Pod Insights The Bill Simmons Podcast The Giannis Never-Trade and a Mega-Mailbag With Zach Lowe, Plus Wyndham Clark’s Second U.S. Open Title With Joe House About this episode The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe to discuss the newest developments with the Giannis trade rumors before jumping into a mega-mailbag to answer questions from the listeners. Then, Joe House joins the pod to react to Wyndham Clark winning the U. S. Open and to discuss the World Cup.
(0:00) Intro
(1:15) Giannis trade rumors
(24:46) Mega-mailbag
(01:35:44) U. S. Open reactions
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Zach Lowe and Joe House
Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers
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Transcript 23,109 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:06 Bill Simmons? This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. And save offers before you check out, earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewards/. Credit card points subject to issuers, terms, and conditions.
2:15 Bill Simmons? Bill Simmons Podcast, we are live on Netflix. We had Zach Lowe and something happened and he just disappeared like two minutes before we went live, but that's fine. I can, I can carry the very top here because I want to tell you, we have a new rewatchables. We have two coming this week. We have From Hell Month, still going, really strong. We have Domestic Disturbance coming on Monday, and then The Good Sun is going to be Thursday. And then the next Monday, we're going to be doing Pacific Heights. So, three more From Hell movies, then we'll get into a more regular schedule after that. Check out all of our Ringer Basketball Podcast, by the way, because we have the draft on Tuesday night. I'm going live on Netflix. Hopefully Zach's laptop will be working, or computer and camera will be
3:00 Bill Simmons? working at some point. He will have a show, I think, on Monday. We're going to have, on my show on Tuesday on Netflix, it's going to be Joe House, because his team has the number one pick, and that's the rule of House has the number one pick. We're good. And then Jay Kyle Man will be joining us as well. And now Zach Lowe. I think, is this working, Zach? How are we feeling?
3:20 Speaker 02 Are we, are we live? Am I back?
3:21 Bill Simmons? We're live. I just did my intro. Let's go.
3:24 Speaker 02 Oh my God. Okay. My computer just died. It came back to life. I don't know what happened. I don't know what's going to happen, but I just, I popped into Netflix, just like that. I'm live. Okay.
3:32 Bill Simmons? You did.
3:32 Speaker 02 No pleasantries.
3:34 Bill Simmons? I thought the Bucks or the Miami Heat, or Miami Heat media members might have sabotaged your feed.
3:39 Speaker 02 Okay.
3:39 Bill Simmons? So we could have talked about the trade. We have the honest trade hostage crisis, what, day 305? Day 307? I don't know how long this has been going. We were kind of hoping it would happen this weekend. I think- I think it's gonna happen tomorrow sadly, not, not good for our podcast, maybe not good for you with whatever week you had planned out, but I think it's gonna happen tomorrow. And I just am discounting 95% of everything I'm reading. So we're at the very top of this podcast, we're talking honest quick, we'll talk our just knowing enough, enough about the draft to be dangerous takes. And then I have a mega mailbag that I'm going to bring you into. And then at the tail end, Joe House is going to tell us what happened in the
4:20 Bill Simmons? US Open. So the honest trade, are you surprised that has not happened yet? Are you tired of talking about it? Where are you?
4:26 Speaker 02 I'm not surprised it hasn't happened yet. I, I totally understand both why Milwaukee wants to take this as far as possible and why other teams are perhaps a little frustrated with Milwaukee's communication style. I understand all of it. I, I understand every party involved. I kind of thought it would be done by now. They clearly want to do it before the draft. Our owner Jimmy Haslam came out and said, we'd like to do it before the draft if he's not going to extend. Um, I thought it would happen before now. I still would lean to it happening before the draft like you. Uh, I'm not frustrated about like, I just, it's just got to roll off your back. There's nothing you can do. Am I going to a World Cup game on Tuesday? Am I tentatively throwing out the first pitch at Citi Field tomorrow, weather permitting, weather permitting, like all those things are happening. It's just nothing I
5:10 Speaker 02 can do. I can't control these variables. I just gotta, I just gotta roll with it. Just gotta roll with it. Peace, peace, surrender now, surrender now. It's all I can do.
5:19 Bill Simmons? Is this the highlight of the Met season? You throwing out the first pitch? I can't think of any other highlights.
5:23 Speaker 02 I mean, the state of, the state of the rotation is such that you would not be the first one of my friends to joke that, hey, if I look good, they may have to throw me out there for a few innings. Just eat, eat some, eat some innings for them.
5:34 Bill Simmons? Well, you could be like, like the Eddie Harrison, major league, the crafty over 40, um, junk, junk pitcher.
5:41 Speaker 02 Throwing junk.
5:42 Bill Simmons? So with the honest, the honest thing, my feeling has not changed for a week. I think they know what Miami's offer is. It can only be so far. Um, they're not putting Bam in it. So at that point, it's pretty easy to figure out everything that's in it. And they're just waiting on Boston to see if Boston is going to top the offer. Maybe they're trying to get them to add stuff to the offer that already happened. Um, I still think, I would still bet on Boston. And as we talked about last week, I'm still conflicted about that. I don't feel great about the honest trade, but, um, so there's been some stuff floating around in the last week that, that.
6:19 Bill Simmons? I don't want to discount, but I just don't believe like I think hero if if it ends up being Miami, I think hero is appealing to Milwaukee. He's from Wisconsin. I think that would be a piece they want. Um, I don't when once we start getting into three team or four team or stuff, I just become a little more suspicious. And the other piece is, I think Kuzma is the Yanis tax for this trade for whoever gets him. And I haven't seen that really anywhere in a real way. But for Miami, it would have to be Wiggins being in the trade and then Kuzma going back to Miami. He's an expiring deal. I think they just want to move off him. And then for the Celtics, I think that might be a piece of this. Like,
7:01 Bill Simmons? if it is going to be Yanis and Jalen as the principals, the Celtics have this trade exception. And I think the Yanis tax would be, well, you have to also take Kuzma. So I wonder if that's a piece of this. Have you heard anything about that?
7:13 Speaker 02 It's a great call. I have not dug so deep as to get into the Kuzma sediment layer of this, but it makes a lot of sense, particularly for Miami, because I think they would like to to end up with Wiggins and Powell, who's an unrestricted free agent on this theoretical Bam Yanis team, both of them, not just one of them, because they're going to be scrambling to fill out the team. They have lost Rozier as a salary matching tool, which makes it even more difficult to do that. And it's doable keeping both of them if it's just Yanis, if it's Yanis plus a tiny salary. But if it's Yanis plus another 20 million or whatever Kuzma is making, it becomes very, very hard. And then there you get into the concerns that I think are very real for Miami is like, if we do this,
7:58 Speaker 02 and all our first round picks are out the door, and Yakachunas is out the door, and all our young guys are out the door, what is it going to amount to? You could argue, like, what is the present state of the team going to amount to? But at least you have some optionality down the line for whoever the next star that becomes available is. But like, you know, as Miami has seen, A, you never know who it's going to be. And B, you may not get him. Like, you didn't get Damian Lillard, you haven't got Kevin Durant, you may not get Yanis now.
8:23 Bill Simmons? Right. And then on top of it, you're getting a guy that hasn't made even the conference finals in five years, who has had trouble staying healthy, who's 31, 32 years old, and you're banking that he's going to completely change your playoff destiny. So the more you put in the trade, the less likely that goes. But like if Wiggins and Kuzma have to be the extra piece for a Miami trade, and now you don't have Hero, Ware, Hakez, and Wiggins, you're just removing all of those guys out. And you're basically just, you have to, you know, bring back Norm Powell, you have Giannis, you have Bam. And then you're just kind of doing the Miami zombie thing, trying to revive careers all over the place. You're probably still in a better spot than you were at 43 and 39, losing a playing game. But I also
9:07 Bill Simmons? don't think you're a title contender. So we'll see. Boston's a little different because I think they could talk themselves into this Tatum-Jalen thing might have reached the end. Jalen got a taste of being the guy. And now we're resetting the team. We're going to be more inside outside, and hopefully we can ride Giannis for three years here. I understand it. I don't agree with it.
9:31 Speaker 02 So, so how much, if you're, if you are Brad Stevens, how much extra are you going to put in? Because you know they're just, they're asking for Derrick White. I'm just making this up to be clear, but just like Derrick White plus two first round picks. What about Jalen Brown plus two picks and a swap? Like which, what's your threshold of pain?
9:52 Bill Simmons? I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that at all.
9:53 Speaker 02 You're just going one, like one for one, and we're done. That's it. Take it or leave it?
9:57 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I'm not taking Giannis, but also getting rid of Derrick White. Like, part of the reason to get Giannis would be that you still have Derrick White, and he's like the perfect guy to play with Giannis. So
10:06 Speaker 02 Agreed. If he makes his three again.
10:09 Bill Simmons? I, I would suck it up with Kuzma. And if it's like Giannis plus the Kuzma trade exception thing for Jalen.
10:19 Bill Simmons? I think that's a, that's a pretty fair trade. Jalen was one of the, you know, the eight or nine best players in the league last year, and he's not even 30 years old yet. And then if you're Milwaukee, with the way the new lottery rules are, you, you're more competitive than you were, and you still have a chance to flip Jalen. I still, I'm, I'm still rooting for this scenario with the Celtics. If they, if they've decided that they actually have to move Jalen, I think there's other teams that I would rather look at than Giannis. Like, if, if the Clippers' number five was on the table,
10:50 Bill Simmons? if New Orleans with Murphy and Herb Jones and, you know, patching together a bunch of contracts and try to reset and have more flexibility, I would still prefer that over the Giannis. It's, it's not a hail mary, but it's a little bit of a hail mary.
11:04 Speaker 02 What's coming with the number five pick? Because you're, you're trying to, you're trying to, you're going for the title or the, the, trying to win this coming season, right? So are you getting Kawhi in the number five pick? That seems like too much for the Clippers to ever do. Like, what's coming with?
11:16 Bill Simmons? I think it's Collins, Collins in the five and maybe one more thing.
11:21 Speaker 02 Collins is a free agent, isn't he?
11:22 Bill Simmons? Is Colin, but can't you team option him and keep him so you can trade him? I thought you could.
11:26 Speaker 02 I think he's unrestricted.
11:28 Bill Simmons? Is he unrestricted?
11:29 Speaker 02 He's un, he's unrestricted, yeah.
11:30 Bill Simmons? All right, well, he's out. But the Clippers have a ton of cap space, though, so I guess, I mean, that'd be part of the deal, right? You could just, you could do Jalen in the five as the principals. Because the Clippers really only have Kawhi and Garland as their big contracts.
11:44 Speaker 02 I just think the Clippers, look, I, again, I, I can't sit here and claim that, oh yeah, I've been on the phone with everybody with the Clippers and they're telling me exactly what their plans are. Anyone sort of posturing like that is lying to you. But I just think this, this pick from Indiana is such a gift from the basketball and the lottery gods.
12:03 Bill Simmons? Yes.
12:03 Speaker 02 And such a rare opportunity for a franchise that has not had any after the Shay, Kawhi, Paul George trade, to not quite reset, but to at least get a blue chip young guy in the door. At least I have a shot at like, this guy could be on our team for 12 years and be really good. I just don't see them passing it up for like, hey, if we get Jalen Brown, Jalen plus Kawhi plus Garland, like, we might be able to throw a couple punches at the Spurs and the Thunder and everyone else in the, I just don't see them doing that. That's just my gut, though. That's not reporting. That's just my gut.
12:35 Bill Simmons? I think you might be right. I was thinking of the Bogdanovich contract, not Collins, because Collins has the team. Bogdanovich is a team option for like 16. But the Clippers are still way under the cap and could do stuff. But New Orleans would be the other one. I don't know what to make of Atlanta anymore. Like, I thought it was interesting today. They extended McCollum for one year for 21, which I thought was really smart. They have the eighth pick. The weirdest part of this draft is the fifth and sixth picks are both point guard picks, and yet the teams that have those picks have point guards, which is one of the many things that make this complicated. If I had to bet, I still think Boozer goes to Utah. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I still feel like I'm leaning Boozer versus rolling the dice with Peterson. Peterson goes three, Wilson goes four.
13:20 Bill Simmons? I think the Clippers, if they stay at five, have to take Wogler. I think Mikel Brown goes six, Aikov seven to Sacramento. And then Atlanta is the first one that I'm really on the edge of my seat for. I don't know what to make of them. And it would seem like Flemings makes a lot of sense. They could go nuts and take a center. If I were them, I would take Brandon Burris. I just think that, I just think he's the best player that's available at number eight. But would it, do you feel like Atlanta is the pivot team?
13:51 Speaker 02 Why, why would, why would the Clippers not take Burris? Is that too much of a reach at five?
13:59 Bill Simmons? If I were them, I would take Burris at five, but I don't feel like, I feel like in the rankings, he's probably a couple of spots behind those other guys. I think he's pretty consensus eight, nine. Now, they might not care and have their own rankings, but I think for him, he's a much better bet. I love Burris. I feel the same way about him that I did about Castle two years ago. I think he's a guaranteed really good pro.
14:21 Speaker 02 The Hawks have eight and 23, and a ball handler makes a lot of sense for them because you saw like, once, once Trey went out, they kind of cobbled together a functional offense of screens and cuts in motion. Then as soon as they got McCollum, it was like, oh. A real high level skilled ball handler changes the complete, changes the dynamics of this team completely. They're really hard to guard. It's really hard to hide any bad defenders against them. They need a ball handler like Jalen Johnson, not quite a number one ball handler. Nikhil Alexander Walker, same deal. So it'd make a lot of sense for them to take a swing at one of those guys with that pick. It's also like an interesting first trade chip to like, are they going to cobble things together and try to get Trey Murphy III or somebody like that?
15:03 Speaker 02 I, I don't know, but I agree they're in a very interesting spot. I have a, I have a follow up.
15:08 Bill Simmons? Well, by the way, in the Hawks at 23, you have all these, I think guards that have a chance to be really good. And I just feel like one of them's going to fall and you might be able to get a Corey, the, the point guard. He's like six, one, he's a little Kemba Walker, Christian Anderson could be around there. And they, you just might be able to get one of those guys at 23 and get a blue, you get Burris at eight. There's like one version of him in the draft, like just an old school two way, two guard. And then hope you get lucky with a point guard later.
15:38 Speaker 02 I have a Celtics question for you.
