Make-or-Break NFL QBs, a CFB Preview, and the WNBA Renaissance With Todd McShay and Diana Taurasi

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Todd McShay to discuss the NFL's make-or-break QBs before previewing college football. Then, Diana Taurasi joins the pod to talk about the renaissance of the WNBA, her friendship with Kobe, and much more! (0:00) Intro (3:04) NFL and CFB previews with Todd McShay (57:26) Diana Taurasi on the WNBA, Kobe, and much more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Todd McShay and Diana Taurasi Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at https://paypal.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PayPal. The holiday rush is coming and you can get ahead of it with PayPal. Shop your favorite online stores with PayPal this season like eBay for collectibles, Fanatics for teen gear, Walmart for tech. Check out the flexibility to pay now or pay later and split your payments with Pay in four with no interest, no late fees. Shop now with PayPal. Paying for subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash paying for PayPal, Inc., NMLS 910457.

• 0:39Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new episode of the Rewatchables yesterday. We did Aliens. It finally happened after nine years. One of the most requested movies that we've ever had for the Rewatchables Podcast finally happened. Aliens, one of the 10 greatest sequels of all time. So go check that one out. I did a bunch of podcasts last week, including a two over under podcast with Cousin Sal. We did AFC, did NFC. If you missed any of that, please go check it out. Got to mention the AFC podcast. I, I talked about how I got my daughter's boyfriend to, to play some, some bets for me in Massachusetts because I was in LA. Did not know about the proxy rules.

• 1:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's some, there's some real rules with this stuff. And, and they've ruled that they, not only are the bets going to be voided. And I learned my lesson. Apparently proxy betting not allowed. I actually thought it was, but that's fine. And now my daughter has to break up with her boyfriend. That was the other thing they were, no, I'm kidding. They're going to stay together, but, but yeah, I did learn not allowed to do that. So all those bets went out the window. All that special time I had with Hank out the window as well. The good news is I'm going to be in Boston and maybe at some point I'll, I'll make some more wagers down the road. So there you go. Lesson learned. Coming up on this podcast, we're going to talk football and college football with Todd McShay because we need to have him on before the NFL season.

• 2:06Bill Simmons?

  And then Diana Taurasi, who was on the last Grantland basketball ever, who was on my podcast the first year, I think, when she was playing in Russia. Yeah. First or second year, I can't remember. She's back. We're going to talk WNBA. We're going to try to have a really fun women's basketball conversation where we don't hit all the stupid content guardrails that everybody hits and just talk about basketball. It's going to be fun. We're going to have a break, Pearl Jam, and then Todd McShay. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. The NFL is here and it's the most rewarding season ever on FanDuel with the all time FanDuel Rewards Club. Every eligible bet can earn you points.

• 2:49Bill Simmons?

  Win or lose, you still get points. The more points, the bigger the rewards you can unlock. Head to FanDuel.com slash BS to start earning with FanDuel Rewards Club. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut.

• 3:38Bill Simmons?

  All right, recording this early Tuesday afternoon Eastern time. Todd McShay is here. College football season really kicking off this weekend. NFL starting next week. You want to start NFL first or college first? Your pick.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Let's go NFL first.

• 3:51Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I've made, I always feel like there's eight teams that can basically be realistic Super Bowl contenders. And even though Sal and I did the AFC and NFC over unders last week, I still didn't have my eight. And I think I have six and I wanted to bounce off the other spots for you.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I always have a pen and a piece of paper. I always.

• 4:12Bill Simmons?

  I always keep you on your toes.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:15Bill Simmons?

  All right. So here's who I have. Rams and Seahawks have to be in there. So that's easy. We got two.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:22Bill Simmons?

  I think from AFC, the two teams I feel the best about are the Texans and the Ravens. Texans because they have the best defense in the league. Ravens because of the schedule. I like Jesse Minter. Made all these cases last week. So I have those four.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:36Bill Simmons?

  I have the Broncos, who I think people are sleeping on a little bit from a talent on the roster standpoint. I think people are looking at them as making too big of a step back. I just like them more than the Chiefs. That's five. Eagles because of the amount of talent they have. That's six. So I have two spots left. One is for the Bills or the Patriots. And I'm biased. You might be less biased than me, but give me your Bills or Patriots.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  You can't have both?

• 5:10Bill Simmons?

  No, no, I've decided I can't have both. I think this is a zero sum game between those two.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Gun to head this year, I would go Buffalo.

• 5:20Bill Simmons?

  All right, make the case.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  I always worry with a, with a quarterback, a young quarterback coming off of the first successful season. What does it look like the next year after coordinators in the league have had a full offseason to prepare, right? Now, obviously you look at that wide receiver room compared to a year ago for, for Drake May, and it's like, it's not even close, right? And so that, that gives you a lot of hope and promise if you're a Patriots fan. I just think Josh Allen has the right coach, the right relationship. He feels ownership of this. I get the, the roster's not as good. Patriots roster, top to bottom is better.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  I just, I can't bet against Josh Allen this year.

• 6:13Bill Simmons?

  Well, history says that's a good guy to bet on because he just wins 11 games every year. I don't see the talent in the defense at all. So this to me would have to be a one man show kind of season for him.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  And I think he's enough of a one man, but, but like it won't shock me. There's one team that you're leaving off that you and I've texted about a little bit that I, I think is going to surprise some teams and I don't care how little rest they get.

• 6:40Bill Simmons?

  That might be my eighth spot.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Okay, go ahead.

• 6:44Bill Simmons?

  One last thing on the Pats though.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:46Bill Simmons?

  Because obviously people are, you're running into people all summer and you live in New England and people are going to ask you this stuff. What's your answer when people say, what happened to Drake in the playoffs last year?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  He wasn't healthy and his left tackle wasn't healthy.

• 7:01Bill Simmons?

  That's my answer too. It's almost like we colluded on answers.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't talked to you about that. I, but there, there's no question in my mind that both guys were injured and when, and you could see the difference. And yet like the competition elevates. It's the first time in the playoffs. I get all those things and I'm sure that they played a factor, but you're telling me that that was the Drake May that we saw all season? And then he just kind of, he was limited in what he was able to do and the offense very clearly was, I mean, they, they kind of, they strangled it, you know? Like they, they clearly were, were, were functioning with a quarterback that they knew had some more limitations than they were dealing with all season long.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  And then, and then, I mean, listen, it was a disaster in the Super Bowl, but when your rookie left tackle is not healthy, it's not going to end well. And Will Campbell was not healthy. I don't care what injury report said. I don't, I mean, mention I had, I mean, we, we talked to the general manager and, and Wolf was like, like there's no, like, he basically was like, he'll, he'll be healthy next year. Like it was, it was more than a wink. You know what I mean? Like he's our starting left tackle and, and we have no doubt about that. And we have all the confidence in the world. That was not the guy that played left tackle all season. And he didn't just forget how to, how to play football or, and Seattle's defense is awesome, but that wasn't the product that, that we know he's going to be moving forward.

• 8:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, he had a torn MCL. He said that after the season. Torn MCL is an injury that has sidelined a bunch of people. So he definitely wasn't healthy. With Drake, I don't know if there was an injury he was hiding or if he was like really, really banged up. And then there was an accumulation of hits, but he was not the same guy in those last couple of games. And, you know, if this was a quarterback that wasn't on the Patriots, I would have been like, oh, regular season Drake, but we'll see. My last spot Bucks, Cowboys, Lions or Bears?

• 9:01Bill Simmons?

  Were those one of the four? Was that one of the teams you thought I was gonna say to you? What was that team we were texting about? Chargers?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yep, Chargers.

• 9:08Bill Simmons?

  Okay, so let's throw the Chargers in there.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Dallas and the Chargers are the two teams that I think are gonna have big years this year. I think this is the best team that Dak has had. I think he's, I've never thought he's one of the elite quarterbacks in the league.

• 9:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Maybe you and I had this conversation. For the longest time, I was, I was a push, pushback against Dak guy. And in the last.

• 9:33Bill Simmons?

  Was there a club? Did you have T-shirts or was that just?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  No, but I felt like I was, I was, I was on the board.

• 9:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  But, but I was on the board of that club, you know?

• 9:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Um, but, but I think he's figured out who he is. I know, like, he knows how to distribute, his leadership, the physicality. Like, I just, I think he's, I think he's primed to have maybe the best year of his entire career. They've got the, the weapons at wide receiver. Their defense looks not, in the last, I don't know, 12, let's call it nine months now, approximately nine, 10 months now, the, the turnover from that defense, systematically, and you would think losing Micah Parsons, but they've parlayed that into what I think is it, and, and I love the former Spider, new, new defensive coordinator. I just, I think that defense is going to be, let's say it's middle of the pack compared to what last year.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Like 15, um, it, it's a totally different situation for Dallas. And I can't say, I, I lived the ESPN life for 19 years, Bill. Like, nothing makes my stomach turn more than a, a Tuesday when the Cowboys have no business being in the news cycle and it's the A-block of a show.

• 10:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  But this year, I think they actually deserve some of this attention that they're inevitably gonna get. So I think the Chargers and the Cowboys are the two teams that are being, you can't say Cowboys are being overlooked, but I don't know they're being taken seriously as they should be from a national perspective.

• 11:03Bill Simmons?

  I think that's fair. We did it last week. We talked about that division, especially when you look at the other two teams in the division. Like, both of those teams might be 11-win teams, the Eagles and the Cowboys. I think they have a real chance to make the Super Bowl. So that, that was the team I was leaving for.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  I think Herbert is going, I think Herbert's gonna shred this league. And I was, I also, I was, I was low man. I, I had a love ahead of Herbert, my, coming out of the NFL draft. I was, you know, whether it was Rex Ryan or Kuiper, like, and I, and I really liked Herbert and I recognized the talent. Like, it doesn't take a super scout to figure out this guy's supremely gifted. But what, but he's never won. And my argument was like winners win and there's something about them. There's an it factor. There's, like, I, I remember going into a meeting in Oregon, Eugene, we're up there for like one of those coaches meetings. You meet with, it was crystal ball and then, and then the quarterback normally comes in, they command the room, right? He walks in and the offensive lineman he brings in with him and he kind of sits behind the offensive lineman.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  I'm like, I don't, this isn't a vibe that I'm, I didn't love it. And it kind of explained some of the, you know, some of the questions I had about him. But I've seen him grow and mature. I think Harbaugh has done wonders for him in terms of his like confidence. And above all, I just like the weapons they have. Now, like with this offensive system, just watching a couple of plays during this preseason of, of Mike McDaniel, what, what that system is gonna do, opening receivers up. I, I think it's going, I think they're gonna put up massive numbers this year offensively.

• 12:37Bill Simmons?

  Right now, he's third MVP odds on FanDuel, 10 to 1. Better than Lamar, better than Drake, better than Matthew Stafford, only behind Allen and Burrow. The one thing that worries me, you know, they got the tackles back this year, right? They have a left tackle or a right tackle last year. They're on backups in both spots. They got both guys backs later in on, who are awesome. They sign a center, they lose them. Their guards are probably in the running for worst guards in the league. So the middle of the line, I would say is a D minus. And I wonder, you know, we've said, oh, the line will be much better this year. Yeah, it'll be better protecting the outside, but I wonder how teams are just gonna shove up. The good side for them is McDaniel has had a lot of experience, have, coming up with plays, trying to get the ball out fast.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 13:22Bill Simmons?

