Most Surprising NBA Player Leaps With Tim Legler, Plus NFL Holiday Picks With Joe House

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler to check in on teams around the NBA before discussing the players that are better than you think, how the Celtics are similar to last season's Pacers, and more (3:17). Then, Joe House joins to make their Ringer 107 picks for the week (01:37:03). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Tim Legler and Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, now playing in theaters nationwide.

• 0:40Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables episode on Monday night. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan talking about F1, a 2025 movie that we did in 2025, second one of the year. We also did Sinners earlier in the year. I think there's only five movies we've done in the same year they came out in the nine-year history of the rewatchables. So we did Get Out, we did Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, we did Top Gun Maverick. There might have been one other one, so see the fifth or the sixth one. But I really love F1. I think it's a great sports movie. And it's a genre that has increasingly not churned out, like the high, high-end sports movies.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking about this because Any Given Sunday was on Pluto. Yeah. Yeah, I was checking out Pluto. I'm not going to apologize. Any Given Sunday was on, and I was thinking about that incredible run of late 90s, basically like from 94 all the way through the late 90s into the early 2000s, when just like awesome iconic sports movies. And we're just not making them in the same way anymore. If we make them, they're either small scale or we've run out of ideas for them. I don't know what's going on. But anyway, really enjoyed F1, enjoyed Brad Pitt, enjoyed everything. I'm not even a racing guy, but we covered all the angles in that one. You could check out, though, obviously with Christmas on Thursday, we're scaling back big time on the content on The Ringer this week. But.

• 2:10Bill Simmons?

  This is the last podcast for, for this week. You can check out all of our other podcasts that we have because everybody went at least once, I think. So we'll have enough to keep you warm over the holidays. Anyway, coming up on this podcast, Tim Legler, we had a lot of NBA stuff to cover. He hasn't been on in a few weeks and we spent a little time talking about contenders, but a lot of time talking about players that have gone up a level this season. I also threw my Celtics theory at him that I have about this season that I came up with last night. So he's on and then Joe House is back to do Ringer 107 with me. Ringer 107's been in shambles, basically looking at the playoffs at this point, hoping we could turn it around, but some fun games to talk about. So basketball, then football, that's the podcast.

• 2:55Bill Simmons?

  We'll take a break, bring in Pearl Jam. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance when it comes to getting help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 3:52Bill Simmons?

  All right. Happy holidays to our guy, Tim Legler, doing a Christmas. What Christmas game you doing?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Houston Rockets at Lakers. It's the prime time, 8:00 PM Eastern, man. I'm really looking forward, really looking forward to it. And honestly, Bill, I'm just looking forward to calling a game, even though Christmas is always affecting family time. We get that, but I haven't called a game. The ESPN, ABC have not had any games since Thanksgiving Eve.

• 4:16Bill Simmons?

  Wow. What have you been doing with yourself?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  A lot of pods. I'm still watching games, a lot of, but you know, hey, listen, it's not the worst thing. My life will disappear later in the year when the playoffs get here. So I, I say goodbye to my family for a while. So I'm just a lot of family time, but still watching, obviously, and doing a lot of this, this kind of stuff, man, just because there's a lot of really, really interesting stuff in the league right now.

• 4:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, I hope all the Lakers are playing in that game, but I'm dubious. I want to start here. How many contenders do we actually have right now? So if I did this, I did this two weeks ago on my pod and I said, OKC, Denver, Houston, maybe the Spurs, maybe the Knicks, but it was really three, then maybe two. But now I look at it two weeks later, and I think Detroit has a real case now with the way they've still been holding up their play. Minnesota, especially with the OKC win the other night. There's a couple other teams, but is it, how many, how many is the exact number for you now? Because I think you can make a case for seven. Does that sound right?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  I'm adding, I would have Detroit, New York from the Eastern Conference, obviously Oklahoma City, then I would include Denver, Houston, Minnesota. I don't think you can rule out the Lakers necessarily, man. Like, I don't know that, look, I don't know that any of these teams, and then, did I say Minnesota or San Antonio?

• 5:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, San Antonio would be the same.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Maybe I have one more. Oh, yeah. Do you have the Lakers in there?

• 5:43Bill Simmons?

  I don't. I have four teams after that, that I just wrote down, but I wouldn't put them in now if my life depended on it. And by the way, one of those teams is the Boston Celtics.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:53Bill Simmons?

  Just full transparency.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that's fine. I get that too. I mean, I understand that. Like, listen, they have, that's been one of, I think, one of the better stories in the, in the league is what they've done. Them and Philly, I think both of those teams, what they've been able to do with Boston not having Tatum and really just, I think, holes in their roster.

• 6:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Be able to do what they've done. And in Philadelphia, the uncertainty of when Embiid's going to play, you didn't have Paul George to start of the year. And when Embiid does play, it's a totally different style you adapt to. And those two teams are third and fourth in the Eastern Conference. I did not, for the life of me, see that coming. If you told me Embiid was missing the amount of time he's missed and Paul George, there's no way I have Philly probably in the top eight in the East. Boston, I thought at best they were going to probably be like in that five, six, seven area. So both of those teams have overachieved because they've been carried by a couple of guys offensively. But I get why you'd include Boston in that. Why not? Particularly if, you know, these reports are that Tatum's going to come back in March and, you know, he might be, he might be back for a

• 6:56Speaker 01

  month before the playoffs would start. Yeah, they absolutely probably should be included to win the East at least. I don't know if any of these teams legitimately are beating Oklahoma City in a seven game series. So the real question is like, who could be the last team standing against them in the West? And who could be the last team standing from the Eastern Conference? That's really what we're talking about.

• 7:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're comparing it almost to last year. Nobody would add Indiana as a contender, but all of a sudden they were in the finals and it didn't make sense as it was happening and then it happened. Yeah, the four I had that I just don't know. Boston, who's 33 to one to win the title right now. The Lakers, 22 to one. The Cavs, 21. Orlando, 35 to one. And I think the Cavs and Orlando is a classic. Let's wait and see here two months. I'm more concerned for the Cavs than Orlando. And I think with the Cavs, they've only had their top four and four of the 29 games. But there's a general malaise and there's just red flags going off. Plus the fact that they can't fix their roster. Orlando, we kind of know we have,

• 7:58Bill Simmons?

  they fit in Bain. You know, they're, they're going to get healthier as the year goes along. And I just, I think they're a safer bet. But I mean, the Cavs, can you figure it out at all?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  What's going on? And I think to answer your question, the criteria I use when you hear the word contender, for me is, can you realistically see this team?

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Like either in the Western Conference, that would mean in the conference finals.

• 8:24Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  And if you're in the East, can you realistically see them in the NBA Finals? Like, I think that's the question. And that's why for me, what I've seen out of Cleveland is really disturbing. Now, I know that they've had health issues like a lot of teams, but there's something, there's a flatness about them and a lack of defensive presence that concerns me. I think Orlando, for the most part, has a toughness that they play with most nights.

• 8:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  They haven't been healthy either. They missed Banquero for a while, comes back. Now you don't have Wagner. Bain struggled big time early, kind of, I think he was almost like, yeah, a new place. It's always weird for a guy that's like a high volume shot taker, kind of trying to fit into this team. He's found his stride. So they, he's answered a lot of what they needed from a year ago. They just haven't had their top guys on the court for any sustained stretch with Wagner and Banquero. Last year included till the second half of the year. So I'm actually.

• 9:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but Cleveland could say that too. Cleveland could say that too. The difference is Orlando seems to have fight regardless of who's out there or not. And Cleveland, it comes and goes. And that's the part that's concerning.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And I think I would differentiate the two of them this way. Here's why I would put them in different categories. Relative to what I thought their ceiling was and what I saw out of them last year, I think Orlando's closer to that. They got a better chance to hit that. Cleveland is not the same. They were absolutely unstoppable offensively last year.

• 9:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And the nights this year, when their offense has clicked, their defense hasn't been close to good enough. And I don't know exactly everything that's going on. Health's played a factor, but it's more than that. It's more than that when you watch them. They, last year, teams absolutely had no chance to try to slow them down or defend them. The way that they moved the ball, the way they shot the ball, they ran you out of buildings with these huge runs. And a lot of times it would take place in the first half. They'd go up 15, 20 points, you know, early second quarter. That, that was like a regular night for them. You're not seeing that as much this year. So I think they're much further from what they were at their best a year ago compared to the Magic.

• 10:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, it feels like Detroit took their mojo and their identity and everything. Like last year, Cleveland, I forget how many games they won, but it was like 16, 17. It was over 15. And that's when you know you're a really good team and you can put together streaks. This Cleveland team that we have now, I don't think could win four in a row. But when I, when I think of the finals though, I feel like you have to play defense.

• 10:58Bill Simmons?

  I need a top 10 player. Like I'm, I'm just starting there, even if you look at Indiana last year, which didn't make sense as it was happening. But by the end of the year, it felt like Caliburton was a top 10, 12 guy in the league. They had a good coach, they could defend. They had a style that made sense when you watched it. And the East was just weird and flawed and strange. And the, the series where they beat the Cavs in five, that was just a weird series in general. Giannis got hurt, there were reasons for it. I still feel like you need that top 10 to 12 guy. So like, when you mentioned the Lakers, even though I don't, their record is way better than I think what the eye test is for them. And especially if they have one injury to anybody, it feels like they're just a completely different team. But they still have the star power.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't want to see them in a series. I went to Lakers Clippers Saturday night legs. No Reeves, Luca gets hurt at the beginning of the third quarter. Kawhi and LeBron, I, I, I'm not going to say they don't like each other, but there is a competitive dislike when they're on the court together. And it really was on at one point and LeBron turned it on for about 10 minutes and he pulled the Lakers back to eight. I swear to God, he looked like LeBron again. And we're all sitting there going, this is unbelievable. Like he's in his 40s now, we were like, how is he still doing this? And then that, you know, they missed some shots, the moment faded away. But just watching that, I was like, all right, I'm not rude, I'm not ruling these guys out yet.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I watched a good chunk of that game and I was thinking the same thing. And it's, it's, that's one of the reasons that it just kind of belies what we all know about, um, you know, biomechanics and physiology for professional athletes, what he's doing. They're like, it's, it's one thing to have good scoring nights at his age. And that even is kind of unprecedented in his age, but like even you get into your late 30s. If you're a, if you're a player on that level, you're still going to have nights where you score the ball well. What should not happen is that you look like one of the fastest guys on the floor.

• 12:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Like that, that's what, that's what, when I watch him, I go, how does that? Makes any sense whatsoever. How is it possible? He can still look like the best athlete on the court for stretches of games north of 40 this many years into the league. And that's the other night that I think reminded you of that. And that's why for the Lakers, and I know a lot of people like that want to hate on the Lakers and they look at this team and their defense is so bad some nights and you go, don't include them in the mix. And I go, how can you really dismiss a team with those three guys if they're all healthy? Because now there's not a team in this league that has three guys on that level that can command a defense and control a defense the way they can with their passing and scoring. Nobody has three of them on that level. And

• 13:39Speaker 01

  a guy like Luca who's been, for the most part throughout his career, pretty good, big game player, LeBron, obviously, can you really completely dismiss them? So that's why they're going to hang around and be included.

• 13:53Bill Simmons?

  And trade possibilities with them too, with all the expirings they have. Even last night, Draymond melted down again. Poor Steve Kerr. He just needs like a full-time therapist, a marriage counselor, just to deal with the Warriors. But Draymond melts down again. And the difference this time around versus when he was, you know, at the level he was at, I just don't think he's quite at the same level anymore. So you have the same kind of up and down emotional stuff, but you're not backing up with the same play. Like, he's shooting under 40% legs. He's like 39.8. His two-point stuff is just gone. Doesn't, the free throw, he doesn't get to the line. His turnovers are the highest they've ever been. And offensively, he's just, just kind of an afterthought. In a league where

• 14:36Bill Simmons?

  the centers have gotten bigger, there's, there's just, every night, there's a Shangoon, there's a Robert Williams and Klingon together. The league just has more size. And last night was the first night I was like, I wonder if they would trade him. Like, I wonder if there was a Rui Hachimura and a contract for Draymond, just like, let's just mix this up and go in a different direction. Or with Sabonis sitting out there for the Kings, could that be a Draymond, Kaminga and picks and let's just try to get a guy? But did you, did your mind go there last night? Because this is yet again, another Draymond saga.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  My mind's gone there for years, Bill, with regard to this story for years. Like, and, and last night, and I was People were hitting me up today about it and I didn't see the game, but I went and watched what happened. I watched the interaction. I don't know exactly. It's hard to tell everything that was said, but I mean, Steve Kerr's a fiery guy. And so obviously this thing really escalated in that huddle. Moses Moody gets up at one point. He's trying to like get in between them to look to me to calm Draymond down more than anything. I will tell you this, in, in, in the years that I played in the league and all the years I've covered the league, I saw guys get thrown out of huddles. I've saw guys get thrown off the bench and sent to the locker

• 15:56Speaker 01

  room. I saw guys get thrown out of practice. I never saw a guy by his own volition, get up and walk to the locker room during the game. And, and, and so at the time, you're not sure, like you can't tell like, did, did Kerr throw him out of the huddle? And then you find out Kerr says, no. And, and Draymond said the same thing. And then you know, it's, it's true because later Kerr was asked, well, when he came back to the bench, like early fourth quarter, whenever it was, were you going to put it back in the game? He said, no, absolutely not. Like it was the quickest answer. No, he left the team. He left the huddle. He went to the locker room. No, he was not going back in the game. I personally haven't seen it. Now, maybe it has happened. I don't know of a time that it happened. Certainly

• 16:38Speaker 01

  not, but my eyeball saw it. That to me is pretty big. That's a pretty big thing. You walk away from the team in a five-point game, you know, when your team's a 500 team, like every one of these matter. And you just get up and leave because you say, oh, I just thought it'd be better if I cooled down and kind of separate myself from the situation. I, it's really kind of uncharted territory in a lot of ways. You don't see this. And that's why I'm curious to see what the, does this move the needle at all for them? When you combine it with some of his offensive issues he's had this year, which is a low point for him in his career. Yeah. Combined with this stuff, and are the dividends with the winning and the leadership

• 17:20Speaker 01

  and the defense, is all that stuff still outweighing all of that? Because there was a time that no matter what the offense was, it was like, good enough. And the emotional outbursts like, okay, because he was giving you world-class playmaking, IQ and defense. Now you go, is that stuff still on that level to offset the offense plus this? And I think it's probably right about that point where it's, it feels like almost a wash. So, so like, what would they do? I still doubt they would ever do it and ever move him, but.