15:39 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
15:40 Speaker 02 You mentioned, has the Tatum Brown thing run its course? The other side of that coin is the Celtics have been extremely quiet and extremely careful about this whole Yanis thing. It's all been, sources say the Celtics are interested in Yanis. Sources say there have been talks, whatever. The, the leak that says specifically Jalen Brown has been offered for Yanis has not really come out yet. It's just everyone making the very logical, no other way to do it deduction. And then there was a brief like, well, could they do it without including Jalen Brown? Which I didn't buy for a second. I don't think there's any way to do it. But my point is the Celtics have been, I think, very careful because they know
16:22 Speaker 02 having done this dance a little bit with Durant and Brooklyn, that there's collateral damage to a guy who thinks he's been offered. They can probably plausibly go to him now and be like, hey, man, like it was never out there that we explicitly offered you. Like just ignore all that stuff. Do you think that, that is too far gone? Like that collateral, are you worried about that kind of collateral damage? If this doesn't happen and how does he, how does Jalen Brown feel about it? Is there still a path forward?
16:52 Bill Simmons? I mean, I said a week and a half ago, I know they made an offer and they're, they're definitely involved in this and they're definitely the other team. Like there's no question. The bigger question to me is how much does Jalen Brown even care? Like.
17:06 Bill Simmons? My fear with all of this, and maybe this is part of the reason they're thinking about, not blowing it up, but changing whatever they're doing, is that he got a legitimate taste at being the guy last year and having his own team. And that's a real thing. And that's something that has submarine a lot of NBA teams over the course of history and is something that's submarine other facets of life. Like I jokingly was talking about The Wire when Avon went to jail and Stringer Bell took over the business and was kind of the guy running the thing. And then Avon came back and that's the TV fictionalized version of it. But when you have a taste and it's your team and you're the guy, it's pretty tough to just be like, okay, here you go. I kept it
17:46 Bill Simmons? warm for you. And I think what's different than a couple of years ago is that, you know, if Jalen had his own team, I don't think he's shedding tears over that. And I also think he's, since the season ended,
18:04 Bill Simmons? he's just done a lot of like, small things that make you go, huh?
18:11 Speaker 02 That was like two, two 90s song lyrics in a row. All the small things. I guess that's post 90s and things that make you go, hmm, all just sandwiched together. Nicely done.
18:22 Bill Simmons? There was some.
18:23 Speaker 02 The Twitch? You're not enjoying the Twitch stream?
18:25 Bill Simmons? I don't think the Twitch, this was the best season of my career. I don't, like, Tatum hasn't come on the Twitch. It's like all these little tiny things where I still don't have a lot of hardcore evidence that these guys are fired up to play basketball with each other for the next 10 years. I would rather it worked out than they stayed together because I think that's the rarest thing you could have in sports. I just am dubious that it will.
18:48 Speaker 02 But you've done, not to derail the mailbag, I'm sorry, but you've done a very smart thing, which is, this is, there's so much Giannis mania that this is being framed as Giannis or bust. And it doesn't have to be. You can canvass the league for Jalen Brown trades. However, I will say, just scanning, and I remember doing this at the time, finding the one, if this is your priority, and I think it should be, that keeps you at or near the top of the East with like, Like a reasonable championship equity next season is not like the Clippers one that you proposed does not do that in my opinion. It's a huge step back for the team. So like I remember, I remember landing in places like Houston.
19:28 Speaker 02 That that have a lot of just stuff that and picks that they can throw in. And I just, I'm struggling to remember sort of who else fits the bill is like here's the Pelicans are the other one. That's why you have Murphy and Jones and all that. There just aren't that many who can throw back. Here, here's some stuff that is different than Jalen Brown, but keeps you at a 58 to 60 win pace, which is what they've been at.
19:50 Bill Simmons? Well, the only thing with that Clippers one is you're resetting your salary in like a pretty crazy way. Because with the Clippers able to take on his money and you basically take that fifth pick back, plus you have the trade exception. Now you really have flexibility to do a bunch of different moves.
20:06 Speaker 02 Like what about like, I remember thinking about like, like, and I don't think either the, I don't think Cleveland would do this, but like a Jalen Brown from Mobley. Like that would be the kind of thing that I'm talking about where it's like, here's another pathway that's not Yanis, but satisfies that makes us just as good now. As we are, and it's, it's just hard to find. Those deals are really hard to make.
20:24 Bill Simmons? We have a fake trade in the mailbag.
20:26 Speaker 02 Oh, good.
20:27 Bill Simmons? That's another one for this. But yeah, I mean, he's making the high 50s. So any trade, unless you're getting a draft pick back and a bunch of flexibility, you're looking at another guy who's in that range and a team that's probably staring at the same way. I guess the bigger thing for me is with the, with the, I think the Knicks have at least a two year run here where they're going to be really hard to beat because of the team they've assembled. All the guys at the right points of their career and there's a real selflessness with this like that. The motto for them would be what happened with the seventies through 73 Knicks where they won two titles. Were able to stay together or even like the 08 to 2012 Celtics. So you kind of know that's the team. That's the bar you have to beat. That's a team that feels like they can beat Boston is.
21:09 Speaker 02 Or like, or like the, the, the early 2000s Pistons who only get one, but are in the deep, deep conversation. For a half decade and probably should have gotten another one in there somewhere. Yeah, I, I, I agree.
21:20 Bill Simmons? They have a, a really special guy, which that Pistons team did not have. That Piston team was a totality. Brunson is unlike anything that Pistons team has.
21:28 Speaker 02 Dismiss the Knicks repeat chants at your peril. That's all. This is a really, really good team. And if they're, they're healthy, they're deep, they're smart, they know how to play. They're incredible problem solvers. Something magical happened to them in this playoff run that it like, maybe it completely sustains, maybe it doesn't. But like, I think they're going to be. A force for the, as long as they can keep this core together.
21:49 Bill Simmons? Yeah, and Brad, his press conference was so telling right after the draft for the Celtics, where he was clearly like, really, really publicly unhappy for the first time in a while. Not just that they lost to a team I think he thought they were better than, but that he just didn't know if the style worked anymore. And even if you go back, we have a great mailbag question coming up about that 04 Celtics team. That team was still able to play more inside outside than the team last year. That team last year ultimately was just threes and jump shots and weirdly Pritchard as the only inside outside guy. So I think I'm prepared for anything with them. I don't know what's gonna happen and I still feel like, I still feel like it's gonna be honest and then I'm gonna
22:32 Bill Simmons? have to spend the summer talking myself into it.
22:35 Speaker 02 Honestly, that is a really appealing part of it for me. I just wanna witness you come into grips with it and then going all the other way of like, why this would be the perfect fit. The, I've loved Giannis all along.
22:47 Bill Simmons? The shape of his career, he's totally rested. I'll talk myself into it. And it's the same thing, like I said last month about if Miami gets him, wherever Giannis goes, the team and the content from that team is gonna be way more fun, right? Last year, we were in this Giannis situation, really where it was just like, this is just a wasted asset for us to watch and discuss. And wherever he goes, it's gonna be a lot more fun. The other thing I wanna see with this draft, the, the 11, 12 range of Golden State picking right before OKC. And I'm sure you've heard this too. These teams now that see it through the prism of, I'm tired of watching OKC just nail the draft. How would they be thinking
23:29 Bill Simmons? about these guys and the spot I'm in? And there's a couple like classic OKC guys in this range, right after that top eight where Yaxle, Morris Johnson, like these are just guys that OKC will pick and then you'll, you'll get texts from 20 teams being like, fuck, OKC did it again. And I wonder if that's gonna change how people see the draft with their own spot. Like even Atlanta at eight or the Warriors at 11, like, I wonder what OKC would do here.
23:59 Speaker 02 I will caution, I heard you say that with Legler a couple of days ago. I will say that the Spurs had that kind of reaction, maybe 10, 12 years ago, where they would take a guy and be like, I remember vividly this happened with Kyle Anderson, like, oh, of course the Spurs steal Kyle Anderson. And then it turns out, he's just like, whatever. Like it's some, sometimes he's like, oh, of course they draft this guy. Turned into like, of course the Spurs drafted Josh Primo. What a steal he's gonna be. Oh.
24:22 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that was that a steal.
24:23 Speaker 02 Okay.
24:25 Bill Simmons? So you feel like that's it. Okay.
24:27 Speaker 02 Get carried away with it.
24:29 Bill Simmons? All right. Aggregate that. Zach Lowe says Presti overrated.
24:32 Speaker 02 Oh, I know.
24:33 Bill Simmons? Zach Lowe eviscerates Sam Presti.
24:37 Bill Simmons? We're taking, we're taking a quick break.
24:39 Speaker 02 Oh, good.
24:40 Bill Simmons? And then I have an awesome mega mailbag and Zach can recover from eviscerating Sam Presti right after this. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you. The stakes are just as high. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26. It's giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra, from the pitch to the pour, superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com/superioraccess/fifa world cup 26.
25:24 Bill Simmons? Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 Superior Access. No purchase necessary. Opening US Residence 21 Plus begins on December 1st, 2025, ends on July 31st, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.michelobultra.com/superioraccess/fifa world cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, mailbag time. All right. Some really good ones. This is from, I hope I pronounced this correctly, Pacho in Dusseldorf, Germany. He threw you in this mailbag question.
25:58 Speaker 02 Okay.
25:59 Bill Simmons? He said, I want to know how you and Zach think a tournament of the last eight champions would actually shake out. Here's how the seeding landed based on win percentage. Number one is OKC, two Boston, three Lakers, four Toronto, five Knicks, six Nuggets, seven Warriors, and eight Bucks. How does it shake out? So first round would be OKC one versus Bucks eight, Boston and Golden State, Denver and the Lakers, and Knicks, Toronto. So let's, let's go through the one eight. I have OKC over the Bucks in five, 2015, 25 OKC against that 21 Bucks team. I think, I think the Thunder handled them.
26:38 Speaker 02 I didn't make specific games picks, but I took the Thunder. So it's a Thunder in six. I'll give Yanis a couple of games. Yanis, Drew Holiday, Chris Middleton. I'll give them a couple of games for sure.
26:48 Bill Simmons? Okay. I think OKC was better. That Bucks team, God bless them. Great team. They got a really nice Pat Connaughton playoff run. Middleton was great. I just think the OKC team was really good. Celtics, the 24 version, going against the 22 Warriors. So they almost beat the 22 Warriors. And that 24 team, I think, was just better. The guys were older, more experienced. I have to sadly take the Celtics.
27:14 Speaker 02 I think it's the Celtics. You put, you throw Drew Holiday and Porzingis into the mix and it's just the depth and versatility are a different animal than those Warriors could, could summon, I think.
27:24 Bill Simmons? Yeah. But congratulate, listen, there's no losers. These are eight champions. We're not, we're not downing any of these.
27:29 Speaker 02 You're setting me up for, for some inflammatory. All of these are wonderful teams, great teams. And one of the, one of the common themes we're going to run into is we debate the merits of them. And I, I focused like on matchups and, and like how they would match up with each other and what they look like in the playoffs more than like regular season win totals and net ratings. Cause if we're just going to do it that way, just pick the 25 Thunder the whole way, if you're going to do, just do it that way. And you're going to run into like debating the, the difficulty of their playoff paths to the title like, and that's a common, it turns out that's like a common thing. You don't always get the 2011 Mavericks path where you just have to beat all the best teams. Like a lot of these teams in the moment, people said, well, they didn't have to play this team. They didn't have to play that team. It's actually pretty common.
28:14 Bill Simmons? Denver over the Lakers. So that's 23 Denver against the 20 Lakers and that 20 Lakers team did have, this is where it gets complicated because KCP is, KCP is in both, in both teams. I don't know what we do with that.
28:30 Speaker 02 Think about that.
28:31 Bill Simmons? It's a double KCP. Caruso was on that Laker team as well. They had Rondo. I, I just think Jokic had the Lakers number over the last few years there and I would take Denver over the Lakers in six or seven would be my pick.
28:48 Speaker 02 I'm going Nuggets in seven. Best player and the best version of that team. I think that we've seen the 23 Nuggets. We're, we're going peak against peak, right? We're going like peak form 23 Nuggets versus 20 Lakers. That 20 Lakers is a really good team. I have always been Lakers fans, a proponent of like the bubble title counts just the same as all other titles. It's special in its own way. I'm not saying that. There's nothing about that. They had Danny Green too. You forgot about Danny Green. They had a lot of good role players on that team. I just think that Denver team was, was pretty awesome and I will take them in a long seven game slog.
29:22 Bill Simmons? I feel the same way. Plus Jokic was on that 23 playoffs that Jokic had is one of the all time heaters. I think he was 31, 14 and 11 or something. Shot 50% from three. Crazy. All right. Last one's a fun one. Knicks in Toronto and you have OG and Inobi on both teams, but we have to factor in the appendicitis for OG and Inobi. So he's wiped out in the Toronto side, but playing for the Knicks side. And all due respect for Toronto, which I think was the prototype for the, every single guy in our team can create a shot for themselves. Which was really one of the first times we had seen that with a, with a title team. Kawhi was great that year, but I think the Knicks beat them.
30:03 Speaker 02 How many games? Do you think it's a good series?
30:05 Bill Simmons? I had Knicks in six. It were going into Toronto and when, and.
30:10 Speaker 02 Going into the Air Canada Center?
30:11 Bill Simmons? Oh, no, that would be, they would be winning in MSG. Regardless, Knicks in six. What'd you have?
30:17 Speaker 02 I think this is a tougher one than I initially just circled Knicks because A, my brain is dumb and they, this just happened. And so I'm overrating them in my head probably a little bit. But they are just an awesome team. They solved all comers. They just had the highest point differential in history of the playoffs. That Raptors and our last memory of that Raptors team is tainted by Durant injury, Klay injury. Kawhi was kind of running out of gas toward the end of that series and Van Vliet carried him over the finish line.
30:46 Bill Simmons? Van Vliet heat check.
30:48 Speaker 02 Young Siakam, young Ananobi didn't play, but young Siakam was already really good. The Abakasol combo was really good. It's a really versatile, well-rounded, two-way team. I'm gonna give them a seven-game loss to the Knicks. I think they take the Knicks to the distance in that series, but I'm taking the Knicks.
31:06 Bill Simmons? That sounded like somebody that's going to Toronto for a World Cup game in two days. Didn't want to be yelled at.
31:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, look.
31:12 Bill Simmons? Next, next round is much better and much tougher.
31:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm not gonna like what's gonna happen in this, in this room.
31:19 Bill Simmons? We have OKC in the Knicks and we have Denver and the Celtics. And I think that's an easier one. I think Denver beats the Celtics. Jokic always beats the Celtics. And I don't care how good that 24 Celtics team was. I don't think we're beating the 23 Nuggets, unfortunately. So I have them in six. The other one's a tough one. Who'd you have in the Denver series?