  Trying to give two seconds or less, basically. So, but I, I do worry about that. I don't mind lose, having two guys I'm worried about, like the Bears have, you know, two holes in their offensive line. It's like, okay, I think we can work around that because we have three really good linemen on the, in the other three spots. But having your whole middle of the line stink makes me a little nervous.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I go back to the Texans too, while we're at it.

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  I, I can't figure out Stroud, man.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  I, I can't figure out, like, I'm telling you, I, I think you could put this, I mean, the Rams would be number one. But let's say top three, it would be hard for you to convince me that there are three other rosters, top to bottom, better, if you exclude the quarterback position than the Texans. Like, what Nick Casario has built there is, is pretty remarkable. But now you're going into your fourth season. They, they wisely, they, you know, they, they bring him back, he's the, the one year. Rookie year's phenomenal. Last two years has been a massive regression. You hear kind of whispers and is there something else going on? What, what has led to this?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  But nothing, nothing specific, and I'm talking to people in the league and no, people in the league are like, I don't know, man. I don't know. And so in this off-season, has there, has there been any change? Is there enough to, to believe that he's gonna be a different dude? And their wide receivers have been injured and he's all, you go back to college with Stroud. His slot receiver is the most important position for him. For, I mean, some, some quarterbacks have to have a great tight end. Some quarterbacks need a, a big X. You go about whether, I think it was a JSN, I think it was JSN, Jackson Smith and Jigba. Like, he, he thrives when he has a slot receiver and then Tank Del got injured and, and he hasn't been the same since, really.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  And so making sure that spot is, is taken care of and what are they gonna get from the receivers this year? And now all of a sudden you get the Higgins with the injury. But I don't know, I, CJ Stroud, if you said there's one player in this league in 2026, where like it hinges on, it could be completely stripping, now all of a sudden we need a new quarterback. We're moving on from Stroud and this thing, we gotta regroup because now the clock's ticking with all these other players that we have here. And, and, and we can't find a veteran who can come in and, and replace him. And the thing kind of becomes a mess over the next year or two. Or they could be playing in the Super Bowl. Well, like one player, you know?

• 16:00Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna throw two quarterback groups at you after I did my circle. And the first quarterback group was make or break. Guys that I just felt like, this is it. We're either going this way or this way. And Stroud was the first guy on the list. He's 28 and 8 as a starter. Rookie year, 41.08 yards, 23 TDs, five picks, 8.2 yards per attempt. And looked like he was a guy and is now looking like the guy who's either gonna hold them back. Or if he, if they can figure out, oh, we have a better running game now. We improved the offensive line a little bit. Still not great, but it's, it's a little better. Wide receivers, we, we drafted two rookies last year. One got hurt. The other one's still there. We traded for Booty.

• 16:44Bill Simmons?

  Collins, Dell's gonna show up at some point. We're probably better. And our defense is gonna be so fucking good, we just need to drive the car.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:52Bill Simmons?

  Just, just drive us from Boston to New York City and just don't get a speeding ticket. Don't hit any of their cars and we're, and we might make the Super Bowl. I have the same questions as you. Can you do it?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  I-95 route. Like, you don't have to go Merritt Parkway with all the weaving and, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, this, this route's gonna be four hours and 10 minutes, but just get us there safely.

• 17:13Bill Simmons?

  Middle lane.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Cruise control, 67, 72 miles an hour, whatever it is, and let's go.

• 17:20Bill Simmons?

  We put gas in the car. You're not gonna have to stop.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:23Bill Simmons?

  We're leaving at 1:30 between lunch and dinner. You don't need to stop for food.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:27Bill Simmons?

  Middle lane, just go straight.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Right. We're no rush to get there.

• 17:32Bill Simmons?

  Don't even use your phone. We don't, you don't need ways. You're just I-95 the whole time.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Put an audiobook on, like a true crime, you know, like just, just relax.

• 17:40Bill Simmons?

  Right. Cause I think the running game, Montgomery's, he's like a, like a B, you know? They, last year they had Fs. And this year now, Montgomery, at least he can move the chains for three and a half, four, four and a half yards when they give him the ball and, and he's gonna have to lead a ton because the defense is so good. I'm with you because then you also have the contract piece with him too.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  Cause what happens if he's really good? Then you're like, whoa, is he really good because our team's awesome? Or is he really good because he's actually good? So that's one.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, he and Bryce Young are in, in almost identical situations from that draft, right?

• 18:15Bill Simmons?

  That was my next guy.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Organizations want desperately for Stroud and Young to make that next step this year. Or, or for Stroud to, to get back to where he was as a rookie.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Young's tricky. I, I think they've handled it perfectly. Like Dan Morgan, I have a great appreciation for him as a general manager.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  They know they can't pay the guy.

• 18:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  But, but I did like, like, I thought he played pretty well in that playoff loss.

• 18:41Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  I have, I, I think he's incrementally gotten better after a disastrous start to his career. They've gotten better as an organization. They keep drafting well. They, they've kind of, I don't know. I, for the first time in a long time, I feel like they're stabilized as an organization. I really do.

• 19:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  And so now neither, neither franchise with the Texans and Stroud and Panthers with, uh, with, with Bryce Young were willing to, to, you know, go all in and, and who could, but they also have handled it well, or you, you get the sense from them, whether it's believe, whether it's true or not. It feels believable that like, we're fully behind them. We want desperately, and they do, they want desperately for both of these guys to, to take that next step this year. And for them to have to go write a massive check to them. But, but we can't do it yet, you know?

• 19:34Bill Simmons?

  There's a lot of, uh, Ted McMillan buzz too, who I guess that everyone calls T Mac, but, uh,

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:41Bill Simmons?

  but has a chance.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  He got, he got pissed at me during the draft for calling him Ted. I, I got, I got, um, I got word back from, from his people that he, he does not like Ted. First of all, you're lower on him than everybody else. So at least say his name right, you know?

• 19:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, he came on like a freight train near the end of last year. And now it looks like year two might, might really, if you're going to pick a wide receiver, what wide receiver could really make a leap? I think he's probably the best pick. So Bryce has that. I didn't like some of the injuries and bad juju stuff from the preseason with them. That always makes me nervous, but.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Same.

• 20:20Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, this'll, Bryce, this'll be like where Tua was a year ago, even though he already had the contract. But it's like, okay, we're going to know for sure one way or the other with two. I feel the same way with Bryce. Like this is it. They, if, if it's not happening this year, maybe he starts bouncing around.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, it's a good draft next year to, to.

• 20:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  You know, no matter where you're picking in the first round to, to get a guy to, to kind of plug into what they're doing and, and not skip a huge beat.

• 20:48Bill Simmons?

  My last guy for make or break, and you might have one too. But, and I think Atlanta is going to be terrible. We talked about it on my pod last week. I, I think they have a chance to be the worst team in the NFC.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Doesn't look good, right?

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they, they, there's just a lot of red flags and, you know, they have Tua, who I think they were hoping could hold the fort until Penix was healthy. And obviously can't because he's not a, not a starting football quarterback anymore. So they're, they're banking on Penix who they spent the eighth pick on the draft on. You know, it was two weeks ago. They, it feels like they drafted them.

• 21:24Bill Simmons?

  And this feels like make or break for this too. Like if this doesn't work this year, maybe you zag the other way. There's so many good quarterbacks. Maybe you try to be one of the five or six worst teams in the league. Take your chances again, but do you see any chance that they can salvage him?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  I mean, with that roster, I'm not sure to be honest. And, and, and it was always about injuries. He had 45 starts in college. And, and had some ups and downs. Began at Indiana, I think it was obviously finished at Washington. There, there were some times where you worried about his durability throughout his career in, in college. Uh, has the, the ACL in November, right? And after nine starts, some promising stuff like, I didn't, I didn't have him as the eighth best player in the draft, but I saw maybe late first round, you know, a player that, that could be a starter, but I'm not going to, I'm not giving away a top 10 pick for, for this guy.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  It's also important to remember too.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  They didn't draft him. The guys who are making the decisions now, Matt, starting with Matt Ryan, uh, Ian Cunningham, who I have, I've known for, since we were both pups in this business. Great deal of respect for Ian.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  There's something to you want your guy. And then you're staring at this draft that we can, I don't know if we'll, we'll get, how much we'll get to it in a little.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  And the list goes down to like, maybe down to 10 or 12 where, where they look like first rounders. And, and you're also looking at a season where you think you're probably going to be picking pretty high. And so maybe we get our guy and, and, and put our stamp on this organization and, and buy Tua, buy Michael. And then just let's, let's, let's build this thing from the spot that you have to build it. So I, I don't have high hopes for, for Atlanta this year. I don't have, have high hopes for Penix with Atlanta. I, for him personally, he's a great young man. I, I hope that he has a good enough season where, where there's opportunity for him. But my guess is at the end of the year that Atlanta is going to be one of these teams that we're just banging on in March and April,

• 23:33Speaker 01

  as we lead up to the 2027 NFL draft is they're very much in the mix. And they're worried like, all right, the Jets have three picks. Cleveland's got two. Are they, are they going to get leapfrog? Yeah, exactly.

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're, they're, they're under in the over unders. There's been a lot of action on the under.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  What's the over under?

• 23:52Bill Simmons?

  I think it's, it was seven and a half and now it's like kind of between, there's heavy juice on the under for seven and a half. And slate juice if you go under six and a half. Yeah. Six and a half's right.

• 24:04Bill Simmons?

  What you said about we want our guys when people take over like a movie studio or, or the TV side. And it's like, yeah, we have, and it's like, well, I don't get credit for that. If it works out, I'm just going to get rid of those. I want to come up with stuff that we did because then we get the credit. In football, especially at Penix, three ACLs already. Haven't really seen enough flashes to me to be like, all right, let's try one more year. I'm trying to get another quarterback. I have four QBs at a very interesting inflection point of their careers. And you mentioned Herbert, actually five, I'm sorry. You mentioned Herbert already.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:42Bill Simmons?

  Josh Allen, we don't need to do the whole Josh Allen, Super Bowl legacy. We don't need to do that. Drake May, we talked about already.

• 24:50Bill Simmons?

  The last two, Burrow and Stafford for different reasons.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 24:56Bill Simmons?

  Because Burrow, six years, he's only made it to the finish line in three, hasn't made the playoffs since 22. Is still being perceived as one of the five best guys, right? Bengals are being considered a playoff team. They're, they're favored to win 10 plus games. And people are always making excuses about the offensive line. They don't spend enough. And meanwhile, they, they went and they kept those two big receivers, but. Walk me through what happens if the Bengals go eight and nine this year and Burrow's not that good.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Oof. And he plays the whole season.

• 25:30Bill Simmons?

  And he plays the whole season and it's just like, yeah, they're eight and nine.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I, I, I actually think a healthy Burrow is, I, I think so highly of a healthy Burrow that that doesn't even compute for me.

• 25:47Bill Simmons?

  So he's a guaranteed 10 win guy for you if, if he's healthy and can play the whole season?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you, if you give me best of, or close to best of, 100%, healthy, good season from Joe Burrow. I think they're a 10 win team just because of Joe. I mean, the defense has obviously improved. They like, they, they've actually done some positive things.

• 26:09Bill Simmons?

  But still can't block.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  They still can't block and I don't know how.

• 26:13Bill Simmons?

  Seems like a problem.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Honestly, you, I am such a, like, I just, he's a different cat. I can remember sitting in meetings with Brian Greasy and I sat in meetings with him at LSU and walking out of there and both looking at each other. Cause normally like, we would have a sense of like, I don't know about this guy or like, how, how good was that, you know? And both of us being like, so what do you think? Like, I, I don't, what, what do you?

