolver. It was named Baby.
13:45 Speaker 00 Baby.
13:50 Speaker 00 By now, Nikki was seeing less and less of her family back in Georgia.
13:55 Speaker 10 Nikki never talked to me about that. There were a lot of things in her past that were a complete surprise to me.
14:03 Speaker 00 That's Doug Chatham, Nikki's dad. This was a recorded conversation from after the night Nikki went missing. He said when her relationships hadn't worked out before, he didn't know about it until afterwards.
14:16 Speaker 10 She kept things pretty close to herself. She did, I don't think she felt like she could talk to any of the members of the family because she...
14:28 Speaker 10 I think it would be admitting a failure. Well, I think she was judging herself. But I would hope that she would have felt that she could come to me with anything. But apparently she never felt that way.
14:40 Speaker 00 He said that they were aware that the two would fight and that Matt would be controlling. But that was about it. Amy and Nikki remained in close contact, though. She went to visit her when they moved away.
14:53 Speaker 11 So I go out there and I'm not, I mean, they have, they've set up this lovely house. She had this big, like, blue sectional sofa. And I was like, all right, you guys are doing OK. And I remember her and Matt having all these fights, like, the whole time I was there. And they're just fighting. And I remember thinking, oh, good. She finally, she, now she's gonna see it, right? She's gonna see it and he's gonna be gone.
15:24 Speaker 00 When Amy and Matt and Nikki all lived together in Athens, she said her sister had on rose-colored glasses when it came to Matt. She didn't see the worst of him, nor did it seem that she wanted to. And now that Amy wasn't there to pick on, Alex, this little girl, became his target.
15:43 Speaker 11 It was always Alex.
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16:40 Speaker 00 The problems in the Liley household always seemed to revolve around Matt's relationship with his stepdaughter, Alex. Nikki would later regret that she didn't step in and tell Matt he didn't need to be the disciplinarian when she was gone. But he had taken that on, became the rule setter, and well, Alex did not take it well. Matt felt like she didn't respect him, that Nikki gave her special treatment. She was, in all aspects, in his way. And he had no qualms in taking the matter into his own hands.
17:16 Speaker 06 One of my first boyfriends, he started texting him weird crap and his mom got ahold of it and that relationship ended. As a 14-year-old with her first little boyfriend, it was very traumatizing, like, oh my gosh, I don't want to go to school, I want to crawl in a hole because I just got broken up with because you just sent him ridiculously inappropriate stuff.
17:38 Speaker 00 And it wasn't like this was the first situation Matt muscled his way into with the girls.
17:44 Speaker 06 So, I mean, it just like, stuff like that would happen where you would get a friend and then you would think you were safe to have them around your family and then suddenly, no. Friends just stopped coming over there and, you know. I think you've learned to go, okay, if I'm gonna have friends, they need to be at their house, away from my house.
18:07 Speaker 00 But most bizarre in all of the strife in the Liley house was that it never really went away. In fact, so much of it would be there forever, recorded.
18:18 Speaker 12 You asked me why I was unhappy. The reason I'm unhappy is because I am still sitting here.
18:30 Speaker 00 Even Matt and Nikki's fights were recorded.
18:33 Speaker 12 And I'm still sitting in the same unhappy position. I'm nowhere. I'm nowhere different. So efforts are not well-meaning or not. They didn't do anything to change anything, did they?
18:53 Speaker 00 And these conversations reveal something so important about Nikki's story. A map of a relationship's descent into chaos. A cautionary tale that you must listen to with caution. These recordings are not easy to hear.
19:12 Speaker 13 We can't move forward until Alex's situation is resolved.
19:16 Speaker 12 Yes, we can.
19:17 Speaker 13 You can't try because you're so upset about Alex's family.
19:21 Speaker 12 No.
19:22 Speaker 13 Are you gonna put an effort into this marriage?
19:25 Speaker 12 I already am.
19:26 Speaker 13 If I'm claiming Alex is such a problem, and obviously you're claiming Alex is such a problem, you think it's gonna help our marriage and our situation to force her down my throat and give me ultimatums?
19:44 Speaker 12 I haven't, have I?
19:50 Speaker 00 This was more than a couple struggling behind closed doors. This was Nikki's desperate attempt to appease Matt, to find any solution that would just calm him down.
20:05 Speaker 11 I would say to Nikki, like, I can't believe that you're okay with him treating her this way. And at one point, she was considering also, like, taking another job, but it would have meant moving again. And she said, "Well, if I did that, I would have to send Alex to live with her dad because I can't do that to Alex again." And I said, "There's your answer." Like, why is this even a question?
20:34 Speaker 00 It was more than a question. Nikki was prepared to do it. She and Matt even went to see an attorney to talk about it.