31:39 Speaker 02 That, that's the, like, the dream series we didn't get, right? Like, that whole season when Boston got, won the title, the dream was Denver, Boston. Like, the, although the two regular season matchups were like the most amped up matchups, the most hyped up matchups of the season. I remember vividly watching one on a plane and praying the wifi would stay strong enough for me to continue watching the game because they didn't have live TV on this particular flight. I went back and forth. I'll take Denver in seven, just defaulting again to they have the best player and that team was just humming like Aaron Gordon. It's like peak Aaron Gordon, peak Bruce Brown, peak, peak everybody involved pretty much. And so I will take Denver in seven, but I think that Celtics team was, was
32:18 Speaker 02 awesome and solved some of its like late game, you know, whatever yips or whatever they had.
32:25 Bill Simmons? No question. That would have been an awesome series. OKC over New York is an even tougher call. I went with OKC in seven because of all the dudes they would have had to throw up Brunson. I think the big what if of these playoffs that we just had is if OKC just beats San Antonio in seven, do we feel much better about San Antonio than we did after five finals games? And then that OKC team was just, all my Knicks fan friends were like. Thank God we didn't have to play OKC. That was a much tougher matchup for us. So I would go OKC in seven in that one, but I really waffled and I couldn't decide.
33:07 Speaker 02 My heart wants to take the Knicks.
33:09 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
33:10 Speaker 02 And I think, I think the Knicks, again, their level of problem, they're a very difficult team to play against. They're the unusual team in a lot of respects with a, with this six foot nothing guard who gets whatever he wants in a shooting five and all this wing versatility, wing size around them. I mean, what do you make of Oklahoma City needing seven to beat Denver with Michael Porter Jr. Playing with one arm and Aaron Gordon playing with one leg and then seven to beat Indiana? Like, like this is what I struggle with because again, if you're just going to go on
33:38 Bill Simmons? The newness.
33:39 Speaker 02 On paper, regular season plus combined resumes is Oklahoma City and it's not close. But the playoff resumes are New York's run better, however you want to quantify it was certainly more dominant, easier conference, albeit. I think I might actually take the Knicks in seven to win, to win this matchup over that specific Oklahoma City Thunder team. I think I might, I think something
34:00 Bill Simmons? Just because of the inexperience and
34:02 Speaker 02 I, I just, it wasn't, it was a very good playoff run by Oklahoma City, great championship run. I just think something crazy happened with the Knicks and they just found Nirvana and found magic. So I'll just whatever. This is a fun extra. I'm taking the Knicks in seven. Forget it. Sorry.
34:18 Bill Simmons? It's a great one. I, uh, here's, here's why I took OKC.
34:23 Speaker 02 They're amazing. There's no wrong answer.
34:25 Bill Simmons? Just all the guys to throw Brunson, which San Antonio had, but the difference is in the last five minutes, OKC had Shay and San Antonio didn't have anybody. And that's why they kept losing those Knicks games.
34:35 Speaker 02 I'm just me.
34:36 Bill Simmons? So I have finals, Denver, I have over OKC. So, um, just because they came so close to beating OKC anyway, and that 23 Denver team was way better. So that one was an easier one for me. So you have Denver versus New York in your matchup. So who do you have?
34:53 Speaker 02 I went Denver in seven. It's crazy that we both ended with the 23 Nuggets who were pilloried for having two play in teams in their playoff run. And, uh, and how soft it was in playing Miami in the finals and all that. Uh, I think, you know, power ranking these. I think 23 Denver, 25 OKC, 26 Nick. The last four to me are stronger than the early parts of
35:17 Bill Simmons? I agree with that.
35:17 Speaker 02 of the run. The last four are really, really good, single season teams, just awesome teams, top to bottom.
35:23 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I think the 23 Nuggets were the best of the eight. So we agree. Okay. It's fake trade season for the next part of the mailbag. First one's from Mac. He said, I have to say that you were early and so right about Harper. I'll take all I noticed Dylan Harper was awesome compliments in the preseason, which was the single easiest thing to know. I know that Dallas is contractually obligated to have their best player be a white guy.
35:48 Bill Simmons? But hypothetically,
35:49 Speaker 02 Okay.
35:49 Bill Simmons? let's say you were the Spurs GM and Dallas calls offering flag for Harper. Do you say yes? What if the Wizards call and offer you the first pick for Harper? Harper is not getting traded for any pick in this draft. I've already litigated that. Flag for Harper is more interesting. Dallas obviously isn't trading flag. Nobody's trading anybody. But I'm wondering what, from what we know now, I still think flag should go first, but I, I did waffle way more than I would have two months ago.
36:18 Speaker 02 So the question is not who goes first in the draft. It's do the Spurs, who says no to flag for Harper? Or do the Spurs say yes or no?
36:25 Bill Simmons? I mean, it's actually a better trade for San Antonio because they already have a point guard, right?
36:30 Speaker 02 I think, I, I just think they say no anyway, because what they just saw with Harper in the playoffs is a known commodity. They've gotten a year to know him and within their walls, they know how he fits with Wemba Yama. He's a more, I, I, it's a, it's a more of a sea change to go to flag as the supersized point forward. You look, you can't lose with either of them, but I, I think they would probably be like,
36:50 Bill Simmons? I think it's a double no. I think it's a double no.
36:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, it could be. I mean, yeah, the Mavs, the Mavs aren't in a hurry. The Mavs are saying no as well, for sure.
36:57 Bill Simmons? Yeah, they hang up faster. Flag on that Spurs team would have been fascinating, like literally what they needed. Not that Harper wasn't what they needed, but flag next to Wemby would have been really fun. This one's a little more realistic, even though I don't think it happens from Aaron in Oregon. Who says no? Austin Reeves for Jalen Durin, double sign and trade. Lakers get their big for Luca, Detroit gets a perfect fit next to Cade, avoids overpaying Durin. And then he adds, also, is everyone sleeping on Dame freaking Lillard joining this Portland team that got a win in San Antonio?
37:29 Speaker 02 So he's
37:30 Bill Simmons? Dame's coming back.
37:31 Speaker 02 He just did the two-part question that you do at the press conference when you only get one question. They add them two-part for you and they're just completely unrelated. It's like, hey, what about expansion? B aspiration, not finishing anytime soon. Thanks. I'll take it from here. Yeah, we are sleeping on Dame. It's, I'll talk more about Portland later. What was the first part? I already forgot. This is the danger of the two-part question.
37:52 Bill Simmons? Durin, Durin Reeves, double sign and trade.
37:54 Speaker 02 So who's, I'm just going beef stew, Paul Reed, all in on those guys and finding a center down the line. It's like Austin Reeves is a better player right now than Jalen Durin. I feel like his, they, they need secondary creation around Cade. They more urgently need what regular season Jalen Durin was in terms of like rim running, all that stuff. So I'm just, I'm, that's too much. These are huge changes. I'm saying no, it's too much for me to contemplate as the Detroit Pistons.
38:22 Bill Simmons? I'm saying no as well for both teams. I do think Detroit needs to get Durin somewhere between 30 and 34 to 5.
38:30 Speaker 02 Seems doable to me.
38:31 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I don't think, I didn't, he can't be a max guy. This next one's fun. From Jovel. Clips trade fifth pick for Paolo Bencaro. Clips already have Garland, drafting guard is redundant. Magic could choose Acuff to pair with Suggs and Franz and fix their luxury tax issues. What are your thoughts? It did make me pause. As earlier in the podcast, I had a Jalen Brown for the five. You said that wasn't on the Boston timetable, which you're right. This is a little more on the Magic timetable. Pretty good trade.
39:04 Speaker 02 That's a good one.
39:05 Bill Simmons? So basically it's Acuff and you save 35 million on the cap.
39:09 Speaker 02 And Bencaro is still very young, so it's sort of a, although he's making a max salary, my whole thing about the Clippers and being just overjoyed to have a blue chip young guy kind of still applies.
39:21 Speaker 02 Clippers got to think hard about that. Got to think really hard about that. There is something a little depressing about pairing two of like, two guys who are leaving disappointing postseason teams. Or I guess the Cavs are no longer a disappointing postseason team, but Garland and Ben Carroll feels like, hey, we got, we got the discards from teams that just didn't do quite as much as, didn't play quite as well in the playoffs as we wanted. That's a good one. I don't know if, the way, the film I've watched of the draft, guys with the Clippers, I'm just saying, I'm gonna make the pick. I'm making a pick. There's enough guys that I would love to have on my team that I'm just gonna make the pick.
39:57 Bill Simmons? Would you trade the fifth pick for Mobley?
40:05 Bill Simmons? That one gets really interesting because that solves a lot of luxury tax shit for Cleveland, too.
40:09 Speaker 02 I probably, I think, ah, that's hard. That's hard. As the Clippers, as the Clippers, I probably would. And I just think Mobley's a little bit more, is he better than Ben Carroll? I think he is a little bit better than Ben Carroll, just because of what he could do defensively. He's like a total known A-plus commodity, and he's very young, but.
40:27 Bill Simmons? See, I wouldn't do that trade if I was the Cavs.
40:30 Speaker 02 You would.
40:31 Bill Simmons? I would not, because I, it's all guards on the fifth pick, and I think I would rather.
40:37 Speaker 02 Oh, I wasn't even thinking about it from their perspective. I don't think.
40:39 Bill Simmons? For the Clips, I would do it.
40:40 Speaker 02 I don't think they're moving Mobley almost for anyone right now, so.
40:45 Bill Simmons? Good. They shouldn't. Adam from Santan Valley, Arizona, had a three-teamer where the Warriors got Anthony Davis and Klay Thompson. Washington got Jimmy Butler and the 11th pick from Golden State. And Dallas got Pods and Moses Moody, in the trade exception from AD. The 11th is way too much for Anthony Davis. I don't think he has that kind of value. I do feel like there's a next year's first from Golden State. With the Butler expiring for Davis is like in the vicinity of what I think. And I don't think Davis wants to be in Washington and neither do you. But I don't think he's worth the 11th pick with the injury history over the years and his age and his salary.
41:26 Speaker 02 The Warriors just, you gotta, you just gotta think a little bit about tomorrow too. And I think they've been pretty open about that. Like we, yes, we want to win around Steph. Yes, Anthony Davis would help. You gotta think a little bit about, about tomorrow. Why was Dallas in that trade? What was Dallas getting out of it?
41:42 Bill Simmons? Just to get Klay Thompson back on Golden State, which I fully support. I think Adam was thinking right. All right, this is the best one from Doug from Sleepy Hollow. You discuss Chicago Memphis trades to get Peterson to Chicago with House. But the ideal one is staring us in the face. Number three for number four and a sick new Hyatt in downtown Memphis.
42:05 Speaker 02 Oh, come on.
42:06 Bill Simmons? One of the weird subplots of the season, finding out NBA players hate Memphis because of the hotel. Well, the governor of Illinois is rich because his family owns Hyatt. And he's currently taking heat from Illinois sports fans because the Bears are threatening to move to Indiana. With one move, everyone wins. Bulls get Peterson, Memphis gets Wilson and a luxury Hyatt in downtown Memphis.
42:26 Speaker 02 But that's not helping me as the Memphis. That's not helping me as the Memphis Grizzlies. It's helping my opponents rest better and be happier when they come to my city and I want them to be unhappy.
42:38 Bill Simmons? Yeah. So Memphis says no, they're like this hotel thing's an advantage for us. The players are pissed. They don't sleep well. They can't get good room service. Like we like where we are with this. Screw you. They hang up. Oh, this was the Jalen Brown trade that got, uh, this is from Sean T. Jalen Brown and Hauser for Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon.
42:58 Speaker 02 Ooh, that got an ooh out of me.
43:02 Bill Simmons? It's funny because Jalen Brown and Jamal Murray was the big Boston. Who are they going to take at three, 10 years ago in the 2016 draft? Jamal Murray was one of the guys people thought Boston was going to take. Jalen Brown and Hauser for Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon. And Denver would save a little money on that one too.
43:20 Speaker 02 They'd save a lot of money. We're going to have to ignore that element of, I think it's $81 million coming back to the Celtics. And Jalen is at 57 and Hauser is at 67 for 81, 68 for 81.
43:30 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you could throw in one more to make that work potentially. Pretty good one.
43:37 Bill Simmons? Wow, this wow, you're really deliberating on this one. I like this one. So this will give the Celtics Murray with Derrick White, Pritchard off the bench, Aaron Gordon, Tatum. You're still hurting at center a little bit. But that would be it.
43:53 Speaker 02 I think I'm a no if I'm Boston. Just because.
43:58 Bill Simmons? Oh, I thought it would be Denver. That would be the no.
44:00 Speaker 02 I mean, it could. It could be either, honestly. Again, no, I have no prep for this listeners. This is just being thrown at me blind.
44:07 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that's, that's what we love. I love torturing with this.
44:10 Speaker 02 The Gordon leg issues are really worrisome to me and I just like, like $95 million of Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon in 2029 makes me a little nervous if I'm the Celtics. And I care a little bit about like maybe cleaning up my books at some point, which is one of the things you've talked about with, with Jalen.
44:28 Bill Simmons? It's a double no. I think the more realistic one would just be Jalen for Jamal Murray straight up with maybe some massaging from the Denver side. Randy in Sacramento would like to propose the following King special.
44:41 Speaker 02 Oh, boy.
44:41 Bill Simmons? Where everyone wins. The Spurs received Demontes Sabonis. Hawks received De'Aaron Fox and the Kings get Reese Shae, Kaminga and the Spurs 20th pick and maybe their pick swap back. I'll go way more simple than this. What if it's just Fox to the Hawks, Reese Shae and Kaminga to Sacramento and Sabonis and Buddy Hill to San Antonio? No picks, nothing else. That actually works on the trade machine.
45:06 Speaker 02 This person needs assistance immediately. This is absolutely an insane trade.
45:13 Bill Simmons? Insane for who?
45:14 Speaker 02 Everybody involved. So, so the Spurs are like, hey, we just made the finals and won 60 whatever games. Like, how about we upend everything and try to pair Sabonis with Victor Wembanyama? That sounds amazing.
45:27 Bill Simmons? How about some rebounds?
45:28 Speaker 02 The Hawks are like, hey, we're a pretty good young team. Yeah, we just resigned CJ McCollum for one year. You know what sounds great? Four years and $220 million of De'Aaron Fox for a guy who just picked at number one and Jonathan Kaminga. And I, and then the Kings are getting what? They're getting Kaminga and Reese Shae.
45:47 Bill Simmons? Opting for Kaminga and they get Reese Shae. That's it. That's all they get.
45:49 Speaker 02 That's actually, that's actually not even, the Kings are not making out like bandits there for a guy who called this Sacramento presumably fan who called it the King special. That one, that one broke me a little bit. It broke my spirit. It broke my morale. I'm a little flustered by that one.