• 26:37Bill Simmons?

  What do you think?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I don't know. And I don't mean like, I don't know. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, I legitimately don't know.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  And then just watching his progression, I, I don't, there are very few guys that can maneuver the pocket. They could, that, that read things the way he does, that had the, the onions, as I like to say, to make some of the throws that he makes. Like he's just different, man. He's just different. But this thing has eroded him. And, and like physically, emotionally, I don't think confidence wise, but I do, I do wonder when that starts to set in. I kind of want to see him go somewhere else if this, if this year isn't, hey, we're back in the playoffs, things are rolling. I want to see Joe Burrow get an opportunity somewhere else where it's like, ah, here's Joe, like Stafford. Who's next up that we're going to talk about? I, I, I wouldn't mind seeing a Stafford like situation.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  It wasn't as dismal in Cincinnati. They obviously made the Super Bowl, but like, I, I want to see elite, special players wind up with opportunities where they can actually go and, and be themselves, you know?

• 27:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, we see this in the NBA all the time. It feels like it happens 10 times as much in the NBA, but a guy of a couple of down years, like he, basically Devin Booker now in Phoenix, right? Somebody, somebody like that who we know can be swimming in the pool of, of the final four, the title potentially, if he's your best guy or close to your best guy. And now is basically in 500 teams. It's like, well, I know there's more there. I wonder if they trade him. But then we've had people like Anthony Davis get traded and Durant traded or signed with new teams a bunch of times. I do think if they're not a 10 or 11 win team, I do wonder if he's on that team next year. Maybe after seven years, maybe you're just like, fuck it. Let's, who's ready to make us a godfather offer? The Stafford thing is different. Obviously.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I'm shocked that we're talking about, but go ahead.

• 28:29Bill Simmons?

  Cause Orlovsky got me thinking, cause Orlovsky had that thing on TV this week where he said they win another Super Bowl, he's one of the seven best ever. And I'm like, that doesn't, I know we say stuff on TV, we make, we say list stuff, but maybe we don't have the list. The question for me is can Stafford move into the top 10 and get the 10th spot, which I think the competition would be Steve Young, Breeze, Josh Allen, ironically, who probably after everything said and done, is going to take it anyway. Bradshaw and Otto Graham. And Stafford's thrown over 60,000 yards, MVP, Super Bowl win. It would be interesting if they won again. Remember Elway won the two. He won the first one, but then they won the second one too.

• 29:11Bill Simmons?

  And it just completely changed, it tilted how we just saw him after that. And I think that's at stake for Stafford. I, I personally think he'd have to be the 10th guy on that list if they won the Super Bowl again. I don't know. Where do you stand?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Who did you say after Breeze? What was the second name?

• 29:28Bill Simmons?

  This would, this would be the 10th spot right now. Steve Young, Breeze.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Steve Young, Steve Young.

• 29:32Bill Simmons?

  Josh Allen, Terry Bradshaw, Otto Graham, I think would be the next five in some order.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Well, here, here's what I do know. Orlovsky's always been right about Matthew Stafford. But Orlovsky's also been just a little north of, of reasonable with it, you know? Because they were teammates and all that. So, so I, I take, I take what he's saying sometimes and like, yeah, you're right. How special he is. You're right about all of that, but like, we're always got to go a little too far. But I, it is, it, it does change a career when you look back on it. That second Super Bowl. And my gosh, as he lined up for it this year. I, I'm fascinated to see how, how it plays out with the, the health of Aaron Donald.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Can they manage that throughout the year? I guess it's the skeptic in me. It's like every time we, every time we think that there's this super team in the NFL, that they're unbeatable, coming into the year.

• 30:33Bill Simmons?

  It's usually dicey.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Something happens. And I, and I'm not sitting here trying to get, like send bad juju to that way. I like, I love Sean. I love what they've done organization. I was like, I'm, I'm behind everything that they're doing. But, but I'm worried about that. But, but specifically to answer your question, like I think he is different. I really do. I, I think, I think Stafford sees the game and then he's one of the rare ones. Like Breeze saw this, the game, the way Stafford does.

• 31:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Stafford just has better tools, right? Stafford can make a, make four or five throws in a game that, that Drew just couldn't, you know? And that's the difference. And then the longevity of it and, and ascending, yes, yes, ascending because he had a different opportunity in the supporting cast, but ascending even like late years. Like the year he just put up last year, man, it kind of like defies logic, right?

• 31:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  And the throws he's still making at that age. And sometimes you see like, you know, I remember like, was it Clemens late in his career or like Pedro, like they lost their stuff, but they could still, but it feels like he's still got all of his stuff.

• 31:51Bill Simmons?

  Clemens is a good, that's a good analogy for this.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Clemens, right?

• 31:54Bill Simmons?

  Clemens had this whole extra six years in the 2000s or five years, whatever it was, past his double prime, when he was still like, he felt like he could go out and start a game three of a world series and throw seven innings.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, I don't know. I, I think top 10 is absolutely in the, in the cards. And I mean, fine.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  Seven is, seven is not, seven, I'm not.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  No, no. And then let's see what happens with Josh Allen's got a lot of career left and Josh Allen's like, Josh Allen could, if he, if Stafford descends to 10, Allen's get the next X amount of years to, to go steal that spot from them. Then now we're, we're looking at 11. But at the end of the day, you're one of the best, what's called 12 quarterbacks to ever play in this game.

• 32:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Pretty good.

• 32:42Bill Simmons?

  I'm with you on the Rams. I'm, I'm a little skeptical because of the super team thing and the history of it. We talked last week on the pod about the last 30 years, there's really only been one prohibitive favorite that's actually won the Super Bowl. It was the 2018 Patriots who easily could have lost in Kansas City during that run, right?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  Like just a lot can go wrong, especially with the top heavy roster. And I don't, I don't feel, I think Seattle has more talent. I think the Rams higher level talent, they're top tier guys. If you're going to go seven, this top seven versus top seven, the Rams are better. But I think Seattle has more talent. And we talked last week about can you be a nobody believes in us team after you won a Super Bowl? And I kind of feel like Seattle qualifies. Like everyone's just discounting them and pushing them aside and trying to come up with other teams. And meanwhile, they're basically bringing 90% of their core back, you know, including, including just about everyone on the defense, which was the reason they won the Super Bowl.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm going to contradict myself though. And then you, and then you envision an NFC championship rematch, right?

• 33:48Bill Simmons?

  With Aaron Donald now playing 50 plays in the, in the NFC title game instead of 30.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  And Miles Garrett coming off the edge and two, and one damn good corner and, and then another capable corner. And that was about the only thing that got them, you know? And, and now how does that look for, for Bradford, you know? I don't know.

• 34:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Let's, um, let's take a break because I, we have 25 minutes to rip through college football. Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Every winning team has that one player who can do it all. The new PayPal app, it's kind of like that. You can shop, pay, earn rewards, manage your account, all in one place. Plus find offers, deals and stackable rewards. PayPal offer also offers purchase protection on eligible items. So you're covered if something doesn't go your way. Download the new PayPal app to get started and see paypal.com/protectionterms. Fun college football season ahead. I'm obviously invested with UCLA. The draft is going to be incredible.

• 34:51Bill Simmons?

  The storylines are all over the place. And just when I thought I couldn't be more excited as the most casual college football fan possible, you come up this week with content saying that 17 guys could go with the first pick in the draft. And I think, I think you, it, you made the case and there's all these dudes. And I think the biggest case with this is the quarterbacks, what we've seen year to year, the last few years, whatever we think is going to happen in the summer, by the time we get to January, the things flipped. So you have, you have like, you have Moore and Sellers and Carr, Manning, Levitt, Chambliss, Mensah and Nico.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  So you think there's, is there a world where all eight of those guys could potentially go number one if the season shifted certain ways?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  I think there's a world in which all eight of them, if, if they all play to the level I think they're capable of, could wind up being first round picks. I think, also think you have to keep in consideration that, you know, last year, a lot of people were on Drew Aller. It wasn't for me. Clubnik, I, I thought Clubnik was going to take another step. He didn't. Nussmeyer got, got injured all season long. He had a great camp. Clubnik's had a great camp. They both showed they still know how to play football. But, but what's different this year is almost all those guys on the list have, have an opportunity to go back to school too. So we could be, we could re-rack this thing and be talking about 2018, but I don't, I

• 36:25Speaker 01

  think probably, I would set the over under at five for first rounders of this group. But when it comes to the first overall, what's interesting about this class and hasn't been talked about a lot. Like Dante Moore, the Raiders were out sending their brass to games and really looking at this situation. And it was a tough decision. There were people in the organization that favored Dante heavily. And there were people in the organization who really thought Mendoza was the guy. And then Dante Moore makes it a non-decision when he decides to go back to school for another year.

• 37:02Bill Simmons?

  Would you liked and appreciated that he did that?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I thought it was smart. I thought it showed maturity. He was ready enough, but for the money you can go back and make and to give yourself another year of opportunity to grow and to come into this league where we're seeing guys like Bo Nix have success with 63 starts or whatever it is. Guys are coming in with 30, like almost minimum 30 starts. And we're seeing a lot fewer, not in all cases, but we're seeing fewer and fewer of those like just dead on busts, right? And I think a lot of it has to do with experience and maturity and you've been through some adversity. But this year's class, it can go both ways with all of them. And even Dante, he's the easiest one to say, yeah, he's the most likely to be the number one overall pick.

• 37:50Bill Simmons?

  Would you say he was CJ Stroud 2.0 or CJ Stroud?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  I think there's so much of CJ.

• 37:56Bill Simmons?

  Turbo CJ Stroud?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yes. I think he's a little bit more willing to run, but definitely pocket passer first. Just that I'm saying a lot of the same things about Dante as I was about Stroud when he came out. It's best pure passer, the touch, throws a beautiful ball. It's like the receivers don't have to work to go get it. Understands the offense, distributes it, moves around the pocket. He's a little more willing to run, but neither has this howitzer of an arm. Good arm, can make all the throws. But the big thing for me is I need the big moments. Mendoza's tape last year, Bill, it was up and down. Dante Moore was the better quarterback. If you go and you just, every single play for both of them, Dante Moore was the better

• 38:42Speaker 01

  quarterback. But the moments, it was like 28 touchdowns, zero interceptions in the red zone. Highest efficiency, third downs, fourth down. He threw himself into problems late in games. Oregon, I mean, yeah, Oregon, Iowa, Penn State. Interceptions, one was a pick six against Oregon. And then he made the play or the drive or the five plays late in the game that won it. So he had those moments where you can see that he's wired differently, right?

• 39:12Bill Simmons?

  I love those guys.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I need to see that out of Dante. You know, like we had that Indiana game with the pick six and then he has one good drive and then it falls apart again. Can't see that out of him this year because you know what, like nipping at his heels. This Lenora Sellers guy from South Carolina gets a new offensive coordinator this year. I'm telling you, six, one and a half, whatever, 230 build. He is as fast as he is quick. He's got a rocket for an arm. He's not an elite passer, but he's better than Jalen Hurts was. I think he's better than Lamar Jackson was coming out in terms of just pure passing. I think he's got a chance to be like right there at the end this year if South Carolina

• 39:56Speaker 01

  with Briles there, Kendall Briles. And then Darian Mance is another guy that nobody's talking about. He's, I watched Mance's tape and I'm like, how big of a gap is there between him and Dante Moore? And now he goes from Duke to Miami as the second best or 1A, 1B in terms of pocket passing, but he's a better runner. And then you got Arch Manning, who like if he, if his eyes are in the right place and his mechanics are better and he's able to hit more spots than he was last year. Going back to summer and watching him, I forgot how fast he is. Like he's the antithesis of his uncles.

• 40:37Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. He has the Manning stigma. You just assume he's slow because he's related to Peyton.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Or you assume that he's really like, he must've been in all the camps growing up and he much said such an understanding of offensive and his feet must be great. He's not. He's just kind of a gunslinger who when he takes off running, he just runs by with those long strides, runs by a ton of guys. And then CJ Carr at Notre Dame, he's not the biggest. He doesn't have the biggest arm, but I would argue he's got the best processing, smartest quarterback of the entire class and he is so damn accurate throwing the ball.

• 41:14Bill Simmons?

  We said that about JJ McCarthy.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  No, it's different, man.

• 41:19Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  It's different. It's different.

• 41:22Bill Simmons?

  People are scarred by JJ.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  I could see that and maybe that'll be the thing this year. And you know what? They're not playing anyone comparatively speaking, you know, for the vast majority of the year. I think he could easily win the Heisman, Notre Dame quarterback, 11, 12 win regular season. But I think he's just wired differently.

• 41:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, you had Sellers, you had Sellers second.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Bill Simmons?

  At least in your preseason rankings, which he is not on the draft boards. That's not a consensus pick, but it seems like you're the highest on him of anybody I've seen.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Well, we did a seven-part series in the show.

• 42:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  And doing all these quarterbacks, we're kind of pitting them head to head. We couldn't do 14 shows, one on each. So and I just kind of assumed going into the year, especially the way Arch finished, that like all the talk was who's number one? Is it Arch or is it Dante, right? And then we got done with that and it was like clearly Dante, Arch can absolutely make those next steps this year. People forget too, the Mannings like to stay, they like to overstay their welcome in college and be ready for the NFL. So don't rule out him being in the 28 draft. And then we got to Carr and Sellers and a couple of the other guys. And it was like, yeah, I don't know.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  It's not only not one, you know, Arch versus Dante should be the number one guy. It's is Arch even in the top three, you know? And could Arch be the fifth best coming into the year?

• 42:53Bill Simmons?

  You have him fourth.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  I've got him fourth. And I think Sam Levitt at LSU with Lane Kiffin, who's in the, you know, all the headlines for all the wrong reasons or all the, you know, the off the field reasons with now trying to bring pro players back. And I get it, like, let's blow this whole college thing up to get some leadership in place, but that's a different show. There's, they're very few. Like he's in the one handful of guys in college where you see a player as talented as Levitt, who's more talented than Jackson Dart.

• 43:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  More explosive runner, more dynamic, bigger arm. And you watch Dart and the way he progressed and then Trinidad Chambliss in one year coming from Ferris State, Division II, to see the way he progressed. And now you're giving him the most talented quarterback he's worked with since like his USC days in a full year to do that. And I get the schedule is difficult and all that. I think Sam Levitt could be in the conversation for number one overall when it's all said and done. But yeah, I mean, this class is, and by the way, did Chesney give you, like, what's the update from your boy on Nico?

• 44:03Bill Simmons?

  Just a lot of optimism right now in the UCLA side. Nico's like, if you're a new coach taking over a program and you get this guy who's super talented as your QB, who's actually had some success in the past, right? So it's like, it's fixable. Whatever was going on, you can fix it or you can accentuate all the good things about him and put him in the right environment. I mean, I do think he's a Heisman possibility. You know, I think they'd have to go eight and three, nine and two, but as a dark horse, I think, I think any of these quarterbacks as a dark horse, but you know, Fandel has them, I think Fandel has them seven plus wins is basically even odds. They're 22 to one to make the college playoffs, but they've been, they keep adding dudes.

• 44:47Bill Simmons?

  They just added the James Madison linebacker who's, you know, was the best linebacker in that part of the country last year. So I don't know what to think anymore.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Can we take a step back and just look like I've followed you, I've gotten to know you well in the last couple of years.

• 45:02Bill Simmons?

  When I'm in, I'm all in.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  I followed you. I followed your career. The fact that you're talking to me about a JMU linebacker.

• 45:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  The portal is like.

• 45:12Bill Simmons?

  It's the Sunbelt Player of the Year.

• 45:18Bill Simmons?

  Shit's happening at UCLA.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Oh, I love it.

• 45:22Bill Simmons?

  But here's the other thing with, you know, and you see this with college football. We just saw it at Indiana. When you go from like, you have a fan base that's basically been in the desert with just canteens and some Fritos. And that's all they've had for 20 years. And now you pull up with like your fucking cheeseburger cart and you're like, hey, who wants to eat? Everyone's like, oh, my God, is this real? Is this happening? So I think that energy from just them potentially being good again, I don't know, that can, we just saw it. It can transform everything. It can lift everybody up and magical shit can happen.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  I don't think people nationally have a clue how good Nico is. I, I, in fact, I kind of wanted, I didn't want to write him off. I kind of was like, I'm like, I'll let him, let him maybe a couple of years. We'll, we'll revisit Nico. Like that whole thing was ugly at Tennessee.

• 46:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Is there parent involvement, the money? And then I, and then I had a scout call me in, um, in October. It's like, yo, I, I know they're not like national picture. You're focusing on the top teams and all that. And I know you're getting ready for the, this year's draft, but when you get a minute, go watch what, what Nico's doing. And he's, and he's doing it with not a whole lot. And then I, I put in some of the tape then I was like, yep, all right, keep him in mind. And then I watched the summer. He's got, he's got a toughness about him that I didn't expect. He's got a, an ability to bounce back from mistakes that I, I kind of was worried about when you think, when you kind of build a mental picture of, yeah, he's kind of going after the money. He's a mercenary. What's going on?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  But this guy loves ball and you can't hide that on tape. And then you watch this like six foot five gazelle when he takes off to run. And then you watch the ability at six foot five to make guys miss in small, small spaces. And then I start to watch some of those NFL throws, like leading anticipation, drilling it from one hash to the, to the sideline. Like there's nothing he can't do. Now, his deep ball accuracy was atrocious at Tennessee. They didn't drive it vertically as much last year. I'm interested to see this year if he can improve in that area. But otherwise, like he's another guy. I just like, don't rule him out when we start talking about like, fine. If it's not number one overall pick, it was a fun exercise and it brought a lot of awareness.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Like Mendoza was a second round pick for most and he's the number one overall pick. And, and you go back, Cam Ward, I talked to a scout in September of his final year, two years ago. And he's like, man, you're like, get off of Cam Ward. I've got a fifth on him. And he's the number one overall pick and Jaden Daniels is the number two overall pick. And he was considered like a third or fourth by most scouts. So like we went and six out of the last 10 guys that wound up number one overall picks. They weren't even considered first rounders coming in the year, including Kyler, who was like the number nine overall major league baseball draft pick. He wasn't even going to play in the NFL. So, so it's, it's a fun exercise. But when you start to look at all of these guys and what the potential is for them and you look at Nico.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  I don't know. If he takes another step with the right supporting cast this year, people are going to have to, they're, they're going to have to pay attention. Because he's more talented than, than the guy that we're all saying, like, is probably going to be the number one overall pick in Dante Moore. He's just flat out more talented. So.

• 48:44Bill Simmons?

  Chesney at Holy Cross had this guy Sluka, who he used to use, you know, like he would do these designed run plays and just would really use his athleticism, which it was a lower competition. So it was helpful, but he kind of reminds me a little bit of what he could do with Nico. Where use his legs and these like really smart ways. Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:07Bill Simmons?

  There's also a couple of awesome non-quarterbacks in this draft.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:12Bill Simmons?

  Like Jeremiah Smith, who, um, did, did you see the, uh, what was that? The Caleb Downs was saying, he said in some interview that he thought Lamb and Pickens, he was like, no, no, Jeremiah Smith is as good as those guys. It's like, whoa, those guys are really good.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Someone remind Caleb, he's got to go back to the locker room today too. Those aren't too like, you know, easygoing. Yeah, I, I get it. You know, like, yeah. But, uh, but, and I, I actually answered that question like talent wise, yeah, he's better than both of them. Now, like there's something to being a veteran, you know, having the experience and learning how to get off a press against grown ass men and all that stuff. But, but from a talents perspective, and I feel like, yeah, we did it with Marvin Harrison Jr. And look, you know.

• 49:57Bill Simmons?

  Feel a little burned. I would say feel a little burned from the Marvin Harrison Jr. hype.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  And I hear you, but, but here's the other part. Remember the Julio Jones, A.J. Green class, uh, 2011?

• 50:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  And I wound up, it was, it was Julio. He's the best, best receiver in the class. And the comp for Jeremiah Smith is Julio Jones. That's who we, big.

• 50:19Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Get down four, four speed downhill, just like a freight train running through you, but then can stop and adjust. But, but I think the comp for, for Cam Coleman, who's transferring from Auburn, he gets out of like the refugee camp there where they don't have a quarterback who could play. And winds up with Arch Manning now at Texas. Um, I, I think it's, I think there's some similarities with A.J. Green. Kind of like that Gumby elasticity.

• 50:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting. So you have both of those guys ahead of anyone from last year?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:50Bill Simmons?

  Any receiver?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Here's an interesting one. I'm not going to name it. The NFL has a couple of scouting groups, let's call it. Where they, they pool different scouts, like national, bless them. One of them, I just went back for a reference. So one of them has, and their grades are, they're, they're entry level scouts in a lot of cases. I'm not, but it, it matches up with what our grades are in the preseason. But just for, just so it doesn't feel like we're overhyping it, right? Mentioned, I, um, like even the, one of the scouting services that, and if, that like 20 plus NFL teams belong to, um, I think it was 20, I counted 24 players with grades this year. Coming into the season, higher than the highest grade of a player last year.

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  You can even see it in, in hoops too, where they'll have the high school class that's coming in and they grade it from zero to a hundred. And sometimes it'll be like 99, 97, 97, 96. And it'll just, it's just like, wow, that year had more talent than the year after. I don't know why. This football, because we didn't even mention Dylan Stewart, the edge from Carolina. And then, uh, Leonard Moore, the cornerback from Notre Dame. Both of those guys seem like.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Bill Simmons?

  Top of the line dudes.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  He's like Pat Surtan.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Like just throw him in the mix with those like 10 quarterbacks we just talked about. And, and oh, and yeah, and Colin Simmons after, after Dylan Stewart, the Texas linebacker. And, oh, and this Yancey Pierre from, uh, from Alabama at edge two. So there's three edges. Like we could have another like Khalil Mack, Jadevion Clowney type. Well, he's a better player, but this guy's a better upside. Like.

• 52:27Bill Simmons?

  And then two killer offensive linemen too. This is a nutty draft. So you could be, you could have the 10th pick in this draft and get somebody who might be like a three time all pro.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. It's going to be, you, you could have the 23rd pick in this draft and they might, you know, that range could be better. As I just was saying, that range could be better than like maybe a seventh overall pick last or this year. So.

• 52:49Bill Simmons?

  My last question, I'm not going to, I'm not going to ask you who's going to win the national championship because you got to do that with mention your show. For my people, for the people who listen to this, who are both diehard college fans, but also casual, just put it on a Saturday. Who is the must watch team this year? Or give us like your top three, give us your bronze, silver, gold. Three teams that are just going to be guaranteeing the entertainment all year. I'm going to have a good time watching their games.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  LSU. I mean.

• 53:18Bill Simmons?

  LSU, is that, are they bronze, silver or gold?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I'm going to go gold.

• 53:23Bill Simmons?

  Wow, gold for LSU.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And then they might wind up with three or four losses, but like Lane Kiffin, leaving Ole Miss in the college football playoff. Quarterback who he, he, he found is the 246 picked, uh, ranked Juco quarterback, not player, quarterback. Brought him into Ole Miss and Trinidad Chambliss, developed them into, that game against Georgia that Chambliss had was the best tape outside of maybe Mendoza versus Ohio State that I saw of any quarterback last year. And then leaves and the quarterback's like, no, see you, Lane. Like I'm, I'm good here. I'm going to stay here. Early in the season, they, they play Ole Miss. They kick off the season with Clemson. They now are trying to get three former NFL players who were in camp, signed contracts, back in.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  There's an, there's another meeting in Baton Rouge or another hearing in Baton Rouge on Thursday with the judge. Who's got to determine whether they can block the TRO to allow these players to play. They can't play against Clemson. But so like to start the season, there's all this mess. And by the way, I think we know how the Baton Rouge judge is going to, is going to.

• 54:31Bill Simmons?

  Keep us posted on that trial.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Then we get the rematch to get, or the, the matchup against Ole Miss and, and then you get Sam Levitt coming in. So LSU and Lane Kiffin is, is the, like they're absolute must watch.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  You know, Oregon's going to, Oregon's, Oregon and Texas have the best two rosters.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Texas, I'm more like Texas is either gonna run this thing and look awesome and win a national championship, or you're already hearing some like splintering and like this player was dismissed from the team and there's some social media posts. So Texas would for me as arguably the most talented team in the country, this thing could go, remember last year we had Penn State and Clemson came into the year. We talked about them as like these rosters, the, you know, they're, they're, they're ranked one, two. Neither of them finished in the top 25. Like Texas is either gonna be like right there at the end, or this thing could fall apart. I, I get that feeling. And then I'm gonna throw, I mean, Signetti, obviously

• 55:35Speaker 01

  in Indiana, but I'm, I'm gonna throw Miami in there. Watching, watching Cristobal like get over the hump last year and win some massive games and not have the errors late, late in the games, like, you know, clock management, those sorts of things. Now they upgrade over Carson Beck and bring in this men's a guy that I don't think people have any respect for nationally, like how good he really is. Just talked about that. And you've got the most explosive dynamic weapon in, in all of college football, not named Jeremiah Smith and Malachi Tony, who's now gonna be a true sophomore. And I just, I, I think with their schedule in the ACC, they're gonna be in it late. And I think they're gonna keep getting better. I think they're, they're gonna be a freight train towards

• 56:20Speaker 01

  the, I actually, we already gave it out. So I could say here, I, I'm picking Miami to win the national championship.

• 56:26Bill Simmons?

  Okay. So is that, cause the, the other question I was gonna ask you is if you had to say somebody was gonna be 2026 Indiana, who would you pick? But it sounds like it's Miami.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, let me look at my list here. Let me see if I can find another, um.

• 56:43Bill Simmons?

  I like the Miami pick.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Miami would be.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  I think that's good.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Miami would be the pick. That would be, yeah.

• 56:49Bill Simmons?

  How many wins for UCLA?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Eight.

• 56:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think eight and three seems reasonable to me. And then maybe you get, maybe it's eight and four because you get to the, you know, some.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  We play 12 in the regular season. This is what I'm talking about.

• 57:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I should know that as a casual college football fan.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  JMU transfer linebackers and we get.

• 57:10Bill Simmons?

  Eight and four.

• 57:13Bill Simmons?

  Eight, four plus playoffs. The, the playoff win count as like if they got in a bowl or something?

• 57:21Speaker 01

  We'll give you a bowl. We're, we're not going playoffs.

• 57:23Bill Simmons?

  Oh, eight's happening. That's the best bet on the board right now. My guy. Um, all right, McShay. Say hi to Mensch. Is he doing all right? Is he doing all right with the Mickey Gasper and the, uh, another Red Sox come from behind win, all kinds of fun stuff.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  He's doing all right. We, we just did a little retreat out in Montana, the, the Menches and the McShays. So we, uh, we're, we're, we're good to go.

• 57:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh, nice. All right. Say hi to everybody. Good to see you. Don't forget about McShay's newsletter, which is excellent. And then the McShay Show, which is kicking into full gear, uh, starting this weekend. Good to see you.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Good to see you, bud.

• 57:58Bill Simmons?

  Thanks.

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• 59:53Bill Simmons?

  All right, Diana Taurasi is here. Not only is she one of the great women's basketball players of all time, she was a guest on the last episode of the Grantland Basketball Hour. One day before I was, I was basically out at ESPN. So we have, we have a big history. I had to have you on to talk about women's hoops and just what we're watching this year because you were in it forever. You played in the league. What was your first year, like oh, five?

• 1:00:18Speaker 06

  Oh, four was my rookie year. Yeah, straight out of Connecticut. Yeah, oh, four.

• 1:00:22Bill Simmons?

  And now we have these teams, these are running gun, we're over 100 points all the time. It's guard dependent. I think it's been so much fun to watch. And of course, all the discourse about the WNBA is all the stupid stuff that I have no interest in talking about. I've been marveling at how fun it is to watch women's basketball. What is different? Do you see it?

• 1:00:42Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, yeah, I think everything like, everything in life is, it's always trendy. And when I got to the WNBA in oh, four, the game was just super physical. It was an older league, right? There was a lot of, like, there was rookies that were 32, you know, when they get just started. So like, it wasn't this young, energetic league. It was like a lot of old veteran players that, you know, played a certain way for a long, long time. And I want to say, and I think in oh, seven is when we hired Paul Westhead, who's the guru of go, who's like, who originated like the running gun and, you know, for his whole life, it was, well, that can't work. You can't win a championship like that. And he came into the WNBA not knowing anything about women's basketball. But I mean, he didn't,

• 1:01:23Speaker 06

  I, I don't even think he knew who I was. He had like zero clue. Um, but he brought this style of play in, um, and we won two championships in oh, seven and then in oh, nine with Corey Gaines. Um, and I think that, that stayed around for a little bit.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 06

  But people, you know, it's like anything, when they don't know how to teach it, they're not convinced with it. So they go back to their old ways. So there, there was a long period where it was heavy center dominated. Like, you know, every team had the center you'd come down and you'd throw it into and bop, bop, bop. And it's changed in the last, you know, three or four years.

• 1:01:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Cardosa, her style, and even Asia, who's been the best player in the league for half a decade. But you put your forward at the foul line, she faced up, tried to either do like spin move and get to the basket or shoot. And that was basically everybody's offense and.

• 1:02:11Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, I played with BG for 10 years. I mean, every team had two, six, five stiffs just to match up with her.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Right. Right. It was almost like the NBA in like the 50s and 60s. But you know, you need luck with this stuff. And now we have all of these guards that are, are coming in. Each year there's been either one or two.

• 1:02:29Speaker 06

  Well, and, and Bill, you gotta, you know, it's like you have to adapt the rules too. You know, for half my career, there was no three seconds in the key. It's not like there was room to get in there and Euro step. I mean, there was six people clogging the lane. You know, a lot like, you know, 80s and early 90s NBA where there's just no room to operate. So I think with the rule change and the three seconds and no hand checking, I mean, we could go on and on about that stuff.

• 1:02:53Bill Simmons?

  Would you have had, what are, what are your stats if you're in your prime in 2026 on the right team?

• 1:02:59Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, I, I averaged, I think 25 for like five straight years.

• 1:03:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:03:06Speaker 06

  I mean, free throws are up, three-point percentage is up.

• 1:03:10Bill Simmons?

  Points per game is up. I think you're, you're in the high 20s, maybe 30.

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  I mean, I, I, I think the way it's trending, um, you're gonna see someone average 30 in the next two or three years. And, you know, with the addition of teams, you know how that goes. You add a lot of teams, but there's also now a lot of more bad teams, as we see like in the NBA, where yeah, people are gonna be putting up 42 every night if you're playing against a bad team that has nothing to compete for.

• 1:03:35Bill Simmons?

  Right. And there's three-point shooting is at a whole other level than it was.

• 1:03:38Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, we watched, we watched the game all the time and, uh, I still have to adjust like, was that a good shot? Have we really just taken that shot now? Oh, were you just gonna come down and just take any wide open shot by any player? I mean, there is that different type of playing now that I think Westhead gave us that a little bit, but you know, that's not how, that's not how we grew up playing the game, right? It was reverse the ball, everyone touches it. Like, no one's touching the ball now.

• 1:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, do you think that, is that a regular season thing? Cause I wonder in the playoffs, when the stakes are higher, are we gonna see people pull up from the arc and take 30-foot threes in the fourth quarter? I'm gonna say no.

• 1:04:16Speaker 06

  No, you know, in the playoff, everything gets tighter, right? Everything, you know, they let you play a bit more physical, um, possessions are less, you know, teams aren't turning it over as much. So you're not playing in transition. I mean, I think those are the teams, I mean, Coach Ramo would always say it. I think the last two and a half months of practice going into the NCAA tournament, all we worked on was half-court offense. He goes, that's the only thing that'll win you a championship. You can talk about defense and rebounding, but if you can't execute in the half-court, you're not gonna win.

• 1:04:46Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that was the Knicks. We just watched it in the, in the playoffs with them. Came down to execution late.

• 1:04:52Speaker 06

  I mean, I've never seen a team be outplayed four straight games and be up 3-1. I've never seen that in my life.

• 1:05:01Bill Simmons?

  What was the luckiest championship you won? Did you have a lucky one? Or did you?

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:05:05Bill Simmons?

  Were all of them the right championship?

• 1:05:06Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:05:06Bill Simmons?

  But did you have one where it's like, man, some stuff went right for us?

• 1:05:09Speaker 06

  I mean, in 2007, that's when we were just, you know, we were all in our mid twenties. We had no clue what we were doing. You know, it was our first, first year in the playoffs. We get to the finals and we're playing the Detroit Shock. You know, Bill Laimbeer's the coach. It's Swinkash, Katie Smith, Tweety Nolan, Cheryl Ford. I mean, this is like, it's like Bad Boys, Bad Girls 2.0. Like, they just won a championship. Two, like, distinct ways of playing basketball. You know, they were ground and pound, like you said, possession, rebound, throw it up, go get it. And we were the opposite. We were like, how many threes can we get up? You know, we played this, you know, fake matchup zone, which would give them fits.

• 1:05:51Speaker 06

  And now, there was no business winning that game five in Detroit. But for some reason, you know, when it's your year, it just happens.

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes it's your year. That's what happened to the Knicks.

• 1:06:01Speaker 06

  Well, you know.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes you need a seven foot five guy to throw the ball off somebody's back with nine seconds left.

• 1:06:05Speaker 06

  I mean.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  A crazy tip in and a couple of things need to happen.

• 1:06:09Speaker 06

  I mean, who would have thought Jalen Brunson would be this much of a problem on the court? And I, and I mean it, I mean it not that we didn't know he was a great player, but at a certain point, I was like, can anyone guard this man?

• 1:06:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 06

  Like, no one could guard him.

• 1:06:25Bill Simmons?

  And it would seem like he was gaining strength and getting stronger as the playoffs went along, which it should usually be the opposite. He was like, they played like 97 games and he seemed, it honestly reminded me a little of Messi in the World Cup. How when you watch Messi, he was like 38 and he's obviously one of the smaller guys. But he's so freaking strong. And so low to the ground and just keeps coming and coming and coming and picking his spots. And he just figured it out.

• 1:06:50Speaker 06

  Well, and there's nothing like mental fortitude. I mean, that, that Knicks team was on, on a mission. And, you know, I'm a Laker fan. I know, you know, we're.

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  I'm sorry.

• 1:07:01Speaker 06

  But you know, it's not, it's, it wasn't hard to root for that team. Like.

• 1:07:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Speaker 06

  They were all nice guys. Like Jalen Brunson's a great guy. Mikal, Ja, I mean, they were just guys you wanted to root for because they just played hard. And even Kat, I didn't hear him complain about touches once. He just wanted to win.

• 1:07:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what happens when you haven't won one. You hit a point, Doc Rivers always loves talking about this. You hit that point where everybody's got to sacrifice something. And as long as people are willing to do it, it gets harder if you've already won and you have to come back the next year and start sacrificing again when you've already done it.

• 1:07:33Speaker 06

  Well.

• 1:07:34Bill Simmons?

  That first time, you gotta do it.

• 1:07:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, I always feel, I, I laugh when I hear the word sacrifice because, you know, before every season, coaches will be like, all right, we have to sacrifice. And you sacrifice, you sacrifice. But there's always that one person, oh, wait, I have to sac, I thought you meant them. Come on, me to sacrifice? No, no, no, I thought you meant them.

• 1:07:52Bill Simmons?

  I'm not giving up shots.

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  You mean me? No, not me, coach. They, they should sacrifice minutes and some open looks. But, you know, the Knicks team was, was fun to watch. It's, it was nice to see a team win in that fashion because you hadn't seen it in so long.

• 1:08:09Bill Simmons?

  Team ball, unselfishness.

• 1:08:11Speaker 06

  You know what?

• 1:08:12Bill Simmons?

  To find the odds, it was fun.

• 1:08:13Speaker 06

  But like, what team?

• 1:08:14Bill Simmons?

  Even I liked it.

• 1:08:15Speaker 06

  I know. What team that is great doesn't play like that? And that's why when, when these teams just put up with, you know, one or two players doing everything, I'm like, that's not sustainable. It's not going to work.

• 1:08:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was your guy Kobe, right?

• 1:08:29Speaker 06

  Well.

• 1:08:30Bill Simmons?

  In the, in game seven, 2010, he's having the worst game of his career. And then had to figure out how to help the team somehow and didn't have it.

• 1:08:38Speaker 06

  Well, you forget, sometimes you need someone to pull you and you through the hole. You know, I, I think sometimes when you're the best player, there's this notion of you, you have to do it in the big moments all the time. But like, it's usually someone else that like, you know, pulls you through the hole. And then, yeah, we'll talk about Kobe and Jalen Brunson and, you know, Tatum. But, you know, even that Celtics championship, I mean, look at all those guys that stepped up that you wouldn't have thought would be the person in those finals.

• 1:09:04Bill Simmons?

  Right. That's why I don't, I know they have to give the finals MVP. And it's helpful, like for somebody like me that loves the history of the game. It's a good snapshot of who mattered. But, you know, now they added the conference MVP. And I really do feel like it screwed up the Celtics a little bit because Jalen won both, but Tatum was the best guy on the team. And then we kind of never recovered from that.

• 1:09:27Speaker 06

  That, that, that happens a lot, actually. My, 2007, it's funny. Kathy Pondexter got the WNBA finals MVP. I mean, she deserved the 100%. But it happens where teams that, that you think that the Asia Wilsons would always win the MVP and, you know, the Breanna Stewarts and, you know, all the great players. But sometimes there's, you know, it's only that five, seven game stretch where that's all that counts.

• 1:09:54Bill Simmons?

  Um, this would happen to Tim Duncan and it happened to him in 07. I'm like, if you're the best player, I'm giving you the finals MVP.

• 1:10:01Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:10:01Bill Simmons?

  Unless this is so glaringly obvious that somebody else should have won. I'm giving it to the best player.

• 1:10:07Speaker 06

  Always. I mean, like even when LeBron was probably always the best player in every series he played in. Just give it to him. He's the best player. That's what it is.

• 1:10:17Bill Simmons?

  When, when did you become? When'd you become friends with Kobe?

• 1:10:21Speaker 06

  So, you know, we had some touch and goes in LA early in, in my high school years, different events. You know, 96, it was, you know, he was on the Lakers and I was a freshman in high school. Check, I mean, that's, that's insane. And then it was mostly more on the Olympic teams. That redeemed team in 2008 is where we, you know, we practiced a lot together before and after, the hotel, the bus rides. I think that's when we really hit it off, the way we kind of attacked the game.

• 1:10:52Bill Simmons?

  You're both sociopathic competitors. You probably loved each other.

• 1:10:55Speaker 06

  We're, we're both addicts and we kind of, um, we kind of fell in love with each other because of that. Because we understood each other. Like when other people thought, oh, you can't go, that's, you can't, you can't do it that way. Well, well, then you could do it this way and you can be like everyone else. That's how we would look at, look at it.

• 1:11:15Bill Simmons?

  What was the best thing you learned from him?

• 1:11:17Speaker 06

  God, I mean, his, his mental strength. I mean, we, we could talk about the work ethic.

• 1:11:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  But when I would watch him play, it was, that was the only thing that mattered on earth for those two hours. And if, if half the players that play basketball could have that, they would fall in love with the game. But they can't get to that point because it's, it's really hard.

• 1:11:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah, and the work ethic, like, because you see it, you always hear this story from the Olympics. When they put all the dudes together and the younger guys are with the older guys who actually know the routine and what to do. And they're kind of like.

• 1:11:54Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:11:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wait, you're getting up at five in the morning to go, to go climb the Versa climber? What's happening?

• 1:11:59Speaker 06

  Well, at a certain.

• 1:12:00Bill Simmons?

  And then you emulate it.

• 1:12:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, at a certain point, we're like, where's Kobe? You know, because we'd all get together at the lobby and the Nike suite and we look up. He's, he was always gone. He was always at the gym. He had his own driver and he'd go to the gym three hours before and then he'd leave three hours afterwards. I mean, the guy was just insane. He would find a gym, you know, we were in Beijing, found a gym everywhere we went. Just didn't matter. He was going to find a hoop.

• 1:12:23Bill Simmons?

  I mean, LeBron's like that, Brady's like that, Jordan was like that.

• 1:12:27Speaker 06

  I mean.

• 1:12:27Bill Simmons?

  It seems like you can't turn it off after your career ends because it's like you've, you were so driven like that. All right, now what do I do?

• 1:12:33Speaker 06

  Well, I think when you get, you know, in those later years in your career, it's actually the work that keeps you coming back. You get addicted to the daily routine. It's almost like it's something that you need to function.

• 1:12:47Speaker 06

  And you know, was I always a worker like that my whole career? No, like when you're young, you don't understand that. You know, you can just get up, get on the court. You don't have to stretch, lace them up. After, you know, the game's over, you do whatever you want. And as you get older, you start learning these routines and these patterns that almost become more important in the game.

• 1:13:06Bill Simmons?

  Right, the structure of how to repeat a really good effort.

• 1:13:10Speaker 06

  Over and over. And then there's.

• 1:13:12Bill Simmons?

  But nobody learns that till later.

• 1:13:13Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, well, because then there's the physical part where you actually need it. You actually need, you actually need the two hours of prepping to, I don't know, do a shoot around.

• 1:13:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:24Speaker 06

  And then that becomes.

• 1:13:26Bill Simmons?

  My daughter's a division three soccer player. She's a senior. And it wasn't until kind of this offseason that I feel like she totally got it. And she's like, I, I want to have an awesome season. I'm working out every single day. And even like she had an internship. She's like, I'm, I have to get up at six o'clock today to work out or else I'm not going to be able to work out. It was the first time, but that's, that's it. I'm sure LeBron's like that too, no matter where he is. I gotta get up, I gotta work.

• 1:13:48Speaker 06

  Without doubt. And I think that's when you really become

• 1:13:53Speaker 06

  comfortable with yourself is when, you know, you have an internship. And if you don't work out at six, you're not going to work out.

• 1:14:00Bill Simmons?

  So you gotta do it.

• 1:14:00Speaker 06

  You have to do it.

• 1:14:03Bill Simmons?

  How, when you retired, did you feel like you had more years left? Or you stayed too long? Or you left at the exact right time?

• 1:14:11Speaker 06

  No, I think I just, I hit the nail right on the head. I probably could have played a couple more years at the level I was playing. I feel like I, you know, but at that point, there comes these little moments where you'd rather be somewhere else.

• 1:14:25Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:26Speaker 06

  You know?

• 1:14:26Bill Simmons?

  But I mean, you, I mean, counter, you missed out on some of the great stuff that's happened the last two years. I feel like you're one of the people that built the league and kept it alive. You know? And now it's actually like, has real momentum.

• 1:14:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, but you know what? I feel like I gained all the things that they'll never have.

• 1:14:43Bill Simmons?

  Like what?

• 1:14:45Speaker 06

  Like world travel. I feel like I can, at this point as an adult, I can be in any room with any human being on earth and be able to function. I actually live a normal life for as much as, you know, as many things that's come my way, I don't walk around with a bodyguard. I go to the grocery store. You know what I mean? Like, I haven't become a person that can't function in normal life. And I actually kind of love it. I don't take that for granted. And, you know, and going forward, it's all the things we wanted, right? More coverage, more money, but with all that, you know, it comes a different type of lifestyle that all these women are living differently now.

• 1:15:30Speaker 06

  Like after games, we would all get together and go to a restaurant and have dinner. Like, you know, now it's just become, you play, you get on a plane, you fly somewhere, you get, you know, which is great for performance, but for lifestyle wise, I don't know how much fun they're having.

• 1:15:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, when you have more success, that brings scrutiny and backlash.

• 1:15:51Speaker 06

  More money, more problems.

• 1:15:53Bill Simmons?

  And then people using you, I always call it the volleyball, because people, something, they'll just drift in, they just want to hit the volleyball back and forth with whatever they're arguing about. And it'd be like, oh, let's do it with WNBA. And they just bring it in, they hit it back and forth, then they can watch the games.

• 1:16:06Speaker 06

  Well, it's been funny with the WNBA, because, you know, it's been a lot of new media, which has been great, obviously. This is what we've always wanted. And I've always said this, where, you know, for a long time, it was always fluffy, positive media. And that's not real, right? You have to, you have to find people that, you know, counterpoint and make these arguments. It's what we've always wanted. But, you know, it's a lot of people who haven't followed the league in a long time. So there's, they say things without context, and there's backstories to everything. I mean, you know, you can't, you can't make a comment about the NBA without the last 30 years of knowledge that you know.

• 1:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:16:42Speaker 06

  Because each thing kind of is the result of something that happened maybe 10 years ago, whether it's, you know, CBA, or what happened with the team, or players, there's a lot of backstory. And, you know, I think the more we acknowledge that and the more we study that, well then, you know, the commentary could become educated and a little bit more, you know, intelligent instead of, you know, so visceral, like, the fouls. I mean, it's basketball. Everyone fouls the shit out of each other. You know what I mean? Like, it's, yeah, that's what it is. You're trying to score, I'm trying to stop you.

• 1:17:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just wait till the playoffs. Whatever, whichever guard, really good guard on whatever team, gets to the last four, final four, whatever. Olivia Miles, when she's going to the basket, it's gonna be a little different.

• 1:17:30Speaker 06

  Well, we know this though, you know? And I think as fans, we have to go back to the competition part. I think that is the one thing that, you know, with all the rule changes, and it's kind of strange, it's like, the more money you make, you know this, they try to shelter you a little bit more. I mean, we were making pennies and we were, we were just, we would run through a wall. Hamstrings, back injuries, broken hands. It was like, why are we doing this? We're not making any money.

• 1:18:03Bill Simmons?

  You left. You left and nobody blamed you. You were like, why am I doing this? I'll go make more money somewhere else. This isn't worth it.

• 1:18:09Speaker 06

  The last time we chatted, I was in my living room in Russia.

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:18:15Speaker 06

  And we were talking about the Warriors. That was the last time, yeah. And I was in Russia and I was making the money that I wanted to make.

• 1:18:21Bill Simmons?

  And, well, that's why I think people who actually care about this and want to see the league continue to prosper, when they do stuff like when they did the three expansion teams, which I hated.

• 1:18:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Bill Simmons?

  I just don't think there's enough talent for it. You mentioned how like, yeah, the points are going to be up because you're going to have nights where you're just playing a shit team. But that's, when you over-expand too fast, that's what happens.

• 1:18:42Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, it happens in every league, right? I mean, have-

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  Every league. We have all his, 80 years of history.

• 1:18:47Speaker 06

  I mean, half the nights, I put on, you know, NBA League Pass, and you can give me front row tickets to 99% of those games, I wouldn't go.

• 1:18:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:18:56Speaker 06

  I mean, it's just a lot of bad teams, a lot of, and we talk about, and I'll go back, we talk about, there's not enough talent for the rosters, there's not enough talent to coach. How about coaches?

• 1:19:10Bill Simmons?

  And how about officials?

• 1:19:12Speaker 06

  Well, that's another conversation. Yeah. What league doesn't have bad officiating? I mean, you watch the NFL and you're, you know, oh, that's a terrible flag, you know? The only, the only sport that has it right is tennis, because it's robots.

• 1:19:27Bill Simmons?

  Do you, do you, anybody jump out, out of these younger people that you're watching? Like, wow, that's one of the most special women's basketball players I've ever seen.

• 1:19:38Speaker 06

  Well, I think Olivia Miles is a special talent.

• 1:19:41Bill Simmons?

  I've been trying to tell people.

• 1:19:42Speaker 06

  She's, you know, I think she was a little under the radar because she did leave Notre Dame and she went to TCU, which was a little bit of a smaller school. But, you know, this kid is doing stuff that we, you know, she has Kyrie-like handles. She can shoot the basketball. She's, you know, she can get in the lane. And I always said, if you can shoot and you can pass, you can play forever. So when I watch her, when I watch Paige, you know, when I watch Paige play, I see the complete package on and off the court.

• 1:20:15Bill Simmons?

  On Olivia, you can see it, how she's defended, which I think is always a good, a good litmus test of how good somebody is. You're watching, she has a head of steam.

• 1:20:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:25Bill Simmons?

  And the people are going backwards, and she has everybody on a rope. And then you mentioned Kyrie earlier. She has that Kyrie move when he sticks his right arm all the way out and holds that kind of head of the defender and is able to put the layup off the glass with the, with like a nice soft one. She just has it.

• 1:20:41Speaker 06

  She is tremendous. And I mean, to be put in a position where, you know, you go to a team that, you know, they have everything, you know, roster wise. I mean, what is an incredible opportunity for her to be on a team that is expected to win a championship? Obviously, we know what, you know, their coaching staff's like, and, you know, the pedigree of players that they have. I mean, it's the, it's a perfect scenario for her to really, you know, be in the driver's seat in this league for like the next 10 to 12 years. And then, but when I see Paige, I just see, I see everything with Paige. You know, a lot of times, you have the player that can control the locker room, necessarily doesn't have the talent and, you know, have that, that weight when they say things to their teammates. She has both.

• 1:21:26Speaker 06

  I mean, she walks into a room and everything just changes. Everything just changes when Paige is in the room. And you can see it with her team.

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  I think that's a dangerous first round team.

• 1:21:37Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:21:38Bill Simmons?

  Like, I watched a game when they beat Indiana, like 10 days ago or whatever, and they just, both guards were going, the rekey got really going.

• 1:21:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Bill Simmons?

  That's kind of a nightmare matchup. It reminds me of in the mid 90s, in the playoffs, when it'd be best of five, and you could just go against the wrong, you play like the Suns, and all of a sudden, you're down 2-1 in a series because two of their guards got hot. But I wouldn't want to play them. And I gotta say, I really like the way Indiana's playing too.

• 1:22:02Speaker 06

  I mean-

• 1:22:03Bill Simmons?

  It felt like, it felt like the, all the outside stuff was suffocating, especially Katelyn. Just didn't seem like she was having fun playing basketball. And then the last, last month or so, I keep saying, they remind me of those Nash Suns teams, where they just go, go, go. Everything's built around her, they have two awesome guards. I don't know who's going to win the title, honestly.

• 1:22:23Speaker 06

  I don't know, but if Katelyn and Kelsey keep playing like this, they're going to be the hardest out in the playoffs. I mean, they're going to be so hard to guard in the playoffs. I mean, what Katelyn doing is right now is just unheard of. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about what she's doing.

• 1:22:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Speaker 06

  You know, I've always said this about her, and I've always admired this about her. And you alluded to it, there's just so much stuff around her. But the minute she walks onto the court, it all goes away for her. You know? It kind of all goes away, and there's a different thing that drives her on the court. I'm not sure what it is, but man, when she gets going, and the numbers that she's putting up, and doing it and winning, right? Like, that's, the whole point is to do it to make your team better. And she does it every single night. You know, and then, and now that we get to watch them all play on the national team, so it'll be fun.

• 1:23:17Bill Simmons?

  All right, so you're not going to believe it, but I didn't agree with the world championships decision either. I thought they had, you have so much momentum from the season, you're just stopping?

• 1:23:25Speaker 06

  Should I call Sue? Should I tell Sue?

• 1:23:27Bill Simmons?

  Does she agree?

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, it's funny, we've never, we've never, we've never had a break for world championships. It's only been for Olympics. This is the first time, I know, this is the first time we've ever done it. I know, it's, you know, but that's the life, you know, the WNBA's always lived. We've always had to live in these, you know, different worlds where other things take precedent, people miss training camp, we've got to stop the league for the Olympics, and now it's happening again for FIBA. You know, I think we're coming to a point where the WNBA will finally take priority and, you know, hopefully soon. But yeah, I hate the break, it's the worst, you know? It's terrible. It's terrible for the teams that come back and don't have shit to play for. And it's terrible for teams who are trying to get to the third, to the fourth seed, you know?

• 1:24:14Speaker 06

  Like, it's just, it's tough all around, it's kind of something we've always done. And, you know, as a player for a long time, you kind of just, whatever jersey you put on, that's what you do. You immerse yourself for that two, three weeks with USA Basketball, and then the minute you get back to, you know, Vegas, Indiana, Dallas, Phoenix, put that jersey back on and you give it a go.

• 1:24:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't love it.

• 1:24:39Speaker 06

  I mean.

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  Certain teams had momentum, certain teams were losing momentum. I don't know, because there's a little rock, paper, scissors with the league this year. It's been fun to gamble on, actually, but Golden State's like the defensive team.

• 1:24:51Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:24:52Bill Simmons?

  Vegas has Asia, but the guard's a little weak. Indiana's super fun up and down the play. Dallas is like the wild card. And kind of who plays who? And then the Liberty, I don't.

• 1:25:03Speaker 06

  Well.

• 1:25:03Bill Simmons?

  They've been so banged up all year, I don't know what to make of them.

• 1:25:05Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, who would want them to play them as the eight seed? That's kind of what we just talked about. That's a crap shoot, too. You play, you play New York as the eight seed? I mean, what a reward for being the one seed.

• 1:25:19Bill Simmons?

  Can we talk about this Asia Wilson thing really quickly?

• 1:25:22Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:23Bill Simmons?

  I don't like it because you were my goat. But if she wins five straight MVPs, I don't know what to do with this information now.

• 1:25:30Speaker 06

  I mean, you do what you do with it. I mean, that to be MVP five times.

• 1:25:36Bill Simmons?

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:25:37Speaker 06

  It's ridiculous. No one does it. I mean, who did it? Did Dream even have five?

• 1:25:41Bill Simmons?

  No, nobody, nobody in the NBA has done this. Not one, not one NBA player, no NFL players, nobody, nobody does this.

• 1:25:48Speaker 06

  You know, I mean, how could you not say she's the goat if she wins five in a row? I mean, even with four in a row, it's kind of like no one's ever done that either, the WNBA. You know, and, and, and to do that and win. You know, I think that's been the most impressive thing is she's carried. Obviously, early, they were just loaded. They had tremendous young talent. And now, you know, she's had to carry a big load of it. And but the thing with Asia that's so impressive, I've never seen a player. And I'm always, I always have these deep conversations with other basketball minds that I trust. And I'm like, you are who you are. There's not a lot of players that, you know, I met earlier on in my career that just became a great passer, a great decision maker, or a great shooter. Yeah, you can improve a little bit, but usually who you are is who you are.

• 1:26:30Speaker 06

  When I saw Asia in college, I would have never thought she would have got to this point, to be honest. And that's just a credit to her, being in the gym. You know, people always say, well, you know, during the summer, I want to add this. She actually did it. Every summer, every offseason, she's added something. That's really hard to do.

• 1:26:49Bill Simmons?

  And when people are like, oh, she could do this, this, or this, and they guess wrong every time, and she just either goes by them, or shoots over them, or does it, and just gets whatever shot she wants every single time.

• 1:26:57Speaker 06

  Well, when I say someone's going to average 30 or maybe even 35, it's going to be her. I mean, no one, literally, she is a matchup nightmare for every single team. There's maybe like two or three players in the whole league that could, you know, make it tough for her.

• 1:27:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't even know, is it a smaller person who's like physical? Is it somebody with more size, so she can't? I don't even know what the answer is.

• 1:27:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I guess it's multiple, you know? Coaches love that. We can't give them a steady diet. I don't know.

• 1:27:27Bill Simmons?

  I would try to run them up and down and get in a shootout with them would be my move.

• 1:27:31Speaker 06

  Well, you know, and a lot of times when you're the best player, you usually play, you usually guard the shittiest player on the other team. So it's not like you'd get her in foul trouble either.

• 1:27:40Bill Simmons?

  So you think, it sounds like you think Minnesota is going to win.

• 1:27:43Speaker 06

  I mean, Minnesota's strong. If he comes back from this world championship at the level that she's used to playing, which is pretty much unstoppable on the court with her and Miles and the way Kayla McBride shoots the ball. I mean, that, that's a tough, tough team to beat. And home court advantage.

• 1:27:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I always judge it by the shots in the last four minutes. Do I like the shots you're getting? That's what I always did with the NBA. I always liked their shots. I always feel like they have all these options late. And if worse comes to worse, Miles would just go by somebody and create something.

• 1:28:13Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, we always said, there's nothing like having shooting and passing on the court. You know, if you have an abundance of that, you can run whatever play you damn want. Because the game of basketball, all it's about is getting the advantage. Like you said, you just need an advantage somewhere to create. And a lot of teams don't have a lot of those players. So the offense gets really hard and, you know, I mean, we see that with the NBA where, you know, there's teams that just can't get good shots at the end of the games.

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• 1:30:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, so you're in this UConn documentary that Apple did, and Gino's a big piece of it. Polarizing guy. If you're just watching from afar, very easy to come to the conclusion, I don't like that guy. I think he's annoying. Yet, everybody that plays for him loves him and defends him like they would like their uncle or their dad or whatever. So make the Gino defense for me.

• 1:30:26Speaker 06

  It's funny because I watched the documentary, obviously. And I wasn't sure, because you know, sometimes when you watch things, you don't always get the full story. And in a documentary, you can't always tell the full story. You only have a certain amount. And it's funny because I watched him and I liked him even more. So that makes me a little bit of a psycho. He's, he is a mastermind, Bill. He doesn't have to say one, I mean, if you think about the three hours of the documentary, how much basketball did they talk? Not a lot, right? It's not like they were breaking down plays and like late game, you know, scenarios. I mean, this man just knows how to get you to do things that a normal person wouldn't do.

• 1:31:08Bill Simmons?

  And everyone stays loyal to him after.

• 1:31:10Speaker 06

  Well, because you understand.

• 1:31:12Bill Simmons?

  No matter what happened.

• 1:31:13Speaker 06

  And it's funny because there's people on the documentary that didn't have a great relationship with him, you know, throughout those four years. And to be honest, the first two and a half years, I mean, we would just go at it. We would just butt heads all the time. Because he just will not, he, he will, he will press you until there's nothing left. And then you have to build yourself back up. And then you have to, you have to figure out if you really want to be here and if you really want to do it. And he was like that from day one to the last day I was at Connecticut.

• 1:31:46Bill Simmons?

  There was a documentary about Tennessee and Pat Summitt in the early 2000s, I want to say. I think it was on HBO. And it was a big template for what we wanted to do for 30 for 30, because it was like, we're going in, you're going to learn about Pat Summitt and this team. And it was so riveting. But my big takeaway, I still, I don't even know if it's online anymore, was just how intense it was day to day with her and the players and the emotions and the games to an end, people come in, they're like sobbing, it was like game 16 of a season, like six, six girls sobbing around their lockers. And she would come in and, and it was just fascinating to watch somebody with that much control over their universe. And it seems like he's the same way.

• 1:32:26Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. I remember watching that one, actually. Remember she, she iced her ankle for like 48 straight hours? Because she rolled the ankle, she slept in the locker room.

• 1:32:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah, it was the first time I ever saw anything like that. I were like, holy shit.

• 1:32:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, they weren't, there was a lot of. You know what? Those, um, there's a time in your life, I think, where you can handle that. And it's definitely when you're in college.

• 1:32:54Bill Simmons?

  When you're young and dumb.

• 1:32:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, when you're young and dumb and you don't know any better, and you're searching for things that you can hold on to, to make, to make you a better player, better teammate, or whatever it may be. But I think those days are over. I don't think you can do that anymore. So it means even more. Like, I think when you watch a documentary like that, you're watching something that I don't think you can do anymore. It, it, it doesn't exist anymore. I mean, you definitely can't do it with the pros. Right? Like, can even, can even like do 10% of that anymore?

• 1:33:26Bill Simmons?

  You guys are making 30, 40, 50, 60 million a year. And the moment they're unhappy, they could just push their way out.

• 1:33:32Speaker 06

  Get out, get out.

• 1:33:33Bill Simmons?

  That's why we have so much coaching upheaval every year in the NBA. I think Spoelstra is the oldest, Spoelstra is, I think, the oldest coach now.

• 1:33:40Speaker 06

  The longest tenured, yeah.

• 1:33:42Bill Simmons?

  Kerr's second, and Joe Missoula might be in the top five.

• 1:33:45Speaker 06

  And it's, it's really funny because you, you actually, before you go there, he walks into your living room and he tells you exactly what he's going to do. And you're kind of like, okay, that sounds good, which sounds terrible if you really think about it, you know? And then you get there and it's, you know, it's boot camp. It's hard. Everything's hard. Every, every single time you walk into the gym, it is mentally and physically taxing. There was no day where you would walk in and you would let your guard down. You were always in fight or flight. Like, that was just, that was the type of environment that he created.

• 1:34:24Bill Simmons?

  Does it bother you that UConn women's basketball, just in general, is regarded in America the same way kind of the Duke men's team has become? Where you're like the team people root against because you had so much success? That's just, you're a lot now, you're the Yankees, you're Duke basketball, like, you're the Patriots of Belichick. You're just in that mix now.

• 1:34:44Speaker 06

  I mean, I guess that's what happens when you win a lot.

• 1:34:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:47Speaker 06

  You know, everyone loves the, the underdog story until you become the person that wins all the time. And then it's like, is this fair for the sport? Is parity bet? No one ever liked basketball when there was parity. I liked basketball when it was Duke, when it was UConn, when it was the Bulls, you know? When it was the Patriots, when it was the Lakers in the 2000s. That's when I loved sport the most. You know, the Yankees, when you have these dominant, amazing teams. And it's, people, I think people take for granted how hard it is to do that. How hard is to get all those players on the same page? I mean, we've seen all these super teams that just explode. Because it takes a certain character, of certain personality, certain coach.

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  And you don't have to be best friends either. Right?

• 1:35:33Speaker 06

  With who?

• 1:35:34Bill Simmons?

  Brady Belichick, we're six Super Bowls together. It's okay that they're not going to go vacationing in Lake Tahoe.

• 1:35:40Speaker 06

  Well, I, I, I think the, the whole being friends with your coach thing is a crock of shit. Like, I think that's what's made, you know, the environment of coaching and players these days so up and down. You want to be my friend, you want to be the, like, I don't need a friend, I need a coach. No, I have friends, I have friends, I have friends, I go and talk to and talk shit with. Like, that was the one thing with the coaches that I could play for that always brought out the best in me. We had a personal relationship, but we weren't friends. They weren't worried about my well-being, you know, every single day. I mean, that was the beauty of Coach Westhead. Coach Westhead would walk into practice, we'd practice for two hours, and then we wouldn't see him ever again.

• 1:36:22Speaker 06

  We would, we would get on the plane together, we'd get off the plane, and then we would never see him again, until shoot around. You know, there wasn't this, let's go get coffee, let's go talk about the game plan. There was a separation of church and state.

• 1:36:37Bill Simmons?

  I wonder, like, is this part of the social media era and just in general, well-being and all the, all the mental health stuff that's happened over the last 10 years? And awareness for all that? And just coaches screaming at players just doesn't seem like it fits in anymore.

• 1:36:51Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, you know, back then, you'd just walk into the gym and you'd practice. Now, you know, the last two or three years in the WNBA, you know, there would be a coach there. So, Dee, how do you feel from a scale of one to 10? I'm like, what the, I'm fucking 42, I feel like shit, leave me alone. Like, leave me alone, let me talk about, get, talk about, you know?

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  They want to talk about my feelings?

• 1:37:15Speaker 06

  And it's, it's almost been, it's almost worse because all they do is talk about the feelings that they do have.

• 1:37:21Speaker 06

  You know, it's like more feelings and more, all these feelings and, you know, I've always been, you know, I'm, you know, old Italian family, just shut up and do the work. Figure the feelings out later, like, we've, you know? And I don't think you can do that anymore because, you know, once you let the genie out of the bottle, you can put it back in.

• 1:37:39Bill Simmons?

  What do you do competitively now to, to get your fix?

• 1:37:42Speaker 06

  So I love-

• 1:37:43Bill Simmons?

  It's gotta be something.

• 1:37:43Speaker 06

  Tennis and golf are my, like, go-tos. Like, I love tennis. I played tennis as a, as a little kid and I always loved it. Um, and then I just, you know, basketball got in the way of that. And then, um, and then I love the golf. It's the, the, the two things I, I really do enjoy.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  Tennis. Doubles or singles?

• 1:38:02Speaker 06

  Singles.

• 1:38:03Bill Simmons?

  Singles?

• 1:38:04Speaker 06

  Singles, yeah.

• 1:38:04Bill Simmons?

  Head to head?

• 1:38:05Speaker 06

  I mean-

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  Mono a mono.

• 1:38:06Speaker 06

  I, I don't need, you know, like, I've played a team sport for a long time. I just want it to be me. I don't want to worry about someone else's feelings.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Forehand or backhand?

• 1:38:14Speaker 06

  Forehand. Backhand, I need a-

• 1:38:16Bill Simmons?

  Forehand, so you're loading up on the forehand?

• 1:38:18Speaker 06

  Western forehand grip and I just let it go. Actually, I have a-

• 1:38:23Bill Simmons?

  I wish there was like a celebrity tennis tournament. I bet, I bet it'd be fun to watch you in that.

• 1:38:27Speaker 06

  I think the US Open, John McEnroe does one, um, every year. I'm still not where I want to be to play in it. Kind of like in golf where they go to Lake Tahoe and getting there.

• 1:38:38Bill Simmons?

  All right, Dana Torese. A pleasure, as always.

• 1:38:42Speaker 06

  Bill, you're the best.

• 1:38:42Bill Simmons?

  Will you come back during the playoffs?

• 1:38:44Speaker 06

  Always, let's do it.

• 1:38:45Bill Simmons?

  All right, you're gonna watch, right?

• 1:38:48Speaker 06

  You know, that's another, that's another thing.

• 1:38:50Bill Simmons?

  Sort of.

• 1:38:50Speaker 06

  You know what happens when you retire, Bill? It's like you, you, all you, you watch the game and all I see is mistakes.

• 1:38:57Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you become one of those people?

• 1:38:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know, I know. That's why I like to watch tennis and soccer because I, I can watch it as a fan. I'm still in that threshold where I watch it and I'm still watching players I played against. So maybe another year. But yeah, I'll, I'll come on with you, Bill. Always.

• 1:39:13Bill Simmons?

  All right. Good to see you.

• 1:39:14Speaker 06

  All right.

• 1:39:15Bill Simmons?

  A pleasure as always. Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Todd and Diana and Gahow and Eduardo. Don't forget, rewatchables, Aliens is up and I'm going to be back on my podcast on Thursday, hopefully, with a, a special guest who comes once a year. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. We'll see, we'll see if it happens. Anyway, see you Thursday.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Get them problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESSET. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 8778HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  Having uncontrolled eosinophilic esophagitis or EOE can mean you're stuck in many ways, like cutting your food into tiny pieces.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  Or stuck chewing food for a long time.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  Dupixent Dupilumab, a prescription medicine for patients one year and older weighing at least 33 pounds, can help with that. It's a breakthrough treatment that can reduce inflammation in the esophagus and improve swallowing.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  How about this? Dupixent is not a steroid. It proactively treats EOE so you can get ahead of it.

• 1:41:09Speaker 03

  Severe allergic reactions, including skin reactions, can occur. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or wheezing or swelling of your face, mouth, tongue or throat. Tell your doctor of newer worsening joint aches and pain or a parasitic infection or asthma. Don't change or stop other treatments without talking to your doctor.

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Feeling stuck with EOE? Start treating with Dupixent. Talk to your gastroenterologist or allergist today about Dupixent. Learn more at dupixent.com or call 1-844-DUPIXENT.

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