20:41 Speaker 14 When they came in together, I was really, I was shocked by the way he treated her.
20:50 Speaker 00 This is Suzanne Laird, an attorney that Nikki and Matt had hired to discuss the transfer of custody of Alex from Nikki back to her father.
21:00 Speaker 14 He was so controlling. He wouldn't even let her speak. I can't explain it, but, you know, it was a very bad feeling I had. But I know that after she left my office and she went home, I was so concerned that I got on the, um, on the phone and called her back and asked her if she was being abused in her marriage. She told me no. Most of them do.
21:30 Speaker 00 Nikki had to work around Matt just to support her daughter in the way most parents want to support their kids. And at one point Nikki wanted to surprise her with a car for her 16th birthday. Her dad had the same idea. And before she could get around to buying her daughter the car, Alex's dad beat her to it.
21:53 Speaker 06 They didn't communicate. I look back and I'm like, wow, I cannot imagine how heartbreaking that was for her.
22:00 Speaker 00 And Nikki was torn up about it, that's true. She wanted to do something nice for her daughter. And when the car had already been purchased, she called up a friend of hers to vent about her situation.
22:13 Speaker 12 He doesn't want to get her a car, but he doesn't want to drive her anywhere. He doesn't want me driving her anywhere. Next of your mind, dude. You know? His dad even asked me inside at dinner. He said, "What are you all gonna do about Alex's car?" And I said, "Well, Matt doesn't think it's a good idea right now." "Well, that's right." Well, that made me, um, bad mouth him to his dad and made him out to be a villain. Like, all I said was, "You didn't think it was a good idea right now." He said, "I like it." It's like that with everything.
22:44 Speaker 00 Turns out Nikki did try to buy that car for Alex. She was searching online and Matt walked by her computer.
22:52 Speaker 12 And I pulled it off the screen because I just, you know, I don't want to hear his bullshit. You know what? I don't want to hear his bullshit about, "I'm going behind his back to buy her a car." I just don't want to hear it. Well, he launched into a tirade, like, when he said everything. He called me a cunt, a lying piece of shit, blah, blah, blah, every name he can think of in the book. I let him run away. And I said, "You know what, Matt? I'm sorry you're out of line." I said, "I'm not lying to you. I didn't go out and buy her a car behind her."
23:27 Speaker 00 Matt didn't trust her to be honest with him. She knew he kept a watchful eye over her relationship with Alex. What she didn't know was that he was watching everything. Not just the deers in the backyard. He was watching her. He was listening to the phone call you just heard, recording them without her knowing.
24:00 Speaker 00 Matt and Nikki decide to leave Mississippi. They move back to Georgia, in the suburbs near Atlanta. Matt was still recording everything outside of the house, sometimes inside, too. It got to the point where Nikki and the girls really didn't know when they were being recorded and when they were not.
24:20 Speaker 06 He's always had, like, computers, per se, but I don't remember the extensiveness until we got to Lawrenceville. If you were to ask him, he would tell you that he was testing these security systems on our house.
24:36 Speaker 06 There was probably 16 or more on the outside. Like, every corner of the house was covered. They did record, so you could go back and look at them. There was one in the living room, so if you were sitting on the couch, you were being recorded or watched. So if you were watching TV, it was really uncomfortable.
24:51 Speaker 00 There was even one camera trained on a fridge.
24:54 Speaker 06 We had a fridge in the basement where they would, like... We used to go to Sam's every month and do the, like, giant spend $2,000 at Sam's kind of family. We had a fridge downstairs that was stocked with the sodas and the beers and all the things. So I would sneak down there and get cokes. And I would get busted because there was a camera down there watching me go down and get a coke.
25:14 Speaker 00 And for that, she'd get punished.
25:17 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, I'd get my phone taken away for getting a coke.
25:22 Speaker 00 It appeared as though the subject of Matt's frustration and surveillance always seemed to be the things he couldn't control about Nikki. Her ex, her child.
25:34 Speaker 06 I know they fought about me.
25:38 Speaker 00 If Nikki even tried to reach out to her ex-husband, Matt would fly into a rage.
25:45 Speaker 06 It got to a point where my parents couldn't communicate other than through me because he, I mean, he tracked everything she did. He read every text message or call or whatever, anything she did, he tracked.
26:01 Speaker 13 Here I sit again, another fight, hundreds of fights later. And how do I feel? I feel that it's either Alex or me. You're telling me, you're telling, you're telling me, you're telling me you can't be happy without Alex. You can't be happy unless this family is together without Alex.
26:24 Speaker 00 Matt didn't just see Alex as a problem in their marriage. He saw her as the problem. But clearly, there was a lot more going on.
