UConn’s Miracle, Weirdest NBA Season Ever, A Scary Playoff Team Draft, and an Iffy Expansion Plan With Zach Lowe

Join The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe LIVE on Netflix right after Knicks vs. Thunder to react to UConn’s buzzer beater against Duke before diving into a scary playoff team draft (0:32). Then, they discuss the NBA expansion plans and take a deep dive into the weirdest NBA season’s ever (01:01:29). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Sam’s Club | Join The Club of Yes And Bundle and Save Book now on Expedia.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Now playing in theaters nationwide.

• 1:08Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by The Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find Zach Lowe's podcast, The Zach Lowe Show, Tuesdays, Thursdays. You can also find the rewatchables, where it is almost the end of CR mode, Zach. We have LA Confidential is going to be the last rewatchables we put up on Monday. This was a great basketball weekend. I know you're not a huge college hoops guy, but you are a Connecticut guy. And we had one of the great comebacks of all time. So we're going to get into a whole bunch of NBA stuff, but we had an unbelievable UConn comeback and game winner against Duke. And I was thinking, like, when you have these, when you're down like basically 20, and you're heading into the second half, and we see this scenario with NBA college all the time. It's basically the two-part comeback,

• 1:53Bill Simmons?

  followed by some sort of mini miracle is the way it goes down, right? You get, you go from 20 to like 11, then you're around between nine and 11 for a while. And then you make that one last run to get to within two, three. But then you still need, still need some help. And they got some help. So did you see the last play? And did you feel like that was a great UConn play or a terrible Duke play?

• 2:16Speaker 01

  First of all, what a delight. This is, this is two years in a row that Duke loses late in the tournament in just epic fashion. We can all agree, anybody but Duke and just

• 2:24Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Uh, truly an insane end to the game. I can't say that I saw a lot of it, but I saw the last 30 or 40 seconds of the game. Um, you know, I, I guess Boozer got a little flack for, what, did he panic? Couldn't he have just held on to the ball and gotten fouled? That's like kind of an instinctual play, right? Like this, like you think you're being smart by like, oh, we're gonna run the clock. I'll just lob it up and a crazy deflection. I think it was a great play. Like the steal was great. The pass and pass back was great. Obviously the shot is an all time killer shot and Dan Hurley, another, another round for your UConn Huskies, baby.

• 2:57Bill Simmons?

  I was honestly a great, great, great coaching job. Sometimes I feel like college coaches almost get too much credit because they're the only constants at these schools and they're, the camera's always showing them. He was like not get, they were down 1917, 1915 and he was on the sidelines. Like it was a two point game, just, just going crazy. He was doing this with the crowd heading into timeouts.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a psycho. Dan's a psycho.

• 3:23Bill Simmons?

  But he just basically wouldn't let them quit. But I felt like that, uh, first of all, I don't know why every college team does impress. Like if you have great athletes, I think you should at least know how to like trap press it to some form, right? So they get, they're basically down to they missed first free throw, get the second and they're like, we can get the ball back. We've, we practiced this, we're ready. And they get poor Caden Boozer in the middle of the court. And honestly, it was, it was like one of those plays where like five things had to happen perfectly at the same time. They send the two guys rushing at him, right? He's got two teammates wide open 50 feet away.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  You can see his thinking. Like I, there are two guys on me. Like all I gotta do is roll one pass, the game, the game's over.

• 4:06Bill Simmons?

  But the problem is that because UConn practices all the time, they know, oh, either he thinks we're gonna foul or not. If he starts to throw to the wide open guys, we're just jumping up like this. And they were like synchronized swimmers, the way they both went up at the same time tipped it. But then the kid had to make a 38 foot shot. And it's not like he was red hot during the game either. So, uh, unbelievable when, I don't know, did you see the CBS? They had the camera on Grant Hill and Bill Raftery?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 4:38Bill Simmons?

  Bill Raftery almost dies.

• 4:42Bill Simmons?

  They cut to him.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Don't joke about, don't joke about that.

• 4:44Bill Simmons?

  I know you, I'm telling you, watch it. It happens and he goes, he kinda like, it's like, like he saw like a demonic force in his living room or something.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Did onions?

• 4:54Bill Simmons?

  Devastated.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Did onions come out at all? Did we get an onions?

• 4:57Bill Simmons?

  He couldn't speak.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:59Bill Simmons?

  But uh, this was a real, it was a really fun tournament from a talent standpoint, but the games, I don't think this weekend measured up. And then we got this awesome game. We're going to talk lottery in a second. We uh, just watched OKC New York.

• 5:15Bill Simmons?

  There was a really interesting SGA MVP movement that happened over the last week since I saw you seven days ago in this podcast, when he was minus, I think minus 1500 for MVP. By the time we got through this morning, he was minus 320. And everybody had kind of hopped in the Wemby MVP car and driven around a little bit to see how it felt. And we've talked about, um, I, I already said I, he was the best player I saw in person all year. I see the case. I just think this SGA, this is ridiculous. SGA should be the MVP. He proved it again today. Um, are we just bored? What's your take on this SGA versus Wemby thing?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  I know, I don't think we're bored. Um, I think the number one seed would probably have an outsized importance to, to a lot of voters. Um, I, I think it's a little silly that, you know, if, if there's a tie and the Spurs win the tiebreaker, we give it to Wemba Yama for, if, if you weigh that reason that heavily, it's a little silly, but it's, I mean, it is, they have, they're 23 and one in the last 24 games he's played. I mean,

• 6:16Bill Simmons?

  Something like that.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  It does mean something that they just never lose when he plays. Their net rating is approaching plus 20 per 100 possessions when he's on the floor. Their defense is approaching like ludicrous speed, insane levels when he's on the floor. Um, and he, he is an all encompassing force on, one end of the floor all the time, every possession. And the offense is starting to come and he's starting to figure out where to get his touches, how to play with all these guards, how not to force things when it shouldn't, when there are easier ways for him to get buckets and like just suck the entire defense toward him in the lane. I don't, I don't think it's. I don't think, with all four of these guys at the top, I think you have to sit with each of them because they're each doing such historic stuff.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  But you just come back to, this is gonna be, if they hold on, it's a wire to wire number one seed for the Thunder. It's another year in which a lot of the supporting cast is injured for good parts of the season. And it's a guard shooting 55% from the floor and being, and being a plus defensively. Like, it's just, it's outrageous.

• 7:22Bill Simmons?

  It's a guard having as good of a regular season on a really, really good to great team as we've ever had in the league. Right? 55%.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Think about what you just said. Think about what you just said.

• 7:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It's, it's on par with Jordan, Magic, pick an MVP season. So if the Spurs were able to pass them and get the number one seed, I'm ready to have that conversation. I just don't think OKC is gonna let it up. The big thing to me, I, I noticed this over the, like, maybe like four or five days ago, I, I started looking this up, the minutes thing with Wemby and just the history of the MVP. Right? So he would have, right now, I don't think he's in the top 100 for total minutes played. I think he's at like, uh, it's like 1600, 1650, something like that. And you go through the history of the award. And I do think this matters.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Of course it matters.

• 8:14Bill Simmons?

  Bill Walton in the 78 season when he got hurt and they kinda, I wrote about this in my book. It's the weirdest one. They don't, kinda don't know who to give it to. They give it to him anyway because Portland was the best team. He played 58 games and won MVP that year. And that's the least amount of games somebody's played. If you're talking about minutes per game, everybody's 33 and up, except for Giannis during the COVID season when he was 30.4. Uh, and he played 1917 minutes that year. There's just no precedent for somebody playing 29 minutes a game, playing about 67, 68 games and winning the MVP. And that's where we'd be with Wemby. He'd be around 65, 66, and he'd be 29 minutes a game on a minutes restriction for a lot of it. You could argue he's been the most impactful guy in

• 8:59Bill Simmons?

  the league for the last 10 weeks. But SGA has either been 1, 2, 2, 1, 2 for the entire time, and he's on the best team. So unless, unless Antonio can pass him, I don't see the case.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's a boring argument to make, and it feels like you're finding the right hair to split to swing an argument. But it does, it's like, it's 350 more minutes that SGA has played than Wemby. And Luca's like 500 something more minutes, and 350 minutes is like seven full NBA games. Even if you think Wemby's per minute value or contribution is a tick higher than Shays, and it's, it's actually hard to find any statistical evidence that that is true. But let's just say you believe that. It's not 350 minutes, you know, difference worth of, of impact. Like, the extra minutes plus impact is, that's a big, that's a big number.

• 9:53Bill Simmons?

  And leaving, even leaving a half for nine to 10 minutes per half, is, you really have to have a good team at that point. If you're going to be a 60-win team and your best guy is playing 30 minutes. But it also speaks to how, how good he's been. Listen, this season was a massive win for him.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  It's incredible. These four guys are all incredible.

• 10:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is just him being in the conversation and try, and managing to drop the SGA odds when SGA didn't get hurt, and never stopped being the number one seed, and is having one of the great guard seasons of all time. Watching him today, he got 16 free throws today. They didn't, they didn't replay a couple of the calls. I don't know if that's an edict from the league, like, hey.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Oh, stop, stop.

• 10:32Bill Simmons?

  Hey, no, I kid OKC fans. Most of them were the right call. But he gets to the line a lot. And I think it is part of, like, winning back-to-back MVPs. I need to feel like the second season. Is at least mildly different than the first season. So he's been better official. He's better from an efficiency standpoint. Yes. I think he's been better at the end of the games. It feels like it's like surprising when he doesn't come through in the last five minutes. You just like even the game today. It's like, oh, here he goes. He's going to start scoring. But the big thing is he, he, there was like a character reinvention in a fun way where they became more villainy,

• 11:16Bill Simmons?

  which I think kind of weirdly helps the case because I always like to think of the MVP years like, what happened that year? What like 30 years from now? What happened that year? Oh, what was that year? And this was like the, oh, it's the year SGA went back to back, got better than he was the first year and got a little villainy. And that's what I remember from that year. So I'm good. I'm good with it.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Is he really any different? Is it any of this any different though? Or is it just like if you're, if you're saying they got villainy? What, what's different? It's the same.

• 11:46Bill Simmons?

  They didn't do anything different. I think we changed. They didn't change because they've been successful. And now I think they've entered that zone that, that sometimes players and teams can enter where you're like, ah, fuck these guys.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  I will say not to, not to be the defend the refs guy or defend the thunder guy or whatever. Cause I do think it's hilarious that Mike Brown has two technical fouls this year and they're both just losing his shit. The line of coaches, like these coaches need a support group now with like him and Chris Finch and all the coaches who have just lost it because of the thunder. But there are even, even in a game where he shoots 16 free throws and there's a couple where you're like, oh boy, did he kick his leg out? That looks a little wonky. There are a couple of drives, like one Mitchell Robinson kind of met him at the rim. And I, I kind of expected him to get a call and he didn't get a call. He's just in the paint a lot. And it's worth at least noting that even as you maybe are getting enraged at the whistle that he seems to be getting, there are these stray plays here and they were like, oh, he didn't get that call and he fell over.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Okay. It's interesting. He gets a good whistle. Let me be clear. He gets a good whistle.

• 12:47Bill Simmons?

  It's definitely favorable. So Scal was on your podcast on Thursday and I was saying it concurrently. I hadn't heard yours talking about the too many guys theory with OKC. It's one of my favorite theories. I remember arguing about this with Daryl Morey. I don't know how many years ago. You noticed it again today. They put 11 guys. J-Dub looked way better tonight. That was, I thought, the most athletic he's looked since he came back.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  How about the one where he streaked through the entire Knicks roster?

• 13:16Bill Simmons?

  Like a running back. Yeah.