46:05 Bill Simmons? Sorry, Randy. And then the last one's from Ellis in New York, who says he loves the pod. I know the Nuggets have no plans to trade Jokic.
46:12 Speaker 02 Okay, let's go. I was waiting for this one.
46:14 Bill Simmons? But could the Thunder offer something like J-Dub and picks for Jokic and Aaron Gordon? What's the motherload? How far could it go? It did. So I texted you and I was like, got this Jokic trade. They're not trading Jokic.
46:26 Speaker 02 You texted me. I just want to be clear. 55 minutes before the scheduled start time of this podcast, you just texted me, hey, build some fair, realistic Jokic trade. Okay.
46:39 Bill Simmons? They're not going to trade him, but I do think if they ever did, Utah would be the team. Cause it's reasonably close to Denver. Is that who you had too?
46:46 Speaker 02 I have six teams. That's how I roll, Bill. You give me 55 minutes, notice I give you six teams.
46:51 Bill Simmons? All I needed was one. I can't believe you had six.
46:53 Speaker 02 Ellis gave me, Ellis gave you one, which is okay. Season obvious one. You pair Shea and Jokic and you just figure out the rest. I wouldn't trade both Chet and J-Dub, but one of them.
47:03 Bill Simmons? I wouldn't either, but Chet 12, 17, Kason Wallace and a couple others.
47:08 Speaker 02 They get, Kason's got to be in it. Give me Sorber. They own the rights to multiple Denver first round picks. So I get my picks back. Like there's a lot of stuff there and Utah's, I'm surprised you landed on Utah too. Cause I have, there's, there's a Utah trade to be made. The problem is I really want to sign and trade Walker Kessler as part of that trade if I'm the Jazz and the Nuggets, because of the apron stuff, can't take a player back who's acquired into sign and trade because I don't, he's the one if I'm getting Jokic. So I have to make, I have to make a three team trade and it gets a little complicated. It was, here's my question. In your Utah trade, was the number two pick involved?
47:42 Bill Simmons? Yeah, 100,000%.
47:43 Speaker 02 Okay.
47:44 Bill Simmons? Yeah. It's, it's a full blow it up for Utah. That was the only one. Yeah. I had a number two marketing, all the other picks they have where they, they basically, and I had them keeping Kessler in the trade. Not just for the reason you mentioned, but I also kind of like the idea of Kessler and Jokic together.
48:01 Speaker 02 Okay.
48:02 Bill Simmons? But Utah is one of the few teams that could make a fuck you offer, I think. And you also have to figure you want Jokic to be happy and he kind of likes being on that side in the mountains. Just you don't have to say what the other offers were, but what were the other four teams you had?
48:17 Speaker 02 I want to, I want to say.
48:19 Bill Simmons? Oh, go.
48:20 Speaker 02 All right. So first of all, here are the three different challenges for this, right? Whatever team get, we're seeing now with Yanis, whatever team gets Jokic has to be in position to win immediately. That's number one. Number two, their picks in this new lottery world have to have some upside for me as Denver, where it's like, okay, I'm not going to get the 25th pick every year. And number three, Jokic has to be willing to sign an extension. So we talked about Utah, we talked about OKC. Houston, Shangoon, Jabari Smith Jr., Nets pick, Suns pick, a bunch of swaps, Rockets pick. So I get bites at the apple from different, from different teams who could bottom out in the right year.
49:00 Speaker 02 Portland, Donovan Kling and Scoot Henderson, Jeremy Grant, all the Bucks picks, all the Blazers picks. Anything of interest there for you?
49:09 Bill Simmons? You get all the Milwaukee stuff.
49:12 Bill Simmons? I don't know if Portland has the headliner for that trade necessarily.
49:15 Speaker 02 No, Kling and plus Scoot is not as sexy as it, as it might have been.
49:19 Bill Simmons? No, the number two pick to me is a much more important headliner.
49:23 Speaker 02 Charlotte, LaMelo Ball or Brandon Miller, take your pick. Number 14, number 18, Solon, a Mavs pick, a Heat pick, all the future Charlotte picks.
49:36 Speaker 02 No?
49:36 Bill Simmons? No. And I need, if I'm trading Joker, I need something incredible back.
49:43 Speaker 02 The Lakers, the Lakers straight up for Luka Doncic.
49:48 Speaker 02 Just because I thought you'd have a little fun with that one.
49:55 Bill Simmons? Hold on, let's talk this out.
49:57 Speaker 02 I keep LeBron, Reeves, and I get Jokic, and we're going all in to win the title with that group.
50:02 Bill Simmons? I have to throw in more than-
50:03 Speaker 02 We're not gonna have a lot of defense, but we already don't have enough-
50:06 Bill Simmons? I have to throw in more Luka though, more than Luka, right? I gotta throw in a pick or two with that? Future something? Anything?
50:13 Speaker 02 I don't know, I mean-
50:14 Bill Simmons? That's pretty good. Wyndham Clark just won the US Open.
50:19 Speaker 02 My guy, I've always, I've always said-
50:22 Bill Simmons? You always said Wyndham would do-
50:23 Speaker 02 Wyndham Clark is my guy.
50:25 Bill Simmons? David Sherman said, "One of my favorite takes you've ever had is the NBA should award larger or smaller trophies to the NBA champion, depending on how important and impressive the run or triumph is. What size would you give the Knicks after this year? Obviously, no one is getting a bigger trophy than the 2011 Mavs." Blah, blah, blah. So, I actually, that idea was for the MVP, not the NBA,
50:46 Bill Simmons? not the Lawrence O'Brien Trophy. Because I feel like every championship is special.
50:52 Speaker 02 I'd like to, I'd like to just throw out the trophy's full name, not the Larry O'Brien.
50:56 Bill Simmons? But Lawrence, I call it Lawrence. Ironically, probably the worst commissioner the league's ever had.
51:03 Bill Simmons? Just overwhelming amount of evidence. I think this is a better idea for the MVP, because we have some incredible, you know, like the Shaq 2000 or LeBron 2012 MVPs, where it's just like, these are the biggest 40-pound MVPs. And then there's the other ones where like, Karl Malone during the lockout was a great one.
51:23 Speaker 02 Every chance, every chance you get to-
51:25 Bill Simmons? It's like a free pounder.
51:26 Speaker 02 I want to tell people, both privately and publicly, any chance you get to slander Karl Malone, you're not passing it up.
51:32 Bill Simmons? I feel great about it.
51:33 Speaker 02 I have text threads with Karl Malone slander, it's just endless.
51:38 Bill Simmons? Feel, I feel, one of my least favorite non-Celtics ever.
51:42 Speaker 02 I wish he had had a cup of coffee with the Celtics at the end of his career.
51:45 Bill Simmons? So, the trophies, if we, if we gave them three, maybe three sizes only for how impressive the run was?
51:54 Bill Simmons? I still feel like the 2011 Mavs would be higher than this Knicks title, but I still thought it was really impressive. It was a level two for me. It was level one, level two, level three being the highest.
52:05 Speaker 02 Three is the highest.
52:07 Bill Simmons? And that's really just 2011 Mavs. I don't even know who else is on that. This was a solid level two.
52:13 Speaker 02 The level is, are we combining difficulty, memorability?
52:18 Bill Simmons? Yeah, the whole package. Yeah, the historical significance. The Knicks had a bunch of it, but I don't know the path. I don't know you could get them.
52:28 Speaker 02 I think this is a level three. I think the Knicks just had a level three. And my case would be 16 and three in the playoffs, greatest point differential in the history of the playoffs. Collision with Wemba Yama, which we will always remember because the next face of the league and all of that entered a hero and left a villain in very simplistic terms. And first title in 53 years for the biggest market and one of the most historic franchises. And so I think it's a level three despite the fact that you could nitpick the opposition. It's a level three.
52:57 Bill Simmons? You know what else? You're right. And you left out the greatest comeback in the history of the sport.
53:02 Speaker 02 The one of the most iconic plays of all time.
53:04 Bill Simmons? It's a level three. My apologies Knicks fans. You were, it was a level three title. This next email is really good. It's from Sean in Charlotte who fancies himself as an amateur NBA historian. He said, "The Knicks playoff run was 100% unbelievable. I clocked your Shawshank Redemption reference in your June 14th podcast. Was the Patriots 2001 Super Bowl like this for you? Do you actively remember thinking you didn't have to cringe at that refrigerator pair of Super Bowl touchdown anymore the rest of your life?" And he's right. But he said, "Seeing Patrick Ewing hugging Carl Towns was genuinely emotional. People I don't have to think about anymore. Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Hugh Hollins, Phil Jackson, Hakeem, Reggie Miller, Rick
53:48 Bill Simmons? Smits, Pat Riley, PJ Brown, Scott Layden, Isaiah Thomas, Kurt Rambis, Jeff Hornacek, David Fizdale, Trey Young, and Tyrese Halliburton." That was Sean in Charlotte. And it's such a great point. When you win a title, all of these horrible skeletons you have in your Poltergeist pool just vanish into dust.
54:05 Speaker 02 Why did he include Hugh Hollins?
54:08 Bill Simmons? Hugh Hollins? That was the, the...
54:10 Speaker 02 That was a phantom foul in the Knicks favor, was it not?
54:13 Bill Simmons? I know, but then it led to them making the finals. So maybe he sees Hugh Hollins and it led to more pain. I don't know why he included him.
54:20 Speaker 02 Okay.
54:20 Bill Simmons? Um, but it's a great point because I remember when the Red Sox won in oh four and the Aaron Boone game had happened the year before. Remember when the Yankees won in in?
54:30 Speaker 02 I remember exactly where I was.
54:32 Bill Simmons? Yeah. And that was going to haunt me the rest of my life. And then the Red Sox beat the Yankees the next year. And all of a sudden that Aaron Boone homer, nothing, means nothing to me anymore. It's just dead. And that's what happens when you win a title is all the, all the skeletons just vanish.
54:47 Speaker 02 I felt terrible. I remember exactly where I was in that game. I, I was a neutral party in as much as, I was not a neutral party. I was a Mets fan growing up, but my dad is a Red Sox fan. So I was cheering for the Red Sox. I, I was at the, I think it was called the Lion's Head on the Upper West Side slash Morningside Heights. And it was, it was the, it was a mixed crowd, half Yankees fans, half Red Sox fans, rowdy. I just remember RIP feeling the absolute worst for Tim Wakefield, who just had made such a great career out of being a knuckleballer, was an Iron Man, an Ennings Eater, beloved member of that team. And just watching him walk off the mound, I just, man, this, this, anybody, I would have been, I would have felt less bad if it had almost been anybody on the Red Sox but him that gave up that homer.
55:31 Bill Simmons? So beloved that none of us held it against him that he gave up the season ending homer. We all loved Tim Wakefield. It was never, it wasn't like a Calvin Chiraldi, Bob Stanley thing. And then a year later, he became one of the playoff heroes. Yeah. But that is a great part of winning the title.
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57:30 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. Jeff from New York. Now it's gonna get a little dark. But the Knicks looking the best they've been in completing, owning the city with this title. It's officially over for the Brooklyn Nets. They are a zombie franchise playing in a gentrified mall.
58:14 Bill Simmons? Why not move the Nets to Las Vegas? Buy out Robert Parra, move the Grizzlies to Seattle, and let the new ownership groups pay a massive relocation entry fee to the other 30 owners instead of expansion? You still get a lot of money. Seattle gets Sonic back. Vegas gets a roster. We don't have to watch 30 win expansion teams. Who says no? I do wonder, did the size, you think, have like a secret meaning? Being like, is this ever gonna work here? What do we do?
58:42 Speaker 02 I mean, I think, I think this is not even a... I mean, the relocation thing is a little bit crazy, but this whole like existential crisis of the Brooklyn Nets as a franchise is a real thing because if you did like ancillary winners and losers of the finals and the playoffs and the Knicks title run, the Nets are near the top of the list because this just underlined... Irrelevant is too strong of a word, but New York is a multi-team town for every sport, seemingly except NBA basketball and I guess WNBA basketball because of the Liberty, who the size also own are like a phenomenal fan experience and a great team.
59:21 Speaker 02 It's just like this, this high, like I, I, I found myself imagining what would a Nets parade look like if, if they had won during the Durant, it would not have been like that. It would not have felt like that.
59:34 Bill Simmons? It would have been 20 to 10% like that.
59:37 Speaker 02 And I, and why I find it interesting is because obviously the Nets have been kind of tanking since that team broke up and failed. The lottery gods have not been kind to them. They were not kind to them again. They're picking sixth on Tuesday and they have just drafted a bunch of point guards. That's a point guard spot. I just wonder sort of how aggressive the size want to be. I'm like, hey, we got it. Like we, this is embarrassing. Like we got to put something together that creates a little buzz and I'm not sure how we do that. Like, do we want to go out and get this guy? That guy? I just, I'm interested to see how they respond because I do think the Knicks winning and the, the outpouring of emotion from the entirety of New York City is like
1:00:20 Speaker 02 a, a meaningful material change to like what the Brooklyn Nets mean to the NBA. I really do. I'm sorry to Nets fans.
1:00:27 Bill Simmons? By the way, I was lying underneath for decades. The opportunity with the Nets was that the Knicks run had been so awful for 20 years. Could you steal some Knicks fans based on how poorly run and weird?
1:00:40 Speaker 02 Durant and Kyrie were like earmarked earmarked for the Knicks and they went to the Nets and that was in that whole thing. And then they got hardened and we fucked it ad nauseam about that.
1:00:50 Bill Simmons? I wa, I actually watched the foot on the line three from Durant. It's like mass chaos in Barclays. That has to be the loudest and crazy when he makes it and actually goes in and the fans thought they win. So there was some energy there. And if you're the size, you have to think like, okay, well, go back and watch some of those games. Like there wasn't nothing.
1:01:06 Speaker 02 No, it wasn't nothing.
1:01:08 Bill Simmons? I honestly feel the same way about the Clippers. I just think LA is a Laker town. There's very few Clipper fans and I don't really fully understand why Ballmer just wouldn't move to Seattle and just be like, you know what? I tried to, obviously he can't now because he just built this into a dome and he's just kind of all in. But there's just a couple of teams. It's the same reason why we don't have two teams in Chicago.
1:01:32 Bill Simmons? The NBA makes way more sense and works better. I wouldn't, Memphis wouldn't be the team I move. I would move New Orleans if I had to pick a team to move. That would be the, that would be the one. We've never seen professional basketball succeed ever in New Orleans. And it's not the fault of the fans, but it's a small market and a team that's run horribly. And if you were just gonna say relocation, Nets somewhere and, and the Pelicans somewhere and we don't have expansion.