26:33 Speaker 13 I asked for no temper, more affection, attention, and effort into this marriage. I asked for maybe five or six things, all of which you told me comes naturally. I deserve them. It's something that comes natural in a marriage.
26:54 Speaker 12 It should come natural in a marriage.
26:56 Speaker 13 That I shouldn't even have to ask for.
26:58 Speaker 12 That's right.
26:59 Speaker 13 How many days, just in the past two weeks alone, have you disengaged and taken off from this marriage? Have you not, have you not displayed good?
27:07 Speaker 12 When did I disengage?
27:10 Speaker 13 Done. This conversation is over.
27:15 Speaker 06 I think for me, as a 13, 14-year-old, being very dramatic in the sense of, "Mom, what the hell are you doing? Get rid of this guy. He's doing this. He's done this to me. Like, hello."
27:34 Speaker 00 And this is what is so puzzling, frustrating about the case of Dominique Liley. Was the conversation really over? Did anybody in this family know when to call it quits? Before things started to get really dark? It's impossible to second guess them. And yet, what's so arresting about these recordings is that you can hear Nikki struggling to draw a line with Matt. And Matt's crossing that line over and over again.
28:10 Speaker 15 I tried to shift gears on Tuesday. Not asking you to do anything. I was simply asking you to see me differently. I knew you saw me in strike mode and were expecting something from me. And all I wanted to ask from you was for you to see me differently. Let it go.
28:35 Speaker 16 No, you didn't.
28:36 Speaker 15 Oh, yes, I did. Please do not tell me I did. No, no, no, no, no.
28:41 Speaker 16 Lower your voice, lower your voice.
28:42 Speaker 15 Don't tell me I didn't let it go. I know for a fact that...
28:45 Speaker 06 For her, she was, one, there was a level of fear. There's a level of, like, I think she was genuinely scared of him to an extent. And balancing that between trying to, like, appear normal, I can't go through another divorce.
29:01 Speaker 00 Listen to how bad it got.
29:04 Speaker 16 Lower your voice.
29:05 Speaker 15 Shut up and listen.
29:06 Speaker 16 No, I got it on tape.
29:07 Speaker 15 You're not gonna tell me what I...
29:08 Speaker 16 I got it on tape.
29:09 Speaker 15 On tape in the car, what you did to me in the car?
29:10 Speaker 16 I got it on tape.
29:11 Speaker 15 What have you got on tape?
29:12 Speaker 06 She was the only one bringing in money into the house. She was keeping all four walls up. And he sat on a couch, monitoring his 15 security cameras. I look back on it, and it wasn't rebellion, it was protection. Like, the way that I look at it now as an adult is it's how I protected myself and probably why I'm alive.
29:33 Speaker 00 In this next recording, I'm not sure, but it sounds like Matt struck Nikki.
29:39 Speaker 15 That's not what I said and how I said it, and don't take my words out of context. When we got in that goddamn car...
29:45 Speaker 16 Oh, you fucking goddammit, goddammit, goddammit, goddammit, goddammit, goddammit. Fucking damn it! Lower your voice! I am not gonna sit here and listen to this shit. You're driving me fucking nuts.
30:03 Speaker 17 Welcome to my world. You killed me a long time ago.
30:08 Speaker 00 Next time on Watching You, Nikki goes missing.
30:13 Speaker 00 And Matt does something unexpected.
30:17 Speaker 18 Hey.
30:18 Speaker 12 How are you?
30:19 Speaker 18 I'm good.
30:21 Speaker 12 What's going on?
30:22 Speaker 18 I'm falling for the worst.
30:25 Speaker 12 Oh.
30:25 Speaker 18 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not waiting around.
30:44 Speaker 00 Watching You is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and reported by me, Jonathan Hirsch. Jason Hoak of Wavelength Media is our lead producer and co-reported the series with me. Catherine St. Louis is our story editor. Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design and mixing by Scott Somerville. We use music from Epidemic Sound and APM. Our fact checker is Naomi Barr. Our production managers are Tamika Balance-Kalasny and Sammy Allison. Our lawyer is Minakshi Krishnan. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rosick, Jamie Myers, and the whole team at Sony Podcasts. If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and leave us a review.
31:28 Speaker 00 Thank you so much for listening.
31:46 Speaker 19 The wilderness can hide a lot, but it can't hide the truth forever. I'm Delia D'Amber, host of Park Predators. And every week I investigate true crime cases hidden in national parks, forests, and beaches. I follow every lead, every clue, and every overlooked detail. Because even when a trail seems to disappear, the truth has a way of resurfacing. Listen to Park Predators wherever you get your podcasts.
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