• 13:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to be interested to see how this shakes out with them. You know, like A.J. Mitchell, who I think is really good. I'm a huge fan. I think he's had a good season. The three-point shot's gone a little away from him, but he's just a really good scorer. I like when he has the ball. He had like four shots in 20 minutes tonight, right? So they're, they're gonna have to figure out like, how can we, how can we kind of wet the beaks of these other dudes? They also played 11 today, which in the playoffs are not. So I assumed on Thursday that Isaiah Joe, he's probably losing minutes and McCain. Those would be the two guys. You agree with that? When they cut down to nine, those would be the two sufferers?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, even, even today, they're down to 10 and 11 minutes. The interesting one is, is Caruso because you've been asking like who's in the closing five for the Thunder and I think tonight was yet another tell that Caruso is in the closing five. And so that like who is, some of that's going to be Hardenstein coming out, some of it may be Dort coming out here and there. And it's, it's like Kason Wallace won't get as many reps in the closing five, but like the two guys who have indisputably, maybe three, if you want to include Kason Wallace, like earned that level of, there's only five, but like the, the guys who qualify are like no brainer. These guys belong in a closing five. Or Wallace, Caruso and Mitchell have all elevated to that level. Like I trust A.J. Mitchell as a closing guy

• 14:39Speaker 01

  for the Thunder. And so it's just like, it's, it's going to be matchups. It's going to be, you know, does this team have a little guard that we want as many guys as possible that can hunt him? On, on when we have the ball. It's going to be really interesting.

• 14:51Bill Simmons?

  So, all right, let's play it out. They're, who they're going to play around to? Denver. Maybe Denver.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:59Bill Simmons?

  SGA, J-Dub and Shet are all out there and have two spots left.

• 15:05Bill Simmons?

  I'm guessing it's Caruso. And then either Hartenstein or Wallace, depending on if I want to go bigger or smaller. And I don't think Dort's out there, which is the difference from last year.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  You've just benched Dort. You haven't mentioned Mitchell. And a lot of it, the Denver matchup is a peculiar one because you have the, you know, Jokic, who's the second best, best, but whatever, whatever you think he is. Um, and obviously sort of they famously used Caruso on him at the end of that series last year, but really only at the end of it. And other than that, the sort of textbook way you want to guard him is with Hartenstein and then have Chet on Aaron Gordon roving around or Chet on whoever roving around. And so if, if you're double big, that's one other perimeter guy that you got. It's, it's, it is a, the definition of a first world problem.

• 15:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So these are first world problems and great problems, but there are also things you have to figure out and extra decisions you have to make as, you know, you're down 2-1 in a game four and somebody's building, or you're down 3-2 in a game six, and you have to make sure you nail this. And, and it's just, it's, last year I felt like it was a lot more cut and dry. Like when we were going to those finals games in Indiana, it was like, I know who's going to be out there for them. I'm not positive this time. All right. Scary playoff teams draft.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 16:23Bill Simmons?

  We're doing this right now. We're banging it up.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  I was not prepared for this, but I'm excited about it.

• 16:27Bill Simmons?

  We're, we're winging it. Um, I didn't even make a list. We're going. Um, team you don't want to see in a playoff series the most, and it could be any playoff series, round one, two, three, four, doesn't matter. Number one team you don't want to see.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Isn't this just the, the best teams draft? Isn't this the same thing as the like?

• 16:43Bill Simmons?

  No, it's not. Okay. It's not. It's a scary playoff teams draft. Here's the caveat. I'm getting the completely healthy version of each team. So I'm giving you the hypothetical Sixers. I'm giving you the Celtics with how good Tatum looked today. I'm giving you, I'm giving you Charlotte with all their guys. Like you name it. I'm giving you Detroit with Cade back. So we're taking, we're moving, we're going hypothetical ceiling of each team. Who's the scariest playoff team too? Not the best, the scariest.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  What, what is scariest? Scariest like I just, they're unpleasant to play against? Or are we talking upset potential? I mean, the scariest is Oklahoma City still.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  It's a boring answer.

• 17:27Bill Simmons?

  All right. So that's your number one. I would have taken, I would have taken San Antonio first.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Well, either one, that's fine. They're incredible and Wemby certainly is very scary.

• 17:36Bill Simmons?

  Here's why I think it's San Antonio from a ceiling potential standpoint. I'm worried they have one more level in them. I know what OKC's level is. We know, we know what it is. I don't know what it is with San Antonio. I almost don't have a ceiling for the house for them. And it might be what we're seeing now, but I keep thinking back to a couple of times over history with these young teams that skyrocketed. And also what's happened to them, you know, over the last two months and that 91 Bulls analogy with them or the 86 Rockets are like they're, they might just be ready now. And if they're getting the Wemby that we've seen the last 10 weeks, I think I'm the most scared of that because you put that in a playoff series with the energy of a playoff series.

• 18:20Bill Simmons?

  And just what Wemby can do psychologically, combined with this OKC, just trying to figure out who they are as good as they are right now. I think I'd be the most scared. Like if I'm the seven seed, if I'm Phoenix, am I more bummed out that I'm playing San Antonio or OKC?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  You're just happy to be there. What a, what a great season for the Phoenix Suns, are you? But I, I think you're probably, I think you want to, I don't know. It's a good question.

• 18:49Bill Simmons?

  This is why this is a good question.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Well, but it's because it's, it's the experience factor, right? Like can't you see Dillon Brooks in the locker room being like, these guys have never been here before. Like we can punk these guys in game one.

• 18:58Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna knock Wemby down every time.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna get into Wemby watch. I'm gonna rattle him. He's gonna throw an elbow at me. Like, can't you just see that conversation unfolding?

• 19:07Bill Simmons?

  I could. That's what you would talk yourself into if you're playing SA.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  These guys haven't been here before. We can get to them. We can, but we can knock down Wemby. We can beat him up. No layups for him. Hit him every time he's trying to dunk.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, I, I think the Spurs can win the title. I am not super rattled by, by the, I mean, by the, all of NBA history essentially suggesting that you cannot just go in and win the title unless you're a completely remade team like the 2008 Celtics or something like that. But we, we did the deep dive on here a few weeks back. Like, to me, the combination of like Fox and Wemba Yama playing a full season, it's almost like a free agency coup, right? Wemba Yama leveling up like this, Fox playing a full season. I think they can win the title. I'm not worried about the lack of experience at all, but you know, it does cut against NBA history. And yeah, they're, they're absolutely terrifying to play against. And I think these

• 20:06Speaker 01

  are the top two picks, no matter how you, how you slice it.

• 20:09Bill Simmons?

  So you go 1A, 1B. Yeah. Cause I mean, I'm one of the ones who's, who said, I think you need to taste your own blood in the playoffs before you can win the title. So here's the thing. History says they're not going to win the title this year because it doesn't happen. History also said, we weren't going to be able to have a seven foot seven guy who's this athletic and it's just a fucking alien.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  By the way, for what, maybe you don't care, not you, maybe you, the aggregate you of basketball fans don't care. Like the dude showed up in like the gold medal game of the Olympics in his home country against Team USA and like wanted every bit of that game and that matchup and wanted every bit of Germany and Serbia and everyone else that they could have faced in the, in the Olympics. Those are, those are pretty pressure packed games.

• 20:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. One thing, this is what I've heard from people who've spent time around him. I don't, he's, he's atypical from the previous generation. He doesn't want to be buddies with a lot of these guys. He's not like, oh, cool. I can't, I can't wait to get to know Luka Doncic better. He wants to like destroy all these dudes. He's got a little bit of that Kobe MJ gene that I think could pay, could pay handy in the playoffs. Finals MVP, Fanduel allows you to bet on this. And the Spurs odds like four days ago were like plus 550 to win the title and six to one for Wemby to win finals MVP. That's not dropped. He's plus 550 for finals MVP and Shay is plus

• 21:34Bill Simmons?

  145. And that seems completely fair. You have the third pick in the scary draft. It's where it gets interesting.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  It does indeed get interesting.

• 21:43Bill Simmons?

  I bet we have the same team.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  I, despite the fact that I just watched the Utah Jazz score like 110 points in the paint against them the other night, I'm still picking Denver as the third scary team because I just know what those two dudes can do together. You and I also, the same day on different podcasts, unknowingly talked about, is there now a second team All-NBA case for Jamal Murray with some of these guys falling by the wayside and him having a sensational season? And yeah, their defense is getting shredded right now. I think it's part of, you know, everyone working their way back to conditioning, back into chemistry, back, you know, Peyton Watson's just coming back, Aaron Gordon's been in and out of the lineup and on and on. Part like, we're playing some teams we don't respect at all, like we're,

• 22:31Speaker 01

  we know we're gonna just win the game. And part, you know, wake us up in the playoffs. Now, I don't think there's like a top 10 defense hiding in, inside the number 22 or 23 ranked defense or whatever they are in the NBA, but I think they're better than they've shown. They have won a championship recently and they have the best two man game in the league. And so I'm, I'm still taking Denver 3.

• 22:53Bill Simmons?

  Have you seen, Gordon looks fine.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  He looks, yeah, he looks mostly like Aaron Gordon.

• 22:58Bill Simmons?

  He looks fine, mostly. I feel like he's driving the car right now and he's driving like, he's in fourth gear, driving about like 55 in the Meyer Parkway. Hasn't really swung over into the fast lane yet, just kinda cruising along. Um, there's another gear for him. That's why I don't know what to do with their defense yet, because we haven't seen him do the crazy Aaron Gordon stuff yet. I also had them third. And I think the Celtics have to be fourth, especially if you saw what Jason Tatum did today. Um, where he looked, he looked the most like Jason Tatum that he's looked all season. Um, even kinda yelled at the crowd, like he's, he's getting a little swagger back.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Where, I mean, is there like a, a New England transplant community in Charlotte? It sounded like half the, I mean, I know the Celtics are one of these teams, the fans travel, there's fans everywhere, but that was extremely loud in an arena that has been of like a very good home court arena for Charlotte in every other game I've seen. Even like the Knicks did not have that much of a presence in fan wise.

• 24:00Bill Simmons?

  The Knicks had some, Philly had a bunch yesterday and the Celtics had the most. But I, this seems to be like a recurring theme with these road games with the Celtics. I guess the bigger question is, do, are, does Boston just have the most transplants? Are they just, are there just Boston, Boston cells of people planted in every city? It feels like, cause it happens in baseball too. It's been happening with the Red Sox for around 20 years. The case for the Celtics, I mean, Tatum just came in today with no Jalen Brown or no Derrick White, and just basically ran the offense and looked like the old Tatum again. They have all, all of these bench guys that just seem to be interchangeably effective. And they kind of have everything.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  You've mentioned the bench guys. One of the, the notes I took during the game today was I, I cannot believe that after losing all the guys the Celtics lost in the offseason, that they were able to put out a credible lineup in a, in a competitive game in the second half with Tatum at center. So all wings and guards on a night that Jalen Brown and Derrick White did not play. And you're like, yeah, all these, like, I trust all these guys. Jordan Walsh, yeah, sure, you know, Shireman, you're good. It's, it's just incredible how far all of these guys have come. And it makes you appreciate all the work that must've been going on behind the scenes with the player development coaches. Because it's just like, that would've been unthinkable before the season.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  And yet here they are and they blitzed Charlotte. And I'll tell you the plays that if I'm, if I were a Boston fan, the, what, the Tatum plays that most heartened me were the two pick and rolls where he crossed up Kalkbrenner in a deep drop and just went full blast right at him and finished over and through him. Like that was, those are high level athletic plays. And he may not be all the way back yet, but I, I just continue to just be agape at how awesome he looks. I mean, the efficiency's starting to come now too, but just eye test. I can't believe how good he looks.

• 26:01Bill Simmons?

  Everything is back except for blocks and free throw attempts from the stats from the last five years. The game today, he looked the furthest along. I was thinking about something I would love with, the Celtics have really good reporters. I would love for somebody to ask Tatum this specifically.

• 26:18Bill Simmons?

