Maye Vs. Stafford, Week 18 Picks & the 21 Best 21st Century Sports Movies With Peter Schrager, Joe House, and Sean Fennessey

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Peter Schrager and Joe House to talk about the NFL MVP race before making their Ringer 107 picks (3:06). Then, Sean Fennessey joins the pod to discuss Bill’s 21 best sports movies of the 21st century (01:22:47). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Peter Schrager, Joe House, and Sean Fennessey Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 0:27Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a rewatchables on Monday. It was my 50 most rewatchable movies of the 21st century. It was my list. There were a lot of caveats to it, including they were just movies I'd seen the most times because of family, wife, because I liked having just a movie on in the background as I was working, whatever it was. It was my most rewatchable movies. Needless to say, people had some opinions on it, but I loved it. Anyway, you can check that out on the rewatchables on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever you get your pods. We have another episode coming. I think we have two next week. Stay tuned for two. I think we're gonna do a mailbag episode on Monday and

• 1:11Bill Simmons?

  then a movie episode on Wednesday. So be ready for that. Coming up on this podcast, we're gonna do Week 18 picks, Joe House, Peter Schrager. We're gonna talk about the MVP and a whole bunch of NFL stuff heading into the long weekend because I think most people have Friday off. And then, special segment, just recorded today with Sean Fantasy, my 21 best sports movies of the 21st century. This was not a me personally, these are the movies I genuinely feel like are the 21 best movies, sports movies of the 21st century. As you know, I love sports movies, care about them, have been writing about them my entire

• 1:54Bill Simmons?

  career back when I used to write, and have a lot of thoughts. So Sean helped me do, he helped me basically react off the top 21 and then came up with a key save for the list. So stay tuned for that. Anyway, this is a very fun podcast. Hope you had a great New Year's Eve. I did as well. I think, I don't know if my wife has showered yet. She's in rough shape. Shout out to her for surviving last night. Anyway. Pearl Jam's coming up in a second. We're going to take a break and then Peter Schreger and Joe House. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live. They have your way. Go check out your way. You can build the bet that fits your play your way. Plus, don't miss out on

• 2:37Bill Simmons?

  the NFL playoffs, one of my favorite times of the year all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/BS to get started. Get ready for the playoffs. Let's go. Must be 21 plus, present in select states, 18 plus in DC, Kentucky and Wyoming. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 3:28Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're recording late New Year's Day afternoon. There's probably some college football blowout happening right now. We apologize. We can't comment on that. Joe House is here as always, trying to figure out our week 18 picks, some other stuff. Peter Schrager demanded to join us. He's in Tampa Bay in a hotel room. You just, he wanted to be on. Explain why. Why did you have the eye of the tiger?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  We had such a good experience two weeks ago, but the pang in my stomach and in my heart was no Joe House. And I said it there when we were doing the pod after Rams Seahawks, no Joe House. Well, we go on, we have a great pod. Maybe my favorite pod with you that we've ever done. And just about every text I got was, it was good, but no Joe House. So this week with MVP voting being done midnight on Sunday and Coach of the Year voting and a full slate and me being in lovely Tampa for the Panthers Buccaneers, I'll be the sideline reporter. I begged you, can I get more airtime? And you were so kind to open up the door just a sliver.

• 4:31Bill Simmons?

  I was available. Yeah. So you don't have an MVP vote?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I recused myself.

• 4:38Bill Simmons?

  You did. Why'd you do that?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Did you? Do you still have one for NBA?

• 4:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I love having one. Zach got rid of his and I, and I call him a wuss about it every year.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  It became too.

• 4:48Bill Simmons?

  I love, I love the responsibility. It's great.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  It became too annoying. Like I had a Hall of Fame, I was a Hall of Fame alternate voter and I would get, I would get from like family members of, and like, it was just a lot. The MVP thing, once, once I came over to NFL Network, I was like, huh, you know, it's just, my ego satiated. I don't, I don't, I didn't need to do it. So now I could talk freely. I could throw out any hot take and no one's accusing me of bias or anything.

• 5:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, House, you don't have a vote. I don't have a vote.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  I think it's wise. It's probably for the best that I don't have a vote.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  But it's the same thing as the NBA. I mean, it's like, and I'm not knocking any of the voters, but people think this is some, you know, it, it's not an algorithm. It's not, it's not like based on stats. It's literally, guys like me and guys like Kyle Brandt and,

• 5:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Uh, I think like Diana has one, like it's not, it, and it's really a narrative based thing where there's, everyone puts work into it, but it's not like this is such a science. They could go any way, man.

• 5:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think, House, I think you would agree with this. It feels like the NBA MVP matters more. I think to the history of the sport, how we remember things, how we remember seasons.

• 6:01Bill Simmons?

  NFL, maybe, maybe it's just a blind spot for me, but Brady has a bunch of them. Like I, I couldn't tell you whether he has five, six, eight.

• 6:11Bill Simmons?

  Three, that's it?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I think.

• 6:12Bill Simmons?

  Manning has a bunch. Rogers has a bunch. Uh, it's just a little different. Whereas like an NBA, I know like, oh, Kobe had his MVP season was oh eight. Shacks was, do you feel the same way, House?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  I understand the point that you're making, but I think it's still pretty important in the NFL. It does.

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  I, I agree. I think it is important. I just, but from the history standpoint, do you feel like it matters in the same way?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  I kind of do.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  I absolutely do.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  It still tells us.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  I'll admit I'm wrong then.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  It tells us a lot.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  I will tell you this, you could define the season and you can remember the year.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  For example, Monday, I was in Atlanta for Rams versus Falcons and I head over to the Rams hotel in the morning just to say what's up to those guys and Matt Ryan's there and my son's with me, he's nine years old and what do I identify Matt Ryan as? Not the guy who lost the Super Bowl, not the guy. That's fair. That's a former MVP.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  MVP, Matt Ryan, that's right.

• 7:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's fair. I'm an NBA hole. I guess it's just a blind spot for me because you think like with Lamar, he's got his too, right? And it's a big part of the case and there's some, I don't even think it's like rampant speculation at this point. It seems like there's some serious Lamar Raven stuff. I thought that piece in the Baltimore Sun last week was pretty illuminating and had a lot of breadcrumbs coming from the Ravens organization side. But you think like, just saying Lamar Jackson's available versus two time MVP Lamar Jackson is available. It does feel like it has more weight. Did you believe that story? Do you believe there's real problems there, Shreks?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Mike Preston's been, you know, working in Baltimore for 30 years and is a respected columnist. That was the first negative piece on Lamar that we've gotten since Lamar has gotten there, especially from the Baltimore media. So I think everyone's pointing the finger at everyone, but I believe that organization is fully behind Lamar Jackson as their quarterback.

• 8:05Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. So you don't think he's available this spring?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  I do not.

• 8:09Bill Simmons?

  What do you think, House?

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Why would he be available? How can you do any better than Lamar fucking Jackson? Like, what are we talking about? There's like, you know, eight good quarterbacks in the entire NFL and four that are MVP level and he's one of them. Like, the whole thing is nonsense to me. It seems incredible. Did a leg, did his leg fall off in the meantime?

• 8:33Bill Simmons?

  There is some running QB stuff that I think if you look at the history of this, we have, I feel that, by the way, the same way about Victor Wembeyama and tall basketball players. There's some stuff with the history of the, when you think about running QBs, like the hits that they just take, the wear and tear of.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  So you're saying like a Ralph Sampson, you know, like there's a similar comparison.

• 8:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, man, like there's Kareem is the most successful tall guy we've ever had. But there's been a lot of tall guys who their careers were ended up short. It's just, there's a, you know, it's, it's like a very tall building that you have to worry about.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  You can do this with running quarterbacks in the NFL. You can talk about how Michael, Michael Vick eventually went off a cliff. You can talk about Dante Culpepper, like famously like falling off a cliff. The question will be whether Lamar can be a pocket passer.

• 9:21Bill Simmons?

  I would say Cam Newton. I'm just talking about the accumulation of hits, which I think for quarterbacks, running backs, tight ends, but you could say that would be the case for sacks too, right, Trey?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Bill Simmons?

  If somebody took a bunch of big sacks. Stafford's an outlier in this respect. I don't understand why he's, all the hits he took in the Lions, the fact that he's still kicking is pretty crazy.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then there's David Carr and there's, you know, those guys that got the shit kicked out of them early, Jim Plunkett.

• 9:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  It eventually takes, takes its toll. One more thing on the MVP, I don't know if the NBA is like this, but you have to fill out a ballot, one to five, and you rank them. And your first place is five points, your second place is three points, your third place, whatever, so it goes down. So even if a guy gets a lot of first place votes, if there's a guy who's just swept all the second place votes, that guy might be the MVP, which makes it interesting because first team all pro could be very different than MVP, which is a head scratcher in itself, same voters.

• 10:21Bill Simmons?

  This has happened a couple of times in the NBA, most famously with Charles Barkley, I think in 1990, where he had the most first place votes, but I think he finished third.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Who got it, Magic?

• 10:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Magic got it because he had the totality of the votes, I think. But it was same thing where he just, he just was on more of the ballots. I don't mind it. Um, so it's, it's relatively the same though, the way they count it. House, you have no dog in this race. Drake May, after the Matthew Stafford, uh, falling apart game on Monday night, Drake May was minus 700 on Fanduel at one point. Now he's minus 340 and he's going to win the MVP unless they lose to Miami. I think is how this plays out. Do you think Drake May is MVP house?

• 11:05Speaker 02

  I, I disagree with you. I, I don't think he's going to win the, the MVP. I don't think it's a fait accompli. I think it's going to be razor thin. And I do want to take advantage of this moment that we have with Shreigs to give us, let's illuminate exactly what we're talking about here. He hinted at it a tiny bit there. It is voters. It's mostly media folks, right Pete?

• 11:27Bill Simmons?

  Yep. Mostly media folks. You just call him Pete? Nobody's ever called him Pete. He's not a Pete.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  We're boys. We're boys. We, I, I feel like I can go a lot of way with Shreger here.

• 11:38Bill Simmons?

  Pete Sampras, Pete Schrager?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  We're sitting here together. It's a great, happy new year.

• 11:44Bill Simmons?

  Usually you do like PS or you have like some sort of like, yeah, anyway, go ahead.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  But let's shed some light on this, uh, because I do think that the, the, the voting constituency is important to, I mean, in the first place, the betting odds, this market is insane to me. The idea that, that, you know, the implied probability of Drake May at minus 340 is like, you know, well north of, of 80% and Matthew Stafford, you know, in the whatever 15, I don't think it's tho- tho- those probabilities line up in any way, shape or form because you said this your own self. It's a narrative kind of vote. Who has, Bill Simmons just made the case, who's taken more hits in his career and, and still playing at an absolute near MVP low?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Matthew Stafford. This is, if this is going to be an award where we recognize in a year where nobody's really distinguished themselves, a career achievement, then that's Matthew Stafford. Cause Drake May is going to have his turn. He's going to have his chances down the road. And when you do the strength of schedule stuff and you. You see it all over the Twitter machine. When you do that, even when you put common opponents, performance versus common opponents. It's a lot closer.

• 12:59Bill Simmons?

  Drake may beat the Falcons and Matthew Stafford didn't. We talked about stuff like that.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  You mean the missed extra point that the Falcons, the buffoonery. Adams of Falcons, the worst special teams in all of football. Yes, yes, that is, that is one difference.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  I, I never remember strength of schedule being this important to an MVP race before. Cause there's nothing else you can ding Drake May on other than, oh, you haven't played enough people. It's not his fault. He's put, first of all, how many actual good defenses are there, Shreigs?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Well, you've got Denver.

• 13:26Bill Simmons?

  If you're gonna be like, oh, he's skipped defenses.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  And Seattle, those are your three.

• 13:30Bill Simmons?

  And maybe Philly if Philly's healthy, right?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:32Bill Simmons?

  So he hasn't played those four teams. But other than that, like if he played San Francisco, guess what? Drake May would have put up awesome stats against San Francisco. If he had played, pick, pick all the playoff teams. There's a bunch of them that he would have had really good stats on. You go through the advanced metrics. It's so convincing for May. It's almost like you have to look twice. Cause the other piece that everybody forgets, this is what I was texting you about, Shreigs. Not to sound like a Boston homer. I, I honestly think this is crazy.

• 14:02Bill Simmons?

  The, his legs.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  The rushing.

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  May has over 400 rushing yards. He's rushed for four TDs. He's rushed for 35 first downs. He's kept plays alive. I sent you all these EPA stats where Pats have the number one offense by EPA. May's at the top in every category or in the top three in EPA. And then you look at like protection and the Rams are top three. The Pats offensive line's like 26. May's had to scramble like on 10% of his plays. Stafford's had to scramble like on 2%. Like May is running for his life in a lot of these games. He's threading the needle on these long bombs. He's had 12 of the greatest throws I've seen in the history of the Patriots this season.

• 14:44Bill Simmons?

  And Matthew Stafford has Puka Nakua, the best receiver in the league, who catches five yard passes and runs for 60. He's had Devante Adams for most of the season. He's a much better offensive line. He plays indoors. He has Sean McVay. Like, what are we talking about? So if you switch these two guys, if you switch them on different teams, are you telling me Drake May would have worse stats than Matthew Stafford? Like, are people really think this?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  So House nailed it when he first said the thing about the betting odds and the lines and the odds makers. Throw that shit out the window. They have no insight on this, none. They can speculate, but I will tell you this. Monday night, I'm in Atlanta and I'm doing the rounds, whatever. I'm kissing babies, doing my thing. And some fan comes up to me and is like, Shreigs, Matthew Stafford minus 450 for the MVP. This is before the game was, and he goes, he goes, how much should I put on it? I go, ah, yeah, like, whatever, I move on. At halftime, after three interceptions and being down 21-0, he was second in the odds to Drake May, who is now the favorite. That's how turbulent this is.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Now, I would also add-

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because Matthew Stafford sucked in the game.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  He was terrible. And that was in-

• 15:58Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, not a small game.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it to you because of the narrative part. So why I mentioned that thing with narrative. We're all journalists, or it's Boomer Esiason, Troy Aikman. It's, it's people in media who are voting on this thing. We love a story. And as much as you're giving the EPA numbers and you're saying strength of schedule shouldn't matter, it never has, we're looking for a story. So for Stafford, two primetime games in a row, his team lost. In a game where it was a easy slam dunk, go into Atlanta, his home, you know, he's got all these friends from UGA, pretty comfortable setting, indoors, 21-0 at the half, looked awful. Offensive line was a nightmare, but he got sacked a bunch of times through the three picks.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  The voters right there are like, oh, it doesn't feel right in a big spot to say he's the most valuable player. Now, Drake May has only played really two big games.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And he won one of them on Sunday night before anyone was even like attuned to any of this stuff. And then when they're up 21-0 in a game that everyone's watching, no fault to his own, he dropped the ball. They have nothing to gain, the two of them, the next two weeks, so the next week. So Africa throw for 6,000 yards against the Cardinals.

• 17:15Bill Simmons?

  The Pats have something to gain this week because the Miami game is sneaky and they gotta lock down the two seed.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yes, they have the two seed, but the one seed with Trey Lance starting is probably gonna go to Denver. So I don't think they have anything more that Drake May can do. And the stats last week against Brady Cook and the Jets, they look great on paper, but the voters aren't like blown away. The guy that I'm gonna insert right here, because it's not a two horse race, and on FanDuel or DraftKings or one of them, it was 500 to 1 last week, is the running back out of San Francisco, Christian McCaffrey, who in two back-to-back primetime games has been unbelievable.

• 17:48Bill Simmons?

  He's 500 to 1 on FanDuel.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  500 to 1. So I'm telling you now, don't believe any, if he against that defense in Seattle, in a third straight primetime game, goes for like 200 yards, has two touchdowns.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna lose House. House is gonna leave the pod so he can go bet on this.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  No, I have it up right now. I have another screen.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Remember this, narrative, narrative. Everyone in America is gonna be watching that Seattle, San Francisco game. Nobody in America is watching Arizona Rams. The last taste they have in their mouth, whether you think it's fair or not, is a three interception game against the Falcons. And for poor Drake May, the schedule thing matters in that it's kinda like, yeah, that's been the story all season, but he didn't really do any slam dunk stuff to us in the big spots. In the one big spot, they go up a 21-point lead. I don't have a vote.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  I have a massive counter to everything Shrek said, but I need House's take on everything Shrek said first.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  I agree with everything that he just said. I do think.

• 18:42Bill Simmons?

  Fuck you, House.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  I don't have a rebuttal. Like, the problem for Drake May is, they just played one of the easiest schedules in the last 30 years. Like, they did.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  How's that his fault?

• 18:53Speaker 02

  It's not. It's not about fault. It's a narrative award. That's all.

• 18:58Bill Simmons?

  You guys are jerks. Alright.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  If you pumped it into an algorithm and all this stuff, you might say it's a no-brainer, but you could also say it's a no- Brainer for Stafford. The fact of the matter is there is a small window for a door number three and we haven't given this award to a running back since 2012. And if you're comparing Saquon to McCaffrey, last year Saquon, Saquon's season was better, but Lamar and Josh Allen had historic seasons. Do you think Drake May, I know it's been a great story. Do you think it's an all time historic season from a quarterback?

• 19:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, I've watched every snap of Drake May's career. His team was terrible last year.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  It couldn't have been worse. It couldn't have been worse coached. The offensive line was bad. He had no weapons at all. He dragged them to four and 13. I don't know how they won four games. Going to this season, look at the receivers and the weapons he has compared to the Rams. Like everybody's like, well, he has Stefan Diggs. Guess who doesn't play every down? Stefan Diggs. Stefan Diggs runs, I think 22 routes a game. Because they've been, he was hurt last year. They've been really careful about how they use him. So his one weapon, the most reliable guy he has, isn't on the field, maybe 50% of the game. Nobody else he has you'd care about other than maybe Hunter Henry. Henderson was the running back

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  who didn't do anything for two months and then finally came on. Remandre felt like he was going to get waived six months, six weeks into the season. And then the offensive line has been really rough. And then he lost his left tackle.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Campbell.

• 20:33Bill Simmons?

  And he lost his right tackle. And all he's done is just carried the team and been incredible week after week. And I don't know why that doesn't matter. When you talk about narrative, Shreigs.

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  We've had this narrative with like the young QB turning into a guy.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Mahomes, Lamar. Yeah.

• 20:51Bill Simmons?

  Happened to Mahomes at 18. Lamar in 19.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Dan Marino, second year.

• 20:55Bill Simmons?

  Rogers 2011, although that team was awesome that year.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Kurt Warner, 2000 or 99.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  When we've had the, I'm now here, I'm now one of the guys that sometime has been rewarded with the MVP. But the bigger thing to me that I can't believe isn't part of this, the Rams are fucking six seed. The MVP always comes from the one seed or the two seed. We've kind of established that. Like Shield did his MVP pod before that. He did another one halfway through the year and Ringer NFL. And it's like, you have to pick the pool of candidates who will either be the one or the two seed, because that's who usually wins. So if the, if the Pats are a two seed and Stafford's a six Then what are we arguing about?