• 17:52Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I don't doubt it. I think they would. I think they would. And, and if I'm another team, like the reason this initially came up was we're talking about the Lakers, right? A team that when they put their best three guys together, have a lot of trouble on defense. And the net ratings with LeBron and Reeves and Luca together just hasn't been good. It makes sense. You have three of the five guys you have out there and their defensive liabilities. LeBron's not a defensive liability if he's going all out, but I think it's hard for him to go out for two straight hours. You put Draymond on that team, reinvigorated with, I can't believe they traded me. I'm going to triple down and, and be a maniac. And that's kind of what the Lakers need. So I don't know. That, that one struck out to me.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  And then, uh, just the Kings with, with the way that their rookie center has evolved, who I think is a gem. I mean, congrats to them, but I think Sabonis is expendable to them. And, and you know, I want to talk about that later, but I, I think Sabonis is on the table and he should be if you're the Kings. You stink anyway. Why wouldn't you trade him?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Let me, let me follow up first with what you said about Draymond. I completely agree with you, by the way. I think like there, it would be like that final adrenaline push from Draymond. If, if something like that were to go down, I do think he's still a guy that's going to help somebody win games. There's no doubt when it's been the totality of how long it's gone on in Golden State and you reach this point, you look up, you're 500 team, you're at the end of the Curry era. It, it, you know, you don't look like a team that can contend. You know, would you be willing to do it? I, I still don't think they would, but if they did, I do think there's something more there still for Draymond Green with something to prove if he were to go to a team that was playing for something and what he could, what he could add.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You're talking about one of the more competitive.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Golden State the rest of the year.

• 19:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, you're talking about one of the most competitive non-superstars we've had this century. And if they did trade him, the fire that would be lit under him. The bigger question for me is they're not. They're not on my contender list. They're not on yours either. They do need to do something. They only have a couple of contracts. They're paying Butler like almost 55 million. Curry's, they're not trading. So it really moves down to like Kaminga plus contracts and it just gets easier if it's with the way the apron is for Kaminga Draymond. I like the fit for the Lakers. Obviously he has a long relationship with LeBron and you know, the clutch factor, which I don't even know matters anymore with the Lakers, but that one jumped out to me.

• 20:22Bill Simmons?

  And then could the Warriors turn contracts and picks into one more premium guy? And if you were them, does that even matter? Has the ship sailed? Can you say the ship sailed when you have Steph Curry? You kind of, you kind of can't sail the ship as long as he's on the team, right?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Totally agree with that. He can't. Curry, there's not been this, you know, big time discernible drop off in what he's capable of. There's just not enough on that team to where now you can, you can load up on him in a different way than you were ever able to defensively. You don't have to worry about the counters that they run and over committing to him, the way they would make you pay in the past. This team doesn't do it to that extent. Even, even Jimmy Butler, like when it ends up with Jimmy Butler's hands, that feels a lot different. If you've run to it, Steph coming off a dribble handoff and the ball ends up back in Jimmy's hands, that's a lot different than what it used to look like when that ball ended up with Klay Thompson and a quick release three and the

• 21:22Speaker 01

  way that they would just punish you if you tried to play on the top side of Steph or you didn't communicate the switches or the down screens properly and all that running he does. They punished you in a way they don't as much. And so, no, it's just not enough. Curry, to me, would still have that in him if he had enough around him. If you had to go and, and, you know, figure out a way to bring in a guy like we're talking about on that level, that's a needle mover for them. You would have a serious depth issue most likely with this team, but if you had Jimmy Butler, you had Steph Curry, you added another star player to the mix, very difficult to just dismiss Steph Curry's chances if he had one more guy like that.

• 22:06Bill Simmons?

  I like that Sabonis idea just because the offense that he brings and the playmaking and the way his, his hoops IQ offensively, I think fits in with who they are and what they do. You, when we were texting about stuff to talk about today, and we have a segment coming up that I'm excited about, but you mentioned how we're heading the dog days right now and how this gets dangerous for a bunch of reasons. One, the trade deadline is coming up.

• 22:34Bill Simmons?

  Your name gets thrown around. No matter what team you're all of a sudden, you're on hoops hype. You're in a, you're on NBA today with Shams. Like I'm hearing dot, dot, dot. You're in the rumor mill. You're on Twitter. There's Reddit boards making up fake trades about you. Every bit like 10 teams are just completely unhappy. Five teams are probably happy. They suck. Another seven are like, could we be good? Maybe not. Who knows? And then you have the seven, eight contenders. What is it like when you're on a team like this during the dog days? Like what are the, what are the danger signs and what, what can go wrong as you hit the holidays and the trade deadlines coming up?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Tough because what happens is you get to this time of the year, the adrenaline from the newness of the season is gone. That's, that's worn off now. Teams are starting to find out kind of like what they really are. When you've played a third of the season, you start to have a better idea. Are you on the outside looking in or not? And that adrenaline you were getting from just the freshness, when every guy in the rotation thinks they're going to crack it and everybody thinks their role is going to be expanded and like everybody's excited. Now everything has sunk in. The reality for every player and every team is sort of sunk in. The adrenaline that you then get for the playoffs.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  That's too far off in the future. So this middle third of the season, this is, these are the toughest games. Not to mention in fact, a lot of these road games are in really cold places like, you know, right? All that stuff. Like I remember being in like, when I was playing in the league, like being in Washington and then middle of the winter, you'd get that two game trip to Miami, Orlando. And it was like, oh my God, thank God. You come out of the hotel and like your joints felt good. And like you went to shoot around and it was like this lightness in the air because it was warm and you felt, it was fun. You wanted to go play pickup ball. Like this is like, this is great. A lot of these cities, it's not, man. Like you're bundled up, getting off the bus.

• 24:32Bill Simmons?

  So Minnesota doesn't have that.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Right? Exactly. A lot, a lot of those, a lot of cities in the league check that box. So that's kind of there all the time. You know, the, the injury and fatigue is sort of there and you're, you're still like a couple of months away from like the horizon when the real meaningful stuff comes. So this is the toughest time of the year. And this is when because of it, there can be lulls with teams that change the way front offices view certain guys that weren't really going to be involved in move, being moved. This is the tough time of the year when there could be this law from a production standpoint, or your team starts losing games because all the things I just mentioned pile up. And now they make a move that was kind of not foreseen. And I think that that's the danger

• 25:18Speaker 01

  that you run into in this 15 to 20 game stretch we're about to start.

• 25:21Bill Simmons?

  And there's the adrenaline rush if you do make a move. It's like, hey,

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No doubt about it. Woo.

• 25:27Bill Simmons?

  Look at us. The Celtics are in a unique situation just because they have this Tatum comeback looming, right? So it's like, the playoffs far away, but then you're also like, hey, we're hanging tough here. We're the three seed and we might get the guy who was third in MVP last year back. Spurs, I think is another one that I don't, you know, it's been so rare for them to have all their guys and Wemby was out, he's back. Now you see as they try to figure out with Castle and Harper, with Wemby and Fox, like just having those four guys playing together for a month straight, I think is a huge win for them. Houston's the one I'm watching from, I don't want to say a Malay's standpoint, but just a, and

• 26:09Bill Simmons?

  you're getting them on Christmas. And we're taping this before the Tuesday games today, but they lost three OT games in the last week. Their net rating, all their rebounding stuff like that, we don't need to make the cases for why they're, why they're great. They almost have too many options at crunch time. Where I like, sometimes I feel like they're too heavy on going to Shingun. When you have Durant there, you have Shepard who's been lights out. Thompson feels like he can beat anybody one on one. You got Jabari in the corner. And I think they're almost trying to figure out like, well, we have more offense than we realized. What are we? So what are they?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing that they're dealing with right now. They've got to be better at, at, at end of game offense. And actually, it's even starting before the end of the game. What teams have been doing lately to the Rockets? Kevin Durant's getting hit with these blitzes at half court, even when there's not a ball screen. Like, he's coming over half court and teams are sort of, it almost looks at first like they're morphing into some sort of a zone. And then that second guy on top just runs up and they're forcing him to give the ball up over half court. It's happened throughout the game, but it's particularly been prevalent in like the fourth quarters of these games. And they have not handled it well. I don't like their identity offensively in close games. I did, one thing I said when

• 27:27Speaker 01

  they got Durant, obviously, they needed the offensive firepower. This was an elite defensive team, an elite rebounding team. They didn't have enough. They didn't have guys you trusted down the stretch. And Shingun, as good as he is, is not a guy that's like got every answer to be your guy down the stretch of fourth quarters, like some of the stars in this league. He's not a Jokic, he's not a Shay, he's not a Tatum, like, he's not a Curry, he's not on that level offensively. So they got by with their defense rebounding. Where's the offense coming from? They get Kevin Durant. I didn't want them to be this all about Durant late in games. Like, give him the ball and just let him go. Like, that's how they're going to play offense. It's not good enough in this league. Not against the Oklahoma City Thunder, which was the team they were comparing themselves to. Well, now

• 28:10Speaker 01

  you're finding, teams are just getting the ball out of his hands. And they're not worried about what's happening on the back end of that with how Houston is making them pay for that. That's their big riddle to solve. And I'm going to do a heavy dive on the last couple of games before I do the Christmas night game to see when that surfaces in that game, which if I know J.J. Reddick, it's going to because he's been watching their results as well. What is the problem with why they're not able to capitalize more on those possessions? And why their end of game offense hasn't been very good. And the Orleans game was the one that stands out to me. You're blowing a lead against a team like that. And look, they've won five straight games. They're playing better, but it's the Pelicans. And you've got almost a 20-point lead in that game in the second half. You've got to close that game.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  You can't lose that game. And it really was about their offense letting them down. And so that's to me what I'm looking at with them right now. They don't have a great identity offensively down the stretch of games, Bill. And they don't know how to play out of teams blitzing Durant and giving it up and how to make you pay. Because there's not enough shooting on the floor most times. And maybe the Amen Thompson factor isn't quite what they thought it would be with that leap. So that's really been their biggest issue. Teams are figuring them out a little bit in that way. They've got to have an answer for that now.

• 29:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the shooting piece is the thing that jumps out to me because I feel like when I watch them, I like when Shepard's out for them and when he's out there in crunch time for them. I just think he solves issues. And they also get fast breaks when he's out there. And when they don't, they just seem like they slow down. But I swear, I see the same thing with you with how clumsy the crunch time is. And yet I like all their options. I feel like there's stuff they haven't explored. Like, they never set picks for, they never have Shepard come up and set picks at the top of the key, right? Like do like a little high screen with Durant. Use him as a screener, the same way some teams use their best guards. It seems like they fall in this habit of like, shit, all right, Shingun. And they just

• 30:12Bill Simmons?

  dump it to him, which I don't think can work in a playoff series for two weeks. It's too it's too easy to stop. So they'll figure it out.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, they don't have, in my opinion, enough motion off of their entry to Shingun or Durant.

• 30:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, everybody stands.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  It turns into a lot of standing and watching. And you know, for Amen, that means he's gonna probably slash or get a lob or get on the offensive glass. They've got, it's crazy because they shoot the second highest percentage in the league from the three, but the reason that is because they take fewer than anybody. So yeah, like they're so selective in their shots. Now, to their credit, they're taking shots that they can make that that's good. In some ways refreshing that they're not taking 45, 53s like a lot of teams is like, that's fine. They're taking 30, which is a very low number in this league. They shoot a high percentage, but it feels like they

• 31:09Speaker 01

  don't move off the ball or keep weak sides occupied at all. When the ball gets dumped into Shingun or they're letting Durant kind of go into his thing. And so offensively at times, it it kind of bogs down to the point where they look guardable. And it feels like they've got more talent than that.

• 31:29Bill Simmons?

  What team would you have wanted to come off the bench for and play 15 minutes as you watch all these teams? I just have to ask, because we're in an era now where a team shoot 45 threes a game. Is there a dream team for you when you watch it?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Take your pick. I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of teams that like, you know that when there's not a shot on the court that can be taken that anybody would frown at. It's, it's like Nirvana, like Cleveland would be a team I would think of like, there is no three point shot that any of their spot up shooter guys can take that anybody even bats an eye at. And I know this because I'll be sitting there courtside sometimes, calling a game and a shot will be taken three seconds into the shot clock, heavily contested, like off one pass. And I immediately, my eyes immediately divert to the coaching staff.

• 32:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  In that situation. And no one reacts to it at all. Like, I'm going, wow. So I guess it's just, yeah, just live with everything. So there's a lot of teams in this league that I can't imagine the mental freedom. That a lot of guys have that kind of played a similar style game to me.

• 32:34Bill Simmons?

  You would enjoy the Simons role on the Celtics when he's trying to basically carry offense when when Jalen's out and one of the guards is out and like Simon's just with no shot is is bad. Just take all of them. Um, we're going to take a break and then we're going to play a little game called guys who are even better than you think.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 32:53Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch tip off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details.

• 33:34Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. Here's the task, Tim Legger. Guys who are even better than you think. And here's the premise. These might be people, people aren't talking about enough, which is kind of an overused sports media thing where like people aren't talking about blank. Usually we're talking a little bit. Or people who are actually really good, but we don't even understand how good they are, or actually what is happening beyond even

• 34:19Bill Simmons?

  a level you might have expected. So I made a whole list. I asked you to make a whole list. Let's just go back and forth. Who was the first guy, given the parameters of this that you thought of?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Jalen Johnson.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  He's the first guy for me. Like.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  He's on my list as well.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  He's kind of blowing me away right now with the how easy he's making this look. This guy's not just putting up like, you know, 22, eight and six nights. This guy is having like 35, 13 and nine nights. Like you're talking about the numbers that you see a Jokic put up or a Luka put up. He's doing that damn near every night. Now, he had an opportunity to get extended freedom when Trey was hurt, but it hasn't stopped since Trey came back. It's his team. And the thing, I was actually watching the other night and I was thinking to myself, man, does this guy's like smoothness hurt him?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Because it's so effortless that it almost looks like there's a lack of intensity. Because it's that easy for him. And I don't think, I don't think there is a lack of intensity.

• 35:29Bill Simmons?

  You know what that Ryan's saying to me actually is, is it's a little T Mac ish. Cause I agree with you. Everything is so smooth. It almost seems like he's not going all out, but he is going all out because he just, his muscles just move differently. He's averaging 24, 11 and 8 right now.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  It's insane, man. And, and, and I think if you take away like the first month of the season, those numbers are significantly higher than that. Like, I mean, he's, he's had stretches of 10 games where he's been averaging over 30 points a game, double digit rebounds and almost 10 assists. Like, these are the numbers reserved for the true top tier alphas in this league. And he has been doing that pretty much all year for Atlanta. So he, he would be, he was the first guy I thought of. And it's crazy because he took a big leap last year. And I'm going, wow, you know, you talk about the most improved player and stuff like that. Typically it doesn't go to guys like this who already arrived at a certain level last year. And now they're just taking it to like, those guys usually get excluded.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  But it to me, he's so much better than he was last year. I don't think it's blasphemous to throw him into that conversation.

• 36:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like six weeks ago, when the Yanis trade stuff started and I was saying how I thought Atlanta made, was the team that made the most sense because of the picks, the assets, the expirings. But I was saying, Jalen Johnson can't be in it. Like, I'm not trading Yanis unless I get to also keep Jalen Johnson. Cause now I have these two guys together.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:54Bill Simmons?

  And some people are pushing back, like especially like the Bucks fans that I know are like, well, we're getting Jalen Johnson and Yanis trade. Like, that's ridiculous. So I'm like, I don't think they're trading Jalen Johnson. Six weeks later, untouchable. Like I, if I'm the, if I'm them and you're like, you could have Yanis for Jalen Johnson. Obviously you'd have to have a seven hour meeting about it, but I would much rather have the younger guy who keeps ascending and try to figure out a way to also bring Yanis into it. Versus, you know, making him the centerpiece. I just don't think there's a world where they trade him at this point.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  I totally agree because of this, the explosion in his offense over the last 18 months. There's no telling what the ultimate ceiling is.

• 37:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  When you have a guy that young, that talented, who's doing it this easily, like you, you really don't even know how much more there is to grow. So the uncertainty of that is so risky to give up on and send somewhere else. Cause even though Yanis is

• 37:51Bill Simmons?

  You're not doing it.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  A more known commodity right now, you also know 100% what his ceiling is. You don't have any idea what Jalen Johnson's ceiling is. So that would be to me, a really risky, dangerous thing. And again, to your point, I'm not considering trying to acquire him unless I can figure out a way to pair them together. Cause I want something special. I don't want just sort of this, this, you know, one in, one out type situation. We got this in, but we lost all this. Are you going to feel like you're kind of in the same boat where you were, even though Yanis, I agree, is on a different level right now. I couldn't give up on all that upside without knowing. I would lose sleep over that as a GM, knowing I moved a guy like that, that's grown this much in a year and a half.

• 38:33Bill Simmons?

  He's only 24 years old. Yanis, who's had been dinged up with some injuries the last couple of years, there was a lot of miles on him already. You need Johnson with Yanis, and that's the only reason to do it. So I still feel like that's the honest trade that makes sense. Everybody seems to feel like it's going to be till the summer, but when you see the Bucks are 11 and 18, plus they have that New Orleans pick, plus they have some other stuff. Who knows? Uh, my first guy, you're going to laugh. Nikola Jokic.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  Just, I, I just want to talk about the stats because I, we're used to it now. It's been a whole decade of this, but right now he's averaging a 29, 12 and 11. He's shooting 61%, but 41% from three. He has a 34.9 PR, which is like two and a half points higher than his usual. He's leading the NBA in rebounds and assists, which I didn't realize until today. Did you know that?

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did know that. It's been going on for a while because it came up with a one day a researcher sent me a note because we were talking about him on some segment and it was like he'd be the first one ever to do it.

• 39:41Bill Simmons?

  Ever.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  If he could pull this off.

• 39:43Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, he's, he's leading K by one and a half assists and he's leading Towns by a half a rebound. He's also only five guys ever have gone 25 plus points a game and 60% field goals. But the, I was like, I thought Wilt did it. And it's like, no, Wilt led the league in assists that one year. He also led the league in rebounds that one year. He led the league in points, but he's never did the assist rebounds at the same time. So I, I, you just look at the basketball reference and you watch the six years as he just keeps somehow getting better. And I actually think it doesn't get enough attention.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Well, Bill, I was, I was fortunate enough last year and my buddy Dave Pash and I talked about this in the moment, right after the game, back at the hotel, have the glass of wine. The next day we were continuing to talk. We were the two guys honored with calling the 30 20 20 game.

• 40:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  That Jokic had last year.

• 40:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  30 20 20. And it was one of those nights, and you get this sometimes in the league where like the social media reaction from other star players over that performance. It was incomprehensible that someone could do that, to have that kind of statistical impact in any given game. But it's just, it's just, you can't believe you actually saw it. And we were the two guys that were able to call that game. So yeah, for me. I don't know that he's better than I think he is. It doesn't sound like he's better than you think he is, but I still think you're probably right. There's probably a large portion

• 41:21Speaker 01

  of people that don't genuinely understand what this guy is doing on a nightly basis, which is still shocking to think he could have the year he had last year and not win the MVP. And Shay deserved it too.

• 41:33Bill Simmons?

  And Shay's probably gonna win it this year. If they go 75 and 7, Shay's gonna win.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I've been saying, I've been saying for the last two weeks, listen, the guy's numbers are better. They could potentially could break the record for wins in a season.

• 41:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  They didn't substantially improve their team from a personnel standpoint. So they're running it back. He's every bit as good. How can you guarantee you get another MVP? No matter what Jokic does is, well, let's do something historically great. Let's be an all-time great team. And they're on their way to do that. So to me, I think it's gonna be very difficult for Jokic, particularly if there's another 10, 12, 15 game gap between OKC and everybody else in the West. It's gonna be very difficult for Jokic to be able to get one. You're gonna talk about two of the greatest years in the history of this league, if this happens, to not win an MVP.

• 42:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Back to back.

• 42:27Bill Simmons?

  My guy Larry Bird, his best year ever was 87. Didn't win the MVP. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it's the narrative. Sometimes it's how your team's doing. All right, your next guy, who is it?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  The next guy I would go to off this list, I'm gonna go with A.J. Mitchell. I'm going with A.J. Mitchell because right now he's been like, okay, wow, A.J. Mitchell, people are like noticing this guard on the Oklahoma City Thunder that got a chance to play because Jalen Williams was out.

• 42:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I'm watching a guy that at some point, and I don't know when it's gonna happen, because if he stays in Oklahoma City a long time, it's not gonna happen there because of those two guards and how young those two players are, SGA and Jalen Williams. Maybe it's somewhere else a few years down the road. I think this guy legitimately has like all-star potential.

• 43:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, so you feel like, like 2021 Brunson?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:23Bill Simmons?

  Kinda ish.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:24Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. Now, look, will he, will he top out at, you know, 27, 28 points a game and be in the MVP discussion? I don't know, but I'm not going to rule it out because Jalen Brunson so blew out the ceiling of what I thought he was as a player. I probably missed his ceiling more than any player I've ever covered, Jalen Brunson's. I thought Jalen Brunson was going to be a like 15-point-a-game guy on a mediocre team, or like a really good backup guard on a contender, but not an MVP guy that can get on any night 30, 40 points, like just whenever he feels like it. I never thought he was this. So I'm not going to say A.J. Mitchell can't become that,

• 44:08Speaker 01

  but yes, it's got that sort of feel to it. Backing up two great players, in Brunson's case, it was Jokic, it was, I'm sorry, Luka.

• 44:18Bill Simmons?

  Luka.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  In this case, it's SGA, Jalen Williams as the off-guard. I think this guy potentially, when he gets his own team, puts the ball on his hip and is running the show, I think A.J. Mitchell is potentially like going to become a star. When that happens, I don't know, and what would have to change circumstantially for him? Probably a lot to get those kind of numbers that I'm talking about, but I think he's capable of it.

• 44:43Bill Simmons?

  I 100% agree. I hate when we just agree all podcasts, but I 100% agree with that one. My next guy, I gotta go home or pick.

• 44:54Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe how good Jalen Brown has been offensively this year. I'd already decided on him as a player, and I was a Jalen defender. I thought I knew who he was. I thought he had maxed out whatever his ceiling was, probably two years ago during the playoff run. There were some flaws that were just going to be there that we lived with, and that's just who he was going to be. We knew he was probably going to score a little more this year without Tatum, right? But I thought it was going to be more high-volume threes. I thought his field-goal percentage was going to go down.

• 45:28Bill Simmons?

  First of all, I think he's, it's him or Jalen Johnson for best forward in the league right now. I just think if you're talking about pure forwards, I don't count Giannis as a center. I'm not counting him as a forward. The one-on-one stuff this year has been so sophisticated. He did it again against Indiana last night. And I know Indiana stinks, but Indiana was trying. He was going against Siakam. He was going against a team that's well coached and kind of knows how to help out. He's just, he has this whole bag of moves now. He's got that. One of the last times you were here, we talked about, he's got this move where it seems like he's going to drive with his right hand to the basket and he stops and does this low crossover 12 footer. He's got this kind of, almost like Brunson-esque,

• 46:12Bill Simmons?

  pounds you down, plays off you, and then has this extra footwork now where he'll take this extra step and do these spin layups. I just, I love how he's playing. I think he's been more unselfish than ever. He's averaging 29 a game, 29, 6 and 5, shooting 50% and his free throws are up legs. 7.6 free throws. He was never a big free throw guy. He was always like a settle for threes, don't go to the basket guy. And I just think he's been awesome. And I kind of can't believe it. And this is not a small sample size. This is now one-third of the season.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I love this one because I think, here's what I'm seeing from him. First of all, it's very rare that a player in his 10th year can find another level offensively than what you thought you knew. And I think what you're seeing is he, there's no deference at all on the court. When he's playing with Jason Tatum, there is a level of deference that takes place that can affect his nights. And if Tatum gets cooking on a certain night, particularly if it's early in a game, that can affect Jalen Brown's night to a certain extent. And just the fact that he's there and you got, like, kind of got like one eye knowing where Jason Tatum is because of his level and his profile and the shadow he casts

• 47:29Speaker 01

  in the league, will take Jason Tatum off the court right now for Jalen Brown and everyone defers to him. He doesn't get that feeling that often because he hasn't had to do it. And so for me, to be able to, to take it to this level with the opportunity that's presented really has impressed me. Second highest field goal percentage in a season of his career. 50% more free throw attempts per game than his than his highest single season. So like, take whatever season you want in his career, the highest free throw attempts per game, he's shooting basically two and a half more free throws a game than that. He is, I think it's his career high in assists.

• 48:11Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Playmaking has been there as well, and it shows you, man, you know what? This guy had a lot more in his bag than you really thought because he didn't have to demonstrate it every night. Cause he had Jason Tatum as like the ultimate crutch, like to lean on during stretches of games and stretches of seasons, and that's not the case. It's his show and he's showing you what he's capable of doing. So I totally agree with you. And I think he and Tyrese Maxey have got to get a lot of talk right now for what they've done with those two teams to keep them positioned where they are with all the uncertainty and injuries that those teams have dealt with, delivering every single night as the targeted guy for defenses. And they're still finding out a way to get to 30 pretty much every night.

• 48:55Bill Simmons?

  I think both of them should be in conversation for first team all NBA. And that's probably like a nine guy list, but I think both of them should be in there. The, the thing that with Jalen, he had time to prepare for this because Tatum got hurt in the beginning of May. And you know, like, all right, I'm going to be the guy next year. How do I get better? And I think he took so much shit over the last couple of years for like, can't dribble with his lefts, loses the ball too much, settles for threes, doesn't hit big free throws at the end of games. Oh, now that Tatum's gone, watch how bad Jalen's going to be. And I think all that stuff really helped him. Like he came in, he fixed every flaw that he had. Like he, like he can go with his left a little bit.

• 49:36Bill Simmons?

  He does have this crossover now, like teams poke at him to try to steal the ball and they don't get it anymore. The, the last thing I'd mention.

• 49:46Bill Simmons?

  He has gone toe to toe with the best guys in the league and matched their offense, which I think is the last, this is what Cade started to do last year. If you're gonna like just swim in the pools against the better teams and the best teams, you still at some point need a guy. You nearly, oh shit, it's 104, 104, four minutes left. Where are we going? This is now a ying yang game. Who's my guy? You saw it with Edwards and OKC on Friday. Edwards thought he was the alpha on the court. Like, he's insane, but he really believed it, and he beat OKC and he made the biggest shot. Jalen thinks he belongs on the court with all these dudes. He's like, who am I playing tonight? Oh, we got Max tonight. Oh, it's Luca tonight. Like, he thinks he's on the level with all those guys, and this year, he's played like

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  he is. So, that attitude, I think, is one of the reasons they've been really good. Who's your next guy?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Next guy I'll go with is Reed Shepard. And here's the thing, I really liked him coming out. So, I was a believer. I saw him initially in summer league, and I was super impressed. Like, I called his first Vegas summer league game last year, like, the first time we saw him in a Rockets uniform. And I was so impressed in that game, because I had not seen him in person. And what you, what you pick up on in person is this guy's athletic ability. He has tremendous elevation on his mid-range, and, and, because he doesn't look very big. He's actually listed bigger than he looks when you see him on the court.

• 51:13Bill Simmons?

  Have you stood next to him?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  I have, yeah, yeah.

• 51:16Bill Simmons?

  So, what is, like, five, are we talking like 5'11"?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  No, no, he's bigger than that. But, he's bigger than that, but like, when you, when you look at him moving out on the court against some of the, like, longer armed guards and stuff that he's playing against, he looks like one of those smaller guys. He, he almost looks Mark Price-ish to me, right? And, and, and I was watching him, and I'm going, well, how does he get this stuff off, like, in the middle of the floor? And this was a point, by the way, he wasn't really making threes in summer league. He wasn't making threes last year at a high rate, so it was like- How was he even scoring? Well, he's scoring because the mid-range was he was more comfortable with before the three-point shooting at the NBA level because he gets off the ground and I have frozen it on touchscreens to take a look at deep defenders that were right there and

• 52:03Speaker 01

  they both jump at the same time and he's giving up three inches to a guy with a long reach and he's just goes up where his foot is like basically at knee level from the guy that's jumping to contest because his bounce is so good he can get that shot up and that is what triggered what we're seeing now. He was going to that more often early in the year because he still wasn't making threes and that kept his confidence up until the deep shots started to fall and once that started to fall, this guy now has become one of the most important players on their team. And you knew Van Vliet was out, the opportunity was going to be there, didn't look like he was going to jump on it early in the year. He's jumped all over it now and like they, I don't know where Houston would

• 52:46Speaker 01

  be without what Reed Shepard is giving them from a shooting standpoint in front of just a bench production standpoint now.

• 52:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, when Van Vliet got hurt, the best, best case scenario for Houston was that Reed Shepard could play some minutes and, and be serviceable or better. And that, that I think he's been above that. I, I really like him. I agree with you. The Mark Price thing stands out when you watch him, not just because they're both white guys, but just, he has this, he has this 80s, 90s style that I think has gone away because we've moved more toward these like Donovan Mitchell type zero guards, guys who have the ball a lot, but they're not like these pure point guards that we grew up with. And I, I just think he's one of, I like watching him on fast breaks. Like, he's one of those guys, he kind of knows what to do and where to go and, and who to make the extra pass to and when to give the ball up.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  And I want to make one more quick point on him because this is, I, I lived this in some way, some regards. It's amazing how when he was struggling to make shots early, like his rookie year and even the very beginning of this year, but most of all of last season. All of a sudden, because you're not making shots, some of the stuff defensively gets like overly scrutinized, right? Because the ball's not going in on the other end. Now, he's making shots. And like now, he's getting a lot of credit for like lateral quickness. He's really scrappy with his hands and he, he's always been that.

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Really good at raking on guys. Like he, he's just got very quick and very good anticipation defensively. So it's funny how the ball starts going on the other end. Like all of a sudden, like the narrative completely changes. Like even though you're exactly the same player.

• 54:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Your defensive competitiveness. Now, all of a sudden, it's becoming something they talk about as a strength of yours. When before it was like this obvious weakness because the ball wasn't going in. So he, give him credit because that's not an easy thing to change. The narrative one. And he kind of has done that because he's been so good offensively for them.

• 54:45Bill Simmons?

  He's also, and I say this as a compliment, he's a little bit of a dick.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Oh, no, he's got, he's got a swagger, man.

• 54:51Bill Simmons?

  He's got, he's feisty and it's, there's a little, I always thought, I always were right about John Stockton, like what an asshole he was. And he would just set these cheap picks and he would trip people and he was just scrappy. Cause he had to be. He was one of the smallest guys out there.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. He got a shot blocked the other night by Bruce Brown on a pull-up jumper and Brown blocked on the baseline and knocked it into the crowd. And I've started woofing at him. And at this point, Reese Sheppard was already, they came off the bench. I think he hit his first three threes. So he's already like rolling.

• 55:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  And Bruce Brown like blocks his shot and has all this stuff to say to him. And you could see him like smirking and going back at him. And I was kind of sitting there. I was like, I wish I could like, had a thought bubble right now. Like what's coming out of his mouth right now? Because like to get challenged like that, when you're starting to play well, you feel yourself a little bit. Like you're not going to take that. And he went right back at him. He ended up having, in that game, he had like 28 points.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  He was awesome.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Um, he was incredible.

• 55:46Bill Simmons?

  Pritchard had, not to compare him to another white guy, but it's the same thing. Like you're the undersized white guard. People are gonna make runs at you, they're gonna talk shit to you, and especially if you're not hitting shots, all the, all the kind of warts just seem bigger. Pritchard developed the same thing, like he, he talks as much shit as anybody and he's super confident and he's an irrational confidence guy and you kinda have to be.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  I actually thought that's who you were gonna say when you led it with, we were talking about guys that are better than you think, and you said this is like a homer take. I thought you were gonna say.

• 56:16Bill Simmons?

  You thought it was gonna be Pritchard, interesting.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  I did, I thought you were gonna say yeah, because it seemed like it would lend itself to this conversation. Can I say, Taysom, man, the first time I saw him in person, I called a game last year in Phoenix, and I was like, this dude's sneakers make a different noise than everybody else's sneakers on the court. Like, the, the speed with which his feet move and like that squeaky sound.

• 56:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  If you went, you broke it down with some headphones and listened to it, like, you're like, that doesn't sound like anybody else's feet, because his feet are moving so quick. Like, he's way quicker than I thought he was when I saw him in person. And I, I love that whole story with him and like what he's turned himself into. And again, like you look at where Boston is without Tatum, and Jalen Brown deserves certainly most of the credit, Missoula should get a lot too, then it would be Peyton Pritchard, man, right there as like the next guy, stepping in now as a starter and playing as well as he has.

• 57:15Bill Simmons?

  I have two picks here. I'll go with, uh, since we're on a white guy run. I don't understand this Colin Gillespie thing.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 57:26Bill Simmons?

  I just don't understand it. I think, I looked at his basketball reference, he was on Denver two years ago, did you even know?

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yep, and I got.

• 57:34Bill Simmons?

  He played 23 games for them.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Did you and I not talk about this earlier when I was on with you about my, my background with Colin Gillespie?

• 57:42Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember your background with Colin Gillespie. I don't think we've talked about it.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  I coached AAU for seven years and my team was based in South Jersey and my son was on that team and it started out, they were like 10 years old with mostly local kids and like the better like local kids that came through my camp, like that's where I handpicked these kids. So you start playing local tournaments in the Philly area and he was with a program called the Northeast Sting in Northeast Philadelphia and his story in high school is incredible. No scholarship offers going into his senior year. Outplays a kid going to Kentucky in the Catholic League playoffs. He was like 43 points against a kid, Quade Green, who's going to Kentucky. And his dream was to get one scholarship offer from Delaware was the way it was, the narrative was. He ends up, Jay Wright sees the game, offers

• 58:26Speaker 01

  him, he goes on to become Big East Player of the Year like twice and now he's in the league. So, but here's the thing, we played that team like 10 times and it was started with the Northeast Sting and then we started playing him on the Under Armour circuit. It was like higher level stuff and I kept seeing this white guard that I just loved his game. And they were never able to beat us. They, I think we were like probably 10-0 against his AAU team over the course of his youth career. And the guy goes on to do what he's doing now. So yeah, I knew where he was. I've been following his career from day one and in fact, the first time I saw him at a game last year, he came running across the court to come over and shake my hand because he remembered those battles like when we, I was coaching against him. I told him how happy I was for his success and I always admired

• 59:08Speaker 01

  his game. Do you know that this year Colin Gillespie has scored 90 more points this season, a third of the way in than he has in his NBA career to this point, total?

• 59:19Bill Simmons?

  I would have believed even a higher number.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand why he didn't play last year on a team that desperately needed a point guard and somebody who'd give a shit. And he was basically bare on that team.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  He was tough as nails, man. He is, that kid has so much confidence and belief in himself. And it's the typical like Villanova, like Brunson had it. They just, they belong in the bright lights. Like they like that moment because he's been on the floor for Phoenix a lot in the fourth quarter.

• 59:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  And he's made plays defensively too because he's got great instincts defensively. So he's come up with timely steals or a deflection or whatever. Maybe he's never in the wrong place. If it's his turn to trap or rotate, but then on the other end, he's like made big shots. Uh, so.

• 1:00:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they trust him.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Incredible story.

• 1:00:06Bill Simmons?

  They trust him running offense too. Yeah, he's over 40% on threes. He's, he's just jumped out over and over again, trying to figure out what was going on with this weird Suns team. That's just played well and really gives a shit.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw for the first time, he was like 13 years old and now here he is. An impact player for one of the surprise teams in the league.

• 1:00:25Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable. Well, I do think he fits into a theme that started last season and has carried over to this season.

• 1:00:34Bill Simmons?

  Effort, as weird as that sounds, these, these teams and players that just really seem to care game to game, quarter to quarter, half to half. And now that we've moved to this league where there's more full court pressure, people picking stuff up at half court, you kind of need these agitator perimeter guys. The Celtics have a slew of them, but Phoenix, I look at the team they have, it didn't make sense before the year. I went under on their wins 31 and a half. They just have a bunch of hard-nosed dudes that actually care and want to mix it up and roll their sleeves up and really fight. And I think that hurts these teams, like these Cleveland teams that are just kind of in a fog, waiting for the playoffs to start and they don't want to get in fights with these teams.

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  They don't want to battle. They don't want to roll up their sleeves and, and all of a sudden they're down 12, they're down 15. But he's, to me, he typifies that. And I think there's other, other guys like that. I think Knipple's been like that. You know, like Jordan Walsh on the, on the Celtics when he was playing was another one who was just like, he just really gives a shit. Hugo, Hugo, I always call him Hugo. Hugo on the Celtics now, he, he's just a maniac. And I just feel like we've had more and more maniacs in the league. I don't know. I, I can't think of a reason either.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  No, I think you're, you're hitting on something. I think now teams are now identifying the value added to, to what you're doing.

• 1:01:53Bill Simmons?

  Like energy.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  With energy, with guys that are willing to kind of push themselves to the limit in terms of fatigue and stamina, like and continue to like, what you're talking about, the ball pressure up the floor. That's definitely been something that's increased in the league last couple of years. The other thing that you see on a nightly basis when the teams write and you notice it. When you can force the initial pass to the wing, like that first entry pass to start your offense, when that can be denied and pushed out to 38 feet on the catch, 30 feet on the catch, it's amazing what that ends up doing to your possession, the timing of the next action that teams are trying to run. So now, coaches are rewarding guys that want to do that. They're not just going to kind of be back there lazily, let the guy pop out, catch it right at the three-point line, where now, all of the timing and the

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  cuts are the way the coach drew it up. When you force that first catch out on the floor, everything is off from that point. Denying ball reversals to the top of the key, like that's a big one. If you can force the ball reversal out to like 30-plus feet, it's amazing how much more difficult it is to score with what the next action was supposed to be on the weak side of the floor. Fighting guys in the post for position, not just conceding it, let him catch it and like, oh yeah, that's right, I'm getting a double team and then waving for help. Now, how about you fight that guy first, do not let him catch it where he wants it. Front him. Do everything you can to let the ball come in easily. It wears

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  on the guy. It also creates timing issues. It wears the clock down for teams offensively. All that stuff, it seems like now, is being rewarded with guys that otherwise might not have been able to crack the rotation.

• 1:03:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I wonder if it would change the concept of team building. Like, OKC, everything you just laid out, this is one of the things OKC is the best at, not to mention all the other, all the talent they have, all the great shots they get, but they just make it so hard for other teams offensively. And then I look like, you know, Detroit is another one, where it's just hard to play them. They're a pain in the ass. I look at a team like the Clippers, and I have my LA friends like, oh my God, what's wrong with the Clippers? They can turn it down. You can feel it when you go to the games. They don't have enough of these crazy energy guys. Their energy is like, super low. They have all these guys who have accomplished a bunch of stuff. It's an older team, you know, and you just kind of feel the energy sag, and they go against the wrong team, and it just, it's almost

• 1:04:15Bill Simmons?

  you're watching going, the other team's trying harder. Maybe they aren't, but it feels that way, and they just kind of don't want to mix it up like that. They don't want to roll their sleeves up. I can't remember who was up, but I had, I wanted to mention Khalil Ware of Miami. Who's turned into a 12 11 guy and I wanted your take on this. I just like him. I mean, he's playing 24 minutes a game, 25 minutes a game, put up double doubles. If you redrafted 24 and Castle was first, I think, I think Castle has to be first. I don't even think it's an argument.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:48Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:49Bill Simmons?

  And then I gave you Sar, Ware or Shepherd as the next three in some order. What would your order be?

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Ah, man.

• 1:04:57Bill Simmons?

  Castle first, Sar, Ware, Shepherd.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:05:01Bill Simmons?

  And you have the second pick based on what you've seen for the last year and a third.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Man, that is tough because I do think Alex Sar has like offensive capabilities that Klayl Ware is never going to have. And it's really intriguing because he's so long and he actually, there's nights when he's really impactful defensively. Now, look, he's on a team that, you know, no one's paying attention to. It's not winning. It's a different environment. I'd love to see him on a competitive team and maybe he'll get that at some point in his career, sooner than later. The overall package there is more significant than Ware's. Now, Ware on a certain team, if you want to plug a guy in, like with what he does well, he can be a massive difference maker, as I think he is in Miami. But

• 1:05:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  in terms of the two players, Sar probably for me has a little bit more upside than what he can be. And he showed me a lot this year. I thought the first half of last season, I was like, oh, man, they might've missed this pick altogether. And man, did he have a great second half of the year. And then he committed to go to summer league, which I was shocked by. Like guys, you know, typically, you know, he was all rookie team. You know, you're thinking, he's not gonna want to go to Vegas. They said he volunteered to do it. He wanted to go out there and play with those guys. It's told me something about him and who he is and like how bad he probably wants to be better. And so I probably would lean there. And look, Reese Shepherd's a really, really nice player. One day, maybe he's gonna

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  be starting point guard on a team and doing things, but I'm not quite 100% sure yet. Is it like this perfect situation he's in now to do what he does? Or what is ultimately like his real ceiling on a team that's really good? I'm not exactly sure. Alex Sar is intriguing to me because of the length and the skill set.

• 1:06:48Bill Simmons?

  I had the same order. I think Sar is the highest ceiling still. There's stuff and I saw him in person in November, but there's stuff with him where it's like, that's unusual. I don't, there's not a lot of guys that do that. Shepard, I would probably have over Ware because I like the ceiling with Shepard. Where he is right now at age 20, I'm just trying to imagine him at age 27 when he's got full confidence. Um, I think, I think he's a possible All-Star. I'm not sure Ware's an All-Star, but he's perfect for this. Can he put up double doubles? Can you, can you play with your hands up? Can you protect the rim? All that stuff. All right. You got one more guy. Who do you have?

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Uh, let's go with Denny Abdi.

• 1:07:29Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Uh, this dude, like when he got drafted, not, people didn't know much about him. Lottery pick goes to Washington, kind of like watch him early on. You're like, ah, you know, he's, he's got like a nice, like all around game, but didn't do anything great. And to do what he's doing now and to put up these stat lines, and look, Portland's a pretty competitive team. Like the Western Conference, they'd have a lot more wins if they were in the East. And they're playing, they're playing Eastern Conference teams all the time. Like, I mean, look, look at the Western Conference of what you're dealing with. So their win totals, um, aren't as good as they would be if they were in the East, but they're still, you gotta come to play when you're playing against the Blazers. And this guy now-

• 1:08:13Bill Simmons?

  It's another roll up, roll up the sleeves team, right? And he's like the probably the starting five on that team.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Completely is. And for people that probably haven't, that are listening to this, you know, that love the league, but like, maybe you're not really watching the Blazers, which I would understand, like you're not really paying attention to the Blazers. They've played themselves into 10th place, which is like, might not sound like much, but that's, that's, that's, you know, play in territory. Didn't look at their roster before the year and think that was going to happen. This dude is averaging- Just under 26, seven boards, six and a half assists, 47% from the field, 37 from the 380 from the line. And he's like a triple double threat a lot of nights with like, not like the generic kind, not like 12, 11 and 10. Like this is a guy that's going to get those

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  28 point triple doubles. His all around game has really blown away my expectations for him based on what I saw in Washington. It was just an obvious case of give this guy more freedom. The talent is there. Let him go play through some mistakes and you've got something really nice. It's kind of crazy when this happens though, Bill, because it's almost like you're going, well, the talent evaluators in Washington were right. Like, actually, they were right, but they didn't even give it enough time to know that. And then he's in Portland. So, because the guy is, the guy's taken it to another level. But so it was there all along.

• 1:09:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, it seems even worse than that, though, that it seems worse because it seems like they traded him partly because they wanted a fully tank and he was like a little too good to be part of the mission.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:47Bill Simmons?

  And Portland smartly identified it and grabbed him. But I think the Wizards fans, like Joe Haas, who comes on this pod all the time, huge Wizards fan, like he was that idea was really good. I don't think he thought he was going to do 26, five and six. I mean, he's not only an All-Star, I think he has to be in the All-Star team, but I, he's at least on the fringe All-NBA conversation. I, I can't believe how good he is. If you're 26, seven and seven for a third of the season, I know the numbers are a little inflated these days, but that's, that's real. Well, that leads me to Michael Porter Jr., who I just wanted to mention. It's only 23 games. He's on a bad team. He's averaging almost 26 tonight and he's in the 50, 40, 90 vicinity and he's averaging almost four threes a game.

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  And look, I don't know, we knew there was more there. We knew in Denver, he was being used the way he was going to use. We thought he was overpaid. I still probably think he is despite the stats. He's had some toe to toe with the best player on the floor for the other team games where he seems to be pretty confident. He belongs in that, like what I talked about with Jaylen Brown earlier. He killed the Celtics a couple of weeks ago, like killed them, like single-handedly. It's probably their second worst loss of the year. And he's had a couple of those where he's just like, yeah, I'm Michael Porter Jr., I'm putting up 30. He's an intriguing.

• 1:11:07Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if he's a trade asset, if he's a building block or what is he? But I think he's probably added four wins to their total that they didn't think they were gonna have. They wanted to be terrible and they're not terrible. They're not good, but he's fucked it up for them.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  He's done way more than I thought he was going to and

• 1:11:24Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  I wasn't like a, I wasn't like a, you know, a negative Michael Porter guy at all. I, I just thought there was a casualness about him that probably hurt him. And with what they did in Denver, the way that they played on certain nights, if it wasn't, you know, flowing toward him, he would get a little bit aloof.

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, check out.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  A check out a little bit. I think Michael Malone at times kind of, I think was probably in his own head. If he didn't say it publicly, was questioning his toughness a little bit some nights. So the irony is like when they trade, when they got, made the trade, I said, well, this is an upgrade. Cam Johnson's an upgrade for them because I trusted his energy more. I trusted his ability to play within a role and like be good at that every night rather than the fluctuations. When some nights, Michael Porter would get it going early in Denver. And he was a totally different player than the nights when he was kind of an afterthought for them offensively. And now you're effect, now you're looking at his defense. Now you're looking at his energy because he wasn't getting shots.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  I thought Cam Johnson's gonna have nights where he doesn't get a shot for a quarter and he's still gonna play hard. And hard as he can. So I thought it was an upgrade and I'm still not sure.

• 1:12:38Bill Simmons?

  And they shaved a lot of money too. I mean, they shaved 20, 20 million, I think, or something close to that. So it was a no brainer.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Denver's having a hell of a year and maybe, maybe ultimately he is a better fit for them. For some of the reasons I stated, particularly if Jamal Murray is gonna have the year he's having. Maybe you need a guy that's gonna be less consistent with his shot volume, but still like play hard and have a, he, he's got a really positive energy and vibe about him, Cam Johnson. No matter what's going on and Michael Porter Jr., he just kind of has a different vibe about him. Right? So maybe it still is for the best that they made the move, but give Michael Porter Jr. All the credit in the world. So I have a question for you because I've been thinking about this. Is there any part of Michael Porter Jr. Do you think? That's kind of having just like this year for now, just a little bit more fun. Even though

• 1:13:29Bill Simmons?

  There's no question.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Even though they're eight 19 and they're not playing for anything and he's not going to contend. Denver, who knows, Denver could end up in the conference finals or the finals. And you could be part of that, you know, he's already won a ring. But do you think maybe because he's won a ring, he's like, hey, I kind of tasted that. But this is fun. Like I'm the guy now, the ball's ending up, everybody's looking for me. I'm a magnet for the ball. Some part of him is probably really enjoying the hell out of this at 27 years old. You know, just to get numbers, go get numbers.

• 1:13:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, he was also, he was the, you know, one of the biggest high school recruits of a, of a stretch there, right? He was supposed to be.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Number one in his class for like two years in a row.

• 1:14:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So I think there's, there's a sense of like, ah, it never happened for that guy. And now he's kind of showing like, well, never happened to me, but I was also on a team where I never had the ball. Like you can make a case for it. He won the title is the key thing for me. If he hadn't won a title, I'd be like, I don't know. It's fun to be on a winning team, but he won the title. Now he's proving A that he could, you know, again, small sample size, but he's at least shown it.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

  B, I think he's a really intriguing trade asset. Like I wonder if the Warriors have had a meeting about him. Be like, hey, could we turn Kaminga and some other stuff and a pick into Porter? What does that do for us?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Well, I, here's, I really believe in just like conversations that I'm having. I think the guy has completely changed like his draft stat. I mean, I'm sorry, trade status.

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  I think he is.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  In terms of attractiveness to teams, attractiveness, like this guy now is like, cause I think people thought, okay. Kind of, I kind of knew what Michael Porter was. The fact that he can do this offensively, even though it's a team that's not winning a lot of games. I do think now there's probably more teams that would look at him that are sort of those middle of the road playoff teams. And go, man, that would be nice to add that kind of scoring punch. Question always gets back to what do you, what are you willing to give up for him?

• 1:15:26Bill Simmons?

  Right. But I was thinking Milwaukee with him, cause I know Doc likes him and Doc was coming on my podcast. He, he always thought Porter was underrated for Denver. He liked that he rebounded. Um, all right, wait, so I apologize to not mentioning Tyrese Maxey. Sorry. Um, you asked, how do we decide most, most improved player? I just wanted to cover this quick. Because I don't think Avdi is eligible for me, even though he's one of the favorites. Here's why. He did this for the last two months of last season. We already saw this and I, it was the same reason I didn't vote for Cade last year was a different reason was just like, well, Cade's was the first pick in the draft. He's supposed to get better every year, which is I think the case for Maxey

• 1:16:10Bill Simmons?

  not being in there. I don't really know how we decide this and it seems like it's up to the voter and we both have votes. But I feel like, like Porter could potentially be in this most improved player thing, right? It's like, well, look at, he's really improved. It's like, is he? He just got more shots, more higher usage rate. He's on a team that needs him. Um, if you went from not playing to playing like Gillespie, I'm not sure that counts either. So what, what is the criteria? What's the number one thing for you?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  So for me, um, I, guys fall into different categories with this and it all depends on what you prioritize the most. Like I hear what you're pointing about Avdi. Maybe you say the same thing about Jalen Johnson. Because, you know, he showed you like some of this last year and you're kind of like, okay. Here's what it really comes down to, Bill, because for some of these guys, it's not really that they improved that much. In terms of their game, it's really, the award should be for some of these guys, most improved opportunity. Because that's, that's what's changed for Michael Porter Jr. That's what's changed for A.J. Mitchell, who is a guy that's probably going to get a lot of votes for this award. Because he was not really on your radar with the Thunder last year and now he's a major component and will be all year.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  This guy's going to play 20 plus minutes all postseason for this team.

• 1:17:31Bill Simmons?

  But can you, can you improve from not playing at all to playing? I'm going to say no.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  What do you mean by that? Are you saying you're not, you don't think a guy that was just like hanging on to an NBA career? To, to, to now be in a, a guy like Gillespie, for instance, you, why, why would he be disqualified?

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  I'm not saying disqualified. I'm just saying, when I think about this in my head, it should almost be a separate award that they should call the where the fuck did you come from award? And it's like, oh, this year it's Colin Gillespie. Where'd you come from? What happened?

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  That's the way they should, maybe they should name it that.

• 1:18:05Bill Simmons?

  That should just be a different word. I look at, so when I think of this award. I look at Jalen Durin, who right now in FanDuel has the fourth best odds, plus 700. I look at him like he had the exact same minutes last year. They needed the exact same things from him last year. But I'm watching him this year and he's a different guy. Right? He's, he's just went up a level. He is now whoever, whatever center he's going against, I feel like he's toe to toe. They can run offense with him. At the end of games with him and Cade, and it's kind of devastating. His, his personality has evolved where he's like this real leader and kind of, kind of intimidating presence.

• 1:18:47Bill Simmons?

  And I just, I don't think he was that way last year in the same way. So to me, that's the kind of guy I'm looking at for a candidate. But you could also say like, Jalen Johnson is now one of the 15 best players in the league. He should win.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, agreed. So that's for me is first thing I'm going to ask myself is, have they gone to a completely different shelf? Right? Yes. In the hierarchy in the league. And, and if they, so that's the first thing they have to, and, and some people might, for some of these guys say, well, yeah, but if you really then go deep dive into what they were doing last year, you're going to realize, no, they really, they really aren't. Like they've already shown you this. Now they're doing it consistently more often, maybe. And so that would maybe be what people are looking for. I wrote down 10 guys without really, really, really diving in. Like just off the top of my head, going down the league. And I'm going to blow through them real quick because we've covered a lot of them today.

• 1:19:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  But there's a few others we haven't yet. So I have Jalen Johnson written down as a guy that's probably going to get consideration for this. A.J. Mitchell, Reed Shepard should, because Reed Shepard got an opportunity last year as the third pick of the draft. Like you're going to give that guy an opportunity. He didn't look quite ready for it.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  I think, but that, but that goes into like, when, if you're a second year guy, you should be better than you were as a first year. That's where I got confused with this award. It's like, I would expect you to be better this year. You've been in the league for a year or two.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  That's a very good point. And that's why a lot of people will exclude guys from this. I look at him and go, He's so much better than he was though, because last year he didn't look sure of himself. And the opportunity was there for him to grab the backup point guard minutes for that team. They wanted him to get it. He wasn't ready. And you know what I will say, when I met with Ime Udoka, like halfway through the season, I called a Rockets game. At that point, Reed Shepard was like, pretty much out of the rotation. And he had so many glowingly positive things to say about him, I knew he was gonna be okay. Like you can tell when a coach, you ask about a young player and it's like, you can just tell by their response,

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  even if they don't say it, you could just kind of tell that they don't believe this guy's gonna turn. He did not give me that indication. So that made me think this guy's gonna be fine. Like there's something they're seeing that is not translated to the games yet. Now, he's done it six times last year, double figures all season. He's done it 18 times. So, so there you go. But you're making a good point.

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  All right. So who else to drive in the list? Sit through it.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Collin Gillespie, I think, has to be in there. Avdi, I mentioned. Jalen Dern, I have on this list you mentioned. We talked about Alex Sar. I think he could be a guy. These other, these next few, I think are really interesting ones. Nikhil Alexander Walker. Look at what he has done with an increased opportunity to score the ball in Atlanta that he didn't get in Minnesota. Minnesota was guard the ball, one of the best all-ball defenders, pressure up the floor, loved you for that. On those nights you made shots, great, but we don't really need you to do that. It's not a big deal. You're not judged by that. Now he goes to Atlanta and all of a sudden, it's like a different type of offense. Trey Young's not out there and this dude's getting 20 regularly. Like him and Jalen Johnson are getting 50 points combined, like a lot of nights.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  I put him down. Ryan Rollins from Milwaukee was a guy I thought probably deserves some of this because he looks really natural as a lead guard for them with an increased opportunity. And then Keanu George was the last one I wrote down in Utah. Now, here's the thing about him. His efficiency isn't much different. He's just taking higher volume, but the guy had like four 30-point games in a five-game stretch.

• 1:22:27Bill Simmons?

  You catch him on the right night, it looks like he's gonna be a five-time All-Star.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Man, the dude's got talent. He oozes talent. I think he drives them crazy a little bit with some of his decision-making, but the guy's got massive talent and they're, they're better than they were. At least they're trying to win games now a little bit more often. So I've noticed him a little bit more than I did a year ago. So that was like my 10-guy list.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  Can I add one more?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:22:51Bill Simmons?

  Kevin Love hasn't done anything for the last four years. 16 rebounds the other night. Let's throw him back on.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:22:56Bill Simmons?

  Is there any other late 30s guy? One new word? This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FTIC.

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. This Christmas Day FanDuel is letting you once again pass the leg to your families and friends with a fun new way to bet. So if you open Pass the Leg in the FanDuel Sportsbook app, you can begin by creating a unique link. For all the NFL games on Christmas Day. What an early Christmas present this is. Add your legs, invite and share with your friends. Once your friends are finished adding their legs,

• 1:24:24Bill Simmons?

  add the group parlay to your bets slip and you're ready to go. Use your pass the leg PBT to boost your winnings and just get after it. So here's what I would do for the Christmas games. Cowboys, commanders, Chris Rodriguez, plus 120 anytime touchdown score. It's been coming on late. I just think this game's gonna have a lot of points. I like that one. Lions at Vikings, Jameer Gibbs, anytime minus 195 for a touchdown. And he didn't have a good week last week. I could just see him unleashing holy hell this week. And all the teams that got eliminated last week in fantasy, because he was on their team, get mad all over again. Yeah. And then last but not least, Broncos at Chiefs.

• 1:25:07Bill Simmons?

  Let's go nuts with this Broncos defense against whoever the heck is QBing for the Chiefs. Broncos defense to score a touchdown, plus 550 at any point in the game. I love it. Throw that in with some easy bets and you're ready to go. Head to FanDuel, start passing the leg right now. I had two more quick things for you. I told you I had a Celtics thing I wanted to throw you.

• 1:25:33Bill Simmons?

  I say this very hesitantly and carefully.

• 1:25:37Bill Simmons?

  They remind me a lot of the Pacers last year. If you actually look at the blueprint and what they're doing, because I've been, I watch every Celtics game, really trying to figure out. First of all, I've loved this season. It's just amazing to watch a team lose their best guy. You know, that like Jacoby and Chris Vernon were talking a couple of weeks ago on the mismatch pod about the Scottie Pippen season without MJ, when the infrastructure stayed the same and Scottie rose up, much like Jalen's doing this year, and they just somehow won 55 games without Jordan. It was incredible.

• 1:26:13Bill Simmons?

  So here's, here's the Pacers comparison. They're built around guards, right? The guards are creating most of the offense, most of the opportunities to shooting. They control the pace. They always have two out there. Simons can come in and he can still like create a shot. So they're always in a position with their guards where they can create something, which is where the Pacers were last year. They have an awesome forward.

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Pacers had Siakam last year. I think Jalen's an even better offensive option than Siakam was, but they have one forward that they know can get a shot and can kind of, if you space out for him, can probably get a good 12 to 15 footer. They have some rim protection in Kada, which the Pacers had Turner. And then they just have all these wings that just try and play defense and know how to switch and they come in waves and the whole team tries really hard. The bench can come in and they really remind me of that Pacers team. And I know that the one thing that's different is Kada can't shoot threes like Turner did. They don't have like an incredible playmaker like Halliburton, but Brown's better than Siakam. But I think it's the same blueprint. They're really well coached,

• 1:27:19Bill Simmons?

  good infrastructure and the 18-11 makes sense to me watching it. So that's my case.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  I like that a lot. I think there's, I'm kind of get the same vibe watching them offensively that I did get from the Pacers a year ago. It's pretty incredible what they've been able to, you think about it, the last two teams that represent the East in the finals, both lost their best player. And look at, look at the difference in the results. And you know, Indiana had some other injuries, but they still had Siakam just about every night. Matherin has been out there. Nemhard's been out there, like these, you know, TJ McConnell and these guys in there. Miles Turner's not there, obviously, but look at, look at their season and look at what the Celtics have been able to do. So I have a question for you as a follow-up. As a guy that's a, you know, unapologetic, love

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  your team, do you have even an improved respect factor for Joe Mazzulla than you had prior to this year?

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  He won me over last year, but what I love about this year's team is it's like, it's like coming out of his brain and his pores, the way they, like you basically, if you don't try, you're not playing. He sat Garza for a couple of weeks and Garza had a, had a weird little stretch where he wasn't good, but Garza's creeped back in and he creeped back in because he's playing like his life depends on the game and if the Celtics lose, he's going to be murdered after the game. He had a play, he got an offensive rebound. He dove over two guys and tipped it back like he was like a strong safety trying to break up like a hail Mary or something. So you have him and then you have Ugo, which is

• 1:28:54Bill Simmons?

  like, I honestly, I think Missoula created him in a lab. Like I think he went to Spain and just like created like his version of Frankenstein. Ugo is a maniac and he's, I think he's plus 78 the last three games and you feel it when you watch it. He's flying around like he just had 17 coffees. Other teams hate playing against him. They hate him. He's

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Is he like taking on this like sort of cult status now with the Boston crowd?

• 1:29:21Bill Simmons?

  It's beyond. Yeah. Jordan Walsh had it for a little bit and then Ugo just like grabbed it, but the combo them together, they always have one guy in the game who's a wing who can guard anyone on the other team and who tries, you know, at an A plus level. And it's just, it's been really fun to watch. So now you start thinking about this Tatum comeback. Let's say he plays 25 minutes a game. Those minutes are coming from like Shireman and some Hauser that you're just going to upgrade to Jason Tatum that even if he's on a little bit of cruise control, still the three-point shooting, the rebounding, the defense, like they're going to be better with Tatum. And I think these, this last week was the first time I think Celtic fans started to kind of look at each other and go, we're in the three seed.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  No, they're in the mix, man.

• 1:30:06Bill Simmons?

  Tatum could be coming back in March. What's going on here?

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  They're in the mix and this was what the storyline going into here, we all knew was like it, the path was created, right? That like it's, it's the potential's there for a number of teams. Boston didn't seem like they were one of them, but I think they're looking at the top and going to Pistons and the Knicks. Like, yeah, we're okay playing those teams. Like, we're going to be okay.

• 1:30:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  If we get a seven game series with them, um, they've been, they've been one of the really surprising stories, especially the way the year started for them. For them to have flipped it around the way they have, man, just so impressive. And by the way, Christmas Day games are coming up. We talked about the very beginning. I got the Houston Lakers game in that eight, in that eight o'clock game. There's five games that day and I wish you could flex them. I keep my matchup that I'm calling, that I'm part of that crew calling that game. I'd keep that one. I want that game as the eight o'clock game.

• 1:30:55Bill Simmons?

  Flex Cleveland out, put the Celtics in?

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Let me ask you a question. No, I almost though, because here's the thing that's crazy. Only two of the 10 teams are from the Eastern Conference.

• 1:31:04Bill Simmons?

  Oof.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  There's only two Eastern Conference teams represented on Christmas Day and that is Cleveland and the Knicks. But first of all, I'd rather watch Detroit Knicks at noon.

• 1:31:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  That's the one I wanted first, especially since they haven't, they haven't played yet this year and they had that incredible series last year. That's the game at the Garden at noon on Christmas, two teams that, that practically got in a fight every game in the playoffs this year. You give me that to start my Christmas Day game. I got a weird one for you.

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  So we're, so we're fighting at the tables later, but Detroit and the Knicks start us off and then we can fight with our family after.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, at that, at noon, you're still kind of like, maybe those kids are still open in presence and people are talking a lot and, and so you got one eye on the game and all of a sudden you're looking up and they're eight minutes in and somebody, somebody's being thrown into the crowd and you're like, wait a second and it changes everything for like Christmas Day games, right?

• 1:31:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Here's another thing though. Did you know this? Like, so San Antonio is playing Oklahoma City on Christmas night.

• 1:32:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  They just played in the Emirates Cup. San Antonio beat them. Do you know that they're also playing on the December 23rd? They're playing back to back.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, it's a baseball series? Wow.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Opposite, um, opposite buildings. It's a home and home.

• 1:32:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  But it does not, not take a little of the edge off the Christmas Day game. Like they're playing on, they're playing on Tuesday.

• 1:32:25Bill Simmons?

  Counter. I could watch those teams play 20 times.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  All right. I hear you. I hear you. But for me, I, I wanted that to be.

• 1:32:33Bill Simmons?

  To be a little, like have a little more weight.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially since San Antonio just beat them and you're like, you know, Oklahoma City is going to want to get this back. Like.

• 1:32:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but I don't think, I don't think they knew San Antonio was going to be San Antonio when they scheduled that game.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  100% right.

• 1:32:47Bill Simmons?

  What was that over, like 44? Like, nobody knew they were going to be a contender. That, nobody knew Harper was going to look like this and Castle was going to go up a level.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  So there's only, there's only, there's only two other teams that I would put in this category of. Gosh, Boston Philly would be fun, man, because of their fun to watch. Maxie and Brown are like a show. That would be fun. You know, it's a decent rivalry, those two teams. So you got Dallas and Golden State, Christmas Day, like.

• 1:33:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a tough one.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  I mean, I want to see Cooper flag and they're playing a little bit better. Golden State's 500 team, but could you ever not want Steph Curry on Christmas Day?

• 1:33:24Bill Simmons?

  You need Steph.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  You have to have Steph Curry. So that's, so you get Dallas because you don't want an East Coast team versus West Coast team. So that took Philly and Boston out of the mix. Detroit to me is the team that kind of got slighted in this. They're number one seed in the East and they're sitting home watching Christmas Day.

• 1:33:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's tough because Cleveland won 64 last year, so you cannot have them. But yeah, you're right. I, I watched the Dallas game last night. I really enjoyed watching Dallas.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Bill Simmons?

  Now that Davis is back and looking like Davis again, I think they're fun. And then New Orleans has been.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Bill Simmons?

  Charlotte was the league pass MVP of the first quarter and now New Orleans has grabbed the reins. And it's just the most fascinating league pass team possible.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  By the way, how about, how about Con Kedipp, fastest guy to 100 made threes in a season ever?

• 1:34:11Bill Simmons?

  Also, I think he's 27. I think they need to investigate this more. Has anyone lied about their age before in the NBA?

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  He looks like the game could end, he could throw in a suit and go do someone's taxes.

• 1:34:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, something's fishy about it.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  I totally agree with that. Just his body type, like everything about.

• 1:34:27Bill Simmons?

  The way he moves, he knows how to switch already. He's always in the right spots.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Made threes in however many games they've played.

• 1:34:34Bill Simmons?

  24 games.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  Uh, 24 games and it took Steph Curry 58 games to get 100 threes.

• 1:34:39Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Well, I'm going to end with Steph Curry. And then you could go spend time with your family. Are we at the point where Curry to Charlotte, we should just do it? Like just is, can we, can we just, can the league intervene? Can this just be, I don't want to upset Warrior fans. I don't want to trade Steph Curry before Christmas, but. You know, he grew up there. There's his dad's there. There's shots of him on the court as a kid. He always joked about ending his career there. I don't think this Warriors team has any chance. We just saw Draymond blow up last night. Like, can we just do the LaMelo and a bunch of picks and send Curry back to Charlotte? And let's just go, let's do this.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  The only people that might object to that are their parents because Seth just got there to go to.

• 1:35:25Bill Simmons?

  Seth can be in the trade. We'll put him in too. The whole family will go.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Seth, if that's gonna happen.

• 1:35:29Bill Simmons?

  They're both Currys. Yeah.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  Think about what you're saying now. What you're talking about Splash Brothers or 2.0 with Curry and Knippel? Like, that's the new version of that?

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  Curry, Knippel, Brandon Miller, Bridges is there. We'll try to get them a center.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  One of the funnest guys in the league to watch.

• 1:35:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, I'm saying LaMelo's in the trade.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Oh, well, just trade LaMelo. I got for Curry. I got you. I got you.

• 1:35:51Bill Simmons?

  LaMelo and picks and other stuff for Curry. It'll never happen, but I was just like, if there was ever a time to get the Charlotte bandwagon going for the Curry's.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Do you think that Draymond Green's reaction to LaMelo Ball would be a little different than his reaction to Steph Curry?

• 1:36:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, Draymond's probably out too, but there is a blow it up scenario with Golden State. If they were like, hey, maybe we shouldn't pay $400 million a year for this team. And but I don't think he's ever leaving. I just wanted to.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  I know. And honestly, I don't want him to. I want.

• 1:36:20Bill Simmons?

  I don't either.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  I want it to be one of those ones where, you know, you don't have Journey going into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Steve Perry's not there. Like, I don't want that. I want them to finish.

• 1:36:31Bill Simmons?

  But you're still upset about that.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  I am. I just, I hate when it ends that way, man. You accomplish all this greatness together and then at the end, no one's talking to each other. Like the 90s Bulls teams. Like, it's like, look at what you guys did together and now you all hate each other. It's like.

• 1:36:45Bill Simmons?

  I think the 90s Bulls is more upsetting than Journey, and I'm upset by Journey. But the 90s Bulls, like, Pippen doesn't talk to anybody anymore. It sounds, these guys won six titles. They have a 10-part documentary about them. They had the most famous actor we've had.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  At least Journey did go find Arnell Pineda, which is probably the greatest replication of Steve Perry's voice you could possibly imagine. Continually found the guy on like YouTube in the Philippines or something and he ends up being now the, the lead for Journey for however long. Uh, but we digress. We could talk 80's rock.

• 1:37:18Bill Simmons?

  I love that you went full name for him.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Anytime you want to do a show on 80's rock music.

• 1:37:21Bill Simmons?

  It sounds like you're ready. Um, last thoughts on the commanders before we go on holidays?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  I, I was, I finally got over my, my month long anger, like real, real legitimate anger at what I perceived as a team that quit playing football. Um, I was just so, so disgusted. All the injuries piled up, but then they just stopped tackling all together. And I was just like, what, how could they do this to the fan base? You know, you get your, your season ticket renewal, they jack you up 20%, uh, you know, and you're based on this year and you're just like, what? I was so mad. I finally went back. I missed three straight home games that I normally would have gone to, to see the Eagles commanders. Last Sunday I, I went to the game. So I was back in the stadium. It felt good. I just want the season over as fast as possible.

• 1:38:07Bill Simmons?

  Chris Rodriguez jersey? What was going on?

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  I know, I know. I was so mad that I did not wear a jersey. And in fact, I had, I did have a sweatshirt on, but I covered it with a coat because it was really cold, like 38 degrees. So I covered it with a coat. I was not fanned out. I was not celebrating first downs like I normally do. I wasn't doing any of that stuff. I just sat there and I took an Eagles fan with me, a buddy of mine to the game, which I would never consider wanting to do something like that, but I didn't care. I want the season over. I don't want any more wins. I don't know why they beat the Giants a couple of weeks ago. I don't understand what they're doing. Just get the best pick you can at this.

• 1:38:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I think that, I think that's probably a new journey now.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  I just hope it's one year where it was this fluky thing with everyone being hurt. And I hope we're back next year again in the mix.

• 1:38:51Bill Simmons?

  He'll be fine. It's an old team that ended up having a lot of injuries, which was predictable, but the, the Daniels thing is probably more concerning because you have this RJ, RG3 shadow. From that whole era and you know, it's hard not to think about.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  He's had four injuries in a year and a half to miss time. Four. Like that's, it's like, man. So I'm nervous about that for sure. I'm just hoping that, okay, we win four games, get a high pick, and let's move on. Get everybody healthy in the offseason, kind of reinvent certain positions. And I just hope they're back relevant again. They don't take the playoffs every year, but you can't, you can't give me NFC championship game to this. You can't do that. It's not, that's not right for the fan base, the loyal, the loyalists like myself.

• 1:39:34Bill Simmons?

  We'll see you on Christmas. I hope you get a great game. I look forward to watching it. Happy holidays. Thanks as always for coming up.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Appreciate it, Bill. Happy holidays.

• 1:39:43Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun with Expedia? Save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just

• 1:40:27Bill Simmons?

  sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. All right, Joe House is here shortly before one of his favorite days of the year, Christmas, which is the second most you eat other than Thanksgiving.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the, the nice thing about where Christmas falls on the calendar this year is that today is my favorite day. It's Christmas Adam today. Tomorrow's Christmas Eve, and then we have Christmas. I just got back from a lunch of giant iced raw bar platter of Chesapeake Bay oysters, spiced shrimp with some delicious Old Bay, and maybe a couple of Frozays, maybe a couple.

• 1:41:15Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say, you, you seem like you're not sick anymore and you have your energy back.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  'Tis the season, brother. 'Tis the season.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  So you've decided you have enough white blood cells in your body again to just start drinking during the day?

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  Just day drinking. That's what Christmas is for.

• 1:41:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, Christmas is awesome for comebacks. Just everyone's getting annihilated in Ringer 107. This is now the worst regular season I think I've had.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  Not Shield. Shield was cooking.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  What did Shield do?

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:41:43Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God. I almost went 0-5.

• 1:41:47Bill Simmons?

  I need to win 10 straight just to finish with 500. I'm already focused on the playoffs. I'm already thinking ahead. Playoffs are all that matters. Unlike the Chiefs.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  Why didn't you take the Titans last week? That was my, one of my favorite bets of the week.

• 1:42:00Bill Simmons?

  Schrager was guesting for you and he talked me out of the Titans.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  Come on. That was a, I gave out, uh, the Titans. I gave out the Saints plus Shuck over 275. That was a plus.

• 1:42:13Bill Simmons?

  You did that, you did that on Sunday. We're making the picks on Thursday.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Nobody asked me. I would have, I loved the Saints last week.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  I should have asked you.

• 1:42:21Speaker 02

  It's okay. You're allowed.

• 1:42:23Bill Simmons?

  I was so disgruntled with picks and everything. I didn't, I didn't, I've passed the point of caring. But now I care because we have to get ready for playoffs again.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  Well, this is miserable because week 17 and week 18 have nothing but like incredible variance all over them.

• 1:42:38Bill Simmons?

  I had an awesome gambling week in real life.

• 1:42:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too. Great one.

• 1:42:43Bill Simmons?

  And then, uh, I gave some of it back last night with a Colts under tease. The under lost with like five minutes into the game. But I don't know what happened to the Colts defense. And then on the flip side, I don't know what to make of the Niners offense because they now look like the 99 Rams.

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  Respectfully, again, Ringer Gambling Show, first part of Monday, I gave out the San Francisco money line. Parlayed with the Colts over 20 and a half. That only paid out plus 280. That was a plus 280 parlay that I gave out to all of America first part of Monday. Because.

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  Thought there was a great chance the Colts would be able to move the ball against that San Francisco.

• 1:43:25Bill Simmons?

  I did too. That's why I took them plus five and a half. I didn't realize they give up 48.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  We also talked about the fact, the Seattle had six scoring drives against this Colts defense. The difference is they were all field goals.

• 1:43:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:43Speaker 02

  If half of those were touchdowns, that game wouldn't have been close.

• 1:43:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  San Francisco has been absolutely cooking since Purdy came back. Four and O straight up, four and O against the spread going into last night. Every win by double digits. Well, let's just make it five in a row. Five and O against the spread, five and O straight up, five straight games by double digits.

• 1:44:04Bill Simmons?

  And we might be taking them again this week.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  Might be.

• 1:44:06Bill Simmons?

  I like for Jose House. Maybe this is where we needed to go for the picks. This could be the last thing that saves it. Drunk House just needed to come back. Drunk House got sick.

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  I'm right here, baby.

• 1:44:15Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't be drunk house. Now you're back.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Old fashioned, Froze. It's the season.

• 1:44:20Bill Simmons?

  We have three Christmas games that include.

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  Negroni with, with Rye. Go ahead.

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  Negroni with Rye. We have Washington, your favorite team, plus seven against Dallas, who now has somehow the worst DVOA defense in the league. They passed the Bengals this week.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  They passed Washington.

• 1:44:35Bill Simmons?

  The Bengals were in historical conversations for having the worst DVO defense of all time.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:40Bill Simmons?

  And by week 17, they'd been passed by the Cowboys. Uh, and I thought your team looked pretty good last week for a bad team.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  They were gonna, they were, that was gonna be really fun coming down the stretch until Mariota got hurt. As soon as he went out, I was like, oh, fuck, this is a double digit loss.

• 1:44:55Bill Simmons?

  If Mariota didn't get hurt.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  They can move the ball against that, that Eagles defense and they were moving the ball against the Eagles defense.

• 1:45:01Bill Simmons?

  So who is the quarterback this week for the Washington team?

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  I believe it is going to be Jeff Driscoll, spelled with a K. D R I S K E L.

• 1:45:13Bill Simmons?

  Cross it off.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  I already have bets. Uh, you know, the line was six and a half, Dallas, six and a half. I, I jumped all over. I get every bit of that I, I could.

• 1:45:24Bill Simmons?

  Um, that's a complete stay away.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  No, I'm just, I understand, but they're gonna, they're gonna beat Washington's ass.

• 1:45:31Bill Simmons?

  And yet Dallas isn't good. So who knows? Uh, next one Vikings Lions Vikings plus seven in that game and uh, Brosmer is probably playing because JJ McCarthy got hurt. Brosmer wasn't bad last week. Brosmer? Brosmer?

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  Brosmer. I think it's bro. It's Brosmer with a bro.

• 1:45:49Bill Simmons?

  The bro wasn't bad last week.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  The bro, that's what we're calling them.

• 1:45:53Bill Simmons?

  You know, he's gonna make him look good. He's a Lions defense that stinks.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  They stink. Holy cow. They picked my pocket last week.

• 1:46:01Bill Simmons?

  I think this line's a little high.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  I agree with you.

• 1:46:04Bill Simmons?

  I wanna, I don't wanna stay away from the first two Christmas games.

• 1:46:10Speaker 02

  Let's get involved.

• 1:46:11Bill Simmons?

  This is Netflix, right? This is our friends at Netflix.

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  They are our friends. We would never steer them wrong. Let's get involved here.

• 1:46:17Bill Simmons?

  They're gonna have to rig one of these games to make them exciting. So why not this one? Vikings plus seven. I uh, watched that whole Vikings Giants game last week because I had the Vikings in a five-team money line parlay that uh, that Baker Mayfield ended up sodomizing. But the Vikings plus seven with the ability to run the ball, with the ability to uh, blitz a Detroit team that has no offensive line?

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:44Bill Simmons?

  Feels like a closer game than seven.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  I, I mean, division game, Vikings at home. Um, the Vikings very quietly, their defense has been very steady over like the last six weeks or so. Uh, I like, it should have been my wise wager on Sunday. I like them against the Giants. Um, I think that they can win.

• 1:47:05Bill Simmons?

  That would have, that barely won though.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  It barely won. I know.

• 1:47:08Bill Simmons?

  Barely won.

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  But it was, it was, the defense won the game for them. And ultimately that, that, this, this, this number's too fat. What, what, what world are we living in where the Lions deserve a full touchdown? That, that, that, that, that team, that's a clown show over there.

• 1:47:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, the other thing is they can't block.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  Cannot.

• 1:47:26Bill Simmons?

  And it just seems like a nice matchup for uh, the Vikings team. This feels a little square to me, but um,

• 1:47:32Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't.

• 1:47:33Bill Simmons?

  I think it's, it's just because of Brosmer, right?

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  Jonathan Green is not playing. Um, he's out for the rest of the season. He is their top, the Vikings top pass rusher. So that would be part of like, uh, why you would be.

• 1:47:44Bill Simmons?

  Everybody's missing two guys at this point.

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:48Bill Simmons?

  I also really like the Broncos in the third game, which is going to be on Amazon. They're minus 12 and a half against the Chiefs as we do this. The Chiefs have Chris Oladukun, what's his name?

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  Oladukandi?

• 1:48:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Michael Oladukandi is the quarterback for the Chiefs.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Oladukand Oladukandi.

• 1:48:08Bill Simmons?

  So the Chiefs showed us what, how they plan on handling the rest of the season by not winning or competing.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  Well, let me ask you this, on that very point, is this the farewell game for Kelsey?

• 1:48:23Bill Simmons?

  Where's he going?

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  To make five babies with Taylor Swift. She might already have two of them right now.

• 1:48:30Bill Simmons?

  They might not be a week 18 Kelsey, you're saying? So he just plays?

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  Well, do they have?

• 1:48:36Bill Simmons?

  And this is why, he says he's retiring after the game.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  Isn't this their last home game?

• 1:48:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he'll play in week 18.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  But I'm saying, for his home crowd, this could be the farewell game for both Kelsey. What's the announcement? Are they gonna do a deal with Arrowhead Stadium? Are they gonna keep one of the venerable, venerated stadiums in all of professional football? Or are they gonna move to fucking Kansas?

• 1:49:01Bill Simmons?

  I thought they were, first of all, I researched this. It doesn't seem like a big deal that they're moving. It's Missouri and Kansas. They share Kansas City.

• 1:49:08Speaker 02

  Not a big deal. It's Arrowhead Stadium.

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  Arrowhead's the oldest stadium in the league. They have to get rid of it.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  Like, you know, oh, they're moving from, it'll be at Green Bay. Oh, we're moving from Lambeau 20 minutes away to, you know.

• 1:49:21Bill Simmons?

  All right, bite your tongue. Arrowhead is not Lambeau.

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  Brother.

• 1:49:24Bill Simmons?

  When we were growing up, we were like, hey, someday we gotta go to a game at Arrowhead. Come on. It's fine.

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  It's achieved quite a bit. I mean, a lot of great, a lot of things have happened there over the last 15, over the last decade.

• 1:49:38Bill Simmons?

  We lost, we lost Sullivan Stadium once upon a time, the New England Patriots. Yeah, the Patriots fans. And the best game ever played in Sullivan Stadium was the last game ever, the snow game.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Well, this is what I'm getting at.

• 1:49:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You think there's gonna be a motion?

• 1:49:55Speaker 02

  What if? What? It's a what if?

• 1:49:59Bill Simmons?

  What are you talking about?

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  12 and a half. It was my favorite bet last week was the Titans on the money line. Titans at home against that completely decimated Chiefs.

• 1:50:07Bill Simmons?

  I had it. Um, what if I had parlayed Denver at six and a half and took the under to 43 and a half? And bet that these teams could not get to 44 points if they had seven quarters?

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  That part is fine. You would just be worried about Denver getting it. Because Denver was embarrassed. Yeah, they were embarrassed by the way that the Jaguars passed them last week.

• 1:50:29Bill Simmons?

  Sounds like this is a stay away. I mean, we could also just take the Broncos minus 12 and a half and think it's a sad game.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Chiefs last game is at Vegas. This is their last.

• 1:50:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Kelsey's playing in that one.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  You know, it's not that he's playing. This is a Christmas game in prime time, on Prime Video. Kelsey and Arrowhead, possibly the farewell for both of them. It just, you know, I don't want to get in front of that.

• 1:50:57Bill Simmons?

  Think the NFL is causing it in?

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  They have injuries on defense and that's really the reason why you would be like, go ahead and just lay the points. But I don't know, man.

• 1:51:07Bill Simmons?

  The NFL tried to call in the Ravens-Pats game and Drake May had other ideas. They boned us at nine calls.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  And Harbaugh, holy cow. How can that guy come back? How can that guy possibly come back next year?

• 1:51:19Bill Simmons?

  It's like, I don't understand why Derrick Henry didn't play.

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  Do we have Derrick Henry on our team? Is he even on our team?

• 1:51:25Bill Simmons?

  He had the series off.

• 1:51:26Speaker 02

  They've not given his resignation letter already.

• 1:51:29Bill Simmons?

  Ravens Packers, Ravens plus two and a half. Ironically, the Ravens. Green Bay is in it. Green Bay is in if Detroit loses. We just had to look up before we came on who the Packers' third string quarterback was and his name is Clayton Toon.

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  Toon. Mr. Toon's parents are very proud of him.

• 1:51:48Bill Simmons?

  The Ravens, I gotta be honest, slightly hampered Lamar versus Huntley. I'm not sure there's a major difference. It's not like going from Mahomes to, who's the third string guy in the Chiefs again?

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Toon.

• 1:52:02Bill Simmons?

  Chris Oduke?

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  Oh, Ola Candy.

• 1:52:05Bill Simmons?

  Chris Oduke, Michael Ola Candy?

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:09Bill Simmons?

  I was, there's a parlay possibility here Ravens plus four and a half with the under 54 and a half. It's a night game at Lambeau. What are the odds this game has 55 points?

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  Not betting any more money on the Ravens. The Ravens can go fuck themselves. That, that, the way they ended that game, remember, we've only had two shenanigan games out of the hot trash Ravens this season. The very first game of the season against Buffalo, when they were up by 15 points with seven minutes left, and then the hot trash, let's find a way, how can we lose this football game? Let's invent it. Over the last 10 minutes, when we're up 10 points against the Patriots with our goddamn season on the line, all we have to do is win this football game. We're up 10 with 10 minutes left, and then we can rest week 17, everybody get healthy and go win the division week 18. Can we go do that? Nope. No chance. We're clowns.

• 1:53:03Bill Simmons?

  We're, we're, we're. He left out the part they were going against 2010 Aaron Rodgers combined with John O'Way and Drake May. Left out that part.

• 1:53:12Speaker 02

  Say whatever you want. A, a, a beat up Patriots offensive line. Uh,

• 1:53:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, didn't matter. Drake May got pressured 47% of the time.

• 1:53:21Speaker 02

  Patriots missing the middle of their defense. Is it exploitable? Nope. Not, not, not by the Ravens. Not Keaton Mitchell. Make sure we, we have a rotation. Got to get Keaton Mitchell all of his touches in the fourth quarter.

• 1:53:33Bill Simmons?

  Derek can resolve. They're trying to rest him.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  They did. He's going to get a lot of rest this offseason when they're not in the playoffs.

• 1:53:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm marking down Ravens plus four and a half with under 45 and a half as a parlay.

• 1:53:42Speaker 02

  You go nuts. I want no part of it.

• 1:53:45Bill Simmons?

  Uh, Jags, Jags and Texans Colts. Here's the scenario. Colts are alive. They have to win twice. They have to hope Houston loses twice. Jaguars win the AFC South with a win and a Texans loss. Colts are out if Houston wins. And Colts Texans playing week 18.

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  Right. It's not that you're, they're hoping that they, they, Houston loses twice. They could beat Houston. That's how they have to do it. They had to beat Houston in week 18.

• 1:54:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, they're going to know on Sunday because on Saturday, the Chargers host the Texans. And if the Chargers win that game, nothing the Colts do matter. And I don't even know does Phil Rivers say like, okay, guys, I'll see you later. I got the Chargers into the playoffs. I'm good. That was my goal. But Jags are minus five and a half against the Colts. You do a little parlay action with that one. You could go Jags minus one and a half and the over 41 and a half works in the contest rules, but we'll do Chargers Texans first. I watched every play of that Texans game Sunday because I had my fantasy season relying on CJ Stroud and Nico Collins, and they had so much trouble moving the ball against Vegas and a good pass rush.

• 1:54:55Bill Simmons?

  They can't run the ball because Woody Marks is hurt and they just have no other threats. Stroud was legitimately bad. We saw and I talked about it on Sunday. And now they're playing this Chargers team that all they do is play really good defense. They can run the ball now to running backs. Herbert has been great for a month and they win every week. So A, why am I taking the Texans in that game when they're playing a better version of the Raiders? So they barely won last week. B, Chargers can just put shit away with this, right?

• 1:55:29Bill Simmons?

  And then C, if Houston loses, that keeps Jags Colts alive, which I think the NFL likes when that happens. Just throwing that out there too.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Fair point. Here's my concern.

• 1:55:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:45Speaker 02

  I don't think Houston prepared for that Vegas game as though it was a potential playoff game for them. I think that they did a game plan that was the old, just enough, the old Milton Berle.

• 1:55:58Bill Simmons?

  I, I thought that as watching, I was getting mad. They're just trying not to do anything, basically.

• 1:56:03Speaker 02

  My, my, so first of all, I want, we want confirmation about Woody Marks. What's, how's he looking for, for that game on Saturday? But more importantly, the thing that concerns me is Houston has a defense that is equal to or superior to the Eagles. And the way that the Eagles played the Chargers in LA, I expect to see something that is very close, very close, seven sacks, 70% pressure. And the Chargers won that game because they let Jalen Hurts just go ahead and, and, and beat himself and, and take the Eagles, uh, you know, completely out of that game.

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  That defense for Houston can take away every single thing that the Chargers want to do. Their pressure to me is superior to what the Eagles.

• 1:57:02Bill Simmons?

  So I would have agreed with you until I watched the Raiders.

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:57:05Bill Simmons?

  Open guys.

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  I understand. I get it.

• 1:57:07Bill Simmons?

  Floor, run the ball and have explosive plays. And I thought the only case for it is that Houston was just looking ahead to the week later and that's it. Because they were bad. They're bad on both sides and I thought they deserved to lose.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  Oh, they could have lost. They definitely could have.

• 1:57:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they would. They definitely, uh, they blew everybody's 10-point teases if you did those. They barely covered the Houston money line stuff that everybody had. So it sounds like, well, then Jags Colts. I just, I don't know if the Jags lose again this season. I think, I think they have the eye of the tiger. I don't want to even think about going against them until the playoffs. So it sounds like you like the Texans more than the Chargers.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  I think I do. I have so much respect for the Chargers.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  I'm tired of going against the Chargers.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 1:57:57Bill Simmons?

  Feel like they stick it to me every time.

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  You know, they're, they were underdogs in all three games. They were underdogs against the, the Eagles. They were underdogs against the Chiefs. They were underdogs against Dallas. And all they do is come out and play really, really, really impressive defense. Their defense has been outstanding for the past month.

• 1:58:17Bill Simmons?

  Herbert was really good last week too.

• 1:58:18Speaker 02

  That's a, that's the toughest mother effort. You, you know, we, we, a lot of people, including us, have had a lot of fun at his expense. But that's one tough big boy. He has been playing big boy football now, taking the hits. You know, part of the handicap for why I thought the Eagles had a nice chance. That left hand was all banged up, him going down on it. He can't run. It doesn't matter. He just takes it. He takes it like a man. I've been so impressed.

• 1:58:45Bill Simmons?

  I still might take the Chargers as one of my picks. I really cooled off on Houston after last week. It might be an overreaction.

• 1:58:51Speaker 02

  Completely understandable.

• 1:58:52Bill Simmons?

  I was really unimpressed.

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  I get it.

• 1:58:54Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Vegas is good.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  I'm not arguing with you. I am not arguing with you. I understand.

• 1:58:58Bill Simmons?

  Seahawks, Panthers plus seven and a half at home against the Seahawks. Weirdest line of the week.

• 1:59:04Bill Simmons?

  What did you make of it?

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  Seahawks roll. This is, this is the, you know, the Panthers are every other week and their season comes down to, to week 18. Um, you know, they, they have to beat Tampa again. That's it. That's, that's why Tampa's favored to win the division. That's why, you know, the, the, the, like, the Panthers handled Tampa, no problem whatsoever. I, I love Seattle here.

• 1:59:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, so there's a world where if the Dolphins beat the Bucks, the Panthers could actually win the division this week if they somehow beat Seattle. I think the line's a little too high, but it also makes me suspicious. Why is the line so high? Why should we trust Seattle on the road on grass and in Sam Darnold's own haunts in Carolina?

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  Seattle's been awesome on the road. I think that they have covered nearly every game for two years. They've only lost twice on the road in, into there. It's an awesome team under Mike McDonald, an awesome road team.

• 2:00:00Bill Simmons?

  So Niners, Bears, Niners minus three against the Bears. If Green Bay loses Saturday night, the Bears clinch the NFC South. And the Bears have now had six come from behind wins in the last two minutes, which has only happened, uh, zero times since 1970. And the Niners are looking really good. The Bears should have lost last week. If the Bears had lost last week, if they just lose 16 to nine, what's the line for this game?

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a great question. Four and a half, five?

• 2:00:29Bill Simmons?

  Four and a half, yeah. So getting an onside kick gave, gave them an extra point and a half.

• 2:00:34Speaker 02

  Romeo Dobbs did it. He gave it to them.

• 2:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Is there some recency bias with how good the Niners looked? And now you're peak of the market with the Niners?

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  Five weeks. Is that recency bias? One of the most efficient offenses in the NFL.

• 2:00:47Bill Simmons?

  I like Niners minus three.

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  Me too. We're, we're in lockstep on this.

• 2:00:50Bill Simmons?

  Okay. What, what game did I not mention that you like?

• 2:00:54Speaker 02

  I think the Eagles have something up their sleeve. They still have an outside chance at the two seed. Um, it's a long shot. But with, if, if this Bears team, um, loses, now the Bears will, will know the outcome of Eagles, Bills going, yeah, on Monday night.

• 2:01:17Speaker 02

  I think

• 2:01:17Bill Simmons?

  So that's in Buffalo and the Eagles are plus one and a half.

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  They're getting back both Jalen Carter and most importantly, Lane Johnson. Lane Johnson's definitely going to play and Bills are beat up. They came out of that Cleveland game. Allen's got something going on with with.

• 2:01:35Bill Simmons?

  Allen's hurt. He has a bad ankle. Yeah.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever that that thing is. Jordan Poyer seems like he's going to be out.

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  And I this Eagles team, the defense has been outstanding for the most part. Other than the second half against Dallas. They've been very, very stout. This is a game where, you know, this is a, you know, state your class game. Eagles win out, they still have a chance at that two seed. It's not, you know, that they need the Bears to lose both.

• 2:02:11Speaker 02

  But that's, that's, that's conceivable. Bears have two tough games left.

• 2:02:15Bill Simmons?

  I thought the, I thought the Bills defense was alarming last week against Cleveland. And if Cleveland was any good at all, they would have won the game. They just couldn't really put it together, but they were getting explosive plays with guys you'd never heard of. It's still really hard for the Bills to move the ball without the explosive plays. They're just putting so much pressure on Cook. I feel like the Eagles should be able to take Cook out, right?

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:40Bill Simmons?

  Kind of shrink the field, make Allen try to beat them over the top. I, I like the Eagles as well. I think that's a good point about, are we sure Carter and Lane Johnson are coming back?

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  Lane Johnson definitely back.

• 2:02:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay. All right, well, we have five unless there's another game you like.

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  No, I'm happy. I wanted to make sure we got the, the Eagles and the Niners were my two favorite.

• 2:03:06Bill Simmons?

  Eagles and the Niners. Well, that's great because I didn't know that and I really like the Niners. Okay, so we have. Today's Ranger 107 brought to you by Fanduel, hoping to change our luck this week. It's been a pretty gruesome year. I still feel good about the playoffs though.

• 2:03:21Speaker 02

  I mean cheers to us.

• 2:03:22Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I'm gonna keep my process the way it's always been. Sometimes it's not, and by the way, if people want to go against us every week, great. I just hope people get picks either way.

• 2:03:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:33Bill Simmons?

  First one, Christmas Day Vikings plus seven against the Lions who have no offensive line and no defense. And we don't really care who the quarterback for Minnesota is. Minnesota's defense can carry this one. Ugly game, probably a little under. And I think the Vikings could actually win and so does Joe House. It's a possible, it's a money line play.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  It's a money line play.

• 2:03:53Bill Simmons?

  But we're gonna take the plus seven and we get a touchdown. That's the first one. Second one, parlay. House didn't love this one, but I like the fact that Clayton Tune might play for the Packers in this game. Saturday night, Ravens, if they played Derrick Henry with seven minutes left, did they just beat the Pats? And we feel great about them? Probably.

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  Who can say? Ask Coach Harbaugh.

• 2:04:14Bill Simmons?

  Parlay Ravens plus four and a half, under 54 and a half. Let's go 55 points combined to beat this with Clayton Tune or Malik Willis, maybe Tyler Huntley. I don't see 55 points.

• 2:04:27Speaker 02

  Free base defense is excellent. It's fine.

• 2:04:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't see 55 points.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  It's your pick, not mine.

• 2:04:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think it's a three point game. I'm getting four and a half. I might win. And I don't think it's high scoring. There's two.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:04:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm deliberately defying House on this one. This is one of my picks. Chargers minus one and a half against the Texans.

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  The 50 50 game. Well, I'm not gonna say anything disrespectful about the Chargers.

• 2:04:52Bill Simmons?

  You know, I was one of the leaders of the Texans defense is awesome being regular. I didn't like how they looked at all against the Raiders last week.

• 2:04:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:04:59Bill Simmons?

  And I don't like that they're giving up plays up and down the field and big plays. And I just want a little more. Chargers minus one and a half, all their offensive weapons are back. They've learned how to play without their tackles. Herbert has gone up a level. I like Harbaugh over the Texans coaching staff in close games.

• 2:05:18Speaker 02

  Fine, fine.

• 2:05:18Bill Simmons?

  We've seen Harbaugh do this.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Understandable.

• 2:05:21Bill Simmons?

  Think they can run the ball. If the Chargers win this. The Texans keep the Colts alive. And if the Colts can somehow beat the Jaguars, we would have a Colts Houston game that means something. People are starting to get worried about there being no week 18 game that has any sauce.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  I mean Panthers Bucks is going to be there.

• 2:05:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's what I mean. Does that game have sauce? Do you want to watch that game last Sunday? Did you enjoy it?

• 2:05:49Speaker 02

  It's the worst kind of sauce that's out there. I can't even come up with a bad sauce because I love sauces.

• 2:05:55Bill Simmons?

  Special sauce. Remember we were in Jersey Shore that time with Jacko? And we went to Mr. G's and they had the omelet with the Mr. G's special sauce. And we made like a million jokes about Mr. G.

• 2:06:06Speaker 02

  Did anyone eat it? I don't remember.

• 2:06:08Bill Simmons?

  I was scared. I didn't know how Mr. G was depleting his sauce. All right, so that's pick three. Niners minus three Bears. We're both aligned on this one. And by the way, if Green Bay loses on Saturday night, the Bears clinch this NFC South, would have the one seed to maybe play for? Not that realistic, but that line probably goes up. And then last but not least, we both like the Eagles and Buffalo against a Buffalo team that barely hung on against Cleveland last week. The Eagles might be getting some guys back house. Carter, Lane Johnson.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 2:06:40Bill Simmons?

  Could this be the game where the Eagles tease everyone into thinking they're back? And the NFC runs through them? Maybe.

• 2:06:46Speaker 02

  Maybe. No, this is a game. It lines up the same way where we watched the Eagles go into Green Bay. And it's just this super low scoring. Their defense dominates. It's like that kind of game.

• 2:07:00Bill Simmons?

  It'll be interesting to see if the Eagles can force Josh Allen to not be in a fun game. That was today's Ranger 107 brought to you by FanDuel. Odds subject to change. Any NBA thoughts you want to throw in before we go? I just did 90 minutes of Legor.

• 2:07:16Speaker 02

  Um, whatever the line is for that Cleveland, I like the Knicks on the money line.

• 2:07:21Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you want to do Christmas game?

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  I've got a couple, I've got a couple of thoughts, you know, a couple of games that I got, uh, circle like the over.

• 2:07:28Bill Simmons?

  So you don't want, you want to take the dysfunctional Cavs on Christmas? Dysfunctional family Cavs?

• 2:07:34Speaker 02

  I did give out again on the Monday show, the line for the, the Charlotte Hornets in Cleveland. Cleveland was laying nine and a half. I said, please everybody run right now. It's middle of the day, Monday. I know you're busy Christmas shopping. Get to the sports book, grab the nine and a half. That's a big fat winner. Of course it was a big fat winner right out there. Charlotte lost by seven. Not, not, not 10 though. That's a winner.

• 2:07:59Bill Simmons?

  They were down the whole game too. Yeah. So we have Knicks minus six. We have OKC minus 11 and a half against San Antonio.

• 2:08:07Speaker 02

  That's too rich. Too many points.

• 2:08:09Bill Simmons?

  Dallas plus 235 against Golden State. The Rockets minus 180 against the Lakers. I have no idea who's playing for the Lakers. And then Minnesota plus 158 against Denver. You want to do a little five teamer just for fun?

• 2:08:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Christmas.

• 2:08:25Bill Simmons?

  Maybe we'll change our luck.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  It's Christmas. Let's see what we can do here.

• 2:08:28Bill Simmons?

  Okay. So Knicks money line?

• 2:08:32Speaker 02

  Great. On board with that.

• 2:08:34Bill Simmons?

  OKC money line?

• 2:08:36Speaker 02

  That's fine.

• 2:08:38Bill Simmons?

  They have. You don't want to do the OKC money line?

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  That line is seven, by the way. What number did you say that was?

• 2:08:43Bill Simmons?

  For what?

• 2:08:44Speaker 02

  Oklahoma City, uh, and San Antonio.

• 2:08:47Bill Simmons?

  I have 11 and a half on Thursday. The Tuesday line is seven.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Tuesday line is seven. Yep, I got it.

• 2:08:54Bill Simmons?

  All right. OKC minus 560.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:57Bill Simmons?

  Dallas plus 235 or Golden State minus 290? Will Draymond even be on the team on Christmas?

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  Steph Curry going to come out on Christmas? Do we, well, I mean, here's the problem. We're doing this Tuesday. Who the hell knows who's going to play in any of these games?

• 2:09:15Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like Dallas. Want to take Dallas plus seven and a half?

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  Okay, that's fine. I'm, I'm good with that.

• 2:09:22Bill Simmons?

  Rockets Lakers Rockets money line?

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  You know what I prefer with that one? The line, it's 228 and a half, the total. I think that's a.

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  Fly over a super fly over two 28 and a half like.

• 2:09:36Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 2:09:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna do the Rockets minus 180 as well.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:09:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, let's do money lines. The overs are too hard.

• 2:09:44Speaker 02

  Okay, fine.

• 2:09:45Bill Simmons?

  Do the minus, do 28 on your own time. Minnesota, Denver, Denver minus five, Denver minus 188. And Anthony Edwards, never afraid of Denver at any point.

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:09:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't like Minnesota.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  Interesting. So we would put two dogs into this five legger, huh? Minnesota and Dallas.

• 2:10:03Bill Simmons?

  That's a giant parlay. Dallas plus seven and a half, Houston money line, Minnesota money line.

• 2:10:11Bill Simmons?

  Wow, that's a big ass number.

• 2:10:12Speaker 02

  The giant.

• 2:10:15Bill Simmons?

  Wow. $100 to win 1,233?

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  So it's plus. Better than 10 to one.

• 2:10:22Bill Simmons?

  Better than 12 to one odds.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  12 to one.

• 2:10:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Knicks, OKC, Dallas plus seven and a half, Houston, Minnesota money line.

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I like it based on what we've seen thus far this season.

• 2:10:38Bill Simmons?

  Is there anyone you don't feel great about out of those five?

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 2:10:41Bill Simmons?

  That you throw out Dallas? You want to do the Golden State money instead?

• 2:10:45Speaker 02

  That would be my preference, but that's okay. I don't mind. This is how we get it juiced up. And I understand Dallas is playing hard. They just don't have enough scoring at the end of games.

• 2:10:55Bill Simmons?

  Golden State, if it's Golden State money, that's plus eight 39. I like the Dallas plus seven and a half.

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  You do both.

• 2:11:00Bill Simmons?

  All right. Let's see, maybe Fando will throw that on their Christmas thing for us.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  There you go. They can make a little tree and put these, these are the ornaments hanging down.

• 2:11:10Bill Simmons?

  House, go back to your rosé.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  Make sure there's a picture.

• 2:11:13Bill Simmons?

  See if you can make yourself sick.

• 2:11:14Speaker 02

  It's the Froze, not the rosé. It's frozen. Christmas season, yeah.

• 2:11:19Bill Simmons?

  Froze, that was the same thing.

• 2:11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:21Bill Simmons?

  You almost got me in, got me in marital trouble.

• 2:11:25Speaker 02

  It's a trial separation. I drank it all.

• 2:11:28Bill Simmons?

  You broke my Froze machine.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  I didn't break it. I just drank it all. It wasn't broken.

• 2:11:32Bill Simmons?

  It was gone.

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  It's emptied it. Then I went to bed at nine o'clock like an adult.

• 2:11:37Bill Simmons?

  Good luck with the gambling. Happy holidays.

• 2:11:38Speaker 02

  Let's go. Happy holidays. Good job by us.

• 2:11:42Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs, thanks to House, thanks to Eduardo, thanks to Gahow. Don't forget rewatchables. Three up in the last week and a half. High Fidelity, sure thing. And then F1. So enough content for me, at least, I think, to keep everybody busy over the holidays, not to mention all the other stuff you're watching and consuming. Have a great holiday. Thanks for all the, all the support in 2025. Enjoy your fams. I hope you stay safe and I will see you on Sunday night with Cousins out.

• 2:12:32Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 100 gambler, visit rg-help.com, call 888-797777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-8HOPENY, or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, starring the Sharp Witted comedy thriller from Academy

• 2:13:14Bill Simmons?

  Award winner, Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot at pure entertainment. And easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats and easy entertaining.

• 2:13:58Bill Simmons?

  Elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or New York strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics. And as the fall evenings draw in, why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lozenges and supplements? Make sure you look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market.