  I think he's a better passer than he was. And I wonder, when you sit and you watch basketball for, what was it, four and a half, five months, where you're just on the bench like a fan, which he's, these guys have been playing games nonstop since they're six years old. You go to college, you play, you're in the pros, he's playing all the time. I'd love to know, like, just sitting on the bench for that long and just watching, like, did anything about basketball change for him? Because I feel like things slowed down for him a little, and I think he's seeing passing angles that I don't remember him seeing in the same way. And I thought he was a good passer, like, he averaged six assists last year. It sounded like he wasn't a good passer, but something slightly different, and I wonder if it's that.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Well, these guys just keep getting better in different ways, like Jalen Brown leveled up, and the more experience you have, the more you learn. But I do think there's probably something to not only watching it from that angle, but watching your teammates all thrive in elevated roles and say, okay, like, that, you know, maybe I, this pass that maybe I wouldn't have thrown, I can throw this time around. Don't you think, and I mean this the complete opposite way from like, engaging to your turn, my turn concerns, but don't you think these two games without Jalen Brown must be super, super good for Tatum, just to like feel that the full breadth of his game? Like, all right, like, and one without Derrick White, too, like, I can, I can do this and sort of get in even more of a rhythm?

• 27:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I mean, look, I think those guys are great. I don't think there's any sort of alpha dog, car keys stuff. Those guys have been playing, they want to tie it together. But I'm sure, deep down, there's for 3% of Tatum, like, man, this team's running really good with Jalen Brown. I wonder what it would be like if I was just in his spot for two games. And guess what? They didn't miss a beat with him in the same spot. So I do think that's part of it. I also think, what you said, we're talking about watching the teammates. I do wonder if that's part of it too, where you're just sitting on the bench, watching these guys and you're noticing little things about them that you wouldn't notice if you're on the court with them in the same way, right? Like, oh, Sharman loves that spot, or just little stuff. But the way he's fit in so seamlessly, I think speaks to that.

• 28:31Bill Simmons?

  He stayed with the team. And I think some of these guys would have just gone and worked off on their own and, you know, kind of popped in and out. He was with the team the whole time. We have to take a break. The scary playoff draft is about to get really fun because we have San Antonio, OKC, oh, OKC, San Antonio, Denver, Boston. And now it's going to get serious, but we're going to take a break first. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go. Quite like Sam's Club. Snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you got to do.

• 29:12Bill Simmons?

  You got to join the club of Yes End at sam'sclub.com/yesend. You must be 18 years or older to purchase a membership. A membership is subject to qualifications. Visit sam'sclub.com/yesend for details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are great. My favorite family vacation ever, I went to cover the 2012 Olympics in London and I brought my family. My son was five, my daughter was seven, and we were in London for three weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome. Our kids were the right age to travel. That's my number one family vacation I've ever had.

• 29:55Bill Simmons?

  But we've had plenty of those trips where everyone's excited, but you hit the planning part. Suddenly it feels like there's too many moving pieces. You start talking yourself out of it. Can't find the right flight, can't find the right hotel. That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier. And the bundle and save feature is huge. The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now, add more later, keep saving on the way. Book your flight today, attach your hotel tomorrow and you're still good. So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals and save. Savings vary, members only.

• 30:39Bill Simmons?

  Book your next trip with Expedia today.

• 30:44Bill Simmons?

  All right, scary playoff teams draft. I'm on the edge of my seat. This is one series only.

• 30:50Bill Simmons?

  San Antonio, OKC, Denver, Boston, all off the board. Who do you have, Zach Lowe?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you who I don't have, first of all, is the team that lost to the Raptors by 50 something points today.

• 31:00Bill Simmons?

  They were low on my list, too.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  The Orlando Magic will not be my selection. Holy smokes, that feels like, that's, that's an uh oh. That's a, I mean, we were already at uh oh stage. Like, the official uh oh was when Paolo had the like, yeah, we don't make adjustments coming out of halftime thing. And Jamal Mosley was like, well, the only adjustment Detroit made was to play really hard. Losing to the Raptors by 50 something points is an official like, everyone's on notice, so I'm not taking Orlando.

• 31:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, how about they've lost seven of their last eight. The one loss was to.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  The one win.

• 31:33Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the one win was to Sacramento. And there's a thing on NBA Reddit right now that it's called lowlight. This is the headline three hours ago. Arguably the worst stretch of basketball in NBA history. A compilation of all Orlando Magic possessions during Toronto's 31 to nothing run. This is a four minute YouTube clip that you could easily find now. That's a cry for help.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Now, I've been watching games all night and not engaging with, I haven't been on Twitter, I haven't like been following it. Is, is that the biggest run?

• 32:05Bill Simmons?

  It's the record.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Like something to zero run in the history of the NBA?

• 32:07Bill Simmons?

  Yes, they said as far back as they have ever measured play by play. But they don't know, it might have happened in like 1948. There's some years, missing years. Anyway, who's your fifth pick?

• 32:20Speaker 01

  I will go.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  You know, against my better judgment, I will go with the Knicks as the, as the fifth pick in the draft.

• 32:30Bill Simmons?

  I did not have them fifth.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I still respect this core.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Another loss to the Thunder tonight. You know, got blitzed by the Hornets the other night in Charlotte. So it's not, it's not trending great. We're back on like the, the cat seesaw where it's like, cat's invisible, cat's being benched, cat has taken three shots and then cat has like 12 points in two minutes and everything's fine. And like I, it just blows my mind how often we ride the same roller coaster with him. I still think there is, when they click, they can reach a pretty goddamn high level and they are top six on both ends of the court. So I, and yet there are all these reasons where you're like, do, do I really trust them against

• 33:16Speaker 01

  the best, best, best teams? But I'm still taking the Knicks and it's worth noting, they don't hate the Celtics matchup that, that is looming in the second round of the playoffs.

• 33:24Bill Simmons?

  They shouldn't. That's a team they've had a lot of success against. They should not hate it.

• 33:31Bill Simmons?

  Lot of Knicks questions for me, but mainly, why is this team always down 10 to 12 points against good teams? And they're, they're rallying back or they don't, but why, why is everything so hard with the Knicks?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And they have, they have a, the starting lineup has just been okay and not, not as good as it should be, given the high wattage people that are in it. I just don't know what the right move is. They started, remember this, they started the season with Hart coming off the bench and immediately concluded like, this guy's the heartbeat of our team. We can't function without him. The obvious one would be Bridges. I just don't think 70 something games into the season, they have the wherewithal to do it.

• 34:09Bill Simmons?

  This is who they are.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  And, and so, but yeah, and now they have Deuce McBride back. So they have a, they have a deep roster that they've got to figure out now too.

• 34:17Bill Simmons?

  Assuming he didn't get hurt today.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  That's true. That there was that, but just, there's just Dort, four Dort collisions every game where it's just like, okay, there's a, there's, there's the Dort, the Dort pile over there.

• 34:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's really the, uh, he's carrying the torch from Bruce Bowen, the old Ron Artest. There's just certain guys that these accidents seem to find them somehow. I had the Lakers in the five spot, so I'm taking them here. For one series, if, if I know Smart and LeBron are healthy and I have to play Luka and I have to beat them four times in seven.

• 34:53Bill Simmons?

  And I'm also looking at some of the foul stuff that happens with them that we don't need to belabor.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  You bring it up every time. You can't resist.

• 35:01Bill Simmons?

  They're like five more free throw attempts a game, I think, for the last five years.

• 35:08Bill Simmons?

  And I just think they're really hard to play, especially at the end of these games. When it's a two-point game with four minutes left, you just feel like they're gonna win. And they could have two guys on the court that are just complete zeros offensively, and it doesn't seem to matter for them. And I would not want to see them in a playoff series. So I'm taking them fifth. Who do you have?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  So we're just, to be clear, we're just doing like scary teams. We're not doing like if the bracket, the bracket breaks like this, just blah blah.

• 35:33Bill Simmons?

  Pure scariness.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Then with apologies to Detroit and I guess Cleveland, I'm going Minnesota. And it's been a rocky month for Minnesota with Ant out of the lineup in the last few games. Every time you think Randall has like rediscovered his verb a little bit, even if it's like an eight of 19 game, but he looks frisky and he's doing, he's doing something. He has a two of 13, you know, lays an egg like he did the other night against Detroit. Now, no J.D. McDaniels that game, no Ants, whatever, but Io's been out the last couple of games, too. That's a little problematic. I don't, I think he has a calf thing. That's a scary word, the C-word, calf.

• 36:12Bill Simmons?

  He has the new C-word. That's a great point.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's the C-word. We'll just call it the NBA's C-word.

• 36:18Bill Simmons?

  The NBA's C-word. I like it.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Conference Finals, two years in a row. Scoff at it if you wish. Io's the perfect bench addition for them, and they have a guy. They have one guy who is just like, you talk about Luca being terrifying in a playoff series? Absolutely Luca is terrifying. Anthony Edwards can, can reach his version of that terror alert level. So I'm, I'm sticking with my.

• 36:38Bill Simmons?

  I thought you were talking about Bones Highland.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Well, Bones, wave, wave to the bench, baby. Bones, Bones, Bones.

• 36:45Bill Simmons?

  Listen, for a playoff series, these are the kind of guys that swing a playoff series when Bones Highland just has 30 in a game four.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:53Bill Simmons?

  We've seen it. I like the Minnesota pick. I thought I was inspired.

• 37:00Bill Simmons?

  And you've inspired me as well. See this game you were dubious of, you were like, oh, what is this? The best. Now you, now you get it, which is why this is where we're going for the next pick. This is the eighth pick.

• 37:12Bill Simmons?

  Recency bias. There's no way it'll continue for an entire playoff series. I don't care.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 37:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't care.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  It's happening.

• 37:19Bill Simmons?

  Philadelphia is scary. That was unbelievable yesterday. Embiid was awesome in that game, including the winning block where they showed a replay and both of his feet were like a foot off the floor. Paul George had a 26 and 13. This is against Charlotte for the people who missed this. Maxey looked great and I thought the team was really locked in, wanted the game. I thought they really intimidated Charlotte and some of the stuff they did defensively, I was, I was kind of shocked by. They were blitzing those little handoff things and those little pick and pop plays they do. They're picking up LaMelo at half court. They were really physical. I just thought, I thought it was like a playoff performance. Now granted, Charlotte probably

• 38:02Bill Simmons?

  didn't see it coming. Charlotte played the Knicks Thursday. They had the Celtics today. It was the sandwich game.

• 38:08Bill Simmons?

  I was impressed. So for, I don't think they're the one, they, one of the eight best teams, but from ceiling scariness standpoint, they're number eight for me.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Well, and we're talking one series, right? Like, we're not talking like, can this team hold together for three playoff rounds or four playoffs?

• 38:22Bill Simmons?

  Which they won't.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Cause I don't think.

• 38:23Bill Simmons?

  They're not going to.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  We, we know that. And your, your caveat at the beginning was you get the fully healthy version of this team. So like, that's the version that has existed for maybe 72 hours in the last calendar year, but.

• 38:36Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Sure. I, I'm, I, it's, it's now is the time. It's just, we've waited too long.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Cleveland is my pick. The Cleveland Cavaliers, Jared Allen got back healthy. This is an extremely dynamic top four. Struce is back. Tons of options for like the remainder of the minutes with all the guards that they have.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Just it just feels like it's been an eh season for the Cavs in a lot of different ways. They had to get off of Garland. They have James Harden, who I know you don't trust, and nor should we in a game six or game seven of a playoff series. Even Donovan Mitchell's in a slump right now. Jared Allen's coming off knee tendonitis. Evan Mobley is just, he's very good and he's not making the next leap to great that we're all sort of waiting for. Struce has been out the whole year. I think this is a really good team. I, I, they're actually one of the more, I, I still don't really know what to make of them. I think it's been about 20 games with Harden. Their offense has been sensational. Their defense has been crap, but the big four guys have barely played any minutes together. And if there's one thing that I'm really curious to watch for these last six, seven,

• 39:43Speaker 01

  eight games, half of which are just tankathons around the league, it's, it's that. It's I want to see those four guys, Mitchell, Harden, Mobley, Allen. How does that look together? Cause I think there's a really high ceiling here that it feels like the NBA cognoscenti has just sort of moved away from them and in this like Boston hoopla, which is very well deserved with Tatum going back and all the stuff going on out West and what Cade and is he going to come back healthy? Cleveland's just kind of there to the side and I, I think we gotta bring them back center stage a little bit.

