An NBA Playoff Preview With Doc Rivers, Plus Nick Khan on WrestleMania 42 and the Next Big WWE Stars

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to react to the Warriors taking down the Clippers to keep their playoff hopes alive, Wemby and the Spurs’ improvement this season, and the Bucks' season (5:17). Then, Nick Khan joins to talk about the future of WWE, WrestleMania 42, and much more (01:27:18)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Doc Rivers and Nick Khan Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, now playing in theaters nationwide.

• 0:41Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I had new rewatchables that went up on Monday. We did Basic Instinct. Kindergarten Cop is coming next Monday. We also launched a brand new narrative podcast called Legata. First two episodes are up. Please check it out. I was involved with this one. If you like Miami Vice, Scarface, the 80s, cocaine shows. This has it all, so please go check it out. I have a big podcast coming up. Doc Rivers, a dramatic return, and we're going to talk a lot of hoops with him. We're going to talk about the award stuff, the season, the best player he saw in person, playoff matchups, what happened with the Bucks season, Giannis. We go into all of it. And normally that would have been the podcast, but Nick Khan,

• 1:26Bill Simmons?

  a very important person at WWE in boxing, bull riding, all kinds of things, and somebody I've known for a long time. He came over and we did a wide ranging talk on a whole bunch of things. So this is a massive podcast. Wanted to mention, the playoffs are starting this weekend. I do have FanDuel bet a little bit later, but I really wanted to take an upset. I love taking an upset every year. Every year there is an upset, and I don't see the matchup for the upset this weekend. Minnesota and Atlanta seem to be the two live ones to jump on. And I don't, I just think Denver and the Knicks are going to advance. The one I think is the most interesting for, for, for an underdog pick,

• 2:11Bill Simmons?

  if you wanted to get nuts, is the Lakers.

• 2:17Bill Simmons?

  Lakers in seven is 10 to one Lakers in six is 22 to one and the Lakers to win this series is plus 530. I just feel like we're gonna get Luca back before the end of this series. And if even if it's 2-1 after three, the longer that series goes on, the think the worse I think it is for Houston. But I just think the odds are a little out of whack. I don't think Houston should be minus 750 against anybody. But we're probably gonna go chalk for round one, but that's the only one I would look at. The other thing I wanted to mention, we got word today that Cade and Luca are now eligible for first team All-NBA, or second team All-NBA, or MVP, or whatever you want, because their appeal process worked.

• 3:01Bill Simmons?

  So I'm just gonna give you my ballot with the adjusted Luca. First team, Jokic, Wemby, Luca, SGA, Jalen Brown. Second team, Durin, Kawhi, Mitchell, Cade, Brunson. Third team, Chet, KD, Jalen Johnson, Murray, Maxey, is what I'm going with for All-NBA. I have Luca as number four MVP, Jalen five, Wemby three. And I have not handed in my ballot yet. And I know I said on Tuesday, I was voting SGA for MVP. And we cut a social clip out of it. And I am just agonizingly talking about how I don't understand why I'm not voting for Jokic when he had one of the greatest offensive seasons I've ever seen in the greatest of

• 3:45Bill Simmons?

  his career. And yet also laid out the case why I think the vote has to be SGA. Blame the NBA, not me, because I should have already sent my ballot in. This appeal process dragged it out. I have not sent in my ballot yet. I don't know when the deadline is. I still don't know who I'm voting for for MVP. I've changed my mind. I've had a conscious uncoupling with my original SGA thing. I just, over and over again, keep thinking, what in 10 years, what am I gonna think? Am I gonna regret doing this? Because there's been a couple MVP picks I've regretted over the years. I'm just not ready to make a pick yet. I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry. I already said I was voting for SGA.

• 4:28Bill Simmons?

  I apologize to the OKC fans and SGA and his family. I don't know what I'm gonna do and I'm just gonna think about it for the next two days. But it's up in the air. So that's what I got for you. All right, we're gonna take a break. Bring in Pearl Jam, talk basketball, Doc Rivers, stick around for Nick Khan, really good, action-packed, fun podcast next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same-game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win.

• 5:12Bill Simmons?

  Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat.

• 5:53Bill Simmons?

  All right, late afternoon Thursday. My friend Doc Rivers is here. We're back.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  We're back. We're back. I did a little two and a half year segue. You know, I told you that, but just gonna make your ego just humongous still. But I don't know how many times, I've even had guys like, hey, I like you as a coach, but I really like you on the podcast with Bill. You gotta get back. And I'm like, okay, okay, I got you. I hear you. So, so I'm back.

• 6:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm taking advantage of you during the playoffs, at least a couple of times. Well, the best thing is getting you right out of you just coaching. You went against all these guys. You went against all these players. I want to go, we could talk about the Bucks stuff much later. I, first I gotta talk about Curry because you have real ties to that because your daughter married into the Curry family.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:41Bill Simmons?

  Special emotional ties. I was there last night. I took my son who had never seen, you know, a real Steph Curry stakes game. He'd never been in the, in the house for that. And the whole time I'm going, you know, they're down eight, they're down six, they're down 10. I'm like, Curry's gonna make a run. The Clippers crowd is gonna get really nervous and it's gonna be awesome. Just wait. And then he does it.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  That's because you're a Clipper fan and, and, and you've seen, you've seen that. Like I feel, I'm saying this because I've experienced it. I could feel the anxiety through the TV.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  From the crowd. Like you can, you can literally feel it as, and it was great too, because for most of the game, you didn't hear the Golden State crowd at all. And then all of a sudden, Al Horford makes a couple of those threes. Cause he's, as good as Steph was, and he was amazing, Al Horford saved that game.

• 7:37Bill Simmons?

  Yes, he did. And he, and Porzingis kept them hanging around. He was good too. There was a little Gi Santos, Gi Santos in there. And then Curry did his stuff. And it was interesting that the way the, the way the Intuit is where they have the wall and it's all real Clipper fans. Right? So the whole side of the arena is all Clipper fans. The other side of the arena was basically all Golden State fans because they bought in on that side.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from.

• 8:03Bill Simmons?

  It was, it was, it was to my right facing the court. And so Curry gets going and when he hits that shot with 50 seconds left, which you knew was coming. And the way he goes with Draymond now, it's like they have this crazy ESP thing. And he hits it. People in my section left and they didn't leave because they wanted to beat the traffic. They left because they were like, I've been doing this with the Clippers my whole life. I know how this game's gonna end. I might as well leave now. It's like they were escaping like a horror movie house.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  It was rough. Is it, you know, it was such an interesting game. Cause there was section of the back and forth. Callie was at the game, my daughter.

• 8:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  And, uh, and I text her at the beginning of the game, oh, this is the rough start for Golden State. And then at halftime, I said, oh, they're hanging around. And then my daughter's last text was in the fourth quarter with about eight minutes left. Said, if they hang around long enough.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  That Seth didn't see the finish line, he's gonna take it.

• 8:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  And that is exactly what happened, you know, uh, it was an interesting game because I really thought there are three or four times where Golden State was close to letting go of the rope. You know, like it felt like, you know, man, they're trying, uh, and then I'm telling you the, the four threes that Al Horford made.

• 9:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  It just changed the light. It changed the light. And once it got to five and three, you knew what was headed. Now I will say this, um, and, and Draymond, um, you know, I've gotten in more like discussions about Draymond. It's, it's amazing how many, uh, discussions I've gotten into about Draymond because I've, I'm, I have fought for him being a Hall of Famer. His whole, for, for five years now, like Draymond's a Hall of Famer, uh, to me, yes. And, and you hear people, well, he averages, what if he was on another team? What if, he's a, he's a straight winner.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Uh, forget all the other stuff, you know, um, in, in last night's game, like he was, his defense was, was next worldly. Um, I was surprised. I thought Kawhi would be more aggressive and all that stuff, but I actually thought at times he was. I mean, fighting to get to ball every possession, getting bumped up the floor. I mean, it takes a toll. Uh, Kawhi probably very rarely fights or plays against someone that's bigger and stronger than him for a whole game. And I thought the game took a toll, uh, the, uh, on, on Kawhi, and I thought it was Draymond's doing.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  So, uh, I don't think I have to make the case anymore at the last night's game, uh, because I thought Draymond's, it, it just shows you how important, you know, we, we, we, we factor in offense so much, Bill, and there's so many like Hall of Fame defensive role players. Um, and, and Draymond's the case. Dennis Rodman is one, you know, there, there's certain guys that can do what they do at a Hall of Fame level. And, you know, Draymond deserves his flowers.

• 11:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was interesting watching it in person because he was doing that from the first minute.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Bill Simmons?

  And he was so intense and so crazy that I was saying to my son, like, I actually think it's 50 50. He gets thrown out of this game like he's too. He's too fired up and it was like he was testing the reps early to see how far he could go yelling at them, intimidating them. Uh, but he was really wearing down Kawhi and I thought Kawhi was tired at the end of the game because he doesn't normally play minutes like that.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  No, and that heart minute, it's not throughout and, and, and if you want to be a great defender in the NBA, you have to be stubborn as hell. You have to be hard headed as hell because at the beginning of that game, Kawhi was kicking his butt.

• 11:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Kawhi was scoring, he was in Draymond and what I loved about it is Draymond never waver. It's almost like, okay, great. You score, keep doing it. Okay, you scored again. Keep doing it. I'm gonna be right here.

• 12:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  And by the end of the game, it was, it's like, I guess I would be like fighting Muhammad Ali, uh, after the 5,000th gap.

• 12:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You, you, you just, you're, you're exhausted and you wear it out. And that's how it felt like, uh, you know, Draymond just kept jabbing away, kept jabbing away, kept jabbing. And then by the end, Kawhi was worn out, you know, and, and it felt that way.

• 12:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know, you talk about the great defenders of all time. Draymond gets in your personal space in a really unique way and he takes these little steps to stay with you. And Kawhi was trying to like almost move backward and get away with them and, and Draymond just follows him. And I was thinking like, how many guys like that in the his, because the best two guys I've ever seen perimeter defenders are Pippen and Kawhi ironically. Um, Draymond's like just a whiff under there, but I still think for the non centers, he's gotta be one of the five or six best non center defenders ever, right?

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Ever, for sure. I, I do think Dennis Rodman.

• 13:05Bill Simmons?

  Rodman's the third one. Yeah, yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he would be, he would be the other one. Like he.

• 13:09Bill Simmons?

  Would you put Iggy Dalla in there?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  No, because he was more of an offensive player when he first started.

• 13:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  You know, so I, I would not, but you know, I remember Dennis Rodman playing and I was, and I actually used to say this. I'd rather have Pippen guarding than Rodman. And, and that's, you know, that's a hell of a statement because neither, neither one of them, your day's not going to go well either way.

• 13:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Uh, but they both were just, just gritty and, and Dennis is more, Draymond's more like Dennis because Dennis got under your skin.

• 13:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  And just scarred the hell out of you.

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's good. He's probably fourth on that list, but it's a good, really good list. If you're doing the non-perimeter. So Curry, it was, you know, watching him, I don't think he's healthy. First of all, I think he's probably 85% I would say, and kept readjusting his knee, which is a sign. There's a couple like hard drives he did where you wa- and I don't know if the TV was picking this up the same day, but just watching his body language, you can really pick stuff up during the fouls when there's stoppages and the eyes aren't on the players.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Bill Simmons?

  And you could just see him like kinda stepping on it, seeing what hurt.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  That's how we got in the conversation. I text Callie and I say, Callie, is Steph okay?

• 14:25Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Because you remember that drive, he had to pull hard. He actually left the game and went back to the locker room. Yeah. I was worried. Actually, he didn't come back for a while and I'm thinking, is he coming back? Um, and then when he came back, he missed a couple of layups. Uh, he definitely was laboring.

• 14:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  But it just, I mean, it just tells you how these guys are built. And I always say these guys, meaning the one percenters. And the rest of the league is not, um, because I don't know where he went in the third quarter. But he came out in the third quarter and he looked different. He was playing his life. It's like the light bulb that came back on. And maybe because the Clippers didn't put the game out of reach. And he saw that, man, we can get this. But even when you see that, very few people can reach what he did. He was amazing in the second half. Uh, and it was always, there's certain guys, when you watch, you say, man, that's beautiful.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  How they play. He plays, he plays a beautiful game. That last, that last play should be studied because it's a misdirection football play. You know, he throws the ball and goes right, snaps back left. Um, by going over the top, Brook kind of picks off the guy guarding, uh, Steph. And so if you're watching, the guy guarding Steph was going under Brook. So he couldn't get back to him. And then when he steps back and makes the shot, you knew it was going in. Um, but to get to it, you know, like, and listen, Bill, if I had a ball, if I was in a game and I did that, I would surprise the team because they were like.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  But the whole, everyone knew, but Draymond and Steph, I mean, they knew exactly and you still couldn't stop it. It just tells you how great he is.

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, I mean, it's stupid to say, but winning is a skill.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  It is.

• 16:21Bill Simmons?

  I thought that's why they won the 22 title. I don't think they necessarily had a better team than Boston, but they just kind of like, oh, you're gonna leave this hanging here for us? Alright, we'll take it. And Curry just took it, which I think, you know, I, I don't know where, he's right for historically for me, when I have my pyramid that I do every year. And there's like this group of him and West and Kobe that are all next to each other. And I think they're very, they have to be in the, in the clump together. And it's like, the nine, 10, 11 range of the best players of all time. And each for their generation, they were the guy, right? And I don't, I don't even know how you calculate who was more important than who. But that thing with-

• 17:01Speaker 01

  It's tough. It's tough.

• 17:03Bill Simmons?

  The thing with Curry though, that I don't, even West was like Mr. Clutch. Kobe had a bunch of great moments. There's something about what Curry does to the crowd on the road, that I think is unique to him. I can't think of any other players that, that do it. Like, maybe Ray Allen, who wasn't even nearly as good of a player as Steph, but something about when they're going, the crowd kind of gets, kind of staggered by it.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Reggie Miller had a little bit of that.

• 17:31Bill Simmons?

  Reggie's like that too. It's a good one.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, when he got going. And, and it's mostly the jump shooters. Um, but Steph demoralizes the other team, more than any of those guys. Uh, when Steph gets going,

• 17:47Speaker 01

  he can turn a visiting crowd into a home crowd, which you, you don't see anybody, maybe Michael, uh, had, had the ability to do that.

• 17:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, Michael definitely had the ability to do that. Yeah. I was kind of leaving him over here. I was-

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always do, like-

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. He's, he's over here. We're not even mentioning-

• 18:04Speaker 01

  I know it. Uh, but, um- I've seen it like he takes the steam out of your team.

• 18:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  When he gets going, I mean, he's hopping around, you know, like you want to kill him. Like if you had, I always said, if I was playing against him, I'd want to kill him. Uh, because he does things that, that you, you don't see and they, it takes the wind out of your sails. It really does. That three was a dagger. It was a killer.

• 18:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, he also had that, that dancing lefty flip layup. They're down five. It's like, what the fuck was that?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  So nonchalant. Like it's, it's not, I think the most, the thing that people miss the most with Steph, because he's this nice guy, right? He's, does all the charitable work. Everything he says is right. Like he's the most coachable star. And one day we're going to have a pod about that. Why Steph has won over some of the other guys. And because I'm a coach, I really believe a lot of it is because he allowed himself to be coached.

• 19:07Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And, and I think that's part of it. Um, but what we miss with him is he's a stone cold blooded killer. Just like Kobe and Michael. He just doesn't come off that way. But he's, he's exactly like them and, and people miss that with him. They miss forecast him, uh, his toughness and his grit. They really do.

• 19:30Bill Simmons?

  Do you think it's not going to be this year's team? Is there a world where he's ever on a really relevant team again, or is it too late?

• 19:40Speaker 01

  It's never too late. Um, you know, it takes one move, you know, you just, you know how it works and you just never know. Um.

• 19:50Bill Simmons?

  So you still think he could be, maybe not what he was in 22, but he could be almost like what you had with KG and Ray and Pierce.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, every, every bit of it.

• 19:58Bill Simmons?

  One of the three.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, but he needs help. Like,

• 20:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  You know, I think the reason he's injured, been injured a lot this year is, uh, he's been carrying a heavy load.

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's running so much, even like yesterday, watching him hurt, seeing the amount of running he's doing just to stop and start stuff.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  That's what's, I'm so surprised that, that he's been able to sustain, you know, uh, LeBron, his athleticism, his size, you can see it. But because of the way Steph plays, I just, if you had asked me six years ago. That Steph would still be doing it now, I would have said, no way, there's no way. But if you watch his workouts, and I'm sure you've heard about him.

• 20:41Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Then you understand why he's in the condition, but even that, at some point you think, even that's gonna wear him down. And so far, it hasn't.

• 20:52Bill Simmons?

  So who was the best player you went against this year? Who was the one, like if you had to stack them, who was the one that you were like, wow?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's never been asked, Bill. That's a good question.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Wimby.

• 21:07Bill Simmons?

  Ironically, that was the best player I saw in person this year, where it was like, wow, this is like, I haven't seen anything like this.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just so different, and he does so many things. You have to prepare for him differently than everybody else. He can't get behind you, like he literally cannot defensively, he cannot get behind you in the paint. If he does, they throw it up, and there's nothing you can do about it.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  You know, you have to shoot his recovery, you can beat him off the dribble at the free throw line, but you're not gonna get the shot off. You know, Manute Bo, if you remember Manute Bo?

• 21:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Manute Bo had that kind of coverage, you know, where you thought you had him beat, and then you got to the rim, and you would try to go under the rim to reverse it, to guard him, and he still got it. Well, Wimby does that. His shot, he's not a, he's a really good three-point shooter.

• 22:08Bill Simmons?

  And a good free throw shooter, too.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Great free throw shooter, and he's found his shot now, like at the end of the game, he knows if I can get to the elbow, kind of like Dirk.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  You just gotta hope, like when you're guarding him, all you're doing is hoping he misses. Because there's nothing you're doing defensively. I do think

• 22:28Speaker 01

  the guards should get up under him and get into his body. The stronger, lower base guys have a better chance of guarding him than the longer guys. He's just so talented, and he's another guy that has the Kobe, Michael mean streak.

• 22:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And I love that about him as well.

• 22:45Bill Simmons?

  Did you, was he noticeably better this year than last year to you?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if it was, yeah, number one, yes, because he was more sure of what he was doing.

• 22:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  But I don't know where it came from, but this killer, like he had it last year, but he's ramped it up.

• 23:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  It's almost like he's taking names, you know, like, okay, uh, you got me last year. That's how you feel that he's playing, that he remembers everything that went on last year against him. And, and he's turning that into, um, energy.

• 23:22Bill Simmons?

  Interesting, because the other guy that jumped out when I saw them was Castle, who seemed, who I voted for first team. By the way, I have to ask you about my vote later because I'm wavering on one. But I, I put Castle on first team all defense because I, I'm like, what more do you want from a perimeter guy at defense than this?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  That's what makes the Spurs, you know, uh, Wimby is amazing, right?

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  But all their guards are guards, can guard, like every single one of them. I think that's what people miss with the Spurs, is how good they are defensively.

• 23:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Uh, now Wimby has figured out how to not, how to switch and stay in the paint without going out to corners and stuff like that. Uh, and you know, I, I, I worry like the one team that could make them struggle, maybe if you can get a guy that he's guarding, that is really shooting the ball well from the three, uh, to pull them out a little bit, uh, you have a little bit of a shot.

• 24:19Bill Simmons?

  That's, that's probably Denver, right? It's because that's either Gordon or Jokic trying to pull him away from the basket a little.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  And their passing, um, but I tell you, the, uh, their guards, they put pressure on you. It's real pressure. Like they're up into you and, and you know, I had a couple of years when I was a player early in my career. We had, uh, Tree Rollins and Dan Roundfield. And if you're from Boston, you know who Tree Rollins is, uh, clearly Tree Bice Man, you know? Uh, uh, I felt my first couple of years, I could really be aggressive because I'm like, go, go, go.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  How dare you? I mean, that's how that that's how you feel they're playing like they're so up into you and they're pressuring you so much. It's almost like they're saying, if you want to, you can, you can drive, but it's not going to be good for you. And and they play that way.

• 25:16Bill Simmons?

  You told me, we were talking before the playoffs last year and you were telling me about Indiana. This was not on a podcast. This was just I was texting about it. And you were telling me how difficult they were because of what they were doing, pressuring defensively and just people don't realize what a bitch it is to play against them. And I really started watching and I, I thought Indiana was my big sleeper to make the, to make the finals last year because it was like, yeah, they're doing something. I don't know if people fully realize it yet. And now you saw the league emulated this year and there are all these teams trying to pick up full pressure and it feels like this new wave of, of what, but you must have, being in the middle of coaching, you must have noticed like a difference this year, right?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you knew it's coming like the, the league is a, is pretty easy to predict, like where everybody's going. Oklahoma City, uh, very physical on the ball. They reach, they grab, they hold, they slap, they strip, uh, they won. So every team is going to try to do their version of that. Um, and so you knew it was going to go that way. San Antonio does it. It's easy for them to do. Indiana did it. There's a couple of other teams, Detroit, physical, pressuring the ball.

• 26:30Bill Simmons?

  Minnesota can do it too, when they play I O and, uh, and McDaniel's and Ant all together.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And when, and when, and when they're saying, like, Minnesota can beat anybody and lose anybody. That's just who they are, man. But, you know, that's, I tell you, if I'm Denver, that's a rough first round. That that that just is because they've beaten Denver and I'm and that's why I you know I look at like Boston, New York, I'm like, no, that can be a scary thing as well because Boston, New York beat Boston. I don't care what you say, confidence is just like you were talking about winning.

• 27:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Like when you when you win against someone in a series, you believe you can beat them no matter how good they are. You you start believing that and it becomes hard. I'll tell you what ball pressure does though in a circle about our conversation.

• 27:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  It shortens the clock. Dude, it's all you have to think about. It shortens the clock. Instead of running your offense in 20 seconds and you're getting it, you're you're starting your offense at 14. You may not even started with the guy you want to start it with. You know, you may have taken the ball out of his hands. And so you're wasting your time trying to get it back into the right guy's hands. And now there's 10 seconds. Like, if if you can convince your team, if you have a team built like that, guys, if you pressure the ball, all we have is 12 seconds of defense, the play of a possession. It makes you a better defensive team. And that's why teams are doing it.

