Pod Insights The Bill Simmons Podcast An NBA Six-Pack, Netflix’s WBD Pursuit, NFL Picks, and John Cena Finally Stops By, With Joe House and Matt Belloni About this episode The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to crack open a six-pack of NBA opinions before making their Ringer 107 picks (5:01). Then, Matt Belloni joins to talk about the impending Warner Bros. Discovery sale (01:08:26). Finally, John Cena joins the show to discuss his decision to walk away from WWE, getting his first drink with The Undertaker, and much more! (01:42:52)
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Joe House, Matt Belloni, and John Cena
Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Kevin Cureghian
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Transcript 39,197 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary.
0:34 Bill Simmons? The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming for you on Monday. Hopefully, we are recording it tomorrow. There's a special guest. I don't want to jinx it and tell you what movie it is, but I will tweet it from the rewatchables account tomorrow after we record, after I know we've recorded it. But it's going to be a fun one. I'm excited about it. I am recording the intro for a very long podcast. It's, what time is it? 8:46 Pacific time. PT, I wanted to wait until after. Lions-Cowboys. Because this Cowboys renaissance was so much fun. Who knows? They'd won today. They would have had a chance to put some real heat on the Eagles. Of course, they lost. They couldn't stop the Lions. The Lions' offense just did whatever it wanted. Dallas is now 6-6-1.
1:18 Bill Simmons? They're not out of the playoffs. It's not looking great. They would have to sweep home Vikings, home Chargers, at Washington on Christmas, at Giants to finish 10-6-1. I think the ship that has sailed is the NFC East, because the Eagles are 8-4. At the Chargers this weekend, House and I are about to do Ringer 107 picks. We both think the Eagles can beat the Chargers. They're home for the Raiders, a home and home with Washington and at Buffalo. So I just feels like Philly's going to get to probably 11-6 somehow. So the ship has sailed for Dallas, except for wild card. But they just lost to one of the teams that they would have been competing for the wild card. So this might have been it. It would have been fun. One of the reasons I want to wait for the intro, because if Dallas did beat Detroit tonight, and I actually thought they were going to hang.
2:03 Bill Simmons? C.D. Lamb got a concussion fairly early in the game, which didn't help them. But it would have been funny if they won this one, because there would have been a real, maybe Jerry Jones was the smart guy all along case. But that is, that ship has sailed too, and probably Dallas' playoff hopes have also sailed. So for big picture, I think we have...
2:26 Bill Simmons? Probably know who eight of the seven playoff teams are. If we go Rams, Chicago, Seattle, Philly, Green Bay, San Francisco, Tampa, and Detroit. That's probably the list barring a collapse from somebody. So if somebody's going to get bounced, we'll see what happens. It still might be Detroit. That was a must win for them tonight. They're in five. So we'll see how it goes. They play at the Rams next week, which will have ramifications all over the place. Anyway, um, on the podcast today, House and I are going to talk some basketball at the top, and then we're going to do Ringer 107 picks. Matt Belloni comes on next because we want to talk about this Warner Brothers sale. And then last but not least, John Cena, finally. First time I've ever had him on my old pod, on this pod, first time we've ever had John Cena,
3:10 Bill Simmons? and we go for a hundred minutes. And he came to the studio and I had a great time. So I got to update the Belloni part really quickly, which I still think holds because we talked about all the, uh, all the possibilities, all the ramifications. But, um, we recorded it six hours ago and Bloomberg, Lucas Shaw, our friend, and Michelle F. Davis reported that Warner Brothers has entered exclusive negotiations to sell its film and TV studios and HBO Max streaming service to Netflix, according to people familiar with the discussions. So that means over the next few days, this could play out. They could agree on a price and then we will see
3:52 Bill Simmons? what happens. Will the government block it? Will Paramount sue? Will Paramount, I don't know, can they try a hostile takeover while this is happening?
4:03 Bill Simmons? Who knows? But this is the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, uh, media story we've had in the entertainment world, I think, this decade. If Netflix, who hasn't bought anything, finally buys, uh, buys Warner Brothers and gets all of their assets. So Matt and I talked about all of the angles. That's coming up. So it's House, basketball and football. Belloni talking about the Warner Brothers sale, and then John Cena. This is an absolute mega pod. It's really good. It's all next. We're going to take a break and then. Pro Jap. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up,
4:48 Bill Simmons? but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance when it comes to getting help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
5:29 Bill Simmons? We're kicking things off with a special part of today's episode. Brought to you by Michelob Ultra as the official beer partner of the NBA. They know the best moments on or off the court are served cold. So let's crack open a six pack as we dig into the most buzzworthy moments of the season so far. And also a little NBA cup as well. And we'll talk about the superior play of the day. So Joe House is here. We're going to talk football picks a little bit later, but I wanted to keep you on so I could have somebody to throw off some NBA opinions. We're going to do six opinions. You like beer. I don't know if the beer is going to throw you off. Look at it. Looks nice and cold and tasty. Six beers in there. I like that beer. Six things.
6:11 Bill Simmons? I want to start here and we could make this the superior play of this Michelob Ultra six pack that we're doing.
6:19 Bill Simmons? Shay Gildes Alexander, very boring to talk about. Won the title last year when the MVP scores 33 points a game. He's an assassin. His facial expression never changes. Not that fun of a topic, not a lot to say, not a lot of places to go. House, as we record this on Thursday afternoon, Pacific time, Shay is averaging 32.8 points a game in 33.6 minutes. He's almost a point a game. To put this in perspective, the per 36 guys in history who have been over 35 points a game. Do you think Michael Jordan is on this list?
6:57 Speaker 01 I do.
6:58 Bill Simmons? He is not.
6:59 Speaker 01 Wow.
7:00 Bill Simmons? Wilt Chamberlain, 1961, 62, his 50-point season, 37.36. Giannis this year.
7:07 Speaker 01 Okay.
7:07 Bill Simmons? 35.78, just got hurt again. James Harden in 2019, 35.38. And then Shay, playing no fourth quarters, basically. He's missed 11 already. I think he's missed half of the season in the fourth quarter at 35.12. He's shooting 55%, 44% from three, 88% free throws. He's been 20 a night for almost 100 games? The record's 126. That's a record I actually care about. It's so fucking hard to score 20 a night. Think about that. Foul trouble, a night where you're off, a night where you get hurt in like the third quarter. They're on pace for a 75-win season. And right now, he's like a slight, slight, slight MVP favorite on Fanduel. I think he's plus 155. Jokic is right after him.
7:52 Bill Simmons? I don't see a scenario where he's not the MVP again if this team wins like 75 games. What's the number where it's like he has to be MVP?
8:00 Speaker 01 Honestly, to me, anything over 70 wins.
8:04 Bill Simmons? 70 and 12. There's basically no scenario if he plays the whole year and he's doing this, that he's not the MVP.
8:10 Speaker 01 And he holds this level. I mean, the hard thing will be, how do you pay proper respect to the Joker? Because the Joker's going to average a triple-double. And it's an impactful triple-double. I mean, I, you mentioned Harden in 2019, should have been the MVP. Or was that his MVP year? Which year did Westbrook steal it?
8:30 Bill Simmons? His MVP was 18. Westbrook still has 17.
8:33 Speaker 01 17, yeah.
8:35 Bill Simmons? I forget who won 19.
8:36 Speaker 01 In any event, the case for the Joker.
8:40 Bill Simmons? Giannis won in 19.
8:42 Speaker 01 Who won? Giannis?
8:43 Bill Simmons? Giannis won in 19.
8:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, that makes sense.
8:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
8:45 Speaker 01 The case for the Joker is going to be compelling. As long as this Denver team gets to like 55 wins, which is north of.
8:54 Bill Simmons? With some injuries already, yeah, they'd have to be mid-50s.
8:56 Speaker 01 It's north of where they're at right now.
8:59 Bill Simmons? I think if we're over 70, I think it has to probably be Shay doing this. I'll throw one thing with Shay, beyond all the number stuff. He's hit the point. So I'm watching the Warriors game the other night and it's really fun. Seth Curry got to play, was really excited for our girl Callie.
9:15 Bill Simmons? And they're hanging tough, they're throwing haymakers and they're, at one point, did you see it? They're up, they're up like five with like four or five with like five minutes left. And you're just watching it going, I know how this is gonna end. This is fucking Friday the 13th, Fourhees is gonna come into the cabin and he's gonna start killing people. And Shay just puts teams away and you know he's gonna do it. You know what shots he's gonna get. And now it's like, I've never seen a guard just do this relentlessly night after night since we've had league pass. Jordan was doing this, we didn't have league pass.
9:49 Speaker 01 You know who else agreed with you? I was looking to live bet, I wanted to live bet Oklahoma City.
9:55 Bill Simmons? Oh, when Golden State was like up four, you're just like jumping into it.
9:58 Speaker 01 The market's like, oh, here is 10 and a half. Like even though the game was only four points, it was like here, you know, they have to win by 10 and a half. That's, that's, cause I wanted some OKC, I was like, God, Lee, man, can't get any breaks.
10:14 Bill Simmons? They're gonna win so many games this year and there's a million reasons for it. And they're like a perfectly constructed team and they're young and they're hungry. And they even have, it seemed like they have a little edge from them, even from last year to like show like, not only are we the champs, we're laying the smackdown this year. But the Shay piece, I've personally watched it swing five games. You're like, oh, they're gonna lose tonight. And Shay's like, no, we're actually not gonna lose. I'm gonna make every shot right now and that's gonna be it. So I'm starting the six pack with him. We'll go to Giannis really quickly. Talked with Max Kellerman on Tuesday, this is second for the six pack. Talked to Max Kellerman about favorite Giannis destinations. And my favorite was Atlanta, just from a trade package standpoint. Before I tell you a mystery suitor, do you have a favorite Giannis trade destination?
10:58 Bill Simmons? Cause this, this really heated up last 48 hours and he did get hurt, but he's gonna be back in a couple of weeks.
11:05 Speaker 01 I think Houston would be incredible.
11:08 Speaker 01 I think that the combination of youth and you know, the KD, you know, last hurrah kind of vibe here.
11:17 Bill Simmons? So what are you giving up?
11:19 Speaker 01 I'm not sure. It's like
11:21 Bill Simmons? Are you putting Shingun in that?
11:22 Speaker 01 Some Tari Eason, maybe.
11:24 Bill Simmons? That's not getting Giannis.
11:25 Speaker 01 No, no, no. I like it's, it's a, it's a, it's a big package. It's a big package. It's a big package.
11:30 Bill Simmons? So it's like a Reed Shepard, Jabari Smith, Tari Eason. You're just trying to patch contracts together until you can get near the Giannis number. I'm just hanging up unless Shingun's in it.
11:41 Speaker 01 Okay, that's, that's fair enough.
11:44 Bill Simmons? If I'm the Bucks, I'm like, we're not just taking a shitty trade. Uh, two different people mentioned this to me in the last 24 hours. I just wanted to mention this team. And it chills my bones. The heat of Miami.
12:01 Bill Simmons? Two different scenarios. One has Bam in it, which I think if you're doing this, you probably try to keep Bam. But pretty easily you can do the three brothers, Giannis and his two brothers. They have to be in the trade. You gotta take both of them.
12:12 Speaker 01 Okay.
12:13 Bill Simmons? With Bobby Portis and you get back Hero and Bam, Yakashonis, who needs to leave Miami because he's a pick and roll guy. They don't run pick and rolls. And picks. And that's one. But I think the more likely one, which is interesting to me, three brothers. Hero, Ware.
12:34 Bill Simmons? Who's good. Wiggins. And picks.
12:38 Speaker 01 You think that's superior to Houston?
12:40 Bill Simmons? It's a three for one. Well, here I'm getting a top 45 guy in the league who can put up 25 a night. I'm getting a really good young center who I'm shocked by how much he's progressed this year. I think he's really good. I'm not positive he's perfect with Bam.
12:58 Bill Simmons? And then I'm just getting a bunch of picks and a tradable contract to Wiggins.
13:03 Speaker 01 What are those picks? What are the picks?
13:05 Bill Simmons? I'm just, whatever my picks are, here they are.
13:09 Speaker 01 I don't love it.
13:12 Speaker 01 Let me, let me, this is, I'm sorry to do this. I'm sorry to do this. Did you watch the end of the Dallas Mavericks and the Miami Heat? Miami was making a push. Dallas was playing quite, quite valiant. Your boy Cooper Flag came through in the, he did foul, he fouled on a, on a play that they called a block. That's fine. He's getting some respect already. But Tyler Hero took a couple of shots. I was like, man, that, this is not the time for that shot. Like,
13:40 Bill Simmons? you know, would they love it?
13:41 Speaker 01 He could have done better.
13:45 Speaker 01 Tyler Hero hoisting?
13:47 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. The Yanis stuff is a very hard pause button calf strain. It looked bad when he fell down, but then they'll be super careful with it. So now this goes through January now. There's going to be more unhappy teams. But yeah, the Miami piece of it. Cause the Bucks, the, the thing that stood out to me was the, was the, in the reporting and a lot of people did some good reporting about it. One of the people said that if he picks, if he decides he wants to go and he tells them the team, they'll try to get a deal done with the team out of respect to it. So if he says New York.
14:23 Speaker 01 He could say that.
14:24 Bill Simmons? That, that's basically Townsend and Ananobe. There's so much apron complications with that.
14:29 Speaker 01 Very good trade.
14:31 Bill Simmons? Yeah. But I don't know if the Knicks can send both guys in the same trap. I'm still, the apron is the most curious thing about that. But he could, he could say Atlanta sounds great. Figure it out.
14:43 Speaker 01 I mean, respectfully,
14:46 Speaker 01 to the great cities of Houston and Atlanta, Miami's got a natural advantage. Miami, Miami has an attraction. The brothers, we imagine what the brothers tried to persuade him. His brother, like imagine my brothers telling me.
15:00 Bill Simmons? Yeah. He's like, he's like, he's like the house brothers. There's like the meal ticket and then the two black sheep's.
15:06 Speaker 01 And they would be like, we're going to use the house name on South Beach. You understand this?
15:12 Bill Simmons? We're opening a bar.
15:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:14 Bill Simmons? All right. Speaking of Dallas, you mentioned them earlier. Obviously I've been watching. We have a lot of Mavs futures. They started out a little season from Helly and then something has happened the last couple of games as AD has started to look like AD again.
15:27 Speaker 01 Well, that's, that's one thing. That's one important thing.
15:31 Bill Simmons? They started to actually play a real point guard. So Jason Kidd can no longer say that he was intentionally trying to tank to get Nico Harrison fired because Nico Harrison is gone. So now he's playing a point guard.
15:42 Speaker 01 He was sitting right there.
15:44 Bill Simmons? There's been a lot of AD stuff and I know there's different trade possibilities for him and I look forward when we launch the Max and Rich podcast next week. Maybe Rich will talk about some of those scenarios. Who knows? Who knows what they're capable of that pod. I'm not trading Anthony Davis right now.
16:01 Bill Simmons? I'm keeping him. Flag and Davis together. I need to see this more.
16:07 Speaker 01 Okay.
16:08 Bill Simmons? I'm not, I'm hanging up on all calls. I just want to watch this for another month because they had too many big guys. They were playing flag out of position. They put, they did him a real disservice, which I've talked about multiple times. But now he's in his right spot where he's like a four and now you have Gafford coming off the bench as like one more big man. But basically you have a lot of flag and AD together. That's like a winnable combo as my four or five. I think that's really hard to deal with, really hard to deal with defensively. It's great for flag. I'm not fucking with that.
16:41 Speaker 01 So your point is you're not trading Anthony Davis in any 80 cent on the dollar because Dallas has to move. This is, this is your, what you're arguing here. Like, why would Dallas at this?
16:53 Bill Simmons? Why do I have to trade him?
16:54 Speaker 01 Right. Yeah, right.
16:55 Bill Simmons? Make me, am I getting Yanis back? Like make me a real offer. I'm not trading him for, you know, Yaka Pirtle and Emmanuel Quickly and some picks. Like fuck off. Um, I'd rather keep him and, and flag has been, I know you've, you've been a little focused on it. Flag has, flag and Knipple have both look like they're 27 years old in some of these games.
17:16 Speaker 01 That's absolutely right. The poise is, I mean, the edge come as well. He, I treat him like a, like a, he's, all of them make dumb plays.
17:24 Bill Simmons? A little. Yeah.
17:25 Speaker 01 But I'm just like the poise. They're, they're ready. They arrived in the NBA ready to play.
17:30 Bill Simmons? I don't even want to tell you one of the texts I had about Knipple to a basketball friends of ours of my comparison for him because I would get laughed off the internet. Nah, I've just been really impressed by him.
17:40 Speaker 01 Should I say it out loud? I know who you're talking about now.
17:45 Bill Simmons? I don't want to do it. I don't want to put it on him. I don't want to put it on him. No, I'm not. I'm denying everything.
17:51 Speaker 01 Beeping that.
17:53 Bill Simmons? It's, there's moments where he looks kind of like a taller Havlicek. I gotta be honest. He never stops moving. He's fundamentally perfect. He's got great posture.
18:03 Speaker 01 Said it.
18:04 Bill Simmons? He's just additive. He can play like three positions and he just looks a little, little Havlickey to me.
18:09 Speaker 01 So good.
18:10 Bill Simmons? And Flag, I don't know if I've seen Flag before. What is Flag? I don't even know. What is he?
18:17 Speaker 01 Let's let it play out a little bit.
18:18 Bill Simmons? But what is he? What, who is his doppelganger? I don't even know. He's doing stuff where I'm like, I don't know what that is.
18:26 Speaker 01 Combo four scorer. You have to, you have to take a whole bunch of guys. And unfortunately, you know, my brain goes immediately like, what four white guys is he most like? I have to make a combination. It's Tom Chambers. Tom Chambers in there and then I see some AK-47 in there. I'm not doing it. We're not doing it.
18:46 Bill Simmons? I mean, really, it's more Tatum-y than anything. Some of the stuff he's doing on offense. Same size, same kind of, as Tatum was trying to figure out his 101 game. All right. Next thing on the six pack ironically.
18:57 Speaker 01 Beer right now?
18:58 Bill Simmons? We're in a fourth beer right now ironically with Jason Tatum. Cause here's what's changed.
19:02 Speaker 01 Fourth beer Tatum.
19:04 Bill Simmons? Well, here's what's changed, House.
19:07 Bill Simmons? The Celtic season went from, we're one injury away from, we're probably going to be pretty bad. So why are we going to bring Tatum back? Screw up a top 10 pick. We're not going to head to the playoffs anyway. I felt this way. I saw them in person a couple of weeks ago and I'm like, I don't see it. They've really, really turned into a decent basketball team and Jalen has been a top 13, 15 guy in the league. He's going toe to toe. They just had this stretch where they played Orlando and the Knicks and Minnesota and Cleveland and one other really good team. And they went four and one.
19:43 Bill Simmons? It's a, I forget the, there's a 15 in there. They're all good. And they really could have won five of the five. The one they lost was in Minnesota. And granted, this is part of the Ant package. Ant just made a couple of fucking crazy shots. Which he does. I'm not like, oh, if he had him, that's what he does. I get it. But they kind of had Minnesota in a spot where it felt like they could steal the game. And Missoula, I think, has done a good job. They have all these energy guys. They have an identity. Their offensive rating is like surprisingly, shockingly, really good. Cade has been a revelation as a center. And it's hit the point now where Tatum has to come back if he's, if he can play.
20:23 Speaker 01 Wow.
20:24 Bill Simmons? Drew Smith?
20:24 Speaker 01 Has to.
20:26 Bill Simmons? Well, if, what's he gonna do? So let's say he's cleared and ready to go in January. He's just not gonna play for eight more months? Drew Smith's already playing with the same injury. Like, these are, these could be eight, nine months. I, from everything I've heard across the board, he's been relentless and a maniac and passed every checkpoint and has done everything possible to come back as soon as possible, 100%, not 94%. And they're understandably being careful. But at some point, it's like, if he's ready to play, let's, let's play him. What are we waiting for? We might be like a five or a six seed. So I just, I feel more confident than ever with the way that this team has responded, that he's gonna be back. Not reporting it. I just, I watched this team and I think they're in a good spot.
21:11 Speaker 01 You're not saying that after four beers. You're saying that like...
21:14 Bill Simmons? It's my four beer opinion on the six pack, but listen, the whole organization, like it's, it's, you know, they're trying not to talk about it. They don't want to put pressure on them. But, so what makes, what makes you nervous about this?
21:27 Speaker 01 Um, I've been wondering on this stretch of success that they, they've had about the, the challenge of this composition all season long, which is fourth quarter scoring. And I watched it a little bit against the Knicks and Jalen's just like, no, it's fine. We need a bucket. I'll go get us a bucket. And I wonder out loud how sustainable that is in view of the workload that he's carrying. Like this stretch, if you look at the, the minutes, the usage, the way that he's been efficient and the impact it has on the, on the role guys, he really does rise all the boats. You know, he's the rising tide.
22:08 Speaker 01 I don't want him to get hurt, so I'm knocking on wood with, with both hands, but that's not really...
22:13 Bill Simmons? We appreciate that.
22:14 Speaker 01 Can he do that for long? That would be part of the reason for Tatum to come back, because it would take a lot of pressure off of it, that situation.
22:22 Bill Simmons? They've been really good about his minutes. He's only been at 33 minutes a game this year. Average in 29 a game. I was so happy because I I've absolutely loved this Jalen season. And he actually really did get better at a couple of things, including he has this move now that he did not have before. And he would try to do it and half the time would dribble off his foot. But he goes hard like he's driving to the basket. And then he he does like a hard stop and a really low crossover dribble. That because these teams would always dive down and try to pick his dribble. He does this hard, low dribble now, and then this little fallback 12 footer. And I swear to God, he makes like 90% of them. It's like unstoppable. It's like this DeMar DeRozan mid range game that he just didn't have last year.
23:07 Bill Simmons? And he's able to shoot threes, go to the basket or get like his shot selection's been really smart. And I was so happy for him on Tuesday in that Knicks game because I think that was a it's a big that was a big marquee.
23:20 Speaker 01 Big stage.
23:20 Bill Simmons? Big peacock game, Knicks Celtics, and he sucked in the first quarter. And all these people I've watched Celtics out here, I was like, oh, great. Of all the games that he's going to suck in this one when everyone's watching. And then he rallied back and he killed the Knicks.
23:33 Speaker 01 He did.
23:34 Bill Simmons? Now, they didn't have OG, but he like really went after him and brought it to him. So I think he's gone up a level and it's great for Tatum because when Tatum comes back, he's not going to have to be the Tatum from last year. Right? You're just kind of moving them in and giving them the 27, 28 minutes a game. Anyway, they're the six seed right now. The problem with them is Brown, Pritchard, White, Cada, these four guys, if any of them gets hurt, this Craters, they they basically need 30 minutes from all of them. But I this is the first time this like this five game stretch, Detroit, Orlando, the Knicks and Cleveland, they beat, almost beat Minnesota where it's like this. This team's like pretty good. And you add Jason Tatum, who is the fifth best player in the league last year, they're going to be better than pretty good.
24:16 Speaker 01 It's a shame you couldn't keep kept Cornet to see his game saving block.
24:21 Bill Simmons? I know, I we we love Cornet. Couldn't pay couldn't pay him. Simons is a little bit of an X factor because I don't think Joe trusts him.
24:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure.
24:29 Bill Simmons? But he does have some good one on one stuff. And I think they're they're falling into him maybe being the sixth man. Anyway, uh, fifth one, the Chris Paul.
24:41 Bill Simmons? With an all time, everything ends badly. Otherwise, it wouldn't end final season. I just, I gotta ask you, has there ever been a six months like this for an NBA team that you can remember, starting with game seven against Denver? When they took the most massive shit possible and the biggest possible stage, just terrible, immediately awful for Harden. From that moment on, this has been an absolute train wreck.
25:12 Bill Simmons? And I don't remember anything like this.
25:14 Speaker 01 It's, it's only rivaled by another era with this very same organization, which is when the owner turned out to be a virulent racist.
25:26 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
25:26 Speaker 01 Like with, where his words were taped and, and, and, and published when the team was pretty goddamn good.
25:36 Bill Simmons? Right. Had a chance to make the finals. That's, yeah, that's a worse like in the moment thing. Blowing the lead to Houston. They've had worse things, but this stretch, that game seven, the aspiration scandal that we don't even know what the publisher, the punishment's going to be yet, but hugely embarrassing for everybody and a big plague over the season. They signed your guy Bradley Beal, who then immediately got hurt. They signed Brook Lopez, who's just washed now. He can't play unfortunately. Horrible start. Norm Powell, who they trade because they won't give him an extension, thriving in Miami. The Lakers are thriving in general and look like a contender. They have all this Chris Paul weirdness. They don't
26:17 Bill Simmons? have their pick. They're giving their pick to a team that might win 73 games. And on top of all this, the All-Star game is here at the aspiration dome in February. I can't think of a worse run than this.
26:28 Speaker 01 I mean, you didn't even include the, the legal jeopardy of Ty Lou's two best friends.
26:36 Bill Simmons? Oh, I forgot about that.
26:38 Speaker 01 There's, I think he was at some of those poker games.
26:42 Bill Simmons? He was all right, though. He was just playing. Um, yeah, I forgot about that one. That wasn't great either. So yeah, this Clippers thing. I don't see it getting better. They did win last night, which was, um, they beat somebody that.
26:56 Speaker 01 They beat the Hawks.
26:57 Bill Simmons? You're missing a bunch of.
26:57 Speaker 01 Because, yes, uh, 10 second rant. Jalen Johnson was a late scratch. Like, here's the thing, everybody. If you're gonna bet on the NBA, don't do it early in the day. There are no good numbers early in the day.
27:12 Bill Simmons? Yeah, just wait till the last possible second.
27:13 Speaker 01 Goddamn clue who's playing. I laid two and a half on Atlanta early in the day. Like, okay, I like the situation, blah, blah, blah. Doing like sensible matchup stuff. Uh, in, you know, five o'clock, Jalen Johnson's out. Oh, well, good. Bye bye, money. I mean, you have to hedge out of it, which I did.
27:31 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you gotta wait till the last 10 minutes. Uh, sixth thing for the six pack.
27:36 Bill Simmons? Kind of excited for the NBA Cup matchups. Can we rank these from four to one?
27:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, let's go.
27:41 Bill Simmons? Cause I think all these teams are gonna try and I'm always, I'm always ready to watch any basketball team where I have 100% certainty that both sides care.
27:49 Speaker 01 They're, they're gonna compete. Let's go.
27:52 Bill Simmons? I'll give you the four options. We have the all Florida battle, Miami versus Orlando. We have the Knicks going to Toronto. Suns Thunder. Dillon Brooks just probably trying to as close to being kicked out as possible without getting kicked out. And Lakers Spurs. No Wemby.
28:15 Bill Simmons? What do you got for number one?
28:17 Speaker 01 I think Suns Thunder is super live. I just think there, there is so much, uh, on, on, because the, the, the general public hasn't really seen, um, the Suns yet. People don't really have their heads around.
28:32 Bill Simmons? You've been betting on them all year.
28:33 Speaker 01 Well, they're, they're number one against the spread. They're number one in the entire NBA against the spread. So, yes, I, I, I try and make profitable bets.
28:41 Bill Simmons? I just needed this Colin Gillespie thing. I need.
28:44 Speaker 01 Amazing.
28:45 Bill Simmons? Connor Gillespie, Colin Gillespie. I need some sort of explanation for how this happened, where this guy has become such an awesome point guard. They had him on the team last year.
28:55 Speaker 01 This, this is an unbelievable example of addition by subtraction. There were, you really can't overstate how, how much it sucked to have, um, you know, th- those three guys who clearly were not on the same page. Not saying a bad thing about any one of them individually, but it clearly was, you know, whatever was going on.
29:18 Bill Simmons? The vibes were so horrible.
29:20 Speaker 01 Whatever was going on with Coach Bud.
29:22 Bill Simmons? Well, that too, and your guy Bradley. Manix texted me that the vibe at the Clippers game that he went to last weekend was actually worse than the vibe from the Suns games last year, which I thought was the most damning thing I heard about the Clippers. I hope I did, I'm sure he said that on his podcast too, but, um, yeah, they better vibes. They really give a shit. And I think there's a real Dillon Brooks conversation to be had. Every team that he's on really, really, really tries. It's the one thing you can count on and over and over again, he's on the team that gives, seems like it gives more of a shit.
29:57 Speaker 01 It's part of the reason why I'll forever hold Russell Westbrook in such high esteem. Not, not, not a guy that like, you know, style of play wise, um, is I've ever been able to really wrap my head around always like, you know, where's the IQ element of, especially on defense, um, hoops IQ I'm talking about, but goddamn that guy cares. Goddamn, he tried hard. Goddamn, he dragged a terrible Washington team to the playoffs.
30:24 Bill Simmons? He gets rebounds.
30:25 Speaker 01 Yes.
30:26 Bill Simmons? He fills up this box score. All right. So you have Suns, Thunder first.
30:32 Bill Simmons? I have Miami, Orlando first.
30:34 Speaker 01 Okay.
30:35 Bill Simmons? I like what's going on with this Orlando team and there, there's some interesting Palo questions.
30:43 Bill Simmons? Not going to bring any of them up, but there's just some questions, some things. I always get suspicious when somebody loses their best player and then immediately looks like the team has fallen into place. I'm just monitoring. Miami's been really fun to watch and I hate myself for saying that, as I mentioned every time. It's really fun.
30:59 Speaker 01 They revamped, they went into the lab in the summer, like, you know what? We're not going to be as last in pace any longer.
31:06 Bill Simmons? I like their style.
31:07 Speaker 01 What if we're first in pace? Let's go try that. Oh, yeah. All of a sudden, here we go. Interesting.
31:12 Bill Simmons? Let's push the ball, spread the floor. You have the ball, attack the basket. That's why my guy Yakusshinus hasn't hasn't played. He's that's not his game. They should trade him. Trade him to free him.
31:23 Speaker 01 Free Yakushus.
31:27 Bill Simmons? I would put Lakers Spurs. I would have Knicks Toronto last.
31:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:33 Bill Simmons? That would be my four. I would go. So you have Suns Thunder one. I have Miami Orlando one. So we'll flip those for one and two, and then Lakers Spurs three Knicks Toronto four.
31:44 Speaker 01 Okay.
31:45 Bill Simmons? I think that's fair.
31:46 Speaker 01 I just psyched for all of them. There's a great mix of upstart teams like who had Toronto, you know, showing up and showing up in this instance. And I think on that big stage, it's a good test because the Knicks are not going to be like, oh, yeah, let's let's accommodate Toronto here. That's that's gonna be fun to watch.
32:04 Bill Simmons? I think they they need to add NBA awards that I can vote for at the end of the year because I'm not allowed to bet on any of the awards. So I'd rather just vote for more awards.
32:12 Speaker 01 You want more awards?
32:13 Bill Simmons? I want more awards. I Scotty Barnes deserves some sort of award.
32:19 Bill Simmons? And I was thinking the category would be. I never really liked watching you, but now I do.
32:28 Bill Simmons? Something like that. I've really enjoyed watching Scotty Barnes this year, and I did not enjoy his game for the years before. I had something clicked in his head. I like how unselfish he is. I like his physicality. I've just really enjoyed everything he's done. Thumbs up Scotty Barnes.
32:43 Speaker 01 If we were going to be like, you know, even more gracious towards Scotty about it, what was going on was the Toronto organization with this inexplicable tank concept that got Masai fired because he really couldn't explain it to anybody. And they just kind of floundered and it never really made sense or translated into impactful draft picks. And so they went the other direction and it's pretty a pretty interesting team this year.
33:12 Bill Simmons? It helps them that they have Ingram, who can look like Discount Durant sometimes and has that. It was funny to watch him that one game when he hit the game winner. They gave it to him and he flipped the ball almost like Rondo style before he started his move. Cause he's like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going left, I'm pulling up and I'm making it. He made it with like an incredible amount of confidence. Then the next game they played Charlotte and it was same situation in Charlotte. Because they have a good coach was saying, there's no fucking way you're doing that move again. So as he started, they just sent two guys to the spot and double teamed them. But that's it taking that load off Barnes, plus he's older, but I've been really impressed by him. Anyway, that is, uh, that's our six pack.
33:54 Bill Simmons? If you want even more, grab yourself a pack of Michelob Ultra plus Ultra is getting you closer to the action with a chance to win exclusive prizes, including courtside tickets and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526. No purchase necessary. Open to U S residents 21 plus begins on October 1st, 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. We're gonna take a break and talk football. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry.
34:36 Bill Simmons? Quarterback scrambles clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah. Turnover suddenly deserted 2 P M. Doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations. Well, those can only mean buffalo wings as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending the message to eat more food. Yeah. The good news, Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, before we get to the games that we really like, we gotta talk about Fandel now live in Missouri.
35:21 Bill Simmons? And to celebrate, we're turning to the expert. Who's had more barbecue than any white man alive, Mr. Joe House, to rank his favorite Missouri dining establishments? I know you've dabbled a few times here. What do you got?
35:33 Speaker 01 Well, I don't think I'm going to rank the establishments. What I'm going to do is celebrate a very unique aspect of the Kansas City barbecue scene. And then we had the nationwide, everybody, you know, claims they have, Texas has its barbecue, Carolina has its barbecue. But there is only one place you can go to get burnt ends. This place is Kansas City, Missouri. And there are a number of phenomenal establishments that have really made their mark with the burnt ends. Now, if you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, it is the, the, the tip of a, of a brisket. And over time, it's kind of evolved. Now, a lot of times what folks will do is cube up a piece
36:16 Speaker 01 of the sort of fatty part of the brisket and then they, they re-smoke it. They, they've, it's been prepared, then you cube it, then you re-smoke it. They're magnificent. They're a one of a kind. And there are several establishments in Missouri, Kansas City, Missouri. I don't know who lays claim to the, the OG original. It might be-
36:36 Bill Simmons? Everyone's a winner. We don't need to pick a, a winning establishment. The point is, go get some burnt tips in Kansas City.
36:42 Speaker 01 Burnt ends in Kansas City. You could go to Gates, Arthur Bryant's. You want to go to Joe's, Jack Stack. LC is apparently top of the list. I, I've tried a bunch. I haven't tried LC. That, that's, that's got to get on my list, but burnt ends in Kansas City.
36:56 Bill Simmons? Actually with Dave Jacoby at MLB All-Star Weekend in 2012.
37:00 Speaker 01 I hope you got burnt ends while you were there. Please tell me.
37:02 Bill Simmons? I made the mistake of eating too much and then we had to do like an interview with somebody and I was like in a barbecue coma. It was great.
37:08 Speaker 01 That's, that's what I do.
37:09 Bill Simmons? That's all stuff you can do in Missouri. You can also gamble in Missouri because FanDuel is now live in Missouri and they're celebrating with a ton of great promotions and rewards for everyone. So sign up today. Take advantage this weekend. All right. Let's talk about our favorite NFL games. A lot of football has happened since the last time we, uh, we talked. We had, uh- All those Thursday, Friday games, Sunday game, suddenly the Pats are considered to be the best team in the NFL, which is even as a Pats fan who loves the Pats, I would say that's probably ridiculous, but speaks to where we are at the season where nobody can even figure out a team to make the favorite. We do not have an OKC in the NBA house, but what we do have is picks and you and I, once again, started out great last week. It went
37:52 Bill Simmons? sideways. I want to use this as an opportunity to talk about a bunch of games with a bunch of playoff implications. Can we stay away from Seahawks Falcons?
38:00 Speaker 01 That's fine. Number's too big. Like the Falcons there.
38:05 Bill Simmons? Like the Falcons a little, but I'm not betting.
38:07 Speaker 01 We're not betting the Falcons anymore.
38:09 Bill Simmons? We're not betting Kirk Cousins against the number one defense.
38:11 Speaker 01 Definitely not.
38:12 Bill Simmons? No, thank you. Seahawks by seven. No, thanks.
38:14 Speaker 01 Not doing it.
38:14 Bill Simmons? Bucks minus eight and a half against the Saints. I can never tell who's playing for the Bucks.
38:18 Speaker 01 Way too many points.
38:20 Bill Simmons? The Saints QB is just good enough that I almost wanted to throw Saints plus eight and a half in there, but I feel like we've taken them before and they couldn't beat Miami last week. They're out. Rams minus seven and a half at Arizona. There's some backdoor potential. I just, no thanks. High favorite on the road. I don't know what to make Arizona. And then, uh,
38:40 Speaker 01 I mean, the Rams, the only, here's the case for the Rams. Um, three pieces. It's Sean McVay in December. He absolutely owns Arizona, especially in Arizona, and they lost last week. So that would be the case. They're going to come in and just beat the crap out of, out of poor Jacoby Berset.
38:58 Bill Simmons? All right. I'll put them in the parlay pile.
39:02 Bill Simmons? The maybes. It's a really weird Dolphins Jets game that initially I liked the Dolphins, right? And then it ended up, it's, it's the Dolphins minus three is the line right now?
39:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:13 Bill Simmons? Think it is?
39:14 Speaker 01 Yep.
39:16 Bill Simmons? But the Jets have been pretty good the last five games.
39:19 Speaker 01 I was
39:19 Bill Simmons? To the point then, I was like, oh, maybe we should take the Jets. Then I'm like, well, if I'm changing my mind on the game, probably a stay away. The, the special team stuff is crazy in this. The Jets are first in DVOA, Miami's fourth.
39:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:31 Bill Simmons? So I guess that's going to decide the game. I'd rather not find out with our money on it. It's going to be 40 degrees though, House.
39:37 Speaker 01 Now, there's your thing. There's your thing. Now, I've said on a couple of podcasts this week, I'm no longer making bets based on what I, we think the weather's gonna do. Cause it really stuck us really in a, in a sweet place in that Browns game where we were like, oh, Purdy, can Purdy throw in the 50 mile winds in Cleveland?
39:55 Bill Simmons? And then there were no wins.
39:56 Speaker 01 Get out of here with that. But for sure, it's gonna be cold in New York, uh, in the, I'm just gonna call it the Meadowlands, um, on, on Sunday. And it's for sure the case that Tua is gonna be the quarterback of the Miami Dolphins, playing in the cold up there in the Meadowlands. That's true.
40:17 Bill Simmons? Sounds like you're kind of intrigued by this one.
40:20 Speaker 01 I like the way the Jets have been playing. They, they have, they are conceding, uh, no ground. They are trying hard. Um, I've been impressed.
40:31 Bill Simmons? Plus three?
40:33 Speaker 01 Just put it on, just table it for a minute. That's, that would be my inclination though.
40:38 Bill Simmons? Browns minus three and a half against the Titans. Um, Browns defense at home. Browns burned us last week. I thought it was a really stupid game. Here's, so initially I had this down. Here's why I decided against it. And I was thinking a lot about how the Browns completely F'd us and everyone else who bet on them last week and all the stupid shit they did. And it made me wonder like, is this a secret tank team?
41:03 Speaker 01 Hmm.
41:05 Bill Simmons? I was on Browns Reddit, really fun place by the way. Enjoyable, enjoyable tour through the Browns Reddit. Um, and I, I can't say they're enthusiastic about Kevin Stefanski because one of my tickles. And some people are like, I wouldn't have, he's trying to tank, but if you were trying to tank, you would do some of the stuff you did in that game. And it makes me not want to take them in this Titans game. So I think it's a stay away. Is that fair?
41:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. And, and you know, we have to like, look at each other Sunday afternoon and say, we laid three and a half with Shador. We, we laid three and a half points with, with Shador. We, we.
41:41 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Greg Casell had a thing. He was on some show. I follow him on Twitter and he posts the clips sometimes. I enjoy the Greg Casell clips, but he had this thing about how he's still at the college speed and he hasn't graduated to pro speed. And I was like, that's the perfect way to put it. He's not quite at the pro speed yet.
41:57 Speaker 01 So good. Good.
41:58 Bill Simmons? The problem with the Browns is you go down. Nine plus points with them and the game's over.
42:03 Speaker 01 Game's over. Exactly.
42:05 Bill Simmons? They were 10-8. I was like, they might be able to do this. And then it was 17-8. It's like, I'm done.
42:09 Speaker 01 Because the coach thinks they should, they go for it on, from their own 30. Do you know that, that San Francisco had five drives start on the, on the Cleveland side of the 50 yard.
42:20 Bill Simmons? I'm aware. I watched the whole game and I was losing my mind.
42:22 Speaker 01 They scored 21 points by starting on the, the 35 yard line of Cleveland.
42:27 Bill Simmons? I said to Sal, that was the, that was the dumbest thing all year that I saw coach do.
42:33 Speaker 01 It's a shame because that, that Browns defense is so good, but.
42:37 Bill Simmons? We can't bet them.
42:38 Speaker 01 Can't bet them.
42:39 Bill Simmons? Next maybe for me, the Vikings are favored by one and a half at home against your team house, Washington. Coming off a week where Max Brosmer just kept throwing picks like he was handing out turkeys on Thanksgiving as a professional athlete.
42:53 Bill Simmons? Your team looked good and it almost makes me not want to take them this week because they looked good last week and almost beat Denver. And I don't know what's going on, which quarterback you're getting, but I, I just, I don't want to be involved in this game. If that's okay, it's just a stay away for me. You okay with that?
43:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, it looks like Jayden Daniels.
43:13 Bill Simmons? Daniels, but then he's not healthy. Like, I don't like that scenario. Mariota in Minnesota makes me nervous. Every Minnesota offensive scenario makes me nervous. I just want to stay away.
43:25 Speaker 01 It's fine to stay away. I just want to tip my hat to the Minnesota defense because that Seattle game was nerve wracking. I had my favorite bet, my best bet, I gave it out on the Ringer pregame show was Seattle minus six and a half in the first half. Just to cover a little seven point line and the dramatic, possibly the, the, one of the greatest quarterback plays. Brosmer, just a miracle cover for me in, in that spot. But that Minnesota defense had Sam Darnold seeing stuff like he had Sam Darnold face. Don't let anybody convince you otherwise. And Minnesota's defense was bringing it and they brought pressure. I don't, I'm not, I don't want to have anything to do with that for this Washington team.
44:09 Bill Simmons? That's one of the reasons those Seahawks were a stay away for me against the Falcons because I haven't loved how their offense.
44:16 Speaker 01 We, we keep seeing Sam Darnold face like three out of the last four weeks.
44:19 Bill Simmons? Run the ball. They traded for Shaheed and I, basically he seems like he's a punt returner. And now it just seems like, I don't know, like JSN last week, who I had in a, in one of my leagues, but it was frustrating because it just seemed like they were like, you're not catching the ball.
44:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:36 Bill Simmons? Put five guys on you. All right. Parlay possibilities. Rams Cardinals is in there. Broncos at the, at Vegas, I guess, but I, something scares me about Vegas. Like they finally figured out, just throw the ball to Brock Bowers all the time.
44:52 Speaker 01 Does work. It's within 50 feet and he manages, he's incredible.
44:56 Bill Simmons? And Denver is just clearly going to be this team that pulls wins out of their ass all year.
45:02 Bill Simmons? Ravens Steelers.
45:03 Speaker 01 Oh.
45:04 Bill Simmons? That's Ravens minus five and a half.
45:07 Bill Simmons? I don't like the Ravens that much. I'm not afraid of them when the Pats play them. I don't think they're that good of a football team. The, I mean, there's been a lot written about this and discussed about this this week about Rogers in the Steelers offense and how horrible it is and how it's like, actually there's historical precedence being kicked now with how little, the lack of explosive plays, how he never throws the ball more than five yards.
45:34 Speaker 01 No 20 yard completions.
45:36 Bill Simmons? It's like, over and over again, everywhere you go, there's terrible stats about how bad the offense is. And then the flip side of it is that these games are always close. I feel like this burned me last year with this mentality of Ravens Steelers, it's always close. But the dogs do cover most of the time.
45:52 Speaker 01 75% of the time, the underdog covers.
45:56 Bill Simmons? I just feel like the Steelers are shot offensively. I don't even know what you do if you're them on offense, other than just try to run the ball. Maybe they're going to be able to do that against the Ravens, but is the Ravens a parlay team for you? Or is this just a stay away? Cause I don't like them either.
46:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'd be inclined to stay away. I, the only thing, I bet the under, as soon as the, the number came out, because of classic AFC North. I think I got it around, I don't know, 43 and a half, something, but it might've opened far north of that. Either way.
46:26 Bill Simmons? Okay.
46:26 Speaker 01 I don't, it's in the tick tag zone.
46:29 Bill Simmons? Well, here's one that I know you're gonna.
46:31 Speaker 01 Oh, no, it's not Tic Tac. It's Vegas sound. Pardon me. Pardon me.
46:33 Bill Simmons? Vegas sound. I know I'm gonna be able to talk you into the Bengals in a parlay as a dog. I know you're ready. No?
46:42 Speaker 01 No, no.
46:43 Bill Simmons? Why not?
46:44 Speaker 01 Because if the Bills can run the ball the way that they did against the Steelers, and I think they can run the ball the way they did against the Steelers, and it's the Bills at home.
46:54 Bill Simmons? I kind of. 41% chance of snow house.
46:56 Speaker 01 I kind of don't mind laying the points. I kind of don't mind laying the points. That Bengals defense is, remains not good. It's better.
47:06 Bill Simmons? They were pretty frisky last.
47:07 Speaker 01 Good effort against the Patriots two weeks ago.
47:12 Bill Simmons? That they're frisky against my team and that they're frisky on Thanksgiving.
47:15 Speaker 01 They're improved, improving, but go into Buffalo. This is, you know, Buffalo understands that that it can cede no more ground. I mean, I've been using that today.
47:28 Bill Simmons? Well, so the case for Buffalo, because I think everybody feels like Buffalo's had a disappointing season and it's basically because they don't get explosive plays anymore because no, their receivers can do that. But I think they figured that out.
47:40 Speaker 01 No separation.
47:40 Bill Simmons? And now they're trying to do last year's Chiefs routine with like, run the ball, run the ball, short passes.
47:45 Speaker 01 It's pretty good.
47:47 Bill Simmons? I always mention this. I keep track of wins, losses, either or games.
47:50 Speaker 01 You do.
47:51 Bill Simmons? Buffalo has eight legitimate wins.
47:55 Bill Simmons? I think they have the most wins of anybody of just outright. I guess the Pats have eight, maybe a couple others have eight. Nobody has nine, but they're eight, I have them eight, two and one, and the only either or game was that Ravens comeback game in week one. Other than that, all their wins are legitimate. And I said this last week, that Texans Thursday night game, which seemed like a bad loss for them, they're playing on three days rest. They're playing a Texans team that I think you and I both love. And they almost won the game, the Bills.
48:24 Speaker 01 Very well suited, that Texans team to, to, you know, turn Josh Allen into a one dimensional player, particularly well suited, the Houston team.
48:35 Bill Simmons? With all that said, Joe Burrow with the playoffs on the line in the AFC North in absolute shambles.
48:45 Bill Simmons? I just think he's gonna move the ball.
48:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
48:47 Bill Simmons? So maybe, maybe there's an overplay for us, or maybe it's like Bill's money in the over, something like that.
48:53 Speaker 01 Okay.
48:54 Bill Simmons? I guess there is snow. I don't know. Table it. All right. The ones that I like the most. What's the game you like the most?
48:59 Speaker 01 The Eagles.
49:00 Bill Simmons? I'll have that down. Eagles minus two and a half at the Chargers. Jalen Carter's out. And I guess the question is, does it matter where Philly plays? Cause their fans hate them. Aren't they better off playing on the road?
49:11 Speaker 01 Who's gonna, are they gonna get cheers or boos? Cause the, the, the LA crowd isn't gonna be, you know, there's no LA crowd showing up for the, for the.
49:20 Bill Simmons? It would be the Philly transplants who live here, but they're all gonna be so grateful to see their team in person. They're not gonna boo the first time they go three and out.
49:27 Speaker 01 Think about that. How good would that be?
49:29 Bill Simmons? It's like, thanks for coming to see me 3,000 miles away. It's gonna be a happy crowd.
49:33 Speaker 01 It's an incredible number when we don't know for sure that Justin Herbert's gonna play. This is, it's like two and a half.
49:39 Bill Simmons? If he does play, he's gonna have a broken hand.
49:41 Speaker 01 Right. He can't play on, they can't really go for on any fourth and short, cause he can't be the quarterback. Trey Lance has to come out and be the quarterback. Anytime I see Trey Lance on the field, I say, that's a win. Let's go. All right. Sign me up.
49:57 Bill Simmons? Puts you have the Eagles, 10 days rest. Eagles coming off a terrible loss.
50:01 Speaker 01 They have, they, they've sucked since the second half of, against Dallas. They've sucked.
50:06 Bill Simmons? So I watched all of that Chargers game last week, cause there's only three games. And I was in a fantasy thing where I had Brock Bowers. I was going against somebody I had Gentry. So I was like locked in. And I don't know, the Raiders kinda hung around in that game in a way that was a little disturbing. And you realize like, uh, and Max Crosby was doing stuff every once in a while. The Raiders just aren't good. They're not well coached. They just don't have enough talent, but they, they kinda hung around in that game in a way that I, I thought would have been alarming if I was a Chargers fan. Plus Herbert, you know, these guys, we saw with Rogers last week, you have a broken hand, you get sacked, you fall on your hand, you're trying to protect the hand, you fumble. Like, there's so many ways this can go wrong.
50:50 Speaker 01 It, it.
50:50 Bill Simmons? With a fucked up hand.
50:51 Speaker 01 It just feels like stealing to get the, the Eagles at anything less than a field goal when I, I honestly don't, I, I, I'm not positive he's playing. I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense for them.
51:03 Bill Simmons? Plus even like he had a terrible throw around the in the red zone last week. I don't think he's been lights out. The guy that scares me in this game is Vidal, especially if Carter's not playing. I wonder if they can run the ball on them. And but the thing with me is like, should the Chargers be like an 11 win team? Like it's the kind of game you should lose. Philly needs it. I'm with you. I like, I like the Eagles and they should be able to sort this stuff out. The one, there's three that I really like. Well, two that I really like, one that I kind of like. I'll give you the kind of like first, the Bears plus six and a half in Green Bay. And you were on Green Bay last week. That was one of the ones we hit. The fear would be Caleb and Lambo.
51:44 Bill Simmons? To me, this seems like a flash sale line to me. Like, why isn't this line three and a half or four? There's still like a little untrustworthiness with the Bears, but I feel like with what they did against Philly and how they ran the ball and how good their offensive line is, the old Lombardi phrase, bad offensive lines don't travel. They have a good offensive line and they're an outdoor team. And this seems like the kind of game they should hang around with. And it's a lot of points.
52:10 Speaker 01 It's too many points. Um, Green Bay hasn't
52:13 Bill Simmons? I agree.
52:13 Speaker 01 Covered as a favorite by this number this entire season. Green Bay is great when they're an underdog or where the line is, is tight. Green Bay by this number, like you look it up. They, they flat out just don't cover it. Don't come close to covering this, this number. Um, I think the Bears, see that this what, what helps the Bears is it's going to be freezing effing cold. It's going to be like single digit cold.
52:37 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
52:38 Speaker 01 And they are going to run. They're going to just try and run the football. But to, to the, the credit, like the offensive line was a point of emphasis in the off season. And then they arrived with a head coach who actually can scheme up an offensive line, a protection package and some run packages that are synergistic. So it's not just, we got guys, we got guys and now we have a plan also. And the way that they ran against Philadelphia, now I don't expect a repeat against of that. Because by EPA, um, Green Bay is pretty good, but they're only like middle of the pack in terms of, um, uh, win rate in terms of defensive rush, but. I think that the Bears will try and establish the run and that creates at least a little bit of
53:22 Speaker 01 room for Caleb. Nobody's asking Caleb to go, you know, win the game. If you are, then you're going to lose the game because we're still early in his career. But I think that six and a half is a crazy number to me.
53:36 Bill Simmons? I like that they're going to be able to block. I also like that. The one great thing he has is the scrambling. His ability to get out of trouble three, four, and Drake may does this too. Three, four times a game. He can just, it seems like it's going to be a sack and it isn't. And as inaccurate as he is, it's still a good quality. I just think they hang around. I also felt like we had the Packers in that Thursday game. There was a few moments where they needed a first down, where they needed a play, and I never knew where they were going. And it would be like, whoa, Wicks made a play and Dobbs. And it's like, I didn't really trust Watson will have his one play long, right? But I didn't really trust them series to series where they were going on like a third and seven, third and eight. And now Wicks is hurt. He's got the red flag next to him.
54:20 Speaker 01 I was nervous that whole game against Detroit. I mean, Detroit, you know, played pretty good.
54:27 Bill Simmons? They're in a lot of trouble.
54:28 Speaker 01 Different class, but the other thing.
54:30 Bill Simmons? We agreed too many points for the Bears.
54:31 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I like that Chicago's finally got its secondary healthy and it's a good secondary. Like we've been waiting all season, like everyone that the highly touted Chicago secondary, this is the time that you need them against this Green Bay team. Yeah, it's too many points. Are we taking the Bears?
54:47 Bill Simmons? A lot of confidence. Yeah, I think we should. Cold weather team built for, built for eight degrees in Lambeau.
54:53 Speaker 01 They're fine?
54:53 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
54:54 Speaker 01 They're fine with it.
54:54 Bill Simmons? Great.
54:57 Bill Simmons? Jags Colts.
54:57 Speaker 01 Can't believe we're doing that.
55:00 Bill Simmons? Jags Colts, Jags plus one and a half against the Colts. You're making a face. Why are you making a face?
55:07 Speaker 01 I just don't know what to do with this game. This game.
55:09 Bill Simmons? All right. Well, I'm going to tell you, this is going to be one of my picks.
55:11 Speaker 01 Oh, good. Okay. Thank God. I can't.
55:13 Bill Simmons? Jags are plus, Jags are plus one and a half.
55:18 Bill Simmons? Why did it confound you, by the way?
55:20 Speaker 01 Because Jacksonville owns the Colts in Jacksonville. You'll hear the stat a million times. Raheem has it. You know, he's been talking about it since, since Monday. The Colts haven't won in Jacksonville since 2015, something like that.
55:39 Bill Simmons? Remember, we were talking about home Browns. Outdoor Colts to me is a thing, too. I thought Dimes looked terrible last week. He can't move.
55:46 Speaker 01 Great.
55:47 Bill Simmons? Dimes can't move.
55:48 Speaker 01 That's the handicap, right?
55:49 Bill Simmons? Bad weather.
55:50 Speaker 01 Because what they have to do, the Colts, is establish the run. They can't have Jacksonville, who surprisingly can put some pressure on, on the quarterback. They can't have him teeing up and teeing off on, on Jones. He can't move.
56:05 Bill Simmons? Jacksonville's not bad. They're frustrating because of Lawrence. Thomas is going to hopefully be back more this week, but they can run the ball, which I've noticed with them. Like, they, they actually can, like, they can run inside.
56:17 Speaker 01 Right down the Chargers.
56:18 Bill Simmons? They can run on the outside. Yeah, they can run the ball for real.
56:21 Speaker 01 At home. So that's like the pathway for them. Can they do that to replicate that against the Colts? You can't have Trevor Lawrence throwing the ball. That, then, then you hate yourself.
56:30 Bill Simmons? 74% chance of rain.
56:35 Speaker 01 Think that's good for Jacksonville.
56:35 Bill Simmons? If it's a bad weather, rainy, outdoor game, I just like the Jags.
56:40 Speaker 01 Okay.
56:41 Bill Simmons? I don't want Daniel Jones, who can't move around. No Sauce Gardner in this game again. And I think the Colts for the last month have just been different than those first seven weeks. There's just no question. Every stat says it.
56:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, they, they, they were, they traveled. They had all of this travel. They played away games, outdoor games, grass games. Somewhere in there, Jones got hurt, and then it was supposed to be come home against Houston, get right. But they can't get right because my, my man Danny, Indiana Jones, has a broken fibula, apparently.
57:14 Bill Simmons? No, like, it's fine. He can move around on it. Yeah, it sounds great. I also like this Jags home crowd. I thought they were good in the Chiefs game.
57:22 Speaker 01 Okay.
57:25 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I think there, I think that crowd can dial it up every once in a while.
57:29 Speaker 01 It's funny to take the Jags and then watch Trevor Lawrence and then send each other texts. That all by itself is funny. So let's do it. I'm endorsing this pick because.
57:40 Bill Simmons? One thing I was thinking for your Sunday show.
57:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:44 Bill Simmons? Like, I wonder if there's like a Jags by 14 and a half kind of like blowout bet.
57:51 Bill Simmons? Cause like, there's a world where this game goes horrible for the Colts. You know, like Jones can't move. No, but it's just like the Jags, like they pour it on, the weather's shitty and all of a sudden you're like, whoa, and Jacksonville, they scored again. Eight to one, they're 14 and a half. I just mentioned that. All right. I like the Jags. That's one of the picks. And then last one. I knew we would agree on this one. Texans Chiefs, it's in Kansas City. Texans are plus three and a half. It's gonna be 25 degrees. It's a night game. The Chiefs have major offensive line issues, including their left tackle's gone. I think Taylor's gone too.
58:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:32 Bill Simmons? And they have the best defense in the league.
58:36 Bill Simmons? It just feels like a miracle kind of matchup for them. Depleted offensive line, cold weather. It's a cold weather and defense game. And I, I don't know, I, the Texans can run the ball. I just, I think they're really good. And I think they're gonna make the playoffs, which means they have to win this game.
58:54 Speaker 01 They, they cannot lose this game and, and still have hope of making the playoffs.
58:58 Bill Simmons? No, because they probably have to win their division.
59:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
59:01 Bill Simmons? The way this goes.
59:02 Speaker 01 Right. Yes.
59:03 Bill Simmons? So you have this one too? Texans plus three and a half?
59:06 Speaker 01 Um, I, I like the under better. I played the under because these, these two teams are both top five unders this season.
59:14 Bill Simmons? I have a parlay option for you.
59:15 Speaker 01 Okay, okay, okay. No, I'm.
59:17 Bill Simmons? Texans plus seven and a half, under 49 and a half.
59:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. See, I don't want us to parlay teams any longer. This is a parlay I can endorse. Like, we lost last week. We both love Dallas. We should have gone three and O on Thanksgiving. We love the situation. We loved the way it looked. And yet we, we took that and put that with the stupid Eagles. What, what do we, why did we do that? That was dumb. Like a team, play the team. I don't want to make two team combinations anymore with our parlays. Cause what we have to do is all these adjusted line things. But if you want to do a Houston, where like it's correlated, the idea of Houston covering that's that spread,
1:00:06 Speaker 01 the three and the and the total, you know, you push the total up. So you're you're going to finish way under the total. That makes sense to me. Now you're talking that that's like the that's, I don't know if anybody would say it's it's it's positive expected value, but at least it makes sense.
1:00:25 Bill Simmons? Well, we could either do Texans plus seven and a half under 49 and a half, or we could do Texans plus four and a half under 57 and a half.
1:00:33 Speaker 01 I'd rather do the first one of those two by far, by a long shot.
1:00:36 Bill Simmons? Seven and a half, 49 and a half.
1:00:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:00:38 Bill Simmons? All right.
1:00:38 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
1:00:39 Bill Simmons? So we'll mark that down. So we have Bears Packers with the Bears Texans with the parlay, with the Jags, with the Eagles, and we need a fifth team.
1:00:52 Bill Simmons? Dun dun dun. This is where we've gotten in trouble all year. It's always been bad right here, this spot. We always have the four bets and somehow don't have the fifth one.
1:01:05 Speaker 01 We can't lay the points with Cleveland. You're not, you don't want to go against Joe Burrow in Buffalo.
1:01:11 Bill Simmons? I don't. I don't want to go against Joe Burrow.
1:01:13 Speaker 01 I kind of do, but I understand. I understand your perspective.
1:01:17 Bill Simmons? I don't want to do that.
1:01:17 Speaker 01 You don't want to bet on Geno Smith and the Raiders getting seven and a half? I mean, the Broncos haven't covered that a number that big on the road all season.
1:01:26 Bill Simmons? I don't want to do that.
1:01:27 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:01:28 Bill Simmons? That's a no.
1:01:28 Speaker 01 But Rams cooking against the Cardinals? No, back doors open. You don't like that one?
1:01:36 Bill Simmons? I don't.
1:01:37 Speaker 01 We can't, are we really going to?
1:01:38 Bill Simmons? Do the game with your game?
1:01:39 Speaker 01 Are we going to do the Jets?
1:01:42 Bill Simmons? Jets plus three against Dolphins. The two of cold weather, just try to ride that one last time.
1:01:50 Bill Simmons? Tyrod Taylor. The resurgent Aaron Glenn.
1:01:54 Speaker 01 I kind of love it. We have a lot of Jets fans in our lives who hate themselves and hate their team and hate football, but there's a glimmer of something there with this current version of the Jets.
1:02:05 Bill Simmons? So if you, if you look at the last, since week six, Jets lose to the Broncos by two.
1:02:13 Bill Simmons? Lose to the Panthers by seven. Those are both two winning teams. Beat the Bengals, beat the Browns, lose to the Pats by 13 in a game that was competitive for a half.
1:02:25 Bill Simmons? Beaten up by the Ravens. And then they beat the Falcons last week.
1:02:32 Bill Simmons? Dolphins.
1:02:35 Bill Simmons? They got blown out in week nine by the Ravens, beat the Bills, beat the commanders with your team and you're still missing dudes.
1:02:42 Speaker 01 In Madrid.
1:02:43 Bill Simmons? And then, then barely beat the Saints last week. And it's like, the Dolphins are back. Are they? They're five and seven. They can run the ball. Achan's been good.
1:02:52 Speaker 01 They can run.
1:02:53 Bill Simmons? They've reinvented themselves as a running defense with some pass rushers.
1:02:58 Bill Simmons? All right, fine. Fuck it. Let's see the Jets.
1:03:02 Bill Simmons? We, we, we get two in 40 degree weather. That'll be fun.
1:03:06 Speaker 01 See, at least like we'll be texting about Trevor Lawrence and saying bad things about him, but it will be fun to watch two in that cold weather because they're saying like it's in the high 30s and it's the feel like will be in the low 30s and, and what two is going to feel like is getting the F off the football field.
1:03:25 Bill Simmons? By the way, he has not been good. It's not like two is the reason they're winning.
1:03:30 Speaker 01 Great point.
1:03:31 Bill Simmons? He, it's not like he's been killing it.
1:03:35 Bill Simmons? All right. So our ringer 107, today's ringer 107 brought to you by FanDuel. And we have Bears plus six and a half against the Packers. We both think that line's too high. Texans plus seven and a half parlayed with the under 49 and a half in Kansas City. We think the Texans are a live dog. We love their defense. Big, big, big offensive line issues for the Chiefs. 25 degree weather. Uh, this is a three point game. Three point game, lower scoring just feels away.
1:04:03 Speaker 01 Fine.
1:04:04 Bill Simmons? Jags plus one and a half against the Colts and Danny Dimes is a semi broken fibula. Eagles minus two and a half against the Chargers. We like when the Eagles on the road because then they're not home with their fans booing them and yelling swear words at them.
1:04:23 Bill Simmons? And then last but not least, we can never find a fifth pick we feel great about. So we're going to have to default to two and relatively cold weather, 40 degrees, maybe going against the Jets. Plus three at home, the red hot Jets have won three of their last five. Tyron Taylor, the number one special teams, DVOA.
1:04:43 Speaker 01 Give that man a ball. Give him a game ball.
1:04:45 Bill Simmons? This team, all they do is win games, sort of. That is, uh, that's our ringer 107. And all lines are subject to change on Fanduel Sportsbook. All right, that was fun. We're due for like a four and one or a five and oh, maybe it'll be this week, thanks to the Jets. Before we go, wanted to give you a Thanksgiving story.
1:05:06 Speaker 01 I'm here.
1:05:07 Bill Simmons? Got to talk about food. Do you have a good Thanksgiving, by the way?
1:05:09 Speaker 01 Thank you. Yes, incredible. Got to see family, went down to Raleigh, North Carolina, speaking of great food scenes. Crawford Brothers, new establishment from the Crawford empire. Excellent, incredible wagyu steak, incredible.
1:05:26 Bill Simmons? Wagyu.
1:05:26 Speaker 01 Wagyu.
1:05:27 Bill Simmons? So had Thanksgiving, had like nine people over, had a bunch of stuff. My mom made her baked beans. Our friend Sissy made her cornbread. I don't even, cornbread, like casserole type thing? It just was like old school. I don't know how much butter was in it, but it was, it was.
1:05:46 Speaker 01 In a casserole dish?
1:05:48 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it was a long casserole dish with, with cornbread. It almost tasted like cornbread, but more like mashed potatoy kind of cornbread.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 Oh, I'm imagining it. This sounds incredible.
1:06:01 Bill Simmons? My mom's baked beans were out of control and also great for the intestines over the next couple of days, thanks to her. We had the, the, the sweet potato casserole. Had that. We had all kinds of stuff, turkey, obviously, cranberry sauce. But all these sides, we had so many sides that my, my wife never brought out the mashed potatoes.
1:06:22 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh.
1:06:23 Bill Simmons? And we realized after the dinner that the mashed potatoes never came out because there was so much food. The mashed potatoes just got a DMP.
1:06:32 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:06:32 Bill Simmons? Out of nowhere.
1:06:33 Speaker 01 It happens.
1:06:33 Bill Simmons? They were just in the fridge.
1:06:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:35 Bill Simmons? There was creamed spinach. We had all these things. We had so much stuff that mashed potatoes never made it. And my wife was like really upset about it because she's like, how do you not have mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving? I can't believe that. And I was like, A, nobody noticed.
1:06:49 Speaker 01 Right.
1:06:50 Bill Simmons? B, we were fine, but she really felt like that was the one thing you had to have. We also had two different versions of stuffing. Forgot to mention that. I was like, no. People don't notice stuffing, not mashed potatoes.
1:07:01 Speaker 01 I, you know how much I adore your wife. She didn't miss the mashed potatoes.
1:07:07 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:07:07 Speaker 01 She also forgot. She feels like they're an elemental part and yet she, she also forgot. Like that's, you know, that, that tells the whole story.
1:07:17 Bill Simmons? Well, that, this leads me to my point. Mashed potatoes, overrated?
1:07:22 Bill Simmons? You have nine people eating Thanksgiving dinner and not even realizing that mashed potatoes weren't out there.
1:07:26 Speaker 01 Well, I don't know how crucial mashed potatoes are to a Thanksgiving spread. I just go ahead and say that because of all the other ways you can, you just described like six side dishes that are each
1:07:37 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:07:38 Speaker 01 in their own unique way. Mind blowing. You can have, and by the way, mashed potatoes a couple of days after? Awesome. Incredible. You can make mashed potatoes with scrambled eggs and, and, and they have the effect of making the eggs as light and fluffy. If you can get the ratio right, it's in, and then you get some of that, some of the, the Momofuku chili crisp and put it with the mashed potato egg. In fact, I'm, I go on Dinnertime Live and ask, ask Chef Chang to make you mashed potato scrambled eggs and get some of that chili crisp. I'm telling you, this is an 11 out of 10. You're gonna love it.
1:08:15 Bill Simmons? We should, we should have done this as a first take segment. Mashed potatoes need to step up.
1:08:22 Bill Simmons? They're getting passed by all the other potatoes.
1:08:24 Speaker 01 BNP.
1:08:25 Bill Simmons? Mashed potatoes haven't been good for years.
1:08:27 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I love mashed potatoes. So you know what I did at about eight o'clock that night?
1:08:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:08:31 Bill Simmons? I made myself a second whole plate of turkey, but I included the mashed potatoes. I brought them, brought back my friend and they were happy to be there.
1:08:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, you could put them on a sandwich that they're very, very, uh, you know, versatile, the mashed potato. You could put them in a lot of different stuff.
1:08:47 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:08:48 Speaker 01 I'm proud of you.
1:08:48 Bill Simmons? That was my Thanksgiving story. All right, we're gonna take a break. Thanks, House. We're gonna come back with Matt Bellini and then John Cena. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says The Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, now playing in theaters nationwide.
1:09:31 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything, and whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right, it's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras, and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at
1:10:14 Bill Simmons? michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right. Had to bring in our guy, Matt Bellany from Puck and from our podcast, The Town, which I love. It's great. And it's been bustling lately because there is a Warner Brothers sale that's been happening in slow motion for months and months and months.
1:10:47 Speaker 03 You call it a car crash.
1:10:49 Bill Simmons? I gotta say, Bellany, there's too much football going on. There's too much basketball. There's movies, there's screeners. I'm just not focused on it. And I know you're covering this on your pod, but I wanted to bring you on.
1:11:00 Speaker 03 That's why I'm here.
1:11:01 Bill Simmons? Give me the idiots, guy. What's happening? It seems like there's three suitors. We have Paramount really wants it. Netflix allegedly has the inside, uh, whatever, but we'll talk about that. And then Comcast is kind of looming. Those are the three suitors, correct?
1:11:18 Speaker 03 Those are. And the process right now is they are in, they're getting bids. And the guy running it, David Zasloff, who runs Warner Brothers Discovery, he is the chair of the committee that's evaluating all of these bids. And he keeps asking them to sweeten their bid. And Paramount has said that we believe we are the easiest path to getting this deal approved. They think they have an in with the Trump people because they just bought Paramount. They settled the lawsuit between Trump and CBS. They have, they, they did a big deal for the UFC. They're going to be broadcasting the, you know, the fight on the White House lawn. And they, they are making a bunch of changes at CBS that Trump
1:12:02 Speaker 03 likes. They're gonna release Rush Hour Four because Trump wants them to, because the director Brett Ratner is doing a documentary about Melania. So they've done a lot of things. You know, Larry Ellison is friends with Trump and has donated in the past. They believe they have the easiest path to get this deal approved. And that Netflix has a ton of problems getting this deal approved by the government because in the world of antitrust law, Netflix is the most powerful streaming service and they would be buying HBO Max, which is, you know, depending on what metric you use, third, fourth biggest streaming service. So that potentially has some antitrust problems in this country.
1:12:42 Speaker 03 That is what Paramount is pushing. And then today, we get this letter that Paramount sent to David Zaslove at Warner saying that they believe the process is essentially rigged, and that Zaslove is pushing this company towards Netflix because they are gonna treat him better, they're gonna give him a cushy job, and that they are the sort of preferred buyer here.
1:13:10 Bill Simmons? Wow, that's a lot.
1:13:11 Speaker 03 That's a lot, right?
1:13:12 Bill Simmons? You didn't talk about Comcast, because they're involved too.
1:13:14 Speaker 03 Comcast has sort of an also ran here so far. They are in the mix. They are seen as potentially the company that needs this the most, because they have Peacock.
1:13:25 Bill Simmons? I mean, that's my thing. They need it the most.
1:13:27 Speaker 03 Yes. And ultimately, many of the analysts that are watching this say the company that needs this the most will ultimately get it. I slightly disagree. I think it's a combination of needing it the most and having the most money, which is what the Ellison's have. They have unlimited money because Larry is worth something like $260 to $80 billion, depending on the day. And they ultimately feel like they need it because they only own Paramount, and they want to be a scaled competitor to Netflix. And you can't do that with just the Paramount Plus subscribers. You put that together with HBO and the Warner Brothers Library, and you've got a pretty compelling value proposition there. Comcast with Peacock
1:14:12 Speaker 03 does feel like they need it, though.
1:14:14 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that feels like a one plus one equals three for a whole bunch of different reasons, because I think, and Peacock's doing a little bit better. They have the Chivroy Kidnapped show.
1:14:24 Speaker 03 They do. Everyone loves that.
1:14:25 Bill Simmons? Big hit, apparently.
1:14:27 Speaker 03 They got the Traders.
1:14:28 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:14:29 Speaker 03 They got NBA now?
1:14:31 Bill Simmons? Right, they got some NBA. I feel like, right now, everything's been kind of quiet from a disruption standpoint, because everybody's got their little spots in the pecking order. And we're making less TV shows, we're making less movies, we're making less everything. Everybody's being super careful. Amazon could have been potentially a big disruptor, but they keep reorging.
1:14:54 Bill Simmons? The disruptor part that I think would be the most interesting to Paramount got it. Because then it's like, all right, we are stepping into the boxing ring now. We have a ton of IP. We have money behind us. We have a football relationship. We have UFC. We have this huge library of all these movies and TV shows and we can actually try to take a couple punches here at Netflix.
1:15:17 Speaker 03 Well, that's why, that's why many people think that Netflix is going so aggressively after this. It's more of a.
1:15:24 Bill Simmons? Well, that was gonna be my question. Yeah. Is this a defensive play or an offensive play by Netflix? They don't want, they have pole position right now. They don't want Paramount to potentially unseat that.
1:15:34 Speaker 03 Absolutely. And, and by the way, add in a little bit of a personal element. The head of streaming at Paramount Plus is Cindy Holland, who got fired by Ted Sarandos at Netflix. Yes. So they just stole the Duffer Brothers away from Netflix. They did Stranger Things and they wanted to re-sign them and then they went over to Paramount. So there's like.
1:15:52 Bill Simmons? Was it a steal?
1:15:53 Speaker 03 I, well, not for what they offered them. They offered them movies in theaters to get them to go there. Are the Duffer Brothers like directors of the kinds of movies you want to see in theaters? Maybe. We'll see. They haven't ever directed one of those before, but.
1:16:09 Bill Simmons? I want to see the advanced metrics of getting the people after their transformative huge show.
1:16:15 Speaker 03 Yes.
1:16:15 Bill Simmons? How that's gone over the last 30 years. Yeah.
1:16:18 Speaker 03 HBO makes that argument all the time that, you know, we get the greatest show out of these people. And then if Netflix wants to overpay them to take them away, God bless, go there and, you know, it's like the guys that did Game of Thrones. They got overpaid by Netflix and what did they do? They did that, um, Zero Body Problem. What was that show?
1:16:38 Bill Simmons? Well, they did that one, but they also did the, the Garfield Show, which was really good. I'm still, I still like those guys, but yeah.
1:16:44 Speaker 03 What's the Garfield Show?
1:16:45 Bill Simmons? They're probably not gonna top Game of Thrones. The, the show that, uh, Tom from, Tom from Succession's.
1:16:51 Speaker 03 Oh, oh, the one that just, that just aired. Oh, right. I have not seen that yet.
1:16:54 Bill Simmons? I'm still, I'm still okay with those guys. It's just like when you're paying people for past performance. Right.
1:16:59 Speaker 03 They paid them Game of Thrones money to do Zero Body Problem, which was not successful.
1:17:05 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Um, well, it's interesting because.
1:17:10 Bill Simmons? From a Netflix standpoint, they've never bought anything. Right? And they've kind of been proud of that. And there's this whole road and we've talked, I went on your podcast and talked about this, about media mergers. And why do we, people even do these? We had a whole conversation about this.
1:17:25 Speaker 03 Netflix said this at the Bloomberg conference that you were at. The co-CEO Greg Peters said, there is not a good track record of media mergers.
1:17:35 Bill Simmons? Like it's a terrible track record. It is, it just is. It's terrible. And you're also assimilating different cultures. You're bringing in executives with their ideas. There's always too many people. You end up doing a lot of layoffs and a lot of cuts. And it's going great for Netflix. So to me, and I haven't talked to anybody from there about why are you going after this? I'm not even sure how much I believe, but it seems totally defensive to me because people are worried about Paramount. But as somebody who's a creator who makes stuff, you, you kind of almost want Paramount to get it because now you would have like, now you have two people kind of going at it against each other for content, which would be, I think, great for everybody.
1:18:14 Speaker 03 Well, it would merge, it would take the legacy studios from five down to four. If you merge Paramount and Warner Brothers. Now, they argue that they're going to increase the number of movies and put investment into that. But ultimately you merge these services. If you merge the studios, it's one fewer buyers in the marketplace. But if you put Netflix over Warner Brothers, you could get, I mean, Warner Brothers as a theatrical studio could entirely go away. HBO Max could entirely go away. I mean, it's, it's that kind of a merger where the, the fundamental playing field of Hollywood would change significantly.
1:18:55 Bill Simmons? Well, I know you've talked about this, but if Netflix got Warner Brothers, what happens to HBO?
1:19:00 Speaker 03 Two scenarios. One is it goes away. They absorb the subscribers. They transition them.
1:19:07 Bill Simmons? I mean, that's idiotic. You can't do that.
1:19:10 Speaker 03 Or make it a tile on Netflix where you go to Netflix and there's a little box that says, you love HBO? Click. Everything you'd ever want to watch on HBO. That's one scenario. What Netflix is, what Netflix is telling people is that they would operate them separately and that there would be an HBO Max service. There will be a Netflix service. Maybe they have the same backend. Maybe they don't, but that the brands and services would remain separate. I don't know if I believe that. That's the kind of thing you say if you are trying to win regulatory approval of your big merger. But, you know, the, the goal of buying this is not to buy HBO Max necessarily. The goal is to suck up all of those Warner
1:19:52 Speaker 03 Brothers franchise movies. I mean, Netflix would own Batman. They would own Wonder Woman. They would own Minecraft. All of these big franchises would become Netflix movies. And maybe they put some of them in theaters. Maybe they don't. Maybe they do it for a couple of years, just so everyone gets off their back and Ted Sarandos can be a hero around town for releasing movies. But then maybe they backslide. I mean, that's the goal. Or they take HBO Max and they spin it off and sell it. They, there's a scenario where they buy this company or the studio and streaming side of the company at Warner, and then they take the studio and sell HBO Max to Comcast. So then they can kind of
1:20:34 Speaker 03 take what they want and Netflix can take what they want. That's one scenario.
1:20:38 Bill Simmons? So that's a library IP play. They decide they don't need HBO. They actually sell it off to make some of the money back and they're basically getting library and cockpock and paramount.
1:20:49 Speaker 03 Yes. I mean, that is very complicated because obviously what is the value of HBO? It's the brand and it's all the subscribers, but it's mostly the content that is on HBO, which presumably Netflix would want to take for themselves. It's all those Warner's movies. It's, you know, the full library of HBO shows. You could watch The Sopranos anytime you wanted on Netflix. Like that is kind of the value. And if they sell HBO Max to another company, what goes with it? Some of the library, all of it, you know, rights to the library? It's very complicated.
1:21:24 Bill Simmons? So we could get our scenario where they sell it to Apple. And we finally have Apple buying HBO, which should have happened 10 years ago. Or you have Comcast buying it and just merging HBO and Peacock and calling it HBO because nobody knows what Peacock is.
1:21:37 Speaker 03 Exactly. And, and, and the key element there is that HBO Max is global and Peacock is only domestic. So Comcast would immediately become a global streaming player and currently they are not.
1:21:52 Bill Simmons? And Comcast has some other advantages, right? With the, they, they, they have the wiring for cable and these things that maybe could help them in some other ways.
1:22:01 Speaker 03 Broadband is a declining business, but they also have theme parks.
1:22:04 Bill Simmons? Not for old people.
1:22:06 Speaker 03 Not for old people, but you know, Elon wants to make everybody a Starlink customer instead of broadband. But you know, the, the, but remember Universal has the theme parks. So that would be synergistic with the Warner IP if they were to get it. Now Warner IP is tied up at Six Flags. If you go to your local Six Flags, there's like a Superman coaster, things like that. But presumably there would be IP plays that Universal could use in the parks and ultimately transition all those heroes over to the Universal parks, which is a big business and growing for them.
1:22:39 Bill Simmons? Well, the scariest thing you said was that HBO would get absorbed in a Netflix and basically be a little carousel tile. I think that reminds me of like when going back in the early 2000s with wrestling when WWE bought WCW and basically just assimilated the roster and then just everything got lost and it just didn't work. And I, you know, I feel like there's an HBO audience. It's a distinct brand and I just think that's really hard to fold into something else. I hope that's not how this plays out.
1:23:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, but there is a lot of overlap in those customers. I mean, you, and most people who have HBO also have Netflix, right?
1:23:17 Bill Simmons? Yeah, but don't you think? The type of content you would expect from HBO that you might like. Veers a little bit different than the type that's on Netflix?
1:23:25 Speaker 03 Oh, of course. I mean, HBO is still the best brand in television because it stands for something. Netflix stands for many different things to many different people and it's dependent on the algorithm and it's not. It just means television, which is great for Netflix because it's allowed them to grow to more than 300 million subscribers. But it doesn't mean what HBO means. You and I both give a show a chance on HBO because it's HBO. When we would not give that same show a chance if it was on CBS.
1:24:00 Bill Simmons? Speak for yourself. I give every show a chance. I am not a show snob.
1:24:04 Speaker 03 But perfect example is The Pit. Did you watch The Pit?
1:24:08 Bill Simmons? I didn't watch The Pit.
1:24:09 Speaker 03 Okay.
1:24:09 Bill Simmons? But I knew a lot of people that watched The Pit.
1:24:11 Speaker 03 This year for outstanding drama series. The Pit is a fairly conventional, extremely well done, fairly conventional medical doctor show. If that aired on CBS, no way it wins the Emmy. No way it even is nominated for the top Emmy. But because it aired on HBO Max and had the premature of that brand, people saw it differently. And it not only was nominated, but won the top Emmy.
1:24:40 Bill Simmons? Well, I wonder what would have happened with The Beast in Me if it was on HBO instead of Netflix? Because I think Netflix has had some really good stuff this year and, um, you know, like even Adolescence. I thought that Garfield show was excellent. Like I think if you took the best 10 things that have been on Netflix, they could go toe to toe with any other streamer. It's just they also have a lot of other stuff.
1:25:00 Speaker 03 Yeah, look at the volume. I mean, that's what HBO always says is that they have such a higher hit rate. And I don't necessarily mean hits that are super popular, but hits that are good and that might last.
1:25:12 Bill Simmons? Higher batting average.
1:25:13 Speaker 03 Yeah, higher batting average and Netflix has so much content and so much garbage. They also have some good stuff and then the definition of good and garbage is different for every person.
1:25:25 Bill Simmons? I would argue HBO has some garbage too.
1:25:27 Speaker 03 They do, they do.
1:25:28 Bill Simmons? Especially when they have the Discovery documentaries and the all that, all that stuff that they're putting on there.
1:25:34 Speaker 03 Yes, and when HBO misses, they really miss.
1:25:36 Bill Simmons? But to me HBO is more of like a, they're like a closer. They're like throwing 60 innings. They're coming in to pitch the ninth. They have a incredible K walk ratio and Netflix is trying to be a 250 inning starter. I just think that's apples and oranges.
1:25:52 Speaker 03 Totally.
1:25:52 Bill Simmons? I don't know how that fits in together. I do think it's interesting for Comcast though, because that's the one, if I had to rank them for how would this shake up the landscape? Netflix getting it is, I think, the worst case scenario. Cause then, then it's just they become like a monolith. I just don't like that.
1:26:10 Speaker 03 Streaming wars are over. I mean, one of the analysts wrote exactly that this week. If Netflix gets Warner Brothers, like it is over. It is like the ultimate flex, the ultimate, I mean, you made the Ben Affleck analogy.
1:26:24 Bill Simmons? I said that on the phone to you today. Was Ben Affleck accepting the Batman part after he won the Oscar in Argo? And he's just like, fuck it.
1:26:29 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:26:30 Bill Simmons? Now, what can I do now? I'm just gonna be Batman. I can do anything.
1:26:33 Speaker 03 I cannot, I cannot do wrong. It just, but it's also interesting that Netflix thinks they need it. If they're real about this, if they are not just going through the motions to raise the price. If they think that they are, they need this, then there's something going on at Netflix that we don't know about. If they think they need this, because all signs point to a lot of growth potential. Margins are great. You know, they, they have good shows, good content. Like what's going on there if they feel like they need the HBO library this badly?
1:27:06 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I mean, you could look at it the other way and you go, you gotta keep growing even during times when you don't think you should keep growing. I saw this happen at ESPN in the 2011, 12, 13 range. They thought they were invincible. They thought they were gonna have this lead forever. And within five years it flipped on them and all of a sudden they were scrambling and the subs were going backwards. And it was all because of decisions they didn't make in 11 and 12 and 13, when they really could have consolidated. And then they, they almost made some misguided ones, right? Like, I don't think buying Fox was a good idea by Disney at all. I don't, especially when there's, I think, better stuff coming.
1:27:44 Speaker 03 I've been a little more forgiving on that one. I think that it's a little underrated what they did get. And we talk about Disney in a little bit of a different light since they did buy Fox. They would have scale problems and they would, they would perhaps be in more of a Comcast situation if they did not have all of that content from the FX networks. They wouldn't have Avatar for their theatrical slate. They wouldn't have the X-Men and all of those Fox Marvel properties that they're going to exploit for the next decade. There's a lot of stuff that they got from Fox content wise that doesn't now, did they probably overpay? And did it load them up with debt? They may have been made them unable to do other things that they should have done, like buy a video game company or do some of these other things?
1:28:29 Speaker 03 Maybe that's a better argument, but on a pure content play, they did get a lot of stuff from that.
1:28:35 Bill Simmons? Or you could have argued they could have invested that money in other places. They could have spent even more on sports and.
1:28:40 Speaker 03 Could have bought Electronic Arts. They could have bought a number of other things that would have been potentially additive to their business long term.
1:28:49 Bill Simmons? Or they could have waited for a Warner Brothers scenario. Um, yeah. So the Paramount piece of this, if they did get this, if they do pull this hostile takeover, this is where I need you because I just don't under like hostile takeovers. It seems like it's something out of a season seven succession episode.
1:29:08 Speaker 03 Totally.
1:29:10 Bill Simmons? It does. How often does this work? How legal is it? Is this going to end up in a scenario where just everybody's suing each other for the next five years and nothing happens until 2034?
1:29:21 Speaker 03 Well, this is the opening shot of potential litigation. This is a pre litigation letter that was sent today from Paramount to Warner Discovery saying, look, guys, we're on to you. We saw that one of your executives was meeting with regulators in Europe and there was a German newspaper report saying that they were lobbying for them to try to block this deal. If the Ellison's have the inside track in the US, Warner Discovery was supposedly going to Europe to try to head it off there. And they're like, that's not. There, if you are in bed with Netflix, I mean Ted Sarandos, the head of Netflix and David Zasloff at Warner's, they were at a UFC match together, not, you know, two months ago, they're friends.
1:30:04 Speaker 03 If this is being directed to one company over us, we are going to sue you. And that letter was directed at the independent directors of the company, the people on the board, who are not hand selected by the investors there. They are the ones that are afraid of getting sued because if they go along with a plan that does not serve the shareholders, but serves management, then they are liable if they are sued. Now, I'm not saying that's correct. You could argue that Netflix just put in the most money. They're, they're, they're offering the most money here from all the reporting. And if that's the case, then maybe they're just gonna go with the highest bidder. But if there is something sinister going on, there could be litigation.
1:30:47 Speaker 03 And even if Paramount just thinks that there's something going on, there could be litigation that spurs out of this.
1:30:53 Bill Simmons? I doubt there's anything sinister going on.
1:30:56 Speaker 03 You do.
1:30:57 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that seems really improbable to me.
1:31:00 Speaker 03 Do you know David Zasloff?
1:31:03 Bill Simmons? I know, he's been a good foil for you over the years.
1:31:07 Speaker 03 I just, he loves the spotlight. He wants to stay at this company so badly. He loves that he gets to have dinner with Charlize Theron and a bunch of people at his house. He wants to stay there and Netflix, from my reporting and others, like they're saying, yeah, you can stay at Warner Brothers. If he splits this company as he wants to and turns down Paramount and splits it and then sells off the studio separately, he gets to stay in that chair longer. And there are other incentives involved that Paramount is referencing, and I'm writing about in my Puck newsletter, that, that suggests he is doing this to keep himself at the company. Not saying that's true, but that's the suggestion at least.
1:31:50 Speaker 03 And if that's the case, that's may not be in the best interest of the shareholders.
1:31:55 Bill Simmons? So Netflix, the other piece would be the sports, that there's some sports stuff that comes with Warner Brothers too on top of the IP and Netflix is obviously taking sports way more seriously and dabbling left and right and.
1:32:08 Speaker 03 Yeah, they have March Madness. They would have some baseball. They'd have the Savannah Bananas that we all love. They do not have NBA. They do not have football. So the big two are not, not coming with this.
1:32:20 Bill Simmons? But Netflix is already getting some football.
1:32:22 Speaker 03 They are. Yeah.
1:32:23 Bill Simmons? So the case, if you're Netflix, is you're blocking Paramount from being like your one B competitor like that. You're just going to be fighting for the next 15 years who has endless pockets and now you're spending more with them. Combined with, you're doing awesome right now. That doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't keep trying to grow. I would think those are the two reasons you would do this.
1:32:45 Speaker 03 Yeah. Or some problem that we don't know about, that, you know, growth is lagging or they're seeing engagement on their existing content, or they feel like there's a cap on how big they can grow with the current assets they have. I think also.
1:32:59 Bill Simmons? I don't see that one. I feel like more people have Netflix every year.
1:33:02 Speaker 03 I know, I know. They do. It keeps going on.
1:33:04 Bill Simmons? You kind of like have to have Netflix.
1:33:05 Speaker 03 If the problems were really significant, they would have to disclose them to their shareholders. So it's not like there's some ticking time bomb there that they, that they're just not telling us about. But, you know, they're doing this for a reason. And if it's not just purely defensive and it is offensive, it may, there may be some kind of stress point where they say, okay, we've tried to make movies for 10 years now and we can't get much traction on our movies. Is that because you need to have IP in your library to make movies that people care about? They see the numbers on the movies that they license from other studios. If you go on Netflix most nights, the top movies are from other
1:33:46 Speaker 03 studios. It's Shrek, it's Minions, it's, you know, the Warner Brothers movies like Superman that they just license over on Netflix. And they're seeing that and they, so they have the data and they're probably saying like, if we owned all that, it would be so much easier and so much more of a growth generator for engagement than having to license them out and get, you know, get, get raked over the coals every few years on these licensing deals. Maybe that's what they're thinking.
1:34:16 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I don't, I'm, I see your point. I don't know if I agree with it, but the one piece that I think, like, if I was running Netflix would worry me is, like, they have a movie right now called Train Dreams. That's fucking awesome. Like, it really is. It's really, really good. I really liked it. And it's on Netflix. And I watched it on the PGA screen wrap I got. I didn't realize it was on Netflix. But it is on Netflix. And it just feels like that movie should be a bigger deal because that's like, everything you'd want an Oscar contender. It's kind of the, it's a little like Coda a couple of years ago. I don't know who made it. I have no vested interest in it. I just really liked it. And it's like that to me, it's like, if you're making, yeah, if you're making movies and Netflix
1:35:00 Bill Simmons? cares about having movies, like, that's an example of, that movie should be huge on Netflix. I'm not sure why it isn't.
1:35:06 Speaker 03 It's doing okay on Netflix for that kind of movie. But they, that's a movie they bought at Sundance, and they paid like 20 million, no, I believe it was 10 million for that movie at Sundance. I saw it at Toronto, the film festival, loved it. I would love for movies like that to get theaters. But Netflix is not in that business, so it didn't get a theater. I, I think that movie could have done okay if it had gotten a theatrical release. It's a really beautiful looking movie. That's the other element here, is whether Netflix will shut down Warner Brothers as a theatrical studio if they get this deal. They're saying no.
1:35:40 Bill Simmons? The problem is with movies now, movie theaters are back in a real way. And people like going to the movies. And Netflix is smart. And if they see, like, audience drifting a little bit this way, they're gonna want to keep a piece of that while also driving people to Netflix.
1:35:54 Speaker 03 Maybe, maybe not. I mean, Netflix has been pretty consistent over the last 10 years of trying to kneecap movie theaters at every possible opportunity. Ted has said over and over again, it's not our model. It's not our model. We do not put movies in theaters. We want people to watch movies on Netflix. Now, they make concessions for certain filmmakers. They give them a two-week release for the Knives Out movies. They give Greta Gerwig some IMAX. Like, that's what they do to get these projects. But they would prefer that we all watch their movies on Netflix, not in theaters. And that is very different from the Warner Brothers HBO Max relationship, where they would very much like us all to
1:36:37 Speaker 03 go to the theater first, and then on home video, if we want to watch it there, fine. So.
1:36:43 Bill Simmons? I think that model is gonna shift a little bit though.
1:36:45 Speaker 03 Component here.
1:36:46 Bill Simmons? No, but you can't tell me like if Netflix had one battle after another and it was in theaters for three weeks and then went right to Netflix, like Netflix wouldn't sign up for that.
1:36:55 Speaker 03 I know, I think two weeks.
1:36:56 Bill Simmons? That's where we're going.
1:36:57 Speaker 03 Two weeks is their limit.
1:36:58 Bill Simmons? Whatever it is.
1:36:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, and it would not, because it's two weeks, it would not get a national release because the theater chains will not play movies from Netflix if they don't get a proper theatrical release. So one battle after another would have been a Netflix movie for most of people who saw it.
1:37:14 Bill Simmons? Yeah, so that that would have hurt one battle after another.
1:37:16 Speaker 03 And forget one battle after another, what about the next Batman? Or the one after that?
1:37:20 Bill Simmons? What about a lot of these movies, they're advertising themselves as come see this on IMAX.
1:37:25 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:37:25 Bill Simmons? March, March 3rd.
1:37:27 Speaker 03 That's the thing is like Netflix is saying, we will honor the theatrical release for these Warner's movies, maybe now, but maybe not after a couple of years. The best thing for Netflix in the world would be is if there was a brand new A-list actor playing Batman movie that was only available on Netflix. They would love that because everybody would watch it and it would become a phenomenon and something people talk about. The whole knock on Netflix is that it's just a sea of slop and you don't remember what you actually watched. They can't create franchises out of their content. It's very difficult for them because these franchises we know as brands, for the most
1:38:09 Speaker 03 part, are theatrical movie experiences that we got up off our asses, went to the theater, saw there and remember. And there was marketing everywhere for these movies, the rewatchables. How many rewatchables have been Netflix originals?
1:38:24 Bill Simmons? I don't know, I'd have to look at the list.
1:38:26 Speaker 03 Extraction, maybe?
1:38:29 Bill Simmons? Well, Triple Frontier, we've been saving.
1:38:31 Speaker 03 Okay, so you did Triple Frontier and you did Extraction?
1:38:33 Bill Simmons? No, we haven't done it yet.
1:38:34 Speaker 03 Oh, you haven't? Okay.
1:38:35 Bill Simmons? We're waiting.
1:38:36 Speaker 03 But my point is, I know that you do mostly old movies, but the reason why those movies...
1:38:41 Bill Simmons? We don't really do anything from the last five, six years.
1:38:43 Speaker 03 But the the reason those movies are rewatchables are because they're good movies and you love them. But because you remember them and they were moments in the culture that lasted in your head. Like when you said you were doing Weird Science, I remember the billboards and marketing for Weird Science. When I was a kid, I remember that experience of going to the theater and seeing that movie. And that's what Netflix is missing out on. And and they have a hard time with that. So maybe if they buy Warner's, they'll change their model and they'll put movies like that in theaters. My guess is they won't.
1:39:18 Bill Simmons? They had Happy Gilmore two, and it felt like everybody and their brother watched that movie in the first three days.
1:39:22 Speaker 03 Totally, but you know what? That's a sequel. That's a sequel to a theatrical hit.
1:39:28 Bill Simmons? True. Well, we'll see Jay Kelly will be a good litmus test for this, right? Two big stars.
1:39:34 Speaker 03 Jay Kelly's a small movie.
1:39:36 Bill Simmons? I know, but George Clooney and Adam Sandler on the cover of your your Netflix carousel. That's not nothing.
1:39:41 Speaker 03 Yeah, they did. They, you know, they don't look up. Had Leo and Jennifer Lawrence. Similar type situation was an Oscar movie that had two big stars that they could put on the the tile. And that movie did really well for Netflix. But then again, you know, Maestro didn't do great for Netflix and that had Bradley Cooper. So they've had star driven movies.
1:40:03 Bill Simmons? That was not that movie. It was very well done, but I wouldn't say it was a great hang.
1:40:07 Speaker 03 No.
1:40:08 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I the thing with Netflix is they're always going to keep moving and they're not going to stay stationary, which is how all these big media companies, I think, have gotten into trouble over the years. If you look back at anybody, it's always like, we're doing great. Don't change a thing. And that's when you have trouble, even like Spotify, like being here the last, you know, last five and a half years, like they're constantly like, what's next? What's next? What's that? We weren't even doing video three years ago, but they were they were like, this is coming. We got to do this. And I think that's how the bigger companies think.
1:40:38 Speaker 03 Analogy of, you know, thinking you can do no wrong. The analogy for Spotify there would be let's just buy up a bunch of podcast studios and pay a bunch of stars to do podcasts because we're freaking Spotify and we're making so much money. We don't know what to do with it. And look at that, you the ringer worked and then what else?
1:40:59 Bill Simmons? Yeah, but I to defend that strategy, which was great for me and the Ringer, obviously.
1:41:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:41:04 Bill Simmons? They were trying to put the footprint in a, in a podcast, right? And, you know, at the time, I, they mistakenly thought it was defensible, but it was a mistake thinking that celebrities would lead to the same way it would be with TVs or movies where you get a celebrity that would drive an audience. And what you eventually realize is a good podcast drives an audience.
1:41:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:41:23 Bill Simmons? It's the chemistry of the host.
1:41:25 Speaker 03 How dare you speak of the Royals that way?
1:41:29 Bill Simmons? But, you know, and, and then as everything's shifting to video, I think some of the things they bought made a lot more sense in the 2010s than 2020s.
1:41:36 Speaker 03 True. No, they absolutely put a, a, a flag down in the podcast space.
1:41:42 Bill Simmons? Yeah, they said, we're in here and we're spending money.
1:41:44 Speaker 03 Yeah. My point is they overspent on an area that they were confident enough to go into because of all the success they had.
1:41:51 Bill Simmons? It led to the town with Matt Bellamy.
1:41:52 Speaker 03 It did, absolutely. But then my, but, but then the, um, you know, the Netflix situation right now is are they doing the same? Are they about to drop 60, 70 billion dollars on a theatrical oriented studio and a streamer that is overlapping with what they already have?
1:42:12 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, they have so much money. I thought the, the fact that it was a mostly cash offer.
1:42:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, about 85% cash, we are told. And then the rest is stock.
1:42:23 Bill Simmons? I was surprised by that because their stock's awesome. Anyway, so when do you think, does this play out before the end of the year? Or how long does it go?
1:42:29 Speaker 03 Warner's wants it to, but keep in mind, this isn't the end. Even if they accept an offer and start negotiating with exclusively with one party, anyone can come in at any time. Like, anyone, if there's some super billionaire out there just waiting for this all to play out, and then they accept an offer, start negotiating the deal, and someone comes in and says, wait a second, I'll give you more money. That's, I'll, I'll give you way more money than they're doing. They can, they can go with that offer like down the line. Excuse me?
1:43:00 Bill Simmons? Neil Mohan? Just got, just throwing his hat in the ring out of nowhere with YouTube?
1:43:04 Speaker 03 If YouTube did it, I think the government would probably have a word with them.
1:43:10 Speaker 03 The, the merger of the number one and number two streaming services?
1:43:14 Bill Simmons? Probably not gonna work. So Pluto and Tubi, Tubi?
1:43:20 Speaker 03 Tubi is Fox. Tubi is Fox. Maybe Tubi buys Pluto.
1:43:25 Bill Simmons? Roku?
1:43:26 Speaker 03 But Tubi, Flubow, that was a joke on hacks.
1:43:28 Bill Simmons? Roku.
1:43:29 Speaker 03 Oh, Roku. Um.
1:43:32 Bill Simmons? Charlie Coller just comes flying in off the top rope and gets.
1:43:35 Speaker 03 I haven't looked at their valuation lately, but I don't think it's quite big enough to justify this kind of expense.
1:43:42 Speaker 03 This is not easy. This is not, Paramount sold for about $8 billion. This thing is going to sell for between 60 and 70 billion probably. It's just an entirely different animal and there are only a few entities or people that can afford to make that kind of investment.
1:43:59 Bill Simmons? Maybe it'd be the guy that bought the Dodgers. Guy just has endless money.
1:44:03 Speaker 03 Mark Walters.
1:44:04 Bill Simmons? The Dodgers. Yeah, he's just, he's going nuts. I heard he's.
1:44:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, then they could air the games there.
1:44:10 Bill Simmons? I heard he's tiptoeing around some other LA assets right now, too.
1:44:13 Speaker 03 Oh, really? Then you, are you breaking some news here?
1:44:15 Bill Simmons? Uh, just keep an eye on, keep an eye on him. I don't know if he's done. Not hard to follow the breadcrumbs on it. Um, all right, Matt Bellany, we can listen slash watch you on the town, uh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Uh, we can, your social clips are out there sometimes. Lucas, we might try to get Lucas a better camera.
1:44:35 Speaker 03 I know. The town on video, 26, it's coming.
1:44:40 Bill Simmons? It's coming. Is producer Craig gonna have like his own like producer cam?
1:44:43 Speaker 03 We, we should. It really should. I would prefer the camera be on him most of the time and not me, but.
1:44:50 Bill Simmons? Well, at least you figured out your camera angle finally on the BS podcast.
1:44:52 Speaker 03 It's not like up my nose.
1:44:54 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Matt Bellany, great to see you.
1:44:56 Speaker 03 You too.
1:44:56 Bill Simmons? Thank you. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions
1:45:39 Bill Simmons? may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.
1:45:44 Bill Simmons? I can't believe this hasn't happened before. John Cena is here. So.
1:45:48 Speaker 04 We won't be able to say that after this, because it's happening.
1:45:51 Bill Simmons? It's happening.
1:45:52 Speaker 04 And it'll be like, hey, welcome back, or you're never invited here again. One of those two.
1:45:56 Bill Simmons? Well, I don't know whether you're the 17 time champ or the 14 time champ, because I've never, once they split the belts, it just became super confusing to me. You won the WWE F slash WWE title, the lineage title. That was 14 times.
1:46:11 Speaker 04 You might be asking the wrong guy.
1:46:13 Bill Simmons? But then you won the universal one three times, which I think used to be the old WCW NWA title that moved over.
1:46:21 Speaker 04 You might be able to say any stat, and I'd be like, yeah.
1:46:24 Bill Simmons? Well, I'm gonna count the 14, because I count them for the, for the Boston titles for the century, because we won six with the Pats, four Red Sox, two Celtics, one Bruins, and then you're 14. That's 27.
1:46:37 Speaker 04 If the NFL absorbs the AFL, isn't it still a Super Bowl trophy?
1:46:42 Bill Simmons? So we'll count the other three. That's great.
1:46:45 Speaker 04 No, but I don't know. I'm just trying to, I don't know. I don't know. If the NBA absorbs the ABA, isn't the NBA trophy still the NBA trophy? I think.
1:46:53 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you're right. I think you're right. I think you've, it's 14. I think the three are over there.
1:46:59 Speaker 04 We can semantics all day long.
1:47:00 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:47:00 Speaker 04 I think what's important about championships in our business is it is pretty, it is the business card to show you're at the pinnacle of your profession. So regardless of like the origin story of it or whatever, when we deem this leather and gold, this thing that is manufactured, like, okay, this is, this is it, you know, it's,
1:47:24 Speaker 04 it's, it's not as muddy of water as like boxing, but it's, it is, it is the symbol of like, hey, we're placing a pretty sizable investment on you.
1:47:34 Bill Simmons? Well, and it's the culmination. I mean, you especially, like you played football late 90s. You do some bodybuilding. You were in that. There's like on YouTube, that Discovery show where they did about, what was that? OPW? I don't remember.
1:47:47 Speaker 04 Ultimate Pro Wrestling. It was here in Orange County.
1:47:50 Bill Simmons? Yeah. So you're trying to figure out your shtick, all that stuff. But within five years, you're the champ. But I always feel like when that, when somebody wins the champ the first time, the championship, the first time, you can kind of see the disbelief in their face, even though, you know, maybe you know it's gonna happen, but just like, holy shit, this actually happened and I did it and I climbed the mountain and I'm here.
1:48:12 Speaker 04 Well, I, that's an interesting perspective. If you saw, I just was able to perform one last time in the TD Garden in Boston. And on that night, I was able to have a match for the Intercontinental Championship.
1:48:27 Bill Simmons? Right?
1:48:28 Speaker 04 Which I won for the very first time.
1:48:31 Bill Simmons? It was your last one, right?
1:48:33 Speaker 04 My face is like, what's going on? So I, I don't know if that wears off. I, that's an interesting perspective because every person I've seen, when they win it for the first time, has some sort of like look of surreal appreciation. But it was the same look I had a few weeks ago when I won the Intercontinental Championship for the first time in 20, you know, my 23 years, I've never had a chance to go for it.
1:49:02 Bill Simmons? Well, it's like, think about it, especially because wrestling's been in everyone's lives from day one, right? So like, I think about my son.
1:49:09 Speaker 04 I like to, that's what we're trying for.
1:49:11 Bill Simmons? Well, my son had the championship belt when he was six, seven, you know, and doing moves and beating, beating up a pillow and pinning the pillow and then doing this. And then you think when you're an adult, it's actually happening. But I, even like when Hogan won, when he beat the Sheik, you could, he seemed like, everybody has the same look in their face like, ah, I can't believe it. And the crowd's going nuts and.
1:49:30 Speaker 04 I, yeah, I, it's weird because you, you do make a good point. Like it is part of the curated experience of entertainment, yet it happens. I, I also think there might be, I don't think this is our business in particular, maybe. Nothing, nothing truly happens until it does. You know, there's a lot of stuff that can happen between even the bell ringing and the bell ringing again, that, that can change outcomes or whatever. And these are moments, hopefully anyone who's involved in WWE's, you know.
1:50:05 Speaker 04 Thought about their entire life and when they happened it it there probably is a wave of surrealism that comes over them, you know?
1:50:11 Bill Simmons? Were we like 27?
1:50:13 Speaker 04 Man, again.
1:50:14 Bill Simmons? There's 2005, how old are you in 2005? Like 27, 28, you're late twenties at that point.
1:50:19 Speaker 04 Yeah, we'd have to.
1:50:20 Bill Simmons? But you'd only been in the business for like five years.
1:50:23 Speaker 04 Yeah, I don't um, so I don't know how much that matters. I don't know how much I care about that anymore. I think um.
1:50:29 Bill Simmons? I'm just saying it happened fast. You went from like trying, oh, it'd be nice if I could get a WWE contract to.
1:50:36 Speaker 04 To be in the.
1:50:37 Bill Simmons? I'm holding the belt.
1:50:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, that is a pretty fast.
1:50:40 Bill Simmons? At a WrestleMania.
1:50:41 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, but in in all fairness, uh, in the in the class I was brought up in in the time, you know, life is a is a whole lot of luck and and I was very lucky to be brought in at the time that I was brought in. So many tectonic changes were going on in WWE. I was in a very gifted class.
1:50:59 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you were.
1:51:01 Speaker 04 There were members of my class that were made champion far before me with just about or a little less experience. So it was just a case of good timing and I think opportunity is a lot about good timing and it's just a matter of what you do with it.
1:51:18 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it was such a strange era for WWE because it was like it coming off the most scorching hot time in the history of the company, right? You have this run with The Rock and Stone Cold.
1:51:27 Speaker 04 And this whole um.
1:51:29 Bill Simmons? He defeats WCW.
1:51:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, well, it's yeah, the whole the whole mindset of like attitude and racy programming and competition. And then it's all kind of washed away. Like it was, we're we're kind of in the the middle of what another boom in in wrestling.
1:51:47 Bill Simmons? No question.
1:51:48 Speaker 04 You know, there's there's multiple avenues of competition. Uh, there's multiple outlets of programming out there. WWE has so much programming out there and.
1:51:58 Speaker 04 To somebody like me who just doesn't have a lot of time to invest in everything. It's like, man, I don't know how we sustain all this, but to our consumer, they want more. The more we can give them, the better. People are actually going to sit down and listen to this because this hopefully is going to drop some breadcrumbs on, you know, December 13th.
1:52:14 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:52:14 Speaker 04 And they want more. They want to hear more. If I could sit down with you for five hours, I have a feeling our consumers would hang in there for it. It's just, um, we're in another, another golden age. You know, I certainly one was when it nationalized and WWF was put on cable television. I think that Hogan on the cover of Sports Illustrated, I think that was one. I think the attitude era and the height of WCW, WWF competition was another one.
1:52:41 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:52:42 Speaker 04 And I think here we are in, in yet another golden age, like a, like a boom.
1:52:46 Bill Simmons? There was a little mini one when you and Punk were feuding. I remember that was the first year of Grandland, but I felt like the internet had gotten really good at trying to read between the lines of what was real, what was not real. And it became like this own game. It wasn't as big as the things you mentioned, but something, it's definitely some sort of little mini era.
1:53:03 Speaker 04 So like a moment of relevance is, is different. Like that, that unbelievable night that Phil and Punk had was amazing. And when it gets picked up by genuine sports outlets, like, oh, man, he really did something great.
1:53:19 Bill Simmons? Yeah. It was good for you too.
1:53:22 Speaker 04 It was, I think it was good for everyone.
1:53:24 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:53:24 Speaker 04 The Montreal Screw Job is another moment. It's like, wow, this got picked up by a lot of folks and it was a, it was a moment, but it was kind of in a lull in the business. What I mean like boom, I mean like sustained bull market. Like wrestling is on everybody's mind from 1984 to like 1988. And then from like 1997 to 2001.
1:53:50 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:53:50 Speaker 04 And now it's been like, I think, I think COVID helped us out a lot. We were the only program that ran during the pandemic.
1:53:56 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that's a good point.
1:53:57 Speaker 04 To give fans entertainment.
1:53:58 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:53:59 Speaker 04 But it's probably been like 18, 19 to 25. Like it's, it's grown exponentially, the, the better TV deals, uh, being able to reach more global audience, having a crop of new stars and having the old stars kind of fade and transition, but like having the bullpen stacked.
1:54:17 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:54:18 Speaker 04 I think is, has helped. And the fact that now it's, it's. Relatively easy to be a performer on TV. And I'm saying comparatively speaking, before there was only one Monday Night Raw with two hours of broadcast time on it. Now there's a bunch of different shows. TNA just announced another TV deal. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on. There's a way for you as a performer to put your business card out there. You know, like, now it's been, it's been a great time to be a wrestling fan and it's been a great time to be a wrestler.
1:54:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's a good point, because, like, when you came up, there was way less shows. WCW got integrated in and there just wasn't enough time for everybody. Everybody was pretty miserable for the most part.
1:54:56 Speaker 04 So WWE had birthed SmackDown, so went from two hours to four hours. But we absorbed ECW and WCW. They absorbed like 250 contract talent for four hours of television.
1:55:10 Bill Simmons? With seemingly no real plan. Because you're just kind of adding, it would be like if the NBA just doubled the amount of players in the league but had the same amount of teams or something.
1:55:18 Speaker 04 Yeah. So it's, and we went through a name change. Get the F out. So we became WWE. XFL failed for the first time.
1:55:26 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:55:26 Speaker 04 Stone Cold Steve Austin was fired. The Rock went to Hollywood. Triple H was hurt. The Undertaker was hurt. Like, people don't understand, especially performers now, it's very difficult to tell them, you know, we just, we just did Petco Park with like 46,000 people in it. It wasn't, we sold seats that didn't have a ring view. You had to watch on a monitor, but you could say you were there.
1:55:47 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:55:49 Speaker 04 Man, I remember doing, it was formerly known as the MCI Center in DC, where Dave Bautista's wife sang the National Anthem. And there were 1,200 people in the building. Not 1,200 tickets sold, 500 tickets sold. 1,200 people.
1:56:03 Bill Simmons? Wow.
1:56:03 Speaker 04 In where I'm, I'm essentially going to have my last match. You know, like, it hasn't always been this prosperous. And it really warms my heart to be able to look around the arenas and see the place jam-packed and the people excited, to see the promotion thriving, to see... The talent really do well for themselves in a performative aspect and certainly like a financial aspect. They're getting paid a whole lot more than I was, but instead of like shaking my fist and saying, well, back in the day, we only made this much. I think that's a great way to show like, I just want to leave the place better than I found it.
1:56:43 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:56:43 Speaker 04 So now we got a bunch of millionaires because the company's doing well. Like it's leveled up. It is leveled up in every aspect. Sports families are bringing us in. ESPN's welcomed us into our family. Netflix has welcomed us into their family. Like we're out there all the time. We used to have to struggle to get like a good time slot in Germany and you have to do all these international TV deals. But now we're just on Netflix. So that helps global touring, which can keep demand high in the States. Like it does so much, which can keep the business hot for longer, which we can pay talent better and create more stars. It's all really, really, really good. I'm just happy to be able to like, see the beginning of this snowball and get kicked
1:57:28 Speaker 04 downhill and see where it goes.
1:57:31 Bill Simmons? You also seem like you have like four different generations of fans at this point, right? You have like people like me, anyone over 50, who were there, who remember like pre cable, who remember like when Killer Khan broke Andre the Giant's ankle and when Subisco turned on Bruno, all that, all that stuff.
1:57:49 Speaker 04 Sure.
1:57:50 Bill Simmons? And then you have the kids that kind of came up during that Hogan era, that they got indoctrinated that. Then you have the kids.
1:57:57 Speaker 04 Attitude era.
1:57:57 Bill Simmons? Then the kids from Rock Stone Cold, that era. And then basically your era through punk and those people are now adults.
1:58:05 Speaker 04 I know.
1:58:05 Bill Simmons? They're like my kid. Yeah. Or they're bringing, or they're going after college and they can afford tickets now.
1:58:11 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:58:11 Bill Simmons? So it's just, it just feels like it's gone and gone on and on.
1:58:15 Speaker 04 And I also think this was great about the business. Like you're right, it does touch a lot of hearts and minds and everyone has their story. Everybody remembers like. Their one moment from that era of like, no, but nothing was better than this.
1:58:29 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:58:30 Speaker 04 Comparatively speaking, I think a lot of people view Saturday Night Live like this. Saturday Night Live is like, no, this cast was the best and this skit was the best and this moment was the best. And then someone else would be like, how can you say that when this year was the best and this cast and remember this skit? They've done so much great work and they've had so many rosters of stacked comedians that they do have eras. And they do have like the best of this era and it is, it is zeitgeist generational comedy. So like if it, if it moves you in a certain way, you can watch some of those skits back with somebody who's never seen him and be like, they might not, it might not resonate, you know what I'm saying? Just like if you watch, Hogan Sheik was the first match I ever saw that hooked me.
1:59:15 Speaker 04 But you show, you know, a young mind who watches the way the business is now, you show them that match back, it might not resonate with them. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it was just, it was what I needed to see at the time.
1:59:25 Bill Simmons? Well, they always say with SNL that whatever, whoever, whenever you were watching the show when you were 13, that's what you thought your favorite cast was? And wrestling's probably somewhere between 10 and 13 that those, when you were all in. I remember watching with my son and I knew it was gonna happen because he was like this physical kid, like very, very expressive. And I was like, he's gonna get hooked. And we took him to the Staples for one of the shows and that was it.
1:59:49 Speaker 04 Man.
1:59:49 Bill Simmons? And you were, you became his guy immediately.
1:59:52 Speaker 04 Well, he hasn't watched enough wrestling.
1:59:53 Bill Simmons? No, you were, you were, you were like the little kid catnip.
1:59:57 Speaker 04 Thank you so much.
1:59:58 Bill Simmons? I showed you two pictures that you had with my son when he was like six. I was trying to think like, how many pictures do you think you've taken with little kids? So is it over a million?
2:00:08 Speaker 04 I don't know.
2:00:09 Bill Simmons? Think like 20, 22, 23 straight years of you posing with.
2:00:14 Speaker 04 I could say as many as I possibly can. Because if there was anyone that I couldn't or anyone that I refused, I'd like to think that I had good reason for it. And I don't expect anybody to understand that, but like to this point now, and I'm not saying those pictures are over. I, I hope they continue because as I.
2:00:31 Bill Simmons? Definitely not over.
2:00:32 Speaker 04 As a conduit to bring new minds to the business. But I would like to think from the second I was asked to take the first picture to right now, I have taken as many as I possibly can.
2:00:41 Bill Simmons? Well, and you're always nice too, because I always ask.
2:00:43 Speaker 04 Not always nice, I'm a human being.
2:00:45 Bill Simmons? No, with the kids, you understood the game.
2:00:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:00:48 Bill Simmons? And the kids are like, deer in the headlights, freezing as they're standing next to you.
2:00:52 Speaker 04 I don't think that's understanding the game. I think that's understanding the life. Like, the conduct of some adults, I'm huge on respect. It's one of my core values. I wear it on my hat.
2:01:06 Speaker 04 Sometimes is extremely self-serving, and I don't mind that. We're all out to do our own thing. Kids are so honest.
2:01:14 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:01:15 Speaker 04 They're honest, and you can see when an adult wants to approach you and the kid does not. And you can see when a kid wants to approach you and doesn't have the courage. Or if that kid is courageous and comes up to approach you, even if it's, even if their social skills aren't honed, even if they're disrespectful. Like, I gotta give a tip of the cap to a young person who is confident in self enough to come up and convey like, hey, I'd like to do this. I'd like a picture. And there have been some moments where like, parents are shoving their kids at me where the child does not want this. It is a vehicle for the parents. And sure, the parent may be thinking someday you'll wish you took the picture, but that's not someday, we're now.
2:01:55 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:01:56 Speaker 04 And that kid does not want any part of it. And I'll politely try to get to the kid's height and explain that like, it's okay if you don't want to do this, it's fine. In those situations, I want to try to take seconds I don't have. I have barely a few seconds to speak with adults who come at come at any sort of relationship agenda from a selfish perspective. That's all.
2:02:19 Bill Simmons? I was in the best situation. When my kids were little, my daughter is two years older than my son. And we would go backstage to some of the WD stuff, and she would be the handler trying to get photos for him. Nobody could say no to her. Wasn't a parent.
2:02:32 Speaker 04 It's a good game.
2:02:32 Bill Simmons? And the wrestlers were always like, this is great. Yeah, yeah, I'll do it.
2:02:36 Bill Simmons? What's interesting about your career is, I gotta ask, like, nobody retires in professional wrestling or boxing.
2:02:42 Speaker 04 Nobody but me.
2:02:44 Bill Simmons? Nobody. So why are you different? Why is this actually happening?
2:02:47 Speaker 04 Because.
2:02:48 Bill Simmons? Why should I believe you're not gonna be back in three years from now?
2:02:51 Speaker 04 You don't have to believe anything you don't want to.
2:02:55 Speaker 04 What? What I've been able to do over 23 years is turn a lot of nonbelievers around.
2:03:05 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:03:05 Speaker 04 And that is by my actions. I don't expect anyone to believe that like, hey, I'm retiring. Oh, no. The precedent hasn't been set. The precedent for wrestling retirement is like a wrestling wedding. Like something's gonna go wrong in the wedding. No one ever retires.
2:03:20 Bill Simmons? Good point. Has there ever been a successful wrestling wedding?
2:03:23 Speaker 04 Never, never. So I understand the skepticism and you'll know I'm serious when I never come back.
2:03:32 Bill Simmons? Why do you think The Rock kept coming back, other than money? Cause he left a bunch of times and became a pretty big movie star and didn't need to come back.
2:03:40 Speaker 04 So you, it's difficult there because you're asking me to think for somebody else.
2:03:43 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:03:45 Speaker 04 I know that I want to do it forever. I can speak from my perspective.
2:03:49 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:03:50 Speaker 04 Every, this is something I've heard a lot this past year. Man, you're going out on your own terms. That's bullshit.
2:03:57 Speaker 04 I want to do it forever. When you've been there live, like to anyone out there who doesn't understand what WWE is, just go live. Like.
2:04:06 Bill Simmons? Did you just look at the camera? That was impressive.
2:04:08 Speaker 04 Sure, indeed. I'm just trying to.
2:04:09 Bill Simmons? I didn't realize you were gonna put performer on me. That's great.
2:04:12 Speaker 04 I want to let everybody out there know, you know, like when you step in that building live, it's just a different energy.
2:04:18 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:04:19 Speaker 04 And I never want to let that go. But my body hurts. I'm a step slower. I promised myself and the fanbase like when I started, before I won that first championship. When I'm a step slower, I'm out.
2:04:34 Bill Simmons? And yet some people are saying you're having some of your best matches ever this year.
2:04:37 Speaker 04 Yeah, but it's all I have left. That's what people don't understand. And I want to go out at a level that is still passable and in some twinkles admirable.
2:04:52 Speaker 04 And not have to rely on luck. You know, I, I, I got one date left. I have given my heart and soul to this year. It has taken a lot to just do 35 dates. Whereas before I do 220 in my sleep. Like it is time to move on and.
2:05:09 Bill Simmons? Two 20 in a year.
2:05:11 Speaker 04 Easy.
2:05:11 Bill Simmons? So the eighties, it was like 330.
2:05:13 Speaker 04 That's the thing.
2:05:14 Bill Simmons? Then it trickled down.
2:05:15 Speaker 04 Now, now, uh, I saw a stat, I think, um, I think LA Knight has had the most WWE matches this year in 70.
2:05:23 Bill Simmons? Wow.
2:05:23 Speaker 04 And I see that, and again, it makes me smile. It's like now talent can wrestle longer.
2:05:28 Bill Simmons? Well, in the eighties, they're just hopping in cars and just driving in the next place.
2:05:31 Speaker 04 It was, uh, when it got national, it was different. Like they would, they would do, um, morning matinee in Toronto, and then they would do the garden. So like they would, there were like three units running. It was, it was a true live event juggernaut. Not that it isn't anymore.
2:05:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's more.
2:05:46 Speaker 04 Do, do a ton of events as much as you can, you know, and it, that's, um, I think the, the concept of, of TKO is to try to pick your spots, try to make every event, you know, out of control special as big as you can and, and, uh, look at the globe instead of just the US.
2:06:03 Bill Simmons? So you said your body is obviously different after.
2:06:07 Speaker 04 Man, I, I.
2:06:08 Bill Simmons? After an entire century of wrestling.
2:06:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's a half century, a quarter century.
2:06:12 Bill Simmons? What were the worst injuries? I remember you tore your pack.
2:06:14 Speaker 04 Tore my pack, tore both triceps.
2:06:17 Bill Simmons? Both triceps?
2:06:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, uh, broke my neck.
2:06:21 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that was, that was probably the most dangerous one, right?
2:06:24 Speaker 04 The most dangerous one, because if, if not treated, like, it's okay, so my tricep tears, that's, that's serious. But if left to its own devices, eventually some of it will grab on somewhere. Or it'll just like stay torn and I'll have a dent in my arm. Same with the pack, like maybe it won't attach, but I, you know, I can still move like 75% of my body. When a disc ruptures in your neck and it gets, um, pressed against the, all the energy and the, the cords and stuff that tell you to move, it can shut that stuff down.
2:06:55 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:06:56 Speaker 04 So that, that was, uh, weird because it was like outpatient. I remember getting fusion and going to SmackDown.
2:07:03 Bill Simmons? You got the fusion?
2:07:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, I was, it was early on. Uh, Dr. Maroon did fusion on me in 2007 or 2008. But I remember going under on Tuesday morning and then going to SmackDown in Pittsburgh. Like walking in to say hello to everybody and it was like, what the? Didn't you just get neck surgery? But it was, it was like a-
2:07:19 Bill Simmons? Well, plus like the history of wrestling, some that sidelined some of the biggest stars we had. Like Stone Cold's-
2:07:25 Speaker 04 True, but then again, like I've all, you know, I, I started playing football at 15, so I started late, which is good, but I'm all, I was always in the pit, in the trenches, so to speak. So you have eight years of full contact football.
2:07:36 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:07:37 Speaker 04 Could be putting a bar on the back of my neck with heavyweight for an extended period of time. Plus all the, you know, combative action that's involved in the sports entertainment. It's, I think it's just overall wear.
2:07:48 Bill Simmons? Well, and also as you're, as you're, as the 2000s are going along, we move into the 2010s. Wrestling is just becoming crazier and crazier with the, with the bumps.
2:07:59 Speaker 04 So-
2:07:59 Bill Simmons? It's the-
2:07:59 Speaker 04 So that's all, that's all-
2:08:00 Bill Simmons? The bar keeps raising.
2:08:02 Speaker 04 That's all performative choice.
2:08:03 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:08:04 Speaker 04 If you see the stuff that I do, it's not, it's as crazy as I can get.
2:08:09 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:08:09 Speaker 04 But it's-
2:08:10 Bill Simmons? You're not doing the Shane McMahon jumping 25 feet off of a steel cage.
2:08:13 Speaker 04 And again, those are performers' choices. I'm, I tend to lean more on, uh, why are we fighting? What is the story? What, what is the reason I want to go in and yell for one guy and, and boo the other guy? And I think I, I, my hat's off to the athleticism that some of our performers possess.
2:08:37 Speaker 04 But you know, like that, the average NFL career is only so long because you have to be the best athlete.
2:08:44 Bill Simmons? Yeah. If you're a tight end, if you're Gronk, that's not going to be a 20 year career.
2:08:48 Speaker 04 So again, the, the more, the more you ask of yourselves, and I'm not saying for people not to try hard, but there, there's a lot of different ways to tell stories in wrestling.
2:08:57 Bill Simmons? Do you worry that, did you worry as this was happening that the, the bar was getting too crazy? For, for what the bumps were?
2:09:05 Speaker 04 No, I've, and again, I don't, I don't mind performers choosing to take their time to do what they want with it. I totally respect that. I've always had a good- Understanding of what I can do and what I can offer.
2:09:19 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:09:19 Speaker 04 And I've only tried to go outside of that maybe once or twice. And that's when I've like, oh, my God, I almost killed myself.
2:09:27 Bill Simmons? So do you remember what was it?
2:09:29 Speaker 04 Um, I tried to take a, like, I don't flip over well. And I tried to take a suplex where I flipped over. I didn't practice it. I just wanted to do the best I could for the person I was with. It was like, yeah, don't worry about it. I'll figure it out. I want to be OK for you. Almost broke my neck. Like, it's just stuff that, um, thinking that I was smarter than the business.
2:09:50 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:09:51 Speaker 04 You know, and those, those were mistakes, but I'm, I'm, I'm OK.
2:09:56 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you seem like out of all the, all the people who became superstars, almost like the, the most self-aware of what you could, couldn't do, how far you should push your character. I mean, you didn't, you didn't become a quote unquote heel until this year. I mean, you did it earlier in your career, but.
2:10:12 Speaker 04 That's not, um, that's not my choice. It's not my choice to go out there and, and play a good guy or a bad guy. That's, that's above me. That's a level above.
2:10:22 Bill Simmons? Well, it's a little bit your choice. You were one of the biggest stars in the, that they had. You, you have some say in it, though, yeah?
2:10:28 Speaker 04 I don't view it as my choice. I don't want the stress of that. I've never done this. Like, I don't.
2:10:37 Speaker 04 You, you tell me, am I a good guy or a bad guy? Tell me who you want me to face? How long will we be working together? And that's when I want to get into the sand. This is the story I'd like to tell. These are the details I'd like. Like, I never pick opponents, never curated my stuff.
2:10:55 Speaker 04 Hey, we want you to turn heel. Or like, hey, the crowd's booing. You guys should turn me heel. No, it's not that. It's not my sandbox. I think, uh, in, in my perspective, a pro. Takes the tools that you're, or takes the, the the subject matter that you're given and tries to make it something special.
2:11:13 Bill Simmons? So you trust the people who are paid to make these decisions, that they're gonna make the right decision?
2:11:18 Speaker 04 Whether I-
2:11:18 Bill Simmons? Really, that was Vince forever.
2:11:20 Speaker 04 The answer, that's yes, but whether I trust them or not, it's, it's their choice to make. So they say, be a good guy. Okay, no problem. In my mind, this is what I think a good guy is, and this is how I think a good guy would act. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. Like, that's the difference. I, I do see a lot of performers spend their time, invest their time, to try to curate their own destiny.
2:11:47 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:11:47 Speaker 04 And again, not wrong. It's, wrestling is a chicken soup business. There's no wrong way to do it. I just always wanted to know what you need,
2:11:58 Speaker 04 the outcome you want, the piece in the chessboard I can play, and, and can I do it my way? Like, once we get all those things together, can I do it my way? Is that fine?
2:12:09 Bill Simmons? Well, there's one other piece that you're really good at. And I, it's funny, because sports talk is a little like this too, or being on TV or being in crews. I've talked about this a lot on my podcast. When you're with somebody every day, when you're with them once in a while, when you're on a show that has five people on it, you have to sell to other people and they sell you, and it's a quid pro quo, right? And if other people that you're with are doing well too, that's good for you. And if they're selling you, that's also good for you. And a lot of people don't understand that. Wrestling, I think, is the ultimate example of that, because-
2:12:41 Speaker 04 Talk more about that. What do you mean?
2:12:42 Bill Simmons? Well, to have a good match, both people have to buy in. You have to sell the person you're with. They have to sell you. It, you know, it can't just be a one-person thing. It's gotta be both of you. And I think you've been really good over the years at always having good match. Like, there, there's been other people, right? Like this, right? Like, like, Rick Flair was always like famously, always had good matches. Was always good at the other person, always came off well. When you wrestle Rick Flair. I think that was the case for you.
2:13:09 Speaker 04 So, uh, it, again, it depends on the match, right? Like, um, and I, I've been in all sorts of stories.
2:13:16 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:13:17 Speaker 04 When you are told, uh, hey, I'm the good guy. You're the bad guy. You have four minutes on television, and the purpose of our four-minute commercial is to make John look unstoppable.
2:13:30 Speaker 04 So the way you can do the best for me, for you, and for the match is to bump like a madman and lose.
2:13:41 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:13:42 Speaker 04 A flip scenario, this is the famous Suplex City match with Brock Lesnar at Summerslam after he defeated The Undertaker. How does one follow breaking the streak? The most mythical thing in sports entertainment that a lot of us thought would never end, and this beast breaks it.
2:14:03 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:14:04 Speaker 04 I'm up next.
2:14:05 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:14:06 Speaker 04 How do we follow that?
2:14:07 Bill Simmons? I think I went to that match.
2:14:08 Speaker 04 It was in LA, so you probably did.
2:14:11 Bill Simmons? I did. I thought you were gonna die.
2:14:14 Speaker 04 Exactly. So how do we make this guy, who won this huge thing, definitely not a fluke? If I went out there and had a 50-50 performance with Brock Lesnar, Brock Lesnar is capable of making anyone look fantastic, by the way.
2:14:28 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:14:29 Speaker 04 But that didn't help Brock, that didn't help the story, and it didn't help all of us.
2:14:34 Bill Simmons? I can't say that night was a good time, watching you getting annihilated.
2:14:37 Speaker 04 And that's another thing. When you sit there live, it is a one-episode thing, but it's not.
2:14:44 Bill Simmons? It's the vibe, it gets weird, because people are like, oh my god.
2:14:47 Speaker 04 So.
2:14:48 Bill Simmons? Is he gonna really get hurt here? What's happening?
2:14:50 Speaker 04 Knowing, there's a lot of things here, and I love talking about this, I could talk about it all day. What is the purpose of the match?
2:14:59 Bill Simmons? Well, it's always audience reaction, right?
2:15:02 Speaker 04 No.
2:15:03 Bill Simmons? What is it?
2:15:04 Speaker 04 It depends. The purpose of that match was to get Brock Lesnar over strong on our most cherished, strong, and believable intellectual property. If he can beat The Undertaker, he's a beast. If he just destroys John Cena, I want you.
2:15:22 Bill Simmons? Now he's a monster.
2:15:23 Speaker 04 I want you uncomfortable and looking over to your shoulder friend being like, who the F is gonna beat this guy?
2:15:29 Speaker 04 And along comes somebody like Roman Reigns. Finally, he can do it. You know, like, and that, those moments, you leverage that SummerSlam, that single serving packet. In a microcosm, this is why I said you got a lot of stuff there. In a microcosm, and this is the first time I'm reflecting on this year, because it's a narrative that's going, but we got one left, so who cares? The match Cody and I had at WrestleMania. Which was awesome. Some people would say different, but it was not the end of our story. It was like the end of act one. Knowing that like, you got Cody, you gotta turn bad. Eventually, this is gonna happen.
2:16:11 Speaker 04 We need you to peak at SummerSlam. That's the end. Performers get in their head, just like they get, you had said, like, performers wanna, wanna show the best they can, thinking that's best for the match. They also get in their head that like WrestleMania is the end. I gotta go out for WrestleMania and tear the house down. I'm not saying you don't. It's like the NFL playoffs for wrestling, basically. If it's the first chapter of your book, it's not. You can't end the book in chapter one. So we had a very by design, we had a very methodical match, with a very simple end. And we thought, you know, we thought we would have some parts and players, those disappeared. It didn't matter, because it was the end of act one. So we had like act two and then act three.
2:16:55 Speaker 04 And then if you compare what we did in April, to what we did in August, which is- Yeah, what am I, one of the matches was awesome. Maybe it was the summer, I got confused. The SummerSlam one was awesome. Because that was the end of our story. And that's the ride we're taking fans on. But it's, it's, it's as difficult to conceptualize as, you're not coming back. Like, no, everybody comes back. You just, you had this match at WrestleMania that, that left, I wanted more. Yeah, no kidding, you're gonna get it. Yeah. Because although we know that like WrestleMania is the end of our season, when it came to Cody and I, that was just the beginning for us. And, and certainly just the beginning for me after them choosing to say, well, now you're a bad guy.
2:17:39 Speaker 04 Okay, I'm a bad guy in February. I got to the middle of April to figure this out. What's the best way I can do it? And what's the best way I can do it, integrate it? And then- Uh, look at my morality in August. You know what I'm saying? That's a short time to accomplish all that, but you have to be. It's like rating a TV season, like if you're doing Breaking Bad or something. Commit. Yeah. You gotta get, you gotta get suplexed 19 times and lose sometimes. Yeah. To, to know what's on the other side. And, and the Cody thing, what had to do with Cody and I, me with me and Brock, I'm getting, I'm getting killed for Roman. I'm, I'm hoping like, man, keep going, hope you get it over. If it's not you, Brock's, Brock's gonna keep on this path and hopefully somebody, you know?
2:18:23 Speaker 04 But like it's, I never ask, how can I look good? When I sit down with an opponent, um, I, I love anecdotes. I have a, the first time I ever worked with AJ Styles. Yeah. He is the nicest human being in sports entertainment. And I always have some sort of, I can find some energy of like, you said this about me in an interview once, or like, man, I don't like the way you work or whatever.
2:18:49 Speaker 04 AJ's such a good guy. And I sat down, I'm like, man, this is, this is gonna be okay. Why are we fighting? He said, what do you mean? Why are we fighting? I want to be the champ. That's not good enough.
2:19:00 Speaker 04 Take a second to yourself, figure out why we're fighting. I went on my bus, scoured the web to try to find out anything this guy's ever said, just anything, a sentence. Never speaks bad about anybody. Yeah. So then I came back to him and like literally after two and a half hours, he was finally like, okay, this is, this is AJ, this isn't Alan.
2:19:20 Speaker 04 But maybe AJ's thinking that if you were never around, I would be where you're at and I'd be so much better because when in that ring, I am better. I'm like, we got it. And we built our story, culminating with the, even the match at the Royal Rumble with. I AJ am a better in-ring performer. You are charismatic, but hella lucky. You put these two in a ring together and I will run circles around you every time. And that's where audiences are like, your son would be like, hell no, that's my guy. Anybody that watched TNA would be like, our guy's finally getting a shot. This dude's awesome. Wait till he can do his stuff.
2:20:04 Speaker 04 And now you're divided and now you're interested. And that's, that's an issue that you can run with, but you have to sit and ask, why are we fighting?
2:20:15 Bill Simmons? Well, you just tapped into the most important word in the history of wrestling, jealousy. It's been like 80% of the rivals, rivalries, right?
2:20:24 Speaker 04 I think that's because it's something that people understand.
2:20:25 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:20:26 Speaker 04 Those stories have to come from a place redemption, jealousy, anger.
2:20:33 Bill Simmons? Why you and not me?
2:20:35 Speaker 04 Whatever it is.
2:20:36 Bill Simmons? It should have been me is great. It always works.
2:20:38 Speaker 04 Stole this from me.
2:20:39 Bill Simmons? They did that with Hogan all through the eighties. It was Paul Andrade was the first one. It was great. And then Macho Man was the, was the best of all of them.
2:20:46 Speaker 04 It's an emotion we all have. We all can understand. And I think that's why it's like, I want to be the champion. I never rested that. That's never good enough. There has to be something more. And when you have that, it's great. Like anytime you have on the mic, if you ever get lost, you know where you are because I'm supposed to feel jealous of you. Anytime in a match, you know how to act. If, if you are jealous, or if you finally are cresting that hill and now you feel confident, how do you act? How do you move? What do you think the audience will believe? That these, the answers to these questions aren't perfectly placed, but man, they're easier to come by. So instead of being like, we'll do stunt after stunt after stunt, you can build this thing.
2:21:28 Speaker 04 You know, just going back to AJ where he completely in the beginning of those matches outwrestled the hell out of me. And I didn't, I was out of my place. We told the story of I'm gonna be better than you and then you are and my world is crumbling. And then finally, I start doing a little of my stuff.
2:21:45 Bill Simmons? The Rocky, you're the Rocky three.
2:21:46 Speaker 04 It's more like throwing ham bones.
2:21:48 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:21:49 Speaker 04 But then I start hitting him with like my best stuff and he kicks out and I'm like, who the, who is this kid? Why won't he go down?
2:21:55 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:21:56 Speaker 04 And maybe he's right. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my world is crumbling. Like those are just by, just by saying like, I think this is why we're fighting. You can dig into so much. And, and I, I know this. A lot of performers don't do that because I'll always, in a postmortem sense, if I watch matches, I'll watch and be like, okay, you did this and this. Why were you guys fighting? What do you mean? They told, we, we got, we were on the main event. We, we went out there for a match.
2:22:27 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:22:28 Speaker 04 Okay, cool. All right. And I'm, again, I'm not saying that someone who doesn't ask or answer that question cannot be successful.
2:22:39 Speaker 04 But if you know the story, think of sports. Some, some games a lot of people watch.
2:22:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:22:45 Speaker 04 And some games they just don't. There's games on all the time. Games of everything on all the time. But if there's a rivalry, or if there's meaning, like college sports, my.
2:22:55 Bill Simmons? Chiefs, Cowboys, 57 million people on Thanksgiving.
2:22:58 Speaker 04 Man.
2:23:00 Bill Simmons? An important game for both teams, two famous teams, two good quarterbacks.
2:23:04 Speaker 04 And you could, there's a million stories you could tell.
2:23:06 Bill Simmons? But there's, there's an ego piece to this though, which it sounds like you were always thinking about what was good for the business, the storyline. How, how could you think big picture, months and years in advance? And then there were other people who, especially the stories are more famous and like the seventies and eighties of like, I'm at this spot. How do I keep this? How do I, how do I? And that, this was a big topic after Hogan died about, that he, you know, his, the big criticism with him, at least in the eighties and nineties, was that he didn't pay it forward. That he was always trying to hold on to what he had and not.
2:23:41 Speaker 04 So again, I think there's a lot there. And, and I always, I always try to look at life of like, control, the control, well, what can I do? Right? Wrestling was a territorial gangster business. And it was cutthroat. So if you did have something going, you wanted to keep it. It has its origins from carnival performing, which is even more cutthroat. It then gets nationalized. Just because it gets nationalized. Just because, just because we end segregation. You can't change, it takes a long time to change people's mind. Right. So just because it gets nationalized, you don't take the gangster out of the guy.
2:24:23 Speaker 04 You know, like they're, they still have to operate like that. Any story I heard about non meritocracy. I don't like it. I don't like it. And there'll be people to criticize my career or my actions or whatever. They have, they have the right to feel how they want. I believe best person, best idea wins. And I believe sports entertainment is the perfect meritocracy because you know the sound of noise. And promoters, whether they like you or they don't. There are these age old tales. Well, I didn't get the, I didn't get the shock because a promoter didn't like me. Promoter didn't like me.
2:25:07 Speaker 04 Hated me, everybody hated me. But they heard the noise. So they gotta give me at least one more chance. And in that one more chance, you gotta get the noise again. And if you get the noise again, you get another chance. And then you get another chance. And then eventually the promotion, the office, they like you. Because not only with all these chances have you got the noise every time. But in my case, I want to be a reliable employee. I want to be somebody you can invest in and bet on. I want to carry myself well as an advocate for the company I love. I'm, my job is to fake fight. I am doing the thing that I, as a six year old with the paper belt, I'm doing it. I don't want this to go away. Right. And they'll come, they'll come a time when someone does it way better than me that, okay, great.
2:25:52 Speaker 04 No problem. It's, it's your turn. You know, like, um. So again, I guess I enjoy hearing that because you're not wrong. Stamping your territory and, and being the top draw.
2:26:09 Speaker 04 You know, you want to see who somebody really is, give them power. You want to see who somebody really is, take it away. Like, I don't blame anybody for trying to keep where they're at.
2:26:22 Speaker 04 But I've always operated in the way I'm going to keep where I'm at is put us out there, put a mic in my hand, put us out there and let the bell ring. And I'll always get the noise and I'll always be as prepared and ready and like on my game as anyone you put me in there with, no matter what. And when it's time for me to go, I'll go.
2:26:42 Bill Simmons? The power thing's funny, Kev. It's, I was just talking to my old agent, James Baby Doll Dixon about this, who reps all these TV people.
2:26:49 Speaker 04 Talk to me about the nickname.
2:26:50 Bill Simmons? He's great, Baby Doll. Well, he calls everyone Baby Doll, so he just became Baby Doll.
2:26:54 Speaker 04 Right on.
2:26:54 Bill Simmons? Well, we were talking about somebody who, as they ascended, kind of became more of an untrustworthy asshole that we know. And I was like, I just didn't, didn't see it in the early stages. I didn't realize they were going to be like that. And he was like, that's the thing. Everybody's got it inside them, but you don't know what's going to happen until they get some power. When they get power, something shifts.
2:27:20 Speaker 04 I don't know, though. I mean, like.
2:27:22 Bill Simmons? I just thought it was an interesting take. I was like, oh, so.
2:27:26 Speaker 04 I'll give you.
2:27:26 Bill Simmons? Not everybody has it in there, but sometimes if it's in there and then all of a sudden you get opportunity and power.
2:27:32 Speaker 04 Well, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll give you another take. You're right.
2:27:37 Speaker 04 It's not fastest person wins, right?
2:27:40 Speaker 04 It's opinion, if objective, it's floor gymnastics. So it's kind of like if you're cool or not.
2:27:50 Speaker 04 I don't know how many folks came from where they came from to wrestling, like being cool.
2:27:56 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:27:57 Speaker 04 So it might, it might be a little imposter syndrome. It might be a little like lack of self-worth.
2:28:05 Speaker 04 A lot of performers, including myself, want to be out there because out there you're, it feels like home. You're comfortable, you're accepted, but you kind of struggle with who you really are. And if people see your flaws or imperfections, then maybe it's all gone, like.
2:28:22 Speaker 04 It's weird, like I've told the WWE I'll never be able to to thank them, especially the audience, for making me the human being I am today. And it's just time under tension. I think if my career were shorter, maybe my decisions or my perspective in life would be different. But I've had to go through so much, or I've gotten to go through so much.
2:28:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:28:45 Speaker 04 I've I've been told, you're a good guy. You own the sandbox, no problem. I get out there and the noise is opposite of the good guy. I've had that for a long time. So I still have to traverse the obstacle of like, how would a good guy do this? And in doing that, man, humiliated, embarrassed, bullied, picked on, but all part of the act. Because when you're in the arena, it's part of the act. Business is business. You know, people have grabbed the microphone and attacked me personally. They we blur the lines a lot. Gosh, fans in my bald spot, they convinced me to get a hair transplant. I'm so glad, I'm so grateful.
2:29:25 Speaker 04 But like, you're out there and it's very fragile. And I've seen so many gifted people like not make it. Because it's so very fragile. You need to have like so many things in line to have a sustained, good career. And that a lot of that is like having control of your mental health. You know, and I think a lot of the.
2:29:52 Bill Simmons? And having a really thick skin. I think especially you came in the 21st century during the internet era. As wrestling was completely changing into this different, all the message boards, all the cheat sheet.
2:30:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah.
2:30:05 Bill Simmons? Everybody had an opinion, then social media comes with Twitter and Instagram. And stuff becomes meaner and meaner and people become faster to jump on or off somebody. And you're just navigating this the whole time.
2:30:16 Speaker 04 I've also tried to be patient. I think you can just let things play out. You don't always have to answer every question. You can leave people wanting more. You can wait and like.
2:30:31 Speaker 04 Again, I was, I was getting bullied live before message board. So I had a really good, I'd already been through it, you know, but um.
2:30:40 Bill Simmons? I think it's, it's funny, like you come in right around when LeBron comes in, right? LeBron's still playing, you're still wrestling. Stuff that in the 1970s to think that somebody would still be at the top of their game in their early 40s of basketball and their late 40s in wrestling seemed pretty inconceivable. And you both had the ups and downs. He had a bunch of, like, his big thing was the decision when he became basically a heel in real life for, you know, six, seven, eight months. He's getting booed in stadiums, um, just feeling the wrath of the internet and just how people are, which you felt too. And you just kind of, at some point, it almost like it gave LeBron more focus and more inner strength and it, it kind of helped him achieve all the stuff he achieved in the second half
2:31:25 Bill Simmons? of his career, like he wouldn't be denied, you know? So in some ways you could say it was like the best thing that could happen to him, but it's weird to say that.
2:31:32 Speaker 04 Well, it's weird to say because it is what happened.
2:31:35 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:31:37 Speaker 04 In, in my case, I guess I always, I always try to look for a good explanation, right?
2:31:46 Speaker 04 In our business, when you hear negative noise, the knee jerk reaction is to jump on the audience, to turn heel, so to speak, to be a bad guy.
2:31:55 Speaker 04 But that's, that's not what I was told. The, the person who can make those decisions and the creative body making those choices, saying like, we're not doing that.
2:32:06 Bill Simmons? Well, that was Vince.
2:32:08 Speaker 04 And even now, like in some cases, um, let's, let's take the year of retirement. I think a lot of people were wondering what would happen if John Cena turned heel, here I'm talking, if I turned heel. And then when I did. It left a taste in people's mouth that they didn't like it. And like, they wanted other stuff. I wanted a music change. I wanted a uniform change. I wanted him to act like this.
2:32:38 Bill Simmons? Well, we'd been talking about it for 15 years.
2:32:40 Speaker 04 I got.
2:32:40 Bill Simmons? Never thought it was gonna happen.
2:32:42 Speaker 04 I got 11 months to do this. 36 TV appearances. It takes five years to get a guy over. Regardless. If you turn him, it's gonna take a year or two on television for it really to sink in. Especially if you really wanna get into it and then be able to flip and then get a guy to get a nice or get a performer to get a nice flip on the other side when it's time to turn again.
2:33:12 Speaker 04 I don't have the time to tell the right story, but that's besides the point because I'm told we're going with this story. We sure are. I'm gonna do the best I can. And to be able to hear the audience be surprised and then kind of like, this is not what I wanted. It's not that you may or may not have wanted me to turn bad. It's that a lot of people started to realize, like, when I came out into a dome, it was like 36 dates, that's it. It's hard to conceptualize. The first time I put a counter on after Vegas and it went down to like, right down to 24. It was like, whoa.
2:33:53 Speaker 04 And then we started, then the site started to pick up like 15 left, 12 left, 10 left.
2:34:00 Bill Simmons? So you're glad you structured it that way mentally, it sounds like? Like that you had it all for this whole year, like this is gonna play out.
2:34:08 Speaker 04 By design because I knew it had never been done. So how do I continuously send messaging of like, you're never gonna believe it, you're never gonna get it? I have to reinforce the fact that this is it. I still don't believe it. Which is fine, which is great. And hopefully 10 years from now, we can sit here again. Like, oh, he really did it. Are you coming back yet? 2038, I'm like, oh, man. Yeah, yeah. He was playing. So I've been in, I've been in a high level of performing for 23 years.
2:34:38 Speaker 04 I have minimized foolishness in my life. I've been compensated fairly. I have my health also. You have a side gig, you can, well, be the star in movies. I appreciate you saying that. That's also beyond my control. I don't know when the phone rings next. Yeah. But in the height of all that, in doing 220 days a year for, I don't know, 10, 12 years straight.
2:35:04 Speaker 04 The most important thing in my life was WWE. And it's not anymore, and that's okay to say. I'm still obsessed. I'm still passionate about, I'm not obsessed, I was obsessed. Yeah. Very passionate about wrestling on my days off, on my free time, without any compensation. I will go anywhere I can if, if, you know, my partner and I say, hey, you have an off day. What would you like to do? I'd like to go watch younger talent perform and critique them. That's what I enjoy doing on my time off. So I'll always be around it. But man, like, how much more do I want? You know, what, there's always another crowd to perform in front of, but like,
2:35:46 Speaker 04 gosh, maybe if my actions set an example for this class. Hopefully, my actions about political behavior over the course of 23 years have set an example. I, I can tell you, in my perspective alone, I don't know if this is truth, but from my perspective, there is a lot less political activity now, 2025, than when I started in 2002. So it ain't, I can't say it's done, but I can say it's greatly minimized. And if that's because of me, great. If it's not, great, because that's what I wanted in the first place. So maybe as a, the first wrestler who actually retires, I set a precedent for young people to be like, man, I want to, I want to strive to give it like two decades and then go out.
2:36:30 Speaker 04 Like, go out the biggest way I can. It's also a different business model for athletes. Do you keep holding on for one more and then one more and then one more? Or take a look within yourself and be like, man, I can give you guys like the best year I can.
2:36:48 Speaker 04 Can we figure out what that is and figure out what the compensation is for that?
2:36:52 Bill Simmons? We just saw this happen in the NBA, Chris Paul, who decided to have one last year in the Clippers and he hung on too long, you know, it was 41.
2:37:00 Speaker 04 We see it all the time.
2:37:00 Bill Simmons? And then they waived him today as we're talking about this. It's like, oh, it shouldn't have ended like that.
2:37:05 Speaker 04 But, but it should have because that's what you want. Like, I don't, I do not blame any performer for wanting to continue to get out there. It is, it's beautiful, man. I'm gonna, I'm gonna miss it so much. But I've seen it.
2:37:18 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:37:19 Speaker 04 And I don't want to be it. And now with one left, man, if I have to pump myself full of adrenaline to make sure that I, I give all I got, I, I have enough left in the tank for one match.
2:37:30 Bill Simmons? Well, so I was at the, the first Netflix Raw.
2:37:34 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:37:34 Bill Simmons? The night before the fires here, you came out. The two notable things from that was Hogan came out and got really booed. And almost like some, I think some famous wrestling people would have kind of felt the crowded energy and turned it. It was almost like he didn't know what to do. So that was one notable thing. And the other one was when you came out.
2:37:56 Bill Simmons? And it was clear, it was like this purposeful angle that everybody had put a lot of thought into it. Nobody tipped me off on it. But as I was watching it, and I was with my son.
2:38:06 Bill Simmons? And I was like, oh, this is smart. They're gonna, they, I, I see what they're doing. They're making this like the year of Cena. He's gonna make one last run at trying to, trying to win the title and like, I see what they're doing here. And I think it, I think it went better than anyone could have expected. The heel piece was the thing. It seems like you have like small regrets about it.
2:38:27 Speaker 04 Not at all.
2:38:28 Bill Simmons? No?
2:38:28 Speaker 04 No, I
2:38:29 Bill Simmons? You don't think, do you think it went perfectly? Or like, what would you have changed if you did it over again?
2:38:33 Speaker 04 What is perfect? Here's, here's what I do know. Perfect is, is never achievable. I think that's a sucker's chase. When I look back on it, could I have given any more than I did? Not a bit.
2:38:46 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:38:46 Speaker 04 I, I over-prepared. I tried to go to every corner of my emotional well-being.
2:38:55 Speaker 04 And the cool thing is, like, when the audience began to turn. We turned. Yeah. So like, they helped, they helped it out. And that dynamic was a little bit ahead of schedule for, let's say, Cody and I. But it made for a great showing for the summer. So you, you choose, you, uh, make, again anecdotes, make New Day a bunch of heels. They're aspirational pastors, but they're bad guys. The crowd booed them and then they loved them. Nobody wanted to change them good, but hey, it's time to change them good. You know, let's try John like this. I know we have limited time, but let's do something really big.
2:39:38 Speaker 04 Okay, it didn't work, didn't mean I didn't give my all. You know, um, I often talk about a main event on WrestleMania I had with The Miz a long time ago where The Rock came down to interfere. Everyone knew Rocky was coming. Match between Miz and I was lackluster. As far as audience involvement, because they were waiting, obviously, for Dwayne Johnson, who wouldn't want to be just looking towards the entrance? Yeah. Miz got knocked out, won the championship with a concussion. Like, we, we beat the hell out of each other. We couldn't give anymore. But I didn't, looking back, I didn't understand all the things. And maybe we should have done something different because we just got Rock out there earlier. But that piece was also, again, it's WrestleMania, I think we had to blow it off.
2:40:22 Speaker 04 That piece was a building block for a year later in Miami. Because the next day on TV, we challenged each other to the Miami WrestleMania. So it was like leveraging WrestleMania for another WrestleMania. I just wasn't used to it. I didn't get the perspective. And it worked. It ended up being one of the most successful events in company history. So when you say like, oh, man, you seem a little bit like this. I don't. It happened, it was great, and it helped. It, like, it paid off. And this whole year, I think, has been special in that regard.
2:40:55 Speaker 04 People have bought in and I'm so glad because I, after this, I don't have another chance. If they didn't buy in, I would just go.
2:41:02 Bill Simmons? You faking injury in July.
2:41:04 Speaker 04 No, no, I would, I would do the rest of my dates and.
2:41:07 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:41:08 Speaker 04 Then, then I could look back and be like, man, I held them on too long. But in these shows, like it's now become, you want to be on these shows. We have tons of people watching. We have sold out arenas and stadiums. It's a chance for you to show your business.
2:41:22 Bill Simmons? Well, you made one mistake.
2:41:24 Speaker 04 Please, I'm, I'm open to criticism.
2:41:27 Bill Simmons? Why wasn't the last match in Boston?
2:41:30 Speaker 04 That, again, that's way beyond my control. I'm not a, I don't book the live event calendar.
2:41:35 Bill Simmons? Well, my guess is that.
2:41:36 Speaker 04 If it was up to me, every match would be in Tampa.
2:41:39 Bill Simmons? But that, my guess is.
2:41:41 Speaker 04 Like that's.
2:41:41 Bill Simmons? They knew the Boston.
2:41:42 Speaker 04 The mistake is I didn't have 36 matches in Tampa.
2:41:45 Bill Simmons? I know, but you're like the Boston home team, though.
2:41:47 Speaker 04 Trust me, it was great to be able to go back there one last time.
2:41:50 Bill Simmons? My guess is they thought that could be its own thing and your last match could be its own thing. And they didn't need to combine those two things.
2:41:56 Speaker 04 You never know. I don't know if the Garden was available.
2:41:59 Bill Simmons? Possible.
2:41:59 Speaker 04 So you never know. Like, that's a thing of like, man, it would be perfect if, perfect for you. Like, you don't, you don't know the routing, you don't know live event, live event hurdles that they have to go through.
2:42:11 Bill Simmons? It was an emotional event.
2:42:12 Speaker 04 It was great.
2:42:13 Bill Simmons? The last Boston match.
2:42:14 Speaker 04 And, and it was like the last, the last, then you can get a bunch of last ups. The last SmackDown in Chicago where I started.
2:42:20 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:42:21 Speaker 04 The last time in TD, the last time in NSG, my last Raw, my last premium live event or pay-per-view in San Diego. And then, of course, the last match and.
2:42:34 Speaker 04 In trying to create the atmosphere for the last match, folks in creative were like, hey, we want to do like this tribute thing. And I, I never, I never booked myself.
2:42:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:42:45 Speaker 04 But I called Triple H and I said, I have an idea. You'll know how to do this because I don't know how to write television. But I think if we do a tribute show, one of two things are going to happen. It's either going to be too much or too little, which means it's not going to be good. Why don't we take Saturday night's main event? Everyone knows it's John Cena's last match. The video packages, you want to trickle in there throughout the night? No problem. Then we go to the match, have the match, that's the night. But beforehand, on a night, I know people are going to be tuning in. We're going to have a sold out. It's going to be a definitely an item, a ticket you want to have in your hand. And that last piece of relevant energy that I can get an audience member to tune into.
2:43:29 Speaker 04 Show the future of your business. Have top name WWE superstars, CM Punk, Charlotte Flair. Who, you put it together how you want. Have them have non-canon exhibition matches with the future of the business. Bring kids up from NXT. Get them in a building with real noise, with real energy. Let them get under the bright lights. Maybe, just maybe, like, I want to be here. You know what I'm saying? And they get to wrestle people with experience and wisdom. And in non-canon, non-exhibition matches, where nothing's on the line. It's just a chance to see, it's a chance to hear the music of your favorite superstars against someone you have no idea.
2:44:13 Speaker 04 And he said, that's a, that's a great idea. And they're going to do it. I have no clue what the plan is, but I know it's, I, that's how I want to go out.
2:44:22 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:44:23 Speaker 04 I want to, I want the people who are tuning in for me to be like, yeah, but you see that other kid? I'm watching next Monday because he's awesome. Or she's awesome. You know, like, what a better way to tip the cap and try to, try to keep, keep the thing going, you know?
2:44:43 Bill Simmons? What would you tell 2003 John Cena? If you could give him, go on a time machine, give him like two tips of advice, what would it be?
2:44:52 Speaker 04 There's going to be this thing called Bitcoin that the Winklevosses are going to debut in 2012. I'd give him a sports almanac. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No.
2:45:03 Speaker 04 I don't, I don't, it's weird. I get asked that question a lot. I don't, I can't.
2:45:07 Bill Simmons? You get asked that question a lot?
2:45:09 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:45:09 Bill Simmons? Oh, man, now I feel like a jerk.
2:45:11 Speaker 04 You want to ask another question?
2:45:14 Bill Simmons? Well, give me one thing you would have told yourself.
2:45:15 Speaker 04 I don't know if that works. Like, I don't know, first of all, to see your generational self is a weird paradox and who knows? But like, um, to tip, to take someone off about like, even if it's like, hey, man, just keep it up. It's going to be crazy. What the fuck does that mean?
2:45:36 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:45:36 Speaker 04 What does it mean? Am I going to go crazy? Like, what's, what's, I just, I, things have happened the way they've happened. And that's how they needed to happen.
2:45:46 Bill Simmons? I'm going to use my new John Cena mentality to just look forward and not, not think about how I asked you a question that a lot of people have asked you. I'm going to try to spin it into a positive and just ask another question.
2:45:57 Speaker 04 Yeah, go for it.
2:45:58 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:45:59 Speaker 04 You got one?
2:45:59 Bill Simmons? I thought that was a really good one. Who, who was your biggest mentor when you were coming up? Like, looking back into that oh, three, oh, four, oh, five, did you have anybody that became like a Mr. Miyagi?
2:46:09 Speaker 04 No, Vince, without a doubt.
2:46:11 Bill Simmons? Interesting. Well, let's talk about that because he was on the docket. As you know, I did the documentary.
2:46:15 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:46:16 Bill Simmons? That, uh, that you were interviewed for.
2:46:18 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:46:18 Bill Simmons? And we had a whole segment about the ruthless aggression. Like, that was kind of your big moment. You were like a rational confidence young guy, John Cena, like, fuck it, I'll do it. I'm in there.
2:46:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:46:29 Bill Simmons? But what, so how was Vince at that point? When he took you under your wing, like, what'd you learn? How did he help you?
2:46:36 Speaker 04 So, he was just really kind with his time. He, he would explain things. Here is a person making a lot of, if not all, the choices.
2:46:49 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:46:50 Speaker 04 I, I.
2:46:53 Speaker 04 I'm always in search for a good explanation. And he would always give one. And in giving the good explanation, you would get a nugget. And because Vince had such fluency in every avenue of the business. A lot of performers are worried about the stunts. I think one of the benefits of doing 220 shows a year is pace. And if you obsess over the the physical aspect of the business, you might get exhausted. You might burn it. I love the technical aspects. But then I also became obsessed with the theatrical aspect. And then I also came up, became obsessed, especially when,
2:47:38 Speaker 04 before I won my first championship on the way to getting relevance and the way of shifting from the obscure Saturday night program to SmackDown. I became interested in the business and not my business. Like, how can I take from this place to make as much as I can? The business. How do, how do we get more people in the arena? And the, the only person it seemed like that had a good explanation for a lot of those questions was Vince. And that allowed, allowed just a wealth of information to be dumped on, on me. I, I had full faith and trust in him. I think he had full faith and trust in me. I-
2:48:21 Bill Simmons? He has had a really good track record of, I think this person can carry us for a little while. And he was usually right.
2:48:28 Speaker 04 Um, he wasn't afraid to try, which is another thing I learned from him. Like, do not be afraid to swing big and do not be afraid to fail. Be accountable for your-
2:48:39 Bill Simmons? I'm glad you said that. That's one of the, one biggest things I've learned in life. I think people are too afraid to fail.
2:48:45 Speaker 04 It sucks. Failure sucks, man.
2:48:47 Bill Simmons? Get back up.
2:48:48 Speaker 04 I know, I understand. But it's like, it's not, it's uncomfortable.
2:48:53 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:48:53 Speaker 04 And, and failing is bad. Taking accountability for failure, that's even a heavier weight. But, gosh, man, I just-
2:49:02 Bill Simmons? What was your biggest failure? Like, when you look back, like, the, the one where you were like-
2:49:07 Speaker 04 Blowing the completely disintegrating ruthless aggression. And it almost got me fired.
2:49:14 Speaker 04 So here I am, a young whippersnapper, debuting in Chicago because the Undertaker's sick. I get to challenge Kurt Angle to a match on SmackDown in front of a sold out house at the formerly known as Rosemont Horizon. Yeah. The Olympic gold medalist says, what makes you think you can stand out here with anybody else? What do you have that I don't? Ruthless aggression. I slapped him in the face. That was great. That's aggressive. Yeah. And then the match we went on to have is pretty ruthless. But then like, he won, but with like a roll up pinfall. And then the aggressive ruthless young kid goes like, man, you only got me by that much. And then the next thing they did was like a backstage taping with the Undertaker, where
2:49:56 Speaker 04 the ruthless aggressive kid is so starry eyed that the Undertaker has given him advice and like, hey, you did a great job. Shakes the Undertaker's hand. That is neither ruthless nor aggressive. So this is what I mean by like being ready for opportunity. That gimmick, those two words, that personality, I could either lean into being aggressive and ruthless. And we all know what those things are. We all have an idea in our head of what is ruthless and what is aggression. Or I could do a 180 and be like the most passive aggressive. I was neither. You were in no man's land. I was neither. And I didn't have the technical ability of my peers.
2:50:39 Speaker 04 And they gave me this beautiful moment on a silver platter. No one told me it was an attitude. No one told me, but I didn't take advantage of it. That was, that was my biggest failure because a year later, they're like, hey, we're gonna let you go. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. I got it. Like I, I could see the cheers against Kurt Angle, then a little bit with Chris Jericho, and then, then I'm turning heel on Billy Kidman on Saturday Night Velocity and nobody cares, you know, like.
2:51:10 Speaker 04 I blew it. I blew it and was lucky enough to get a second chance.
2:51:14 Bill Simmons? Well, you had, we talked about in the documentary, though, you're rapping on the bus.
2:51:19 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:51:19 Bill Simmons? And Stephanie hears it and then all of a sudden you're, that was it. But The Rock had a very similar, kind of, there are always these moments where it's going one way and one little, small thing happens and it flips.
2:51:31 Speaker 04 Yeah, and in, in Rock's case, he was like, man, just,
2:51:36 Speaker 04 you're going to put me with these folks, just give me the mic.
2:51:38 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:51:39 Speaker 04 And in my case, I got lucky. Somebody heard me on the mic and was like, would you be okay doing that on TV? Hmm, let me weigh my options. You're going to fire me or do this on TV? Looks like I'm your rapping kid from West Newbury. You know, like this just, yeah, sure, great, I'll do it. But I think the cool thing was I, I essentially failed fast. You know, and I was held accountable for my failures. Kid, obviously this isn't working. You know, yes, you're correct. All right. You know, like that's, I get it. And it made me like, all right, I'm going in. And I just had a conversation with a young talent the other day who is trying to find themselves.
2:52:24 Speaker 04 And they, they expressed like, oh, man, I think I have my why down to this. I said, okay, but what is, what does that mean? Like, I went from wearing boots and tights and carrying my laptop to playing roller coaster tycoon to like, you're the rap guy. Fine, I'm the rap guy. I'm going to buy my gear in the hood. I'm going to get faded up at the barber shop. I'm going to tell everybody I'm throwing this jersey out tonight. I'm going to wear diamonds and then switch the diamond for a steel chain. I'm going to wear five fingered rings. I'm going to wrestle in sneakers. I'm going to wrestle in jorts. I'm going to wrestle in yellow corduroy and blue sheepskin suits. I'm not going to look like everybody else. I'm going to make my own music.
2:53:08 Speaker 04 I'm going to freestyle everyone in the parking lot so they know it's not rigged and no one's writing my stuff. I'm going to come out with my own album. We're going to make music videos. I'm going to do concerts. I'm going to work clubs in between SmackDown and Raw and pay-per-views. Like, I was, it was it. It was me.
2:53:25 Bill Simmons? You went for it.
2:53:26 Speaker 04 Wholeheartedly.
2:53:28 Bill Simmons? And three years later, I'm in a theater with Adam Corolla watching you in the Marine.
2:53:32 Speaker 04 Yeah, man, I feel like I still owe you money for that one.
2:53:34 Bill Simmons? No, we enjoyed it.
2:53:38 Bill Simmons? What?
2:53:38 Speaker 04 Uh, that's, that's, maybe that's also, uh, certainly a fail. I mean, I got run out of the movie business, so that's, that's a big failure, too.
2:53:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah, to some, for some people.
2:53:47 Speaker 04 You'll never work in this town again, kid.
2:53:49 Bill Simmons? I kind of enjoyed those action movies. What do you think?
2:53:51 Speaker 04 You were the one.
2:53:52 Bill Simmons? Well, what do you think was your, your career year? What do you think was your best year? Cause I felt like as a writer, I have like three years in my head where I was like, I was really had it going that year. I really feel good about how that year went, the stuff I did, and I have fond memories of it. Do you have a year like that?
2:54:08 Speaker 04 Gosh, I like this one.
2:54:11 Bill Simmons? Twenty-five?
2:54:12 Speaker 04 I, I like this one.
2:54:13 Bill Simmons? Really?
2:54:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah. I, I mean.
2:54:17 Bill Simmons? Well, certainly probably the least taxing physically, cause you.
2:54:19 Speaker 04 Not true.
2:54:20 Bill Simmons? Thirty-six matches?
2:54:21 Speaker 04 Yeah, thirty-six matches.
2:54:22 Bill Simmons? Two-twenty?
2:54:24 Speaker 04 It's weird, like, if you talk to a performer who's done that schedule, you don't have time to do anything else. It's, it's kind of like being in season. And, but like the preseason's so tough for NFL.
2:54:36 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:54:36 Speaker 04 The helmet feels heavy and like the first few hits hurt, but then when you get in it, it's like, yeah, we got another game. Don't worry about it. We got another game. We got another game. You get that callus and your timing gets great and it's like,
2:54:50 Speaker 04 you get in a zone, you get in a flow state. It's really tough to get in the flow state with like thirty-six.
2:54:56 Bill Simmons? Sounds like, almost like playing golf, like you're better off playing golf five times a week than one.
2:55:01 Speaker 04 Yeah, and then maybe like once a month.
2:55:04 Bill Simmons? Right.
2:55:05 Speaker 04 Where, where I'm gonna give you five minutes to hit a bucket of balls before you go out there. Oh, sorry, you have three minutes to hit a bucket of balls before you go out there.
2:55:12 Bill Simmons? So give me your second best year.
2:55:14 Speaker 04 I don't know, man.
2:55:16 Bill Simmons? That had to be one year where you look back, you're like, ah, man, we were humming that year.
2:55:19 Speaker 04 So I think, I think the, the year in Miami that culminated at WrestleMania with, with The Rock. I thought that that was a pretty, and the, the reason I choose the two things,
2:55:32 Speaker 04 is because a year-long build in two thousand and eleven, or whatever it was, in WWE is unheard of.
2:55:41 Speaker 04 Is this possible? And it worked. A wrestling retirement is unheard of. Is this possible? And skeptics will be skeptics, but with one left, December thirteenth is it? I can be like, it worked. Was everyone critically happy? They're gonna weigh in on everything. You'll always be criticized. You'll always have your opinion of like, I would love to this. They booked it wrong. He did this wrong. I know a lot of folks showed up. And I know TKO is doing well. And I know our fan base is still interested. The fact that we were able to do a tournament to get to the last person. So now the shows I'm not even on.
2:56:22 Bill Simmons? Who's it Gunther and LA Nider left?
2:56:24 Speaker 04 Yeah. And the shows that I'm not even on have gravity and like, oh, man, I want to kind of see what goes on. What a, what a cool idea of like, well, John isn't going to be there. But the presence and the, the idea of this. And then of course, it leans into like my core value of meritocracy.
2:56:39 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:56:39 Speaker 04 And same, same, same thing with on the 13th. Man, we'll give you a chance. See what you can do. Please, I'm, I'm begging any young performer that gets out there. Steal the show. I would love them to just talk about you and not me. That means I have done my job.
2:56:54 Bill Simmons? You did the performer thing again.
2:56:55 Speaker 04 I want to send the message to who was ever on the thing.
2:56:57 Bill Simmons? That was great.
2:56:58 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:56:59 Bill Simmons? Gunther has to be in top five this century of guys that I'm sure is a great wrestler. But the next day, you're in the shower, just like, fuck. I mean, those chest slaps.
2:57:10 Speaker 04 You took me to a weird place. I don't know.
2:57:11 Bill Simmons? No, you're just like, the chest slap. I just can't imagine the next day. Those seem like they hurt. I would say the Lesnar suplexes would be the number one. The, the Gunther chest slaps. I don't know what else is in the pantheon for you for like, the next day, you're just like, ah, I'm feeling it.
2:57:32 Speaker 04 I think for me, it's performers who lean on, like, really, like, beating the hell out of, out of you. There is a certain magic to what we do.
2:57:46 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:57:46 Speaker 04 And.
2:57:47 Bill Simmons? So you're talking like the hard clothesline slash just?
2:57:50 Speaker 04 Um, I would, I would borderline into say like, like, unsafe striking, unsafe maneuvers. Like where, I don't know, the, the feeling that the, the realism trumps the ability to, like, what should be first and foremost is we're going to give the best we can and we're going to walk out of there.
2:58:09 Bill Simmons? And nobody gets hurt.
2:58:11 Speaker 04 And, and there is a certain magic to our business. And there are certain performers, Brock is one, where his stuff is physical. But he's one of the smoothest, like. He's a really great performer. Randy Orton is another one. It's like, great performer. And his stuff looks great. And his timing is beautiful.
2:58:32 Speaker 04 Seth Rollins is another one. CM Punk is another one. The list of folks who understand the magic.
2:58:37 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
2:58:38 Speaker 04 And again, I don't fault anyone for their style. It's their lane to choose.
2:58:45 Speaker 04 But I do know, for me personally speaking, my math would be a whole lot less if every night I I beat the tar out of my opponent and I expected them to beat the tar out of me. You know, you just, you ride down that injury avenue a lot more frequent than you would if you understood the magic of our business.
2:59:04 Bill Simmons? Nick Khan wanted your Mount Rushmore. So this isn't my question.
2:59:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, sure, sure. Mount Rushmore is, what is it?
2:59:10 Bill Simmons? He wanted your four. He said you would actually give it to us. No, not presidents.
2:59:14 Speaker 04 Washington and Lincoln.
2:59:15 Bill Simmons? Give us.
2:59:15 Speaker 04 Is that Mount Rushmore?
2:59:16 Bill Simmons? No. You gotta give us the four.
2:59:18 Speaker 04 Is that Mount Rushmore?
2:59:20 Bill Simmons? Wrestling Mount Rushmore.
2:59:21 Speaker 04 You're saying that's not Mount Rushmore?
2:59:23 Bill Simmons? We need a wrestling Mount Rushmore from you.
2:59:25 Speaker 04 That's mine. That's what I'm doing.
2:59:27 Bill Simmons? Come on.
2:59:27 Speaker 04 Lincoln wrestled a bear.
2:59:28 Bill Simmons? You can either give me.
2:59:29 Speaker 04 Washington wrestled a British.
2:59:30 Bill Simmons? The four best you ever saw? Or the four best you ever wrestled? No, you gotta do it. He demanded.
2:59:37 Speaker 04 You know.
2:59:37 Bill Simmons? He's in control of this December 13th show. You gotta do right by him.
2:59:41 Speaker 04 I would like to think that the relationship I have with Nick Khan, he does right by me and I do right by him.
2:59:46 Bill Simmons? That's fair. That's fair.
2:59:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:59:47 Bill Simmons? So Rushmore is off?
2:59:49 Speaker 04 I gave you. I gave you Mount Rushmore.
2:59:51 Bill Simmons? Can you give me?
2:59:52 Speaker 04 Can you ask another question?
2:59:53 Bill Simmons? Can you give me the three?
2:59:57 Bill Simmons? So you don't want to do three best wrestlers you ever wrestled against?
3:00:00 Speaker 04 That's a great question.
3:00:01 Bill Simmons? That's basically Rushmore.
3:00:02 Speaker 04 No, it's not.
3:00:03 Bill Simmons? Okay.
3:00:04 Speaker 04 You talked about Mount Rushmore. I gave you Mount Rushmore. What is your real question? What do you want?
3:00:08 Bill Simmons? Three best.
3:00:09 Speaker 04 The three best.
3:00:10 Bill Simmons? So you, three best people you ever wrestled?
3:00:13 Speaker 04 The three best people I ever wrestled.
3:00:15 Bill Simmons? Where you were like marveling at how good they were.
3:00:17 Speaker 04 Seth Rollins.
3:00:20 Bill Simmons? Shawn Michaels, Seth Rollins.
3:00:22 Speaker 04 Shawn Michaels, Seth Rollins.
3:00:26 Speaker 04 And it is very tough to narrow down to a third. I've had incredible chemistry with people.
3:00:36 Speaker 04 It's tough.
3:00:37 Bill Simmons? Well, so let's concentrate on those two because Michaels is usually somebody's answer for this question, right? So what, what was it about him that was just different than all these other guys?
3:00:48 Speaker 04 He
3:00:52 Speaker 04 can make this a champion.
3:00:57 Speaker 04 He would look at that and be like, okay, need to bump around for that book. Then I'm going to superkick the book and then beautifully fall on top of it at the same time. He just, um, his, his performance and, and Seth is of the same vein. His performance is like Randy falls into this category. But then again, there's like guys who have had crazy chemistry with AJ Styles, CM Punk, Kevin Owens, Dwayne, Edge.
3:01:27 Bill Simmons? And now you're just listing guys.
3:01:29 Speaker 04 But like I've had.
3:01:29 Bill Simmons? It was interesting though.
3:01:30 Speaker 04 Been around for 23 years. I think those are the two.
3:01:33 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:01:34 Speaker 04 Because of their, like, they can just work with anyone, anyone. And I've been lucky enough that like I was anyone a few nights, you know?
3:01:47 Bill Simmons? Who was the one that jumped the highest from where they started? Where years later you're like, wow, you really, you really did it.
3:01:57 Speaker 04 Cody, Cody Rhodes.
3:01:58 Bill Simmons? Cody, okay, explain that one.
3:02:01 Speaker 04 He asked for his release from the company and left.
3:02:04 Bill Simmons? Did you feel like he was a good wrestler when he left?
3:02:07 Speaker 04 I felt like he had, man, the first time I heard that kid speak was at the Hall of Fame in Chicago when him and his brother inducted his dad and I'm like front row going, I'm out of a job, like, or Los Angeles, it was like wherever he, like this kid is coming for me. I better go back and practice. And, you know, um, generational talents of big shoes to fill. And, uh, gosh, he, he did the best he could with what he had, but he realized that, you know, start up here and then you watch the stock go down. And then essentially the company dissolves of like, I gotta go. And then like, my man, this, what is going on with this guy? And back he comes and he's at a. He's our guy now. I don't think there's any arc better than that.
3:02:51 Speaker 04 Like to be kicked out or to be out of the club. And then not only earn your way back in, but earn your way back in and prove that you can compete and perform every day at the the top level, not a top level, like the top level.
3:03:07 Bill Simmons? And it seems like he learned some stuff from you that he talks about. Like, I think you were an important person for him.
3:03:13 Speaker 04 Man, whatever, whatever anyone has between their two ears is just a matter of like your application of it. You know, if if that's the case, I'm grateful for the moments I've shared with Cody. I'm grateful for the moments I still share and will share. But he's he's doing it. And I think that's important, like he's doing it regardless of where he got it from. Like I said, I got I got tons of information from my mentor. I think the best way to honor that information and honor that wisdom is to put rubber to road and make something happen.
3:03:46 Bill Simmons? Undertaker.
3:03:48 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:03:48 Bill Simmons? Was he that much of a leader behind the scenes?
3:03:51 Speaker 04 Uh, yes.
3:03:52 Bill Simmons? Was he the number one?
3:03:57 Speaker 04 The most respected personality. And.
3:04:02 Bill Simmons? You could even feel that in oh, three, as you're coming up, you're like, oh, that guy, don't fuck with him.
3:04:08 Speaker 04 Until about like recently. And even still, I think that his name still carries weight. I don't know because I'm not a new performer. I know what I know.
3:04:17 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:04:19 Speaker 04 But in looking at, like, I'm so grateful to have experienced phases of the business.
3:04:27 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:04:28 Speaker 04 And I'm so happy for where it is now. The locker room essentially.
3:04:38 Speaker 04 Doesn't need a spokesperson because all of our people are professionals. You know, it's not like pirates or herding cats anymore. Or like, we don't need an internal police force because we're all professionals. But that being said, a lot of the fraternity, a lot of the bonds, which led to great programming. Yeah. That stuff has dissolved. So it's weird. You want to look back and romanticize how things were. But how things were was like, man, you better get a $200 advance on tonight's show because you're not going to get paid. Right. So that's just how they were.
3:05:19 Speaker 04 And I had fun and great times under, under being welcomed into that fraternal business. And he was literally, he was very instrumental in that. I had my first drink with the Undertaker.
3:05:33 Speaker 04 What do you mean, like first drink ever? Oh, yeah. I was 26. That was your first drink? And he was like, I sat down, I'm like, hey, he's like, oh, like, hey, I don't, oh.
3:05:46 Speaker 04 You know what? I'm going to go for it. Yeah. Because I have this wise figure who has, who is very stoic, doesn't say a lot.
3:05:57 Speaker 04 Welcome me in, like, that is, okay, I understand why I don't do this.
3:06:03 Speaker 04 But I also understand that I want to do this.
3:06:08 Speaker 04 I'm okay. I'm going to give this a try. And I'm so glad I did. Because in that one conversation, I still, I see us at that bar.
3:06:20 Speaker 04 Some of the lessons he gave still stick with me. Yeah.
3:06:27 Speaker 04 The two things I vividly remember from that conversation, always take care of your crew.
3:06:33 Speaker 04 He never let any of the boys pay. Never say goodbye. I got so hammered. When I was like, man, when is it time to go? It's like go whenever you want, just don't ever say goodbye.
3:06:45 Bill Simmons? And I was. Don't ever say goodbye. That's such good advice.
3:06:48 Speaker 04 And I was so happy.
3:06:49 Bill Simmons? The Undertaker is an Irish goodbye guy?
3:06:53 Speaker 04 I was, I guess so, but that was, that was.
3:06:56 Bill Simmons? Maybe he's Irish.
3:06:57 Speaker 04 That was a tip he bestowed on me.
3:06:59 Bill Simmons? It's a good one.
3:07:00 Speaker 04 I was so out of place. I turned to him, I was like, man, thanks so much. And then so many people that I'd never talked to, I said, I said goodbye to everybody.
3:07:09 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:07:10 Speaker 04 But then it just put me right back in the seat and I stayed there a little bit longer. But I, I really thought it was important to know that like, he was like, always take care of your crew.
3:07:18 Bill Simmons? Take care of your crew, Irish goodbye.
3:07:21 Speaker 04 When it's time to go, it's time to go. So when it's time to go, it's time to go. It's. We got one left, you know, it's time to go. So, but I, he's just, he was tremendously respected. And I think because of that, he was, he certainly had a great relationship with Vince and could act as a conduit. Any, anyone who can bridge that gap, and that's another thing, it's not, there's no gap anymore.
3:07:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:07:45 Speaker 04 There's no like office and the boys. It's like everybody's in it together. Everyone's accessible. You can go up to Paul, it's not like Vince wasn't accessible, but Vince also did everything. So now like Vince's brain is split in a bunch of different places. There's Paul, there's Nick, there's Chris Lethal, there's Matt Altman, there's anybody in talent relations. There's like, you can get answers through all these folks. Justin Scalise with live events, Derek Casman with merch and Ethan with Fanatics. Like, I can get a good explanation without spending or asking the man to spend minutes he don't have. You know, so it's not, it's, it's very little. It's us versus them. It's, it's all we, you know, it's like, I like it like that.
3:08:30 Speaker 04 I like it like that because I was never a big us versus them guy.
3:08:33 Bill Simmons? Did you ever think that WWE could survive and thrive without Vince? After seeing like, like you just mentioned, all the things that he did.
3:08:40 Speaker 04 So of all the things he did and of all the things he taught me, one of, one piece that was very important is that, uh, no one is irreplaceable.
3:08:52 Speaker 04 And that's the truth. The one thing that needs to stand firm is the consumer's belief in what we do. And Vince has so much knowledge. I think what's happened is unfortunate because you have this individual with so much depth of field who can still offer things. And we no longer can pull from that well. But it doesn't mean we don't have able bodied folks who can't put on creative programming. So.
3:09:25 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:09:27 Speaker 04 I never wanted Vince to go because I love him and I know how much he loves the business. But he taught me like, we're all gonna go. All of us. And he taught me that not only through saying, through his actions. I was there the day he fired Stone Cold. You missed a date. Gotta go. Biggest attraction. I gotta, I gotta let people know this isn't okay. So things happen. We gotta let people know this isn't okay. It's time for you to go. Everybody goes, man. Everybody goes. So, so because of his words, yeah. Yeah.
3:10:07 Bill Simmons? So you're either gonna be wrestling Gunther.
3:10:10 Speaker 04 Or LA Knight.
3:10:11 Bill Simmons? Or LA Knight.
3:10:12 Speaker 04 Yeah. That's a great topic, Shuf. Look at you. Clutch. Look at that. Right there. You say, hey, yeah, you got it. You got it.
3:10:19 Bill Simmons? I've had you for a long period of time and now it's.
3:10:21 Speaker 04 My God, it's tomorrow.
3:10:23 Bill Simmons? I know. Been here a while. And then that's gonna be it. And you're gonna actually retire.
3:10:29 Speaker 04 Yes.
3:10:30 Bill Simmons? And you have little brother coming out, which I'm supposed to promote because Dave Burnett is my friend and he's one of the producers.
3:10:36 Speaker 04 I don't know when.
3:10:36 Bill Simmons? He wanted to mention that. Whenever it comes out.
3:10:38 Speaker 04 Fun comedy, me and Eric Andre.
3:10:39 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's coming out like next year at something.
3:10:40 Speaker 04 Yeah. You'll, you'll see me at WWE events. I'm gonna be involved as long as they will have me until I am need to, until I need to be replaced. But I will look like this.
3:10:51 Bill Simmons? So you can be involved as like a personality slash.
3:10:55 Speaker 04 I will make sure you get to your seat.
3:10:56 Bill Simmons? Facilitator.
3:10:57 Speaker 04 And I will go up and.
3:10:59 Bill Simmons? Announcer?
3:11:00 Speaker 04 I don't.
3:11:01 Bill Simmons? Nah, you don't really like announcing.
3:11:02 Speaker 04 No, I would love to do it. I think the announcing crew we have now, I'm such a big fan of Stu Bennett and Wade Barrett. I think he's. He is carving out an excellent legacy for himself. I know Michael Cole's getting a little long in the tooth. He's probably wanting to move on. I would love to sit at the table. I think we have, and I love listening to Big E call stuff.
3:11:21 Bill Simmons? This would be a good angle for you where you're jealous of Michael Cole. This whole time you got to sit here as we all took these bumps. I knew I was better than you this whole time.
3:11:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:11:30 Bill Simmons? Listening to you announce.
3:11:31 Speaker 04 I think I'm out. You reel me back in. I, you have to have the time to regularly commit to be an announcer.
3:11:38 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:11:39 Speaker 04 Like, I know, I know Pat McAfee struggled with that. He split himself in a bunch of different directions. And gosh, I don't, I don't blame anybody for going until you can't go.
3:11:47 Bill Simmons? Right.
3:11:47 Speaker 04 But like, he didn't, he didn't have it in the tank. Like, he can't be, he can't be everywhere at once. So.
3:11:52 Bill Simmons? Yeah, he's, I, I actually thought he was doing a good job as the.
3:11:56 Speaker 04 He was, but like.
3:11:57 Bill Simmons? An announcer, but at some point you can, you can have just too many jobs in too many places.
3:12:01 Speaker 04 So that was a, you were like, hey, man, 36 dates must have been easy this year. I did too many jobs.
3:12:07 Speaker 04 The original.
3:12:07 Bill Simmons? Yeah, because you're doing a movie as you're also doing this.
3:12:10 Speaker 04 I was in Budapest, going from like, flying from Budapest, like do all night on set in Budapest. Fly to Indy, do Indy, fly back, land, drop my stuff off, go film. And like doing that until post WrestleMania, like back and forth to Morocco and Budapest and all these crazy places that weren't easy commutes.
3:12:30 Speaker 04 And it's just, you think you can do it. He's like, ah, sleep, I'll sleep on the plane or whatever. You don't, it doesn't happen. And then you get upside down and you're like super fatigued, but like, I, I threaded the needle just enough. The, uh, the plan originally was to do like a full year. This is, this goes to show my ignorance of the business.
3:12:48 Speaker 04 I wanted to do 220 dates. Just take a year off of everything, hop on a bus, do a full WWE calendar and like totally say goodbye. Thank goodness that the business isn't like that anymore. Cause I would be, if you took a gingerbread man, just broke him, I'd be done. They only needed me for 36.
3:13:10 Bill Simmons? Did they, did you ever ask your half brother Dom Toretto for any advice or no?
3:13:14 Speaker 04 I ask Ben for advice all the time.
3:13:16 Bill Simmons? You do?
3:13:17 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:13:17 Bill Simmons? And you stayed in touch with Ben?
3:13:20 Speaker 04 We text back and forth all the time.
3:13:21 Bill Simmons? Really?
3:13:21 Speaker 04 He's like, he's a really good dude, man. And like, he's, um, there's another guy who's like.
3:13:28 Speaker 04 He keeps himself, but if you know him, he's like a really wise, genuine dude.
3:13:33 Bill Simmons? I love how loyal he is to Paul Walker.
3:13:36 Speaker 04 Man, I.
3:13:36 Bill Simmons? Like, he's, he keeps the memory alive in all these different ways and it's, it always seems completely authentic to me. He just like really loved the guy and he always wants to like bring him up.
3:13:45 Speaker 04 I just.
3:13:45 Bill Simmons? In a good way.
3:13:46 Speaker 04 I also know he cares about his body of work and he cares about the people he works with.
3:13:51 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:13:51 Speaker 04 And that's also cool, you know, um, nah, a cool guy. Shout out to Vin, I definitely keep in touch with him.
3:13:57 Bill Simmons? I mean, it's funny because it's not like you weren't famous, but that franchise is basically like you're entering the Marvel Universe when you're in a Fast movie.
3:14:04 Speaker 04 And I get to be.
3:14:05 Bill Simmons? It's.
3:14:05 Speaker 04 A Toretto?
3:14:06 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:14:07 Speaker 04 I get to be Jacob Toretto when they're like.
3:14:08 Bill Simmons? I had some notes about whether the, the.
3:14:11 Speaker 04 Bring it all on.
3:14:12 Bill Simmons? I don't know, their relations, but I, I just.
3:14:14 Speaker 04 It's fun.
3:14:14 Bill Simmons? Didn't really seem like you, you guys had a lot in common genetically.
3:14:17 Speaker 04 I got to wear the cross and as they would say, it's in the books.
3:14:21 Bill Simmons? Do you have to do any fake, fake, uh, driving preparation? And you sort of, were they teaching you how to?
3:14:28 Speaker 04 To, to green screen drive?
3:14:29 Bill Simmons? Cause you're doing, you're, you're, they have car full of cameras, right? And you gotta, it just seems like it's this weird, weirdly hard acting that you wouldn't think would be hard.
3:14:40 Speaker 04 So.
3:14:40 Bill Simmons? Cause you gotta pretend like things are coming, this is happening, guys crossing.
3:14:47 Speaker 04 Two things about me, one, I love to drive and two, I haven't never, thank goodness, shut off my imagination.
3:14:55 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:14:55 Speaker 04 So like doing Bumblebee, working with Bumblebee was a, a long stick with a tennis ball. Peacemaker, Eagly was a gray bowling pin. Uh, Fast, a lot of times you're driving in green screen.
3:15:07 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:15:08 Speaker 04 I just.
3:15:09 Bill Simmons? Just.
3:15:09 Speaker 04 Just a trip to imagination.
3:15:10 Bill Simmons? Just throw yourself into it.
3:15:11 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:15:12 Bill Simmons? Did you feel like people didn't know who you were in the Fast universe?
3:15:17 Speaker 04 I don't.
3:15:17 Bill Simmons? Like, who is this guy?
3:15:18 Speaker 04 That's the thing, like, I don't expect anyone to know who I am and I don't care.
3:15:21 Bill Simmons? It feels like it's, and I'm a, I'm a card carrying Fast and Furious guy, but it's, it's like this universe that's over here in a lot of ways. And it's massive and it's global.
3:15:30 Speaker 04 So is WWE?
3:15:31 Bill Simmons? Yeah, that's what I mean. It's almost like, I wonder what the overlap was between the two worlds.
3:15:35 Speaker 04 Again, like, I can't say how much WWE has prepared me for who I am. Here's a, here's a, a genre where you can go around the world and little kids come up to you and do this, but no one in entertainment knows you.
3:15:53 Speaker 04 So a lot of the opportunities I've had, people have no effing clue who I am. And that's okay, because I just want to do good. I figure it's just like when in wrestling, when nobody knew who I was.
3:16:03 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:16:04 Speaker 04 All right, all I gotta do is go out there and get the noise. And then I'll get another chance. Just go out there and get the noise. And I don't care that people don't know who I am, that don't know my story. What I care is at one point, someone was like, I'm gonna bet on you. And maybe it's to say a few lines or a cameo or whatever. Dom needs a brother. Connect the dots however you want. We would like to bet on you.
3:16:29 Bill Simmons? I feel like that brother would have come up in the first eight movies.
3:16:32 Speaker 04 Hey, man. I'm glad it came up in the ninth and I'm glad it was me. So in the bottom of the ninth, I made it in. You know what I'm saying?
3:16:39 Bill Simmons? Snuck in there.
3:16:40 Speaker 04 Just try to do the best you can with the opportunities and don't care like, I don't, I never care about who knows me and who doesn't.
3:16:47 Bill Simmons? I don't even know where Vin ends and Dom begins at this point. I just picture him like hanging out, like he invites you to his birthday party and he gives a speech to everybody. And he's like, to me familia. And does like one of the.
3:17:01 Speaker 04 Corona's all around?
3:17:02 Bill Simmons? Yeah, and just the Corona's and does this whole thing. And I just feel like he's merged.
3:17:07 Speaker 04 I, I bet there are folks out there that would have that perspective about me. To say like, I don't know where John Cena, the WWE character ends and where like John begins.
3:17:17 Bill Simmons? Right. Well, you were the first era of the people that didn't have the gimmick or like you actually just used your name.
3:17:23 Speaker 04 You want to talk again about luck? That was not my choice.
3:17:26 Bill Simmons? Right, and now that's basically almost everybody.
3:17:28 Speaker 04 They want, they went from an attitude era of like edgy TV and for a hot second, they were like, we want more realism. I snuck in.
3:17:38 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:17:38 Speaker 04 Like in them, like the Indiana Jones, where the thing is like closing and I snuck in. Like me, Brock, Randy, Batista, Shelton Benjamin. Under the thing, we got it. You know, and.
3:17:51 Speaker 04 It's so many people would look at that and be like, well, you don't own your name. I don't care. So many people because of what WWE has done is have put the IP out there, have allowed me to get so many opportunities. So I could be greedy and try to cash in on like, give me every shekel that that is attached to that name because it's my name. Or I could be grateful to be like, because of that name, I did this, this and this, which they have nothing to do with. And then it vaulted into this, this and this, they have nothing to do with. And every once in a while, there's a ball cap and T-shirt thing that they, they absolutely get what they've earned.
3:18:31 Speaker 04 You know, but it's weird because it's like, man, you got to use your real name. But some people come at it from the perspective of like, do they own your name? That's weird. It just is what it is. I'm so lucky.
3:18:41 Bill Simmons? I'd like to see you at a couple more big Boston sports games, I think would be a good 2026 and beyond for you. Like lean into the Boston thing a little more. We count your titles.
3:18:50 Speaker 04 You would like to.
3:18:51 Bill Simmons? Twenty seven titles in the 21st century, thanks to you.
3:18:54 Speaker 04 You count them weird.
3:18:55 Bill Simmons? What do you mean?
3:18:56 Speaker 04 You counted them weird.
3:18:57 Bill Simmons? What? Well, I counted the WWF ones, WWF slash E. Were they all E or were there a couple of Fs in there?
3:19:04 Speaker 04 I think they were all E.
3:19:06 Bill Simmons? They're all E? I forget. I never really, I always thought they should have won that lawsuit.
3:19:11 Speaker 04 I.
3:19:12 Bill Simmons? I get it. The other one was first, but it always bugged me.
3:19:15 Speaker 04 Sometimes it's not worth it.
3:19:17 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I guess not.
3:19:18 Speaker 04 And like.
3:19:18 Bill Simmons? They move seamlessly to WWE.
3:19:20 Speaker 04 What a great way again to like, no, we're going in this direction. No one's going to get it.
3:19:26 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:19:27 Speaker 04 Until everyone gets it.
3:19:28 Bill Simmons? All right.
3:19:29 Speaker 04 And man, I had folks in like 2014, you still WWF? Yo, it has been WWE for like a decade now. Now no one.
3:19:38 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:19:38 Speaker 04 Like no one, the F is out. So good choice.
3:19:43 Bill Simmons? You had to get rid of the F in one of your moves, right?
3:19:47 Speaker 04 Yes, yes.
3:19:49 Bill Simmons? When they, when they got, when they went PG?
3:19:51 Speaker 04 So again, a great, a good explanation, right?
3:19:57 Speaker 04 Brock Lesnar's move was the F5.
3:20:00 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:20:00 Speaker 04 I had a similar move where you pick a guy up. We both pick guys up. He, he is, is a little bit more strong where he helicopters.
3:20:06 Bill Simmons? Yours was the FU.
3:20:08 Speaker 04 But it came out of nowhere. Like, I'm, I'm a middle. So again, the match is not about me. I'm a middle man for Brock to beat, to go to the Undertaker.
3:20:18 Speaker 04 But the more you can make that middle match exciting.
3:20:20 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:20:21 Speaker 04 The cooler it is because it's, it's a good one off of the fans. So I didn't, um, I didn't try to make Brock look bad, but I was abrasive with my trash talk. And was like, you have the F5, I have the FU. And that's where the.
3:20:35 Bill Simmons? That's a pretty good line.
3:20:36 Speaker 04 That's where the name of the move happened. So I kept using it. And then as we evolved into PG, um, I was told like, hey, we, we can't use that anymore. And then switching it to the attitude adjustment has been incredible because like, it's so weird that art imitates life. Like I'm.
3:20:56 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:20:57 Speaker 04 I'm always trying to change people's perspective or off from a new perspective. So literally I'm trying or, or leaning into the fact that you can adjust your attitude no matter what at any moment. And that like really changes the dynamic of anything, you know? It's what, if the, if the move was still called the FU, it'd be tough for me to sit here.
3:21:19 Bill Simmons? Yeah, seriously.
3:21:20 Speaker 04 You know what I'm saying? It evolved because it had to, but it, rather than swimming upstream, yeah, okay. It's the AA, it's the attitude adjustment.
3:21:27 Bill Simmons? All right, December 13th, Saturday night's main event.
3:21:29 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:21:30 Bill Simmons? We don't know who you're fighting it. I hope for the sake of your chest, it's LA night. So you don't have like dark maroon slap marks.
3:21:38 Speaker 04 Ah, it's the last one.
3:21:39 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it'll be fine. All right.
3:21:40 Speaker 04 And I got two.
3:21:41 Bill Simmons? Keep going.
3:21:41 Speaker 04 I got two big old.
3:21:42 Bill Simmons? Who's favorite in that match?
3:21:44 Speaker 04 What's that?
3:21:44 Bill Simmons? Gunther versus LA Knight. Who's the favorite?
3:21:48 Speaker 04 Man.
3:21:49 Bill Simmons? It's pretty close.
3:21:52 Bill Simmons? Two guys who've been doing really well the last couple of years.
3:21:55 Speaker 04 I, I like the edge that LA Knight has. Like he, he operates on a nothing to lose sort of thing. I think, I think many times this is. I think many times he might be his own biggest hurdle. But gosh, if there's a dude willing to bet on himself, it's LA Knight and I admire that.
3:22:14 Bill Simmons? It would be fitting if you beat somebody with the LA in his name in your last match.
3:22:18 Speaker 04 It would also be great if it was in Boston. But none of that shit is in our control.
3:22:24 Bill Simmons? Yeah. It sounds like you just would have done Tampa.
3:22:27 Speaker 04 Thirty-six in Tampa would be glorious.
3:22:29 Bill Simmons? It feels like you're becoming like a Bucks fan. I don't even know if you're focused on this Patriots.
3:22:32 Speaker 04 This is gonna, this is, this is gonna burn this room up. I don't even watch anymore, man.
3:22:37 Bill Simmons? You're done, well, you're too busy.
3:22:39 Speaker 04 Uh, it's.
3:22:40 Bill Simmons? If you're flying back and forth from Budapest and you're wrestling and making movies.
3:22:43 Speaker 04 Takes time. I don't even know what day it is, man.
3:22:45 Bill Simmons? Yeah. All right. John Cena, congrats on everything. I'm glad we finally did this.
3:22:48 Speaker 04 Ending it? We're ending it on a downer of like, I don't even watch sports anymore, man.
3:22:52 Bill Simmons? We're ending it on.
3:22:53 Speaker 04 That's how it goes? That's the last moment we have?
3:22:56 Bill Simmons? Well, I could make you do a freestyle rap, but I'm not gonna do that either.
3:22:59 Speaker 04 Do anything. You could ask me to and I'll say, no, that's a great idea. That's, yeah, that's.
3:23:04 Bill Simmons? No, I'm happy for you that you feel like this last year was in some ways your favorite year. Like, that's a great way to go out. How many people get to retire on their terms where they're actually happy with that play out?
3:23:15 Speaker 04 You used it. You said it was my terms. I would do it in infinity if I could. This is not my terms. These aren't my terms.
3:23:20 Bill Simmons? What is your terms?
3:23:21 Speaker 04 My terms is do it forever.
3:23:22 Bill Simmons? But you can control when you stop doing it and you're controlling it, which is a good thing.
3:23:27 Speaker 04 Well, again, I asked if like, hey, uh, company, do you think this is a good business idea? And they agreed, so we're able to do it. What I love most about the year is I think it will keep on giving moments after it's done.
3:23:43 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:23:43 Speaker 04 I think people will begin to continue to reflect in like, oh, but maybe it was, this was the story they were trying to tell. I think as, it's weird to talk about it. Cause WWE is so at, at the moment, like something happens on television and people are like, I hate this. Or like, this is the greatest. And it is, it has been a year long story.
3:24:05 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:24:06 Speaker 04 And people will digest it. Once the last one happens on the 13th. And then I think they'll reflect, especially when they realize that I'm not coming back. And then like, you could dive into like, oh, man, what were they really trying to do across a year? It's never, it's never been done before. I, I would not, I could not give an ounce more of effort. I don't think there's a, a single thing I would have changed and I like that it isn't perfect. I like it. Like I, I like that parts changed. I like that dates and cities changed. I like that the last one isn't in Boston.
3:24:42 Speaker 04 All the stuff that like, it would be perfect if, no, life isn't perfect. Like you just do the best you can with what you got. And I, I personally like all that stuff.
3:24:51 Bill Simmons? I think the patience angle is good too, because you're right. Everybody's like, yes, no, quick, move on to the next thing. Scroll up and down on my reels.
3:25:00 Speaker 04 Something as simple as like, in my last title defense, having Liv Morgan assist and beat me in the same way that I turned on Cody. But she did it better than me.
3:25:12 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
3:25:13 Speaker 04 Just being able to like, hey, wait, you're going to get a call back to this moment in February, in November, but just, just wait for it, wait for it. And being able to pay it off that late in the game, like, I don't know. And whether that means anything to anyone else with me, I just, I like to know that I'm, there's not a moment I'm not thinking of. There's not, we're, we're doing everything we can. I'm doing everything I can. So I just, I hope it, if it doesn't, nothing ever stands the test of time, but I'll, I'll be very good on the 13th. Knowing that like, all right, I gave the best I could this year.
3:25:47 Speaker 04 I truly, all the wisdom, tricks, uh, knowledge, physical ability, strength I have left, effort, seconds, time, you know, advice, whatever, every, I, I, I don't have anything left. You know, and, and the 13th is, is going to be special in that regard of like, putting a period on this.
3:26:05 Bill Simmons? Did Dom Toretto RSVP yet or no? Can't make it. He's gotta save the world.
3:26:11 Bill Simmons? Too bad.
3:26:12 Bill Simmons? I don't wanna, I don't wanna tell you what it's about, but there's cars involved.
3:26:16 Bill Simmons? He gets selfish that way with the cars.
3:26:18 Bill Simmons? Duty calls.
3:26:20 Bill Simmons? John Cena, thank you. Great to do this.
3:26:22 Bill Simmons? Thank you.
3:26:23 Bill Simmons? All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to John Cena. Thanks to House and Belloni. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo as well. New rewatchable is coming on Monday. I'll tell you the movie on Sunday night because we haven't taped it yet and I want to make sure it actually gets taped. But in the meantime, you can watch on HBO and HBO Max. Our first installment of this season of the Music Box series. It is the Jeff Buckley documentary by Amy Berg. It's awesome. It premieres on HBO Thursday night and then you can find it on HBO Max as well. So go check it out. Have a great weekend. I will see you on Sunday with Cousin Sal live after the Sunday night game.
3:27:17 Bill Simmons? Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner.
3:28:01 Bill Simmons? Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats and easy entertaining. Elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs
3:28:46 Bill Simmons? or New York strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics. And as the fall evenings draw in, why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lasages and supplements? Make sure you look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market.
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