• 40:19Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes this is not your year. Starting, starting to wonder if that's

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Well, we've said that about Denver too, right? Who was the third pick in the draft? Denver obviously has a player that's better than anyone they have.

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  Tell you this, if I was a Cavs fan, wouldn't be happy about the Clippers box scores lately.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  And their net rating with Garland on the floor as well has been, has been.

• 40:43Bill Simmons?

  None of, none of what has happened with Darius Garland on the Clippers would make me happy if I was a Cavs fan.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 40:49Bill Simmons?

  Because you just did the rarely seen old guy for a guy about to hit his prime, who had kind of had a rocky couple of years, but there were real reasons for it with injuries. And you bailed because you thought he had a chance to win the title. Now you're probably going to be the fourth seed in the East. You just went 10th in our scary teams draft.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Which, but which

• 41:07Bill Simmons?

  And you gave up Garland.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Which, as you noted though, fourth, if that's indeed where they end up and they have a very easy schedule.

• 41:14Bill Simmons?

  It's a great, fourth is a great spot. Maybe that's part of this is they're delighted to be fourth.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  And you know who we haven't drafted yet in the scary teams draft?

• 41:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, you, you're not up yet.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  I know.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Can you take him or not?

• 41:27Bill Simmons?

  No, I have Detroit.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Okay, that's what I'm talking about, like.

• 41:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I thought you were talking about another team. Yeah, it's Detroit and I said this to Goldsberry Thursday in a weird way, not having K for a couple of weeks. And seeing this new level for Jenkins, maybe will help them in the playoffs, but I still wonder, I don't, I don't think they.

• 41:48Bill Simmons?

  They have holes that I just worry about with some of the teams that they're gonna have to play like when they play the Celtics and the Celtics can throw those two big wings at them, Tatum and Brown. And their wings are Tobias Harris and Robinson and Herter and Javonte Green like.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  And Asar Thompson, Asar Thompson gonna be harassing somebody.

• 42:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, but he's probably gonna have to guard one of the guards on the Celtics, right? Like White or, I don't see, that's the part, I don't know, I just feel like there's a physicality with the two wings that they're gonna have issues with. Asar Thompson now winning the Thompson Brothers, uh, who's having a better season contest now, he's like minus 200.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Hard disagree. I think I, I listened to you.

• 42:26Bill Simmons?

  Hard disagree.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  I listened to you and Kirk on Amen Thompson. Um, I.

• 42:32Bill Simmons?

  Is this Amen Thompson apologies?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  No, I just like, in, in what, in what, I, I, I don't know if, if people's expectations for him just got out of control. You guys were talking like he's having a, like he's trending down. Kirk said he's trending the wrong way. Maybe.

• 42:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, nobody, nobody guards him anymore.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  But no one guarded him ever. He's, he's.

• 42:53Bill Simmons?

  I thought he was gonna get better at it though.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  He's 23 years old. He's averaging 18, eight rebounds, five assists a game after averaging 14, eight rebounds, four assists a game. Yes, he's shooting a little bit worse this year. 56% on twos, down from 60% on twos. Free throws are, by the way, quietly, and this is the most encouraging part. He's shooting 78% from the line, which, which, but I, I just, to me. He's more or less kind of what I expected him to be this year. I did not think that he was gonna be like, oh, now suddenly it's, he's gonna be a point guard and he's gonna be a 20 and point eight assist guy. That's not who he is. And in fact, they'll look, they're just the weirdest team in the league.

• 43:35Bill Simmons?

  Which one would you rather have?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 43:38Bill Simmons?

  Over, over Assar?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, they're both awesome. I would love to have either one of them on my team. I think he has a little bit more offensive creativity to him. Now, he's been able to show that more than Assar has, but I am curious to see now that, I mean, the Houston is the weirdest team. They are unwatchable one night.

• 43:56Bill Simmons?

  They've not been drafted yet.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Interesting. No, and I don't think they're gonna be next, but I am interested to see more of this. Okay, we've now committed to starting Reed Shepard, in part because Tari Eason hasn't made a shot in three months and he's left us no choice but to start Reed Shepard. But now we've starting Reed Shepard. That puts Amen Thompson, I think, into a more natural role for this stage of his career, and I'm interested to see just sort of how that looks.

• 44:21Bill Simmons?

  I took Detroit. So now here are the teams that, well, there's one, two, we'll go faster. I can't wait to see who's last. Who do you have next? I just took Detroit.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Where do, where do we, we're cutting off at the 10 teams in each conference that are in that we're doing all 20?

• 44:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, we can go fast. I'm more interested to see who goes last.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Of course you are. So we can't pick the hypothetical Bucks with Yanis is like, yeah, they're only 10 games out.

• 44:48Bill Simmons?

  They're out, they're out.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  All right, you picked Detroit, so that leaves.

• 44:53Bill Simmons?

  You have Charlotte, Atlanta, the Clippers, Orlando, Houston, and Toronto are all left.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Charlotte, no question. I think this is actually, I want to say it's too low for Charlotte, but I don't know who I would, who I would remove, you know.

• 45:05Bill Simmons?

  Tough weekend for Charlotte.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Interesting moment, actually, for Charlotte, because it's been nothing but, you know, flowers and candy for three months, and, and three months is not a short amount of time. They've been like number one or number two in net rating for a long half the season now. And they have been looking at this stretch of their schedule as, okay, let's see what this looks like. And they started off with just raucous home win over the Knicks. That feels like, all right, we've arrived. Everyone's watching this game. This is the kickoff of a brutal end of our schedule, and we just like ace the test. Philly comes in, that's a, you know, a win. I think Charlotte should expect to win that game based on how these teams have played this season. And Philly sneaks it out in the end, and it's like, oh, they got some.

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  And Charlotte, Charlotte blew the game, too.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Well, but it's like.

• 45:52Bill Simmons?

  They were in the bonus with like seven minutes left, and I don't know. That game made me a little nervous because the crowd got nervous and their offense fell apart, and everybody all of a sudden looked like they'd never been in a big game before, and it made you go. Oh yeah, that's why we don't decide this stuff with net rating. You actually have to use your savvy in games like this and they didn't really have it.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Today, back to back, fine. Boston was rested. They were in Charlotte last night, back to back off a tough game, but no Derrick White, no Jalen Brown and kinda got outclassed and a little frazzled offensively. Now, I still think they're an extremely dynamic and very dangerous team, but this is, they play the Knicks, I think on Tuesday or Wednesday. This is an interesting little moment for them, like at Madison Square Garden, coming off these two losses, you know, and real stuff at stake, like you want to get to eighth. At the very least, you want to get to eighth to get into the top half of the play in game. Like I'm very interested to see how they respond, but the track record of the last three months is holy crap. So I'm very happily taking them here.

• 46:58Bill Simmons?

  They were before the game yesterday, they were number one in net rating for 40 games.

• 47:04Bill Simmons?

  40 games is half the season. Every sort of net rating thing, they were number one, number two, number three. If you did 25 games, 20, 30. The last two games were not great though. And I do think they have a flaw other than the lack of experience. They don't have anyone on their team who can guard those maxi Mitchell types. And you could say, oh, well, nobody has a guy like that. Well, then there's also Brunson. You go on down the line and it's just those guys kinda can do whatever they want against Charlotte. So that's one thing. And then, you know, they, they looked a little small against Embiid. A lot of teams do, but physically I thought they had Grant Williams on him in the fourth quarter, kinda because they didn't really have any other options, right? So

• 47:46Speaker 01

  That didn't bother me much.

• 47:48Bill Simmons?

  They're a year away, I think is my point. But I do think if I had to pick who could go further in a play in the playoffs, Charlotte or Philly, I would take Charlotte. Who would I be more scared of for one series? Philly.

• 48:01Bill Simmons?

  Forgive me hypothetical.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  The hypothetical Sixers. I get it. Embiid is. Embiid just walks into 30 points and.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  That 20 footer thing he does.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It's just automatic. I mean, it's.

• 48:15Bill Simmons?

  Where it's like.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  You're surprised he misses.

• 48:18Bill Simmons?

  Two, two, two, and then all of a sudden you're shooting and it just works every time.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  But it's a good point about Maxie because I watched and I was, you know, tracking who they assigned to Maxie and it was Knipple at the start of each half and like, you know, we all love Carpool Khan as Van calls him, but that's a tough matchup for him and it, but it's, it like, it feels like it should be Brandon Miller, but Brandon Miller often needs to guard somebody bigger or is not quite ready for you. Then it's like, all right, Cian James, we gotta play you more. That's probably bad for our offense, but can you come on Josh Green? Like it's, it's a tough matchup. And then Embiid bullying them. Like you said, you know, that's how the brawl started. Jalen Durin was just like, oh, Musa Diabate, you're an awesome story. We love the antlers, guest on the podcast, all that, but like, how about I just beat the shit out of you? Cause I'm like much, much bigger than you.

• 49:07Bill Simmons?

  50 pounds heavier than you. Yeah.

• 49:12Bill Simmons?

  Khan was, I think, well, Khan and Lamelo together were 10 for 40 yesterday. They're not winning many games with that.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:17Bill Simmons?

  But part of it was because Khan had to chase around Maxie for a whole bunch of it. See, I'm making excuses. All right, we'll go quickly. I'll take Atlanta next. So let's, let's go rapid fire here and see who's last.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Houston.

• 49:32Bill Simmons?

  I'll go Clippers.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I thought about it. Now we're, now I'm, now it's.

• 49:39Bill Simmons?

  Now it's getting grim.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Now it's grim for me. Um, so I can't theoretically make Jimmy Butler healthy. Like that doesn't, that doesn't count.

• 49:47Bill Simmons?

  No, he's, he's.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:49Bill Simmons?

  That would, that would be bending the rules.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Miami.

• 49:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I'll take Toronto.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  So we're.

• 49:56Bill Simmons?

  Three left.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Oh God. Okay. All right.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  You know what? I'm gonna happily take the Warriors cuz I get theoretically healthy Steph and healthy Porzingis. Let me see it. Let's go. I'll go to work with those guys. I'll go. I'll take him.

• 50:13Bill Simmons?

  I'll take Phoenix then.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I forgot about Phoenix.

• 50:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, you can have Phoenix. I'll take Golden State.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  No, I'm taking Golden State. Come on, just even for just nostalgia, I'm taking Golden State.

• 50:26Bill Simmons?

  So Portland's last?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  No, you forgot. We have, there's two teams left.

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  Who else?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Someone else is so last that you forgot that they're even in the draft.

• 50:35Bill Simmons?

  Who was it?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Orlando.

• 50:38Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, I skipped over them. Yeah, they're last.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  That means they're last. I think they lose.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they lose. Orlando loses.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  If you, if we do this draft on the day you give up a 31-0 run, you come last. You lose.

• 50:51Bill Simmons?

  You lose. There's though, every year a coach gets fired with like two weeks to go. That's not gonna happen in Orlando, is it?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  I don't think so. It's actually a conversation I've had with a few people and coaching agents around the league is, you know, we're a year removed from the Adelman, Taylor Jenkins double. What the hell just happened? And is that, are we gonna see any of that this year? But that certainly feels like a scorching seat right now.

• 51:18Bill Simmons?

  A couple other quick things.

• 51:22Bill Simmons?

  That, so if we don't get Curry,

• 51:27Bill Simmons?

  and we're close to knowing whether we're gonna get Curry or not. Curry's basically said if he doesn't get a couple ramp up games, TM LeBron James, if he did, who is the key, who started ramp up?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Embiid. Embiid is ramping up all the time.

• 51:38Bill Simmons?

  TM Embiid. The 9-10 playing game in the West with no Curry, do we even televise it? Should it just be terrestrial radio? What do we do with that game?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Tape delay. We go back to tape delay?

• 51:52Bill Simmons?

  Portland, Golden State, do we, do we do maybe an AI broadcast with just AI characters?

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I can't believe you're saying this about a Scoot Henderson team. Of all people, you should be, this is Scoot, this is Scoot showing some, now every, every third game is-

• 52:08Bill Simmons?

  Don't do this to me. I can't, I can't.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  He's showing some signs. That's all I'm saying. But then, then there'll be every third game. It's like he had how many turnovers? But I, I'm still, I wouldn't, you gotta hold until the end.

• 52:21Bill Simmons?

  Miami today was so bad, losing to Indiana, a team that was the first tanking team that actually had people making like Shawshank Warden, people telling the Indiana Warden telling Jay Huff, he has to miss the two free throws kind of jokes. And Indiana just killed Miami today. Indiana definitely doesn't want to win anymore ever. And Miami lost to them by 15.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And they beat the, the Pacers beat Orlando last week too.

• 52:53Bill Simmons?

  Miami seems happy to be the 10 seed and I wonder if it's intentional because it's actually a better draft pick and they probably feel like, what do we care? We'll get to the plan. We can beat any of these teams anyway. So let's just mess around. That's the only other explanation other than they're terrible. So I'll give you those two choices. Like we don't really care where we are, or we're just, we haven't been good this whole time.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I think it's more closer to just, we're a pretty mediocre team.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 53:53Bill Simmons?

  March Madness stuff really quick. I asked you to look up, so the lottery, you're not a lottery guy, but I asked you to go look at some clips because we have two different things happening with the NBA draft. We have the top four, which everybody's now going to argue about. All four guys are now out of the NCAA tournament. DeBansa, Darren Peterson, Cam Boozer.

• 54:21Bill Simmons?

  Caleb Wilson.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  I am, I do have to say, I am gonna miss dad Carlos Boozer dropping F bombs in the stands. That was a

• 54:27Bill Simmons?

  Torn in the St. John's crowd, yeah.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  That was, that was a good time.

• 54:30Bill Simmons?

  So we have those four, and that's gonna be a great argument in itself of just who could, and a lot of it's gonna turn in on who gets the top four picks, all that stuff. Five, six, seven has now turned into its own awesome argument, and it's Burries from Arizona, who I absolutely love, and I think is my favorite. I don't think he's gonna be the best part in this draft, but I think he's my favorite. Wogler on Illinois, who's been just incredible and has dragged them to the final four. And Acuff on Arkansas. And they're gonna go five, six, seven in some order, and some of it's gonna depend on who has those picks, because if you have a point guard, maybe you take Burries. But I just asked you to look at their YouTube clips really quickly and give me your Malcolm Gladwell blink test

• 55:14Bill Simmons?

  of what you saw. So we'll do, let's do Burries first. What'd you see?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed just getting, giving myself just enough knowledge to be dangerous, to have strong opinions.

• 55:25Bill Simmons?

  That's what I was hoping for.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Based on, based on nothing.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Burries, I, I may have liked the best of the three. Super physical, like plays, plays bigger than his height and his size, plays defense. Jumper looked like the release was a little slow at times, but when he needed to speed it up, he sped it up from what I saw.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Active off the ball, like all these guys, you need to be a good off-ball player too. And I think Acuff is too, like you need to learn how to play off the ball as a secondary ball handler. And there's like a lot of back cuts and coming off pin downs in the Burries, in the Burries tape. But I, he, he plays, I think he was listed as 6'4", Acuff is listed as 6'3". He plays bigger than 6'4", and just the physicality was, was kinda interesting to me.

• 56:13Bill Simmons?

  He's definitely a little Booker-ish. When you, I don't, like, he was, he won the state title in California last year and was an awesome offensive player in high school. Arizona has a million guys, so they don't need the offense that way. So there's some Steph Castle potential with him, where there's more there, we're just not seeing it because he's trying to win a title. The defense rebounding hustle stuff, competitive stuff.

• 56:37Bill Simmons?

  I just have zero doubts. Give me all the stock. I'll take all of it. And I think when you see a team, I think he could potentially go four if it was a team that didn't need a forward and was like, you know what we really need is a two-guard. Because he's like, perfect two-guard. So, we're aligned, he's my favorite. Would you, I have a specific thing for Wogler, but what did you think when you saw him?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Weird, weird player. And I actually watched a little bit of their Elite Eight game too. Because they're Team Croatia, they're Team Yugoslavia. Like, they've just, it's like a whole Yugoslavian team that has migrated there.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  He's, he's a very weird player. He moves, and I don't mean that in a bad way, he just has weird movement patterns, like a, like a lot of step backs, a lot of spin moves. He's obviously the tallest of the three and he leverages that for all it's worth. I think he's only, he only hit like 47, 48% on twos, which is a little discouraging, but the guy can really shoot and he can pass. He's just, he's the weirdest of the three and the one that I was like, I need to actually watch even more on this guy because he's a little, he's a little strange. But clearly, there's something there.

• 57:45Bill Simmons?

  To me, there's a lot of A.J. Mitchell, but the ceiling would be higher. But same kind of like, very unconventional, weird, herky-jerky game.

• 57:57Bill Simmons?

  Like Brunson, they obviously have different bodies, but he just kind of knows how to play basketball and how to get shots that he wants to get. And doesn't really seem to care how many tall guys are around him, what the angles are. There's a competitiveness with him that I think, the tournament, sometimes we can overreact to, but I think it matters that he was the best guy on this team that was an 11 seed that dragged him there. I also like that he's an overachiever. He wasn't a top 100 recruit. He wasn't like, in the ESPN Top 100, so he's been like a late bloomer. And I like that those guys have the chip on their shoulder. I have Acuff ahead of him, but I think it's... I think it's it's 50 50.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  I'd like I'd like to watch more because I did find myself thinking as I watched 11 minutes on YouTube, to be clear.

• 58:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's with the blink test scouting.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I did find myself thinking, how does this translate to a league where everybody's a little taller than the guys that he's facing now?

• 58:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  And his height is a little bit less of a superpower at the guard spot.

• 58:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what I think about with Cam Boozer because I watched a lot of Duke the last five weeks.

• 59:05Bill Simmons?

  His his big go to move is he basically he bullies you and he does these little spin moves and ends up with like the same either jump hook or little turnaround. And his goal is always to get as close to the basket as possible, which you can do in high school and you can even do in college. And I don't know if he can do it in the pros in the same way as comfortably. And what he never really seemed to shoot was that little 12 to 13 footer that Koop Pete on Arizona has.

• 59:32Bill Simmons?

  I think Koop Pete is basically kind of Boozer ish. I'm sure somebody at some point will roll out a take of Koop Pete's actually going to be better than Cam Boozer and hear the five reasons why. But he has this really nice foul line jumper that he's always setting up and Boozer's always. And that that's the kind of stuff you just don't know until you get to the NBA and all of a sudden, you know, Jaren Jaren Durren's waiting for you.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  I I will say.

• 59:58Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Durren, I don't know why I called him Jaren Durren.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  I will say.

• 1:00:03Bill Simmons?

  What do you have for a cuff, by the way?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Well, hold on, I want to talk about Cam Boozer for a second.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  I'm just looking at the box score from so again, I.

• 1:00:12Bill Simmons?

  Puts up stats every game.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  I want to watch, I want to sit down and watch more because I have very limited information.

• 1:00:17Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna have to this year because this is like a once in a decade top nine.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  So this is the only Cam Boozer experience I have was Friday night, fifth grade play at my daughter's elementary school. We have some people over afterwards. Everyone wants to have the Duke game, Duke St. John's. Obviously, we're in St. John's country. St. John's is America's team. Anyone playing Duke is America's team. St. John's is winning. We throw it on, so it's on in the background. We're talking, there's social, I can't say I'm watching it carefully. But when I looked up, I was like. Okay, I'm a little underwhelmed. Like, I was excited for my first, like, a big game look at Cam Boozer, and he put up numbers and it was like, good, but I expected him to pop a little bit more than he did in that game.

• 1:01:03Bill Simmons?

  That's not what he does. He's, I'm trying to think of the perfect-

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  He's a basketball player, though, right? He's just like, he's a good basketball-

• 1:01:08Bill Simmons?

  Really smart, he's in the red spots, he's cool as a cucumber, and he gets his stats. But, the Caleb Wilson, somebody will cut an 11-minute Caleb Wilson tape and you're gonna be like, is this guy Yannis? Like, that's the difference between those two. A Cuff, so, oh, go A Cuff really quick.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Smooth as silk, like, just so smooth. If he were two or three inches taller, would he be in the conversation to be the number one pick in the draft? Because he's just-

• 1:01:37Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  The change, the change of pace, the hesitation, the variety of finishes, the self, the control, the mid-range game, the passing vision, like, so smooth. Not like a blowaway, north-south athlete, but kind of, like, I was gonna, it's kind of Shea-like in the way that he just knows how to get a little bit of separation one way or another. Not, not as blowaway as an athlete as Shea, not as big as Shea, but just so smooth, so under control. I can see why everybody loves him so much.

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  Lot of Kyrie, there's a little Chris Paul in there, like, game manager, general stuff. It's just his ball. His teammates get a rebound and they just, it's one of those.

• 1:02:20Bill Simmons?

  We'll see with the size. The people are worried about the defense with him and, like, I don't know, how many point guards have we had that were awesome where they weren't good defensively and it was fine? I'm not, I'm not as worried about the defense as other stuff. Okay.

• 1:02:35Bill Simmons?

  I want to talk about expansion really quick, because I have a bunch of intel.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Lay out. I'm laying out.

• 1:02:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm interested in your take on some of this stuff. I think this is a fascinating sports story because of how the league has handled this, what the reality of it is versus what they presented to the fans and to the media. They've made it seem like, what's your take as you've read all this stuff? What is your take on will expansion happen, all that, like just knowing nothing? Or knowing what you've read and that's it?

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  I mean, all right, if I, if I excised all the private conversations I've had, I would say like, it seems like it's on the path to happening that Adam Silver has basically announced, like barring some unforeseen circumstances, we're having a Vegas team and a Seattle team.

• 1:03:24Bill Simmons?

  Right. So if you live in Seattle and you read and consumed all this stuff the last week or so, you're like, this is amazing. We're getting the Sonics back. Here we go. That's not what's happening. And I think it's really weird how the league is handling this because there's two things going on. One is they don't have the votes. And two, this is a two-part process where part one is you get the 30 owners together and they have to vote and you need 23 votes to proceed. And basically Silver is going, I want to see what we can get for these two teams. We've decided it's going to be Seattle and Vegas.

• 1:04:02Bill Simmons?

  We haven't decided if we're expanding yet, but let's see what kind of price we can get for each of those. And then I'll bring that back to you and we can vote on it.

• 1:04:12Bill Simmons?

  So the analogy would be you live on a block and two people sold their houses on your block. And you're going, huh, that, those went a little higher than I thought.

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  Should we sell our house? And your family goes, we don't want to move. What do we want to sell our house for? It's like, well, I'm just going to ask a realtor like what they think we could get. And the realtor goes, all right, I'll, I'll ask around and see what it's worth. It's basically what Silver's doing. That's not how it was presented. And what's really interesting, not only did they not have the votes, but I think it got a little testy in the board of, board of governors. When they were all together last week with some people are like, why are we doing this? I'm never voting for this. This is stupid. We're not doing this. And I think what's happening really, if you want to dig deeper, is there's this new generation of owners, a little like what we had 20 years ago with Cuban and Witka Rosbeck, like the younger guys that were coming in.

• 1:05:09Bill Simmons?

  And they just kind of thought about the league differently. I think that's happening again. So you have Chisholm, who just got the Celtics. You have Ryan Smith, who just got Utah. You have Fertitta in Houston, who's been there for a while, but I still think he's closer to the newer generation than the old one. You have the Charlotte guys that just got the team. You have Ishby in Phoenix and you have A-Rod and Laurie in Minnesota. All of those guys intend on owning their teams for a while, right? They bought in, they want to win a title, they want to compete. If you're doing this, you're bringing two more franchises into the league. Now I have a 1 and 32 chance of winning the title, not 1 and 30, right? So now I just have two more people I have to compete against, that's one thing. I'm giving up 2 32nd of my media share.

• 1:05:54Bill Simmons?

  I go from 1 30th to 1 32nd. And I don't really see the point of why I'm doing that. These guys are all rich for a reason. Why would I do this? Seems to be the prevailing theme. Now I'm talking about Dolan, who's been against this from the get-go. How about the guy who just bought Portland, Dundon? Right? Why would he want a Seattle expansion team two hours away? He's not voting for this. How about rich competitive dudes like Ballmer? What does Ballmer want more teams in the league for? What does he care about $500 million? You know, oh, if we sell for 8 billion each, everyone gets a check for 500 million. I have more on that in a second, too. What does he care? He just wants to win the title. You're making his odds worse.

• 1:06:39Bill Simmons?

  You're taking his media money away. And then there's Wild Card, like Joe Siz is another one. He doesn't need money. Walter just bought the Lakers. I have no idea what Vivek's doing ever and Dumont on Dallas, who knows? So I just listed, that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 owners. That I've either, I know they're against it, or they're, or you know, probably not. So that's one thing. The other thing is, in the hypothetical fairytale world where they could get 8 billion a team, do you know how fucking hard that is to get 8 billion dollars? Where you'd have to write an 8 billion dollar check for a team? And people point to the Lakers went for 10 billion. They didn't really go for 10 billion. It was like four, seven, because the guy already owned a big chunk of the team.

• 1:07:23Bill Simmons?

  He definitely got outside investor money to help him out with it. I don't know if he had to pay for it all at once. Same thing for Chisholm. He was able to get the Mattel family from India to throw in a billion dollars. They inherited all this debt. Like, he basically scraped it together. Minnesota, it took them four years just to pay, what, 1.7 billion? Something like that? Utah paid 1.4. I don't think they have any chance of getting 8 billion dollars. The more people I talk to and the more people I look at it. And I think Adam is floating it out like that's the number. Who's paying that? And why would you pay 8 billion dollars for a team in Seattle? So A, I don't think they have the money. I don't think they have the money lined up. I don't think there are groups out there.

• 1:08:06Bill Simmons?

  B, I don't think the owners are going to necessarily vote for it, even if they do get 8 billion a team. And if it's like five to six, they're definitely not voting for it. And I don't really understand the point of any of this. Why not just be transparent and say, "Hey,

• 1:08:23Bill Simmons?

  we're just curious to see what we get for these expansion teams. This doesn't mean we're going to have expansion." Instead, you've completely led this poor Seattle people on, who now think they're getting a team. And I don't know if that's true. So that's my, that's my rant.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  I think that's all fair. And certainly 8 to 10 billion dollars, you have a very narrow universe of potential buyers. Assuming you don't, I mean, you don't want a 20-person group coming in, because that's proven problematic in other places, having so many minority owners.

• 1:08:56Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a very small universe of people. And yeah, I mean, Adam, at one point in the press conference last week was careful to say, you know, "We didn't approve expansion today. We approved the exploration of expansion." But it does, I mean, they've, they've, they, they, 28, 29 kind of came out. I don't remember the exact. Origin of like, who said that first and when that came out, but it certainly was not like rebutted by the league office when 2829 is like these teams starting came out and like that's aggressive. I mean, it's 2026 right now. Like that's, there's a lot to do to get a team up and running. And you raise like, I, I, I'd like to go back and listen to it because when I had Ishpi on

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  my show a couple of months ago at your house, actually I, I recorded at your house.

• 1:09:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  I asked him about this and he was, he, he was a little

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  non, let's see, I, I basically asked him, do you think they have the votes like, and he was pretty noncommittal about it. And I just sort of put that in the back of my mind.

• 1:10:01Bill Simmons?

  They don't have the votes. I'm just telling you they don't. Now, whether they can swing a couple of people, maybe like even I noticed Houston, did you follow that them getting the WNBA team for 300 million?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Bill Simmons?

  Is that a scratch your back? Now you scratch mine with a vote kind of situation? Cause that was really weird that Houston, who already lost a WNBA team, just took a team from Connecticut that why wouldn't that go to the Celtics? When the Celtics wanted it or another city? Like, I thought that was weird. I think all this is really weird and I don't understand why it was presented the way it was. And that when my shit detector started going off, it was a Monday morning news, news leak, which as we know, Monday morning is always when you put a story out trying to set the tone for the week. And they put it out in a way that made me think this almost seems like they're testing this out to see what the reaction is.

• 1:10:53Bill Simmons?

  Like they're either trying to convince the fans, this is a good idea, or they're trying to convince the votes that they don't have, that this is a good idea. I do not think they have the votes.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Let's flip it around. What, why is it like, why is it a good idea? Like is beyond like, it would feel good to have the Sonics back. Would feel like righting a wrong and Vegas is Vegas. Like what, what, what is the, if financially it's,

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  it's murky enough that some owners will vote no based on the money, right? Like based on the expansion fee, short-term boost versus the long-term reduction in our media rights share. If financially it's murky enough that some owners will know based on that version, based on that data point alone. What is the reason for this? Because I don't, I do agree with you. I don't think anyone is like clamoring for more teams. I don't, I'm not necessarily worried about talent dilution. I think you can support 32 pretty healthy NBA teams on a talent level. But I also like, no one is sitting there being like, we just have an overabundance of talent. Like we could, we need like six more teams. No one is saying this.

• 1:12:00Bill Simmons?

  No, I mean, the players union, it's 30, 30 more jobs for them, right? So they, they're pro.

• 1:12:08Bill Simmons?

  I, I can only think of a couple of things. One is you're establishing a value of a franchise, right? The Celtics sale established a number and then the Lakers sale established an even bigger number. The Celtics number is legitimate. The Lakers number is flawed because if you're trying to buy a percentage of a team that gives you the majority, you're going to overpay for that majority to get the final result. So you say it's 10, but I don't know. If you're in a vacuum, nobody's paying 10 billion for the Lakers or just cutting a check and handing it to somebody. They already had a piece of it. So I, to me, it seems like they're trying to establish the, the, the number that then becomes the number. Well, this is what we got for our expansion team.

• 1:12:52Bill Simmons?

  This is what our franchises are worth.

• 1:12:56Bill Simmons?

  If the goal is we have to right a wrong in Seattle, first of all, you never should have took the team from Seattle in the first place. And I have two save our Sonics mailbags from 2008 that I did at the time. It was criminal when it happened. I still can't believe it happened. They let it happen and they didn't rectify it for almost 20 years. You can't then say, well, we're going to add two more teams to fix the wrong we did in Seattle. Especially when you have a couple of teams that you have to seriously think about, are they in the right markets? Right? First of all, if you're going to move into Seattle, why wouldn't the Portland guy who doesn't even have an arena yet? Have the option to potentially move into Seattle. Why wouldn't some of the other franchises potentially have the option to move there? And that's like conspiracy bill wonders like,

• 1:13:41Bill Simmons?

  do you play this expansion thing down the road? Because ultimately you know it's not going to work. And now you're going to relocate a franchise into Seattle. And you want to at least cover your tracks and be like, well, we tried, we tried to do expansion, we couldn't get it passed. So we want to fix this in Seattle and now you move a team.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Is there not a case for Portland wanting Seattle? Because A, it's a great natural built in rivalry that has a history to it already. And B, we're not all alone on an island in the Pacific Northwest. We actually have a one short flight road trip per, you know, that we do every year a couple of times.

• 1:14:17Bill Simmons?

  Maybe, I don't know. I, I, I think I would feel better just being the only NBA team in the Pacific Northwest. But I think for the league, it's, I mean, obviously it'd be better to have a team in Portland, teams in Portland and Seattle.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  And for Minnesota, don't you, don't you, isn't there a part of you that's like, well, are we the one that gets to move to the east? Like, does that, does that factor in at all for you?

• 1:14:38Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I don't know how they decided on, I know they have, they have all these committees, right? They have expansion committee, they have TV committee, they have all these different things. So the expansion committee obviously decided Seattle and then Vegas are the two best options. I still don't know how they ended up with Vegas. I think there's some other options. I've talked about this on the pod before, but it's interesting. One, apparently in the board of governors meeting, one of the loudest guys in the room against this with Chisholm, the guy that just bought the Celtics. Cause he just got into the league, he's not in any of the committees. And I think there was a few people in that room, and it's more than just the owners. Everybody brings like their one or two people with them.

• 1:15:19Bill Simmons?

  There are a few people in the room like, I don't get it. Why are we doing this? I don't, I'm not voting for this. And I think it was a little more contentious than. Adam thought it was gonna be, which then makes sense why they leaked that story in the Monday morning to try to set the template for it. So, listen, all I'm saying is, uh, you better know you're gonna have a team in Seattle in the next three years. Because to extend this and make it seem like it's gonna happen and then pull the rug out from under them again would be pretty fucked up.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  That, that we can agree on. Um, I mean, you even have the Seattle media at this thing to ask Adam. I mean, now there's Vegas media there too, but Vegas is like already an NBA city in a lot of ways because of summer league and all that stuff. But like, yeah, you can't do that to Seattle again.

• 1:16:04Bill Simmons?

  We'll see what happens.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  And there's also, there's also the like, I think part of the discontent was also just like, we're doing, there's just a lot of stuff going on at the same time. We have the tanking stuff, we have the Clippers stuff, we have the NBA Europe stuff, we have, it's like, what, like, why, like, this, this is a, there's a lot.

• 1:16:21Bill Simmons?

  Why are we adding this to?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  There's a lot that we already have to resolve.

• 1:16:24Bill Simmons?

  WNBA?

• 1:16:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and, and that's, I said this a week or two weeks ago, but like, to me, you can't add two more teams until you've fully figure out the tanking rules. And they, they tweeted out three terrible solutions on Friday, which I didn't like any of them, did you?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  I thought they were fine. I don't, they're, I, I don't understand, I don't think they're that difficult to understand. Like, that was the, some of the outcry was like, these are too complicated. They're not really that complicated. They're just basically like, we're gonna flatten the odds and let some of the play in teams in.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  I don't, it just, it really depends what, what you, what, what do you want to happen?

• 1:17:04Bill Simmons?

  I don't want a situation where San Antonio can go one, two, and four in three straight years again. And I'm not taking anything away from what happened with them, but I just don't think that's the right way to do it. I don't want a situation like Philly being able to do the process again.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Well, one of them had the built in, had, had some built in safeguard, at least one of the proposals had some built in safeguards where you can't pick in the top whatever. I think. And then there was one that had two years worth of record was gonna be, uh, the basis of where you pick.

• 1:17:31Bill Simmons?

  The league has real issues now. Like even you look at a team, you know, cause then on top of it, you have the player empowerment piece coming into this too, right? And you have, I don't know, like, who's, who's a team that lost somebody in the last five years? Cause the guy just didn't, Mitchell. So Mitchell just decides, I don't want to be in Utah anymore. What are you going to do if you're Utah? You're going to keep him? He's under contract for three more years, but he doesn't want to play there anymore. He wants to go somewhere else. Shit, what do we do?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Anthony Davis?

• 1:18:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, uh, De'Aaron Fox.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  It goes on and on.

• 1:18:04Bill Simmons?

  Right. So if you're Utah, you made a really good Mitchell trade. You haven't had any luck with the lottery. You're now, you've done pretty well in your picks, but you also didn't win the lottery. And then you see a team like San Antonio goes 1-2-4.

• 1:18:20Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I, I just don't think any of this is a good system. I don't think if, I think if, like if Indiana wins the lottery this year, they shouldn't then be able to win the lottery a year from now. And that's, I don't know why they haven't done little tweaks like that. Like if you're in the top three, you don't get to go back. These seem like pretty simple. I don't mind flattening the odds though. If, if they wanted to do like the odds for the worst seven teams are flattened, then it drops down to the next seven and then the four play in. I'd be fine.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 1:19:16Bill Simmons?

  Come with that. All right, last thing before we go, deep dive.

• 1:19:21Bill Simmons?

  I asked you this.

• 1:19:24Bill Simmons?

  Is this the weirdest NBA season we've ever had? Seems like a pretty bold statement.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  So it's a big question, first of all.

• 1:19:33Bill Simmons?

  Cause I was trying to think what's been weirder than everything we've seen now for five, five months and every week there's another story. We just talked about this expansion story that came out of nowhere.

• 1:19:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to list some of the things that have happened this year.

• 1:19:50Bill Simmons?

  San Antonio went from 34 wins to a title favorite. Wemby arguably became the face of the league. We argued about face of the league last summer for two months and I think Wemby has now become the guy that is the hottest ticket out of the 30 teams. Is that fair? Is there a hotter ticket than Wemby coming to town?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  He's must see.

• 1:20:11Bill Simmons?

  He's the face of the league.

• 1:20:13Bill Simmons?

  Bam had an 83 point game.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  That happened.

• 1:20:17Bill Simmons?

  The Clippers had an aspiration scandal, started out 6 and 19, traded James Harden and are now making a playoff push. And the scandal has not been resolved.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Also, also ignominiously waived Chris Paul, who then retired.

• 1:20:33Bill Simmons?

  And waived Chris Paul during his farewell season. Charlotte had the best net rating for 40 games after going 4 and 14. Kevin Durant had a burner scandal at the All-Star game and the team has not been the same since. And we've never found out whether the scandal happened or not, although I think we have our ideas. Jason Tatum blew out his Achilles in Monday, in May. Their over under was 42 wins. They've now already won 50 and he's back and he had 32 points today and that all happened in 10 months. The Lakers looked like an absolute mess and are now contenders and just went fifth in our scared team draft. Phoenix, Stephen A. Smith called Ishbyer the worst owner in the league a year ago. Now they're going to be in the playoffs. OKC became villains.

• 1:21:17Bill Simmons?

  We have 10 tanking teams that made Adam Silver snap.

• 1:21:21Bill Simmons?

  The Luca trade officially became the worst trade ever. The Wizards have Trey Young and Anthony Davis.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  That, I was gonna say, when is that coming up?

• 1:21:30Bill Simmons?

  We have a hardcore expansion plan out of nowhere. Everyone turned on Inside the NBA, a show that we all loved and considered family. And we might have 10 East teams that have 45 plus wins. So I just listed 5, 15, 17, thanks. And I don't know what I left out.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  I mean, there's, there's more. I mean.

• 1:21:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, keep going. What else? The Pistons are the one seed?

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  The entire Yanis saga from start to finish.

• 1:21:56Bill Simmons?

  Yanis.

• 1:21:59Bill Simmons?

  Is that a saga? Can we come up with another word?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Zion plays now every game? That, that, that, that, that's a weird one.

• 1:22:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're right. New Orleans being the worst team in the league and they're going to give Atlanta the number one pick. And now I think they're like the 10th team in the league, the last 20 games.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Ja Morant, last man standing in Memphis, except everyone already forgot he's even on the team. Like where, when they issued the medical update for him, like elbow, the elbow, he's just going to be out for the season. Just like these teams are giving up with these press releases. I half expect them to just like accidentally send one. That's just like Ja Morant injury to come in parentheses will be out for the season and they accidentally send it.

• 1:22:41Bill Simmons?

  Did you see that Brian Keefe, the transcript of his press conference when the reporters were asking him why he stopped playing guys? And he was just like, well, he'd reached his cap for minutes. These are like healthy 22 year old guys just who just want to play basketball.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  The Jazz are like Kyle Filipowski, you're too good. Just the first two quarters are for you. Sveema Hyaluk, you're, you're so good, you can only ever play when we're already down by 30 points. Then was like, here comes Sve off the bench. It's just absolutely laughable what's going on. There's probably more that I'm just even forgetting. You mentioned James Harden, the Hornets. The, how about the Bulls just?

• 1:23:22Bill Simmons?

  Oh yeah. The James Harden trade. We forgot about that.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  The Bulls just, sure that they exist. I don't know one, the, how is a team this storied this now this irrelevant? The Nets took five first round picks. None of them will make an all rookie team. That feels problematic.

• 1:23:38Bill Simmons?

  Is that true?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I guess that is true.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Joman, I mean, I think if Joman had been healthy the whole season, he would, he would do it. He might have a shot.

• 1:23:45Bill Simmons?

  I guess we could have thrown in Jaylen Brown being a viable MVP candidate.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:23:51Bill Simmons?

  That was like 315 run outs. One of the things I was looking at was the over unders before the year. And how many teams outperformed or underperformed their over under by like 10 or more wins or losses? And it was more than you'd think.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Donovan Klingon looks more and more like Gunther every, every day.

• 1:24:11Bill Simmons?

  That's a good one. Should he just start dressing like Gunther?

• 1:24:16Bill Simmons?

  He just come out like that for games?

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  What's a Kings one? There's gotta be a Kings.

• 1:24:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Kings were, the Kings getting mad at you because you called them a train wreck before the season and then it was five times worse.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  I called them the Hindenburg.

• 1:24:30Bill Simmons?

  And they took that personally. And guess what? It was even worse.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Scottie Pippen doing that, was that a real thing or was that AI? Did you see the Scottie Pippen, Mr. Pibb?

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  The soda. Yeah. Voice of Van Lathan in that.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. That's, that's, just throw that on the list. He's still mad about the last dance five years later.

• 1:24:49Bill Simmons?

  So, all right. So we've established this was a super weird season. We're not even probably done. I went back over history because I'm weird and I tried to figure out there had been a weirder season. And there were three candidates and I'll just go through them quickly. You'll remember them pretty fast. 1995, which had the goofy three point line. It had Michael Jordan returning from baseball to just start playing basketball again in mid-March out of nowhere. Houston won the title as a, as a road team in every series. It never had home court advantage in one series, won the title.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Nick Anderson missed four free throws in a row.

• 1:25:28Bill Simmons?

  We had the Nick Anderson game and his career was never the same. We had Dave and Robinson win the MVP and then Hakeem had vengeance on him in the playoffs and destroyed him.

• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  We had Dennis Rodman taking his shoes off during the Spurs series.

• 1:25:43Bill Simmons?

  We had, and completely having a breakdown, we had the Pat Riley Knicks Miami thing. Wasn't that the year it fell apart? 95? I think so.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  I think, I think it might be the next, no, it's 95. I can't remember.

• 1:25:56Bill Simmons?

  And that was also the Patrick Ewing finger roll missed.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  And eight, eight points, nine seconds is that same series.

• 1:26:03Bill Simmons?

  And we had Indy, Orlando, Eastern Conference Finals, um, which was the best series ever that nobody's ever talked about again. You could watch five games from that series and you'd be wild. They entertained. They wouldn't even show it in Harvard.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  The round before when the Magic beat the Bulls is what the all time, like what's happening image of the Magic carrying Horace Grant, like, like a, like a high school kid who just made the game winning field goal in the homecoming game off, carrying them off the court.

• 1:26:30Bill Simmons?

  That's another thing about 95. Michael Jordan came up short in a playoff series. But it wasn't really Michael Jordan and he got his vengeance next year. Anyway, that's one candidate.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  And he wore number 45.

• 1:26:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he wore the wrong number. 2004 is our next candidate.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:46Bill Simmons?

  Pistons win the title.

• 1:26:49Bill Simmons?

  They beat the Lakers. The Kobe trial happened that year, which was just surreal and bizarre and kinda terrible. We had that crazy Pistons Pacers series where it'd be like three minutes left in the fourth quarter. Indiana winning 59 to 58. Remember, the scores were like, you couldn't even believe this was basketball. That series, single-handedly led to some of the rule changes that have now kept happening for 20 years. We had Minnesota having their one good year ever with KG and

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:27:20Bill Simmons?

  all that stuff. We had your guy, Peja Stojakovic. Stojakovic?

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  There you go. The second one. It's always itch.

• 1:27:27Bill Simmons?

  Stojakovic.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  It's always itch.

• 1:27:28Bill Simmons?

  Always itch. Fourth MVP that year.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  His son is playing pretty well for the Illinois Fighting Balkans.

• 1:27:37Bill Simmons?

  We had Dirk and Nash flaming out. We had the Jail Blazers officially falling apart, trading Rasheed Wallace, who played one game for Atlanta and got traded again to the Pistons. We had LeBron's first year. We had the crazy 0.4 Derek Fisher shot.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:27:51Bill Simmons?

  We, how many teams were over 99 points a game that year?

• 1:27:56Bill Simmons?

  99?

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Two.

• 1:27:58Bill Simmons?

  Two. And we had the 04 Olympics collapse with our backcourt of Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis, among the many things in 04. So that, I would say that was a pretty weird year.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  It's a good one.

• 1:28:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, and then we had Shaq getting traded right after the year to Miami. All right, here's our winner. 1978.

• 1:28:19Bill Simmons?

  Which featured the Kermit Washington punch of Rudy Tomjanovic, the, probably the worst moment of the last 50 years.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  I just, before you, I, I wish FanDuel would have offered me odds on

• 1:28:30Bill Simmons?

  On who would have won this?

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  which year Bill would pick, because I would have gone heavy on 1977, 78. I just, it's a great

• 1:28:36Bill Simmons?

  It's the weirdest one. Uh, Kareem punched Kent Benson and broke his hand and missed 20 games. Bill Walton got injured when the Blazers were, I think, 55 and 10 or something and really never came back. We had the Sonics go 5 and 17. Fire their coach. And make game seven in the NBA finals in the same year with Lenny Wilkins. They lost to a 44 win Bullets team. We had a 44 and 38 Bullets team win the title. This was two years after the ABA merger. We had the Braves trying to move and they finally did. We had the Celtics falling apart officially. We had the weirdest MVP vote ever that nobody still knows who should have won the MVP. We had Doc kind of choke in a playoff series, Doc Julius Irving against Washington.

• 1:29:20Bill Simmons?

  And the fans kind of turned on, it was like, hey, Doc, I thought you were going to be better than this. That happened. And we only had three 50 win teams, even though it was an 82 game season. Only one team won more than 55 games.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  It's a great, it's a great random year.

• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  Still think that might be the weirdest, but this one's getting close. The Bam 83 point game, I think removed the ceiling for this season.

• 1:29:47Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. So what's your take? Which one out of those four, what was the one that jumped out to you?

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  95 is a pretty fun year. I might be partial to that one because that's, I'm 17 in that year. And so it's just right in the heart of you're becoming the sports fan that you're going to be. I'm right in Knicks country. So I'm living

• 1:30:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  The mid 90s Knicks thing. All my friends are going crazy about that. That was the Jordan thing.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  I mean, people who were not alive and or engaged in sports then just don't have any idea how wild it was that one morning we woke up at six in the morning and the radio on the way to, on the way to practice before school was like, Michael Jordan's retiring from basketball. There's like, it was the craziest thing that had ever happened. And then he played baseball and then he came back and he had a double nickel and had to pass to Bill Wennington and all that stuff. That was

• 1:30:43Bill Simmons?

  When you, when you talked about knowing, hearing the news that he retired, that was one thing. Hearing the news that he was coming back, I still think might be the single most exciting news announcement. Cause we didn't have HoopSight back then. We didn't have like social media and rumors and whatever. It was just all of a sudden there were rumors he was practicing with them and everybody, it was kind of word of mouth. Maybe you had a sports radio station in your hometown. Maybe you knew a guy who knew a guy. It was like, Jordan supposedly he practiced with the Bull. And then all of a sudden he was back and we were like, This is amazing. Michael Jordan is back. I'd given up on this. And that became the most fun two months out of nowhere. This weird season. It was great.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  I'm kind of.

• 1:31:29Bill Simmons?

  So you say 95.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  I'm just, I'm just a little, I'm a little bit, but by the way, I, I'm, you know what? I'm just thrilled that you included in your 1995, uh, description. The, the three seasons they moved the three point line in are like a wild three seasons. If you go on basketball reference and search, like the best three point seasons of all time, percentage wise, a bundle of them from like Steve Kerr and Glenn Rice are in those three years. And people like, don't, people just list like, oh, Steve Kerr had the greatest single season ever. Glenn Rice had the great, and they don't even mention that the three point line was like a two feet closer for his three year winner. It was like a massive thing. Or whatever it was. I can't remember exactly how, how much closer.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  Steve Kerr shot 52.4% from three.

• 1:32:18Bill Simmons?

  And that left strength was right behind him at 51.4.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  It's such a weird thing that they just did this for three years and we're like, no, not good. Just move it back.

• 1:32:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't even really remember the reasons. That I, I don't know whether they thought the paint was getting too clogged or something. And I, it didn't make sense as it was happening and it was kind of awful, but you really stayed in that 95, that Magic Pacers. Series, you really feel the three point line in that game. Cause for Reggie Miller, it was 21 footers. You know, so you have to chase them everywhere. All right. So we think. I, I'm going to go with 78. I think, I gotta be honest. I think.

• 1:33:02Bill Simmons?

  I think 26 is really close. We're like two more weird things away now.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  But we, what if, what if the playoffs is all chalk? What if we get at the end of this and it's like Oklahoma City and San Antonio and just like crazy seven game bloodbath in the Western Conference Finals. And then the winner beats the Celtics or something in the finals. And it just ends up being chalky in the playoffs. Does that, does that take away from the weirdness factor at all?

• 1:33:26Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'm going to flip it back on you.

• 1:33:29Bill Simmons?

  You've watched this whole season. Is there any chance the playoffs are going to be normal?

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  I think there's no chance. There's no chance we're getting a normal playoffs.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Even if we end up at a normal destination, the journey is going to be like we drove off the road and the car went into the pond like in the office when the GPS just directs Michael Scott into the lake. It's like, it's gonna be, it's gonna be crazy.

• 1:33:53Bill Simmons?

  Even like these plans, like Charlotte just not making the playoffs would be insane to me. They've had the number one net rating for half the year and there's really a path now for them not to make the playoffs.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Did you mention that the Hawks just went 14 and 1? Like the actual 2026 Atlanta Hawks? Was that even in the weirdness description? Like they, they didn't just go on like a six game winning streak. They went 14 and 1 in a 15 game span.

• 1:34:20Bill Simmons?

  It honestly should have been. Yeah. I mean, well, there's one, two, seven games left. I was gonna say if, if the season was like 90 games, I feel like they could catch Cleveland. They could just keep going. Yeah. And then the Lakers thing on top of it. Like if you're talking about ways the playoffs could get weird, there could clearly be a 1-8 or a 2-7 upset. I, I'm like, if, if I gave you odds, yes, there'll be a 1-8, 2-7 upset versus no, there won't.

• 1:34:52Bill Simmons?

  Probably like, I don't even know what the odds would be, but I think that's almost like a 50-50 bet for me.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm still would go no. I mean, who, who is, who is your upset threat? Charlotte?

• 1:35:03Bill Simmons?

  I would say Detroit.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  They gotta get in. Right. But I'm saying like, who, but who's gonna beat Detroit?

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  I think Boston would be a possible upset too. At two. I'm prepared for, that, that's the thing. I'm prepared for anything. Who knows?

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  But who's beating, Miami's not beating any of those teams. Orlando's not. Philadelphia.

• 1:35:21Bill Simmons?

  What if Philly's the seven seed?

• 1:35:25Bill Simmons?

  You're right. The odds, you're right. No, the odds are we won't get a 2-7 or a 1-8 upset, but it's way more in play than it's ever been.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Philly, I just, I just need, I need my, I just need time. I can't.

• 1:35:38Bill Simmons?

  No, this is what I said to Raheem. Raheem was all excited about their future odds. And I was like, look, Embiid would have to play seven times in two weeks, and I don't think he can do it.

• 1:35:48Bill Simmons?

  Right? Just fundamentally, that's probably not happening. But did you see Paul George yesterday?

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:35:55Bill Simmons?

  He looked great.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  They're, and they're already doing the, the spin, like, you know, maybe this is a blessing in disguise that he missed 25 games because of a banned substance and we plummeted down the standings because into the play-in because now he's fresh.

• 1:36:08Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Unbelievable.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  Tyrese Maxey, Tyrese Maxey is like, this is cool. I just had to play 40 minutes, like every single game until I got hurt.

• 1:36:16Bill Simmons?

  I finally got hurt because I was on a record pace for guards playing, uh, playing minutes. Yeah, uh, I would not want to see them in the 2-7. There's a bunch of teams I'd rather see. I also like Charlotte as a 1-8 is not ideal. I just, this is why, this is one of my favorite ideas that I just wish they would adopt. 1-8, I think you get five home games.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:36:41Bill Simmons?

  Who's against this?

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  The teams that would get less revenue for their home playoff games.

• 1:36:46Bill Simmons?

  2-2-3.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  The one seed should be worth something.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Look, if you can't, if you can't, and I actually went through this. I had a meeting with some league officials about a bunch of different things.

• 1:36:57Bill Simmons?

  Oh, look how fancy you are.

• 1:36:58Speaker 01

  And I asked about, I asked about like, why can't, why can't we just let the one seed pick its opponent out of the play-in? And so it's logistics and arena dates. And if you let that happen, then you don't know any of the matchups. All right. Those seem to be intractable problems. We need to set the matchups and the TV schedule. Um, then give me, then give me something. If I've slogged through this 82 game, you know, journey, and I'm the number one team, like I gotta get something. I don't, I don't, I, what I shouldn't get is like, oh, fuck, the Hornets are eight and I gotta deal with this in the first round?

• 1:37:31Bill Simmons?

  And I might be down 3-2 going into a game six with Eric Collins losing his mind.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Then again, if you can't beat the Hornets, I guess you don't deserve to win the championship. 2-7 Boston Philly. Come on, Boston Philly is always such a great time. Great rivalry, Amtrak corridor, a lot of history. That's a great time.

• 1:37:49Bill Simmons?

  I just think with the three point shooting and the variance of these games, I'm scared every series, no matter who I'm playing at this point.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Except Orlando.

• 1:37:57Bill Simmons?

  Except Orlando, who gave up 31 straight points.

• 1:38:01Bill Simmons?

  And by the time people listen to this, might have a new coach. Who knows? It could be, here's our new coach, Penny Hardaway, out of nowhere. All right. Anything else before we go?

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  I can't even remember what else we're supposed to talk about. I'm good.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  How you feeling about the Mets? Oh, I know what I want to talk to you about really quick.

• 1:38:18Bill Simmons?

  ABS.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  ABS.

• 1:38:21Bill Simmons?

  Do you watch any baseball this weekend?

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I watched the Mets.

• 1:38:26Bill Simmons?

  The, the challenge. It's called ABS.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that, yeah. It's so fast. It's like this, Beau Bichette did a bad one today. And I thought he was actually going to be right. He tapped it and it was like, nope, wrong Beau Bichette. I love it.

• 1:38:38Bill Simmons?

  Most exciting ad we've, I think we've ever had from it. Cause first of all, it was half of my text threads all weekend. And I watched every Red Sox game and the Red Sox fucked up their two ABSs early in the second game.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  You get two, right? That's it?

• 1:38:52Bill Simmons?

  Fucked them up early. We go into the later parts of the game. We have the worst umpire of all time behind the plate. And, uh, he just keeps messing up, but we have no more challenges left. And it was all my texts for like three hours.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  So the Mets.

• 1:39:06Bill Simmons?

  Just like, we're in hell.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  The season opener, their very first ABS of the season flipped, it was a three, two count, flipped a walk to a strikeout. It was called a ball, the Mets challenged it and it became a strikeout. That's like, I was like, I was like, great, great times. That was awesome.

• 1:39:21Bill Simmons?

  We had the opposite. We get the inning ending strikeout, guy does this, reversed. It's like, oh my God. You know, next pitch, same thing, reversed again. Now it's like, oh my God, we're going to lose. And then he got a strikeout, but it was like, it was this added drama. I wasn't expecting.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  I love that the batters can just do it without asking anybody. Just like, I fucked that. I'm just hitting my own head and like, oh, I'm sorry. I screwed the whole team. By the way, I, you would be, you're the perfect guy to ask about this. Here are some things that happened in the first Met, the Mets home opener. I don't know if you saw any of this.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  The singer of the national anthem plays, this is a real thing, plays George Washington currently in Hamilton. He is a Tony Award winning actor, playing the first president of the United States in Hamilton. Forgot the words to the national anthem in the, in the middle of singing at the home opener.

• 1:40:17Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  And just like, just put together two verses that don't go together. Then later in the game, the Mets won the game, but later in the game.

• 1:40:25Bill Simmons?

  They did the Frank Trebin?

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  He's just saying, he, there was like a pause where it's like, he's been silent for two, like a beat too long. And then the wrong lyrics came that didn't match the lyrics that came, there were actual lyrics from the Star Spangled Banner, but they were just not the ones that he was supposed to say at that moment. And then later in the game in right field, two birds crashed into each other and one of them died and Carson Benj had to like get a towel and pick up the bird and like walk it off the field.

• 1:40:55Bill Simmons?

  They just like, would they crash going for a fly ball?

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  I did not see a video of the birds colliding, but it was not a Randy Johnson, Dave Winfield situation where like someone threw a ball and the birds like apparently just head on.

• 1:41:08Bill Simmons?

  So is that a good sign or a bad sign?

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  This is what I'm saying. They won the game. The anthem thing is kind of funny and I just don't know what to make of any of it.

• 1:41:16Bill Simmons?

  It was a great weekend for sports and I was sick for a little bit of it. And it was just an embarrassment of riches to be able to bounce around and watch all kinds of stuff. The ABS thing.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Sox are one and two or two and one? Where are we?

• 1:41:28Bill Simmons?

  One and two, two, two, uh, close losses and, uh, on a 25 man roster, they have five holes already. So feeling good.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:41:36Bill Simmons?

  Feeling good. Thought they were going to be a little more solid. Did you see Project Hail Mary yet?

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  No, but, uh, apparently the directors are massive Clippers fans. Um, and so I kind, I kind of want to watch it, but is it, have you seen it? I mean, I love Gosling. I'll watch Gosling.

• 1:41:50Bill Simmons?

  Can't wait to see it. Can't wait to see it. Have you seen Eddie and the Cruisers?

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 1:41:55Bill Simmons?

  That's going to be the rewatchables after we do, uh, LA Confidential tomorrow. The next one after is Eddie and the Cruisers because we've been pushing for it to come back.

• 1:42:06Bill Simmons?

  On streaming for five years, it finally came back. It's all over the place. And after CR month, we felt like we'd earned like it's the end of the dinner. When you give the chocolates to your customers. This is going to be the chocolates.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Well, I was gonna say LA Confidential is so heavy. Like Russell Crowe's performance by itself stresses me out. So when he breaks the chair, I'm so stressed out the entire time that I need, I need to like have a cigarette after it.

• 1:42:31Bill Simmons?

  New, uh, new Chris Ryan character in the LA Confidential rewatchable.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:37Bill Simmons?

  It's Shom Sharania as the LA Confidential reporter from Hush Hush Magazine. He, I didn't know if he pulled off. It was a 9.9 degree of difficulty and he nailed it. So, so that's coming. We have that ends a love. So anyway, LA Confidential, that's coming. Thanks to State Farm for, for helping us out with this little live stream on Netflix. Zach is going Tuesday morning.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. We'll see what happens in the weirdest NBA season. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahow and Chris, everybody else at The Ringer as well. Thanks to Netflix and I will be back on this feed on Tuesday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MYRESSET. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts

• 1:43:47Bill Simmons?

  or call 8778HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.