• 27:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, and the the talent pool in the league now, where you can have a team like the Celtics that have Walsh and Hugo Gonzalez.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:03Bill Simmons?

  And Shireman and you know, Pritchard away and they could just kind of keep going. And Ron Harper Jr. They're bringing in. It just feels like everybody's so because that we've talked about this before, but like your 2012 Celtics team, kind of the last hurrah team.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:18Bill Simmons?

  And you go back and look at the depth on that team and some of the guys that were playing versus like the depth that teams have now, like Ron Harper Jr. Is good. Ron Harper Jr. Would would play real minutes on playoff teams and he can barely get out there for the Celtics. I feel like a lot of teams have these extra guys like that. And I'm sure this is one of the reasons they're thinking about expansion because the the talent's there. I don't think they should do it.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  There it's it's a it's going to go away once they expand, you know.

• 28:47Bill Simmons?

  True, true.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  I think about you're talking to a guy that came in the league with 23 teams.

• 28:51Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  And so each time it expanded, the the talent pool and the benches got thinner and thinner and thinner.

• 28:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  But it also comes down to the front office building and management. Like Brad's done an amazing job. Brad Brad was a really, really good coach. He's a better front office guy. Like, he really is. Like, he's all the guys he had, anybody could have taken. Like it's not like he's taking these guys. I'm not, I'm not talking about the Jalen.

• 29:21Bill Simmons?

  You're talking about like Shireman and people like that. Yeah.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  And Pritchard, any, anybody had a chance to grab these guys, but they did. And they keep doing it, you know? And so.

• 29:32Bill Simmons?

  Kada, they got Kada from the Kings. He was like a second round draft pick of the Kings.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  And wasn't playing. He played a little bit, but they're, they're evaluating their, their spur like lately, you know, like they're evaluating the talent. They evaluate the type of guys that fit. Uh, they know Joe. They know what Joe will stand for and won't stand for. And they're, they're hitting a homerun. That's a homerun. Like you gotta give them credit. They've been amazing.

• 29:55Bill Simmons?

  So Missoula this year, who was, I thought incredible. I'm voting for him for a coach of the year, um, non homer pick. I just can't. I don't know how they won 56 games. I still don't really understand it.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know about not homer pick, but I'm going to go with you on that one. A little bit on that one. Yeah.

• 30:10Bill Simmons?

  They started out 0-3 and finished 56 and 26 and I still don't understand what happened.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  He's done an amazing. I did tell you that I thought there would be a playoff team.

• 30:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  But, but I didn't, I mean, come on, the, he's had, he's done, it's, it's, it's, he's done an amazing job. This, I would say is the first year in a long time that there could be five guys that if they won coach of the year. Maybe even higher than you can see. I can see that.

• 30:41Bill Simmons?

  So you got bigger stack, bigger staff. Jordan Naught would you put on there?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Jordan Naught is one.

• 30:47Bill Simmons?

  Mitch, Mitch Johnson?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Mitch Johnson is one.

• 30:50Bill Simmons?

  So who's your fifth one?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Uh, Joe Missoula is one.

• 30:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  So that's four. And I can't think of my fifth, but I just told someone, uh, a fifth. Uh, so my, my point is. It's they, they just, it's amazing. It's been really cool to watch and, and the Jordan Hots, um. And even Mitch in a, in a way like Jordan.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  It's really impressive to watch because they lost talent.

• 31:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  And got better, you know, he came in and changed their way.

• 31:27Bill Simmons?

  Charles Lee was your fifth one.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Charles Lee is my fifth.

• 31:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was, I was, I was listening to, but I was also like, who's the, yeah, the Charles Lee's the fifth one.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Charles Lee is the fifth one, like, um, we played him early in the year, you know, we beat them three out of four, right? Early in the year. And I came in our coaches meeting because we played them like on a Monday and then on a Friday and it was right during the mid-season tournament thing. And when we played them the second time and beat them, Peter Fagan, who was, was with the Bucks and have become a really good friend of mine, he said, man, they're going to be good. I said, they are good. And he's like, what do you mean? I said, they're here. I said, they're here now. And he's like, no, I don't see that. I said, oh no, they're here right now.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  They're coming. Now, I didn't know they were going to make the run that they made, but we played well that game.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Because it was one of the tiebreakers at that time. We played well, probably one of our hardest, best late games, and it took everything to beat them.

• 32:37Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, I thought, you know, obviously, I, I think Khan changed their culture. Like, there, there are certain players that have the ability, Kevin Garnett, to walk in and change the culture without words, but with his actions. And I, and I think Khan has kind of done that. And now LaMelo and all the other guys are doing it as well. They've kind of bought in to that.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad, I'm glad you said that because that, it's been a polarizing Rookie of the Year vote, right? And I voted for Khan.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:08Bill Simmons?

  And, you know, part of me is I value the winning, even though I know you're not supposed to do the Rookie of the Year that way. But I, I think, I personally think you should.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I did too.

• 33:18Bill Simmons?

  But I thought. First of all, he played a shitload of games in a bunch of minutes for them, right? Which he played like 2,500 minutes in 79 games. But I thought, I was talking the other day about like the gravity of him out there. And he's really the only guy that moves. And his constant movement sets up everything else that they're doing. Combined with like, he rebounds, he plays defense, he's unselfish. You have to have a guy like that.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  You do. And if it's one of your better players, then your team is better. Yeah. You know, you can make a case early in the year, Charlotte was probably thinking about moving guys. You know, moving Lamelo, uh, moving, um,

• 33:56Bill Simmons?

  Bridges.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Bridges. And now you watch them, they're playing like winners. Miller is, uh, should be up for one of the most improved players.

• 34:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I mean, but all that is from winning and playing the right way. And they, what's great is they didn't do it early, but they kept at it. They kept playing the right way and then they caught fire. I thought the sneakiest move that Charles made with, wasn't the Batte in the starting lineup. I thought he was like a, a glue guy defensively and, and he is as good as anybody in the league, offensive rebounding. He's a terror on the glass.

• 34:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  He gives, he won, like, I, I know Lamelo played great, Bridges, but he won that game against Miami. He kept giving them extra shots. And, and that's, that's invaluable.

• 34:46Bill Simmons?

  This rookie class was spectacular.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Great.

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  Flag, who I feel terrible not voting for Rookie of the Year, because I think he's going to be a possible generational guy, right? And it's not his fault, his team's done. Yeah, he's, I think he's going to be fine. Dylan Harper, I was even in the preseason like, okay, I guess, I guess we're doing this, watching him and he, I was saying, uh, a while ago, he reminds me of more of a guy like from your era. Like that he's not really a three-point shooter, he can shoot them, but he really wants to get close to the basket. He wants to bang bodies, he wants to field dudes against him before he decides what to do. Like he's at like 85. Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  He plays like a grown man. Like he finishes in traffic as well as anybody in our league and he's a rookie. Like he is going to attack, like he's another guy, you know, how we were talking about Steph? You know, he's looking for this shot. But you know, when Dylan's coming at you, you're not looking to shoot a jumper. He's, he's, he's trying to get to the basket.

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And he's like, stop it because I don't think you can. The toughness of that team, like you think about those guys, you just, you know, uh, they, they've added, every guy they've added is tough.

• 35:59Bill Simmons?

  It sounds like you think they're going to win the title.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I think they could. I do worry about, I mean, if you watched the game last night, Golden State won because they had a bunch of fits.

• 36:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Then just know how to win. And that's the only thing that, that scares me with San Antonio. And then I did only other thing is can they shoot the ball well enough when it's time to shoot the ball? Like they can shoot, they're a good shooting team. Uh, but can they shoot it well enough down the stretch? Uh, that would be the two. Defensively, they'll be fine.

• 36:33Bill Simmons?

  I have three concerns and they're all small. One is Wemby holding up for 10 weeks because he's seven foot seven. And I just, I'm always worried about him and I think people are going to be really physical with him. So that's one. Two is the shooting, especially when they're like up 10, 12. And they don't really have that inside outside. It's really Harper, but I don't think they're going to have him out there in these situations. But that guy who could just kind of create a shot. That's not a three or it's not a Wemby play.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fox, Fox can do that a little bit, but in between, yeah.

• 37:03Bill Simmons?

  So he's the third one is Fox, who's used to being the guy. But now he's on this team with all of these different weapons and he's got to step back and do the 1989 Isaiah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I don't, I don't. Navigated. I think he's navigated pretty well this year. Like you can see in games, he picks and chooses. Some games he's aggressive, some games he's not. Uh, early in the year, I was worried about it. And then as, as the season went on, I'm like, man, he's kind of, kind of accepted.

• 37:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. Cause they started winning, they put together winning streaks on that side. I just wonder in the playoffs, if it gets like the Nut, Nut Crunch time. I'm just gonna be, because they're gonna need him. He's gonna have to be the guy who's like, guys, I got this.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  He's gonna have to be the guy.

• 37:44Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna have to be him.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  At times, but they're sitting in the kitchen sink at Wendy's. And, and, and so, uh, I, I agree with that. I think it would have to be him, for sure.

• 37:54Bill Simmons?

  So, do you believe in that the old guys on the couch philosophy of you, you, the bright lights are really bright and you have to have played in a few of these to really understand that? Because you can even feel that in the Charlotte playing game.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:07Bill Simmons?

  It was like, oh, this is a different level of pressure, guys. These threes aren't going in now.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  I mean, Todd didn't even get back in.

• 38:12Bill Simmons?

  No, no. He's 20.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And he actually did have that look like, whoa.

• 38:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  But I, I don't. I just think there's something different about them. Uh, you know, we thought that about Oklahoma and then they couldn't win the first year and then they came back. So it's, if you just believe in history, um, you would have to say, the history says no, but I think my eyes tell me something different is about them. Um, I wouldn't be shocked if they won and I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't. You, you know what I mean by that? Because of that. So.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  But they're fun to watch.

• 38:51Bill Simmons?

  So they would have to basically beat Denver in round two.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:55Bill Simmons?

  They're gonna have to beat OKC in round three and then somebody good from the East in round four. That would be the best.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And, and they're gonna have three physical series. Portland is big.

• 39:07Bill Simmons?

  Let's talk about Portland. Yeah, they're, they're a little dangerous.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Portland is dangerous because Portland has size.

• 39:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  They have size and they have real defenders. Like, they can defend one through five. Um, so that, that series, San Antonio's going to win, but I'm telling you, it's not going to be an easy series. Where Portland will struggle is can they score enough?

• 39:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's kind of Denny. Yeah, it's Denny or bust. You could feel that even in the playing game. He was awesome at 41, but.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And I hadn't even looked at those, head to head, but my guess is what, what, what he does.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  His drive to the basket. Well, that's what Wimby does too defensively.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  He's gonna have to get those same layups over Wimby.

• 39:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So that's, that's gonna affect him a little bit.

• 39:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz he, he's one of those guys. He goes right every single time. And you're like, just play him so he doesn't go right. It's like, okay. And then he goes right again. It's like, why did you let him go right?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  It's like Vinny Johnson. Yeah, Vinny Johnson of the business went right. Mike Fratello cussed me out 50 times and, and I'm like, in my brain, I'm like, Coach, I swear to God, I'm trying to make him go left. He just won't.

• 40:21Bill Simmons?

  Maybe it was like that the other way, going left. I know you're going left. I can't stop you, but I know you're doing that.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was, I was like half of all those guys, but I was only going right. And I remember late my career, a rookie walks up to me before, you know, on the jump ball and say, hey, Doc, you're not going right today. And you know what I told him? I said, well, I'm not going left.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  And so something's gonna happen. And that's what these guys think. Like, I'm good at going left. You're not gonna take me away from it. And he thinks I'm good at going right. You can do all that stuff, but I'm getting there.

• 40:54Bill Simmons?

  I wish Portland wasn't playing San Antonio cuz it's funny, the upset teams to me heading in around one were Portland and Atlanta. And then each of them ended up with a draw that you just don't want them to have, right? Portland, Wimby's just the Loch Ness monster waiting for them. And then Atlanta was all set up to play Cleveland and then effed up the last day of the season. And now they have to play the Knicks.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I still wouldn't want to play Atlanta. They're good. They're long. They're athletic. What, what they've done right before trade deadline is bringing shooters in and adding shooting to that team. With the size and the length they have is unbelievable, you know? Brunson is gonna, they're gonna put everybody on.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  It's gonna be a hard number. Brunson has his numbers. He's killed Atlanta. You know, in the regular season, he probably will in the playoffs cuz you're that special. But he's gonna get worn out. Like, that is not a team you wanna see.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  New York better do quick work or it's gonna be a dangerous series.

• 42:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that, like, I was looking at the odds for the series on Fanduel and the Knicks are like three to one favorites.

• 42:07Bill Simmons?

  That it feels like a seven gamer to me.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Bill Simmons?

  Maybe six, but at least six, maybe seven. The problem when you play the Knicks, this is my fear for the Celtics too, is you feel like, feel like you have them for 44 minutes and then it's like a three point game with four minutes left. Now they're in the Brunson versus your best guy contest and he's really good at that.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's certain teams like if you're playing the Lakers, you know, when they're healthy. Well, all you have to do is is get the game to the last five minutes.

• 42:38Bill Simmons?

  Right. And then it's Luca versus whoever you have. Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  And and and then reads like there's certain teams like that, you know, uh, when you're playing the Knicks, you know, if it gets to a single possession game, they got Brunson and then they got this guy Cat standing out at the three that will make a shot on you. Uh, they become very difficult. Um, that's why the Celtics are tough. You know, they got two guys, you know, um, plus they do it all game, but they have two guys down the stretch that can take over a game. Uh, when you have multiple guys, it's tough. It really is.

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  What were you surprised that they were able to slide Tatum back into the minutes and juggle whatever Jalen's having this, you know, one of the great late bloomer borderline MVP candidate seasons and he's finally the guy. Now here comes Tatum. Now I gotta balance that. You know, that can go great or that can go terrible.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  That could have gone, that could have gone bad, but.

• 43:37Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  They have.

• 43:38Bill Simmons?

  Were you surprised? What did you think was gonna happen?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  I didn't know. Uh, I did, you know, obviously I talk to Sam all the time, but, um, I did think they had the equity of a title.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And and so that kind of makes them want to play right.

• 43:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Uh, I also thought Joe did his best work there. Like he made it clear. Um, this is Jalen Brown's team this year. Um, and then you gotta give a ton of credit to Tatum. He just wanted to play. Like he, he just wants to play. He wants to be Tatum and he's gonna be Tatum. Uh, but you know, listen, I think in Tatum's mind is I'm back, I'm healthy. I have a chance to win another title. And Jaylen Brown was the MVP of the last finals. So it's not a big deal to me. I just want to win. So there was a lot of things going for them, but it could have went really bad. Uh, and, and it has not. Now they haven't gotten into the playoffs yet.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  So if they get pushed, we may see something, but I don't think so. I think they are a made team. You know what I mean by that? Like they understand each, each guy understands his role. And, and, and Joe does a great job of accountability. He really does.

• 44:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, I said this the other day on a pod that it's his team, which is how this solved itself. It's not Jaylen's team or Jason. It's actually Joe Bazula's team. So we saw it that way. He's running the team.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And, and he makes that clear.

• 45:04Bill Simmons?

  It's, you know, it says a lot about where the NBA is in 2026. Cause I think those, those guys aren't best friends, but they're good. And I think they both want the same thing, but what can happen? And you, you had a lot of this happen to you the last 12 months with Bucks, but it's all the people around the guys. And it's all the insider and this guy heard this and that heard that. Or somebody who you know is friends with one of the players and they're saying something on a show or a pod. And the stuff takes a life of its own that doesn't, didn't even start.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  You know, and like there's, it, it's, if everyone wrote an article about someone having to blow up in a locker room, every team would be in blasts, you know? You know what I mean? There's so, people have no idea Bill, how often and how much that happens. And honestly, I've always thought it should happen. If you lose a bad game, there should be some tension.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  There should be some tension, like that's part of it.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  And the good teams get through it, though. They look at it and they take growth from it. And the average of the bad teams let it hold them now. They still hold on to it. Uh, it, it gets out, you know? People talk about it, that a player said this or a coach. Those are the bad teams.

• 46:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Those are the, the guys who, the good teams, you don't find out about it. They keep it inside. Um, they make it part of their growth, their strength. All right, let's fight about this. Let's take another step. And to me, you, you can see it. I've always said the most beautiful thing in the world is the finals. Because you have two teams usually that have committed themselves completely to the team. They've literally given themselves to the team and they play that way. And that's why watching the finals is so beautiful. Uh, because there's no BS, there's no fighting. This is my team. And if there is, that team's gonna lose. Like it's, it's so obvious.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  I always looked at the first Miami year with LeBron Wade. They didn't win, um, because the, they played a team, the Spurs, who were completely.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  Mavericks.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, the Mavericks who, they, they were so together.

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  You know, uh, Deshaun Stevenson, I remember was a kid that was started and Rick put him on the bench. And no issues.

• 47:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  It was no issues, like it was about the team and winning. And, and so this, then the next year they came back and they were like that.

• 47:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  They had the, that lesson was taught to them, you know? And so.

• 47:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about the flip side of that. Cause I think a good example for this is the 2019 Warriors, that third KD season. And they had that thing happen with Draymond and KD and the Clipper game. Which, were you coaching the Clippers that year?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  I was coaching, yeah.

• 47:58Bill Simmons?

  And you knew that was different. It felt different on the court. It felt, you could see it on the bench. It was like, oh, this is a bad one. And it turned out it was a bad one.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the first time it was real.

• 48:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  You know, like, um, you remember that game Draymond took that shot.

• 48:13Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Uh, that since the game in the overtime and they looked awful in overtime, we went on and won the game.

• 48:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Uh, and then I heard afterwards, you know, it's so funny, like as a coach, you don't know any of this crap is going on.

• 48:27Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  You're coaching your team and then, then in the press conference, that's all they're asking me about. And I'm like, guys, I didn't know that was going on. Um, I'm happy it's going on. It's the other day.

• 48:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  But, but that never left them. That stuck with them.

• 48:43Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily. And I mean daily, cause every day during the playoffs, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. Special drops you won't want to miss, profit boosts, bonus bets, much more. The best part, it's every single day, including today as we head toward the playoffs. I was looking at series parlay stuffs. As you know, I love to pick upsets. I had Indiana last year. I love nothing more than a round one upset with a nice juicy, juicy underdog number.

• 49:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't see it this year. I really think the best series bet is a four series parlay with the Spurs and Boston money lines, along with the Denver money line and the New York money line. And all four of those series would have to win and it is plus 120 on FanDuel. And I think that's the one I would recommend the most out of any of these. I really wanted to take Toronto again. I just don't think Toronto is going to beat the Knicks. I think that series is going to be good and close, and I think it goes six or seven, but I think the Knicks win. Anyway, check that one out and I'm going to be tweeting picks and all kinds of stuff, during the course of the playoffs and showing you, uh, your best FanDuel possibilities. We've been hot lately.

• 50:00Bill Simmons?

  Just, just check out what's going on on, on the, uh, the last three Wednesdays slash Tuesdays we hit, including Wednesday, um, or Tuesday, Wednesday, told you Portland, take them against Phoenix, parlay them with Charlotte money line and Philly money line and everything we had. So we're, we have a little momentum right now. Check out, uh, FanDuel for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. Don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to FanDuel.com/BS to get started. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym, a thousand shots before tipoff, day after day in the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. The best players put in the work and State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget. Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great, and that's why you want State Farm on your team. So get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 51:29Bill Simmons?

  We didn't talk about Maxey in Philly. You love Maxey.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I love him.

• 51:33Bill Simmons?

  Maxey was like one of your all time favorites from day one. You've, you've touted his virtues nonstop. He was awesome this year. I have him third, I had to third team all NBA just because I have to put a center on each team, but he's like, could have been second. And if they're going to give the Celtics any semblance of a chance, it's going to be because of him. And Zach and I did a pod-

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Little guards bother Boston. Like they struggle with the quick, fast guys. Uh, and Maxey, it's just not that he's just so quick and fast. He's now finishing left or right. Uh, he, he's, he's an elite shooter. He's not a good shooter. He's an elite shooter. He's tough as nails. And what he's really done, and I'm so proud of him, he's become a leader. He is the leader of that team. There is no doubt about who's the leader of the Sixers. And it's really cool for a guy that that young and such a great, high character guy. To have taken that step this quickly.

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz that so you mentioned they're not Celtics aren't great against guards like that. They're also cuz they love offensive rebound and they're crashing the boards constantly.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  And you don't get the board and the teams that just go, oh, boom, we're off. It's like hockey. It's like a two on one or three on two. I think Maxey's the best in the league at that of like, oh, I have numbers, boom, I'm going 700 miles an hour.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he doesn't even need numbers, but when he has numbers, you're in trouble. And where he's really improved is his passing. Like, you know, in the year, two years I had him, he can get to the basket, but he couldn't see a lot. Now, you know, he sees a lot. He's making guys better. And I'm just watching them this year. There's games like when Joel and Paul George were really and and Echome were playing well, he kind of takes, he's fine with taking a step back. And then when they need him, he takes back over. So his growth has been unbelievable. They're not gonna be easy to beat, you know? And I know everyone says Joel's not coming back. I don't believe that. I think he will play in this series and I have no reason to say that.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  I just, I just think it's too important not to.

• 53:46Bill Simmons?

  I think we will see him at some point in the series, but probably a little later. And by the way, they might be down like 3-1 by the time.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  If you see him, then you may not see him. But if it's, you know, if you're Philly, you're thinking if I can get one of these first two and then I can win one at home, it's 2-2. And then we get the big fella back.

• 54:07Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  There's pressure at it.

• 54:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, one thing, and you've seen that crowd in various stages of either just horrified or really great. They love Maxey and they love Echome and there's real energy. These home games, like you could feel it in that Orlando game, like they fucking love those guys. And I don't know, I think they're gonna be tough to beat in Philly. Boston can't lose one of those first two. But I honestly, if you lose one of those first two in this series to a Philly team without Embiid, then that probably. Says more about Boston, like they gotta take care of business. You gotta win.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  But you know, good teams, they can and still win.