• 21:33Speaker 01

  I hear you.

• 21:34Bill Simmons?

  His schedule was tougher and he threw for more passing touchdowns because he's Pukun Nakua on his team? And Devonte Adams? If you, this is what we use for the NBA. House and I have used this forever. Switch the players. What happens? What happens if Stafford's on the Patriots? What happens? With the, with the offensive line they have without the weapons with the new offensive coordinator? Does he do as well as Drake May did? I don't think he does.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I mean, the argument could also be pushed back to you and say that last year's Patriots were awful. They also spent more money than any team did in the history of free agency this offseason.

• 22:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, finally. We didn't spend money for 20 years.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  I know, I'm not, it's just that it's not like it's the same roster. It's not barren.

• 22:15Bill Simmons?

  Like they're getting Trayvon Diggs. They didn't spend money on anything. Kraft, hey, do you have another 500,000, Bob? Nope, I don't. Sorry.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  The keg is tapped. Um, no.

• 22:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just, I just made myself a coffee, so I'm fucking flying right now.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  I see you are. I'm fired up too. I just walked off a plane.

• 22:32Bill Simmons?

  I got a lot of caffeine going through right now.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I want to ask you this. If, if indeed the McCaffrey thread, you know, sort of rises to the fore, who does that hurt more? Does it hurt Drake May's candidacy or does it hurt Stafford? Right? We have a third party candidate who's going to siphon away some votes.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  We both, none of us here think that, that McCaffrey is going to win. I don't, I don't, I mean, I can't imagine, right?

• 22:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, running backs, when was the last running back that went?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  2012, Adrian Peterson.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  It was Adrian Peterson, right?

• 23:01Bill Simmons?

  So I think that impacts, so if the Niners win, and we're going to do picks in a second, the Niners win on, on Saturday night. Saturday night, right?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, Saturday night. With everyone watching standalone game.

• 23:14Bill Simmons?

  I personally think that should flip coach of the year. Vrabel's the favorite right now.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 23:20Bill Simmons?

  Vrabel's been amazing. He took a shit team that was really even worse than four and 13 and turned them into what he turned them into this year and completely changed it. What Shanahan did with that San Francisco situation is

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. Bonkers.

• 23:36Bill Simmons?

  Like, this is where, I even have money on Vrabel, and I think if they win the one seed, I think Shanahan should win Coach of the Year. And this is like, Vrabel's had one, done one of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen of any Boston team from, from a first year guy. I'd still, like, I just can't believe the Niners are even in this. It's impossible.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  I, I had the Niners two weeks ago in Indianapolis and I had breakfast with Robert Sala at the team hotel beforehand.

• 24:06Bill Simmons?

  What a fucking name drop from Pete.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Pete, sneaky Pete.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Doing it again.

• 24:12Bill Simmons?

  For Pete's sake.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  For Pete's sake, here's a name drop.

• 24:15Bill Simmons?

  Did you sound that one at the producers yet?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  I've been trying, I've been pushing.

• 24:18Bill Simmons?

  Sneaky Pete's good. Anyway, I heard that, go ahead.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Anyway, we need, we need, we need like a sound, something from like a radio, when I do a name drop, sneaky Pete.

• 24:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  And, you know, he was like, so proud of these guys. And then I'm like, yeah, you know, no Warner, no Bosa, no Mikel Johnson, who is their, you know, their rookie. And I'm like, I don't know a single player on their defense.

• 24:40Bill Simmons?

  They have Keon White, who we gave to them for like a conditional seventh round pick. He plays every down.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Like, you go, and it's not me insulting, like Bryce Huff is their top pass rusher.

• 24:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  And that's not an insult to him. It is completely the truly no name defense. And they don't, they're not exactly the 2000 Ravens or the 76 Steelers. But when they have to, they make a stop. And they did that with the D. Winters pick six. And then, of course, last week with Caleb, where I hated the hook and ladder call because it eats up all the clock and then all of a sudden they're scrambling. But either way, that Niners team has been so ravaged by injuries that I think it has to go to Shanahan.

• 25:22Bill Simmons?

  They were on like backup defensive backs on top of all the best guys they lost. That guy, Williams was, I bet on him for Defensive Rookie of the Year before the year.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Did I say Johnson? I meant Williams, yeah, or whoever.

• 25:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, whatever. And then you have offensive line injuries. You have the quarterback switcheroo. You have some of the close games they've won. How's this, like, how much money have you lost on the Niners this year?

• 25:47Speaker 02

  I actually haven't been.

• 25:49Bill Simmons?

  You've been afraid of the Niners. Yeah, that's, yeah, you have been wary.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I haven't been jumping in there too much.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  But Bill. I, I think there might be like seven worthy contenders. It's not a two horse race in that conversation. How do you tell, how do you tell like Ben Johnson that, no, you're not in this?

• 26:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, for coach of the year. Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Liam Cohen, the Jaguars.

• 26:11Bill Simmons?

  So I, I would have Liam Cohen third right now.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  First year coach, first year offensive coordinator, first year defensive coordinator, first year.

• 26:17Bill Simmons?

  Rehabilitated a guy that we had given up on.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Rehabilitated, save, save that man's career. Save Trevor Lawrence's career.

• 26:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Mike McDonald in Seattle, if they're the one seed, after firing the offensive coordinator after one year and bringing in Sam Darnold, or like suddenly they're the ones, it's, it's, and Sean Payton has an argument too with that Russell Wilson salary cap hanging over that team and they're the one seed. It's a great year. I mean, any other year, there's usually two coaches and it's like the team that came from nowhere to win. This year, I think there's six or seven, like D'Amico Ryan's has an argument. It's a good year for it.

• 26:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, also a great year for the new coach theory house. One of our futures staples. We had Jags, Pats.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Don't tell Jets fans that.

• 27:00Bill Simmons?

  No, what was the third one? There was, and uh, Jags, Pat, Chicago. That was the premise for, I love the Pats every over. I like the Chicago overs. The Jags were the one I couldn't get behind because of Lawrence and the Lawrence that we've seen the last couple of weeks. We'll see this week. This, we'll talk about it when we get to the picks. This Jaguars Tennessee game is like pulsating as like a stay away to me. Throw it in every parlay. You feel great. Oh yeah. And the Jags money line. And then, you know, Cam Ward hits somebody for a 78 yard touchdown. Lawrence throws a pick six. It's 14 nothing. It's just something scares me. I think you made a really good case for McCaffrey.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Just because of the quarterbacks not grabbing us.

• 27:45Bill Simmons?

  Also like what he was doing in that, uh, that last game where he's clearly not a hundred percent either. He's going to be what? He's, isn't he over 400 touches house?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  400 touches.

• 27:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That's like 400 plus touches is nuts.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  A thousand receiving yards. It doesn't seem like he's going to quite get there, but.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  He's got 890.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:04Bill Simmons?

  I said, it's like what we were talking about with the Lamar thing. Like when you're up on the 400 touches for a running back, whoever.

• 28:14Bill Simmons?

  It's just not a long shelf life after that. I remember when Aaron Schatz wrote about that. He called it the curse of 370 about running backs.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 28:21Bill Simmons?

  And the running back that he wrote it about, I can't remember who it was.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Jamal Lewis.

• 28:26Bill Simmons?

  It was like Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, somebody. And he wrote the piece and the guy's career died in like a year. And it was like, we think this is the number. And so I feel the same way about these quarterbacks that take big hits. And then McCaffrey, like, he's not going to be playing football in three years. Do you think?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  We'll see if he's healthy. I mean, I'm watching Derrick Henry still run for 200 something yards.

• 28:47Bill Simmons?

  He's a physical freak. I don't. Can we compare anyone to Derrick Henry?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Jim Brown.

• 28:54Bill Simmons?

  I played Madden with my son, who now can just kick the shit out of me in Madden. I'm actually gonna have to go, it's like Rocky III. I'm gonna have to go back in the lab. Get the Eye of the Tiger back. He put Derrick Henry in a shotgun and just ran direct QB draws with Henry. With stiff harming Robert Spillane, who's slower in the video game than he is in real life somehow. And was just cackling as he kicked my ass. And I'm like, Derrick Henry is like eternal as a video game guy, much less a football guy. All right. So you have McCaffrey. What's your ranking right now? You don't have a vote, so you could tell us. One, two, three.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I'd probably go Stafford, May, McCaffrey.

• 29:31Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe the staff. What would you have, House?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Same. Same.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Stafford's numbers are astounding.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  You need both.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  He's Pukunakua and Devonte Adams. How does that not trump strength of schedule?

• 29:43Speaker 02

  BS. You need Baltimore and Carolina to win so that the Patriots have three wins over winning teams. Right now, they have one win over a winning team this season. One win.

• 29:54Bill Simmons?

  We play who's in front of us.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  I understand that. That's, you know.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  I hate the strength of schedule stuff too, Bill, but it's literally the easiest strength of schedule in the league and Stafford has the hardest strength of schedule of all the playoff teams in the league. I hate that it's becoming, it's like the 17th tiebreaker, but they're neck and neck.

• 30:13Bill Simmons?

  Here's the thing, I get confused with strength of schedule versus defenses you've played, I think are two different arguments.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 30:19Bill Simmons?

  There's only four defenses that have mattered this year. And how many of them has he actually, did the Rams play Denver? They did. No. They didn't.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  No, but they played the Texans.

• 30:29Bill Simmons?

  They played the Texans.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  They played.

• 30:31Bill Simmons?

  Not a huge production game.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  He played the Eagles.

• 30:34Bill Simmons?

  Played the Eagles pretty early, put up 26 on them.

• 30:40Bill Simmons?

  If he wins the MVP as a six seed, that would be different than anything that's happened with the MVP.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Well, about if he's a five seed, because that's still in play.

• 30:51Bill Simmons?

  The wild card guys don't usually win.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  They don't.

• 30:54Bill Simmons?

  And here's my last case for my Drake May argument. It's like third and 70 on Monday night. And they have to run a play where they, where somebody catches it out of bounds.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I know.

• 31:04Bill Simmons?

  Stafford throws it. Pukunaku is so good.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  He saves it.

• 31:08Bill Simmons?

  He almost makes the greatest catch in the history of football. And actually makes the catch, but didn't get his second foot in. This is who he gets to throw to every week.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  And Bill, the play before Xavier Smith was open and Stafford missed him.

• 31:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I think Stafford's been good. I would have voted for him two weeks ago. I even thought maybe last week I would have voted for him.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I know. All right. I might change my vote. I might, honestly. I might. You made a great case.

• 31:34Bill Simmons?

  I just think the switch to teams, how does the guy do, I think matters in this. And the fact that May can move around and Stafford can't. It's, you can't say Stafford throws the ball better than May. You can't. If you watch May all year, you can't say anyone's throwing the ball better than him this year.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Oh, his completion numbers are insane.

• 31:50Bill Simmons?

  He completes 72% of his passes, but he's also like nailing deep throws. And he's throwing to guys that mostly aren't really open.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Stafford also had two awful halves. I mean, that Falcons half was awful in the first half against the Panthers was horrendous.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  It's hard for me to say that's an MVP season. I'm with you. It's hard. It's so difficult. I'm so glad I don't have a vote. But I also hope that the voters put as much time and thought into it as the three of us are right now, because I don't know if they do.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is going to be a two hour pod now.

• 32:21Bill Simmons?

  You know what really annoys me is House pretending he cares about the history of the NFL MVP. House, who won the 1997 NBA MVP?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Uh, 97. It was the year after MJ left. Uh, I don't know.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Karl Malone.

• 32:35Bill Simmons?

  Remember, yeah, Karl Malone won. Who won the 1997 NFL MVP? Nobody knows.

• 32:42Bill Simmons?

  I'll tell you right now.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Favre, I could do it.

• 32:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Favre.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  I could do it.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  You got that.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Ask me NBA, ask me NFL.

• 32:48Bill Simmons?

  Who won in 2002?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  What, NFL?

• 32:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, NFL MVP 2002.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Manning.

• 32:54Bill Simmons?

  Rich Gannon.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Ah!

• 32:57Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing with the NFL MVP has some stinkers who won like some.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Let's be fair.

• 33:02Bill Simmons?

  I'll do respect to Rich Gannon, but come on.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  We have Steve Nash on back to back MVPs in the NBA.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Good point there.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Back to back Steve Nash, Shaq was in the fucking league. Let me just remind everybody.

• 33:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was tough. All right, we'll take a break and then we'll do picks. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FTIC. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  Excitement is in the air. That's right, it's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tipoff Plus as the official beer sponsor of the NBA. Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with the experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary, open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. Shregs, I thought of another name for your running ESPN segment.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:40Bill Simmons?

  Shregs to riches.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Dude, I love it.

• 34:43Bill Simmons?

  Where it'd be like your name, but two riches and it'll be like you as like a rich guy and then a poor guy dressed like a pauper.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Pauper on the street.

• 34:51Bill Simmons?

  And it's like shrigs to riches.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  We need two riches, they already have a rich Eisen, can you get Rich Paul? There's two riches right there.

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  Bunch of riches. The best one, what was the one we said was the best one?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Peter's principles.

• 35:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Pete, no, there was another one. What was the one where you're doing this?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 35:07Bill Simmons?

  For Pete's sake.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Can Alabama play defense?

• 35:12Bill Simmons?

  It's like his, his, you've been mossed. For Pete's sake. For Pete's sake. Where's Christian McCaffrey in the MVP odds, guys?

• 35:21Bill Simmons?

  500 to 1 for Pete's sake.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Why didn't Miggy Rojas, his moment, win moment of the year?

• 35:29Bill Simmons?

  What are we doing?

• 35:32Bill Simmons?

  Any, before we do picks, any other topics you want to hit?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yes. I just watched this Indiana team kick the shit out of Alabama 38 to 3 on the Rose Bowl. I wanted to.

• 35:43Bill Simmons?

  I had money on it, House.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  I want to present two, two-pronged question to you. One, what is the comp for what this Signetti has done with the Indiana program? Is there one? And two, if you're an NFL team, are you not breaking down the doors to get this Signetti as your next head coach if you're one of these teams that are looking to hire a, a, a culture setter?

• 36:06Bill Simmons?

  There's three culture setter college coaches right now, right? Removing Lane Kiffin because he just took the job.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Lanning?

• 36:12Bill Simmons?

  Lanning, Notre Dame guy, and then Indiana guy.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Freeman's going back for sure.

• 36:17Bill Simmons?

  Freeman's already re-upped and did some new contracting, but those would be the three guys you would go after.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Indiana signed Signetti to an eight-year deal, but like the money to me is when NFL calls and like these guys listen.

• 36:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's interesting that there's no kick-ass candidate this year.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  There's not.

• 36:36Bill Simmons?

  Cause even last year was like basically you knew the Vrabel sweepstakes were coming.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Well, Ben Johnson and Vrabel were huge names. This year, so I'll tell you, because I talked to these folks, the four names you're going to get are Jesse Minter, the defensive coordinator for the Chargers, Jeff Halfley, the defensive coordinator for the, for the Packers, Chris Shula, defensive coordinator of the Rams. These are the hot names. And then of course you'll get, you know, other guys that have coached before or whatever. We'll go through it, but like this is not last year where it's Ben Johnson lighting up the league and it's Vrabel and it's the whole thing. So this is the perfect year for a team to think outside the box and say, you know what? Fuck it. I just watched this Indiana coach in two years bring this team from the most decrepit program

• 37:25Speaker 01

  in sports to one of the best coached, most disciplined teams. I would, I would, I'm going to go young here. I would throw the bag at them.

• 37:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, I would have said Atlanta was gonna have a job open, but Raheem's fighting to keep the job. He's one of the teams we're gonna cover.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Oh, Lord.

• 37:43Bill Simmons?

  Raheem's there.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 37:45Bill Simmons?

  Raheem is in control of the NFC South.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Here's my question. My question is, who is the last great from college directly into the pros to make an impact on the professional team?

• 37:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and Harbaugh almost doesn't count because he was the NFL quarterback.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Chip went to the playoffs his first year, but he wasn't sensational after that.

• 38:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, he was sensational this year as the Raiders offensive coordinator, but it's a different use of sensational.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  He's now the Northwestern.

• 38:16Bill Simmons?

  Northwestern hired him. Didn't they watch him work his magic with Vegas? Yeah, to me, it's apples and oranges. The best one ever with this was Spurrier, who took over House's team.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  That was.

• 38:27Bill Simmons?

  Forget what year that was.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  2001.

• 38:29Bill Simmons?

  And we knew it was done when it talked about how he worked from eight to four.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  So he could go play.

• 38:33Bill Simmons?

  And he wanted to go play golf.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Play golf, yeah.

• 38:36Bill Simmons?

  He had to be out of the facility by four. We were like, this guy's fucked.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  He brought in.

• 38:40Bill Simmons?

  He's going against dudes who work at 60 hours a day. It's over.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Very relatable. I understand where Steve's coming from.

• 38:46Bill Simmons?

  Um, yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  I'm an eight to four guy.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  With the comparison was significant. The name that I thought of, and I, I bring it to you because you guys are obviously sports aficionados and Bill, especially you as a Connecticut guy, Jim Calhoun with UConn is what I came up with.

• 38:59Bill Simmons?

  Hmm, or Gino, I guess, would be the other one. If Gino had done the crossover.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Like Bill Snyder at Kansas State.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  NBA.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Out of nowhere.

• 39:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that, I remember, House had another one, Leonard Hamilton, they hired for the whiz. From where? University of Miami or somewhere?

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Then he ended up at Florida State with a tremendous run, like a year after year of super competitive teams at Florida State. He just turned out to be as a college guy. Jimmy Johnson's pretty good.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Oh, shit.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Think about those. Those are.

• 39:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're going way back.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think for NFL, I would rather take a chance on a guy who's two or three years too young. Then do a college guy.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  That's your Chris.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  I think there's a higher success. Now, there's always like Raheem Morris at Tampa where he was like too young.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  He was 30. Yeah.

• 39:44Bill Simmons?

  But there's some other examples of getting the guy early and you'd rather be early than late. Cause at least you know, like it's like a 15, 16 hour job. What do you think is the best job that's going to be available though? Out of all the jobs?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Well, we have to first decide which ones are available because I think there's a couple of wild cards right now. I think we know the Giants and we know the Titans. Like I have no assurance that, that, that Atlanta is going to be available. I have no assurance that Mike McDaniel is coming back to the Dolphins and I have no assurance that Pete Carroll's out.

• 40:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, yeah, that Pete Carroll and then Stefanski, I think is a wild card too.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. So out of those teams of the maybes, and then, you know, if Tampa loses, people here, I'm reading the local newspaper when I was coming down here, like, I didn't even think of Todd Bowles, but people are like, how could you lose this season? Like, that's a total wild card. If the Glazers decide, you know what? Let's start anew. We got Baker, whatever.

• 40:37Bill Simmons?

  If Todd Bowles loses this game on Saturday, that's gotta be it for him.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  He's won four straight division titles.

• 40:45Bill Simmons?

  I know, but you lose eight of nine to end the year with a pretty talented roster. I don't know. What do you think, House? How does he come back after that?

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And to me, it's not an if. I don't, I don't think about Tampa this weekend as an if they, they lose.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  You take no chance, huh?

• 41:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, House.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  They doubt, they haven't covered in, in, in nine games. I mean, what, what evidence is there?

• 41:08Bill Simmons?

  Vibes look bad, Triggs. You're there. Your, your feet's on the ground.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Well, we had our meeting with the Buccaneers today on via Zoom and obviously you're going to get, you know, the optimistic team, but Baker said, I don't know if I'm revealing anything, you know, it's like there's rules against what you can share. So here I am. Baker said, he's like, you know, we've had control of, of our own destiny since week one. Suddenly we don't. So today's vibe at practice was good. It was like loose. It was like, fuck it. Let's just go and let's go do our thing. Like the pressure of losing that, finally they've lost that Carolina now controls their own destiny. So they're going to play loose. They hoping to get back Kalaja Cansey, hoping Tristan Wirfs plays. And if you know either one of those guys, if they're hoping they're, I imagine they're both going to be on the field. That's a better team than they had last week.

• 41:55Bill Simmons?

  I think Baker is like, Hassel get this because he's an actual hockey fan. When the hockey playoffs, the series ends and the team gets eliminated. It's like Brad Marshand was playing with a torn labrum and five broken ribs.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  You'll find that out after.

• 42:10Bill Simmons?

  And a herniated disc in his back. And it's just like all these injuries you didn't know. I can't wait to find out what Baker's injuries were. He has at least two.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Punched.

• 42:17Bill Simmons?

  There might be something wrong with both of his shoulders and there's something wrong with one of his legs. He can't move anymore and he's not accurate anymore.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  I don't want to be a dick, but like, you know, the gentle response to Baker is it's not suddenly, you're, you're, you're, you're two and eight over your last 10 games. It, it didn't happen all of a sudden. There were many, many, many winnable games in, in there.

• 42:39Bill Simmons?

  There were six and two. We're gonna, we're do, oh God.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  There were six and two and they, they beat the 49ers, the Texans, and they beat Seattle in Seattle. Can you imagine? They're missing the playoffs. And it's crazy.

• 42:52Bill Simmons?

  I want to get to the picks, but when we're talking about the coaching vacancies, let's just assume more jobs are going to be available than you think. Last year, Vrabel, who I think could have had his pick, was like, I want to coach Drake May. And I think even used the Jets as like, you know, a little bit of a straw man because he was trying to get Kraft to get to the right place. And was using a lot of people behind the scenes to hopefully get Kraft to see the light. And he did, and it worked out great. What do you think's the best job that might be available? Cause I think it's probably Baltimore.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:27Bill Simmons?

  If the Ravens lose on Sunday night, or if they get killed in round one, and they decide to stick with Lamar, they, something's gotta change. And Harbaugh's been there forever. And you could argue, new coach, he can see it differently. I would say Baltimore. Would you say somebody else?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  I know you're gonna say this is the bias in me, but there's a team with an elite pass rush, a franchise quarterback, and a left tackle on the roster in New York with Malik neighbors at wide receiver. You can argue that you step into that and the roster is there and you can be a lot further along than some of these other teams that have salary cap.

• 44:06Bill Simmons?

  Another top four pick.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Another top four pick, maybe a top two pick. Like Giants is, and it's the, it's that logo and it's that market. People do gravitate towards that.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  I mean, Harbaugh for the Giants makes sense to me. And, and I honestly, Pete, Pete, Pete, you know this. I'm calling you Pete because this is.

• 44:27Bill Simmons?

  Can't believe this. I've never been called Pete in my life.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Your boy. Cliff Kingsbury, Maine. I don't know about Cliff Kingsbury here in Washington. I don't know that that's a lifetime. They didn't sign him to a lifetime contract.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Did you see the stat? Washington, the schedule makers gave him eight standalone games this year. 0 and 8 in those games.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I'm, I watched.

• 44:50Bill Simmons?

  They need, when they do the schedule, and by the way, I would even say this with my own team. Although I think we're, we're set up a little better than Washington was because Washington had an old roster and

• 44:58Speaker 01

  old.

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  There were some predictable pieces about it, but they should take into account the year after when you went from the super easy schedule to, my dad and I were talking about the past schedule next year the other day. And we were like, oh my God. The, the check is coming.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  It sure is.

• 45:14Bill Simmons?

  For, uh, for everything that happened. Um, Cincinnati's mildly interesting, but I, they've won their last four and they'll probably, they're cheap. I can't see them paying two coaches.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  I think they'll keep it. They kept Marvin Lewis all those years. I want to go back. So Cliff, you're saying out, you would say he'd be a head coaching candidate? You would say that what the offensive?

• 45:31Bill Simmons?

  Cause there's no head coaching candidates.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Atlanta is an incredible situation. Atlanta is amazing on both sides of the ball. Holy shit. That's a good team.

• 45:40Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't agree with House more. I think that's the perfect team.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  If they could play any special teams whatsoever.

• 45:46Bill Simmons?

  They're the stupidest. How are they not a 10 and 5, 10 and 16 team right now?

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Who's your quarterback?

• 45:51Bill Simmons?

  And they traded next year's first round pick for another, another pass rusher.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  They don't have a first round pick. So who's your quarterback?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Malik Willis.

• 45:58Bill Simmons?

  Lamar Jackson.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Guys are the best.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Two greats, two, two great answers.

• 46:03Bill Simmons?

  I agree. I think Atlanta has a ton of talent.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  They're, they're very good on both sides of the ball.

• 46:07Bill Simmons?

  It's ridiculous that they're not going to be the winners of the NFC South. I can't believe they're not going to win it.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  They don't get a lot of credit as like a fervent fan base. That place was rocking if they just, if they just had a team that could like, I mean, it was amazing those years when they were going with Julio and Matt Ryan and all that. There was, that place was on fire on Monday night and gosh, if Lamar was their quarterback and Bijon in the backfield, are you serious?

• 46:34Bill Simmons?

  When my team played them? First of all, they were way scarier. Like to me, they they felt like an 11 win team when we're playing them.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  They beat Buffalo.

• 46:42Bill Simmons?

  Drake London, we couldn't stop. Was terrified of Robinson, you know, it just, it's just hard to believe. You watched them last week at the Rams. I was scared of that game all week because I had had the Rams in a money line. I ended up doing a giant hedge the other way, but it felt like just a live spot for Atlanta. And yet they went full Atlanta in the game. The game was over. All of a sudden it wasn't. All of a sudden it seemed like they were going to blow it.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:07Bill Simmons?

  It's classic. Um, I have seven games to discuss for Ringer 107. And I'm just going to list the games. And if there's a game missing, tell me. Bucks, Panthers, Falcons, Saints, Seahawks, 49ers, Ravens, Steelers. We have to talk about those four. I want to talk about Bengals, Browns, because I have some hard thoughts on that. Vikings, Packers, and Chiefs, Raiders. Were the seven I was looking at for picks. Is there anything else, House?

• 47:34Speaker 02

  I wonder about the Bills, just because.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  So Allen's sitting. I, I don't know what the Jets motivations are. Mitch Trubisky.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Doesn't it matter to the Bills, though? Doesn't, wouldn't they prefer?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  They can go from five to six, right? Or seven?

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, wouldn't they? It's a, it's a question. I'll put it.

• 47:53Bill Simmons?

  But it's a, it's a high line, though. So I don't know what even what you do with it.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Tease it. That's one thing you could do.

• 47:59Bill Simmons?

  I know, but we can't do that for Ringer 107.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Great.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I, I, before we even get into it, week one, my old colleague and dear friend Kyle Brandt on Good Morning Football used to say, week one is a liar. Stay away, no matter what. You don't know what the hell we're getting. Stay away. I think week 18 is a liar as well. I have no, you have no idea what teams with nothing to gain are going to come out and play with their hats on fire. Like the Dolphins did to the Patriots all those years and those meaningless, you know, you don't know. But I like to find teams that have something to play for and play in those parameters. I don't know what the hell to do with Chiefs, Raiders.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, so the case you just laid out is actually the case for this game because we do know what one of the teams wants to do. That is lose with the Raiders.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 48:43Bill Simmons?

  And the Chiefs are five and a half. It's in Vegas. The Raiders' points the last eight weeks, they scored seven, 16, 10, 14, 17, 0, 21 in the Houston game, which included a pick six. And then 10 against the Giants.

• 49:04Bill Simmons?

  And my question is, is it just Casey moneyline parlayed with an under 42 and a half? Thinking the Raiders can't score more than 10 points and the Chiefs have Michael Olowa Candy as their quarterback?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  It's all a token.

• 49:20Bill Simmons?

  Is that just a game we should be looking at, knowing that Vegas is not going to try to win the game? They do not want to win.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I don't want to have anything to do with it, to be honest with you.

• 49:31Bill Simmons?

  That's fine.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  I really don't. How many Chiefs starters on defense are gonna sit?

• 49:36Bill Simmons?

  That's fine. Let's, we'll cross it off.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  You've also, you've also seen these games. I mean, I remember the Jets Rams a couple of years ago where the team has nothing to play for, but the number one pick, but the players don't play that way.

• 49:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but they keep sitting all the players that could impact the game.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  I know.

• 49:52Bill Simmons?

  They must've cut a deal with Pete, the other Pete.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  The other Pete.

• 49:55Bill Simmons?

  Not Pete Schrager, Pete Carroll. Yeah, they must've cut a deal like, we're gonna get rid of the rest of these games. Please let's lose. We'll get Mendoza next year.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  And you could stay.

• 50:04Bill Simmons?

  Spend some money. You can stay. And maybe they'll double cross them.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  I don't think Tom Brady wants that.

• 50:09Bill Simmons?

  Packers, Packers locked in the seven seed, starting Clayton Toon?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Had to sign Desmond Ritter.

• 50:16Bill Simmons?

  Yep. Vikings laying seven and a half?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 50:19Bill Simmons?

  Did one, four straight can lock down nine, nine and eight for the year?

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Let's go get it. That's one, that's one love.

• 50:26Bill Simmons?

  Shrek, so the Packers playing anybody in this game?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  No, and their defense, their defense has been ravaged to the bone and they're not gonna try to play any of those guys on defense, I would imagine, with a playoff game coming up the next week.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  They just signed Trayvon Diggs, didn't they?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  They did. I can't imagine.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  He ain't in the football field this week.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Can't imagine he's gonna be picking his two passes off.

• 50:48Bill Simmons?

  My Cowboys fan friends seem to think he was like genuinely terrible for the Cowboys this year. Is that true?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of stuff apparently. I don't know all the details, but there was off the field and on the field.

• 51:00Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Love the Vikings. Who's playing quarterback?

• 51:05Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna bold the Vikings.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Is JJ playing or is it?

• 51:07Bill Simmons?

  It's our guy, the bro.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Is it Brozmer?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  It's my man Brozmer.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  All right.

• 51:12Bill Simmons?

  Bengals, Browns.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  We're on the same side of this one, too. I know already.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Let me hear.

• 51:19Bill Simmons?

  First of all, Cleveland, I saw this in Aaron Schatz's thing. Cleveland now has the ninth worst DVOA offense of all time.

• 51:29Bill Simmons?

  And they have the 10th worst special teams of all time.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 51:33Bill Simmons?

  Then you have

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  pretty like frisky at home, not always reliable, but frisky and on the road, one of the worst road teams in a while. You have no Harold Fann in this game house.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Out.

• 51:45Bill Simmons?

  He was like their one target. Since he waited DVOA, which they do that it's kind of favors the second part of the year, the last two thirds. They're 17th. They looked good last week. This feels like a run it up. Let's try to end the season with good vibes.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  You know what sucks is yes, we are absolutely positively betting the Bengals. I lay seven and a half, make it 10 and a half. I don't give a fuck. We're laying all the points.

• 52:12Bill Simmons?

  13 and a half.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Fine, whatever you want. Let's alt.

• 52:15Bill Simmons?

  What happens if they go up 10-0? The Browns are, how are they gonna score?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  No chance, zero chance. Yeah, we're alt spreading the hell out of that with my real pocketbook. But here's what I hate. Here's what I hate. The beginning of next season, when we're sitting and looking at how the Bengals finished the season, especially.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  They won eight games.

• 52:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Their defense got much better, like from week 10 till now.

• 52:39Bill Simmons?

  It is. It's noticeable when you watch, like they actually have like a little bit of a pass rush now. They stop the run. They're different.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:46Bill Simmons?

  I agree.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  This is the first time since 2021, they have won by 20 points, two games in a row.

• 52:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, they had that crazy Baltimore 24-0 loss.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:57Bill Simmons?

  Where I actually thought their defense played pretty good and Borough like single-handedly killed the game for them. And was like sad listening to the Smiths Borough.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  He's happy now.

• 53:06Bill Simmons?

  Now he's happy again. There's some like Chase Brown has some incentive stuff in this game. There's some money incentive stuffs on the Bengal side that you gotta watch for. All right, I'm gonna mark that one.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Lockstep.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Alt spread.

• 53:21Bill Simmons?

  Ravens Steelers.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Ooh. Where do you?

• 53:25Bill Simmons?

  It feels like a stay away, but it's also a playoff game and I feel like cowards if we're not betting it. It's Ravens three and a half in Pittsburgh. Winner gets the four seed.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Lamar playing.

• 53:38Bill Simmons?

  Lamar definitely playing.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:41Bill Simmons?

  The thing for me, House, is the no Metcalf piece and how, how impotent the Steelers offense looked without Metcalf. It was like, nothing around in the red zone works anymore. Plus, they lost the giant tight end. He broke his arm.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:56Bill Simmons?

  So nothing in the red zone works for them anymore. They don't get the Rogers third and nine bailout, wrong shoulder throws to Metcalf anymore. This is just out of the offense. And all it did is basically stop the run and what are they gonna do? I don't, Shiggs, I don't, I don't see a case here for

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Here's the case.

• 54:14Bill Simmons?

  Okay, let's hear it. Well, they're underdogs, which is always dangerous. Home underdogs.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Rogers fucking lives for these moments. Whether you think he's clutching these games or not, he, this is, he's not gonna lay an egg here. And they were in the same exact situation before they played Baltimore the last time. Came out swimming from the jump and Baltimore didn't have an answer. Like, this is the season on the line. It's, it's Tomlin, it's everything. And last week was horrendous. And down the stretch, you know, here's, here's what kills you down the stretch. In February, you go to the combine, you spend, you know, a hundred thousand dollars sending your entire staff there to do scouting and March you do free agency, April you do the draft, you get Rogers and they, they signed Valdez Scantling a week ago and he's getting the pass for three, three straight plays at the end of the game. It's like they're

• 55:00Bill Simmons?

  They were running the Metcalf plays for him.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  They thought he was Metcalf and he hasn't been on the team and he hasn't been playing football. So that's what, now, it's like, all right, take a breath. We're home. TJ Watt, we'll see if he plays. The hope is he's back. And

• 55:17Bill Simmons?

  After he got stabbed.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Tyron Taylor style.

• 55:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  So I, and here's the other part of it. It's such a wide open AFC and I know you're saying the Patriots and we're talking about the Broncos and the Texans. It's like, I could see the pep talk before the game. Rogers looking around the quarterback room of the rest of the AFC and seeing Drake May and Bo Nix and Trevor Lawrence and saying, are you fucking kidding me? Like, get me in that dance and, and let's, let's see what we can do. I've been there and I, you know, so all this stuff is, could be moot if Derrick Henry runs for 200 yards and Lamar is running all over them. But I kinda like the Steelers in this one.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Well, that you're supposed to because in the first place, when the line in this series is three points or more, and it's three and a half right now, the underdog is 24, five and three.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  The spread. And, and on top of that, as an underdog against the Ravens, Mike Tomlin, 14, four and two against the spread. When the line is three or more, so you're supposed to like the Steelers here. Man, does it hurt? I don't like any aspect of it.

• 56:26Bill Simmons?

  Might be a stay away.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  Can I redo the receivers the Steelers had last week?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Give me some Scotty Miller. Give it to me.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  Friarmouth led the team, three catches for 63.

• 56:38Bill Simmons?

  Scotty Miller was three for 25. Valdez Scantling, three for 21 with nine targets. Three for 21. J Smith?

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Johnu.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's Johnu Smith. Forgot he played.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Did Adam Thielen get one?

• 56:53Bill Simmons?

  Washington, two for 15.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  And then he broke his arm.

• 56:55Bill Simmons?

  He's gone for the year. Adam Thielen, two for 14 with five targets. And then Gainwell, three for 12.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:03Bill Simmons?

  Are you serious? How are they gonna move the ball?

• 57:07Speaker 02

  For Pete's sake.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  For Pete's sake.

• 57:12Bill Simmons?

  So House, can I at least offer you a life raft with not having to go against the Steelers as a home dog?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Let me hear how you're doing.

• 57:22Bill Simmons?

  Ravens money line, under 50 and a half points gets us eligible for Ringer 107 stuff. They would have to score 51 points to beat us with Steelers team that has no receivers and a Ravens team that's just going to run the ball with Lamar Jackson.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  And Derek Henry.

• 57:41Bill Simmons?

  Not even sure I want to do that.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  I.

• 57:43Bill Simmons?

  But I'm just.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  I would like.

• 57:44Bill Simmons?

  The other way we go is Baltimore money line over 32 and a half. If you think the game can get to 33 points.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  I don't want to do a combination because we just did this. We just, we just.

• 57:54Bill Simmons?

  We did, we got host.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:56Bill Simmons?

  Fuck ourselves.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  How are Malik Willis and Snoop Huntley going to score 50 points? Well, guess what?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Highest scoring game of the season.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:04Bill Simmons?

  So maybe it's a stay away.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:08Bill Simmons?

  I saw Schreigs on ESPN and his for Pete's sake segment doing the don't count out Aaron Rodgers for Pete's sake.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  His MVP last year.

• 58:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, the thing is if they get in, so Rodgers in locker room, like all I have to do is win this game.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:22Bill Simmons?

  They were home. Metcalf back next week.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Home, probably on Monday night.

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  Beat every wild card in the league. Let's go.

• 58:30Bill Simmons?

  So there's a case where everyone has money on the Ravens, like everybody. And it's like the classic, like January Lamar.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Can I, can I request something?

• 58:39Bill Simmons?

  Followed by like what happens in the future.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Can I get Chris Collinsworth from you after a crazy Aaron Rodgers touchdown pass in the fourth quarter? Bill, can I get the impression?

• 58:49Bill Simmons?

  Mike, I mean, Adam Thielen should be, should have been out of the league five years ago, Mike. Here he is catching back shoulder balls in the end zone. All right, we could stay away.

• 59:03Bill Simmons?

  Seahawks minus one and a half in San Francisco. Winner gets the one seed. They played in week one. It was San Francisco 17, Seattle 13. And in the sports movie version of this game, Mike McCarthy watches the video of him being a coward.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Mike McDonald.

• 59:21Bill Simmons?

  Mike McDonald. Sorry, Mike McCarthy. Mike McDonald watches the video of him cowarding out and kicking the field goal when he shouldn't have, when he should have just gone for the fucking fourth and one kill and cost them the game. Now he has a chance to avenge it. I just want to point out, San Francisco has the 27th ranked defense in DVOA. I know we talked about them a bunch earlier, but if there's ever a team to light the wick on Sam Darnold's candle, it's this Niners defense. Sam Darnold's been under siege a couple of games against good defenses. Now finally some, some space and being able to see things and they'll be able to run the ball and, and they have a really good

• 1:00:05Bill Simmons?

  defense, which San Francisco has not faced in a while. I am leaning pretty hard Seattle here, Shakes.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Nobody has played quarterback better the last two weeks in the NFL than Brock Purdy.

• 1:00:15Bill Simmons?

  I get it.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  This, this offense is, is as good as.

• 1:00:19Bill Simmons?

  Throw a pick six.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  It's as good as anybody has put on the field the last few weeks. And I, you know, Seattle's traveling all the way back from Carolina. They have a short week, have to play Saturday night on the road. There's a lot of things to like about San Francisco and obviously.

• 1:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Do you feel like San Francisco has a home field advantage in that weird Santa Clara stadium?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yes, that place, that place was rocking last week.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  I've never seen a football game there.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  No, and it's not Candlestick, trust me. It's not, but it's also not MetLife where you walk in and you feel like you're at a dentist's office. I would, I would say the carrot at the end of this thing. Is the first team ever to be the number one seed and have a Super Bowl at home. So it's like, if we just can win this game, we don't have to sleep in another bed other than our own the entire way and we could be Super Bowl champions. And that's the message there right now, like get through this game, one win at a time, but geez.

• 1:01:10Bill Simmons?

  House would be the opposite. House would be like, I'd love to be the seventh seed. I'm just on the road for a month. This is great. I love living out of hotel rooms.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Four straight. That's, that's.

• 1:01:19Bill Simmons?

  House, what's your, what's your? First of all, I don't think anyone needs a carrot in this game. It's for the number one seed. You have to play in round one.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  And I'm not trying to guess incentives.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  I'd also add Clint Kubiak, former Shanahan disciple. Sam Darnold, Shanahan had him for the year.

• 1:01:37Bill Simmons?

  Shanahan revival.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Rehabilitated him.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, rehabilitated him a little bit.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  So there might be, I mean, you could say that, okay, that means they're going to be okay. But, or the Niners know what's, what the pros and the cons are of that team.

• 1:01:49Bill Simmons?

  Can I add one thing here?

• 1:01:52Bill Simmons?

  McCaffrey looked fucking banged up by the end of that last game.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  That's, that is such an X factor. I totally agree with this.

• 1:01:59Bill Simmons?

  The number one reason I want to take Seattle. That did not seem like the kind of guy who wanted a 35 touch workload in this game.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  He was doing.

• 1:02:08Bill Simmons?

  So what do you think, House?

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  The plank where, with the stretches, where you try and get your hamstrings into your glutes. He's on the sideline doing that in the end of the third quarter. The poor man, I felt so bad.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  House and I are old guys. We know all the old guy bad back moves. We have done all of them.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  They hit me in the heart. Um, I am pretty strong on Seattle here. I really think that, that, um, this defense that can put pressure on without blitzing and drop guys back into the middle of the field. Brock Purdy lives in the middle of the field. He, we just watched and he's going to have Kittle back. But man, every time they need third and six, second, he goes right to the middle of the field and he is incredible at it. But like, if you look at the defenses, the success rate of the defenses, since he came back from injury, all they've done is beat up on, on questionable defenses. The, the two best defenses that they've played were Cleveland.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Who they took care of with, you know, Cleveland being buffoons and Carolina, who also had their own sort of version of buffoonery. And there were not incredible like yards per play numbers or success numbers for the San Francisco offense against those defenses. This is an entirely different level of defense. And Mike McDonald now with his ability to put pressure on, especially with Trent Williams, the news doesn't seem good. If he's out, then give me Seattle all day.

• 1:03:37Bill Simmons?

  See if Kiddo playing hurt, probably playing. You McCaffrey playing hurt. If Trent Williams probably not playing. You have a defense that I'm looking at the Bears last week. They gave up 38 points to the Bears. And by the way, it should have been 45. Caleb Williams kind of gacked that last throw. He did. Guy was open.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Good defense though. One of those touchdowns was a pick six. So they, it was 31 they gave up.

• 1:04:04Bill Simmons?

  Oh, fair. All right. But still, they could have had, if they score on that last drive, they would have had six scoring drives, five offensive touchdowns.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:04:13Bill Simmons?

  And there were guys open all over Luther Burden. By the end of that game, you thought he was Jerry Rice.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Well, they, they more, they jumping.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  He's crying.

• 1:04:23Bill Simmons?

  So you have Seattle who can go, they can go big, they can go smaller, they can control the ball. I, I don't, I don't want to bet on Darnold in a playoff game when he's going against an awesome defense. I'm just telling you now, I'm not doing that.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Me either.

• 1:04:37Bill Simmons?

  That is a cross off for me.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  No, thank you.

• 1:04:39Bill Simmons?

  But when he's going against a flimsy defense, I don't mind Sam Darnold. Sam Darnold's put up big stats and against bad defenses. And I just think with like, with the health tricks, I think you're getting outvoted on this one.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Winning in last year's, if they win against Detroit in a big spot, Sam Darnold's team gets the one seed and gets a week off and then could just rest everybody. And you remember what happened on that Sunday night to Detroit. I'm not, I am a Sam Darnold fan and I think he is, he is, I mean, look at his wins the last two years. This guy can play, but Purdy in these games.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  Darnold redemption.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Brock Purdy's a robot in these games. He is like from another planet. He is, he is, he's Terminator two. I, I don't know, man. I look at the quarterbacks, I look at the coaches, I look at the big game experience. Give me San Francisco at home.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Pretty good.

• 1:05:29Bill Simmons?

  All right. We'll see who's right because House and I are jumping on Seattle. Jumping on them.

• 1:05:38Bill Simmons?

  Atlanta and the Saints.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Such a fun game.

• 1:05:41Bill Simmons?

  Three.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Two best teams in the NFC South.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 1:05:44Bill Simmons?

  If Atlanta wins, Carolina quenches the NFC South. Now, Carolina, Tampa, that's the last game we're talking about.

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  I love the Falcons in this game. When they scratched, I love them before they scratched Alave. When they scratched Alave, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Cause I've actually watched a lot of the Saints, House, and I have quietly been betting Saints games. And mostly in the Saints. They lost Vele, who was actually really coming on for them.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:09Bill Simmons?

  And then everything moved to Alave, who all of a sudden looked like a top five guy again. Now he's out. I just, there are no weapons anymore. And Tyler Shuck, it's like, I didn't know how he was doing it to begin with. And then this Atlanta team, this would just be the most Atlanta game ever to beat the Saints. By the way, with the Saints, like they proved what they want to prove. They have hope for next year. Like, it actually makes sense for them not to care about this game. I love Falcons by three. This is a classic Falcons game, House. What do you think?

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  Shreks, I want you to help us because the only thing that concerns me is that Shuck has played his way legitimately into the offensive Rookie of the Year conversation.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  He's winning it. It's over. He won.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay. Well, there you go.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Who would be the alternative?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Everybody has, it's Ted, you know, Ted, Ted.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  No, it's Shuck.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  I'm just telling you, like, let's look, I'll look at the market while we're talking this through.

• 1:07:01Bill Simmons?

  I thought they were, they're like co-favorites right now.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  But that, right. That's what I mean. So, but Shreks is telling us.

• 1:07:06Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I left that one case for, I left that one case for Atlanta, Shreks.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Bill Simmons?

  They don't have their first round pick.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  No, I know. They have nothing, there's no tanking here and their coach is below.

• 1:07:16Bill Simmons?

  Literally have nothing to play for and their coach is trying to keep his job.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  And they love him. The players love him because he's the nicest guy in the world.

• 1:07:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And I also think they have way more talent than the Saints as, as good as House's old buddy Chase Young has been.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  You made a great point, though. They've proven what they wanted to. I could see them saying, all right, that was awesome.

• 1:07:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  There also is a big difference between a fourth place schedule going into 2026, 2027, and a third place schedule. That's not, that's not like to be dismissed out of hand. There's a bunch of injuries. You keep seeing defensive guys for the Saints on the injury list. Like, you know, we're doing this on Thursday night, so we'll have to see how that that plays out. Because the defense has quietly been the thing that they're, you know, they've covered five straight games and won four outright.

• 1:08:05Bill Simmons?

  And they've been good in second halves and stuff, too. Yeah, they like shut down drives. So I'm looking at the stats from last week. They beat Tennessee by eight. Olave was eight for 119, had 11 targets. The next guy was Juwan Johnson had four targets. Pettis had three. Austin Jr. With five. Mataveo with two. I mean, they got no guys. If Atlanta can't win this game, give me a break. The other thing, it's just the most NFC South thing ever. If Tampa beat Carolina and then got knocked out by Atlanta. It's just like.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  No, I think it's, I think it's the other way around.

• 1:08:43Bill Simmons?

  It's hilarious.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  They need Atlanta to lose, right?

• 1:08:47Bill Simmons?

  Who? Tampa needs Atlanta to lose.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:51Bill Simmons?

  But it would be hilarious if Tampa won and then Atlanta won and they got knocked out even though they won. But I think the Carolina Bucks game.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Wait, are we messing that up? I'm sorry. I have to make sure.

• 1:09:04Bill Simmons?

  No, we're not messing this up. If Atlanta wins, Carolina clinches the NFC South, no matter what happens in Carolina. Yeah.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  All right. Every Buccaneers fan is a Tyler Shuck fan. Yes, that's right. That's what I said to myself to get this right. Yep.

• 1:09:19Bill Simmons?

  Bucks minus three Panthers is the last one. This is an I'm so stupid game because no matter what happens, if you're on the wrong side after this game, you tell yourself how stupid you are. Bucks, we covered all this stuff with them. We saw this game in Week 16. Carolina 23, Tampa 20. It felt like Tampa should have won the whole game and they just kept doing dumb shit. Carolina kept having drives. And then as House loves to point out. House's favorite zigzag team, the Carolina Panthers. Since week seven.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Bad.

• 1:09:47Bill Simmons?

  Win, loss, win, loss, win. They've done this for almost three months. House, you love this when this happens.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Every one of their wins, they have eight wins this season, has come as an underdog. What are they this week? An underdog. It's time to play the Carolina Panthers.

• 1:10:06Bill Simmons?

  It's an even week. They're unstoppable in even weeks.

• 1:10:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, look, this isn't either team could win. You might as well grab the points would be. And also like with the Bucks, because I started the week and even like started this podcast, you probably could have talked me into the Bucks. But as we laid out how awful they've been for two straight months and how we don't know if Baker Mayfield is healthy, like it just, this would be an I'm feel stupid game if you lay minus three with them.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  They just lost to Quinn fucking Ubers. What are we talking about? Their playoff life was on the line. Their destiny was in their own hands. Their defense has been horrendous.

• 1:10:44Bill Simmons?

  There's, I know.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Their defensive backfield, which was the strength of those teams, you know, with Brady and the last couple of years with Baker, their defensive backfield is just completely ravaged with injury now.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  I would add, I would add this from the Tampa side of it, just having talked to Bowls and those guys. Let me just say.

• 1:11:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he didn't. I talked to Bowls.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  On a production meeting call, that's official.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Sneaky Pete.

• 1:11:08Bill Simmons?

  Sneaky Pete.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Sneaky Pete.

• 1:11:10Bill Simmons?

  I just talked to Bowls here on Sneaky Pete.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  They, they've got Mike Evans, they've got Tristan Wirfs, they've got Baker Mayfield, they've got Levante David. These guys are like v-ings who have been there and done that and to just completely shit the bed and let the season go to waste. Like, there is pride in that room. And if this is Levante David's last game, there's something to rally around there. There's just.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but why didn't they rally the last five weeks?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Back against the wall. I don't know.

• 1:11:44Bill Simmons?

  Happened last week.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  All right. That was my, that was, I tried.

• 1:11:46Bill Simmons?

  Why didn't that happen in week 16 when they played Carolina?

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  They should have been very proud to beat Carolina. Exactly.

• 1:11:53Bill Simmons?

  That's why this is such a great game because you can totally talk yourself into it. By the way, I don't really want to take Carolina.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  What's so crazy is-

• 1:12:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't feel great about it. I don't trust Bryce Young.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  They were, you know, remember Ibuka was like the rookie of the year, the only-

• 1:12:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  He was the only guy healthy. Everyone's healthy on that receivers room. Now they got Bucky Irving, they got Tucker, they got, like, everyone's healthy on offense. And they've completely gone into the waste basket.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Seventeen points against Miami, 20 points against Carolina.

• 1:12:23Bill Simmons?

  Here's my only other fear with this game, House. When they played two weeks ago, Tampa had the ball for almost 35 minutes. Carolina had the ball for 25 minutes.

• 1:12:36Bill Simmons?

  Tampa rushed for 169 yards.

• 1:12:41Bill Simmons?

  Do they just like run the ball down Carolina's throats and just tell Baker, don't be crazy here? That'd be my fear. This is why this is an I'm so stupid game.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  Carolina only ran for 101 yards in that game. Which if you're gonna make the case for Carolina, they're gonna be able to run the ball.

• 1:13:03Bill Simmons?

  McMillan's back this week, right?

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Bill Simmons?

  And it's an even week.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  It's an even week!

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  Well, let me ask this.

• 1:13:13Bill Simmons?

  And Tampa has proven that home field advantage means nothing to them because they keep losing games at home.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Should we just stay away?

• 1:13:21Bill Simmons?

  Oh. Oh.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Should we, because these are two stupid teams. I mean, we've just established that they're, neither one of them is the best team in the NFC South. But they're playing-

• 1:13:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, if we stay away from this, then that means we have to either take Ravens Steelers or Chiefs Raiders.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  Why are you afraid-

• 1:13:42Bill Simmons?

  That means we just have to take the Chiefs minus five and a half.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Let me, why wouldn't, why don't you like Houston? What are you afraid of with Houston? They still have a chance to win the AFC South. And they're playing at the same time as Jacksonville.

• 1:13:55Bill Simmons?

  The Jags.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now the Jags have Tennessee. And so Houston will be looking and seeing the Jags up 21 points, you know.

• 1:14:03Bill Simmons?

  You just laid the case why I'm afraid of them because they, in the second half, they could just not give a shit about the game.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  But they are also playing Riley Leonard. Riley Leonard is traveling to Houston to play football against the Houston Texans.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  I can't, the Colts have a lot of good dudes, though.

• 1:14:18Bill Simmons?

  They still have like talent on offense.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:20Bill Simmons?

  I just worry about Houston at halftime going call off the dogs. Time to see what we got.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Fair enough.

• 1:14:26Bill Simmons?

  Everybody.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Fair enough. Fair enough.

• 1:14:27Bill Simmons?

  Can I? The only other one I was honestly looking at was the Dolphins.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Shrek's has a point.

• 1:14:31Bill Simmons?

  Dolphins plus 11 and a half in New England with, with, uh, I don't know. I just think that line's way too high.

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  I agree with you, but the Patriots keep covering those big lines. I'm not messing around with it.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  This is unrelated to the games this week, but it is something I've thought through. The Texans right now would most likely be the five seed. Okay.

• 1:14:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  The four seed would most likely be the winner of the, it is the Ravens Steelers winner.

• 1:14:59Bill Simmons?

  It's the Steelers hosting somebody.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Or the Ravens, right?

• 1:15:03Bill Simmons?

  Or the Ravens.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Now, the four, five matchup is traditionally the wild card Monday night game.

• 1:15:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  I don't think back to back weeks ESPN is going to get Carolina or Tampa as their Monday, you know, as they're on their slate. They have it this week. I don't, which leads me to Texans Ravens on Monday. Texans Ravens or Texans Steelers? I tell you this three minute soliloquy. I think the shaky's game with the Texans is in trouble, guys.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no. Did you tell Sal?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I have not told Sal. I don't think they're playing on Saturday afternoon this year, guys.

• 1:15:47Bill Simmons?

  All right, I'm gonna have to make an executive call with one of the picks.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  You're allowed.

• 1:15:53Bill Simmons?

  I think we're right to stay away from Carolina.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  I have to roll that.

• 1:15:57Bill Simmons?

  Carolina, Tampa. It's such a stupid game. All right, today's Ringer 107 presented by FanDuel. And here's what we're gonna do. We've agreed on four of these picks and then I'm audibling on the fifth one.

• 1:16:12Bill Simmons?

  Seahawks minus one and a half in San Francisco. Shreigs made a very strong enticing case for the 49ers.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Good case.

• 1:16:19Bill Simmons?

  That was overruled by House.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:16:20Bill Simmons?

  Because we think the Niners are too banged up. We like the Sam Darnold against a flimsy defense and the Seahawks D. And we just think they're a worthy win seed. By the way, incredible DVOA team, Seattle. San Francisco 27 DVOA defense. Uh, so that's one. House and I both love the Bengals in a smash spot against the Browns. Minus seven and a half against one of the worst offenses in the history of the league. Now playing without Harold Fannin. And the Bengals just pouring on, trying to confuse us for next July. As we're looking at their division odds. Uh, House, is this your favorite game?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  I really love it. Yes.

• 1:16:57Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Next one, Vikings minus seven and a half at home against the Packers. And Shreigs, this guy Clayton tuned.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 1:17:06Bill Simmons?

  Minnesota could lock down nine and eight for the season. They could lock down a five game winning streak. They could talk themselves into a, oh, if this hadn't happened and this hadn't happened, blah, blah, blah. Maybe we would have won 11 games.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  If they had a professional quarterback.

• 1:17:19Bill Simmons?

  Right. And Green Bay locked into seven. They don't care. This is a, let's not get anyone hurt. Let's get the fuck out of Dodge game. So that is one, two, three. Oh, and then, uh, we have Falcons, Saints. Falcons minus three.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Can you imagine? It's going to come down to a Falcons game, the most perplexing, maddening, vexing team in the NFL this season.

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  They've just run out of playmakers. Kudos to them for a spirited second half effort, but they have nobody left for Taylor Shuck to do anything with. Falcons, this would be the most classic thing ever. If Tampa wins and then the Falcons knock them out of the playoffs, but don't win the NFC South. Falcons minus three, that's our fourth one. And then our fifth one. We're going to do the Baltimore money line in a parlay that House hates.

• 1:18:15Bill Simmons?

  Ravens minus three nap against the Steelers. I don't trust it. Steelers home underdog. House laid out all the case. I just think the Ravens have a better team. And you take DK Metcalf out. I have no idea how the Steelers move ball. Shriggs warned us. He begged us.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Begged.

• 1:18:29Bill Simmons?

  Told us to listen to him.

• 1:18:32Bill Simmons?

  Technically not listening or not listening to him because we're not doing the minus three, five. We're in Baltimore money. House, you pick over thirty two and a half or under fifty and a half?

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  I don't want responsibility for this.

• 1:18:45Bill Simmons?

  Which one you pick?

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  I mean, is it this game of ten game? It's a thirteen.

• 1:18:50Bill Simmons?

  All right. So we're going Ravens money line, under fifty and a half points.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Bill Simmons?

  How is this game gonna have fifty one points?

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  How do any of these games do this?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  I mean, Derek. New Putley last week, you know.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:19:04Bill Simmons?

  Those are the Ringer one oh seven picks for week eighteen. All lines are lines that could potentially change on Fanduel. Wanted to mention that. What was your favorite pick, Shriggs? Cincinnati?

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  I like the Cincinnati. I feel good. They're they're vibing the right way. And I think Cleveland had their had their moment last week. Beat the Steelers.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Their Super Bowl.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  They'll get the sack too. The Joe Joe P will go down.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  They'll get the sack.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  For miles.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  As an aside, I am getting texts from everyone in my life that this rewatchables top fifty movies of the two thousands that you just sprung on your two co.

• 1:19:41Bill Simmons?

  Twenty first century, not two thousand.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Twenty first century.

• 1:19:43Bill Simmons?

  The blind, blind podcast.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  You just blindly dropped on these two cinephiles of yours.

• 1:19:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Arguably your greatest podcast episode.

• 1:19:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  In maybe a decade.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  Enjoyed it.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  There's a lot of talk online that you have. You are right now in the zone, like a Steph Curry zone the last few months.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:20:03Bill Simmons?

  Is there HGH rumors yet?

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  No, this is, this is heat check Bill Simmons. And I know you don't, I know you don't respond to the Reddit thing, but they tag me and everything. And.

• 1:20:13Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  The pendulum has completely swung back that they're all in on Simmons. They're all in on Simmons.

• 1:20:18Bill Simmons?

  They don't know. Plus, I gave up sugar. Twenty twenty six can be my best year.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  They don't know that we went to Germany two weeks ago.

• 1:20:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we met House and I keep flying to Germany.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  Sneaky, sneaky Germany.

• 1:20:27Bill Simmons?

  That same Reddit. Was like blood spinning?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Blood spinning, yes.

• 1:20:31Bill Simmons?

  That's my next move.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  That same Reddit feed said that I was, I had a splitting image with Lena Dunham last time I was on the podcast, which I don't know how to take that.

• 1:20:41Bill Simmons?

  I just don't like the meanness.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  This is kind of funny.

• 1:20:44Bill Simmons?

  Internet threads.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  I like it. I like it too. Did you, wait, when does your no sugar, no, when is all that started?

• 1:20:51Bill Simmons?

  Started five days ago.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:20:53Bill Simmons?

  Why do you think I've been on fire this whole podcast?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  What'd you eat after all the drinking yesterday?

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean?

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  You were on a bar crawl. What'd you eat at the end of the bar crawl? You didn't have hummus, motherfucker?

• 1:21:06Bill Simmons?

  No, we, we ate some stuff. It wasn't, but no dessert, nothing.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  No dessert is fine. What about?

• 1:21:11Bill Simmons?

  I will say I did have a.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Two slices?

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  I did have a margarita last night, which I think has sugar in it.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that definitely has sugar in it.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  Skinny girl.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  It was not skinny girl.

• 1:21:22Bill Simmons?

  It's good. House, you're just jealous. My, I was doing great for like three, for four years. I was so focused on eating and being careful. House came out in the summer of 2017. We had launched House of Carbs, the food podcast with House. And we wanted, House wanted to go to all these LA spots. And House was here and I gained five pounds in four days with House.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 1:21:47Bill Simmons?

  Including we went to that pastrami place.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Oh, so goddamn good.

• 1:21:50Bill Simmons?

  We went to the Patty Mel place. All of a sudden I went off the wagon. It was, it was like the guy in The Sopranos who started gambling again. I was friends with Christopher Moltisante.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Not the guy who's working in the sporting goods store?

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  That, no, that's another guy who went off the wagon. But yeah, House like, I was doing so well. And then House is like, well, we gotta get a milkshake. Well, forgetting the pastrami, we gotta put cheese on it. And then I just have never, I've always been focused, but never quite the same.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Do you feel like you're having, you're in the zone right now, podcast? I don't want to jinx it like a perfect game, but you've been in the zone.

• 1:22:25Bill Simmons?

  You've been fucking hot lately, dude.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  There's been good stuff to talk about.

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  Fantasy, the thing fantasy and I have coming up in a second, we do the 21 best sports movies of the 21st century is just good topic.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Be pretty good.

• 1:22:38Bill Simmons?

  Good content, a lot of good stuff.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  I'm gonna listen.

• 1:22:40Bill Simmons?

  2026 football playoffs, the basketball's been great. We got Winter Olympics. I care about the hockey.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49Bill Simmons?

  Have you, have you been following the rosters?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, Adam Fox, my guy from the Rangers did not get put on Team USA.

• 1:22:55Bill Simmons?

  They left off Connor Bedard on Team Canada.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Shocking, wow.

• 1:23:00Bill Simmons?

  For like 100 points.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Poor Connor, what did he do?

• 1:23:03Bill Simmons?

  Marshand's on there, but it's like hockey's gonna be incredible. Then we got World Cup. We got basketball playoffs.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  World Cup's gotta be insane.

• 1:23:11Bill Simmons?

  With WNBA lockout, hopefully they'll fix it. No, it's like that we'll have like labor stuff to talk about. It's this year's gonna have everything. Plus Lamar Jackson, gonna be traded to the Falcons.

• 1:23:25Bill Simmons?

  Drake May going for a second MVP.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Kirk Signetti, the coach of the Giants.

• 1:23:29Bill Simmons?

  Have you talked to House at all about how the Wizards passed up Cedric Coward and take Trey Johnson?

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Don't do that. That's not appropriate. And Derek Queen, Derek Queen was available.

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  Was he? Literally grew up in the DMV.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Should've taken Danny Wolf, my guy on the Nets, my favorite player in the league.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  I like. Got trash talked by Jimmy Butler. Called him white boy over and over again.

• 1:23:53Bill Simmons?

  What did he do?

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  I mean, that's literally true. How's that an insult?

• 1:23:57Bill Simmons?

  The Nets are like in a panic trying to trade Michael Porter right now because he's ruining their draft pick. Yeah, he's too good to be in the Nets. So he's had a career renaissance. All right, guys. Happy New Year.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  Happy New Year.

• 1:24:09Bill Simmons?

  Great to see you.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  What a way to start 26.

• 1:24:11Bill Simmons?

  We win all of our bets. Shanks, maybe for the playoffs, maybe you could just pop on.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  I would love to. Hey, you know me. I am a, I'm a total glutton for the punishment I get online when I come on this podcast. Every time I name drop, I cannot wait to join.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  Sneaky Pete.

• 1:24:28Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, guys. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun.

• 1:25:13Bill Simmons?

  One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. All right, recording this on New Year's Day. We just finished the first quarter of the century. Sean Fantasies here pops on the rewatchables from time to time, pops on this podcast from time to time. Host The Big Picture just did his 25 best movies of the 21st century. Always complicated with the 2000. 2000 doesn't count. It's not part of the century. People get mad about that, but it's just not the case.

• 1:25:45Speaker 03

  Well, you know, we did a pod on the rewatchables as well for your favorite, your most rewatchable movies of the century. And you shared that rule, but then you did pick Proof of Life.

• 1:25:55Bill Simmons?

  And I fucked up. I thought it came out in like 2003.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  It was December of 2000, so it was right at the cutoff line.

• 1:26:02Bill Simmons?

  No, I would have bumped it. Well, Zodiac can go right in that spot because we forgot to put in Zodiac. So you had Social Network at number one, which is what I was figuring because we've talked about that movie a lot over the years. But you had, if you consulted me, which you didn't, you did the one filmmaker. One filmmaker movie for the list, I'd say you couldn't get two. So what was the big regret of did anyone qualify for they should have had two movies on the list? If you were doing it, if you had a two movie rule.

• 1:26:32Speaker 03

  I think part of the reason we did that was because I was, I personally would have put like five PTA movies on there. And if you, if I was being honest about what were my favorite movies, you know, PTA, Fincher, Tarantino, you know, like Nolan, Wes Anderson, there's like a handful of people for Amanda, Sofia Coppola, who like our favorite filmmakers comprised like a lot of our favorite movies. So we did the one filmmaker thing, you know, as with all Ringer projects, Universal. No, Universal acclaim. We've been told we're the greatest podcasters of all time. Everyone's really proud of our work. And yeah, we're being celebrated today at the Rose Parade. We were on a float. I don't know if you saw a 25 for 25 float and they were really cheering us on like, big picture, big pictures. It was great.

• 1:27:16Bill Simmons?

  Congratulations. Everybody just really appreciates these lists and they don't get mad at all.

• 1:27:21Speaker 03

  They do, they do.

• 1:27:22Bill Simmons?

  People are really mad at a couple of things that my most, even though I explained the premise over and over again in the beginning, and people are still furious that movies like just go with it and a lot like Love are on there. Limitless, I stand by it at number 16, even though it drew uproarious laughter from both you and Chris.

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  In the moment, it was extremely funny because you were naming, you were naming a lot of movies that we know you love that are like sentimental favorites. And then you were also naming all time classics, you know, Dark Knight. And so yeah, Limitless is in that weird nether zone of just like Bill, it's 3:30 on a Tuesday afternoon and he just puts on TNT and Limitless is there and it's like a warm bath for you, you know?

• 1:28:04Bill Simmons?

  There it is. Yeah, he just started taking the pills. I'm waiting for basketball to come on. I'm ready to roll. One thing I was thinking with the, with the, with the century from like, not a rewatchable standpoint, but from a best movie standpoint. I feel like five movies are kind of, anyone can have their own list. The one that surprised me that wasn't on your list was Brokeback. Cause I felt like the five movies from the first quarter that I just feel like would be on most people's lists are Social Network, Dark Knight, There Will Be Blood, No Country, and Brokeback. And then everyone else's list is probably going to look different, but I feel like most lists would have that.

• 1:28:43Bill Simmons?

  Those were the five for me that I think as I thought back, and then you start getting into like the spotlight Zodiac Oppenheimer. Then it becomes a little more personal preference. But then it really, Social Network, Dark Knight, and There Will Be Blood are probably the three. Cause I think There Will Be Blood had the, as you talked about on the pod, it has the best performance of the 21st century. And then Social Network is kind of culturally maybe the most significant. And then Dark Knight is the most ambitious from IP.

• 1:29:11Speaker 03

  We, we kind of blinked at the last minute and flipped Dark Knight for Oppenheimer because of the one director rule. But I think that they were like neck and neck the whole time.

• 1:29:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:20Speaker 03

  We didn't do Brokeback. I, I kind of psyched myself out on that one because I, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the other Ang Lee movie. And they're like 50 50 to me. Like those are two really big movies for me. And, you know, Amanda and I didn't really get too deep into that conversation, but, um, you know, like you guys just did Brokeback on the pod. And that's just like a, a classic movie. It's just an amazing film. So I don't know, it's tough. You're right that there's some films that feel like totally canonical, but also we're in our own bubbles, right? Like we're in our own, like to me, the social network, the age that I am, the people who were involved in it, what it meant to like, what my career was going to become are all, feels so important. Other people see that movie and they're like, this is like a biopic about a dickhead. It's not that important. You know, it is what it is.

• 1:30:03Bill Simmons?

  No, that's the Steve Cohen story.

• 1:30:05Speaker 03

  Hey, hey, hey, hey, we don't know that yet. We don't know that yet.

• 1:30:10Bill Simmons?

  Positive yet.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  Let's see if Kyle Tucker or Cody Bellinger comes to New York, then we can say that.

• 1:30:15Bill Simmons?

  I think one of the things when I think of best movies, it's a combination of was this a great movie, but also could this reach a bunch of people, I think is the sweet spot, which is why Social Network was so interesting because it was such an awesome movie, but it also could appeal to almost everybody and was also rewatchable. Like it checked like every and it was well acted and it was perfectly written and perfectly executed. And it just, I mean, it was one of the first rewatchables we did. I think we did that in the first year.

• 1:30:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was. I think, yeah, it was a huge hit. It made like $250 million and it was at a time, it's only 15 years ago, but that feels unusual for like a docudrama to make that much money. And the rewatchable thing, we felt that immediately going back for this project because the second I put it on, I was locked in, like just put my phone in the other room.

• 1:31:02Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:03Speaker 03

  Just totally focused on it and engaged, even though I've seen it dozens of times. So, but that's a hard needle to thread. The like, this is a great and important film that is also fun is really challenging.

• 1:31:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz I thought Phantom Thread was great, but I don't think it has the same legs cuz I don't think it was for everybody. It's kind of a weird rewatchable movie, but it's like just impeccable. It's impeccably done. It's, it's perfectly acted. It's really unique and original. There's no movie like it, but it kind of got lost as the years passed.

• 1:31:32Speaker 03

  But you think just go with it, just like inches above it, right?

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  It's a family movie, you know? You'll be watching it with your kid. How old's your kid now?

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  She's four.

• 1:31:40Bill Simmons?

  Almost five?

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  She's four and a half.

• 1:31:42Bill Simmons?

  Eight, seven? Watch what happens. And Dana Day Lewis, actor of the first part, first quarter of the century?

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 1:31:50Bill Simmons?

  Is he the number one? I think he is, right?

• 1:31:52Speaker 03

  I think, who do you think is the star of the century? I guess the easy answer is Leo, but we were, we talked about that a bit too. Like Denzel has a case, Cruise has a case, you know, Damon, there's a couple of people who had like incredible 25 years.

• 1:32:04Bill Simmons?

  I would say. Yes, Streep had, you'd probably have to break it down with Oscar nominations, box office batting average, I think would be big. So it's probably Leo from a batting average standpoint.

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 1:32:18Bill Simmons?

  Every single movie that he put out either made money, had an audience, was done, well done with a good director. He didn't have a lot of like those clunkers. Like that Jennifer Lawrence, what was that Jennifer Lawrence Darren Aronofsky movie, Mother?

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  Mother.

• 1:32:34Bill Simmons?

  What was it called?

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:32:34Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't have like a mother in the 25 years. It's just like all either bangers or really interesting choices or like Shutter Island. There's no, there's no like weirdo movie for him. Everything had some purpose.

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  They all made a lot of money too. I mean, even like Revolutionary Road is probably the smallest movie he made this century. And it's still, I think it's still made like 80 million dollars or something. Cause it was a reunion with Kate Winslet after Titanic. So yeah, I think he's probably the biggest for the future. I mean, it's Timmy's time, man. It's happening.

• 1:33:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's happening. I mean, he's awesome in that movie.

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:06Bill Simmons?

  Which you just covered. Movies are hit. People, people like great performances.

• 1:33:10Speaker 03

  They do.

• 1:33:10Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking for actress, it's, it's probably Streep and Kate Winslet and Emma Stone are probably the three that would be in the combo from success, box office, number of good projects they were in. But I, but they all kind of had different errors. It was almost like basketball. Like whereas Leo was like all the way through remained about as relevant and never kind of lost it.

• 1:33:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, none of them, none of those three were like consistent box office killers. Like we did a Kate Blanchett episode at the, I think earlier this year. And it's like, she's made a ton of movies, most of which most people haven't seen. But when she's good, like when Tara comes along, right? You're like, well, this is clearly the best actor in the universe when that movie happened.

• 1:33:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  But she picks a lot of artistic projects and smaller films. So it's a lot harder to say on the actress side.

• 1:34:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, you're here to talk about sports movies with me. I love sports movies. I wrote about them a lot when I, when my fingers worked, when I was at Page Two and even at Greenland.

• 1:34:13Bill Simmons?

  Was what, it was part of my, when I was trying to figure out what my column would be. For page two in 2001, trying to figure out how do I be a national columnist? Cause there was really like no roadmap for it. And it was like, well, I'll do, do culture stuff. I'll do running diaries. I'll do, I'll talk about fantasy football, talk a lot about pop culture, but, and then sports movies. I'm going to try, I'm going to try to be like Roger Ebert every time there's a sports movie. I was, I did reviews of like summer catch, like terrible movies.

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  I remember, man, I was reading them. I was reading them and I was like, no one else is writing about these movies in more than 250 word capsule reviews. Yeah.

• 1:34:45Bill Simmons?

  But then occasionally there's some really good ones and obviously developed a lot of opinions. It's something I care about, something we cover a ton on the rewatchables. We've now done all four Rockies, AMC Rocky marathon on tomorrow, by the way. So I asked you to come on, I sent you the alphabetical version of my 21 best movies of the 21st century, which goes from 2001 to 2025. You do not know what the actual order is, but I wanted you at least be a little prepared. And some caveats here, this is not like, the rewatchables list was like, these are just the movies I saw the most. I have no explanation for it. Some of them have to do with my family, my wife, just what was on, what is, what are like comfort movies? It's, that's a different list. These are just the best sports movies in my opinion.

• 1:35:29Bill Simmons?

  So ineligible, all the 2000 movies, which include Love and Basketball, Remember the Titans, The Replacements, Bring It On, and 61, which is a really good, really good HBO movie that I'm throwing in there, directed by Billy Crystal. All right, honorable mention.

• 1:35:49Bill Simmons?

  And you, stop me if any of these were like, whoa, he didn't put this on, what the fuck? Sea Biscuit, Million Dollar Baby.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  Keep going.

• 1:36:01Bill Simmons?

  I, I kinda hate Million Dollar Baby.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  I don't really like it either.

• 1:36:04Bill Simmons?

  I know it did well in the Oscars, but I just can't believe people weren't more upset about the last 15 minutes. It's just so dark and awful.

• 1:36:10Speaker 03

  It is very well made, but it is, it's impossible to get away from that feeling that you had when she just falls and hits the ring chair and I.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  Breaks her neck?

• 1:36:21Speaker 03

  You're just like, what the fuck, Clint?

• 1:36:23Bill Simmons?

  And then she, then she's in tubes for 10 minutes and then she suffocates her to death. Spoiler alert, I don't care, came out 20 years ago. It's the most depressing movie I think anyone's ever made about sports.

• 1:36:35Speaker 03

  It is a very weird movie. And so it was a very weird movie in the time I remember specifically because it came out really late in the year. And it didn't play fall festivals or anything and it came out around Christmas and it was a big hit, right? It did really well and it was like, you gotta see it, you gotta see it. And so it kind of like came in really late in the Oscars door. But now it's like it lives forever as the best picture winner from that year. And I think Clint won best director that year, too. And it's, you know, it's, it's like a fine sports drama with a like a painful twist.

• 1:37:04Bill Simmons?

  If we ever do five year Oscars, that's one of the first ones we have to redo. We've always talked about five, the five year rule for Oscars. That's one where I just don't think that one wins again. And there were other good ones that year, right? The, what did it win, oh, four? It was the oh, five ceremony for oh, four.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  I think that's right, right? Is it right after Lord of the Rings? Yeah, so it's, I mean, this is not the greatest year in the world. It's the Aviator finding Neverland, Ray and Sideways were the other nominees.

• 1:37:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, now if you did that again, Sideways wins.

• 1:37:34Speaker 03

  Sideways would win.

• 1:37:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, okay. Keeping going here. Bend it like Beckham, which I don't know if you've reseen and it's, it's a good movie. It was, it came in a time where there weren't a lot of girls' sports movies. It's a movie I've watched with my daughter. It's soccer movie. It just has some major sports flaws. The, the lead of the movie, not Karen Knightley, the other one is just not good at soccer.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  Parminder Nagra, yeah.

• 1:37:58Bill Simmons?

  It just jumps out in every scene and they have to do these cuts. And it's like, almost like when they have like a Lifetime TV movie or like a bad cable movie or something. And there's like a high school soccer scene and it's like they have to like cut it together because none of the actors. I just have never gone over it and I couldn't put it on the list. Goon is a movie I like, but I've only seen once. And has like, has a huge fan base. They made a sequel. It's fine. I think it, it out punched its cover, outkicked its coverage.

• 1:38:28Speaker 03

  I think you underrated this one. I've told you this before. I think this is, this is the one on your honorable mentions that I'm like, this is the one that I think is real. And I'm not even a hockey guy, as you know, but I think it's really funny and really like involving. I think it's good.

• 1:38:40Bill Simmons?

  I think you're right. I already have regrets.

• 1:38:42Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:38:43Bill Simmons?

  Coach Carter, a movie I've seen at least five times. It's a half hour too long. I really enjoy it though. It's a best high school basketball movie. Sam Jackson, if it's on, it kind of gets sucked in. Big fan is the one with Patton Oswalt as like a crazed. Was he an Eagles fan?

• 1:38:58Speaker 03

  No Giants.

• 1:38:59Bill Simmons?

  Giants fan who hated the Eagles. I like that movie. It's dark. Invincible with Mark Wahlberg, just throwing it on because it's got a bonkers Elizabeth Banks performance. She's just lights out in that movie. She's playing like a Philly blonde bartender. It's definitely a captain on the Chris Ryan, throw your life away All-Stars.

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  I don't think I've seen this movie. I think I just saw Mark Wahlberg as a Philadelphia Eagle and I was like, I would sooner drown myself. Like there's no chance I'm watching this.

• 1:39:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's one of those based on a true stories and it ends with him blocking a punt and running in for a touchdown, which I'm positive didn't happen.

• 1:39:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:39:33Bill Simmons?

  So yeah, it's one of those. Wanted to mention The Hammer with Adam Carolla.

• 1:39:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:37Bill Simmons?

  My friend Hetch, but that movie's good. Go check it out if it's ever on cable. Carolla plays a boxer.

• 1:39:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a boxing movie.

• 1:39:43Bill Simmons?

  That's a very fun movie. It's a good one. The Blind Side, which has a great Sandra Bullock performance, is a ridiculous movie and is now, when we do on the rewatchables dramas that have turned into comedies month, I think The Blind Side will be on it, but I've seen it multiple times.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  I seem to recall thinking it was pretty funny the day it came out, but that's just me.

• 1:40:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Win-win. Paul Giamatti.

• 1:40:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, quality wrestling.

• 1:40:05Bill Simmons?

  High school wrestling movie. Yeah. Not quite enough wrestling in it, but I like this movie. The Fire Inside, which is a recent boxing movie that we both liked.

• 1:40:13Speaker 03

  A little underrated, I think. It kind of came and went around Christmas last year, but if people haven't seen it, it's a pretty good film.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think it's worth watching. Finding Forrester, I guess technically is a basketball movie.

• 1:40:23Speaker 03

  You're the man now, Bill.

• 1:40:25Bill Simmons?

  Another drama that's now a comedy, but is a surprisingly fun rewatch. And then last one, Gridiron Gang.

• 1:40:34Bill Simmons?

  Which, you know, I wrote a column when it came out about this is just what Hollywood's giving us now and comparing Gridiron Gang and The Wire. Like Hollywood wants to give us this. Meanwhile, over here is The Wire. Please watch The Wire and not this. But it's still a solid movie. Anyway, toughest cuts. I have five. Ford versus Ferrari. Where do we stand on this movie now? It came out a few years ago.

• 1:40:53Speaker 03

  It's elite and it's shocking that it's not in your list.

• 1:40:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I haven't spent enough time with it yet and it probably should be on the list.

• 1:40:59Speaker 03

  It's extremely good. Now, I know that there are other racing movies that we have to consider for your list. And it would be weird to put like several motorsports films on a list for

• 1:41:10Bill Simmons?

  That was part of my thinking.

• 1:41:11Speaker 03

  You're not a motorsports guy, right? Like it's obviously gotten a lot more popular given the rise.

• 1:41:15Bill Simmons?

  We talked about this in the F1 rewatchables. I'm not a F1 or motorsports anything guy, but I love the movies about those sports. Always deliver. They, I think they have the highest batting average of any sport.

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  And they, they were also really like an interesting portal for movies in the 60s and 70s too, right? Like there was like Winning and Grand Prix and Bobby Deerfield. Like there were, there were great star part movies. Ford, Ford versus Ferrari is a double star part. It's Bale and Damon, both in like the disguise at the center of this movie. I think it's really, really good. You should check it out again.

• 1:41:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like I almost had it. I, I kept moving stuff around. If I did a top 25, it would have been on there. Two for the money probably wouldn't have made it either way. But from a rewatchable comedy gambling standpoint, we just did it on rewatchables. It's hilarious. It's the definition of a sports movie. It's just turn your brain off and go for an hour and a half. That's sometimes what you want. So next one, Borg versus McEnroe with Shia LaBeouf as, as McEnroe. I don't know if you've seen this one.

• 1:42:19Speaker 03

  I have, I have.

• 1:42:20Bill Simmons?

  It's kind of excellent. I don't know how rewatchable it is because it's almost like you'd wonder like with the documentary of this, it'd just have been better. But I think it's really well done.

• 1:42:30Speaker 03

  Oh, I know you have a really big relationship to tennis from this time too. So I wonder if like the amount that you know about the matches and their rivalry and the, the way that that all played out. Who played Borg? Was it a Swedish actor?

• 1:42:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing it and thinking it was fine, but that's interesting that you, you had a hard time cutting that one.

• 1:42:49Bill Simmons?

  Hustle, Adam Sandler, The Sandman.

• 1:42:52Speaker 03

  Quality. Good movie.

• 1:42:53Bill Simmons?

  I just liked it. Anthony Edwards is great.

• 1:42:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Bill Simmons?

  I haven't spent enough time with it. There's a chance like five years from now it might move into the top 21, but for now it's on toughest cuts. And then Blades of Glory was another one that I think, I have a couple of other comedies over it. I didn't want to have too many comedies, but that was a tough one for me. A movie you like, I think.

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  I do. There's a trilogy of Will Ferrell sports comedies from the two, from the 21st century. And you got to kind of, everybody has their favorites, but I think there's one that is superior.

• 1:43:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I probably could have thrown Semi Pro an honorable mention. I'm going to do that right now, even though we've already done that part of the podcast.

• 1:43:29Speaker 03

  I think it's the least of the three.

• 1:43:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's still watchable though.

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  It's fun. Yeah.

• 1:43:33Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, it's, it goes sideways a few times. I have some casting questions. It's right in that hard, how hard can we go for the hard R era where it's kind of like they might've been better off just going PG 13. Ferrell's really funny in it, but it feels like at that point, he was playing the same character in a lot of different movies. And it was, it just, I don't know. Maybe it's aged better for some people. Okay. We're going to take, go ahead.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  Do you, do you want me to share any other that you left off? Or do you want to wait till we get to the end?

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, let's do that now. Cause then, then we can take a break. Let me, let me give you your fantasies left off list. Let's go.

• 1:44:09Speaker 03

  Uh, The Iron Claw?

• 1:44:13Speaker 03

  Now, I know you have some issues with it.

• 1:44:16Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:44:16Speaker 03

  But I think if you pulled the, the universe

• 1:44:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:19Speaker 03

  of recent sports movies, that would be pretty high. Um, I was a very big fan of it. I'm not, it's not perfect, but I thought it was very effective.

• 1:44:30Bill Simmons?

  So I thought it was well done. I had just huge issues with how they bent the facts. I don't, I thought they went, leaned way too hard and this is a true story. And then just completely left shit out to the point that I was enraged as somebody who actually knew the story that they were doing. And I could never get over the guy from the Bears, Kerry Von Erich. I thought that was one of the craziest casting decisions of all time.

• 1:44:56Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, it's just, just bonkers. It's like if we were doing the Victor Wembanyama story and we cast somebody who was like 5'11". It's like, what are we doing? Carey Benner's whole thing was he was this larger than life, kick ass dude who could go against Hogan and whoever. And then cast the guy from the bear. It's just unbelievable that they did that. I'll never get over that.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  And Jeremiah White is like roughly 5'5". He is not a tall man.

• 1:45:19Bill Simmons?

  He was too short to be Bruce Springsteen, much less Carey Benner. Good actor. But come on. What are we doing?

• 1:45:26Speaker 03

  I think if you remove, you know, your, your intellectual relationship to that wrestling history, then the movie maybe works better for you.

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  Didn't they merge together two deaths into one death? That was another one. There was an extra brother. They just got rid of-

• 1:45:40Speaker 03

  They just cut one death out. I mean, that's just how crazy that story is, though. They just completely left one brother, an entire brother out of the movie who also died. I don't know. I was like absolutely hammered by that movie.

• 1:45:50Bill Simmons?

  That's why I was left off. All right. Keep going.

• 1:45:53Speaker 03

  There were, there were two, well, okay, one, I know you hate this movie, but I would a million percent put Challengers on. I think Challengers is great. I know you and Wesley tore it apart.

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't stand it.

• 1:46:03Speaker 03

  I never thought you would put it on your list, but for me, I think that's a really great, I thought that was like an interesting, modern take on a sports movie. It was like, this is, we're moving the ball forward. You know, it's like broadcast news, but in tennis. That was how I saw that movie.

• 1:46:16Bill Simmons?

  I thought the ending was maybe the worst ending of any sports movie I've ever seen. Also, I mean, to be fair, a couple of years later, Challengers walked so Heated Rivalry could run.

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  There's a lot going on there. There's definitely some continuation in terms of, I haven't really gotten it. I only watched the first episode of Heated Rivalry. I gotta keep going on that.

• 1:46:32Bill Simmons?

  I've skipped it, but my wife, my hungover New Year's Day wife is currently ripping through it right now. And I think is, I don't know if she showered yet. Anyway, keep going.

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  And then there's two from this year.

• 1:46:43Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  One, I don't know if you've seen yet, is called Ephes, which is a movie about like a rec league baseball team, which is a really solid movie, an indie film that came out, directed by Carson Lund, which I liked quite a bit. And it's kind of making a lot of the year on list for the movie fans.

• 1:46:59Bill Simmons?

  I was okay with it. I liked it. I didn't love it. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood for it, but-

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  It's more of a hang. It's not like a propulsive narrative movie. And then Marty Supreme.

• 1:47:10Bill Simmons?

  Oh, fuck, you're right.

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  I mean, is this not the best sports movie since what? Like, you know, it's, I know you have another, a few more recent films that we will talk about.

• 1:47:21Bill Simmons?

  No, you're right. Marty Supreme should be on here. Oh, you screwed me up. I was going through, I had all these lists forever and I forgot to add the one that came out on December 25th. You're right. It got it under the wire.

• 1:47:34Speaker 03

  It's pretty good. I mean, I think it's a very effective sports movie, too, because when, when you're engaged in the sports movie aspect of it, the ping pong matches, that to me feels like watching a Rocky when I was a kid.

• 1:47:46Bill Simmons?

  All right. You know, I'm gonna have, I have some bad news for one of the top 21s.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  You're gonna cut one?

• 1:47:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I gotta put Marty Supreme in. It's such a good call. I can't believe I missed that. I'm glad we're doing this in real time. Listen, we're not perfect. Everyone, everyone makes mistakes.

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 1:48:02Bill Simmons?

  Admitting your mistakes and moving forward are some of the best things you do. Marty Supreme came out on Christmas Day 2025. It should be on the list.

• 1:48:09Speaker 03

  This is why I'm here on the pod, just to say this shit.

• 1:48:13Bill Simmons?

  Well, Draft Day, I'm sorry.

• 1:48:15Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 1:48:16Bill Simmons?

  Draft Day, it would have been funnier to cut Miracle because it could have been like the Ralph Cox thing. It's just like, wait, I thought I was going to the Olympics. Draft Day sadly is gonna have to get cut. A movie that probably shouldn't have been in the top 21 to begin with, but is so enjoyable, has, Costner's last great sports movie. It's got Chadwick Boseman playing out, playing, what's he playing, Alvin Mack? I can't remember the name of the linebacker.

• 1:48:42Speaker 03

  It's Von Te Mac.

• 1:48:43Bill Simmons?

  Von Te Mack.

• 1:48:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Bill Simmons?

  It's got Jennifer Garner inexplicably as like as owner's daughter, love it. I can't even remember that. But I like that movie and I've watched it a bunch of times. It's not good, though, and I'm happy cutting it out.

• 1:48:55Speaker 03

  I think it's absolutely terrible, but it's kind of enjoyable to watch.

• 1:48:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:58Speaker 03

  Late period Ivan Reitman.

• 1:49:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, now it's out. Okay, we're gonna take a break.

• 1:49:02Speaker 03

  Hold on, I have to ask you an important question before you go to the break. Why 21 movies?

• 1:49:07Bill Simmons?

  Because 21st century, 21 for 21.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:49:13Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 1:49:14Speaker 03

  So one for each century?

• 1:49:16Bill Simmons?

  I can cut one more and just make it a top 20. You wanna do that?

• 1:49:20Speaker 03

  It's your list. I'm just, I'm just asking questions.

• 1:49:22Bill Simmons?

  There was a reason why I did the 21, because I wanted to do a pyramid graphic. For my sports movie pyramid.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 1:49:30Bill Simmons?

  And it was one, two, three, four, five, six, and it was 21 movies. I thought that looked better.

• 1:49:37Speaker 03

  It all makes sense now.

• 1:49:38Bill Simmons?

  Okay, we'll take a break and do the top 21. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring

• 1:50:23Bill Simmons?

  Giancarlo Esposito, Tadiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Now playing in theaters nationwide. All right, the top 21 with some important help from Sean Fantasy, who reminded me that Marty Supreme was eligible. So Draft Day sadly got bounced, as did all the 2000s movies. We just went through all the honorable mentions. Coming in at number 21, Dodgeball. A movie we've done on the rewatchables. I was not on the episode. We let the Fantasy Boys handle that one. Very funny movie. I think culturally it's had some, it's, it's had a nice tale. People like the, the stiller piece in this and it's, it just feels like

• 1:51:07Bill Simmons?

  it's lived on. It's always on, it's always on a streaming service or on cable and it's just had a nice shelf life.

• 1:51:13Speaker 03

  It's, it's Bill Simmons history core as well with the Ocho joke, you know, I feel like it's, you know, connected to your mythology. And, you know, for me, Pete Bateman, you know, some people might say Ozark, Arrested Development. Bateman is elite in that movie.

• 1:51:28Bill Simmons?

  I remember writing a column about it. I didn't like it as much the first time as I did probably the fifth time, but I remember writing a column about it. And I saw it in Hollywood and it felt like everybody was high. People were just dying laughing. But as the years have passed, I've kind of get it. All right. So that's 21. Number 20 is The Fighter.

• 1:51:50Bill Simmons?

  Came out in 2010. It's a, it was a boxing passion project movie, which it seems like every male actor has had, except Leo and maybe one other one in the last 30 years.

• 1:52:00Speaker 03

  The Rock had one this year.

• 1:52:03Bill Simmons?

  Christian Bale, Mark Wahlberg, your girl, Amy Adams.

• 1:52:07Speaker 03

  She's fine in this movie.

• 1:52:09Bill Simmons?

  She's great. I think this is probably the, my favorite Amy Adams movie. Deep Massachusetts, set in Lowell. You know, we have like the deep south. This is like Massachusetts Lowell is like deep Massachusetts. Like you're just, everyone's got an accent.

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:52:24Bill Simmons?

  Everyone has the, you think you're better than me look to them. And they do a really good job of just hitting Massachusetts in the right way. This is, this is when it shifted in the last 15 years of if you're going to make a movie in Massachusetts, use some locals, make sure your actors really know how to sound like they're from Massachusetts and act like it. And this is part of the Renaissance, Sean.

• 1:52:46Speaker 03

  I have two questions about this movie for you. One, do you think Bale passes the Massachusetts test?

• 1:52:52Bill Simmons?

  He's good. I mean, he lost, what he, this was another one where he lost a lot of weight.

• 1:52:56Speaker 03

  He did. He did.

• 1:52:57Bill Simmons?

  Cause he's a play dickie. Playing a drug dude. The, the big issue for me with this movie, and I, I watched it in the last year, is I, they never really messed with the Gotti Ward trilogy in it, which I never understood. Just felt like the easiest IP. I remember seeing it for the first time, being so confused that they never dove in there. But it's, this is a very well acted, well done sports movie. And probably this might be David O. Russell's last good movie.

• 1:53:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:53:23Bill Simmons?

  Possible. It's been a fucking drought for him.

• 1:53:25Speaker 03

  I'm way more down on this movie than you are. This is like, to me, well, let me ask you this. If the movie was set in Boise, Idaho, instead of Lowell, Massachusetts, would you like it?

• 1:53:36Bill Simmons?

  So it's a fair question. I think when it came out, it was very well received.

• 1:53:41Speaker 03

  It was. It was. Oscar nominations. It was a hit.

• 1:53:44Bill Simmons?

  I think the acting is so good. I don't think you could have a list like this and leave this movie out. End Million Dollar Baby. I feel like I had to have one.

• 1:53:51Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:53:51Bill Simmons?

  So that's why I had a 20.

• 1:53:53Speaker 03

  You've got other boxing movies on here, though, that are better.

• 1:53:55Bill Simmons?

  I know, but this is like the prestige sports movie. We gotta, I feel like I had to pay tribute. That's fair. Uh, number 19, King Richard. This is a weird one because I think this movie has a completely different tale if the Will Smith Oscars thing doesn't happen. This was like his moment. Finally, it happened for him. And I think if, if he doesn't slap Chris Rock, this movie's just remembered differently. It's probably on TV more.

• 1:54:20Bill Simmons?

  It's just kinda gone.

• 1:54:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're right. There's not a lot of legacy around the movie itself. And there wasn't as much at the time because it came out during COVID and it was part of Project Popcorn and went straight to streaming and all that. I saw it at a film festival. I saw it at Telluride. And, you know, it was like rapturous. It was like, this is Will Smith's best performance. It's his time.

• 1:54:37Bill Simmons?

  The daughters were great. His wife's great. This movie's good.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I knew Ellis Taylor's great in this movie.

• 1:54:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Bill Simmons?

  I came out in the big picture and broke this down with you. They're really big picture stages. I don't remember, what was it, 2020?

• 1:54:50Speaker 03

  It was 20 or 21. I can't remember. Yeah.

• 1:54:52Bill Simmons?

  Somewhere in there.

• 1:54:52Speaker 03

  But, but between the slap and, and the fact that it was like a streaming movie, ultimately is what it kinda what it felt like. It feels smaller, but it's really, really well made.

• 1:55:03Bill Simmons?

  Number 18.

• 1:55:07Bill Simmons?

  Talladega Nights, The Legend of Ricky Bobby. Just a really good sports comedy.

• 1:55:13Speaker 03

  A little low, a little low for this?

• 1:55:15Bill Simmons?

  Might be a little low, except, uh,

• 1:55:18Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the stuff that's coming here, I don't know. This is hard. It's 21 years of sports movies. Sacha Baron Cohen's great in this movie.

• 1:55:27Bill Simmons?

  We haven't done it yet on rewatchables, but I think he would win the movie.

• 1:55:30Speaker 03

  I think you're right. Is he sponsored by Perrier?

• 1:55:34Bill Simmons?

  I think he is.

• 1:55:36Bill Simmons?

  He's really good. This movie's really fun and they did a nice job of actually diving into NASCAR and, you know, getting, using all the sponsors. NASCAR embraced it very smartly and it caught Will Ferrell and all these guys at the right time. It's just really good.

• 1:55:49Speaker 03

  How would you power rank Anchorman, Step Brothers and this movie?

• 1:55:54Bill Simmons?

  Exactly how you just said it.

• 1:55:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, me too.

• 1:55:57Bill Simmons?

  Next one, The Rookie.

• 1:56:00Bill Simmons?

  But that's number 17, a movie that's gotten a little lost in the shuffle. It was this stretch from maybe 97 to 2005, where we kind of had these adult Disney sports movies.

• 1:56:13Bill Simmons?

  And you kind of always knew what you were getting when you saw the poster and what star they picked. Some of them were good, some of them weren't as good. You would have your Glory Road with Josh Lucas, which was not good. You would have The Rookie with Dennis Quaid, which was excellent. I think this was, other than Miracle, probably the most successfully executed after I Remember the Titans, which I think crushed that blueprint the best. But not eligible for this list. But The Rookie, really good Dennis Quaid, he cements his legacy as sports movie Hall of Famer, first ballot, which I think he didn't even really need it, but he's like, fuck it.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  No, this is a really, really good performance based on a true story. And to your point, it's not just that this era of Disney original sports movies is over. It's like Disney doesn't even really make original movies anymore. Remember when they would pretty consistently, was this, was this released under Buena Vista or Touchstone? I can't remember what the sub-label was, but there was a time when you would get five or six movies a year like this from Disney. And now that's, that's also all straight to streaming.

• 1:57:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this was quite an era and they all made money. That's why they kept going and through Gridiron Gang and Invincible, they kept going for 10 years. They'd spend 15 on it, they'd make 30, they'd make 40. Sometimes like Blind Side would just crush, but you just had to make sure you got your one star, you had a good story. And you go through, I wrote a piece in 09 or 2000, maybe 2010 about, because you could feel sports movies starting to die. And we were moving to another era and I didn't know what was coming. But I was, I was wondering if documentaries were ruining sports movies in some ways that as documentaries were getting better, was that can be bad for sports movies? And I think the next 15 years kind of proved that, that that might've been true. We also might've run out of ideas is the other thing.

• 1:57:54Speaker 03

  Well, sports documentaries are getting shittier, so maybe we'll tip back to sports movies.

• 1:57:59Bill Simmons?

  That's, that's what we're hoping. Yeah, we've, there's no question, sports documentaries have gotten way worse.

• 1:58:04Speaker 03

  But continuing like our now decades long conversation about movie stars, this is something that like, there's not a lane for Glenn Powell or Austin Butler to make movies like this. You know, like Chadwick Boseman did get his sports movie, like a handful of these guys got their sports movies. But once you remove this from the menu for what you can do as a young star, like you lose, you lose something pretty significant.

• 1:58:27Bill Simmons?

  It's weird because they the blueprint they were still trying even in 2000s like Josh Lucas was like a lot of guys now it's like could he be a guy maybe here's and then he wasn't.

• 1:58:36Speaker 03

  No, he's a guy who is the voice of car commercials during football games.

• 1:58:41Bill Simmons?

  Right. We have a lot of Josh Lucases now. Seems like he's been in some good stuff. Next one, number 16, Air. The day the Michael Jordan shoe movie.

• 1:58:55Bill Simmons?

  Which he's not in directed by Affleck. It's a really, really good Matt Damon performance and my favorite part of this movie is the Viola Davis performance as Jordan's mom is just great and it's just this is this movie is a really fun hang.

• 1:59:09Speaker 03

  I.

• 1:59:10Bill Simmons?

  You didn't like it as much as I did.

• 1:59:11Speaker 03

  No, but I do like it. I don't think it's a bad pick here at all. I think it's really good. It is really more of a movie about the world of marketing more so than sports like athletics. It doesn't mean that it's not a sports movie because it clearly is because you kind of have to know what this milieu is to get the movie and get all its nuances. It's just it's like it kind of can't decide to me whether it wants to be really funny or really serious. And like Affleck's performance is hilarious as Phil Knight.

• 1:59:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  But it's kind of happening in a different movie than the rest of the movie where Matt Damon is giving this really sincere performance and Viola Davis is really sincere, but it is a fun watch.

• 1:59:50Bill Simmons?

  They it they did a good job of capturing the mid 80s even with the decorations in the office. I remember just appreciating stuff with that. You're right, Affleck won the Judd Nelson New Jack City Year in a Different Movie Award. Number 15, Hardball. A movie that was hilarious in the theater for all the wrong reasons when I saw it, I think with Jacko. Right after nine 11. It was one of those where it's like, let's go to the theater.

• 2:00:16Speaker 03

  It's one of the craziest things I've ever heard, Bill.

• 2:00:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, let's go to the theater. We're both pumped out.

• 2:00:23Bill Simmons?

  But uh, but this movie has aged perfectly and we already did a rewatch of those. G Baby's death, I think, is maybe the most iconic sports movie death of any of these movies.

• 2:00:34Speaker 03

  On this list?

• 2:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and any sports movie this century.

• 2:00:39Speaker 03

  Okay, not like Apollo Creed.

• 2:00:41Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 2:00:42Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 2:00:43Bill Simmons?

  No, Apollo dying.

• 2:00:44Speaker 03

  Brian Song, you know, there's a few.

• 2:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Although Apollo's death did lead to the end of the Cold War. So maybe he died, G Baby died for nothing.

• 2:00:52Speaker 03

  It's a really good point.

• 2:00:53Bill Simmons?

  At least had something good came out of it.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  What's more tragic, G Baby's death or the fall of the Berlin Wall?

• 2:00:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's dead even. This movie is very enjoyable. I also love, and I've seen it a few times and my kids like it. The Diane Lane just being in this movie is hilarious. She's just, she can't believe she's in the movie the entire time. You have no idea why she's attracted to Keanu. John Hawks is great as like a scumbag. Anyway, this is a good sports movie. Number 14, Ali, a movie we have not done on the rewatchables.

• 2:01:23Speaker 03

  It's a great movie.

• 2:01:25Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's on the rewatchables 2026 level. It's weird. It's a movie that could never decide what it was.

• 2:01:32Bill Simmons?

  It tries to basically

• 2:01:35Bill Simmons?

  hit why Ali was so important, but then it's compressing years together. It spends a lot of time of him trying to not being the champ. And, but then all of a sudden we skip through fights. But, you know, you weren't in two and a half hours. You couldn't cover everything. I think the first 10 minutes and the last 15 minutes of this movie are genuinely great.

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  I think there are several, you know, chill inducing moments throughout the movie. And it is man trying to do something a little different than what he usually does, which I really appreciate. I do, I have thought in the past that if man and Will Smith made a pact to make a new 90 minute Ali film every four years, you might have gotten.

• 2:02:15Bill Simmons?

  Like a boyhood thing?

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that you might've gotten like a slightly better version of this movie. Because there are times when it seems like Smith is too old. There are times when it seems like he's too young, like he's in incredible shape in the film, but he's also trying to capture somebody who's uncaptable, right? It's just like the Elvis movie where it's just like, you're not Elvis, man. Like it, like the icon of icon, that person who is so inimitable. But Smith is good. You've now got two Will Smith movies on your list, which is quite fascinating.

• 2:02:43Bill Simmons?

  You know, this came out in 2001. I was writing for Page Two at the time and wrote a big review about it. And it was Ali was still so fresh. I mean, he had been, the seventies were only two and a half decades earlier than that. So it was really tough for Will Smith to compete with that. But he did feel like Ali in a couple scenes. Like he had that one thing when he's yelling at the reporters and he just kind of becomes Ali. I think as the years have passed and we have less of a memory of Ali, or at least there's new generations that don't really remember him all. That's probably better for this movie. It's really good. And it's Michael Mann. And that's why it'll be on the rewatchables this year. Number 13, Damned United.

• 2:03:21Speaker 03

  Never seen it.

• 2:03:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Michael Sheen, just an awesome soccer movie. This would be my one if like you listen to anything on this list that you hadn't heard of. And you're like, what's that one? Let me mark that down. This one's great. It's like a rags to riches English soccer movie. A Chris Ryan favorite?

• 2:03:41Speaker 03

  I know. Yeah, I know. Among the soccer heads, it's a, it's a big movie. It's a, I have an allergy to the filmmaker Tom Hooper, who made The King's Speech and Les Mis and Cats. And this is, this is one of his movies.

• 2:03:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a very well done movie. Number 12, Everybody Wants Some. Your guy Linklater.

• 2:03:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:00Bill Simmons?

  We've not done this on rewatchables yet either. This is where we all bought Glenn Powell's stock. We had it for basically, when was this, 2016? We had it from the beginning of The Ringer. We were like Glenn Powell, circle him. Then he was in a rom com.

• 2:04:15Speaker 03

  Was it 14? I think it was 14. I think it was still in the Granlund days.

• 2:04:18Bill Simmons?

  Oh, one or the other. This movie's great. And, and, and it's weird, it's weirdly not a Dazed and Confused sequel, but kind of operates as a Dazed and Confused sequel.

• 2:04:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, no, you're right. It is 16. It's March of 16, right before we launched.

• 2:04:34Bill Simmons?

  High school to college, Dazed and Confused, high school, 1976. This is like around 79 to 80, I think. Really well cast. There's some really good people that went on to do some good things, including Zoe Deutsch. And I forget, the lead guy, I don't think, made it.

• 2:04:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, Blake Jenner, he was involved in some controversies.

• 2:04:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, this was the peak for him.

• 2:04:58Speaker 03

  Incredible Wyatt Russell in that movie. Wyatt Russell is outstanding as the like 33 year old guy trying to join the baseball team.

• 2:05:05Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This movie's great. The Wrestler number 11, used to be number 10 until Sean reminded me Marty Supreme is eligible. This was Mickey Rourke's big comeback movie. Aronofsky just killing it. It tapped into, if you liked wrestling at all, it hit this theme that was really important. And, uh, and I think hit way close to home for a lot of either dead wrestler families or wrestlers that were still alive or wrestlers that were in the business that were kind of headed for this. Rista Tomei is great in it, but this is just an excellent sports movie.

• 2:05:41Speaker 03

  I love this one, too. Part of the reason, I hold this movie against The Fighter a little bit, where I felt like it was kind of using a similar tone and approach, even though the stories are different, it's kind of felt like he was kind of glomming on to some of Aronofsky's style in this movie, but I really like it.

• 2:05:55Bill Simmons?

  Interesting.

• 2:05:56Speaker 03

  And Rourke is great. And Rourke, he never, you know, he worked again a little bit more, but it wasn't the massive comeback that we were promised. You know, he didn't make like 10 award winning films after this either. And it's kind of a great document. Also, you gotta think about the shape he got himself into for this movie at the age he was is crazy.

• 2:06:12Bill Simmons?

  The steroids, all that stuff. All right, we're into the top 10. Number 10, Miracle.

• 2:06:18Bill Simmons?

  We did this on the rewatchables as well. Great Kurt Russell, great Kurt Russell speeches. This also made the 50 most rewatchables list.

• 2:06:28Bill Simmons?

  I did not like the idea of them making this movie because this was the most important sports moment of my life, not in Boston.

• 2:06:37Bill Simmons?

  But I thought it held up and it's a, it's a fun one to watch with the, the kids or people who don't know what the story was. It just, it's an eternal movie. It'll, it'll be on 50 years from now.

• 2:06:46Speaker 03

  I thought this would be in your top five.

• 2:06:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It just had, I had some ones higher.

• 2:06:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:06:53Bill Simmons?

  Was it in your top five?

• 2:06:56Speaker 03

  No, but it's up there. I mean, it is like, it's kind of the platonic ideal of a movie that feels like it came out when you were 11, even though it didn't. You know what I mean? Like, it just gives you that, that feeling of like sports sentimentality, emotionality, where it kind of like just hits you when the moments happen. Kurt Russell's phenomenal in the movie, too. Yeah, I like it a lot.

• 2:07:18Bill Simmons?

  Sugar is my number nine. This movie is just awesome. I'm not even gonna tell people about it. They should just watch it.

• 2:07:25Speaker 03

  Baseball movie, baseball movie.

• 2:07:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a baseball movie and uh, there's never been a movie quite like it. And it feels like a documentary, but it's not.

• 2:07:36Bill Simmons?

  And it's, it's just a really unusual movie. It's really good. It's kinda, I kinda came and went. I don't even think it did that well.

• 2:07:45Speaker 03

  It was a small indie. I think it was a Sundance film. Um, I, you know, the same filmmakers who made Half Nelson and Mississippi Grind, another sports movie. They also made that movie too. Um, I think if you're a baseball fan and you see that there's just, you know, Latino players kind of dominate the sport now. And you don't necessarily think about the roads that they have to travel to get to Major League Baseball. It's a really good insight into what some of them have to experience.

• 2:08:18Bill Simmons?

  Number eight, Marty Supreme. Oh no, that's number nine, uh, number eight.

• 2:08:22Speaker 03

  Number eight. Nice. It's a good spot.

• 2:08:25Bill Simmons?

  Number eight, Marty Supreme.

• 2:08:26Speaker 03

  Was Draft Day at number eight?

• 2:08:28Bill Simmons?

  No, no, I bumped the wrestler from the top 10 for this.

• 2:08:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:08:32Bill Simmons?

  We'll see if it gets higher. Haven't spent enough time with it. I've only seen it once.

• 2:08:37Bill Simmons?

  It has this Chalamet performance that if you're looking at all the sports movies of this list, has to be in the running for a best one. And uh, all the actors, all the, the lead actors are pretty good. I, as I spend more time with this movie, I'm gonna know whether the supporting stuff and some of the, some of the gimmicky casting stuff. I wonder how I feel about it five years from now.

• 2:08:58Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:08:58Bill Simmons?

  It was fun the first time. Five years from now, I'm gonna be like, ah, why is this person in?

• 2:09:03Speaker 03

  I watched, I've seen it twice. Um, and it, all that stuff held up perfectly well to me because I think it just makes the movie feel a little bit more real. I will say to your point about it being a sports movie. So I lean watched it the other night and I was doing something else. But I told her, call me in during the two big ping pong matches. Cause I wanna watch them again. And the last one especially, I feel like is just a lot of fun and really affected at this sort of stuff that we're talking about.

• 2:09:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's one of those sports movie lessons in general. Where if you're gonna do it, you have to almost be a psycho about the sports scenes. And Safdie, you talked about it with him when you did the pod, like he's just a psycho about ping pong. Like really cared, really wanted to get every aspect of it right. And most of the movies that end up lasting as sports movies, they, they go the extra mile.

• 2:09:49Speaker 03

  They do.

• 2:09:50Bill Simmons?

  Not throwing shit together. That's why Bend It Like Beckham, which would have been on here if they had gotten the soccer stuff better, didn't make it.

• 2:09:57Bill Simmons?

  Anyway, go see Marty Supreme. Really good 2025, new IP out of nowhere movie.

• 2:10:03Speaker 03

  Do you think that with all this consolidation in Hollywood, there will be finally an opportunity for the sports consultancy business that you've been trying to develop?

• 2:10:13Bill Simmons?

  Been waiting forever. Waiting forever. They're just, nobody's come. Even this one, I was waiting to have like a ping pong nitpick, even though I don't know anything about ping pong, but I thought they handled everything really well.

• 2:10:23Speaker 03

  I have no, I don't know anything about ping pong. There may be like several guys on ping pong Reddit right now who are just like, Marty Supreme is bullshit.

• 2:10:30Bill Simmons?

  Nobody has that grip. Number seven Warrior did this on the rewatchables. It's weird that there haven't been more really great MMA movies. When you figure MMA is 30 years old now at this point, and we've had so many boxing movies and we're still coming out with boxing movies. And we're coming out with boxing movies with Sydney Sweeney as a boxer, and yet we've had barely any MMA movies. We had The Smashing Machine this year, which did not make this list and did not make honorable mention either.

• 2:11:01Speaker 03

  What about Never Back Down? That, was that in contention?

• 2:11:04Bill Simmons?

  Who's in that one?

• 2:11:06Speaker 03

  There've been like nine of them. The original one, who's in the first?

• 2:11:09Bill Simmons?

  Never Back Down sounds so familiar.

• 2:11:13Bill Simmons?

  Was that this century?

• 2:11:14Speaker 03

  Is it Sean Ferris? Is that the guy? Yeah, Sean, Jaimon Honsu's in it, Amber Heard. Remember this in 2008? There's also been like nine sequels. You've never seen these?

• 2:11:23Bill Simmons?

  I probably saw it once, but it did not, did not, in my prep, did not make it.

• 2:11:28Speaker 03

  They're kind of terrible, but they're, they're entertaining.

• 2:11:30Bill Simmons?

  Warrior has Tom Hardy and Joel Edgerton. We covered this when we did the rewatchables about it. And a really crazy Nick Nolte.

• 2:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Who's just a, just on the alcoholic scale is like a 10 out of 10, even for him, who's played alcoholics in other movies. Edgerton's really good and Edgerton's had one of those. He's like, like a Matthew Stafford type career where it's like, I just wish he'd been on more 11 and five and 12 and four teams. And then he's in Train Dreams, who's fucking incredible in that movie. And there's years where he might've won the Oscar for that. It's not going to be this year.

• 2:12:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:12:05Bill Simmons?

  He is fantastic. He picked the wrong year to have that movie.

• 2:12:09Speaker 03

  You know, he's a guy who I've always kind of had a little bit of like an issue connecting to. But I think in this movie and in Train Dreams, he's asked to do the same thing, which is like really taciturn, quiet. He doesn't have to give big emotional speeches. He doesn't have a lot of dialogue. It's all about his presence and him being like emotionally open, but not talking. This movie would be in my top three. This is one of my favorites. I think it's amazing. I think Gavin O'Connor is a great director.

• 2:12:34Bill Simmons?

  I had a lot of trouble with these last seven in the order. Just this was really like the cutoff for me. Number six, Rush. I probably like this movie the most.

• 2:12:43Speaker 03

  You do.

• 2:12:45Bill Simmons?

  Ron Howard. Chris Hemsworth. I think this is the best he's ever been.

• 2:12:52Bill Simmons?

  Daniel Bruhl. Still have his stock somewhere. I think it's in my closet. Always liked that guy.

• 2:12:58Speaker 03

  He's great. And Glorious Bastards, he's a great actor.

• 2:13:00Bill Simmons?

  I wrote a long, I think this might've been the last sports movie column I ever wrote was for, for Grantland and end of 2014. I wrote a long piece about this movie because I loved it and I really connected with it. But it's an F1 movie. It's a movie that I think has, because it's in the past, some of these movies are just like timeless. This one's set in the seventies and it's just, you can just go and go forever. I love this movie. I love this movie too. I know you don't like it as much. The Way Back.

• 2:13:30Speaker 03

  No, I, I like it. I'm on board with this. Same director as Warrior. I would prefer, I prefer Warrior to The Way Back, but it's really good. I know you love Affleck's performance in it.

• 2:13:41Bill Simmons?

  I love this movie. I love the choice that they make. If you haven't seen it, sorry, I'm spoiling it. That it feels like the big game is the ending and it's not. And it just goes, which is just such a zag. But it's, it's, I think this is the best Affleck's ever been in a movie.

• 2:14:01Speaker 03

  It's really interesting because I feel like, would you say that like addiction and recovery movies are something that you typically enjoy?

• 2:14:09Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 2:14:10Speaker 03

  I don't feel like I hear you talk about movies like that too often.

• 2:14:12Bill Simmons?

  No, I, there's something, I think part of the problem, just in a Gavin O'Connor movie, by the way, and it was written by Brad Inglesby. That's a pretty good combo.

• 2:14:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, your boy.

• 2:14:24Bill Simmons?

  Came out right after COVID started. It was supposed to come out in the movies, I think, a month after COVID. And then just became one of the first VOD test case when the infrastructure wasn't really ready for it. And it came and went a little bit, but I feel like it's having a moment again. It's always on, always on a streamer. It's on cable. It's around. And I think, I think one of the things I liked about this one, I liked sometimes in movies when the real life bleeds over into the character. And I feel like Affleck was having so many issues in his own life that it just feels like, it just feels like there was an overlap that made it an unusual watch in a good way.

• 2:15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love that feeling when you feel like there's like some reflection of the person's real life. That's like, that's a Marty Supreme thing, right? Where it's like, Shalhoub is trying to be the best. And then you can feel that in the movie. Affleck's never been nominated for an acting Oscar in his career. And even this movie-

• 2:15:17Bill Simmons?

  This one's outrageous. See, I mean, this is actually like, makes you wonder, is there like some sort of weird bias against certain actors and actresses?

• 2:15:24Speaker 03

  Well, even just dating, they dated it for March, you know, when it came out in the same month as COVID. And it wasn't taken seriously by the studio to make an awards push for it. Like if it had come out in October, maybe everybody might have thought about it a little bit differently. But yeah, it was, it's definitely overlooked.

• 2:15:40Bill Simmons?

  Yes, the best, this was Anthony Hopkins as the father, RZA Med and Son of Meadow, Bozeman, Gary Oldman and Mank, your movie, and Steve Un and Minari.

• 2:15:58Bill Simmons?

  F1 could have snuck in there, I feel like.

• 2:16:00Speaker 03

  I don't, I just don't understand that Anthony Hopkins win. Just like, you know, I think the father's so overrated. I've said this a million times. I know you liked it. I didn't get it at all.

• 2:16:09Bill Simmons?

  I only saw it once. I did like it. All right. Mount Rushmore, final four, 21st century. F1, just did on the rewatchables.

• 2:16:16Speaker 03

  You love this.

• 2:16:17Bill Simmons?

  I loved it. I loved it.

• 2:16:20Speaker 03

  You liked it more the second time.

• 2:16:22Bill Simmons?

  So I talked to my dad. My stepmother had to go to New York for a family thing. He was by himself two days ago. And he's like, I need to rent a movie tonight. And I was like, you should watch F1 again. He's like, I never saw F1. And I was like, I was like, what? You would love F1. How have you not seen F1? Oh, my God. I was so mad. So he saw it that night. We talked the next day and he was like, F1 was awesome. Like he, he was like, I thought you were kidding. It's just, you know, it's, it's, it could have been number three in my list, but I put it at four.

• 2:16:52Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm very pro. I liked it a lot. I think it's a great popcorn movie. I always think Joe Kaczynski is so creative at how he captures these worlds that he goes into. I will say, one of my challenges that I popped it in a couple of nights ago, the 4K, 4K looks fucking incredible, by the way. I popped it in and the, one of my challenges with the movie is it never really gets over the hump of the first 10 minutes for me. When he's in the NASCAR race and a whole lot of love is playing and the fireworks go off. The first time I saw it, I was like, holy shit. This is going to be the best movie of the year. Like this is, this is amazing what they're doing. And that, and that was NASCAR, it wasn't even F1 racing. So I never, because I never could get back up to my excitement around that stuff.

• 2:17:35Speaker 03

  And because I don't really know anything about F1, like I don't follow it at all. Yeah. I found myself a little, not disoriented because they narrate through every race, like what's actually happening. But I just didn't have as much connection to it. But there's no doubt it's like amazingly well made. And, you know, pit, just really flexing the movie star muscle in the movie.

• 2:17:53Bill Simmons?

  Important pit movie for the catalog, which we, we talked when we did the pod about it. Kind of needed it. This is one for the sixties. It was like his Tom Brady Tampa Bay Super Bowl. Yeah, I know meant a lot to you.

• 2:18:06Speaker 03

  Well, it did because then I got to say it wasn't Belichick. It was Brady, you know, then forevermore. I get to know that it wasn't Belichick.

• 2:18:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. All right. Number three, Friday Night Lights. Did this one on rewatch? We've done all these on rewatchables. Friday Night Lights, number three. I, we did it last year and I just forgot how awesome it was and also how overshadowed it became by the TV show. And actually, if the TV show never existed, this movie would be talked about even, even more reverentially. It's the best high school football movie, I think, ever. I don't even know who it's competing. It's All the Right Moves and stuff like that, but it's, it's, it's the best. It's got one of the two best locker room speeches ever. It's Billy Bob in this movie and, and Pacino and Ever Given Sunday are in the finals. It does a great

• 2:18:57Bill Simmons?

  zag at the end where they lose, but that's what happened in real life. And then the way it was cut in oh, three, where these fast cuts and it was like a little hard, but now it's like, that just fits into the way we watch everything these days. So it actually feels a little more current than it used to.

• 2:19:13Speaker 03

  Great cast. The rare like porting over Connie Britton from the movie to the TV show. Love to see that.

• 2:19:21Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking to you as I was watching The Family McMullen, you ignored my text about.

• 2:19:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I was busy. Sorry. I haven't gotten into it, but you know, I'm, I have, I'm like the biggest.

• 2:19:30Bill Simmons?

  You were like the number one Brothers McMullen guy.

• 2:19:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, Long Island Irish brothers who are like, hate each other, but love each other. Yeah.

• 2:19:37Bill Simmons?

  Surprisingly good movie. Couple of people didn't make the cut for the, I mean, John Mahoney is dead, but one of the other brothers just isn't in it.

• 2:19:45Speaker 03

  McGowan's there though.

• 2:19:46Bill Simmons?

  McGowan, but the, the third brother's not in it. They just kind of talk about him. It's like he's not in the room.

• 2:19:51Speaker 03

  Maybe I'll fire it up tonight. I don't know. Haven't seen Brothers McMullen sober in like 40 years.

• 2:19:57Bill Simmons?

  Connie's Connie was available and ready to come back. Great career for her. Number two. So I thought that I had the seven. I knew what they were.

• 2:20:09Bill Simmons?

  And I knew what the top four was, but then the top two, I kept switching back and forth. Number two is Creed. It was number one. It was number two. It was number one. It was number two. I finally put it at two because Moneyball is number one, but I think these are the two best sports movies of the quarter century. I don't really think it's arguable.

• 2:20:30Bill Simmons?

  I'll accept other arguments, but these were the two that they, if anyone's making a list and that they're not in your top 10, it's just kind of an invalidated list. They're important for different reasons. Creed had that degree difficulty of, wait, you were doing this again? What's going on?

• 2:20:50Bill Simmons?

  Kugler, the fruit veil? That guy's gonna do, he's gonna direct? Stallone's gonna be in it?

• 2:20:58Bill Simmons?

  What are we doing? And then it was the fucking best. And I'm so glad it happened, but it's just like the odds of it were almost insurmountable. And then Moneyball, very similar.

• 2:21:10Bill Simmons?

  They're making a movie out of the Moneyball book? How the fuck are they gonna do that? And then they had 40 scripts for it. Oh, wait. Oh, Brad Pitt's, oh, oh, I heard it's good. And then it's like, whoa, that movie's fucking awesome. You told a story and then when we did the 50 rewatchables about how you did a big picture, blind screening and the music played up and the crowd just started applauding. So that Moneyball, I think, has resonated

• 2:21:35Bill Simmons?

  in its own way. And so is Creed. Creed's had two sequels. But I think it's Moneyball one, Creed two. What do you think?

• 2:21:42Speaker 03

  So such a, such a tricky one. Cause we, so we had Moneyball on our list and that's a, you know, a real shared passion for Amanda and I. She loves that movie too. But when we rewatched Creed for the live show,

• 2:21:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:55Speaker 03

  I did feel like, damn, this like 28 year old kid made this movie. Like, how old was Kugler? When he made that movie? And he is just able to summon that classical storytelling thing, where the way you get invested in those characters that you otherwise just should have no relationship to. Cause even though it's based in a world that we already know, it's a whole new layout for Adonis. And also, the fight scenes are legit interesting and new and feel different. You know, like, that's a huge plus in that film's register. Because it's just like, there have been so many boxing movies. You've got boxing movies on this list. Very rarely you see a boxing movie where you feel like you're seeing it a little bit differently.

• 2:22:39Speaker 03

  And I feel like he pulls that off there. Plus, MBJ, you know, him and MBJ just being Scorsese and De Niro for us. I think is really exciting. The idea of getting another 30 years of these guys making movies together is really cool. And, you know, it's obviously the second time that they worked together. But it feels like them syncing up in a way that was very kind of mainstream that a lot of people get excited about. So it's legacy. I think it's gonna be real strong because Sinners isn't gonna be the last time they work together. Like, he really sees him as like his guy, like his avatar for his storytelling. So that makes the movie really, really powerful. Moneyball is cool. It's really fun. It's really smart. It's really insightful. It's bizarrely emotional considering the subject matter. But I don't know. Just talking about Creed makes me want to watch Creed.

• 2:23:24Bill Simmons?

  So you go Creed one, Moneyball two?

• 2:23:28Bill Simmons?

  It's a really hard one.

• 2:23:29Speaker 03

  It's a tricky one. They're both great for different reasons. You know, Moneyball is not a movie about getting over the hump and winning it all. It's a different kind of film. It's like a more about an exploration of process and how sometimes you don't, even if you have the right answers, you don't, you don't get an A plus on the test, you know?

• 2:23:46Bill Simmons?

  So that's why, there are a couple of reasons I like them as the final two for this 25-year run. Because sports movies basically start with The Longest Yard in 74, even though they're making them for a million years. So it's the first modern sports movie. It's like 26 years of sports movies. And now you look at the final two that are left. Creed's like a typical sports movie sequel, but it's not. It belongs to like this new era. But Moneyball is about where sports went in the 21st century.

• 2:24:15Bill Simmons?

  Right? So I was thinking about that piece of it that this is a movie that just couldn't have, wouldn't have existed. It's, it's almost like a jigsaw puzzle, putting it together movie, combined with like capturing some sort of movement that would go on to transform how we watch followed and, you know, how teams are put together, every single piece about sports. And then it's a really awesome movie. And then, and it's accessible to people like my wife who would normally not care about it. So I feel like the, the degree of difficulty was probably a little bit higher, but I still can't believe how high the degree of difficulty for Creed was. So it's a good last two.

• 2:24:51Speaker 03

  Moneyball is, you're a hundred percent right that it is totally sees the future about how we think about sports and how, you know, you, you're citing DVOA and, you know, expected points per play on NFL pods now, all because of that Michael Lewis book and the, and the way that the film kind of elevated its status among kind of mainstream, non hardcore sports fans. But there's also so many other things that happened with Moneyball where it was supposed to be Steven Soderbergh. They were really close to production. It didn't happen for whatever reason. It goes to Bennett Miller, it becomes an Aaron Sorkin script. It becomes a much more kind of romantic and traditional movie because of the Sorkin script. I think it would have been a much more experimental and like confrontational, almost documentary style. Like Soderbergh wanted to make it like Reds, but for baseball, you know, where

• 2:25:34Speaker 03

  he had the real people in it and there was into camera interviews. It never would have been on this list if he had done that. Unless he nailed it. Like unless he made something we've never seen before and it worked. But it just seemed like it was a very high bar. They're both great. I think they're both incredibly worthy of number one.

• 2:25:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the other thing with this movie. It comes out in 2011. I was in, you know, I was peripherally involved with, with that early wave of the Sloan Conference, all that stuff, when people are trying to figure out how to use these new wave stats. It wasn't accessible at all. And as you just said, the movie really. Really made it accessible in a way that it wasn't accessible before. And it saw the future of team building, even though it was about the O three As. It lays down this blueprint that now seems really obvious when you watch in 2025, but it was not obvious to normal people, I don't think in 2011.

• 2:26:25Speaker 03

  No, I mean.

• 2:26:25Bill Simmons?

  And then it became obvious.

• 2:26:26Speaker 03

  Sports, baseball, sportscasters, who are the most crotchety, old school figures in the world, have to know what OPS plus is now because of this movie.

• 2:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:26:36Speaker 03

  You know, like they have to use that data to communicate with their audience that cares about the games. That's pretty profound, the way that it shifted. Obviously, the Lewis book is the biggest, the most significant part of that, but without that book, this, you know, this movie doesn't go to, doesn't become a Brad Pitt level awareness thing.

• 2:26:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:54Speaker 03

  Creed though, Creed is just like had the hang glider movie though, where like, once it starts, you're just like, wow, I'm just, I'm, I'm flying off the mountain for hours.

• 2:27:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And the same thing where it has a couple, like really, really, really memorable scenes, which is the last piece of a sports movie. Am I getting chills? Do I have like a couple of hook scenes that I'm always going to remember? Is it about something? You look at the last four, Moneyball, Creed, Friday Night Lights, F1. All captures something that belonged to these first 25 years too. Right. Friday Night Lights becomes a TV show where IP now starts to become confusing with movies and TV. And we don't know really what's, what's a documentary, what's a movie, what's a TV show? It's like, almost like part of trying to figure out what IP is. F1 is the sport that took off this year, other than MMA, which I think started. But I mean, it took off this last 10 years in a way that no other sport did.

• 2:27:48Bill Simmons?

  It became this mainstream, huge sport.

• 2:27:51Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:27:52Bill Simmons?

  Creed, boxing, all the traditional sports movie recipe, but tied to this different era. And then Moneyball tied to where sports are going. So pretty interesting top four.

• 2:28:01Speaker 03

  Wait till my biopic of Jim Pickle, the creator of pickleball comes out and then you're going to add it to your list.

• 2:28:07Bill Simmons?

  I did sports consulting agency does not want to work on that one. Pickleball is almost dead. It's like 90% gone. Yeah.

• 2:28:14Speaker 03

  What's your beef, man? Why is?

• 2:28:16Bill Simmons?

  That's what people, people, it's what I'm hearing on the streets.

• 2:28:19Speaker 03

  The, the streets have told you, but you do walk a lot. So I guess you would probably be running into ex pickleball enthusiasts?

• 2:28:26Bill Simmons?

  The noise, the noise stuff is going to kill pickleball.

• 2:28:29Speaker 03

  Oh, how much noise?

• 2:28:30Bill Simmons?

  That's what's really happening. Yeah. The neighborhoods are starting to rebel against pickleball.

• 2:28:34Speaker 03

  What happened? Did you like, did some guy like pick a fight with you the first time?

• 2:28:37Bill Simmons?

  No, I still like it.

• 2:28:38Speaker 03

  Like, what happened?

• 2:28:39Bill Simmons?

  I cannot like certain things.

• 2:28:41Speaker 03

  Well, I agree, but you have a, you gotta, you gotta be in your bonnet on this one.

• 2:28:44Bill Simmons?

  I just think people should play tennis.

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  Okay, alright.

• 2:28:47Bill Simmons?

  Just play tennis.

• 2:28:48Speaker 03

  What if you got a bad hit?

• 2:28:49Bill Simmons?

  Try to break a sweat. Then don't play sports anymore. Just watch TV.

• 2:28:53Speaker 03

  Then just quietly die on the couch.

• 2:28:58Bill Simmons?

  Sean Fantasy, what's your best prediction for this year?

• 2:29:00Speaker 03

  Pain!

• 2:29:01Bill Simmons?

  Pain, alright. Good ending. Thanks, Sean.

• 2:29:04Speaker 03

  Thanks, Bill.

• 2:29:06Bill Simmons?

  Alright, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shriggs and House. Thanks to Fantasy. Thanks to Gahoun and Eduardo. As always, I will be back on Sunday night, live with Cousin Sal. The last time we would be live on YouTube with the Sunday Night Podcast, so get ready for that. Should be a fascinating Week 18 with the NFL, and we'll see what happens. See you on Sunday night.

• 2:29:44Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wildhorse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the Sharp Witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh.

• 2:30:29Bill Simmons?

  Writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats, and easy entertaining.

• 2:31:10Bill Simmons?

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