1:01:59 Speaker 02 Here's the other thing.
1:01:59 Bill Simmons? That makes more sense to me.
1:02:01 Speaker 02 This is maybe obvious, but here's the other thing that happened with this Knicks title run. An entire group of young fans in Brooklyn, in Queens, in every borough and every area of New York. They're now Knicks fans forever. You've lost an entire generation. Even some fans who maybe like flirted with being a Nets fan have now pivoted to, to being Knicks fans.
1:02:23 Bill Simmons? I watched it happen in Boston after I left with the Bruins because the Bruins, the owner and some of the stuff that the Bruins really like faded and became like just hardcore Bruins fans and nobody else. And then this new Bruins group came in and completely rejuvenated the city on the Bruins. And the same thing happened with the Patriots and all of a sudden you had all these people who were, you know, under 25, under 30 that just love those teams. That might not have been there and the same thing's gonna happen with the Knicks. All right. You had no prep for this question.
1:02:51 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:02:52 Bill Simmons? From Joshua. "I was thinking about all the sets of NBA brothers. All-Star Weekend should capitalize by creating a brothers two-on-two tournament. What would that look like?" I'll give you the eight, uh, eight brother teams.
1:03:04 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:03:04 Bill Simmons? The Thompsons, Dylan and Ron Harper, Giannis and pick a brother, Franz and Mo Wagner, Jalen and Coda Williams, Aaron and Drew Holiday, Kason and Keaton Willis.
1:03:16 Speaker 02 Wallace.
1:03:17 Bill Simmons? And, uh, I'm sorry, Wallace and Steph and Seth Curry.
1:03:22 Bill Simmons? So it basically comes down to, I would say the Thompson Twins versus the Harpers in the finals would be my guess. Unless you just think Giannis could one man it.
1:03:34 Speaker 02 I really would be curious of who Giannis would pick.
1:03:37 Bill Simmons? Wouldn't this tournament be amazing though?
1:03:39 Speaker 02 First of all, if anything is better than the Taco Bell, Pooley and Weed or Taco Bell Skills Challenge.
1:03:45 Bill Simmons? Three ball.
1:03:46 Speaker 02 Presented by Sprite.
1:03:47 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:03:49 Speaker 02 I think Giannis would try to pick all of his brothers and just sort of like sub them in and out. And I think the league would have to make him pick. No, you have to pick.
1:03:57 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:03:58 Speaker 02 One of them, only one, and you have to snub the others and create family drama that will last generations. You have to do it. I think the Thompsons find a way to bully and defend their way into beating the Harpers and everybody else. And that would be my pick, but Dylan Harper is the Dylan Harper, Ron Harper Jr., game seven starter.
1:04:14 Bill Simmons? Nice team.
1:04:14 Speaker 02 Ron Harper Jr. is a nice team.
1:04:15 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's a playoff experience for both. Thompsons, probably a rock fight with the Thompsons, but maybe, I don't know, I'd have them in the finals. Thompson Twins, minus 140 over the Harpers.
1:04:28 Speaker 02 Trying to score on those guys, two on two, my God, what a, what a.
1:04:33 Bill Simmons? The brother tournament, I love it.
1:04:37 Bill Simmons? This is from Stutz. He says, has the Luca Brunson Mavs team overtaken
1:04:44 Bill Simmons? the Harden, KD Westbrook, OKC team as the biggest, what if we kept this team together team of the 21st century?
1:04:52 Bill Simmons? In retrospect, none of those OKC guys proved they could will a team to a championship, single handedly. Brunson already did it, maybe Luca could do it someday. And then he says, time is luck. Stutz from Charlotte, that's a reference to, to Miami Vice, the movie. Time is luck, big theme, Heat too, Michael Mann.
1:05:12 Bill Simmons? So the only other one,
1:05:15 Bill Simmons? 2022, the only other one I would say is the, what if we kept the team together? But it's not this century was the 95 Magic. But I do think those two were in the finals. The Brunson thing in a lot of ways was even worse than the Harden.
1:05:31 Bill Simmons? The Harden trade, which we hated and I think we did multiple pieces of podcasts about it. First year we worked together.
1:05:38 Speaker 02 It's single handedly made Grantland's NBA coverage profitable and workable for like two years.
1:05:42 Bill Simmons? It's great. We loved it. We loved getting content out of the Harden trade because it was so stupid. The Brunson thing was worse because it was four for 55. And if you remember that last season.
1:05:55 Bill Simmons? Even though they said we weren't talking four for 55 during the season, Rick Brunson did go to Dallas and say, it was like in January of that last season, we'll do the four for 55 and Dallas is like, we don't know. I, I still don't understand it. It was inexplicable as it was happening.
1:06:11 Speaker 02 Well, it was, it was for trade purposes, right? Like that was why they, if they extended him, they couldn't trade him at that, that line in case something big came up for Luca. And it turned out that something big was on your team. Like the guy that just won finals MVP and scored 45 points and an all time great closeout performance.
1:06:26 Bill Simmons? So what do you think's the bigger, what if we kept this team together, team? It's probably still OKC because of the sheer totality of the guys.
1:06:33 Speaker 02 I, I think this, I think this is to pick Dallas is a little bit of a prisoner of the moment take because it was, it was just we like Luca and Brunson clearly could have been special together, but one was still coming off the bench for the most part. And yeah, those three guys together, all of whom have won MVPs in the regular season is just so iconic and had shit like was we had, we, we saw proof of concept. They make the finals as like in the roles that they were probably going to have, or Harden was going to start eventually. Uh, and then poof, it was gone so dramatically and so quickly. And they're all such iconic players for all different reasons that I, I still think that's the one.
1:07:13 Bill Simmons? The other thing Harden would have bought them was backup star power when either guy got hurt, which is what happened the next year in 2013 when Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. And then in I think 2015 with Durant.
1:07:26 Speaker 02 Everybody, yeah, they're from hell with injuries.
1:07:29 Bill Simmons? He also that four for 64, remember he goes to Houston? They immediately give him an even bigger contract than that. Four for 64 for Harden was like a bargain where the league was going post lockout. So yeah.
1:07:40 Speaker 02 I remember everything. I remember Harden's first game. I believe it was against the Detroit Pistons as a Rocket and it was immediate like, oh my God, this guy's going to actually do this game in and game out. Holy smokes.
1:07:54 Bill Simmons? Sid McCollum and Salem Morgan. He said, I was discussing me being the NBA commissioner and naming House as my deputy commissioner, just so he could announce the second round picks. It's a joke I made a month ago. And he said with House's affinity for food and drinks, my mind went to sponsorship opportunities. For each pick, House comes out with a different food or drink option from different sponsors and league partners. And says, Arby's Steak Bites brings us the 31st pick. And with that, the Knicks select blank. I'm not going to be the NBA commissioner. I still feel like House could do the second round and they could, they could have food sponsors for each pick. I think he would do better than Mark Tatum, honestly.
1:08:34 Speaker 02 I think it's a great idea.
1:08:36 Bill Simmons? I think he could be eating when he walks out on stage. Like, I think it works.
1:08:39 Speaker 02 I think a different surprise second round announcer every year is a great gimmick. Just keep, you just got to keep it under wraps and just, here comes the smoke machine.
1:08:49 Bill Simmons? The NFL does it.
1:08:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, I saw they had different people coming out, making different announcements, but just one guy could be, could be anyone. It could be a music artist, could be Joe House, it could be you, it could be anybody.
1:09:02 Bill Simmons? I'm available.
1:09:04 Speaker 02 The more, the more tough to pronounce names, the better for you.
1:09:08 Bill Simmons? Kobe from Oakland now in Vancouver says, Harper quickly emerges as a prodigy and potential great, but Fox is in his way. What similar NBA situations from the past can help us predict future outcomes? And he said the first one that came to mind for him was Curry Ellis, where it was the two of them together. Now, that team had never won anything. This team made the finals. So I came up with four and then I came up with the winner. I did not prep you for this.
1:09:33 Speaker 02 No.
1:09:34 Bill Simmons? There was a Cedric Maxwell, Kevin McHale situation where McHale eventually took over, but the, but it was kind of the way it was going to go anyway. So I don't think that counts.
1:09:42 Speaker 02 That was pretty seamless, the transition.
1:09:44 Bill Simmons? There was a James Worthy, Jamal Wilk situation on those Laker teams, but that was also, one guy was getting older, one guy was about to take over. I don't think that counts. There was a Jamal Wilk's Rick Barry mid 70s Warriors situation? That Jamal Wilk solved by signing with the Lakers as a free agent and we never found out. And then there was a Norm Nixon, Magic Johnson situation.
1:10:06 Speaker 02 That was the one I thought where you were going to, you were going to start with.
1:10:09 Bill Simmons? Where they traded Norm Nixon, got the number one pick from the Clippers, they took Byron Scott. Similar to the Jalen Brown trades we were talking earlier. I don't have that as my answer either, because that Laker team won a title. The answer is Adrian Dantley and Dennis Rodman. In the late 80s Pistons, when they traded Dantley because Rodman had to play more and that was the whole point of the trade. They had this absolute one of a kind rebounding defense force that just needed more minutes and Dantley wasn't ready to play less and they solved it by trading for Aguirre who was Isaiah's buddy.
1:10:45 Speaker 02 I was gonna say that's a whole Chicago connection, right? Between Mark Aguirre and Isaiah.
1:10:50 Bill Simmons? And they won two titles, but that's a really good parallel to this because Adrian Dantley, little bit older. The question for me with Fox, because there's some interesting stats about didn't finish at the rim as much this season. Not as fast, like he was probably the fastest or one of the fastest guys in the league, didn't seem as fast. So is there wear and tear? Is he getting older or was he just hurt this year? Did you land on an answer for that?
1:11:12 Speaker 02 I think it's probably a little bit of both. I mean, that level of speed and athleticism doesn't last forever. And then you throw in some playoffs, some ill time. He started the year coming back from, well, it was a some sort of leg injury, hamstring or shin or something, or calf rather or something. And then finished it with a high ankle sprain. But like also that's life in the NBA. How many guys, you're not getting through 100 games. Just like, oh, I was just healthy and energetic the entire year. That's just not realistic. And I just think like you can throw all the fake Fox trades you want out right now. Like, I don't think any team is trading for him without another season of him kind of rehabbing his game and his trade value a little bit. I don't see any realistic trade this offseason.
1:11:52 Bill Simmons? So you think he's a top five when Waz and House and I did the worst contracts draft? He's top five for you now? 221 for four years?
1:12:00 Speaker 02 It's, I mean, it's just, it's a huge number. And people are already like, well, is he the third best guard on his team? And he's a very, very good player. But if you're having that conversation and that number hasn't even kicked in yet, like it's probably in the top five.
1:12:14 Bill Simmons? It's a gulp and a sigh when you hear the numbers. It's like, oof. Steve from Tobaccoville, North Carolina.
1:12:24 Speaker 02 Sure.
1:12:24 Bill Simmons? He thinks we should have a playoffs participation trophy. Shout out to Vince Goodwill, which goes to.
1:12:35 Bill Simmons? Fitz is a nice guy, which goes to the team who lost to the team who lost to the team who lost to the team who lost in the finals. So he said,
1:12:44 Speaker 02 You're gonna have to.
1:12:46 Bill Simmons? Well, I'll walk you through it. The 26 trophy, our winner would have been the Houston Rockets. They lost to the Lakers, who lost to the Thunder, who lost to the Spurs, who lost to the Knicks. This trophy reminds the team's fan base that while they made the playoffs, they weren't anywhere close. Your thoughts?
1:13:01 Speaker 02 So it has to be a first round loser. It's a first round loser.
1:13:05 Bill Simmons? It's a first round loser who loses to the team that lost to the team three times in a row.
1:13:10 Speaker 02 Well, it's not, it's not dissimilar to the thing you hear from fans sometimes of, you know, our team loses in the second round and it's a crushing disappointment. We were the higher seed or whatever it is. And then, but the team we end up losing to ends up winning the titles. I kind of feel better about my, you know, my second round loss. It's a cousin of that. So the Rockets, the turnovers at the end of, what was it? Game two of that series? You're disqualified from all of the awards. I don't, I don't want any of the awards.
1:13:36 Bill Simmons? Maybe it's not an award. Maybe it's, maybe it's like a, like a voodoo doll or something.
1:13:41 Speaker 02 Did we ever figure out what, speaking of which, did we ever figure out what Missoula did with the coach of the year trophy? Do we, do we know that?
1:13:47 Bill Simmons? Oh my God. I look at eBay every day. I'm ready to bid on it on eBay.
1:13:52 Bill Simmons? It's definitely in his garage. Robbie wants to know if Jalen Brunson was actually the best free agent signing of all time and says, I find this hard to believe.
1:14:01 Speaker 02 You do, Robbie?
1:14:03 Bill Simmons? Well, I have a couple that I think were bigger.
1:14:06 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:14:07 Bill Simmons? I think Shaq to the Lakers in 96, eight years, three rings, four finals, one MVP. That's just a bigger signing than Brunson. Sorry. LeBron and Bosch, Durant to Golden State. That's two titles. LeBron back to Cleveland in 14 and then bringing Cleveland a title. I think has to be dead even with Brunson to the Knicks. So I would have it tied for fourth.
1:14:29 Speaker 02 I think part of the reason why people would make the argument that it should be higher, and I'm not sure that it is, the Shaq one is a great, is a great call and obviously like doomed Orlando forever and ever. And there's all sorts of controversy about who offered what and when and what went wrong and all that. Um, is it's the only one of those. It's not a max, right? Like Brunson is not a max and it, you kind of have to piggyback on top of it. The extension that wasn't a max that has allowed them to sort of wiggle around under the second apron for a little while here.
1:14:56 Bill Simmons? That's going to be Pablo's next five parts here. Well, he's a Knicks fan. I guess he can't do it. The Jalen taking less. I'm still, still dubious.
1:15:05 Speaker 02 I don't think there's any secrets there. He knew exactly what he was doing. He trusts that he's going to be taken care of on the back end because he knows all these people. They're his family and he wants to win and it helped them win. I don't think there's any like, I think it's a unique one of one situation that is, that is unreplicable.
1:15:23 Bill Simmons? Couple other ones. Gus Williams to Seattle. That led to a title. Jamal Wilk to the Lakers. Chauncey Billups to Detroit.