• 54:46Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean? No, I get it. It's just like.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  But it does. They they better play well because the longer the series goes on, it allows Joel to come closer to getting back. And you put Joel Embiid in that series. It's it's a tough series.

• 55:01Bill Simmons?

  I got an email from a listener because I've been doing more mailbag stuff.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Wow, I don't I don't dare listen to my mail.

• 55:11Bill Simmons?

  Somebody asked if Joel is the unluckiest superstar in the history of the NBA. And I I think you could make a case for Bill Walton.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. That's a good, good answer.

• 55:24Bill Simmons?

  But I think Joel has had more injury, more injuries to different parts of his body. And just things happen and bad luck and orbital bone and Walton just had feet issues and beats like. It's like every year, it's a different something like.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I remember the first, you know, I had three years there, right? The first year, um, was it game five against Washington, the closeout game?

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  I thought I thought he tore his knee. I mean, that was that looked bad. The second year, and I'm missing them up, another knee injury. The third year, he gets no, the second year just hit in the face.

• 55:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  And and then he also hurts his hand. You remember he had the.

• 56:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, to have surgery in his hand. He breaks his face bone. So he has to wear a mask. Then the third year, he had another, he had a meniscus injury.

• 56:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  I'm like, and then this year he has appendix. I mean, come on, like, you can't make this stuff up. And so, yeah, it's it's really rough because the I'm telling you, and I'm telling you this, he's as talented as I've I've ever seen. And I really believe like if I had had him, especially the first year. In that Atlanta series and he was healthy, I I do believe we advance, you know.

• 56:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, we talked about that before. That's one of the all time, what the hell happened in that series, series? I mean, Ben Simmons' career was never the same after that. He literally died during the series.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  No, it it literally happened. You know, I was, we laugh about it. It wasn't funny at the time. I remember. Telling Sam Cassell in the Washington series, you know, they haven't filed Ben at all in this series? And I swear game one, Atlanta, or you're like, oh, boy.

• 57:09Bill Simmons?

  And now he's a fisherman.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:12Bill Simmons?

  He's a professional fisherman. This guy was 13th team NBA. He's not even in his 30s yet.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  But in that year, he had with me there, he was amazing.

• 57:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he looked like LeBronish a couple, like in the full court stuff.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  LeBronish or magicous, you know, you remember with the decision we made was we put the ball in his hands full time.

• 57:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  And that was great until the playoffs. And when they started following them, then he didn't want the ball anymore. And that crushed our offense. But man, I see, I'm telling you, I, I'm, I'm shocked that he's not playing basketball. He is so talented.

• 57:48Bill Simmons?

  We didn't talk about Detroit. What made them go up a level in your opinion? I have my thoughts, but what was different about them this year versus last year?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Oh, boy, that's a good question. Well, I thought K took a huge jump. Number one, um, as good as state was last year, he's one of the top five players in the league now.

• 58:07Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Uh, or, or in that area.

• 58:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  You know, there's so many guys. Um, and then Durham took a, a jump that I didn't see coming. I, I never thought he would be able to score, uh, and play with the finesse game that he has played with this year. I didn't see that coming. Uh, you forget how young he is, Bill, and

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  And so, uh, I think that those two things are the reason they are where they're at. And, and then the last thing, they did something that no team need to do. They bought into who they are. They, they really bought into their identity, you know, like when you hear Miami, you hear the heat culture, right? And they buy into it. Well, Detroit basketball, they have bought into it. And I think that, that carries a lot of weight for them.

• 58:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And the, one of the reasons I had him second team, I'm BA, Duren, is I felt like. The physicality and the attitude they have, it kind of starts with him. Like he's, he's out of like your era. Like you could see him like getting into it with Anthony Mason in game five of a Knicks Pistons series. He's, he's a complete throwback and carries himself that way, you know?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  No, he carries himself like he's the baddest man on the floor. And there's nothing you can do about it. And then they have the ultimate guy off the bench who will fight anybody in Stewart.

• 59:30Bill Simmons?

  Literally, he'll come off the bench to fight you.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  He'll come off and it's like, I, I love the comment he made in the one fight where he came off the bench and he said, what do you expect me to do? Like this is who I am.

• 59:42Bill Simmons?

  And they have Ron Holland, who's also ready to rumble.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, they have a bunch of guys that, that are just, they're ready to go. And you know, because he's one of my personal favorites. I'm just so happy with Tobias, uh, because it was so rough for him in Philly. And, and now to see him be a leader, uh, be the bat of the team is really cool. Like I love when good things happen to good people, uh, and it's happening to Tobias and good for him.

• 1:00:09Bill Simmons?

  And they actually need him because there's

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Oh, they need him.

• 1:00:12Bill Simmons?

  Without Cade, there, there's not a lot of guys who can create their own shot. And it's amazing how many times he had the ball with three minutes left, a minute 30 left, where he had to basically create a 17 footer from scratch. And he was able to do it. I thought he was really good this year.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  He's been great. And that's the only thing that scares me is there, there, can they shoot well enough? Uh, even though they're high and when they're looking at their offensive rating and top five or whatever.

• 1:00:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  I still worry about can they play well enough offensively, uh, to win? That'll be the, that'll be the biggest question.

• 1:00:48Bill Simmons?

  So what, what's your finals then? Do you have, who's coming out of the East? If you had to, if your life depended on it, who would you pick?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  If, how about if Larry's life depended on it?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, that's easier. I'm still going Boston, but, uh,

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  The Knicks are dangerous. I know people want to want to crap on the Knicks.

• 1:01:11Bill Simmons?

  You're a picture in the choir. I'm afraid of them.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  I just don't understand why. I I get they didn't maybe play great every regular season game, but they're deep. They're deep.

• 1:01:21Bill Simmons?

  And they can defend. They can defend wins. They can defend guards.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  And they can score. And I would not be surprised if the Knicks made it to the finals at all. So those are the two teams that I would have.

• 1:01:33Bill Simmons?

  My fear with the Knicks is there was a game Missoula kind of threw away the last Knicks game because I don't think he wanted to show them anything. But he did have Tatum playing and he went and Tatum needed to get over that hump of being at MSG, right? Which is the worst moment of his life. You got to get him back out there. And Ananobe was just doing the Draymond thing. He was just in his personal space the entire game and really likes guarding Tatum. And Tatum is 96% back, 94% back, but the first step stuff still isn't totally there yet. I thought.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  The explosive stuff is coming back, but not 100% there. I just, you know, like that, like the Celtics destroyed the Knicks all year.

• 1:02:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Right? And then they beat them that last game. Like, I know that doesn't mean much and it usually doesn't. But in this case, because the Knicks beat them last year in the playoff series, the Knicks, to put it this way, the Knicks, when they play the Celtics, if they play the Celtics, they will not.

• 1:02:35Bill Simmons?

  They will think they're going to win.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Lack of confidence. They won't be. And that's where Detroit, when you look at Detroit, they haven't been to a first round yet. So in a lot of ways, and they're really, people forget how young Detroit is.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Like, people talk about San Antonio and Oklahoma, but they don't talk about how young the Pistons are. And they're really young and they've never advanced. So this is going to be a big year for them to take that next step.

• 1:03:05Bill Simmons?

  You know what the the secret Celtic sauce is that they didn't do in that next game? And I think they've been saving it. Is when they play Tatum at the five, which I think they're gonna do. And I think Tatum, Brown, a shooter and the two guards. I think it's gonna be the lineup against the Knicks because they were playing Kada in crunch time against the Knicks. I just don't think they're gonna do that. I think they're gonna go smaller and try to, and just basically have shooting and just try to attack them, attack Towns, try to attack.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  You can put a smaller guy on Town because he's away from the basket.

• 1:03:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Uh, and one of the areas Town struggles is when you get up under him.

• 1:03:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Uh, he struggles with that. Now, where I think, uh, people should give Towns credit is he has learned now, he goes down low way more. And he's rebounding at an unbelievable clip.

• 1:03:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  And I'm telling you, uh, their rebounding is a factor.

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  Right, especially with Mitch and, yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Bill Simmons?

  Um, we didn't talk about Cleveland. Did you see post, did you play them post Harden trade or no?

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we played them twice. We beat them once, uh, lost to them once.

• 1:04:11Bill Simmons?

  So defensively, they're worse. Offensively, they're more interesting. Is it like, you know, obviously as somebody, I'm talking about me that has just lost all faith in James Harden as a playoff guy. But maybe he doesn't have to be as much of a playoff guy in this team, but what is it?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  He's, I don't know, because I, this is what I'd say about James and, you know, this is what I said about him when I coached him. The one thing I loved about him is he plays.

• 1:04:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  He never misses games. Um, and I know that sounds trivial, but all the other guys do, he does it. He, he wants to play every day and he does that. What I liked about him, Bill, is I don't know, and I always talked about that one year we had with him in the first half of the year. He literally was a scoring point guard and we were amazing. And then that second half, he wanted to start scoring again and it kind of upset the, the rhythm with Joel and all that. If he stays in that role where he's gonna be a scoring, like still.

• 1:05:09Bill Simmons?

  Facilitator, yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  But, but man, I'm telling you, his passing is so underrated. He, he, he's not just a, he's one of the elite passers in our league.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  And when he plays at that where he's still aggressive scoring, but really setting people up. They have two rollers, like James Harden plays well with bigs that roll.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  You know, where he struggled with Joel is Joe would roll.

• 1:05:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Was like, I don't need to roll. I'm Joel Embiid. Just give me the ball. Uh, but he has two bigs that roll. And so it's gonna be interesting. Um, I was surprised when I heard Kenny, you know, the press conference about their defense. I hadn't noticed it because we hadn't been watching him. And, and I still haven't seen him enough to tell you how much worse is it? I don't know that. Um, but if they don't play defense, you're not winning, period.

• 1:06:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the advanced metrics aren't great.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's teams. It's an up and down team now. I think it's harder for them to get stops. They're kind of a wild card though, because they're in the Detroit side of the bracket. Right? They lucked out. They have Toronto who didn't beat any of the top three teams at all this year. And that's pretty easy series, I think. And then hopefully Detroit gets there in the headlights and all of a sudden you're in the Knicks and the Celtics beat the crap out of each other.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do think Toronto is another, I think Cleveland will win that series. But I, I, the one thing I'd say about Toronto is they're big and physical. Uh, and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna bang you up. They're gonna physically bother you. And even, even if it's a five game series, it's not gonna be a physically easy series for Cleveland. That's gonna be a very physical series.

• 1:06:52Bill Simmons?

  What was your, uh, your quick LeBron James take? Age 41, still.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:06:58Bill Simmons?

  Like, did this just stop making sense to you like four years ago?

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  It, it, yeah, it stopped making sense five years ago.

• 1:07:03Bill Simmons?

  You were coaching T-Mac at age 41.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's crazy, right? Like, what he's doing, um, a couple of great things about LeBron. First of all, just physically, come on. Like, he had some dunks this year that half the league could not do now.

• 1:07:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  And, and it's amazing. The other thing that he's done that most stars don't do.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  The old adage in coaching is never coach an aging superstar.

• 1:07:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  They're gonna get you fired. I mean, every coach would tell, especially back in the day, don't take an aging superstar because they're gonna keep thinking they can do what they could do 10 years ago and they can't. And you're gonna have to be the guy that tells them.

• 1:07:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  You know, where I give LeBron credit is he did it himself. He kinda, he sees what Luca is. It's not hard to see, but he sees what Austin Reeves is and he gives them room. He's like, you know, when you need me, I'm over here. He plays the role and I, listen, most guys don't do that. And especially, we're talking about one of the greatest players to ever play doing that. It says a lot about LeBron James and, you know, people want to knock him and, you know, it says a lot about him as a human. It really does.

• 1:08:24Bill Simmons?

  So you're excited to watch him on Golden State next year with Steph and Draymond and Al Horford?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he'll be, you don't think he'll be back with the Lakers?

• 1:08:33Bill Simmons?

  I, I would bet on Golden State. I think they're gonna do the old guy, the Sylvester Stallone expendables. We're getting the, our generation, here we go, we're gonna get everyone together. Let's have fun.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  They're gonna get like Karl Malone, Gary Payton.

• 1:08:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, whatever version of that. Yeah, yeah. But the irony is the Warriors could have really used somebody like LeBron last night. Like he, you know, he's, he does a lot of stuff. So I'm watching. Who is your MVP? Just out of curiosity? Who do you think should have won the MVP this year?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Well, it's a tough one for me. They will probably win. And that's probably who I would have voted for. But Wimby, man, I keep going back to the defensive thing. Like, why we don't give a guy's enough credit for what they do defensively?

• 1:09:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  And you can, you can, if Wimby won it.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  It wouldn't bother me.

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  There was a moment when it seemed like he was going to. I don't think he, like for me, I really,

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:09:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, he, and he didn't have the minutes. Like Jokic played like, I think 400 plus more minutes than he did, and he barely got the minimum. I didn't like that. He skipped the last game of the year when, if they had beaten Denver, they moved Denver down to the four seed. Like, why would you want to do that? What do you want to play Denver for?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that was more of a team choice, you know?

• 1:09:53Bill Simmons?

  That was a bad choice.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the other thing though, is, is the Joker, we have voter fatigue.

• 1:10:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Because like, if you just win by numbers, he wins every year. You know, like, you know, there are a couple of guys that won it in Michael's heyday, but when you go back and look at the numbers, you're like, what are the voters doing? You know, what were they, what were they thinking?

• 1:10:18Bill Simmons?

  That was like the year Malone, when Malone beat Jordan that one year. It seems like the stupidest thing that ever happened. So I said the other day, I was going to vote for SGA and I was agonized over it because I was like, I can't believe I'm not voting for Jokic. She,

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  He had the best offensive season, like not only his career, but one of the best I've ever seen. And now because we, we don't have to turn our ballots till this weekend because we had the appeals, I'm wavering. I might actually vote for Jokic because I'm like, I don't want to be 10 years from now. Like, how did I not vote for Jokic? The guy led the league in assists and rebounds.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  People are going to look at the numbers. It's like, didn't vote for this guy, you know? Having said that, that the numbers aren't always the whole story.

• 1:11:02Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  And what Shay does every night, he's good every night.

• 1:11:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, that's the Jaylen Brown case too of like, when I know I'm getting 30 from my guy every night, my team can behave differently.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And efficient scoring. And, and what Shay also does is down the stretch, he takes the game over.

• 1:11:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's the best crunch time guy in the league. The stat, say it. I test everything.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  You know it's coming and you can't do anything about it. Um, yeah. So that's why he'll, he'll win to me because of that.

• 1:11:36Bill Simmons?

  Man, it sounds like you're picking Wimby.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  It's tough. I would probably pick Shay, honestly, but it really, it's tough for me not to pick Wimby because of the defensive portion. And as good as Shay is and Joker, none of them play defense. None of them changed the game defensively like Wimby does.

• 1:11:54Bill Simmons?

  All right. We've come to the point when we have to talk about the Bucks season.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Oh, Lord.

• 1:12:01Bill Simmons?

  It seemed horrible from afar. Didn't seem like a fun time.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  It wasn't, but it could have been. I will say that. Like the getting off to the start, you know, it's before the season, I said something to my coaches, there's two guys that can't get hurt.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Giannis, obviously, and then Scoot, because we don't have any facilitators.

• 1:12:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  You know, we're not like, we wasn't built like all the other team where they had one and then a second star. We didn't have a second star. So for us to be a, you know, a good team, we weren't going to win anything. They were 26 in spending.

• 1:12:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  You know, so we probably outdid our record. If you match record for record versus teams who's going by spending, we probably were one of the better teams in that way. But at the end of the day, when you, when you start out like that, and then the whole Giannis stuff, it was just not a lot of fun. It just wasn't.

• 1:13:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because that started in July and just became a running narrative.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  But I, I will, I keep saying.

• 1:13:11Bill Simmons?

  I got a lot of podcast content out of it. That was a bonus.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Sure you did. But it, you know, for me, and I don't want to go into this alone because I, it's, a lot of it, like when you're around Giannis and then what you hear on the outside,

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  it was two different worlds. And that's where, from a coaching standpoint, is very difficult because I talk to Giannis every day. And you see these reports and I'm like, I wonder did any of these guys have one conversation with Giannis? Because I think a lot of people at the end of the day were talking for him.

• 1:13:47Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  I don't know if they necessarily were doing that in what he was actually saying. And it made things murky and it made things very, very difficult. And then to end the season with this whole thing was rough. It was just tough.

• 1:14:04Bill Simmons?

  You're talking about the Shams piece or?

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  No, the Shams piece, I literally, I just try to ignore it because it's the point that I was making like, yeah, we had a tough meeting after a game that we blew. Like, again, if you go into any locker room, why is that news?

• 1:14:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Uh, but it's more like the whole Giannis, did he play and not play? Uh, it was tough, like, and I saw it, like, I, as a coach, I could literally see it from both sides of it. Uh, and I really could. And when I talked to Giannis and we talked a lot, I told him that. You know, and it's just, you know, where the, the human side of me, you know, is, the Bucks run office has done an amazing job overall, like to win a title and to get there. They're good people. And then you have Giannis, who I'm telling you is a good person.

• 1:15:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  And they're both, you know, over all this stuff. And I don't think Giannis knows if he wants to stay or not. And I don't know, the organization knows one way on that either. And it just, it's too bad because I just hope that part is figured out. Uh, when you win a title with someone. It's like a blood transfusion and that transfusion shouldn't be broken. And that part is the one that I wanted to figure out. So it's tough.

• 1:15:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz you had that in Boston when the KG Pierce era was coming to an end and you were coming to an end there too.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:36Bill Simmons?

  You had the umbilical cord of that title. And it's tough to just be like, all right, we ran our course here cuz I told you this last summer. I thought they should have traded Giannis last summer. And I didn't, I didn't like the, the Dame stretch, bringing Miles in. I understand why you did it because you were trying basically to create a situation where Giannis retired with the Bucks, right?

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57Bill Simmons?

  You didn't want to just throw away a year when you didn't have your pick. But it was, it was almost an impossible situation.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  It still didn't give us a second, like, start to go to.

• 1:16:08Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  You know, in, in retrospect, when you think about it.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  But, you know, Bill, I, I don't know about the whole trade thing. This is where I, I struggled. I'm being honest with you. Like,

• 1:16:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  What if, what if a guy wants to stay? Where's that? He's won a title and he wants to play his whole career there. Like, what's wrong with that? You know, um.

• 1:16:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially when he won the title, so he doesn't have to go chase one.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Like, I, I'm looking like Jokic, Joker. Joker never wins again. Should he leave?

• 1:16:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, how about Curry? Curry doesn't want to go. Curry could go to Charlotte tomorrow if he wanted.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Curry, yeah, he would never do that. He wants to play and be a Golden State Warrior. And if Giannis did decide that and the, and the front office decided that, okay, there's nothing wrong with that. That's the only thing that bothered me during the season and during the summer about it. It's like no one, you know, no one has asked Giannis, like, what do you want? Um, and that's where you hear one side wants to leave, one side wants to stay. I don't, I think, I, I mean, I don't know if he's made up his mind either way yet. And that's okay.

• 1:17:18Bill Simmons?

  The thing that was, right. The thing that's been going around since July in the NBA circles, which. Sometimes can be unreliable, sometimes can be pretty reliable. It was like Giannis wants to leave, but he doesn't want to be the one that asks for a trade. Like that's what we've around the league. That's what's been going on since August.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's what you hear.

• 1:17:39Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  But, but that's not exactly what's said every day.

• 1:17:43Bill Simmons?

  So yeah, are you talking to him and be like, yo, Giannis, let's, do you want to get traded or not? Like, did you ask him?

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  No, no, never. Cause it wasn't my place, but we talked about a lot of stuff and I, I just think that he's still, I think he has this thing about him that he wants to, he would love to, but like, what did he say on the trade deadline day? You know?

• 1:18:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm a buck or whatever. Yeah.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  And something like that. I think he thinks that way. And so I think leaving is very difficult for him. So you may be right. Maybe he wants to leave, but doesn't want to, I don't even know the answer to that. I just know it's not as cut and dry as people try to make it out to be. And it's not as easy of a situation as people think it is.

• 1:18:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, the problem is they traded a lot to get Drew, right? So you give up, you're giving up future picks, assets, all that stuff. And it works. You win the title. Then you go all in again on the Dame trade. You give up more, basically the rest of your assets for the 2020s.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  That's the problem. Yeah.

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  And but Dame gets hurt, which is bad luck.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  That was just bad luck and, and bad luck happens. Like, oh, listen, you don't win unless you're healthy. I would fight today if you told me that KG never got healthy, never got hurt. We're winning too.

• 1:19:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  You know, uh, but that's part of it. And you know, the Dame thing was unfortunate. Like once he went down and got hurt, uh, Giannis gets hurt. So, you know, the, the whole thing about Giannis having advanced in the playoffs, well, Giannis hadn't played in the playoffs.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  He's been injured until last year and then Dame goes down. So the, the narrative doesn't fit what actually happened is, is what I'm, I guess I'm saying. And you know, I said, I'm sitting here today, um, I can't tell you what's going to happen. I, I really can't. I, I'm at a point now where I just hope everybody's happy, whatever happens. And that would make me happy. You know, it really would.

• 1:19:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, let's have the Doc Rivers exit interview. What could you have done differently? If you could go back and change shit, what would you? Did you feel like you did a good job? What?

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. I think I didn't think I did a great job this year. I really did. Now, obviously, with all the injuries, it was hard and it's easier to second guess. I thought, one of the things that I've always been known for is holding everybody a combo for everything, being on time. And I thought I was very lax in that this year. And there's reasons for that that I can't go into, but it bothered me that I wasn't. Other than that,

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  you know, getting guys to buy into their roles.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  I've been very good throughout my career. I look at the teams that I've coached, Bill, like when you look at even some of the teams that went deep, when you look at them on paper versus the other team, how do they, how do they get to being up in a series, you know? But that's because everybody bought into their roles. I thought I really struggled getting each guy to see who they really are, understand that, and then play that way. Because I think that's the key to coaching, really. I think that's when you look at Joe and all the good coaches now in our league, if you can't get each guy to understand who they are and buy into their role for the good of the team, you're not going to win, period.