1:15:31 Bill Simmons? Ray Allen to Miami, the shot. Robert Horry to San Antonio in 2003. And then Nash to Phoenix was a great one. I think if the question is what's the savviest free agent of all time, signing of all time, I think Brunson might, might win. Where they went higher than a lot of people thought. Um, it was not a well received signing, right? It was four for 106 from a team that wouldn't pay him four for 55. And the way it worked out. Couple other random ones. Rashard Lewis and Carlos Boozer, both really good ones. Didn't lead the titles. Rashard Lewis led to a finals, but uh, okay. I'm really excited for this next question. We're almost done, by the way. James, James Phelps.
1:16:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:16:14 Bill Simmons? Have you been watching the World Cup, Zach Lowe?
1:16:17 Speaker 02 Uh, I don't want to talk about the World Cup, but yeah, I have been watching some of it.
1:16:21 Bill Simmons? He likes, James Phelps likes that in soccer, they have specific jersey numbers for certain positions. Attacking mid, number 10. Striker, nine. Defensive stopper, usually six. So what would you do for basketball and should we do it? So it's a two-part question. What would the numbers be? Cause he said like shooting guard, 23. Small forward, 33.
1:16:45 Bill Simmons? And would you like it more if the best players on teams wore the numbers that the best players wear like in soccer? I gotta say, I did thought experimented out and I kind of enjoyed it.
1:16:57 Speaker 02 I can't believe you, I can see you doing this. I can see you, you put out a pad and paper and you started, you took this.
1:17:03 Bill Simmons? Thought about it.
1:17:04 Speaker 02 Sometime in your life that could otherwise have been spent with your wife or children was spent, was spent on this.
1:17:11 Bill Simmons? The mailbag you have to take to the end with all questions. 23 shooting guard, 21 power forward in honor of Duncan.
1:17:20 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:17:20 Bill Simmons? Six for center.
1:17:24 Bill Simmons? For Bill Russell.
1:17:25 Speaker 02 Sure.
1:17:26 Bill Simmons? 33 small forward for Bird and then one or 32 for point guard. I would vote for 32 because of Magic. The thinking is the best guys ever would all get the numbers. But I do like, I do like the concept of like if San Antonio right now, it's like Harper, Fox is wearing 32, should Harper have it? It's the point guard number.
1:17:50 Speaker 02 Who's getting, yeah, okay. And Wemby would, Wemby would wear six in this.
1:17:54 Bill Simmons? Wemby would wear six.
1:17:55 Speaker 02 This is particularly artful what you're doing because LeBron is not represented except he is, he's worn 6 and 23 both.
1:18:02 Bill Simmons? So 23 in soccer, 10 is like the number.
1:18:05 Speaker 02 I know that much.
1:18:06 Bill Simmons? That's the best guys.
1:18:07 Speaker 02 Luka Modric.
1:18:08 Bill Simmons? So in this, we have 23, which is shooting guard, but it's also like LeBron basically could have played any position. It's not like you can pigeonhole him. So 23 is like the number and that's, you know, like Orlando, ah, Palo wanted 23, but Franz thinks he should have it. I think it opens up for a lot of drama.
1:18:25 Speaker 02 You're just creating trade rumors. You're just creating trade rumors. Whose team is it? Your whole, yours team is being perhaps.
1:18:30 Bill Simmons? Tatum's out for the year, Jalen wears, Jalen wears the 33.
1:18:35 Speaker 02 33?
1:18:36 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I do like this though.
1:18:39 Speaker 02 I think I've been, my mind immediately went to Jay Crowder can't be 99. We were just, we were censoring individual expression like this. I mean, like, you know, I like numbers. I like being able to pick my number.
1:18:52 Bill Simmons? Ethan from Cleveland says, when Giannis forces a trade, it'll be the second time this summer a team owned by Jimmy Haslem has traded a generational talent. He screwed up the Browns and Bucks so badly, his teams are forced to trade both Garrett and Giannis in the same offseason. Miles Garrett.
1:19:08 Bill Simmons? Does this move him toward the top of the list of one of the worst owners in recent sports history? I mean, just his Browns work alone has done that. I can't really hang the Buck stuff on him as much.
1:19:20 Bill Simmons? Cause when he got there, it was kind of, that was one of the reasons
1:19:25 Bill Simmons? that Lasbry sold in the first place, cause it was like, I'm going to get up from this blackjack table right now. Cause they just changed dealers on me and he just got out. With that said, it is pretty crazy that he presides over those two teams that just traded their two best franchise guys.
1:19:40 Speaker 02 They are one of the two teams, along with Phoenix, that I have to remind myself when I go on Spohtrack, I gotta scroll down a little further to the dead money section to get their true cap numbers. Like, oh, I, oh my God, Bradley Beal, what are you doing here? Damian Lillard, oh my God.
1:19:58 Bill Simmons? 22 a year for nothing.
1:20:00 Speaker 02 I did the, I did the Suns cap sheet earlier today because of their Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin deals. I was like, oh, they're in pretty good shape. And I scrolled, ah, tax.
1:20:09 Bill Simmons? Dead Money sounds like a movie we could rent on Roku.
1:20:15 Bill Simmons? Moses says, my question regarding Darren Peterson, why would anyone draft this guy in the top three? It's not often we see a guy with this many red flags pan out. I really think he's going to be a bust. I would gamble him at four, but I would much rather have the other three. Thanks. Love the podcast.
1:20:31 Speaker 02 What a, what a bust. So he's gonna, he's a bust and he's like, I'll take him at four. That's like, if you're a bust, just go all the, if he's a bust, don't take him, Moses.
1:20:39 Bill Simmons? Moses was all over the place. Um, I do think Peterson has enough red flags that.
1:20:45 Bill Simmons? The moment of truth, I'd be a little nervous when these other three guys I think are all going to be really, really, really awesome. You better really be sold on the reasons Peterson had the cramping stuff and some of the other stuff happened last year. I don't, where did you land on him? I mean, when you look at the YouTube clips, it's out of control.
1:21:01 Speaker 02 He's, he looks awesome. I think the upside, I think he has scary, scary upside. I would take him with one of the first two picks just because I've heard all of the teams have seen every bit of medical data that they would want to see and have come away feeling like, okay, like there's nothing here that is of long-term.
1:21:21 Bill Simmons? So you like them more than Boozer?
1:21:23 Speaker 02 I love Boozer.
1:21:24 Bill Simmons? Boozer's so good.
1:21:26 Speaker 02 He's incredible. I think his floor is maybe even higher than anyone else in the draft and his ceiling's pretty damn high, too. I just think those two guys as fulcrums of elite offenses could be so special that I don't know if I could take Boozer over any of them, over either DeBansa or Peterson. But I love Boozer. I was absolutely blown away by the Boozer tape, as I've mentioned several times on the Zach Lowe Show.
1:21:52 Bill Simmons? This is the most Zach Lowe question possible. It's from Connor in Bend, Oregon. Every time I listen to people praise the Knicks roster construction, I think to myself, my Blazers did it first. 2015, Dame, Wesley Matthews, Nick Batum, Aldridge, Robin Lopez. A season that ended with the Blazers getting dogwuck by Memphis, Dame getting his playoff lumps and Wes tearing his Achilles. With my dread at the possibility of our new owner moving the team, it's nice to imagine another reality where the Blazers won a championship. So Dame wasn't, Dame wasn't really Dame yet. In that playoffs in Memphis, he, he was 16%
1:22:32 Bill Simmons? from three. Memphis beat them in five. But he is right. That was the construction, was a little bit similar to that Knicks construction. Aldridge left after the season. That Blazers team, I went back, that team was really good on paper. They also, they traded for a Flalo. They had CJ McCollum, younger. They had Myers Leonard. They had Allen Crabbe, a year away from getting paid 72 million by the Nets. Pretty solid team. The Wes Matthews thing killed them, though.
1:23:00 Speaker 02 Uh, look, that could be my burner account from Ben Dorgan, who emailed that in.
1:23:05 Bill Simmons? I knew you'd love it.
1:23:06 Speaker 02 It's one of my most beloved. Forgotten teams ever. I absolutely love that team. It's Nick Batum, it's Robin Lopez, Wesley Matthews. Everything just came. They were a classic, greater than the sum of their parts team, and they were super fun to watch. And then one by one, it all kind of came undone, starting with West tearing his Achilles, and then LA leaves in free agency, I believe, after that playoff loss too. And so that was hanging over the team all year. It was a beautiful team to watch. They won a lot of games. And I do think they had an outside chance of having, like, making a finals, and they just didn't. And that's, that's tough, man. It's hard to win a title.
1:23:42 Bill Simmons? These two are related. One's from EB, who says he's a Homer Milwaukee fan. He gets upset that people don't mention Giannis' 50-point closeout game six. Why is Brunson's thing over that already? So he had a whole thing about that. And then Jordan from Hoboken said, everything you have said on your pods about Jalen Brunson should also apply to Eli Manning. Being an Alphano championship team trumps everything. Eli did it twice. You bumped Brunson all the way up to 41 on your Pantheon, or your pyramid. Imagine if he did what he did twice. Eli should be in the Hall of Fame, blah, blah, blah. Here's, here's the difference comparing Brunson to Eli Manning and Giannis. This will be the first podcast this week.
1:24:23 Speaker 02 This is, I can't wait for this.
1:24:29 Bill Simmons? There was a real inevitability with what was happening with Brunson in these fourth quarters that I think kind of, kind of trumped that. Yeah, as great as that Giannis 50-point game was, it was a lot of chewing your nails that he was going to make free throws, and he was on a little bit of a heater. And then Eli was basically, would have a couple of great throws, but it wasn't like he was dominant. Brunson broke the Spurs by game five. I just felt like, I just value a little differently what he did the playoffs, and especially game five. And I think it's hard to compare it.
1:25:05 Speaker 02 Um, Giannis, first of all, Giannis' 50-point closeout game is being mentioned because every graphic on television that has had like, here's where Jalen Brunson's closeout game ranks in NBA history is mentioning that game. It's an all-time classic game. The Drew, the Drew to Giannis Lob is one of the craziest, most iconic plays.
1:25:20 Bill Simmons? That was game five, though.
1:25:22 Speaker 02 Okay. No, that's the end of the series. That's the last game.
1:25:25 Bill Simmons? Game five was in Phoenix and then game six was the 50-point game. That was the game when he couldn't shoot the free throws.
1:25:32 Speaker 02 Um, but he has a preposterous free throw line in the closeout game.
1:25:37 Bill Simmons? Remember, he missed the two near the end of game five and it was a whole thing of, yo, Giannis' free throws. And then he went on the heater in game six. I just, I felt like Brunson was a level above it. Where, when it gets to the point where you're down 10 and you're just like, ah, here comes Brunson. That's, that's a whole other level.
1:25:55 Speaker 02 Against, against Wemba Yama and that defense, uh, too. I mean, look, they're all, it's all incredible, but Brunson, Brunson, Giannis, two great closeout games. And, and I don't, you know, I don't have a strong take. I, I guess Brunson, Brunson is just sexier because it's like a six-foot-nothing point guard in real time, problem solving.
1:26:14 Bill Simmons? It's a hard work title.
1:26:15 Speaker 02 Well, just problem solving. It's like, you're over there, you're over here, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And I'm just gonna get to my spot, no matter what you do, and make tough shots, tough, classic NBA shots. Giannis is not a classic NBA shot, shot maker. Brunson is.
1:26:29 Bill Simmons? Seth from 707 says, hey, conspiracy bill, was that finals loss all part of Wemba Yama's long game to convince us that he's not an alien?
1:26:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, interesting. So.
1:26:39 Bill Simmons? Like he's, like he zagged on us because he was like, if I win the title at age 22, they might investigate me. They might find out where I'm actually from. I really like this idea.
1:26:49 Speaker 02 As an X, as an old-school X-Files fan, I'm all about it. Have you seen Disclosure Day yet?
1:26:54 Bill Simmons? No, I still haven't.
1:26:55 Speaker 02 Neither have I. No, I haven't seen it yet. I might, it might be a solo, I'm just gonna drive to a movie theater in the middle of the day by myself and watch it.
1:27:05 Bill Simmons? Man, there's a Chris Paul question here that I'm gonna skip. It was about Chris Paul and the pyramid because we're running out of time. I'll save it for the next time.
1:27:15 Bill Simmons? Tiago wanted to mention that he's forever grateful for Leon Rose and the Knicks. Has there ever been a front office roster combination that saved the image of an owner more than these guys saved Dolan?
1:27:27 Speaker 02 That's a great question.
1:27:28 Bill Simmons? Who was considered one of the stupidest owners of all time, mishandled the team for decades in the market and now they win the title. It's a really good one. I didn't think of like, I couldn't think of another owner that had his legacy just flipped like that. The only one that was close was Steinbrenner in 96 because they had him one for 18 years. And he kinda, he went crazy Steinbrenner in the 80s and early 90s. It was like, oh my God, this guy's deranged. And then all of a sudden they filled around the farm system and they built this next dynasty. And it kind of flipped the Steinbrenner narrative again. So when I get the go.
1:28:04 Speaker 02 So deranged, they had Larry David made a Seinfeld caricature of him. People were like, that sounds about right. Like that doesn't seem too deranged at all.
1:28:11 Bill Simmons? Yeah. But yeah, that's, that's a good one. And then there was this email from David Harmon because I've been talking a lot about home field advantage and home court advantage and what's happened. And he reminded me that Wertham and Moskowitz did that book Scorecasting when we were at Brooklyn. Really good. And the first chapter is about home field advantage. They crunched the data, the writers concluded the single biggest factor was referee bias. They dismissed travel, crowd noise, everything else and concluded subconsciously, the refs don't want to piss off the home crowd. And then he says, in the last 15 years, we have technology replays. We have these referee grading systems are different. Pretty good explanation, right?
1:28:54 Speaker 02 I gotta tell you, it's a good explanation. I think the referees are tougher and better trained. Tougher in terms of like, I don't think they care about the crowd. I will say, I'm getting, it's, it's old man yells at cloud of me. I'm getting pretty close to the, how about we just review nothing solution to basketball? Just like, how about there's no reviews? Because I just, these games just take forever and the reviews sap all the.
1:29:17 Bill Simmons? How about soccer's fast? Soccer, they're banging these out. And it's like, how is this 100 times easier than basketball?
1:29:24 Speaker 02 Soccer.
1:29:26 Speaker 02 Are they stopping the clock for the hydration break in the World Cup? Okay, so they're at least stopping the clock for that.
1:29:32 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:29:33 Speaker 02 Because I would love to introduce soccer to the stop and to stopwatch. It's a great, great advantage. Seven, seven minutes. Just gonna do seven. Everyone good with that?
1:29:43 Bill Simmons? That would have been funny if they did that for game five of the finals. The Spurs now have two extra minutes.
1:29:49 Speaker 02 Four. Okay, I guess it's four. Just four on the dot.
1:29:54 Bill Simmons? Caleb wants to know Jimmy Butler demanded a trade from Minnesota because he hated playing with Towns and Wiggins. And now Wiggins and Towns are now champions and Butler is not and likely won't ever be one. Is he gonna snap this summer?
1:30:09 Speaker 02 I thought it was gonna, the question was gonna go the other way and say, who was, who has been most wrong exiting a team?
1:30:17 Speaker 02 About the internal makeup of the team they exited.
1:30:23 Bill Simmons? Pretty, pretty crazy, though.
1:30:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, and then just like, Cat and Wiggins got it done.
1:30:28 Bill Simmons? Couple more really quick. OG, Lawrence from Toronto asked if OG is the GOAT player with no All-Star selections. Right now, probably Andre, Andre Miller was in the lead before that finals.
1:30:39 Speaker 02 So I, I, I did the research. You want to hear the, I did a deep dive. Basketball Reference, I, I looked at OG's stats and only regular season stats because that's the only way he can do it. And I went, uh, over 7,000 career points. He's right around 7,200. P R above 13, win shares above 35, value over a placement player above 10 because he's, that's where he is. No All-Star appearances.
1:31:05 Speaker 02 The most points scored, the answer is no. I just, despite the fact that you can, you know, you have to account for what just happened in the playoffs. Like 21 a game on insane shooting, the iconic tip in. I mean, Eddie Johnson has 19,000 career points and never made an All-Star team.
1:31:21 Bill Simmons? My, our friend Eddie Johnson from
1:31:23 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:31:24 Bill Simmons? Johnson and Terminy?
1:31:25 Speaker 02 I was surprised too. He's on this list.
1:31:27 Bill Simmons? No All-Stars.
1:31:28 Speaker 02 No All-Stars, is not an All-Star is part of my search.
1:31:31 Bill Simmons? Well, he deserves it. He's a Jokic hater. Eddie Johnson, that's what you get for hating Jokic.
1:31:35 Speaker 02 Andre Miller's up there. CJ McCollum, just in the news today, like, three games into this playoffs would have been the answer to this question. And I just think there are too many. Sam Perkins is on here. Robert Horry is on here. That's an interesting one.
1:31:49 Bill Simmons? Oh, Robert Horry is a good one.
1:31:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, a lot, I'm gonna see who else I wrote down, because I
1:31:55 Bill Simmons? Sam Perkins is a nice one, too.
1:31:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, no, there's a lot of, um.
1:31:58 Bill Simmons? There was Michael Cooper, Marcus Camby, Jason Terry.
1:32:02 Speaker 02 Lamar Odom is on here. There's some good ones. Toni Kukoc.
1:32:07 Bill Simmons? So what do you think the answer is?
1:32:09 Speaker 02 I think the answer is I can't, right now, no, just because, like, the career stats are, and he's
1:32:15 Bill Simmons? He needs another, like, seven, eight years.
1:32:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, but, but, because those guys are pretty, like, Jamal Crawford has 19,000 some points. Those are pretty accomplished dudes. Grant Hill is, or I'm sorry, George, I saw George Hill, it's George Hill, forget it, no Grant Hill.
1:32:28 Bill Simmons? Your guy, George Hill.
1:32:30 Speaker 02 I just think there are too many, like, Aaron Gordon is a good one for this. Another, like, you know, championship, second, third, third wheel.
1:32:38 Bill Simmons? That's a really good one. And, and put us some stats. So I mentioned Mark.
1:32:43 Speaker 02 Mikail Bridges, by the way, is on this list, too.
1:32:46 Bill Simmons? Consecutive game streak. He's kind of messed around with. Mark, I messed up this email. He said, he watched Without Limits, couldn't help but wonder if the Knicks figured out the Bill Bowerman success equation. And it basically how he told Steve Prontin, stop front-running because he'd lose. You're burning out your gas in the beginning, Spurs style. I screwed this up when I did the pod and I talked about how he would roar from behind. Bowerman was the one that was like, you're expending too much energy, stay behind, come up in the end. And was that basically what the Knicks were doing with the Bill Bowerman strategy of they would let the Spurs punch themselves out, basically? And then come in late. So I want to apologize to him. Okay, this is the last one, Zach. Jeff M.
1:33:32 Bill Simmons? He said, "In honor of From Hell Month on the Rewatchables, two coming this week. I wanted to present the case on the Pacers having one of the worst From Hell years in sports history. We lose the final after our beloved star tears his Achilles in game seven after hitting three threes. The same star gets shingles, derailing his recovery. Our tank season is rewarded by losing our lottery pick in a 50-50 coin flip. Our arch nemesis wins the championship without having to play us and simultaneously kills the Halliburton shot in Reggie Miller. It's been one gut punch after another. I fully suspect Halliburton to get attacked with African Asbs this summer. Been riding with you for almost 20 years, by far my longest relationship." That's Jeff M.
1:34:15 Bill Simmons? And then Samir chimed in, "I've had enough of everyone applauding the 26 Knicks without mentioning that everyone through the team that knocked them out the last two years. I can't remember another NBA team who just got to avoid beating their bugaboo team to win it all. Just a brutal way to wrap up the most devastating Pacers year." So I got a lot of Pacer emails like this. And when you talked about winners and losers, and I think the Nets were the biggest loser of that finals. I think the Pacers were like second. The Pacers a year ago were riding high with their fans. And a year later, on top of everything else that happened, then they had to watch the Knicks win the title. It's brutal.
1:34:50 Speaker 02 You know, it's funny that it didn't pop into my head that way. Funny because the Halliburton shot has been so in my mind because of what happened in game one of the conference finals this year, where the Knicks pulled a reverse comeback and have the shot that hits the rim and bounces in. So it's not like that team's been forgotten. But yeah, you're right. The Pacers eliminated the Knicks two years in a row. The first one, the Knicks just like ran out of players. I think they were the better team in that series, probably. And just like everybody got hurt, including Brunson. In the last game, Ananobi could barely move, if you remember that. But yeah, I mean, look, the Pacers, this is why they're one of my more interesting teams coming into the next season. A, like half their team is extensional, and B, they just made the Zubac trade that became a little bit more painful for them than maybe they anticipated. But they're loaded for bear next year.
1:35:35 Speaker 02 Like, why not them as your East favorite? Why not?
1:35:39 Bill Simmons? The biggest question would be Halliburton, what's he gonna look like next year?
1:35:42 Speaker 02 Agreed.
1:35:43 Bill Simmons? But Zubats will be better for them. They basically have everybody else back in some form. Same coach, all that stuff. And I got an email from Mark G. A couple of people asked this too. The Halliburton actually getting hurt in game seven. Is that officially move into like one of the higher levels of great what ifs in the history of the league? I, no question.
1:36:04 Speaker 02 It's also like.
1:36:05 Bill Simmons? If they win that game, does all the Brunson stuff happen with Halliburton last year? To some degree, probably, I mean, his stats weren't as good. He was 18, nine and six in the finals. Brunson. Thirty-three in the final, like, there was something different to what Brunson was doing, but Halliburton was in the vicinity.
1:36:21 Speaker 02 What if Oklahoma City has, still has not won a title? Like, what, I mean, again, if we're doing what ifs, like, they lose that finals and then this year happens exactly as it happened and they're still like, like, what is this offseason like for them if they haven't won a title? It's also like, the, one of the most, I mean, there's been, obviously, like gruesome injuries happen more than you would like. There was just one in a soccer game the other day for Canada, right? Like, those are horrible. But in terms of just like, taking away the drama and of a big moment like that. I, I can't remember anything quite on that level, to the point that when Brunson went down in game one of these finals.
1:37:01 Speaker 02 I had like PTSD from that, like you do not, like, we've just spent a week hyping up this finals. Everyone is beyond amped up. Please do not let this be a thing. That just erodes the finals and like that. I can't remember ever feeling like that during a game. Like, that was game seven. Forget that he starts hot and all that. It's like, this magical run by a team that pretty much no one saw getting that far in the playoffs and they might actually.
1:37:24 Bill Simmons? That had never won the title.
1:37:25 Speaker 02 Never won the title. Obviously, ABA, they won titles, but.
1:37:29 Bill Simmons? Fifty plus years ago.
1:37:30 Speaker 02 But like, I just, and then the whole game was weird after. Even the Pacers being, weren't the Pacers ahead at halftime by like, or was it was like a one point game at halftime? It's just, it felt like you were a zombie the rest of the night.
1:37:41 Bill Simmons? SGA talked about it during the playoffs, actually, saying he wanted to win again because it was so weird the way they won the title the first time. He almost wanted a normal. Version of the same experience. That Halliburton thing was like a black cloud over that whole night. All right. Zach Lowe doing a podcast tomorrow?
1:37:58 Speaker 02 I think so. We we're all kind of on Giannis, waiting on Giannis.
1:38:02 Bill Simmons? Yeah, we're in call. We're like doctors. We're on call with Giannis.
1:38:05 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then, yeah.
1:38:06 Bill Simmons? At the mercy of Giannis.
1:38:07 Speaker 02 I have a busy sports fan week coming up, and so we're gonna have to find ways to to pod around that. And during the NBA draft, I will be in, weather permitting, in whatever stadium they're playing in Toronto, watching Croatia play Panama. And I can't, I really, it's my first international soccer game, first big international soccer game ever. I really wanted to just like, I want the, I want to sing the songs. I want to drink. I don't want to be sober. Now I gotta be sober because the draft is going to be happening. Who knows? I might podcast that night after the game. I'm robbed of like, full hooliganism. I'm robbed of it.
1:38:40 Bill Simmons? I think you just, just pod the next day. Just have the whole experience.
1:38:44 Speaker 02 I'll be there with my, my Croatian brothers and sisters. We've got, we've got to win this one. Got to win. Got to get a W.
1:38:49 Bill Simmons? All right. Good luck. Thanks for popping on. Going to bring in Joe House right now to recap the US Open. Bye, Zach.
1:38:57 Speaker 02 Bye. Have fun.
1:38:58 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.
1:39:45 Bill Simmons? Is House coming on? I see a black, a black screen. I still see a black screen.
1:39:50 Speaker 02 Can you hear me?
1:39:51 Bill Simmons? There he is. Hey, House. Yeah, we did it.
1:39:53 Speaker 02 Hey, we hit Zach Lowe.
1:39:55 Bill Simmons? Bye, Zach.
1:39:56 Speaker 02 Bye, boys.
1:39:57 Bill Simmons? I saved one last mailbag question for you before you tell us what happened in the US Open.
1:40:01 Speaker 02 Let's go.
1:40:02 Bill Simmons? Because we did a bunch of Pacer ones, but I had to save this specifically for you. Connor from Indianapolis, did the last two years of the Indiana Pacers mirror the plot in Boogie Nights?
1:40:14 Bill Simmons? Up until game seven of 2025 finals, being a Pacers fan was like being a 1970s Dirk Diggler fan. Things were looking great. Then the ball dropped and it's 1980. Halliburton gets taken out like Little Bill's wife. The team tanks and loses their pick like Amber Waves loses custody of her kid. All while seeing their rival, the Knicks, replace them like Johnny Doe. Watching the Pacers on League Pass was as bad as Dirk's music career. Can you give us more sports parallels to the cast of Boogie Nights with the Pacers? Keeps going. So that would be Kevin Pritchard, the GM, as Jack Horner. Halliburton is Dirk. Pascal Siakam is Amber Waves. It's my dojo!
1:40:54 Speaker 05 We got to do somebody. Kevin Pritchard is worse than Jack. Kevin Pritchard might be the Colonel.
1:41:01 Bill Simmons? For the number five pick?
1:41:02 Speaker 05 Yeah. He should be in jail for what he did with that trick.
1:41:07 Bill Simmons? Number five pick? Nemhard is Reid Rothschild.
1:41:09 Speaker 05 That's pretty good.
1:41:11 Bill Simmons? Aaron Neesmith as Roller Girl.
1:41:14 Speaker 05 Sure.
1:41:15 Bill Simmons? You never know when he's just gonna pop in and change a game. TJ McConnell is Becky Barnett. OG Toppin is Buck.
1:41:24 Speaker 05 That's pretty good.
1:41:25 Bill Simmons? Kind of never know where he fits in, but he's always ambitious. Myles Turner, definitely Little Bill. Just out. Matherin is Todd Parker. Todd! And then Brunson's Johnny Doe. And I think that's it.
1:41:38 Speaker 05 You went through the whole thing. It was amazing.
1:41:40 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I did Boogie Nights and Pacers for you. Okay.
1:41:42 Speaker 05 Great job.
1:41:43 Bill Simmons? So we started this live podcast during the last few holes of the US Open. I assumed Wyndham Clark was gonna take care of business. You're gonna be talking about it with Nathan later tonight on Fairway Rollin', but he made it a little hairy. He won by a stroke? What happened?
1:41:56 Speaker 05 Yes. He bogeyed the 17th hole, which is a par three. He was on the green and, you know, he left himself. This was part of his true secret sauce this entire golf tournament. He made so many pars from, you know, 10 feet, from 6 feet, from 30. 14 feet. He saved par like crazy and then it came all the way down to the very end. And the 17th hole, he had a reasonable five or six footer. And he missed it. He gacked it, but he he validated because he came out on the 18th hole. He his approach was short. He was 52 feet from the hole.
1:42:37 Speaker 05 On his the putt that he had on the 18th hole, he needed to to get down in two to win the golf tournament and he putted to like two inches. I mean, it was an awesome putt that he made on 18.
1:42:47 Bill Simmons? So you're room for the playoff and you also don't, you're not a big Wyndham Clark guy.
1:42:51 Speaker 05 Well, I I don't, I don't think I'm alone in that.
1:42:55 Bill Simmons? Yeah, can we dive into this?
1:42:57 Speaker 05 Sure.
1:42:57 Bill Simmons? Yeah, so he wins wire to wire and he's American and it's the US Open. And yet you could feel it in the crowd all weekend. Tepid applause for the good shots and then if something bad happened, you could hear a couple of people doing like cheering over there. It was just what? It seems like all of these little tiny things that he did, but nothing major, but they all added up and people have just decided, I don't like this guy.
1:43:23 Speaker 05 Well, there was there was a back to back, speaking of major, a bit of misbehavior last year. 2025 at the PGA Championship, he threw his driver, snapped it, and it came close to hitting somebody behind him. He was angry with the shot with his driver, snapped it, threw it and and almost hit somebody.
1:43:43 Bill Simmons? Well, maybe that person shouldn't have been there.