• 1:21:12Bill Simmons?

  So is that, that's it for coaching for you, you think? What do you think?

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, we met about, you know, I want to say seven weeks ago, and we had a, me and ownership, we had a great meeting. And that's why we're all on the same page. And they asked me what I wanted to do. You know, one of the owners is, you know, one plan is, you know, if we do this, you know, you can hang in there for a year or two. And I literally said, oh, no, no. No, I was, I was a matter of fact, I told my coaches, like, I'm done. I loved Coach, loved it. I had a lot of success at it. I had some way more ups than

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  downs, you know, but at the end of the day, I've given 40 years, 47 years or whatever, I don't even know how old I am, straight, straight, Bill, like with no off time. Um, and I just wanted a break. I want to get away. Um, the grandkids and just life in general, man, like.

• 1:22:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but the thing is, I don't trust you completely because I remember being at dinner with you and Larry and you were saying how great it was not to, not to be coaching, not getting the calls at three in the morning and how relaxed you were. Then all of a sudden it was like, wait, Doc's going back to coach the Bucks. What happened?

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean I don't want to run a team or get in the front office. I've done that. Um, and, uh, there's places that would be really fun to do. But, uh, right now, um, you know, I'm just gonna try to sit back and if something comes back coaching, I'm gonna look at it. But right now, I, I can tell you, Bill, uh, I think it was time. And, and so I'd be surprised if I coached another game. I'll put it that way.

• 1:23:06Bill Simmons?

  All right. You said that last time. I don't know if I trust you.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  I don't know if I said that last time. I said possibly. This time I'm saying it. But I'm not gonna be Ali. Like I'm not gonna keep coming back. At least I hope not.

• 1:23:19Bill Simmons?

  What's, how's the golf game these days?

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Well, I haven't golfed much, so.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So you gotta get that back.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can I say, uh, the golf scene in Milwaukee is amazing, except for January and December. It's really difficult to get a good golf game going.

• 1:23:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. February, probably not great either.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Not great either.

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, you're gonna pop back on every once in a while, right?

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna be watching basketball? I hope so.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  I love basketball. That's what people, you know, somebody, I was at dinner, uh, last night, uh, and I had the, uh, game sitting at the dinner table on my phone. And the waiter walks up to me and like, I don't get it. You just retired. Your team's not in it. You're watching the game like you're prepping. And I said, I love the game. It's a great game. It's like, you know, I'm actually, I'm really planning on going to a couple arenas.

• 1:24:15Bill Simmons?

  Good.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Sit in a crowd and just watch the game. Not in the front, just sit in a crowd and watch the game. I think that would be, I've never done that. Think about that. I've been to the league for 40, whatever. I've never done that. Um, so if you see me in a crowd, just sitting there drinking a beer. I'm there because I'm having a great time and I'm gonna watch the game.

• 1:24:35Bill Simmons?

  Wow. That, that is, yeah, you went from playing to coaching, to announcing, to coaching, to announcing. Yeah, I guess you never had a.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually, I, I betted in two games, Austin's, when Austin came to play the Lakers and I was coaching the Clippers, I sat in like the fourth row.

• 1:24:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  And I had a ball. And then we were on the road once when I was with Philly and Austin was with Minnesota and Minnesota was in early in New Orleans. And I called New Orleans and said, I want to see like in the seventh row. I do not, because they always want to put you on the floor somewhere.

• 1:25:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Said, I don't want to sit on the floor. And then they were like, well, we're worried about security. I said, I'm good. And me and Sam Cassell. Sitting like the sixth or seventh row, we played New Orleans the next night and it was a ball and fans were talking crap. We, we, uh. I remember at the very end, I turned around and said, hey, see you tomorrow. We're gonna get your ass. And guys were laughing like we had a ball. It was, it was so fun. So it was cool.

• 1:25:35Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, it's good to have you back. Congrats on the Hall of Fame, by the way.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:25:39Bill Simmons?

  That was pretty cool.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  That was cool. That was awesome. The call's awesome. Um, I think I know who I'm gonna ask. I can't tell you yet to, uh, you can figure out.

• 1:25:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I probably have a guess.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  But, but it's gonna be, it's gonna be a really cool thing. And when you make it as a coach, you make it because of all the people who work with you and play for you. You know, you really do like, uh, so it was more of a thankful thing for me.

• 1:26:07Bill Simmons?

  Awesome. Well, it was great to see you. I'll see you in the West Coast, Los Angeles, uh.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Very soon.

• 1:26:13Bill Simmons?

  Great to have you back. Missed having you on. Good to see you. Thank you.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Good seeing you.

• 1:26:17Bill Simmons?

  And now it's time for our new segment, Embracing the Era. It is brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. And they make awesome caps. You should check them out. Take a trip back through time with some of the most iconic, court-defining moments with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection. Let's be honest, a little hard to top the legendary 80s logo. Some people are partial to the 90s when we started to get a little wacky. But the 80s, oh yeah. And speaking of the 80s, that was the era that made me an NBA fan. I was an NBA fan in the 70s. I was going to the games, you know, with my dad, 1974. But the 80s, when the league became the NBA, Magic and Bird started riding to glory.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  Michael Jordan showed up. We had a Celtics Lakers rivalry. We had those NBA entertainment ads that you can go find on YouTube. The NBA is fantastic. Slam dunk contests, three-point contests. All that stuff started. And now you can go back in time with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection, available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950, or adjustables like the 940 A-frame and 970, and some great hardwood classics apparel as well, including this awesome green Celtic sweatshirt that they sent me that my daughter stole from me within a week. And now I have to get it back when she's done with college this year. Visit neweracap.com to shop now.

• 1:27:47Bill Simmons?

  Use one-time code RINGER for 20% off your first order. Check it out.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

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• 1:28:25Speaker 03

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• 1:28:54Bill Simmons?

  All right, my friend Nick Khan is here, mid-level boxing promoter, also works for WWE. When did you become an upper-class boxing promoter?

• 1:29:02Speaker 04

  Mid-level boxing executive.

• 1:29:04Bill Simmons?

  Boxing executive.

• 1:29:05Speaker 04

  Dana White is the promoter, as you know.

• 1:29:07Bill Simmons?

  So mid-level boxing executive.

• 1:29:09Speaker 04

  Boxing executive who also has bull riding reporting into me.

• 1:29:12Bill Simmons?

  Bull riding.

• 1:29:13Speaker 04

  So don't think.

• 1:29:14Bill Simmons?

  I forgot about the bull riding.

• 1:29:14Speaker 04

  Now that you're a big deal, don't think, you know, mid-level wrestling, or he's just mid-level boxing, also bad.

• 1:29:20Bill Simmons?

  We haven't had you in the studio yet. You do one interview a year, although you did two this year before WrestleMania, because you also were in the Las Vegas Review Journal.

• 1:29:29Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 1:29:29Bill Simmons?

  To impress your father.

• 1:29:30Speaker 04

  My, uh, my parents still lived in Las Vegas. My mother passed in 2019, all is good. Um, so he still lives there, still subscribes to the hard copy of the Review Journal, and he was the one person, when the article came out, who said, hey, there's a big article.

• 1:29:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like, wow.

• 1:29:47Speaker 04

  On you in the Review Journal today.

• 1:29:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, couldn't believe it. My dad does the same with the Globe. Hey, you were in the media notes in the Globe today, do you want me to save it? Like, no, I'm good.

• 1:29:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, save it and put it in that plastic sheet, you know.

• 1:29:59Bill Simmons?

  Put it in your scrapbook.

• 1:30:00Speaker 04

  By the way, just in terms of the studio, last year, your microphone, it was like circumference 42 inches.

• 1:30:08Bill Simmons?

  I know, we're taking it all seriously. We've had a very good last year. Our stuff looks good, we look like discount TV shows now, it's on Netflix from 4K HD.

• 1:30:17Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  It's all good.

• 1:30:18Speaker 04

  I've watched, the life seems to be pretty good since.

• 1:30:20Bill Simmons?

  Seems all right. Now, so you're in the Bad Back Club now, so welcome aboard on that.

• 1:30:24Speaker 04

  The Old Man Club, the Bad Back Club, ridiculous.

• 1:30:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27Speaker 04

  So I'm gonna try to sit with my core engaged.

• 1:30:29Bill Simmons?

  I told you my theory, though, it's, it's 95% stress. There could be like a traumatic, like you get in a car accident, or, you know, you're on a roller coaster and something, like some sort of. But for the most part, it's usually sitting habits and stress, which is what I tell everybody.

• 1:30:44Speaker 04

  But here's the only thing, though. So you and I have known each other for almost 20 years now.

• 1:30:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  I've never seen you externally stressed. Now, I don't know when kids are in a down, you know, if you have family and this, but you've never called me with some version of, I was stressed. I just think it's part of your life. I think whatever stresses.

• 1:31:03Bill Simmons?

  You get used to stress, but you have way more stress now because you're in charge of bull riding and WWE and your mid-level boxing executive. So this is the most stress you've had.

• 1:31:11Speaker 04

  Listen, this is, uh, it's an easy life compared to jobs you and I may have had growing up.

• 1:31:16Bill Simmons?

  That's true. All right.

• 1:31:17Speaker 04

  By the way, did I ever tell you my decision? So I went to public school in Las Vegas.

• 1:31:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Speaker 04

  Bonanza High School. You're like, I've never heard of that school. This is a public high school.

• 1:31:24Bill Simmons?

  It's called Bonanza High School?

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, all the old Vegas high schools were all Western themed. Rancho High School, Chaparral High School, Western High School, Bonanza High School.

• 1:31:34Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:31:34Speaker 04

  So that's just El Dorado High School. So that's what they all were. I was like, should I go to college? Should I not go to college? There was, you remember when you and I were younger, you'd look for a job in the classified ads?

• 1:31:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 04

  It said, you know, now hiring in 1992, I believe the minimum wage was $4.25 in Las Vegas.

• 1:31:55Speaker 04

  $15 an hour. Come work at the Marina Hotel while we transform it into the MGM.

• 1:32:01Bill Simmons?

  Ooh.

• 1:32:02Speaker 04

  It's no problem. I went down there. It was a kind of a construction job. They said, hey, you signed up. Okay. I said, what I need to do? They're like, you see that huge pile of rocks? I said, yeah. It's like you and the other guys need to move that pile like a mile away. And I was like, nah, left. And enrolled at UNLV. I was like, I was a busboy in high school and all this stuff. That was all fine. The movie, The Rocks thing, I'm like, this is too much for me.

• 1:32:29Bill Simmons?

  I have a similar experience. My buddy Jim Grady and I, we went and worked at some tent company the beginning of the summer, one summer, and I was one day out. I was driving home. I'm like, I am not going back. That's a, that's a one that I'm not doing that again.

• 1:32:44Speaker 04

  I had a job in high school, the busboy at the old Gold Coast Hotel in Las Vegas, which is an off-strip, you know, casino. First day, it's like at that time when we were younger, the managers role is kinda assholes.

• 1:32:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:57Speaker 04

  Right? Kid, you know, you're two minutes late, it's gonna be a big reflection on, you know, your future. And I was like, alright, I'll just quit.

• 1:33:05Bill Simmons?

  How's that sound?

• 1:33:06Speaker 04

  How's that sound? Just quit. You can have someone else plus your table. So you have many stories like that.

• 1:33:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember if we talked about this on the pod, but I don't even remember how you became an agent. Did you do the mailroom thing or did you back into it another way?

• 1:33:19Speaker 04

  I was a lawyer, served six or seven years.

• 1:33:20Bill Simmons?

  That's right. That's what it was.

• 1:33:21Speaker 04

  That Freddie Roach, Manny Pacquiao story.

• 1:33:23Bill Simmons?

  I remember now. I just had the amnesia.

• 1:33:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, because of Freddie and Manny, started going to a lot of the boxing matches, met Jim Lampley, met Max Kellerman.

• 1:33:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:33Speaker 04

  Who's in business with you now.

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 04

  And started representing those, Joe Testa Tor, met those boxing announcers, started representing them as a lawyer, and then went to become an agent in the sports media space.

• 1:33:46Bill Simmons?

  Those are usually the best agents that didn't start because they wanted to be an agent.

• 1:33:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have this thing also, and by the way, it would apply to Ben and to my children, Sonny and Natalie.

• 1:33:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  When I was an agent, if there were young people assistants who I liked, I'd always say, you know, where are you from? Anyone who answered, I'm from LA, I'd be like, yeah, but where? And it was Reseda, Sherman Oaks, you know.

• 1:34:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  Huntington. It was never Hancock Park, Brentwood. It's just different. Like, you know, perhaps your son goes to run a hedge fund or run a team or something like that, but most of the agents come from a little more working class.

• 1:34:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  The good agents, at least.

• 1:34:26Bill Simmons?

  I have a bunch of, normally I don't have the iPad with questions, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

• 1:34:31Speaker 04

  I see you have your Ali sweatshirt.

• 1:34:33Bill Simmons?

  I wore the Ali sweatshirt for you to get the boxing.

• 1:34:36Speaker 04

  Ali Gotash and boxing books?

• 1:34:38Bill Simmons?

  We'll start with the wrestling.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 1:34:39Bill Simmons?

  I wanna move into the whole armada that you guys have created with the combat sports, basically. But the wrestling, WrestleMania 42.

• 1:34:46Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 1:34:48Bill Simmons?

  Just seeing the 42 makes me feel super old. It's just kinda like, fuck, forty-two. Like, I remember every aspect of that week leading up to the first one, and now we're at forty-two. It's kinda jarring.

• 1:35:00Speaker 04

  There's also like-

• 1:35:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't like it.

• 1:35:02Speaker 04

  I compare it to WrestleMania I, which I watched from the L.A. Sports Arena on closed circuit. We were in Los Angeles that weekend. But I also compare it, like, people talk WrestleMania eighteen, and I'm like, wait a second, that's now twenty-four years ago?

• 1:35:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:35:20Speaker 04

  Right? It's those things where you read-

• 1:35:21Bill Simmons?

  Which one was eighteen?

• 1:35:22Speaker 04

  Eighteen was-

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  Was that Hulk and-

• 1:35:23Speaker 04

  Hogan Rock.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:25Speaker 04

  Right? But it's those things you read and like, you know, now if you look at, uh, two thousand and two, that would be like nineteen eighty-five, talking about nineteen sixty-two, or whatever the math was. Uh, and that makes me feel like, man, these, the years are flying by.

• 1:35:40Bill Simmons?

  The thing I really hate right now, Instagram just knows how to bring my confidence down. They do these things now where they show some, I don't know if it's A.I. or how they do it, but it's like an actress or an actor from the nineties, and it's them now, and then it's like, here's, you might remember me, and then it goes backwards, a montage of when they were young, and then it goes back to them looking like us now. And I always get really depressed.

• 1:36:04Speaker 04

  I, I just got some on Instagram last night, it was Andrew McCarthy.

• 1:36:08Bill Simmons?

  It was like one of those where it went backwards and forwards?

• 1:36:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't like this. I don't want those anymore.

• 1:36:13Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:36:14Bill Simmons?

  Uh, all right. Why Vegas for the second year in a row for WrestleMania?

• 1:36:17Speaker 04

  So, number one, we had a great experience last year, the Las Vegas Convention of Visitors Authority, led by a guy named Steve Hill, who's a terrific executive. Uh, I think I first noticed when the Super Bowl was there a couple of years ago. It was probably the most seamless Super Bowl I had seen.

• 1:36:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:34Speaker 04

  I think a lot of people were surprised by that. Having lived there for most of my, you know, pre-adult life, uh, it didn't surprise me at all, because there's no city that can handle that quantity of people-

• 1:36:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Speaker 04

  Uh, better than Las Vegas can. So, we set up WrestleMania last year, it was quite successful. We decided to go back-to-back, you know, fingers crossed, let's see-

• 1:36:54Bill Simmons?

  It's kinda built for it. It's built for the everyday people. It's built for like, what you guys have to deal with, flying executives and celebrities in and out.

• 1:37:02Speaker 04

  It's easy.

• 1:37:03Bill Simmons?

  Million hotels, there's other stuff going. You can turn it into a get-in-and-out same-day, or turn it into a weekend.

• 1:37:09Speaker 04

  And look, even if you look at the media business, the current media business now-

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:13Speaker 04

  The, the easy questions to answer. Where's Disney primarily located?

• 1:37:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 04

  Where's Netflix primarily located? Where's the ringer primarily located? L.A. You know, I think it was New York and I get for news it's still considered New York. Where's David?

• 1:37:29Bill Simmons?

  New York's tough because of the giant stadium piece.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  It's tough.

• 1:37:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's hard to get to.

• 1:37:33Speaker 04

  It's tough.

• 1:37:34Bill Simmons?

  I think L.A. works now with with SoFi. I think would be okay. I'm trying to think of some other ones.

• 1:37:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, we did SoFi in 2022. It worked out phenomenally well.

• 1:37:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Speaker 04

  I think there's three things. The West Coast undisputedly destroys the East Coast then.

• 1:37:48Bill Simmons?

  For WrestleMania?

• 1:37:49Speaker 04

  No, and just in general.

• 1:37:50Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:37:50Speaker 04

  One of them semi-related to WrestleMania. The start time and end time of sporting events destroys the East Coast. Mexican food and sushi.

• 1:38:01Bill Simmons?

  Some food sushi. Trying to think what else. I would I would throw weather in.

• 1:38:04Speaker 04

  Weather, the given, yes.

• 1:38:06Bill Simmons?

  The sun.

• 1:38:07Speaker 04

  The sun 75% of the year.

• 1:38:09Bill Simmons?

  My daughter FaceTimed me today. She was walking around wearing a T-shirt and shorts in Boston. It was like 70. No, 78. It's like, Dad.

• 1:38:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Bill Simmons?

  78. I'm like, cool. Welcome to the last couple of days of my life here.

• 1:38:22Speaker 04

  How about 78 here? You put the air conditioning on.

• 1:38:24Bill Simmons?

  Hot. So what are the big challenges now? Like you have this WrestleMania coming up where you're coming off. 24 was awesome, right? That's like a with a couple of years after COVID. Bring Cody Rhodes in. Just like one of those great signature WWE years. And then last year was the senior year, which I thought worked great.

• 1:38:44Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:38:45Bill Simmons?

  Now you're in 26. It's really tough in wrestling because everybody there wants to say, you're red hot again, or you're not as hot as you were last year. And it's just one of those two extremes. And it feels like the business right now is in the, yeah, it's not like it was last year. And that's kind of what happens. The ratings are a little bit down. The attendance is a little bit down. And then people just latch on all. So how much of it is real? And how much of it are you just not concerned about?

• 1:39:11Speaker 04

  So here's the good thing. A year ago, so right after WrestleMania last year, Triple H, who you know, and I got together and we said, okay, let's take a look at the future.

• 1:39:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:21Speaker 04

  Let's look at our top male superstars. Cena was obviously his retirement year. We have, and you tell me if you categorize these as our top men, Roman in some order. Roman.

• 1:39:32Bill Simmons?

  Roman, definitely.

• 1:39:33Speaker 04

  Cody, Punk, Seth.

• 1:39:37Speaker 04

  Brock. So if you look at their ages, it's forty. I would throw McIntyre in there, too. Yeah, put Drew in there. Yeah. And he adds to the narrative. Okay, they're all forty years or older. Right. So we said, all right, we gotta make sure we're preparing for the future here. We went down to our performance center to see Shawn Michaels and Matt Bloom, who run that on a day-to-day basis and run NXT, you know, with us. And we said, okay, let's take a look at the talent here. How come DX, for example, when it was first starting to pop, Triple H, I think, was like twenty-six? Yeah. Why is it taking longer? And Shawn said, there's one thing we could really use the company's help on. We need to be able to tour NXT.

• 1:40:19Speaker 04

  Because doing it from the studio every week, you don't get the authentic fan response that young wrestlers need to know if their work is working or not. Yeah. You know, it's a lot of this. Cause it's a different region is gonna respond differently. Correct. It's different. It's sort of like Randy Orton shows up in St. Louis, he's getting all the cheers in the world. He shows up in a different city, he doesn't. You need to know how to react to that. He said, we need to be able to take NXT on the road. Great, no problem. Give us a week. We came back to Shawn. Let's take it on the road, starting in a month or whatever it was. And then you saw the quickest acceleration of Obafemi. Yep. Trick Williams, Javon Evans, soon to be others coming up from NXT.

• 1:41:03Speaker 04

  And one of the matches I keep hearing people talk about is gonna be the opening match Sunday, which is Obafemi Brock Lesnar. Right. Right, so Obafemi is.

• 1:41:13Speaker 04

  That's main ESPN, right? That's main ESPN. Yeah. So first night of ESPN, uh, pardon me, first night of WrestleMania, the first hour is on ESPN2 and ESPN Unlimited. Second night, Sunday night, first hour is on ESPN and ESPN Unlimited. So Sunday night, we open with Obaf versus Brock. It's a match when Paul and I sat together with a number of other folks said, this seems to have a bit of a hot hand here.

• 1:41:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:38Speaker 04

  Let's start big.

• 1:41:39Bill Simmons?

  New versus old, lot of, lot of good stuff, lot of good angles.

• 1:41:43Speaker 04

  And, you know, I think Brock's work has been phenomenal. Obas work has been phenomenal. If you caught the go home show of Raw by any chance, Obas promo with Paul Heyman was phenomenal. So we, fingers crossed, right? But we think that's all working. So if we're a publicly traded company, part of a publicly traded company, the results are the results.

• 1:42:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:42:04Speaker 04

  Fingers crossed.

• 1:42:04Bill Simmons?

  But it's interesting what you're, you're hitting because that's always been, whenever there's been a wrestling renaissance, it's usually coming from a young group of people that maybe you weren't expecting. You didn't think were ready yet. You know, when it happened with Triple H and those guys in 96, 97, it happened because WCW was building like an all-star team of older guys. And by necessity WWE had to like, pass the torch to young people and hope they were ready, right?

• 1:42:31Speaker 04

  Think about this, you remember when they brought, WWE brought Sarge and Slaughter back in the late 90s.

• 1:42:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:37Speaker 04

  Who was sort of like a, a GM type personality and Triple H was really going from Hunter Hearst, Helmsley to Triple H. It was with Shawn, early DX. And they put on the, the sort of like construction mask, if you will, that had the windshield wipers because they would say Sarge would spit in their face when he would talk. And all of a sudden you saw DX pop. And then you saw stunning Steve Austin come over as the ringmaster. And I remember seeing him and being like, is that stunning Steve Austin? Now he's the ringmaster, like, I don't know if this is going to work. And then boom, it, Jake Roberts, King of the Ring.

• 1:43:11Bill Simmons?

  The Shield 15 years later was another one, right? Whenever the 15, 16 years later.

• 1:43:16Speaker 04

  Think about how quick.

• 1:43:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Speaker 04

  Those guys, they had it, they put in the work.

• 1:43:19Bill Simmons?

  They had it, you knew it immediately.

• 1:43:20Speaker 04

  Immediately, immediately. You and I.

• 1:43:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's a weird, yeah, we.

• 1:43:24Speaker 04

  We talked about it early.

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's one of those things where most of the times you kind of have to have it right away. I think very rarely are there the late bloomer guys who are like, you know, like, wow. This guy, this is happening now? Like LA Knight was kind of like that. He was older when it happened for him, but the most part, you kind of know early. It's like basketball.

• 1:43:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think even in broadcasting, even when, didn't you do a commercial early on? Was it with Kevin, Kenny Maine poolside?

• 1:43:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I did Main Street with Kenny Maine.

• 1:43:57Speaker 04

  But it was like, oh, who is that?

• 1:43:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Speaker 04

  Like you were saying things that other people weren't saying.

• 1:44:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Speaker 04

  And I was like, well, who's that? And then you'd start reading your columns. And for me, it was like referencing the Karate Kid, like in a sports column. Like I haven't seen that before. But Karate Kid, as you know, you're the one who first touted it. It's one of the handful of perfect movies. It doesn't mean.

• 1:44:17Bill Simmons?

  I like to think so.

• 1:44:19Speaker 04

  Tell me a flaw in that movie.

• 1:44:21Bill Simmons?

  I think it doesn't get enough credit for being a great eighties movie.

• 1:44:24Speaker 04

  Avildson doesn't get enough.

• 1:44:25Bill Simmons?

  Great sports movie and a great eighties movie and really well done.

• 1:44:28Speaker 04

  Avildson doesn't get enough credit? Maybe because Rocky is not perceived the way that it should be perceived?

• 1:44:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no, it's because of Karate Kid three. I think that's what killed Avildson.

• 1:44:37Speaker 04

  That can do it.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  He should have just taken his name off and pretended he was like.

• 1:44:41Speaker 04

  John X.

• 1:44:41Bill Simmons?

  John Jacobs.

• 1:44:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, the guy who did, uh, what was the Eddie Furlong, um, American History X. Remember he changed, the director changed his name or took his name off?

• 1:44:52Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, he took his name off.

• 1:44:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:44:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because Ed Norton was like in the director's thing.

• 1:44:56Speaker 04

  Avildson should have done that with, with three.

• 1:44:58Bill Simmons?

  You're a big, you're a big Rocky guy.

• 1:45:00Speaker 04

  Love.

• 1:45:02Bill Simmons?

  What's your, what are your one, two, three, four rankings?

• 1:45:06Speaker 04

  So second half of two is the best Rocky of all time. But the first half of two is a little slow.

• 1:45:13Bill Simmons?

  First half, first three fourths.

• 1:45:15Speaker 04

  I think, I think on rewatchables, one of your guys said, the moment she says when?

• 1:45:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 1:45:22Speaker 04

  Until the, it's.

• 1:45:23Bill Simmons?

  It's the best thirty minutes probably of all time.

• 1:45:26Speaker 04

  Phenomenal. Every scene, the music.

• 1:45:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:28Speaker 04

  The score and that, we know how great the score is, but somehow it's not remembered the way it should be.

• 1:45:32Bill Simmons?

  We talked about that on the pod about people cheering in the theater, which was the only time I've ever really seen that for real. Like people cheering like it was, they were at WrestleMania or something.

• 1:45:42Speaker 04

  How about also, and you have a number of phenomenal books here that then later became movies?

• 1:45:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 04

  How about going to the movies and it was sold out?

• 1:45:52Speaker 04

  Right. You'd go and you'd be like, okay, we want to go see Rocky II. Sold out. Well, when's the next show? You know, 11:30 PM. Okay. Well, what else? What else are you showing here? And you'd go see an alternative movie? It was tough.

• 1:46:04Bill Simmons?

  That's starting to come back with the IMAX, but you can still see like LA is probably an anomaly because they have so many theaters here, but. You see the, if the IMAX is sold out, you kind of have to, well, do the laser, I guess.

• 1:46:17Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 1:46:18Bill Simmons?

  But it's so it's a little, but I do feel like the, the movies are a little bit back, not like it was when we were growing up.

• 1:46:24Speaker 04

  But at least you know before you go. When we would go and you'd walk up and it's like so and so Rocky II sold out.

• 1:46:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. We can buy tickets.

• 1:46:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, at least you can buy, you know, in advance and can buy.

• 1:46:34Bill Simmons?

  You just did the Nick Khan thing where you, you moved away from my original question.

• 1:46:38Speaker 04

  What do you mean? We talked to Obah Brock?

• 1:46:40Bill Simmons?

  No, but we are, so the, the ebb and flow of the business, it's a little bit of a down right now, but it's not too far down. But it's, it's not as high as it was two years ago. So you think the key is build around the young guys because some, one of the criticisms is always that you don't do as many house shows now. Guys aren't on the road as much. There's real reasons for that. It's, it's because the, the way the business used to be, these guys would get run into the ground in five years.

• 1:47:07Speaker 04

  Think about every wrestling documentary you've ever seen.

• 1:47:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 04

  Usually about wrestlers in the eighties started off with, I was on the road 300 days a year.

• 1:47:16Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:47:17Speaker 04

  Right. It's no way. And then you saw the results of that. Forget family life. But you saw what people would do to make sure that their bodies could perform at that level.

• 1:47:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:26Speaker 04

  So, you know.

• 1:47:27Bill Simmons?

  That's like me right now.

• 1:47:29Speaker 04

  What do you mean?

• 1:47:29Bill Simmons?

  The things I have to do to get, you know, doing four podcasts a week. I really have to.

• 1:47:33Speaker 04

  Also, listen.

• 1:47:34Bill Simmons?

  People don't see what I'm doing.

• 1:47:35Speaker 04

  I understand. It's very hard. And by the way, because of our age, which we started off with, I'm sure you have a stretch man now.

• 1:47:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:41Speaker 04

  Which is always an awkward. Like connection to me, some man stretching my leg. I don't know.

• 1:47:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't have my own personal man stretcher, but I do find myself doing things I never thought I would have done in the past. Like watching TV, but making sure I'm sitting on the floor, just stretching out my tendons, just doing, doing this thing.

• 1:48:02Speaker 04

  I talked to a mutual friend of ours, Pete Bavacqua, who's the AD at Notre Dame. And just a random conversation a couple of months ago, he's like, hey, I just worked out. He was on the road. And I like, I'm like, how long did you stretch? And he's like, dude, I was the only guy in the gym. It was all young people. I'm stretching out, you know, this and that. I'm like, they're all looking at me saying, there's the old man.

• 1:48:22Bill Simmons?

  You know, I haven't talked to him in a while. He was the greatest guy as a high school kid. Like we all, he was younger than us, but we all loved him. And I totally wasn't surprised that he's super successful now.

• 1:48:34Speaker 04

  Love that guy.

• 1:48:35Bill Simmons?

  He had great people skills when he was like 15.

• 1:48:37Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 1:48:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:38Speaker 04

  Love that guy. Honest broker and in his dream job, which I always applaud people for.

• 1:48:44Bill Simmons?

  Do you think?

• 1:48:45Speaker 04

  Like you, by the way, how rich, how rich are you now? We haven't talked yet.

• 1:48:48Bill Simmons?

  I, I'm not the one that sells stock all the time. Like the, like I always see that.

• 1:48:52Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 1:48:53Bill Simmons?

  Sold more stock.

• 1:48:54Speaker 04

  How did we start this? A mid-level wrestling boxing executive with bull riding reporting incident.

• 1:49:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we, I would save the bull riding convo for the end.

• 1:49:04Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 1:49:04Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if people are gonna.

• 1:49:05Speaker 04

  Part of the reason I came here today is to try to take out a personal loan from you. Not that much money for you. 30, 40 million dollars.

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  That's fine.

• 1:49:12Speaker 04

  It's no big deal.

• 1:49:13Bill Simmons?

  I was never asked to invest.

• 1:49:15Speaker 04

  It's a polytrade company. Why don't you buy some stock?

• 1:49:18Bill Simmons?

  I actually, I was asked to invest. I don't know. When did, when did Ari do the whole UFC thing? It was like 10.

• 1:49:24Speaker 04

  2016. Why didn't you do that? You didn't believe.

• 1:49:28Bill Simmons?

  I didn't. I actually, I could have, cause it was, it was baby doll was in there and they asked Jimmy and, and so I actually looked at it. I really studied it and it's hilarious why I didn't invest, cause I, I should have. And I really believed in UFC and I thought it was going to keep getting bigger. And the reason I didn't invest was I came to the conclusion it was too dependent on meteorites deals. And if they didn't get the meteorites deals, the way they thought they were going to get the meteorites deals, it wouldn't have been worth anything. So I was like, I'm not doing it. I'm out.

• 1:50:00Speaker 04

  How'd that work out?

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  Terribly. It was a complete misread. It was actually like, the conclusion I landed on was the exact opposite of what happened. They were completely right. Meteorite deals were exploding. All of these great things were about to happen. And I was like, I don't know. I don't see it. I don't see the case.

• 1:50:17Speaker 04

  By the way, I passed on investing in Sweet Greens. I'm like, that's never gonna work. There's plenty of that on this end. On the UFC side, if you think about it, it's part of the opportunity we see in boxing.

• 1:50:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:29Speaker 04

  If, let's go back to 1984 for a moment. And you would know it better than I would, but this is off the top of my head. If I said to you, who are the most famous athletes in the country? Okay, so Jordan's still not pro. Bird, Magic, Joe Montana, let's say. And then a bunch of individual sports stars.

• 1:50:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:45Speaker 04

  McEnroe, Nicholas, Mary Lou Retton, Carl Lewis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Boom Boom Mancini, Evel Knievel.

• 1:50:53Bill Simmons?

  Chris Everett.

• 1:50:53Speaker 04

  Chris Everett, right? And then you fast forward a mere 10 years to 1994, and the leagues have become the leagues. The NBA is going crazy. The NFL is going crazy. The individual sports outside of WWE and subsequently outside of UFC, they all stayed the same. So the question, we know this, that people would always ask is, who's the heavyweight champion of the world? You would know it. I would know it now. And Usyk, most people don't know it. Who's the fastest man on the planet? The sanctioning bodies are ridiculous. The belts messed it up. I knew Marvin Hagler as the middleweight champion. I didn't know him as the WBC interim middleweight champion in recess. It's nonsense. It's absurd.

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  Max and I, when Max was here, we were talking about when there was that crazy super middleweight run, when we had all those super middleweights at the same time. And I forget, I think it was maybe Showtime.

• 1:51:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Bill Simmons?

  Had them all fighting each other. And that was one of the last times I felt like, oh, there's real structure to this.

• 1:51:54Speaker 04

  The super six.

• 1:51:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:55Speaker 04

  It was called in the best.

• 1:51:57Bill Simmons?

  Which seems like what everybody's trying to do now with boxing. And I, I think from a boxing standpoint, I have more choices month to month than I think I've ever had before.

• 1:52:07Speaker 04

  Look, it's Turkey Allshake is certainly trying to do that and has certainly done it. And put his money up and made fights that no one was going to make. So if you look at what the promoters were doing on their own, the boxing promoters, it was, well, let's just have our guy fight another one of our guys. And then finally, you'd get Errol Spence, who I give all the credit in the world to. Didn't have to give Terrence Crawford the opportunity. This was pre-Turkey, being involved in boxing. Knew that the fans wanted it, gave him the opportunity.

• 1:52:40Bill Simmons?

  But that's why we don't get that.

• 1:52:42Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:52:42Bill Simmons?

  Cause people point to Errol Spence and like, that's what, that's the worst case scenario.

• 1:52:47Speaker 04

  It's.

• 1:52:47Bill Simmons?

  You get absolutely obliterated by Bud.

• 1:52:50Speaker 04

  I understand.

• 1:52:51Bill Simmons?

  And then you don't have the same drawing power anymore.

• 1:52:53Speaker 04

  It's, it's no different. And this is not directed at you, and I know it's a young Patriots team, but the Patriots deserved to be in the Super Bowl. They got beat handily. So what?

• 1:53:03Bill Simmons?

  I'm, I'm at the point with it now where I wish we had lost in the AFC title game and never made the Super Bowl.

• 1:53:08Speaker 04

  You're hurt by the Super Bowl.

• 1:53:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, I just think it's setting off a chain of events. Now my coach is in a scandal. I have that going. Like, I just feel like we're, it's gonna be the year from hell. I'm already resigned to it.

• 1:53:19Speaker 04

  Not jinxing anything. You have the right QB.

• 1:53:21Bill Simmons?

  Have the right QB. Hopefully he's healthy.

• 1:53:23Speaker 04

  Yep, not jinxing.

• 1:53:24Bill Simmons?

  The boxing thing though, I, I feel like there's more awareness. But the thing is, I might only feel that way because I have a lot of people in my life who like boxing. So we're like, The Zone had a fight, you know, it had a card in England last week.

• 1:53:40Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:53:41Bill Simmons?

  Last Saturday. It was early. The Tyson Fury.

• 1:53:43Speaker 04

  Netflix, yep.

• 1:53:45Bill Simmons?

  Or Netflix. Sorry, Netflix.

• 1:53:48Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  Whoops.

• 1:53:49Speaker 04

  Employer of The Ringer.

• 1:53:51Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna leave that in.

• 1:53:52Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 1:53:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna edit that out. It's more my old age. Netflix had it.

• 1:53:57Speaker 04

  Jabe Spitzer, Bella, I don't know if you've heard of these people.

• 1:54:00Bill Simmons?

  The Zone was two weeks before. Netflix was last week and it was starting like 11 o'clock PT and, you know, but it was just, it just feels like every week there's something.

• 1:54:09Speaker 04

  Look, think about things that Turkey's getting right and separately Netflix is getting right. One of them is the selection of dates.

• 1:54:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:17Speaker 04

  So it used to be, if you remember, like Bo Holyfield, the Fan Man fight was in November.

• 1:54:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:24Speaker 04

  Remember when the Fan Man came in and they had to put like blankets and everything around Bo and Holyfield to stay warm? Outdoor venue, Caesar's Palace, Vegas in November, very cold at night, you know, for West Coast, certainly very cold. Like, why are you going so heavy during college football season? It's insane. And by the way, it's not just college football season, and that was, you know, November, but if you just look at the fall, okay, what are the four most popular sports in the United States if you bifurcate pro and?

• 1:54:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:52Speaker 04

  College. Okay, NFL, college football, NBA, college hoops, MLB having a bit of a renaissance right now, two strong World Series.

• 1:55:00Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 1:55:01Speaker 04

  So you're going with postseason baseball with a stacked Dodgers team, which, you know, when you get the big teams in it, it tends to matter, as you know.

• 1:55:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, October's a no-fly zone now for this stuff.

• 1:55:11Speaker 04

  Why would you go so? Boxing did it consistently.

• 1:55:13Bill Simmons?

  You talked about this the last time you were on, and I thought it was really smart how, in TKO, just in general, like UFC, just like, hey, let's rethink how we're approaching the calendar. Why is WrestleMania this weekend? Why can't UFC take advantage of this two-week window here in August where nothing's happening? Why can't we put a boxing card here? I feel like we're, like, it feels like the sports card, my dance card, weekend to weekend, is more filled than it used to be, instead of just the weekends where there's too much stuff and you're like, all right, I guess I'm gonna watch this instead of this.

• 1:55:48Speaker 04

  Totally. So a couple of examples of this?

• 1:55:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:50Speaker 04

  When Dana.

• 1:55:53Speaker 04

  Ari Shapiro and company made Mayweather McGregor.

• 1:55:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:00Speaker 04

  Triple G Canelo had already been announced for middle of September of that year for Mexican Independence Day weekend.

• 1:56:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 04

  And I remember speaking to Dana, I was not working with them at the time, speaking to him and he said, we're gonna go the last week of August, pre-Labor Day. And I said, hot in Vegas. He said, yeah. And? He said, you know, the Vegas routine, most people are gonna come in, they're gonna go to the pool.

• 1:56:24Bill Simmons?

  They're inside or at the pool or an air conditioning.

• 1:56:26Speaker 04

  You got it.

• 1:56:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Speaker 04

  And that fight, I think, is the highest grossing pay-per-view of all time, or second highest grossing gate after Mayweather-Pacquiao. And I was like, that's brilliant. When we all started together at WWE, which is now almost six years ago, coming out of COVID, we looked at our premium live events calendar, and we had one, I don't remember the month, you would probably remember the month. This is in 2021. And I asked the founder of the company, I said, why are we going up against Tom Brady's return with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers at New England? And he was like, I don't, I didn't, I don't know, like, what should we do? I said, spoof to Saturday night.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:57:06Speaker 04

  But I'd rather go up against Alabama LSU in its prime than Tom Brady's return to New England with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Great, do it. It was very easy to sort of make those changes, which we did. So even on WrestleMania, April 18th and 19th, two years ago in Philly, it was Final Four Weekend. That was the last deal we inherited.

• 1:57:27Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:28Speaker 04

  Why would you look at the Final Four this year? You had three, in my opinion, hot teams, Illinois too, so maybe four hot teams, but you had Hurley, you had, um, who beat them?

• 1:57:42Bill Simmons?

  Michigan, Arizona.

• 1:57:43Speaker 04

  Michigan, Arizona, Hurley, and Illinois. Right? Why would we want to go up against that?

• 1:57:48Bill Simmons?

  I've noticed a great weekend that everybody didn't realize was a great weekend, when they went to two weeks between AFC, NFC title games and the Super Bowl.

• 1:57:58Speaker 04

  So much better.

• 1:57:59Bill Simmons?

  There was that weekend between the two. That was basically a wide open weekend. You're just going against like basketball.

• 1:58:04Speaker 04

  Now called Royal Rumble Weekend.

• 1:58:06Bill Simmons?

  Exactly.

• 1:58:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:58:07Bill Simmons?

  But Royal Rumble was not always that weekend.

• 1:58:08Speaker 04

  No. Royal Rumble would go.

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  The Sunday of the two conference championships. And then we moved it to the Saturday because it's a wide open night.

• 1:58:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:20Speaker 04

  And then you quickly realize, well, you can't book an NFL stadium. Because every NFL team is hopeful that their team is in one of those two games. So, I don't know, Pro Bowl at the time was on at like noon Eastern or something, it was daytime event. So ninety percent of the country is still cold. People are used to watching sports on Sunday. People are used to.

• 1:58:42Bill Simmons?

  It's like the first dead weekend since late August.

• 1:58:45Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:58:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:46Speaker 04

  So why not do it then? Which we did and ratings skyrocketed.

• 1:58:50Bill Simmons?

  And then summer, some of the opportunities are. You gotta look and make sure there's not a men's or a women's World Cup. To make sure there's not an Olympics.

• 1:58:59Speaker 04

  This summer.

• 1:58:59Bill Simmons?

  If there is, you gotta avoid it. You don't want to go against the Olympics for any reason.

• 1:59:04Speaker 04

  So think about this, first weekend of May, always was a big boxing weekend. Oscar De La Hoya would fight on Cinco de Mayo weekend.

• 1:59:12Bill Simmons?

  Right, that's a Mexican Latino.

• 1:59:14Speaker 04

  It's kind of a made up like beer holiday, if you will, but it's a good time to go to Vegas. Weather's perfect, you know, this and that. It's also Kentucky Derby Saturday.

• 1:59:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:21Speaker 04

  So you have men and women sitting around a television, especially with the proliferation.

• 1:59:25Bill Simmons?

  He also has basketball and hockey.

• 1:59:28Speaker 04

  He also has basketball and hockey.

• 1:59:29Bill Simmons?

  The playoffs, like usually like huge game sixes, game sevens for both sports.

• 1:59:32Speaker 04

  Huge. Kentucky Derby is a three minute sporting event.

• 1:59:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:59:37Speaker 04

  So if men and women are together, okay, what do we want to do? We want to watch the NBA game if our team's not in it. There's a, oh, there's a big fight on TV. Great, let's order it. But why not do that with the Preakness, which even if you read, I'm sure you did, the news yesterday that, hey, the Preakness may move a week later. So instead of being two weeks after the Kentucky Derby, three weeks. Yeah, why would you not have done that years ago? Give the horses more of a chance to recover. Create more of an opportunity. One horse wins both races. Then you have a triple crown contender at the Belmont. Like, why would you not have done that? Horse racing, much like boxing, fragmented. This track owner does this, this one doesn't like that. There's no unification to it.

• 2:00:15Speaker 04

  So with Zuffa boxing, if we can replicate the version of a league, if you will.

• 2:00:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:23Speaker 04

  NBA, NHL, NFL, UFC, WWE, where the best fight the best. There's consistency of programming and you know, no one's going to duck anyone. Maybe we have a chance.

• 2:00:33Bill Simmons?

  You stole Connor Ben.

• 2:00:36Speaker 04

  What do you mean by stole?

• 2:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, you grabbed him, brought him to your, your team.

• 2:00:41Speaker 04

  It had to be done, one fight deal. I thought he looked good on Saturday night. There was some unintentional.

• 2:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Bad luck with the opponent. Yeah.

• 2:00:47Speaker 04

  Progress brought it, but that's part of the thing also.

• 2:00:49Bill Simmons?

  What did he have, like four injuries and?

• 2:00:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's gonna take a minute.

• 2:00:52Bill Simmons?

  He basically admitted after like, yeah, I was really hurt, but I felt like I had to fight anyway.

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  He didn't, he didn't have to fight, but yes.

• 2:00:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:58Speaker 04

  He's game. And look, it's part of the Zuffa legislation with the Muhammad Ali Enhancement Act is that insurance for fighters will kick in when training camp starts. Because as it's set up now, fighters only have fight night insurance.

• 2:01:13Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 2:01:13Speaker 04

  So if they get hurt seven weeks before, a lot of them will just go through camp hurt because they can't necessarily afford to go to the doctor and pay for it and all of that. It's got training insurance, small things like that. The minimums that someone can make per round to institute those so people aren't fighting. You know, here, here's 40 bucks. It's kind of like Rocky Balboa Spider Rico.

• 2:01:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:34Speaker 04

  Okay, it's $48, 24 year locker.

• 2:01:37Bill Simmons?

  In that fight.

• 2:01:37Speaker 04

  Took some liberties.

• 2:01:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Speaker 04

  And then talk shit to him after. Yeah. Didn't say, sorry, man. Spider Rico.

• 2:01:43Bill Simmons?

  So you're happy with how the boxing's going?

• 2:01:45Speaker 04

  I'm happy with how we started it, you know? Give it a couple of years, let's see where we are, but I'm not.

• 2:01:50Bill Simmons?

  You guys are feuding with Eddie Hearn already?

• 2:01:51Speaker 04

  We're not, we're not feuding with anybody.

• 2:01:53Bill Simmons?

  You were lobbing some grenades at him. He's lobbing grenades back. This is great.

• 2:01:57Speaker 04

  Listen, I don't know what the guy's talking about.

• 2:01:59Bill Simmons?

  From Tony Khan to Eddie Hearn. I like it.

• 2:02:01Speaker 04

  By the way, there's similarities between the two.

• 2:02:03Bill Simmons?

  What are the similarities?

• 2:02:05Speaker 04

  They both work for their dads.

• 2:02:09Speaker 04

  Which, you know, by the way, I'm gonna give Ben Simmons some strong advice here.

• 2:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:15Speaker 04

  Whatever he decides to do with his life, do not try to be a podcaster.

• 2:02:19Bill Simmons?

  Ben Simmons does not want to work for me. That will not happen.

• 2:02:22Speaker 04

  Why, why?

• 2:02:23Bill Simmons?

  He wants to forge his own way.

• 2:02:24Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:02:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:26Speaker 04

  That's the way it should be.

• 2:02:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 04

  Right? You do everything you can as his father to set him up in the world. By the way, he should use your relationships. He should do whatever he can. It's a bit of a dated reference. Frank Sinatra Jr. should have done anything other than be a crooner.

• 2:02:40Bill Simmons?

  That was the worst case scenario.

• 2:02:41Speaker 04

  Correct. He should have said, hey dad, I want to be a music manager. Can you introduce me to people? Sure. I want to book venues and sure, this and that. Ben Simmons should not be a podcaster, nor will he be.

• 2:02:51Bill Simmons?

  I just read something, I think it was, I want to say it was Bill Gates, but it was somebody like that who had their kids when they turned 21 and, or they're going to, they're in that range and he, and he met them. They had dinner. And he was like, I'm just here to tell you, you're not going to inherit any of my money. I'm going to leave each of you $10 million that I want you to forge your own way. And that's it. You're not getting anything else.

• 2:03:16Speaker 04

  I get it. But by the way, I read in and.

• 2:03:18Bill Simmons?

  You don't have to worry about that because Sonny's going to be like president.

• 2:03:21Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 2:03:21Bill Simmons?

  Sonny's already like a freaking mafia head. Like you can see him at these games. He's shaking. People are coming up to him. It's like watching Michael Corleone in Godfather two.

• 2:03:30Speaker 04

  Well, I listen, I appreciate the Michael reference, especially since we named him Sonny in, uh, in, in two especially.

• 2:03:37Speaker 04

  He's definitely not going to come work for me, nor will our daughter Natalie.

• 2:03:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Speaker 04

  They're going to, and of course I will try to help them get into.

• 2:03:45Bill Simmons?

  I could see Sonny running into boxing. Who knows?

• 2:03:48Speaker 04

  If, if he's passionate about it and he earns his way in. And by the way, there hasn't been a weekend where I've traveled for wrestling or boxing where he has not traveled with me.

• 2:03:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:58Speaker 04

  And you, you remember you and I were at WrestleMania 2016. He's 10.

• 2:04:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:04Speaker 04

  WrestleMania 2016, we were both at AT&T Stadium for WrestleMania 2016. And you sent me a video of, so Ben's 18 now?

• 2:04:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Ben doing all the moves and the.

• 2:04:15Speaker 04

  She was eight.

• 2:04:16Bill Simmons?

  It's on my Instagram.

• 2:04:17Speaker 04

  That's like peak slamming pillows.

• 2:04:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:20Speaker 04

  Wanting to spear you, I'm sure, you know, this and that.

• 2:04:23Bill Simmons?

  I told you this, eight to 10 is the peak little boy age.

• 2:04:27Speaker 04

  It's amazing.

• 2:04:27Bill Simmons?

  Eight, nine, 10, home run.

• 2:04:29Speaker 04

  It's amazing.

• 2:04:30Bill Simmons?

  They're the best.

• 2:04:31Speaker 04

  Comes with me on the weekend, can go in any meeting that I'm in. There's one rule. You can't talk.

• 2:04:38Speaker 04

  Because to me, he hasn't earned his right.

• 2:04:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:04:40Speaker 04

  To voice his opinion. So he takes notes for me.

• 2:04:44Bill Simmons?

  That's good. He listens.

• 2:04:46Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 2:04:46Bill Simmons?

  Absorbs it.

• 2:04:47Speaker 04

  Correct. Listen, absorb it. Be in the room that your father has earned his way into. But don't think like you're here because of you.

• 2:04:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:57Speaker 04

  And I found in combat sports, when you have kids whose parents are somehow associated with it, in it. I haven't seen it work. It might work one day. I haven't seen it work.

• 2:05:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, you being, you inherited a company that had. Vince, with his two kids working, but the daughter Stephanie was really good. Wired a lot like Vince.

• 2:05:20Speaker 04

  Phenomenal.

• 2:05:21Bill Simmons?

  The son really wanted to run the business in his own and that was some of what we did the documentary about. This really interesting dynamic of father, son.

• 2:05:30Speaker 04

  Didn't you go to the same high school as him?

• 2:05:32Bill Simmons?

  We lived in the same city when I was in high school, but we didn't go to the same high school.

• 2:05:36Speaker 04

  Got it.

• 2:05:36Bill Simmons?

  But yeah.

• 2:05:37Speaker 04

  Okay, got it.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

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• 2:06:38Bill Simmons?

  One boxing piece that developed in 2026 was obviously the big conflict in the Middle East that's still going and a lot of the money for some of the stuff you guys were doing, other things we're doing was tied up over there. You had plans to go over there, like what hap- like is this just a wait, play it by ear? Like not a fun topic, but I have to ask.

• 2:06:57Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, of course. And by the way, just so all the listeners and viewers know, your guest house, bigger than my real house.

• 2:07:04Bill Simmons?

  That's true.

• 2:07:05Speaker 04

  It's true. This room bigger than master bedroom of my house. So I've come to stay here for a while.

• 2:07:10Bill Simmons?

  All right. You're always invited.

• 2:07:12Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:07:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, it's a tricky situation there. Keep in mind, I'm the child of Iranian immigrants.

• 2:07:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Speaker 04

  And, you know, a little bit different than most Iranians in the United States in that my dad came in 1952, when he was five. So in essence, I'm a little more second generation than first. So I don't have family that I've ever met who's there. But obviously, monitoring the situation on the business side and on simply the political side. Number one, we'd never send our wrestlers, our crew, anybody into an unsafe environment. But hopefully, this thing clears up in the not-too-distant future. And I understand, hope is not a strategy. So it's a wait-and-see approach and, you know.

• 2:07:52Bill Simmons?

  Did it affect like all the plans you guys had for the next three to five years? It must have at least a little bit, right?

• 2:07:57Speaker 04

  No, I think, you know, Turkey, as you know, had the Tyson Fury co-main event, Connor Ben, Ben With Us fight on Netflix, not a different carrier, this past weekend from London.

• 2:08:10Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:08:11Speaker 04

  So that fight made, or from Tottenham, so that fight made sense at Tottenham Stadium. And, you know, we'll work around it and work through it. But nothing's been affected thus far.

• 2:08:21Bill Simmons?

  So you're dealing with all these different places now, right? That for WWE, the boxing, you don't deal with the UFC as much, but then everyone's settled on their partners, but there's a big courting process sometimes with.

• 2:08:35Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:08:35Bill Simmons?

  What, are people better or worse at this than they were 15, 20 years ago? When you had like during like the John Skipper era? And now you have like Netflix has Bella and Gabe and all those people. And ESPN has Jimmy Vitar and Burke and Paramount has all their people. And like, what's, what's different about the whole process than the 2000s? Anything?

• 2:08:58Speaker 04

  Well, I think, look, I, I happen to be in a bit of a more senior seat than I was, you know, early 2000s.

• 2:09:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:05Speaker 04

  So in dealing with Bella, Gabe, Brandon Rig, who lives down the street from here, by the way. That means it's a very.

• 2:09:12Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for telling everybody.

• 2:09:13Speaker 04

  Affluent.

• 2:09:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 04

  Neighborhood.

• 2:09:14Bill Simmons?

  Thanks.

• 2:09:15Speaker 04

  Affluent.

• 2:09:15Bill Simmons?

  Great.

• 2:09:16Speaker 04

  Brandon Rig, who, by the way, I've said this many, many times. Told me and Stephanie McMahon pre-COVID. I don't know that Netflix ever gets in a live, but if they do, you should line up your international media rights. Because Netflix is not going to do a deal with WWE that says, hey, great news. We have WWE in three countries. So at that time, we started putting the process in place where the international rights would all time out with the US rights and boom, the Netflix deal a year and change ago, which has been a game changer for WWE. So they're phenomenal. You got new leadership at Disney with Josh Tomorrow. You know, the time was obviously right for Bob. He chose, in essence, Bob Iger, his timing and left quickly.

• 2:09:59Bill Simmons?

  The time was right in 2020.

• 2:10:03Speaker 04

  Listen, it depends on the successor.

• 2:10:04Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes it's hard to leave.

• 2:10:06Speaker 04

  Look, I'll tell you this. If the coach of your favorite team had decided,

• 2:10:14Speaker 04

  I'm just going to be a broadcaster and shut it down. And if the person who was the president before the current president had said, I'm just going to be a one-term president.

• 2:10:24Speaker 04

  I think they'd both be remembered far differently than they're currently remembered.

• 2:10:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:28Speaker 04

  So it's important that you get out of it before it gets out of you. And that's something we'll have to hold each other to in like 20 years.

• 2:10:39Bill Simmons?

  It's tough. I totally see it.

• 2:10:40Speaker 04

  It's tough.

• 2:10:41Bill Simmons?

  Like even somebody like Lorne Michaels now, he's still producing SNL. He's in his 80s.

• 2:10:46Speaker 04

  It's also like when you've worked hard, like you have, like, what are you going to do every day?

• 2:10:51Bill Simmons?

  That's what, uh, I still love what I do and I still feel like I'm good at it. I don't know five years from now, if like, I did. The question for me is how would you know if the signs were there? That you weren't as good? Who, who, who in your life would tell you? Hey, you're not as good. I don't, I don't think that conversation is ever happening with anybody. But I've noticed like, I really thought about a lot with Stern. Stern was the first one that I really felt like I had a courtside seat to. No pun intended.

• 2:11:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:11:20Bill Simmons?

  Of just like really watching how he ran everything. And then really feeling like he was starting to lose control of the narrative a little bit. The last couple of years he was there and he couldn't see it.

• 2:11:30Speaker 04

  But by the way.

• 2:11:30Bill Simmons?

  And I think it affected his legacy a little bit.

• 2:11:33Speaker 04

  To me in business, there's pirates and there's armadas. Stern was a pirate.

• 2:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:39Speaker 04

  Right. Hey, I'm coming to Los Angeles. I'm gonna kick Mark and Brian's ass, or whoever it was at the time.

• 2:11:44Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna chew them out.

• 2:11:45Speaker 04

  Correct. And then city by city.

• 2:11:46Bill Simmons?

  You motherfuckers. Yeah.

• 2:11:48Speaker 04

  And then you think about the stuttering John stuff at that time, way ahead of the game.

• 2:11:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:52Speaker 04

  Just crushing everybody and the things they would talk about and the character names, like way ahead. And then all of a sudden, the pirate became the armada. And to me, when that happens, you usually see a little slippage. The pirates need to stay the pirates.

• 2:12:08Bill Simmons?

  Wait, you're talking about Howard Stern.

• 2:12:11Speaker 04

  Who are you talking about?

• 2:12:11Bill Simmons?

  I was talking about David Stern.

• 2:12:13Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm strike. I love Howard Stern. He hasn't slipped at all. You tell me, is Howard Stern, has this, uh?

• 2:12:20Bill Simmons?

  I, I would say he's another one.

• 2:12:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:12:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's an interesting one. I did. I mean, that's a good, another good example.

• 2:12:27Speaker 04

  So, and by the way, people, people who defend him may say, well, no, you know, it's a smaller universe now. I don't know.

• 2:12:34Bill Simmons?

  That's hilarious that I was talking about David Stern. You were talking about Howard Stern. But the conversation, if you did a transcript, it seemed like we both understood what the other one was saying. Maybe not a good sign for either legacy.

• 2:12:45Speaker 04

  Right. Listen, if there even is a legacy. By the way, Dana White and I, at times, I'll say, hey, they're entering championship rounds. He thinks fifth round UFC.

• 2:12:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, right.

• 2:12:55Speaker 04

  Right now, he obviously thinks, you know, 12th round, you know, boxing as well. But e- even if you look at the vernacular of boxing and the falloff on it, you still hear it. This is like a heavyweight championship fight.

• 2:13:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:05Speaker 04

  You know, uh, he's taking an eight count. You know, you can run, but you can't hide. Then you hear the UFC come into the vernacular where everybody uses tap out. Yeah, I'm gonna tap out. You know, this and that. And other, you know, sort of lingo introduced by the UFC into the American culture. Became part of the zeitgeist. It's part of the zeitgeist. Boxing, we'll see if we can get it back in. But yeah, we were talking about two different Sterns.

• 2:13:26Bill Simmons?

  Maybe same issue.

• 2:13:30Bill Simmons?

  One thing with that, I think the difference in 2026, I really noticed this with Amazon doing the NBA this year. I have no dog in this race. I don't care who wins. I just want to enjoy sports. But I think with Amazon, the most interesting piece to me was that Saturday afternoon game they had. And Sacramento, Denver was one a couple of weeks ago, but they would have it. It'd be like one o'clock PT. Right? So four o'clock ET, so late afternoon. But then overseas.

• 2:13:58Bill Simmons?

  Primetime, basically. It's on like nine o'clock. So you have this Wemby Joker game. And now I'm in all these different countries with it. And if, if I'm the NBA, I'm like, this is fucking incredible. This is so, whatever this is, is where we need to go if we're going to grow the game. Now, the flip side is all the playing, we're taping this on a Tuesday. All the playing games are on Amazon.

• 2:14:20Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:14:21Bill Simmons?

  Which is a good thing because I think they do a good job. It's a bad thing because I think there's a lot of people who A, don't realize they're on Amazon. And B, maybe don't have Amazon and are going to be like, well, wait, what about? I don't want to get Amazon. What hap-? So there's a little bit of that and I want to see how that shakes out over the next couple of years.

• 2:14:39Speaker 04

  But by the way, analogous to that, when the NFL started doing the European games.

• 2:14:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:45Speaker 04

  I never believed it was solely for the purpose of, oh, we want to develop a European fan base. I thought it was to develop a fourth Sunday window. So if you say on the East Coast, well, you know, 10 a.m. Eastern, that would be really early. You live in LA, I live in LA, 10 a.m. Pacific, you're up.

• 2:15:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:00Speaker 04

  Watching football. And if you say, well, 7 a.m. Pacific, you know, on the West Coast, that would be far too early. If you look at the ratings and share in Hawaii and Alaska, they watch it just as much as the rest of the country watches it. So I always believed it was to create a fourth window, which it seems like it's heading towards. In addition to establishing international fans, which I think the NFL, first mover in that space, they've done phenomenal work.

• 2:15:24Bill Simmons?

  That's the only one you really haven't, we could probably talk about pretty freely because you're never going to cross paths with them, right? The NFL? Like just how they.

• 2:15:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, we can talk about anything freely.

• 2:15:34Bill Simmons?

  No, but I think they're fascinating because they're the only entity that sells games, matches, events, whatever. That can basically do whatever they want and people just have to take a big gulp and then put up with it, right? I don't know what they're capable of, but this deal they're about to do with now that the Paramount merger and all that stuff has allowed them to basically blow up some of their deals, reconsider them.

• 2:16:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm prepared for anything like the Friday night rule with the high schools. Are they going to go after that? Are they going to add 18 games with two bye weeks and stretch the Super Bowl out and basically go into February? Yeah, probably. Are they going to have an international game every week? They might. Are they going to just add four more teams out of nowhere? I don't know. Are they going to be on seven different platforms? Maybe like the WNBA is on seven broadcast partners. Like to me, that means the NFL could do it. So could, could it just basically be everybody gets a small piece of this and they're just like, this is the price, man. You're the painter or not. We don't want to hear it. It seems like that's where we're headed.

• 2:16:44Speaker 04

  Everything you laid out has or could happen with the NFL. I'd also, if I was college football and you hear the conversations about, you know, executive order for NIL and this and that and yeah, second most popular sport, as we just talked about in the United States, but makes the fifth most amount of money. Yeah, I'd be looking at that Saturday night and saying, we, we know the NFL jumps on Saturdays as soon as college football regular season winds down, you know, post Heisman weekend.

• 2:17:08Bill Simmons?

  Being worried about being exclusive on Saturday night.

• 2:17:12Speaker 04

  They did it with the college football playoff.

• 2:17:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:15Speaker 04

  You know, hey, we're going to go on Saturday, the NFL games and the playoff, I think went head to head on.

• 2:17:20Bill Simmons?

  Once they did that, that opened the door for the NFL to be like, okay, guys, I guess, I guess we're battling.

• 2:17:27Speaker 04

  By the, think about this also.

• 2:17:30Speaker 04

  We discussed this internally. That does not mean it was our exclusive idea. Just so we're clear. Myself, Shapiro, Dana, Ari, a number of other folks. Black Friday. Amazing day. Black Friday is no different than Thanksgiving Day for a lot of people. Okay, some people go line up at 3am to go, you know, this and that. But for the most part, people are sitting around with food and there's nothing to watch. So the NFL puts a Black Friday game on and now there's rumors that they're going to add a second Black Friday game.

• 2:18:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's a rumor of the Wednesday before Thanksgiving game.

• 2:18:05Speaker 04

  You said, we, we discussed internally also, and again, I'm not suggesting it was our exclusive idea. That night before Thanksgiving, there's a lot of people at home. Like, maybe that's a good night for boxing. And

• 2:18:18Bill Simmons?

  It's a good night for anything.

• 2:18:19Speaker 04

  Anything.

• 2:18:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:20Speaker 04

  There's nothing on.

• 2:18:21Bill Simmons?

  That's like Netflix, I think that was a Stranger Things night for them, one of those times. Or somebody released a major TV show that night.

• 2:18:28Speaker 04

  Christmas Eve.

• 2:18:29Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:18:30Speaker 04

  If Christmas Day, if you have five NBA games and the NFL said, oh, we're gonna go take that also and put three NFL, why would there not be sports on Christmas Eve? So there's a lot of these nights. I, I think what happened was the traditional thinkers would say, oh, people are traveling. The reality is, you know, and my phone's off to the side. You have an iPad there, we can watch whatever we want, wherever we want. So.

• 2:18:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, when you're traveling, you're actually still the audience. Whereas I think in the eighties, it was a little different. If I went to like Acapulco with my family in nineteen eighty-eight, if the hotel didn't have the channel, that was it.

• 2:19:07Speaker 04

  By the way, when Ronda Rousey fought Holly Holm in their rematch, it was December of whatever year that was.

• 2:19:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:14Speaker 04

  And I was in Mexico with my family and I looked up what bar has the UFC and we went to go watch the fight. Now that's seven, eight, nine years ago.

• 2:19:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, now you're just on an iPad.

• 2:19:24Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 2:19:25Bill Simmons?

  Or you're streaming it to your hotel TV.

• 2:19:27Speaker 04

  So even, even Fourth of July weekend, different this year, two hundred fiftieth anniversary. Fourth of July is actually a Saturday.

• 2:19:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:34Speaker 04

  So there's a lot of free, you know, entertainment out there. But that weekend, and in my prior profession, we really pushed ESPN to have a boxing match on that weekend from Australia. That weekend is wide open for viewership, so open that people watch the hot dog eating contest. There's nothing on, so WWE.

• 2:19:52Bill Simmons?

  What does that tell you?

• 2:19:53Speaker 04

  It's again, summertime for us, wide open.

• 2:19:58Bill Simmons?

  How about last weekend of June? Cause the draft, they even moved it up, I think even closer to the finals for the NBA. So now it's like that last weekend has zero.

• 2:20:08Speaker 04

  Shockingly, you would say that. We have a P L E on June twenty-seven.

• 2:20:12Bill Simmons?

  There you go.

• 2:20:13Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 2:20:14Bill Simmons?

  Um, what are you the most excited about for WrestleMania?

• 2:20:20Speaker 04

  I think Roman Punk is really interesting to me. I think.

• 2:20:23Bill Simmons?

  Just from a career versus career standpoint?

• 2:20:25Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think, you know, Punk said it again on the Go Home Show. This is my first one on one WrestleMania main event match. You've had Roman several. And, you know, obviously Punk left for a while and, you know, came back and has done phenomenal work, you know, with us.

• 2:20:42Bill Simmons?

  That was a coup for you because I would have voted no on that one.

• 2:20:46Speaker 04

  You know, it's, it's interesting though, like you've dealt with quote unquote talent. You may be quote unquote talent. At one point, one of your employers may have said, oh, he's difficult. Like, I never found you difficult. Like, what's difficult?

• 2:21:00Bill Simmons?

  I had the last laugh on that one.

• 2:21:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, look at your fucking house, dude.

• 2:21:03Bill Simmons?

  Look at, no, but it's just like the difficult thing. It's like, all right, so only one company thought I was difficult. And yet all these other people have also had the exact same issues with that company. Maybe it's the company.

• 2:21:16Speaker 04

  Agreed. So even on, on Punk, like, okay, when he was in his twenties, he said certain things that, you know, he shouldn't have said. What ambitious guy didn't, what ambitious man or woman didn't do that?

• 2:21:29Bill Simmons?

  But I, I get, I get where you're going for here. I do think even he would admit, I'm a lot more humbled from some of the stuff that's happened to me. I see things from a different perspective. If I go back, I maybe would have done some stuff differently. He's been pretty open talking about that.

• 2:21:44Speaker 04

  Sure. And look, maybe that applies to you too. Maybe it applies to me also, things I did earlier in my career that I say to myself, like, geez.

• 2:21:51Bill Simmons?

  Like, could I have been a better teammate, things like that?

• 2:21:53Speaker 04

  Like, those a little aggressive or, you know, whatever it was. But I'd always rather have that.

• 2:21:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:58Speaker 04

  Like, hey, let's rein it in a little bit than go be more aggressive. Because that never works.

• 2:22:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:22:03Speaker 04

  You can never get anyone to do that.

• 2:22:05Bill Simmons?

  Punk's at like the same stage that Justin Rose was at at the Masters just now. Justin Rose is 45. I picked him to win the Masters and he almost did. He, he kind of blew it in the final nine. But he's 45. And in golf years, you're kind of near the end at that point. You can, you know, maybe still make a run in a, in a major until about 50. But for the most part, you're, you're probably still a real threat until 45, 46. Wrestling's a little, the, little similar. Like, you can still do what Cena did and be really careful about how you schedule out stuff. But to be a main event, show up all the time performer. I don't know what the expiration date is, but it's probably somewhere around his age now, right? Middle, late 40s?

• 2:22:49Speaker 04

  The good thing with him and with Brock and with Cena last year is they've all been quite responsible in their life.

• 2:22:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:59Speaker 04

  So the conversation of, hey, you, Brock, or now Punk, you have to tell us when you start feeling like, I'm not going the way that I used to go.

• 2:23:10Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:23:11Speaker 04

  Tell us and let's figure out, you know, something else for you. Again, you have to leave it before it leaves you. So far, now Punk tore his tricep in his first Royal Rumble back.

• 2:23:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:22Speaker 04

  Okay, came back nine months later. So far, you know, he's performed at an A plus level, fingers crossed.

• 2:23:27Bill Simmons?

  He's had some bad luck injuries this decade.

• 2:23:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, Braun Breaker went down, then Seth went down.

• 2:23:32Bill Simmons?

  Braun Breaker went down, I mean, was it true he was gonna be in a major Saturday or Sunday?

• 2:23:38Speaker 04

  Well, listen.

• 2:23:38Bill Simmons?

  Seems like it, right?

• 2:23:39Speaker 04

  There was a major push behind him, that was evident. And, you know, we hadn't finalized, you know, WrestleMania matches or order of matches at that moment. But you saw Seth come back from the fake injury, which was one of the greatest works of all time, in my opinion. It worked. He even went kayfabe like with his young daughter.

• 2:23:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:59Speaker 04

  You know, it worked. And then he came back and really got injured. And then Braun got injured. And it's something, you know, we're consistently having to deal with like any other sports franchise. And it can change the whole season. You just saw with the Lakers.

• 2:24:12Bill Simmons?

  Who's the, who's the biggest WWE star in 2033?

• 2:24:17Speaker 04

  I think there's a shot for a couple of people. I think, gee, my Rhea is in her late twenties, Rhea Ripley.

• 2:24:24Bill Simmons?

  She's amazing.

• 2:24:25Speaker 04

  She's amazing.

• 2:24:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, she's, she's, she has a chance.

• 2:24:31Speaker 04

  She has a chance. She's already up there.

• 2:24:32Bill Simmons?

  She also passes the, when you're in the room test. Does this person feel like a major person just walked down the runway into the ring?

• 2:24:41Speaker 04

  No question, it's, yeah.

• 2:24:43Bill Simmons?

  Not a long list for that.

• 2:24:44Speaker 04

  So she's in her twenties.

• 2:24:46Bill Simmons?

  Roman always had that.

• 2:24:47Speaker 04

  Always.

• 2:24:48Bill Simmons?

  That was, and that was probably why I've been stuck with him even when the fans kind of tired. Like, you could feel it in the room, like he had something, you knew it.

• 2:24:55Speaker 04

  Listen. There's certain guys who come in the room and everyone comes, certain men and women who come in the room and everyone comes to them. And then there's other people who have to go up to everybody.

• 2:25:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:05Speaker 04

  So with Rhea, with Roman, assume everyone.

• 2:25:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, when I say the room, I'm talking about an 80,000 seat football stadium. But it's, you can't really explain it until you see it. Hogan was the number one all time for that.

• 2:25:17Speaker 04

  As soon as he would appear.

• 2:25:19Bill Simmons?

  Actually, Andre probably was. One of those two.

• 2:25:22Speaker 04

  I always feel like Andre was, even though we've seen so many of his matches, he was like right when I was getting into it.

• 2:25:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:27Speaker 04

  So.

• 2:25:28Bill Simmons?

  But if you're there in 1980 and he's walking into Shea Stadium, it's the most riveting thing you've ever seen.

• 2:25:33Speaker 04

  Were you shocked and or disappointed or hurt when you then saw videos of Hogan previously slamming Andre at Shea Stadium? Or did you know that?

• 2:25:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no, we knew about that. Well, even when we did the documentary, we knew, because they toured together for like a year in, what was it, 80 or 81? And wrestled in Japan. Like, there's a lot of evidence of that.

• 2:25:55Speaker 04

  So we're a couple of years apart.

• 2:25:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:57Speaker 04

  Just a couple of years. But when you're 12 and someone's like 16, that's a big difference. So when I was watching, first of all, when Patera and Stud cut Andre's hair, like, I couldn't sleep. That was, maybe I was eight or seven or eight. Like, that was like shocking.

• 2:26:14Bill Simmons?

  Tough one.

• 2:26:14Speaker 04

  And then when Bundy broke Hogan's ribs, I think so Hogan could go to Japan. I remember like, sleepless, like, oh my God, I can't believe he's.

• 2:26:22Bill Simmons?

  My first one was Killer Khan breaking Andre's leg, which.

• 2:26:26Speaker 04

  Wild.

• 2:26:27Bill Simmons?

  Andre broke his leg, but then they said Killer Khan did it. They got a whole awesome angle out of it. And that was a great one. Because Andre, because Andre was laid up. He did break his leg. You never answered my 30, my 2033 question.

• 2:26:40Speaker 04

  Rhea?

• 2:26:42Speaker 04

  I'm high on Logan Paul.

• 2:26:44Bill Simmons?

  He's pretty good.

• 2:26:45Speaker 04

  He's a good dude. And by the way, he puts in the work. So one thing.

• 2:26:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, what's in it ultimately like for him? That's what he wants to be is to be in this business because it seems like he's trying to do so many different things.

• 2:26:58Speaker 04

  I think it's part of what he wants to be.

• 2:27:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:00Speaker 04

  On a full time basis, he's full time with us now and yeah, he does the card, Rip It's and the Pokemon stuff and his podcast.

• 2:27:07Bill Simmons?

  How old is he now?

• 2:27:08Speaker 04

  Through phonetics, he's just turned 30.

• 2:27:11Bill Simmons?

  Okay, that's good.

• 2:27:12Speaker 04

  So high on Logan, I'm high on Braun.

• 2:27:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:16Speaker 04

  It, we cannot rush it though. Got to sort of let him develop at his own pace. And he's an excellent athlete who obviously grew up in the wrestling business, but let it develop at its own pace, which we're all on the same page about. I think all three of those, Obah's an obvious one. I'm high on Trick. I like the fact that he's an SCC athlete.

• 2:27:37Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 2:27:38Speaker 04

  I like the fact that he sort of inherently understands media. I like the fact, I always look for people whose inner voice matches their outer voice. I look for that in wrestlers, I look for it in political people.

• 2:27:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:50Speaker 04

  You know, if your inner voice matches your outer voice, you have a shot. Trick Williams is Trick Williams. So I like that.

• 2:27:57Bill Simmons?

  How much time do you spend talking to Triple H about this? About like, kind of, what do you think?

• 2:28:04Speaker 04

  A lot.

• 2:28:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would imagine this is most of the conversation. That is similar from some of the conversations I have in life, trying to figure out different arcs or different people we have or we're interested in.

• 2:28:14Speaker 04

  But what's working on, on your business? Why did that not work?

• 2:28:18Bill Simmons?

  It's like those two people together, there's something there.

• 2:28:21Speaker 04

  It's also similar to our business. You gotta go, your frequency is heavy.

• 2:28:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:28Speaker 04

  Like if, if you, tough to get an audience this way, but if you said, okay, I only have to do, you know, 12 podcasts a year.

• 2:28:36Bill Simmons?

  No, you have to be in the mix.

• 2:28:37Speaker 04

  Correct, you gotta go every week.

• 2:28:39Bill Simmons?

  The best ones though are when you think it hasn't happened yet, but you're convinced it's gonna happen. Cause we, we have, like, not to single pod up, but we have this college football podcast called Ringer Tailgate. And I just, I know it's good. And I know it's gonna be a bigger thing. And I feel like this season it could be a bigger thing. And I just like, we just have the right group of people and the right chemistry. And this is like a show that's gonna work.

• 2:29:05Speaker 04

  They speak about college football the way that people who are real college football fans speak about college football.

• 2:29:09Bill Simmons?

  You just wanna hang out with these guys as they shoot the shit about this. And it's like, it's gonna happen this year. If, and if it doesn't happen, I'm gonna feel like it's my fault.

• 2:29:18Speaker 04

  I I sort of look at things the same way I know Triple H does also.

• 2:29:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:22Speaker 04

  If someone has all the tools in the ring, in ring, and puts in the time and manages their life outside of the ring, if it doesn't happen, it's sort of on us.

• 2:29:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:29:34Speaker 04

  Right, the creative and if they if they fuck it up, it's different. And there's a lot of chances to fuck it up, as you know.

• 2:29:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, and sometimes if, especially in wrestling, if the guys get the smoke blown up their butt early and they're doing pretty well, it can go to their heads. We've seen that many times.

• 2:29:49Speaker 04

  By the way, in all professions, when fame comes early twenties.

• 2:29:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:53Speaker 04

  You see it with athletes all the time.

• 2:29:55Bill Simmons?

  Sports center anchors. It's happened to all kinds of people. You started in the media business over and over again.

• 2:30:01Speaker 04

  You catch the Lamar Odom documentary on Netflix yet?

• 2:30:03Bill Simmons?

  I didn't watch it. I've.

• 2:30:05Speaker 04

  You knew the whole story.

• 2:30:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I know the story.

• 2:30:06Speaker 04

  By the way, I was at UNLV when he was supposed to come to UNLV. Remember, he signed there for a moment before he went to Rhode Island.

• 2:30:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:14Speaker 04

  Okay. He was so good, so young, that you almost wish like he wasn't that good.

• 2:30:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:30:20Speaker 04

  Because the things that you can't teach, he inherently had. But the things that you had to manage, he inherently couldn't manage. And I don't mean to critique his life, but sometimes when you're so young and so good, it can mess you up.

• 2:30:35Bill Simmons?

  Basketball has a lot of those.

• 2:30:37Speaker 04

  A lot.

• 2:30:37Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the one of the most famous ones ever was Marvin Bad News Barnes, who I think would have probably top 25 forward talent. It was just, but just off the court, complete disaster and.

• 2:30:49Speaker 04

  Taj McDavid.

• 2:30:50Bill Simmons?

  Catch up with you. There's a couple, yeah, there's a couple of guys now that I won't mention that we worry about. One thing you guys are doing.

• 2:30:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:30:57Bill Simmons?

  That I love, that I feel like I'm responsible for this, even though I can't take any credit for it, but I have mentioned it to you every time we talk. I love managers, just feel like we never had enough managers. I don't know why we got away from that in the eighties. So now you have McAfee.

• 2:31:11Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:31:12Bill Simmons?

  As maybe. A heel manager, seems like we're headed that way.

• 2:31:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:31:16Bill Simmons?

  Which is weird because he's also doing a show in his pen every day where he's not a heel manager. But I fully support it. But just in general, and then Stephen A. said this week that, is that true? Did you talk to him about potentially being a manager?

• 2:31:29Speaker 04

  Listen, you know, love Stephen A. And by the way, he's bringing his show First Take to Vegas for WrestleMania. He would be a phenomenal manager. He's, and he wants to be a heel. Most people say they want to be heels.

• 2:31:42Bill Simmons?

  He really wants to be heel.

• 2:31:44Speaker 04

  They want to be like the cool heels, like Hall and Nash. They don't want to be the monster. McAfee came in as a monster heel. Different than who he actually is on his show. He's easy, McAfee's an easygoing guy from my point of view. Monster heel. I like, you have always said, bring back more managers. It's something, again, when Triple H and I went to go see Shawn and Matt Bloom a year ago. We said, hey, look, keep in mind also, in addition to the in-ring performers accelerating their path, for ones who may just not have an in-ring or who bodies may break down. If they're good on the mic, send them this way. By the way, managerial, ring announcers, you know, there's plenty of work to be done. I don't think there's like a ring announcer school.

• 2:32:26Bill Simmons?

  Who do we think is the best manager of all time?

• 2:32:29Speaker 04

  I go Hayman and Bobby Heenan. What do you say?

• 2:32:33Bill Simmons?

  I have, I think Hayman is the best one I've ever seen at actually.

• 2:32:39Speaker 04

  Guiding.

• 2:32:41Bill Simmons?

  Kind of owning the room sometimes, like in a way like that, uh, some of the best wrestlers ever can really like, everyone kind of shuts up when he's talking. Heenan was crazy because he could also wrestle and would get thrown around, get his ass kicked. I, the Grand Wizard, like that whole era, I still don't really know what his gimmick was, but I was scared of him as a kid. Albano, Captain Lu Albano was great.

• 2:33:09Speaker 04

  Do you know that's P. Bavacqua's like second cousin?

• 2:33:11Bill Simmons?

  I'm not surprised.

• 2:33:12Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:33:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, not surprised at all.

• 2:33:14Speaker 04

  Like legit cousin or uncle or something like that.

• 2:33:17Bill Simmons?

  My favorite ones as a, as a teenager who couldn't get a date were Missy Hyatt and Miss Elizabeth.

• 2:33:24Speaker 04

  Well, listen.

• 2:33:25Bill Simmons?

  So we haven't really brought the 90, late 90s kind of brought it back a little. I still feel like there's some meat on that bone, too.

• 2:33:31Speaker 04

  You're also talking, you know, mid 80s, you're 15, 16 years old, Missy Hyatt.

• 2:33:37Bill Simmons?

  It's an, it's an important group, though.

• 2:33:39Speaker 04

  Yes, I understand, Missy Hyatt. Pretty attractive. By the way, did you ever catch that she did one Piper's Place type thing for WWE that didn't work out?

• 2:33:49Bill Simmons?

  Of course. It was called like the Missy.

• 2:33:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, something like that.

• 2:33:52Bill Simmons?

  Didn't go well. They had one major thing on it. I had some questions for my.

• 2:33:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course. I didn't know that you knew that.

• 2:33:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, there was one that was making the rounds. Something happened on one of those. Like, there was like a really eventful. I can't remember what it was, but there was some sort of major thing that happened in the storyline. And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot you had that. It didn't work. Couple of questions from my buddies Gus and Sal.

• 2:34:14Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 2:34:16Bill Simmons?

  If you could change the result of one match since you've taken over, if you just go back and mulligan a match, what would the match be?

• 2:34:26Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know that we've taken over, but.

• 2:34:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what I mean? Since you've been involved with WWE, however many years, is there one mulligan match you're like, ah, fuck, we should have done that instead?

• 2:34:37Bill Simmons?

  It's a good question.

• 2:34:38Speaker 04

  It's a great question. As I think it through, I think Cody not beating Roman at WrestleMania 2023 was the right move at so far.

• 2:34:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:49Speaker 04

  And making it wait and ripen another year and doing it in Philly was the right move. What about you? What match have you seen? Chalk my memory here where you're like, ah, it shouldn't have played out that way.

• 2:35:01Bill Simmons?

  Mine is more like, I just don't understand what happened to the Royal Rumble where, and maybe it was just because where it was located this year. But I used to like when there were like the five or six completely random, oh, my God, I haven't thought about this person for 20 years or, oh, my God, that's Kevin Nash. He's here? And I don't know why we went away from that.

• 2:35:24Speaker 04

  So I'll tell you, there's one inherent issue that is solvable, but not as easily solvable as it used to be. Now, because, as you know, athletes with science and working out and this and that, their careers go much longer than they used to.

• 2:35:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:37Speaker 04

  If I said to you, okay, who from the late 90s, NWO, you know, who would you like to see come back? Like, there's no one.

• 2:35:48Speaker 04

  So Hogan, rest in peace.

• 2:35:50Bill Simmons?

  So yeah, so you'd almost have to go to late 2000s or early 2010s.

• 2:35:55Speaker 04

  So think about Stone Cold retired when he was 38. We're just talking about Punk is 47. Retired at 38.

• 2:36:02Bill Simmons?

  Man, see, these are good points.

• 2:36:03Speaker 04

  Right, so there aren't Kurt Angle, by the way, I love Kurt. Bad knees, just had double knee surgery, can't, we can't clear medically. He could come out and do something on the mic and all of that stuff. But there aren't men or women where you're like, this is readily available. Remember even Tatanka came back 10, 15 years ago. Assume Tatanka, how old do you think he is now, 65?

• 2:36:27Bill Simmons?

  Yokozuna still alive?

• 2:36:28Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:36:30Bill Simmons?

  Um, another question. Would you ever consider doing the 80s thing? Using WWE to mirror things that are going on in real life? Like some of the political stuff?

• 2:36:41Speaker 04

  Too tough.

• 2:36:41Bill Simmons?

  That seems like that ship sailed 20 years ago.

• 2:36:44Speaker 04

  It's too tough with the political environment now. Like to have ICE officers arresting like.

• 2:36:49Bill Simmons?

  You can never do any of that stuff.

• 2:36:51Speaker 04

  Dragon lady.

• 2:36:51Bill Simmons?

  That would be crazy. Yeah, that's, that would be awful. But could you do like?

• 2:36:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't know, somebody like a, a super left liberal wrestler as a heel? Who's just like constantly correcting everybody or do like a super MAGA? Like you just would stay away completely from all that stuff.

• 2:37:10Speaker 04

  We did it for a moment in time in NXT when we were coming out of COVID. A guy who's in the Wyatt Six now, Joe Gacy, was, you know, before he would, um, let's say body slam you, he would apologize that he had to.

• 2:37:25Bill Simmons?

  That didn't work.

• 2:37:26Speaker 04

  No, it didn't work. But he was like, I'm very sorry that I have to wrestle you. You know, very sorry that, you know.

• 2:37:32Bill Simmons?

  So like a politically correct angle?

• 2:37:34Speaker 04

  For everything, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 2:37:38Bill Simmons?

  Something there. I mean, it is. One of the great things about wrestling is it always mirrors whatever time of it was happening in. So you think, look, go back to the seventies and eighties stuff. You can't get mad at some things that were happening because it was like, everybody was cool with it. Really, the only time people weren't cool was the Sergeant Slaughter Hulk Gulf War, like that whole era. That was the one time people were like, yo, what are you guys doing? This is crazy.

• 2:38:03Speaker 04

  Think about it, like, life is wrestling, wrestling is life.

• 2:38:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:07Speaker 04

  Both reflect one another, in my opinion. The Sergeant Slaughter thing, when he's like,

• 2:38:12Bill Simmons?

  I'm now an Iraqi sympathizer.

• 2:38:14Speaker 04

  Iraqi sympathizer.

• 2:38:15Bill Simmons?

  You're getting killed. What are you doing?

• 2:38:16Speaker 04

  Brings in the Iron Sheik as General Adnan, brings in, uh, no, brings in Iron Sheik as Colonel Mustafa, brings in Adnan Al Kheisi as General Adnan.

• 2:38:26Bill Simmons?

  It's insane.

• 2:38:27Speaker 04

  Sheik speaking Farsi, not Arabic.

• 2:38:29Bill Simmons?

  I think it's the single craziest thing they ever did. I can't believe nobody stopped it. Uh, one other question for those guys.

• 2:38:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:38:35Bill Simmons?

  When do you become a character?

• 2:38:36Speaker 04

  Never.

• 2:38:37Bill Simmons?

  Never?

• 2:38:38Speaker 04

  That will never happen.

• 2:38:38Bill Simmons?

  You'll never do it?

• 2:38:39Speaker 04

  Never, ever, ever. I'm a behind the scenes guy. By the way, if you remember in my prior profession, I never asked to do podcasts, did podcasts, did interviews. I believed for me, as an agent, it was best for my name to appear after pay to the order of only. Now at a publicly traded company, with WrestleMania coming up, it's different. We obviously want to get media coverage, but Triple H will do most of that on our collective behalf, uh, in terms of a character who's also a real life executive, but never, ever, ever will that happen.

• 2:39:09Bill Simmons?

  What's your biggest fear for the next eighteen months?

• 2:39:15Speaker 04

  Listen, I think there's a lot of concerns in the country. I think there's some concerns with the economy. I think the middle class started getting squeezed ten years ago. So, you know, people with money are fortunate and they have a lot of disposable income. You know, those things can always affect any business. However, I've noticed coming out of COVID, during COVID, people, this is not my original thought, so we're clear. People wanted to buy things in COVID. Now people want to have great experiences. And WWE and boxing and UFC, which I have nothing to do with on the business side, they're all great live event experiences. So if you can get it right, rarely do people go home disappointed. Hopefully, we get it right more than we get it wrong.

• 2:39:55Bill Simmons?

  Live events, movies, concerts, feels like everything, people want to be around people again. I also think a big piece of that is you can just kind of...

• 2:40:05Bill Simmons?

  You can kind of live a month straight and not see other humans if you really wanted to. Or you you have less connective tissue. People don't go to the office every day. There's a lot of places where it's like three days a week or two days a week or work remotely. I think it's one of the last places where people don't go to bars in the same way.

• 2:40:25Speaker 04

  No question. By the way, restaurants, look at the restaurants closing in LA.

• 2:40:29Bill Simmons?

  The restaurant thing's bad.

• 2:40:30Speaker 04

  There's a number of reasons, but it used to be in LA on a Thursday night. There were 15 restaurants and we said, let's go somewhere fun for dinner. 15 spots you could go to. Now on a Thursday night, you go and everything's sleepy. It's different.

• 2:40:42Bill Simmons?

  People are like, they're doing food orders or they're just grocery shopping. Yeah, so.

• 2:40:46Speaker 04

  I have some theories on that, by the way.

• 2:40:48Bill Simmons?

  What?

• 2:40:49Speaker 04

  So food orders, like you said, I also think the proliferation of personal chefs, where it's not just billionaires who have them, so you can have someone come cook for you.

• 2:40:57Bill Simmons?

  Or cook a bunch of things.

• 2:40:59Speaker 04

  Cook a bunch of things. And I think for celebrities with the iPhone, tough to go out in public. What are you gonna go? You and I are gonna go get drunk and someone's gonna catch you on an iPhone.

• 2:41:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's.

• 2:41:09Speaker 04

  Acting drunk or even speaking to your wife, you know, I'm sure you've seen where people are like, maybe not in Los Angeles and other spots, people recording you like, oh, there's Bill Simmons, there's Bill Simmons. Like, why would Leonardo DiCaprio subject himself to that?

• 2:41:25Speaker 04

  And then fewer people go because of that.

• 2:41:29Bill Simmons?

  I think that the

• 2:41:32Bill Simmons?

  lack of drinking is a piece of this too at the restaurants.

• 2:41:35Speaker 04

  Huge.

• 2:41:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't think people drink the same way just at all.

• 2:41:38Speaker 04

  Huge.

• 2:41:38Bill Simmons?

  And even like, I was talking to, Chang and I were talking about this recently because he has a bunch of theories on this, but saying like when people, whatever this, the 20 something generation, you go to the bar, you get a drink, you just pay for the drink. And if you, if I bought you a drink, you would immediately Venmo me your side of the drink versus like keeping the tab open.

• 2:42:01Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:42:01Bill Simmons?

  Nobody keeps the tab open.

• 2:42:03Speaker 04

  Smart.

• 2:42:03Bill Simmons?

  I've noticed that when I keep the tab open at a place, the bartender always seems really excited. People are keeping the tab open. So some of the habits I think are different, but I think the Postmates and the food ordering stuff has really hurt. It's just way easier to stay home and eat.

• 2:42:18Speaker 04

  But think about it, when we were kids, you could really only get two things for delivery, pizza and Chinese food.

• 2:42:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:23Speaker 04

  Now you can get everything delivered. So to your point.

• 2:42:27Bill Simmons?

  And from a money standpoint, because if you're throwing, if you're driving to the restaurant.

• 2:42:32Bill Simmons?

  Maybe there's parking or valet or whatever. Then there's a service tip. It probably is a cancel out from what you did if you did Uber Eats or whatever. Anyway. So.

• 2:42:44Speaker 04

  It's also.

• 2:42:44Bill Simmons?

  Habits change, but I think live events feel like they're even more. I'm so happy movies came back.

• 2:42:50Speaker 04

  Same.

• 2:42:50Bill Simmons?

  Movies are back like for real. And I think comedies haven't come back, but horror movies have come back and Big Ten pole stuff, IMAX stuff. And it feels like that at least is good now.

• 2:43:01Speaker 04

  By the way, we went to see the Ryan Gosling movie, Week Three.

• 2:43:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, still packed.

• 2:43:06Speaker 04

  Packed. Packed at the IMAX version in the valley. What used to be the ArcLight Sherman Oaks, I think is now AMC. It's great.

• 2:43:19Bill Simmons?

  So you still feel like from an attendance standpoint, even though you're down a little bit, the live experience still matters and is not something you're worried about.

• 2:43:26Speaker 04

  Listen, we're down like a single digit percentage.

• 2:43:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:29Speaker 04

  So one or 2%, whatever it is now, I'm not concerned about that at all. You had seen his retirement tour, which we planned for. Assume people were gonna, it was real. This is the last time you're going to see him wrestle in this city. We planned for it. Okay, we have, you know, a crop of A-plus listers.

• 2:43:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:49Speaker 04

  Who can main event. Okay, they're not in their twenties or thirties anymore. Let's plan for that. It's all about trying to see what's around the corner and getting ready for it. No different than your business. So, right, originally it was you were the hoops guy.

• 2:44:01Bill Simmons?

  Right. Then you branch out.

• 2:44:02Speaker 04

  Correct. Now you're doing movies.

• 2:44:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:44:04Speaker 04

  Right. It's like, okay, well, nobody's doing that. Okay. Well, I was kind of the movies guy. I referenced Karate Kid earlier. No one else was doing that. So like, why don't I talk about the other movies that people want to talk about?

• 2:44:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:14Speaker 04

  So it works.

• 2:44:15Bill Simmons?

  And what's ESPN brought to you? I think it's still weird to see it on SportsCenter. I have no idea if I like it or not.

• 2:44:21Speaker 04

  The coverage is outstanding.

• 2:44:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no, they're really covering it. Like a real sport, which obviously I like because I've always liked wrestling, but it's still, I don't know when I'll get used to it, I guess is my point.

• 2:44:32Speaker 04

  Why do you hurt me?

• 2:44:33Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm, I'm, I'm not against it or for it. I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. ESPN used to not acknowledge wrestling and now they're interviewing so and so on the 6pm Sports Center. Just strange.

• 2:44:44Speaker 04

  Listen, keep in mind, 20 plus years ago, WWE was on UPN.

• 2:44:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:49Speaker 04

  And the Nashville Network, which became the National Network, which became TNN, which became Spike, which is now Paramount.

• 2:44:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:56Speaker 04

  Now we're on Netflix, USA, ESPN. You know, it's worked out, in my opinion, great for the consumer, great for the company, great for our athletes in terms of their potential to cross over like Rock and Cena and the Bellas.

• 2:45:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, you always, you always want the good partner that actually is glad to have you and is pushing you.

• 2:45:17Speaker 04

  For sure. And I also think, um, I don't like when deals get inherited. So Bella was the driver of the WWE deal at Netflix.

• 2:45:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:28Speaker 04

  Jimmy Pataro was the driver of the WWE deal at ESPN. That's a good thing. The successor, as you know, rarely just says, I'm just going to do what the predecessor did. So I like that the people sort of in the seats were the big champions.

• 2:45:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:42Speaker 04

  And, you know, have certainly showed up and turned out for us.

• 2:45:45Bill Simmons?

  Bonus question before we go. How's your back? Can you make two more minutes?

• 2:45:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're good. Um, I have a question for you before we go too.

• 2:45:51Bill Simmons?

  What was your takeaway on the Netflix Paramount Warner Brothers, um, love triangle?

• 2:45:59Bill Simmons?

  What, who, did you think Netflix was going to win?

• 2:46:04Speaker 04

  It certainly appeared that way, but I also thought, you know, you have a legitimate billionaire on the other side who is willing to subsidize and use relationships. Correct. It's no different.

• 2:46:17Speaker 04

  If David and Larry Ellison wanted to buy this home, when you wanted to buy this home, I would bet on them to get this home.

• 2:46:27Bill Simmons?

  Thank God they didn't.

• 2:46:28Speaker 04

  Thank God.

• 2:46:28Bill Simmons?

  It's a nice studio.

• 2:46:29Speaker 04

  It's a beautiful place. As successful as you are, it's different, right? Levels of wealth. You're like super, super rich.

• 2:46:35Bill Simmons?

  So you felt like as soon as, so Netflix is ahead, seems like they're getting it. And you're like, I'm not counting out the Ellison's yet. If they really want this, they're gonna get it.

• 2:46:43Speaker 04

  Tough group to count out. And I have no inside info. I've only read what's available, you know, publicly. But in my opinion, they were never really out, even when Warner Brothers Discovery wasn't answering texts and this and that. Having gone through, and I get it, it was WWE and UFC merging, which seems to have worked quite well under TKO. Having gone through, through a semi-similar transaction.

• 2:47:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:07Speaker 04

  Right. Warner Brothers Discovery does not have a controlling shareholder. So it was going to be up to the shareholders at a certain price, purely up to the shareholders. At WWE, it was also purely up to the shareholders, so long as Vince McMahon was not treated any differently than any other shareholder, which he was not. So whoever presented the best offer for the shareholders was gonna get the company. That's how I saw Warner Brothers Discovery and Paramount, and you had one side with unlimited capital.

• 2:47:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:35Speaker 04

  Paramount.

• 2:47:36Bill Simmons?

  What's your question for me before we go?

• 2:47:39Speaker 04

  I mentioned the term perfect movie earlier and said Karate Kid's a perfect movie. Doesn't mean it has to be an all-time great movie.

• 2:47:44Bill Simmons?

  Perfect for what it wanted to be.

• 2:47:45Speaker 04

  Correct. Tell me off the top of your head, what are other perfect movies?

• 2:47:50Bill Simmons?

  Perfect for what they wanted to be?

• 2:47:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:47:52Bill Simmons?

  Social Network.

• 2:47:54Speaker 04

  Perfect movie. Silence of the Lambs.

• 2:47:57Bill Simmons?

  Silence of the Lambs, really good.

• 2:47:59Speaker 04

  No flaws in it. I'm not saying all time, I'm not saying it's the Godfather one or two. But when I watched that movie, I'm like, they didn't mess anything up in this thing. That's what I consider.

• 2:48:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cause even Heat, which is one of my favorite movies of the last 35 years. There's a whole Natalie Portman pot where I'm like, I don't know.

• 2:48:16Speaker 04

  Agreed.

• 2:48:17Bill Simmons?

  Can probably bump that one. Social Network, I watch like probably every 18 months. And I'm always like amazed how every single decision's the right decision from start to finish. And you know, another one, I mentioned this when I did my most rewatchable movies of the 21st century. And the number one pick was Devil Wears Prada. Perfect movie from beginning and for what it was trying to do. I don't know if the sequel is gonna be good.

• 2:48:42Speaker 04

  By the way, the trailer for the sequel looks amazing.

• 2:48:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 2:48:45Speaker 04

  The original trailer.

• 2:48:46Bill Simmons?

  I always get nervous.

• 2:48:47Speaker 04

  But the good thing on sequels now, as you know, and you've talked about this on the rewatchables many times. They don't have to sort of pick up the storyline.

• 2:48:53Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 2:48:53Speaker 04

  That we left off with, which is what ruined the Karate Kid franchise as a film. Right? You could have just started a different story.

• 2:49:01Bill Simmons?

  It got weird with Daniel-san and Miyagi in three.

• 2:49:05Speaker 04

  Well.

• 2:49:05Bill Simmons?

  Where it was like, Daniel-san, you're like in your twenties now. You don't have any friends? Why are you still hanging out with this guy? Make some friends your age. What are you doing?

• 2:49:16Speaker 04

  Also, like, in one, he's fighting for the All Valley Championship and for respect.

• 2:49:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:21Speaker 04

  And in two, he's fighting for his life. I don't know.

• 2:49:23Bill Simmons?

  Two, he's fighting for his life. And then, three, he's fighting in the tournament. He gets an exemption all the way to the finals. I don't know what tournament this is.

• 2:49:32Bill Simmons?

  What are those rules? Just goes right to, uh, to fighting Mike Barnes. It's one of the worst movies ever made.

• 2:49:38Speaker 04

  Quick last, last question.

• 2:49:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:40Speaker 04

  What was worse, Karate Kid 3 or the new Karate Kid? Not, not Cobra Kai.

• 2:49:47Bill Simmons?

  I didn't see the new Karate Kid.

• 2:49:48Speaker 04

  So that's how much you looked down on it. You wouldn't even watch it.

• 2:49:52Bill Simmons?

  I, I really, yeah, I have a hard time with the Money Grab sequels.

• 2:49:56Speaker 04

  Dude, it's like Jaws 2, Jaws 3, Jaws 4.

• 2:49:58Bill Simmons?

  I still haven't seen John Wick 4. I started it. I was like, I think I'm good with John Wick. I love John Wick. I love one and two. Three's fine.

• 2:50:08Speaker 04

  When did you cut out on Terminator poster behind you?

• 2:50:10Bill Simmons?

  After two.

• 2:50:11Speaker 04

  After two, same.

• 2:50:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:12Speaker 04

  1991, two came out, which was great.

• 2:50:15Bill Simmons?

  Alien, I was good after two. I'm sure there were other good ones. I'm, I'm fine with those. Halloween I stuck with all the way through. That's probably the only one. Just kept going the whole time.

• 2:50:26Speaker 04

  Did you get the opportunity to re-watch these movies with your children for the first time when they were younger?

• 2:50:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:32Speaker 04

  And were they as into, most of them as you were?

• 2:50:36Bill Simmons?

  Definitely some of them.

• 2:50:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:50:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure you're going through it now.

• 2:50:38Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:50:39Bill Simmons?

  Um, we were always three, four years too early with movies with our kids.

• 2:50:43Speaker 04

  I get that.

• 2:50:44Bill Simmons?

  We just really pushed the envelope in probably damaging ways in retrospect. Who knows?

• 2:50:48Speaker 04

  Dude, I just tried to show our children Full Metal Jacket.

• 2:50:53Bill Simmons?

  Oh, God, I wouldn't have done that one.

• 2:50:55Speaker 04

  I'm like, you're gonna love this.

• 2:50:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man.

• 2:50:57Speaker 04

  Opening scene, and one minute in, two minutes in, I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to wait.

• 2:51:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's, it's a wrap. Yeah, that's a tough one.

• 2:51:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, for some reason I thought they would like it now.

• 2:51:07Bill Simmons?

  We would push the envelope with the horror movies, but usually no. Oh, here's the scene of Halloween when Bob's gonna have sex with PJ Soul's. Like, we're, I'm gonna fast forward to a little ahead here. But for the most part, like, we were like, they're gonna find this stuff anyway. We might as well, like, watch it with them and kind of edit it as it goes along.

• 2:51:25Speaker 04

  So my son Sonny, who you mentioned earlier, was begging to watch Eight Mile.

• 2:51:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:30Speaker 04

  And I was like, yeah, I think we can do it. I think we do it. There's one scene in The Factory we'll have to fast forward. Opening scene is Kim basing her on the couch. And I was like, okay.

• 2:51:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's a little.

• 2:51:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, wait a little bit here. We forget certain scenes. I get you can look it up, but that scene was not at the forefront of my mind.

• 2:51:47Bill Simmons?

  All right, so big winners of this podcast was, um, I think Rhea Ripley was a winner.

• 2:51:53Speaker 04

  Logan Paul you also agree with.

• 2:51:54Bill Simmons?

  Logan Paul.

• 2:51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:51:55Bill Simmons?

  All the people that run all the streaming companies you deal with.

• 2:51:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:52:00Bill Simmons?

  Me, because you complimented the studio.

• 2:52:02Speaker 04

  Dude, you're, you're a true American success story. It's, you are. It's what I say about Dana White also. Like, you went, each of you went, you were employed by, for our generation, the brag was, I work at ESPN. I work at this agency. It wasn't in 2005, I'm gonna go start my own company and sell it for however many kajillions you sold.

• 2:52:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, you weren't allowed to leave ESPN.

• 2:52:27Speaker 04

  You, you.

• 2:52:28Bill Simmons?

  It was like, it was, if you left, that your career was never gonna recover. That was, that was what everybody said, even though Dan Patrick, by the way, did fine.

• 2:52:35Speaker 04

  He did great.

• 2:52:36Bill Simmons?

  But, uh.

• 2:52:37Speaker 04

  By the way, I saw you, when you left ESPN, you were at a Clippers game like the Saturday after.

• 2:52:44Bill Simmons?

  I was, yeah, I went with my friend Ben, like, a week later.

• 2:52:47Speaker 04

  And I remember seeing you, and it was one of the only times I seen you, I've seen you where I thought you looked like a little, not sad, but you didn't, usually, if I see you, especially at hoops games, it's like, what's up? And I'll say, hey, give me your analysis of this game, and you'll give it to me. I don't know hoops like you do. And, you know, we'll have a conversation. And then I was like, and I started seeing you build.

• 2:53:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:11Speaker 04

  Right. I'm like, oh dude, this guy's like building an empire over here. And at that time, when you were doing Grantland, Jalen Rose and Jacoby and all those guys would refer to you as the Podfather.

• 2:53:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:53:22Speaker 04

  Right. And you were what you saw around the corner, where this whole thing was going. So in a way, first mover, who also happened to be great at it. And then, okay, my thing, your thing, it's working. Now I'm going to replicate and try to build an empire. You did it. Dana White did it. Ari Emanuel did it. All credit to people like that. By the way, Mark Shapiro told me when I called him when I took the WWE job, he said, give me a piece of advice. He said, you're going as a president of the company, just keep in mind founder CEOs, different than regular CEOs. You gotta give a little more leeway because they were the ones that went out and said, fuck this, I'm going to go start something and try to make it.

• 2:54:00Bill Simmons?

  Now you're going to be fired up to start something else. Might have to.

• 2:54:03Speaker 04

  Maybe you invest in something where you finally do once.

• 2:54:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. See, that's how smart I was.

• 2:54:08Speaker 04

  You turned your back on UFC. Turned your back on TKO.

• 2:54:11Bill Simmons?

  So stupid.

• 2:54:12Speaker 04

  Can't go to WrestleMania because NBA playoffs.

• 2:54:14Bill Simmons?

  I don't see how they're going to solve the media rights, the new media rights issue. One of the worst analysis is ever.

• 2:54:20Speaker 04

  Listen, all you need is one. And this was a line I saw on CBS Sunday Morning. It said, if you have two bidders on one property who don't like each other,

• 2:54:33Speaker 04

  then you're in business.

• 2:54:34Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that's Zaslove.

• 2:54:37Bill Simmons?

  All he needed was the Ellison's to be like, fuck, we gotta get this thing. And that's what he was banking on. Their stock was like $8 at one point.

• 2:54:44Speaker 04

  Dude, people laughed at him. He always made good money.

• 2:54:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:49Speaker 04

  Okay, you had 600 pound sisters.

• 2:54:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:52Speaker 04

  Laughed at him. He went and convinced what was Time Warner. Let the minnow swallow the whale. Let me take it over AT&T. Took that debt, this, oh, it's never going to work. This, sells the company. Big transaction. Credit to him. I have no, nothing negative to say about that.

• 2:55:10Bill Simmons?

  Pulled it off.

• 2:55:11Speaker 04

  Pulled it off. Dude, you know how hard it is to pull it off? Think about how many people try and how many people fail. He did it. You did it. The others I mentioned did it. It's impressive. By the way.

• 2:55:21Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, Nick. Thanks for ending on a compliment.

• 2:55:23Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:55:23Bill Simmons?

  It was great. Good luck this weekend on WrestleMania. I'm not going this weekend.

• 2:55:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:55:27Bill Simmons?

  I'm taking the year off.

• 2:55:28Speaker 04

  You care about NBA more.

• 2:55:29Bill Simmons?

  No, it's because my son went to Coachella for three days and. We can't do the two straight weekends.

• 2:55:34Speaker 04

  Is this the first Coachella on YouTube or has it always been on YouTube?

• 2:55:38Bill Simmons?

  No, I think they did that before.

• 2:55:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:55:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:55:40Speaker 04

  Cause our daughter Natalie is now 14, so this weekend it was a lot of let's watch Coachella on YouTube, which, you know, we watched with her, which I thought was a great platform to have that on. The Quasar stage, never even heard of these terms.

• 2:55:53Bill Simmons?

  It feels like they, every year they've upped some sort of visibility with it. Like it feels slightly more relevant as the decade has gone along post-COVID and I don't really know why. Cause like my son was excited, the band he was most excited about was The Strokes. It's a 25 year old band.

• 2:56:09Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:56:10Bill Simmons?

  He was like, they were awesome.

• 2:56:11Speaker 04

  By the way, to your point and what we talked about earlier, people love experiences. So whatever Coachella is or was, you see the price of those tickets, you see how people are getting there. It's nuts.

• 2:56:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:56:23Speaker 04

  Now, by the way, I don't, I don't understand the whole Burning Man thing for grownups.

• 2:56:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand either. As I said, Coachella combines a lot of things I don't like. Having a pain in the ass travel trip, having to rent a place, um, a lot of like aimless walking.

• 2:56:39Speaker 04

  I don't like concerts in general.

• 2:56:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just like not knowing where to be the whole time and just constantly feeling like you're gonna make the wrong. It's not, not for me.

• 2:56:47Speaker 04

  How about the?

• 2:56:48Bill Simmons?

  I like just going to WrestleMania and I just know what's gonna happen.

• 2:56:51Speaker 04

  Now I will sit here.

• 2:56:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:52Speaker 04

  And if I wanna go get some popcorn, I'll go get it. Maybe someone can get it for way better. And where's the stage and where's the restroom?

• 2:56:59Bill Simmons?

  Do you wanna go there?

• 2:57:00Speaker 04

  Ah, hate.

• 2:57:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't get it.

• 2:57:02Speaker 04

  Hate, hate, hate.

• 2:57:02Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's our old guys on the sofa. Good luck with WrestleMania.

• 2:57:06Speaker 04

  Thanks, man. Let me know what you think after. Appreciate it.

• 2:57:10Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc and Nick. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Don't forget to check out Legata over the weekend. It's awesome. You're gonna love it. New narrative podcast from The Ringer. Uh, don't forget to check out on the rewatchables. Uh, if you missed Basic Instinct, fine. Kindergarten Cops coming up. And, uh, that's on Netflix as well, if you wanna check that out. Uh, this podcast is on Netflix, if you didn't know that. Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the basketball. Hockey, I think, is starting. Is hockey starting? I'm about to jump on the Bruins bandwagon again. Um, and, and enjoy the baseball and enjoy the sports and try to stay married. I will see you on Sunday night with Zach Lowe, live on Netflix.

• 2:58:11Bill Simmons?

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