1:43:46 Speaker 05 That person was just standing behind the tee. I mean, that person was not in harm's way, should not have been in harm's way. And then he he the the real cherry on top of the the the most infamous misbehavior was at Oakmont where the US Open was conducted last year. Outside of Pittsburgh, one of America's all time great courses, a great US Open venue with all of this history. Like when you walk into the clubhouse, the history, it's it's the same, you know, floors that people have been walking on. And when you go up to the locker room, they still have the wooden benches that have spike marks that that are there that have been there for 80 years or so. And homie played.
1:44:25 Speaker 05 Terrible on I think Friday and went up in there with some kind of of weapon and smashed in one of these lockers that have been there for you know decades um and kind of rolled out without going or you know doing the appropriate
1:44:41 Bill Simmons? Doing my bad?
1:44:41 Speaker 05 Apologizing yeah no my bad and so um you know he's been living with that since and and it really made him unpopular and there was not a giant act of of remorse and contrition to follow quickly enough I think for at least sort of golf sickos to to where it was clear like he he's he has owned it since then and he did you know pay for restitution he did make a charitable contribution.
1:45:09 Bill Simmons? So he basically became Patrick Reed from this.
1:45:12 Speaker 05 A little bit yes and and you know in some respects we've been missing speaking of Patrick Reed a villain i- in golf.
1:45:19 Bill Simmons? I was gonna say all this sounds great I like we always talk about how fucking boring golfers are then we have a guy destroy a locker at Oakmont everybody's like put him in fucking jail.
1:45:28 Speaker 05 You're right.
1:45:29 Bill Simmons? Put him in a stray jacket.
1:45:30 Speaker 05 Definitely.
1:45:31 Bill Simmons? People get so mad what pick a side do we want charismatic fucking crazy golfers or just boring guys what do we want?
1:45:38 Speaker 05 Well he he he got his act together and today was especially uh compelling because the entire crowd was rooting for Scottie Scheffler who he was playing with he was the crowd was rooting for Scottie Scheffler because it was Scottie's chance to to win the Grand Slam his first chance to complete the Grand Slam.
1:45:55 Bill Simmons? He didn't have it I watched the first 15 holes before we went live on Netflix and he just he couldn't get it going.
1:46:00 Speaker 05 He just couldn't make a putt I mean.
1:46:02 Bill Simmons? He's gonna get over it.
1:46:03 Speaker 05 He was getting you know his his especially on the back his approach play was very good he was putting himself in position to make birdies he just couldn't get any of those putts to drop and Clark hung on he got out to far enough lead on Thursday he just hung on for dear life I mean after Thursday he shot two over par over his remaining three rounds.
1:46:22 Bill Simmons? But not the right two over for you because you had you were shorting him yesterday.
1:46:26 Speaker 05 I sure did short him yesterday.
1:46:28 Bill Simmons? With some wagers.
1:46:29 Speaker 05 That's true. I had him over seventy-one and a half strokes yesterday.
1:46:33 Bill Simmons? He did that today. Did you have that today?
1:46:35 Speaker 05 I didn't touch it today. I left alone there, all the betting with him.
1:46:39 Bill Simmons? It was a classic. He's up six. Whoa, now he's up three.
1:46:43 Speaker 05 Yes.
1:46:43 Bill Simmons? Like within like a half hour of when the tournament started.
1:46:47 Speaker 05 There was regression built into the performance, especially yesterday. I mean, he really pulled the Saturday round even par out of his butt. I mean, it was a miracle that he saved par from several places and he had really the whole of the tournament was the eagle that he made on sixteen on Saturday in front of no fans whatsoever because yesterday, Saturday, they started the final groups off at three forty-five, three, you know, three thirty in the afternoon because they wanted for television purposes for it to be some prime time and for that golf course, you know, out there in the Hamptons to get some of that late afternoon glow. Everybody got the fuck out of there. Everybody's like, I'm not sticking around to watch this. There's trains that take two hours to get to New York.
1:47:32 Speaker 05 So the golf course is basically empty, but the shot of the tournament was his approach on the sixteenth hole. He made eagle. The only guy, the entire golf tournament to make eagle on sixteen and that to me was really the thing that.
1:47:45 Bill Simmons? Well, he won by a stroke, so that ended up winning him the tournament.
1:47:48 Speaker 05 Yeah.
1:47:49 Bill Simmons? And then Sam Burns was was great today. I got to see his whole round.
1:47:54 Speaker 05 Hard charge. He did it.
1:47:55 Bill Simmons? Forty-nine footer at one point and did the whole thing, but it was just.
1:47:59 Speaker 05 He had putts on seventeen and eighteen. If either one of those fall, now he didn't really make a great stroke on seventeen, but on eighteen, that ball was half a rotation from going into the hole and then we would have had to play off and then that would have been something.
1:48:14 Bill Simmons? Would that have been eighteen hole playoff or just a sudden?
1:48:16 Speaker 05 No, so they changed that rule. It's now a like two hole aggregate and I think they play the same hole on repeat.
1:48:24 Bill Simmons? That's right. I forgot. They did that a little while. Yeah, I remember that.
1:48:30 Bill Simmons? All right. So what's your grade for the tournament overall? It sounds like it was like all the golf threads we're on and all the people we know. Everybody like really seemed like they enjoyed rooting against Wyndham Clark. Which is like a fun, it's a fun wrinkle for a golf tournament. It was like, we don't really have the American villain ever.
1:48:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, we, we didn't get kind of the, the carnage that this golf course can deliver. Because there, there was anticipated wind in the forecast Thursday and Friday, and it never really materialized. Wyndham Clark was supposed to be on the wrong side of the weather forecast on Thursday. His 64 was what won him the golf tournament. 64 Thursday afternoon, when the winds were supposed to be at their worst. So that, that piece of it, and the, there was some complaints, you know, the, the USGA was very careful to not have the golf course get away from them to where the balls were, were going to be because of the wind, you know, just rolling off willy nilly. So they watered the golf course and there was some complaints that it was a little bit too easy earlier on.
1:49:31 Speaker 05 But, you know, I, I give it the whole thing overall, I guess a solid B. I mean, wire to wire is pretty impressive out of Wyndham. He went out and did, did the damn thing and we got one hard charge out of Sam Burns on Sunday, which is, I guess, all, all you could ask for.
1:49:45 Bill Simmons? We needed somebody to do it.
1:49:46 Speaker 05 Yeah. Six stroke lead going into Sunday. You know, le- leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the drama, but we got some drama.
1:49:55 Bill Simmons? I'm asking Claude right now, how many two-time US champions in golf have there been? What's the answer?
1:50:02 Speaker 05 I think six, seven?
1:50:04 Bill Simmons? He won this a couple of years ago in 23.
1:50:07 Speaker 05 Yes.
1:50:08 Bill Simmons? And then he wins this one.
1:50:09 Speaker 05 It's more than, than six or seven.
1:50:12 Bill Simmons? Bud's still thinking.
1:50:13 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's more this, because Tiger and Jack, Tiger and Jack both have multiple.
1:50:18 Bill Simmons? 24 men.
1:50:19 Speaker 05 Yeah, okay.
1:50:20 Bill Simmons? Have done it.
1:50:21 Speaker 05 I was thinking about, there was a stat about how quickly guys have won, you know, after you win one, how quickly do, do you win your second? And he's in, in the top handful of guys. He did it, you know, in, in pretty short order.
1:50:35 Bill Simmons? Where is he in the, uh, the pecking order for American golfers now? Sheffers won.
1:50:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, he immediately puts he changed his his putter at the Masters this year. And he was like putting 135th on tour going into that tournament. Now he's number one on tour and it was his putter that saved his ass all week long. And now it seems like the sky is the limit with the confidence that he has putting wise because you know this this Shinnecock is an enormous putting challenge and you know, he was all around though. Very good off the tee, he was in the top 15 in his short game. He was top 15 and his putting he was top five. That's how you win a US Open, but he's pushing himself up.
1:51:20 Bill Simmons? Fucking drives too. Jesus Christ.
1:51:22 Speaker 05 Well, because they they had the benefit of a very firm golf course. So a lot, you know, Bryson had a 401 yard drive on the 18th hole before he missed the cut on Friday. But the yeah.
1:51:35 Bill Simmons? By the way, that was your best pick of the week.
1:51:37 Speaker 05 Thank you. Yes, I did.
1:51:38 Bill Simmons? You shorted Bryson, you said he wasn't going to make the cut.
1:51:41 Speaker 05 I did say that.
1:51:42 Bill Simmons? Like four to one, three to one, something like that?
1:51:44 Speaker 05 Odds went way down. It started off near two to one for the week. And then as it got to be Wednesday, going into Thursday, America woke up and jumped on it. I would like to say very humbly on fairway rolling two weeks ago, I said, I am betting to win at the US Open Wyndham Clark and Sam Burns. I had two picks that were from weeks ago that I said, I just want to have some money down. At the time, Sam Burns was 40 to one and at the time Wyndham Clark was 35 to one. So you could just see those both of those guys coming in in in very good form.
1:52:17 Bill Simmons? You should text me that info as you're asking to borrow money to pay for your Saturday Wyndham Clark bets.
1:52:22 Speaker 05 Well, you could you could also listen to the show. You could listen to the show that I mean, that would be another thing.
1:52:27 Bill Simmons? I'm just trying to, you know, because you did get killed on Saturday.
1:52:30 Speaker 05 I got killed by.
1:52:31 Bill Simmons? Wyndham was going to hit like a 75.
1:52:34 Speaker 05 I thought he was going to shoot 73.
1:52:35 Bill Simmons? Listen, there's so much to bet on right now. It's I mean, this World Cup, I'm just waiting into these. I'm not even asking to bundle anymore. I'm just like, ah. Belgium, alright.
1:52:46 Speaker 05 I walked right into it. Hench put Turkey into a parlay for us, even after I swore off Turkey. I told everybody, never betting on Turkey again.
1:52:55 Bill Simmons? All they did was, was take shots on the net that didn't go in for two hours.
1:52:59 Speaker 05 Filthy Turkey, sons of bitches. And I did it again.
1:53:02 Bill Simmons? Unbelievable. I had a three-team parlay on Friday and that was the last piece. It was like four to one. And then all they did was just shoot the ball over the net and head the ball to the side.
1:53:11 Speaker 05 We, we said, don't bet on Turkey anymore. And then we did it because we're more.
1:53:14 Bill Simmons? Unbelievable. Paraguay, park the bus.
1:53:17 Speaker 05 What team is Yanis on? I miss you and I want to.
1:53:20 Bill Simmons? But we don't know. He's going to wait until the most inappropriate time possible to, the trade's going to be announced.
1:53:26 Speaker 05 The draft?
1:53:27 Bill Simmons? Yeah, like one minute before the draft. Um, I've loved the World Cup though. Have you, are you, did you get patriotic on Friday?
1:53:35 Speaker 05 Oh, I mean, you know, it's must see TV at this point now. This is because of how dominant US was against Paraguay. And, and like eye-opening reaction to the soccer, by the soccer community.
1:53:48 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:53:48 Speaker 05 Taking US seriously. Like, well, if, if the soccer community is invested in this team and thinks that they're capable of great things, then I want to see it. I want to see what they're capable of. And I thought that performance against Australia, that was a trap game. But they didn't get trapped. They let themselves, you know, go out and feel it. I love, my, my guy is McKinney. I love that guy McKinney. I feel like he's the, the straw that stirs the drink.
1:54:11 Bill Simmons? I love, I honestly, they had the most likable group of dudes they've had. I love Jedi.
1:54:17 Speaker 05 Hmm.
1:54:17 Bill Simmons? The Freeman? How about that? Antonio Freeman's son.
1:54:22 Speaker 05 Amazing.
1:54:23 Bill Simmons? Unbelievable.
1:54:23 Speaker 05 This is what we've been begging for.
1:54:25 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:54:25 Speaker 05 Right?
1:54:26 Bill Simmons? These are, these guys are badasses. They.
1:54:29 Speaker 05 Let's get our athletes.
1:54:30 Bill Simmons? I didn't feel like we flopped that much. I just really, uh, Balogun's been great.
1:54:34 Speaker 05 And we'll get Pulisic healthy. That's the key.
1:54:37 Bill Simmons? What's happening with your team on Tuesday night?
1:54:39 Speaker 05 They're gonna.
1:54:39 Bill Simmons? We still think you're taking AJ.
1:54:40 Speaker 05 I sure do. Yes, I do think that.
1:54:42 Bill Simmons? Cause they're trying, this always happens around the draft where it's like, sources say the Wizards taking a longer look at Darren Peterson. It's like, they're taking AJ.
1:54:52 Speaker 05 My phone has sources say, uh, they're taking a long look at Peterson. And that's just people said, telling that, saying that to me, but I, I'm not, I'm not permitting it. I'm not, I'm not acknowledging it.
1:55:03 Bill Simmons? AJ won. I heard Utah maybe had a secret workout of Peterson this weekend.
1:55:09 Speaker 05 Okay.
1:55:10 Bill Simmons? I don't know what happens at two, though. I still think they're taking Boozer, but if, you know, one workout and obviously they have to do all the diligence on Peterson. What would you do if you were you thought?
1:55:21 Speaker 05 Take Boozer.
1:55:23 Bill Simmons? I would take Boozer, too.
1:55:24 Speaker 05 I think he raises their floor and for that team, what they've assembled, you want somebody that's not a question mark in any way, shape or form that can immediately come in and help the overall, you know, help the tide rise up, you know, and be on the same timeline.
1:55:41 Bill Simmons? I like having crazy frontcourt depth and figuring it out because I think it's easier to get guards than forwards. You don't have another pick, though, right?
1:55:50 Speaker 05 Uh, no, I think that's it.
1:55:51 Bill Simmons? You don't have one in the first half. All right. And you'll try to trade Anthony Davis at some point. All right. You have to go do fairway rolling.
1:55:57 Speaker 05 Let's go.
1:55:58 Bill Simmons? I'm gonna see you on Tuesday night, live right after the draft. Me, you, Jay Kyle, man, right afterwards. I cannot wait. We'll do winners and losers, all kinds of stuff. Maybe, we don't need drunk house, but maybe like a couple of drinks house. Yeah.
1:56:13 Speaker 05 I have to toast AJ. I have to welcome AJ to the city with an appropriate toast.
1:56:17 Bill Simmons? Probably maybe sing a little Washington song. Thanks to Zach Lowe. Thanks to Joe House. I'll see you on Tuesday night. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo as well. Thanks to everybody who watched on Netflix. I'm gonna see you again on Tuesday night. Thanks, House.
1:56:32 Speaker 05 My pleasure.
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1:57:15 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6th.
1:57:59 Bill Simmons? Get tickets now.
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Previous NBA Draft Questions, Harper vs. Fox, and the USMNT’s World Cup Ceiling Next Giannis to Miami! An Urgent Gathering Pod With Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated