SGA’s Game 2 Masterpiece, Summer NBA Chaos Watch, McDavid’s Cup Quest, and ‘Tires’ With Ryen Russillo

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to react to OKC taking Game 2 at home against the Pacers in the NBA Finals (2:25). Then, they discuss the bad ratings for these Finals and why the NHL Stanley Cup final may be more interesting this year (18:07). Finally, they play a game of “I wouldn’t be surprised if …” for the NBA offseason, discuss trade targets around the league, and more (46:33)! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! michelobultra.com/courtside/champsbottles ENJOY RESPONSIBLY ©️ 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA®️ LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every single day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes. Get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long. Because it's not football without food. It really isn't. Popeyes offer valid through November 1st. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where we have a new rewatch of those coming for you on Monday night.

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

  We did Working Girl, it was me and Amanda Dobbins and Joanna Robinson. This is a beloved movie. There was a lot of pressure, but I thought we pulled off a really good podcast and you can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify. This is a pretty good sports weekend. We didn't just have game two of the NBA Finals that I'm about to talk about with Ryan Rusillo in one second, but we had an awesome French Open. I don't know whether it was because they switched channels with the French Open or what happened, but the women's, the French lady making the semis was great. Coco wins in the finals. And then today, five setter, five and a half hours. Alcaraz comes back, beats center.

• 1:30Bill Simmons?

  Really great drama with that. We had UFC last night. We had Money in the Bank, WWE. That happened. Red Sox Yankees, just when it looked like the Red Sox season was over. They sucked me back in and then we had the NBA Finals as well. So we're hitting, we're hitting, hitting June here. NBA Finals, we'll see if this can end up being an awesome series. Game one was awesome. Game two wasn't as awesome, but there were a lot of lessons. We're going to talk about that as well as a bunch of NBA predictions for what's going to happen the rest of June, because it's starting to get a little action packed here, but it's all next. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna bring in Pearl Jam and then Ryan Russillo, Sunday night, next. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years.

• 2:15Bill Simmons?

  And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full-court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm, with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 3:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, Sunday night, just watched game two. Indiana, OKC. I'm sorry, Russillo. I thought that might actually be a good game. I was all excited to just say like, holy shit. We're on pace for an amazing series. And all of a sudden, halfway through the second quarter, that game slipped away. And that was it. Indiana got the game they wanted. One and one, heading back to Indiana for game three. But what's your big takeaway from that one?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  A masterful game from SGA. I mean, this was the full display of his ability, of his understanding, his smarts, his efficiency. I mean, the stuff that he was doing, he was just in control of the whole thing. And it was, it was just so like functional. You know, that's the difference. Like, I enjoy the visual of Ant more than I do SGA. I've never for a second thought Ant was a better player than SGA. But like, this is the part where it's just... So much of the focus on what he's doing, dictating things, getting empty on the left side, going, if you're going to double me, I'm going to do this to you. If you do this, I'm going to do this. And it was like every single move he made was, was just the right one. He was awesome.

• 4:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. SGA was the takeaway. I actually felt like they didn't talk about him enough on the broadcast because to me, no, just that was, I thought they could have done five, six more minutes on this guy's just dominating the Pacers. They seemed fixated on Halliburton not taking control offensively. I thought, OKC won this game offensively.

• 4:33Bill Simmons?

  You know, they, they controlled the rebounding in this game. Last game they didn't. SGA was the best player in the court by far. They got a really good Dorrick game. They got a really good Caruso game.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  And Wiggins.

• 4:44Bill Simmons?

  And then some Wiggins threes. And that's just like, that's, OKC has had 30 games that looked like that during the course of the season. SGA is awesome. Three role guys step up. They get a couple of defensive patches. And I, I gotta say, I didn't mind how Halliburton played. I know, I know sometimes it looks a little dicey when you look at the box score at halftime and you're like, ah, why isn't he asserting himself? But I think he's one of those guys that just makes the right play a lot. And the way OKC was defending him, the people that are throwing at him, you know, he's just not going to dribble into two guys. He's not going to try to take 24 footers with, with two hands in his face, you know, in the second quarter of a game. He feels it out. He almost, almost attacks

• 5:28Bill Simmons?

  the game like a hockey player. And, you know, he ramped it up in the fourth quarter, but I, I certainly didn't think he was the reason they lost. Did you? It was, I wouldn't put him in the top five.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Well, I think he's in the top five.

• 5:40Bill Simmons?

  You put him top five? I would not.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  I mean, five, you can come up with five reasons why the Pacers lost this before Halliburton.

• 5:45Bill Simmons?

  They couldn't stop, yeah, couldn't stop SGA. Role players couldn't, couldn't shoot. Second quarter, what was it? 33, 27? And all of a sudden, OKC blew the game open when he was on the bench. I thought they didn't control the boards in the same way. And I really thought they were going to get something from Mather in this game and they didn't again. And the Matt, what did Mather, McConnell had 11. Matherin 14, but most, most of those were when the game was pretty much done. But, um, and then Toppin just had three. Toppin was one for eight. They couldn't get that, the bench guys to really get going in the same way. I don't know. OKC was going to win this game. It was an easy bet. That was why the line was 11 and a half heading in there.

• 6:30Bill Simmons?

  But I don't know you. So you thought, you thought there was some blame on Halliburton?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's 180 and he has two baskets. So in the way that we've started to talk about Halliburton, the expectations that you're not going to be invisible offensively. And I think you're right that, you know, it's in the past, we talk about like, hey, where's this guy? And then everything just kind of goes crazy in the playoffs with, with how much we adjust some of the ceilings on the players. Um, and we know that he is, he is fully capable of just not having a great scoring game. But to your point, being very in control of everything that's happening and making the right decisions and everything. But he just wasn't aggressive at all. Like when he finally had that second make, the game basically felt like it was over anyway. And it was, um, that might've been the third make, but it was just a simple like handoff.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  And then he runs his guy into the handoff for the screen and just gets a little bit of momentum going towards the hoop and hits this floater. You know, like, all right, you know, where's, how hard is it to do that a few more times earlier on? I do think with OKC's defense, and I'm crediting the Pacers and Halliburton and Carlisle for using him off the ball instead of just doing this straight, hey, we're going to do this thing over and over and over again, right at you. And then it becomes easy to defend, especially against this team, uh, meaning the Thunder who they've been defensively. But I don't know, I just would have liked to see him be a bit more aggressive. I, I wouldn't spend an hour trashing the guy because that would, that would feel unfair of what he's done. But he, he just, yeah, I don't, I mean, the easiest thing in the world is just to be like, oh, you need to do more. You need to, well, no shit, no shit.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  He needs to do more, but I, I'm not like mad at him today.

• 8:05Bill Simmons?

  Right. I thought game five of the New York series, I thought he was, I thought that was a really strange game by him. I didn't feel like this game was that strange. Dort was, I voted for Dort for Defensive Player of the Year. I thought Dort threw everything he had at him. It was interesting when they interviewed Jalen Williams at the end of the third quarter and they're like, what are you doing to slow down Haliburton? He's like, Lou Dort. Lou Dort, he's going full tilt. And then when he comes out, there's Caruso and their entire game plan was like, we gotta make other people beat us. We can't let him get going. And also when they were making shots, they couldn't run. So I don't know. I'm sure he'll look at stuff and maybe, maybe he'll try to get going in some ways, but I thought he took some, he took a couple of good threes that I thought were going in. They didn't. And the

• 8:47Bill Simmons?

  problem for them is when he's not scoring and they're not getting fast break points. All of a sudden it starts to, we start adding up and it's like, shit, how are they going to get to 110? If he's not going to have points and they're not going to get fast break points and they're not going to hit a bunch of threes. And that was it. But you know, they got the game they won. Now, OKC gets to go back to Indy. That Indy game three is going to be, you know, I'm sure all the Indiana legends will be there. The crowd's going to be crazy. And we, we've seen OKC on the road look a little sketchy. Sometimes, you know, they're a different team at home than on the road. So if I'm Indiana, I'm like, we're good. We have three games at home. Let's do this.

• 9:29Bill Simmons?

  Did you see any adjustment stuff from OKC? Other than they played, seemed like they played the bigs a little bit more, but it wasn't like dramatic. Holmgren played 27, Hartenstein played 22. So they never went super small, I don't think. Other than that, I didn't really see anything.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love the Hartenstein minutes again. I liked him in game one. And you know, there was a couple of things I was looking for and I thought the double big stuff really worked. I mean, they were a disaster on the boards in that first game. Pacers had 56 boards. They were plus 17. They hold them to 35 boards. Granted, better shooting as well, but a minus eight for the Pacers on this one. So. There was how much he wants to do the double big stuff. It seems pretty clear. And this is the other thing that I saw in that last regular season game is that I don't know if OKC is worried about Hartenstein being a target for all of these different guys that are really good with the ball in their hands. You know, it's like four different guys. If they feel like if they go double big, then it's a real concern what's going to happen with Siakam, I imagine is is

• 10:29Speaker 01

  part of thinking about it. But you know, sometimes when we think about different roster options and which five guys you want out there, we only think of the downside to what those things can be. And I liked the minutes tonight from those guys and they didn't, you know, that was another thing with with game one. I thought he brought back SGA a little late. Tonight, it didn't really matter. He brought him in two minutes after Halliburton. And I thought Carlisle, I talked with Legs about it, like Carlisle was probably thrilled that they went small to close the last three plus minutes in game one, being like, all right, great, because now we don't have to worry about Miles Turner being a target as much, even though Turner was kind of like their offensive plan, it felt like for much of the third quarter. So by that point, the game didn't really matter

• 11:10Speaker 01

  to see if they were going to experiment with something small again. And you're right about the pace thing, like the Pacers always have, like this Knicks series versus this series, it looks so different because the Knicks could not ever figure out a way to adjust to the transition part of it. And that transition part of it through these two games, I think it's concerning. It's great. They got the split, obviously, you know, there are huge underdogs in this. But have you felt like at any point during these two games where you're like, oh, there's Indiana, like outrushing and and just flying and getting those easy buckets and the defense is scrambling? Like, it's just something I thought about as this one went final. I'm like, I don't really remember any part of this offense the last two days or last two games where it felt

• 11:54Speaker 01

  like it was just so unrelenting because of their pace.

• 11:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and that's the thing with Halliburton, like, he's not like a mega-usage guy. You know, and if he misses a couple of shots early and if he's not gonna run the ball in the fast break, it's not like he's gonna figure out how to get 20 shots that was same way SGA would. I'm with you. There was a couple of moments when they ran, when they actually had like lanes. And you're like, oh, there it is. But I really think OKC's entire game plan is for that not to happen. You know, they're just, they're sending multiple dudes at Halliburton and they don't, they don't want Indiana to run. When Indiana runs, they're a different team. I think at home, they're gonna be able to run probably a little bit more. I bet. So I was with you on the double bigs and they only did it, it felt like for maybe four or five minutes. But in

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  those minutes, they just seem huge compared to Indiana because Indiana is not a big team. I wonder conversely with Indiana, are they gonna go super small and try to have like multiple guards and multiple handlers? Like, will they play McConnell, Halliburton and Nemhard at the same time, shit like that to try to make it a little more chaotic and track meeting? Trying to think of what adjustments they would do.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  I think you're in a lot of, if you're that small though, man, and even like to the Pacers small lineup, it's not necessarily that small because Toppin and Siakam are probably their preferable five, depending on what they want to do with the rest of the guards. But you know, OKC's a big team. And even though Caruso and Wallace are their smallest guys, they're just such badasses and they're so strong. Caruso's in on everything. Like that stuff when the game starts to get to a point where like other guys are tired and then he's just on the baseline and it feels like he's just everywhere and everybody's forgetting about him and how hard he's fighting for position and becoming like this last second little thing. It's just,

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  He's all over the court. Sometimes he's under the rim, then he's in the corner, then he's under the rim again. It's like, how'd you get over there? I also feel like, and I don't, I don't care who wins this series. I'm amazed by how much he gets away with, with the hand checking and stuff. He's just.

• 14:02Bill Simmons?

  The way he uses his hands, it's gotta be so frustrating to go against him. Cause like, everything's a foul, so nothing's a foul, right? He's just, he's establishing contact and he's just, that's what he's doing. And it's really effective. And then they, you know, Wallace is another one who's a little bit handsy. Dort is just like, built like a fucking football linebacker.

• 14:24Bill Simmons?

  I can't imagine Hallburn's having a great time in this series. Even the game winning shot he hit in game one, that was not an easy shot. I, it was funny because we went right after the game and I only saw that play. And then we went right on. There were so many fascinating wrinkles to that last play. Where they, it seemed like there was a split second where he could have backdoored to Siakam for a game winning layup. And Caruso was kind of frozen by the possibility of it. But the shot he ended up making, it's so weird to see somebody they think they're going to pass and then shoot it the last second. But my point is nothing's, nothing's coming that easy, Tim. Do you think OKC, has this, has those first two games changed? Any opinion you had on this series?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  You know, I think the only thing, not really. So the simple answer is no. I thought it was going to be really hard for the Pacers to solve this defense four times for four wins in a seven game series.

• 15:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  But with what the Pacers have done here historically with these comebacks and what is it? Eight and one in clutch games. So of course tonight doesn't get into the clutch category.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  The only thing you were thinking about in between game one and two, at least for me, you know, I'll ask you, but it was, is there going to be some weird? Like the Pacers are just more comfortable in this spot. Because it seems a little silly to be like, you know, the Thunder were young and this is still sort of new to them. And it's like, well, you know, it's not like the Pacers have been in seven Eastern Conference Finals here. This is, this is exactly like this hardened team, even though they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals last year. So they make it one more round. And so I was, I was letting those thoughts enter my head, but I never felt like conclusive of going, does Indiana have this like, intangible advantage?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  That's hard to describe other than there's just certain teams that look comfortable in these moments and, and other teams that don't.

• 16:17Bill Simmons?

  It's so funny you mentioned thoughts creeping in your head. About halfway through that first quarter, when it was going back and forth and OKC looked a bit frazzled and the pace was a little chaotic, but Indiana seemed really comfortable with how it was going. And I started thinking like, maybe they just love the speed and physicality and everything of an OKC series in a way that other teams seem to eventually shrink from it. Like, maybe this is just, maybe they're just finding themselves. Maybe this team is just hitting some gear. And there's been examples in history, like I remember in 04 with the Pistons, as that Pistons Lakers series went along, you could kind of feel them growing into just

• 16:57Bill Simmons?

  the dominant team. And same with the Spurs against the Heat 2014. So I didn't, I was watching going, huh, maybe Indiana is just awesome, you know, and then all of a sudden they're down 15 in the second quarter. It's like, okay, some, still some limitations here. I still think OKC is going to win the series. I think.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  And staying on the.

• 17:18Bill Simmons?

  The books agree.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  The home part of this, and I'd love to know the updated odds when you get those. But if you think of like, the two things that have happened for these two teams to be meeting for a championship, OKC has been destroying teams at home. So what happened tonight is actually very normal. I mean, they beat Memphis by 50. They, they lose on the only other game that they've lost at home now. So they've lost two playoff games at home.

• 17:48Bill Simmons?

  Two really dumb last 10 seconds of the game losses.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  So it's the Aaron Gordon.

• 17:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Game winner.

• 17:53Bill Simmons?

  Everything else has been double figures.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  And then the only lead the Pacers have in game one is when Halliburton hits it with 0.3 seconds left.

• 18:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  So those are probably more anomalies than some of these other games they have on their resume. Like whether it's, you know, they have game two against Denver, they beat them by 43 in game two. They kill them in game seven. You know, they, they put it to Minnesota in those third quarters. They play that epic game at Minnesota in game four and win that one. And then it's like, okay, well, what kind of fight does Minnesota have? And then they lose by 30. So there's just some serious ass kicking that happened.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  Especially at home.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  In that place.

• 18:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  So tonight, tonight, I guess you could argue kind of both games make sense because of what the Pacers have done and what the Thunder have done. So we're at 1-1.

• 18:43Bill Simmons?

  They're minus 560.

• 18:47Bill Simmons?

  Here's my sports radio topic for you.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  Is the NHL finals officially more interesting than the NBA finals this year? Because the NHL finals have been unbelievable. That game, that game too, the other night was out of control. That was one of the best finals hockey games I've watched. And there's so many storylines in Florida. It seems like they have every annoying guy in the league. They have like an all star team. And then you have McDavid, that assist he had in the, in the first period, when he basically juke two guys and got it to, to LD for the old goal there. I just, I don't know. It's, it's been an amazing series and you're watching that. It's like two teams at the peak of their powers.

• 19:34Bill Simmons?

  Like McDavid, the best, probably the best NHL player who hasn't won the cup like ever. And then you have this Florida team that has a chance to go back to back and has all these great players on it. And then you watch this OKC Indiana team where it's like, OKC, probably not the team they're going to be two years from now. They'll probably be even better in 2027. And then Indiana, who's just having this kind of miraculous, crazy run. And it just seems way more, I don't know, just random than that Florida Edmonton where you're like, holy shit, this is, this could be one of the defining NHL series we've had. That's my, that's my case.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  I've loved these two games as I expected to love them. So yeah, I've enjoyed the cup final more than the NBA finals.

• 20:19Bill Simmons?

  It's not even close.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 20:21Bill Simmons?

  But I think, I think when we get to Indy, I think the NBA finals can rise up.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  The other thing, it's a very selfish reason is there's nothing like watching a sporting event and not having to have any fucking takes.

• 20:35Bill Simmons?

  You like the relief?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's awesome. I don't take notes. I don't know what the hell's going on. So I was just like, this is fun. Like, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy the sport because I'm dropping in. I feel like, like it's almost like voyeurism. Just like, all right, I'm going to hang out here in the bushes. And and watch what's going on.

• 20:58Bill Simmons?

  I thought that went the French open the last few days, too. I just hopped in. I watched.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Creepy bill.

• 21:04Bill Simmons?

  I watched the third, fourth and fifth sets from hiding behind a tree. And I was just like, this is the best shot making I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it's on Clay, so it's a little different than, you know, you, you have a little more chances to have rallies and stuff, but holy shit.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:18Bill Simmons?

  Holy shit, was it great?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Well, what's the, what's the storyline? Like play it out. What?

• 21:24Bill Simmons?

  For which one?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  There's, is there anything? I mean, certainly you would say, hey, SGA cements his place in this game.

• 21:31Bill Simmons?

  I think that's why people are struggling with this series. Cause if OKC wins, the, the takes are, is this the start of like a little mini dynasty? You start, you go backwards and you're like, is this like 2015 Warriors? Is this 2000 Lakers? As you go through these, these teams that have these half decade runs. This is the start of that. If Indiana wins, it's the, probably the single craziest champion we've had since you and I have known each other. I mean, you'd have to go back, maybe you'd have to go into the mid nineties Rockets, that one year when they were like, were they like 40, the back to back, the second. Was it the first season? One of those seasons, they were just underdogs in every series and somehow won. You know, but at least they had Hakeem, it made more sense.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Clutch city. Yeah, week. So like, well, how would a Pacers championship compare to Dirk's championship against the Heat?

• 22:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, Dirk was an all time great player. So at least like in, in the way we look at basketball and the way we've learned about basketball. It at least makes some sense. Indiana winning, where you said it yourself, like, like you're still struggling whether Halliburton's the top 10 player or not.

• 22:44Bill Simmons?

  Because he's on all the list now and you're like, all right, if he's a top 10 player, why did I forget he was out there for the first half of game two of the finals?

• 22:54Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. It was just the 04 Pistons would be the only other one, but that team had just that that starting five was almost their superstar identity, you know?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  What did they make eight or excuse me, was it six Eastern Conference Finals in a row?

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  The Detroit team, so?

• 23:10Bill Simmons?

  But they were huge underdogs in 04. I think they were like plus 400.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  No doubt.

• 23:15Bill Simmons?

  People are handing the title to the Lakers.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not saying that wasn't really surprising. And maybe this is year two of like the Pacers being in the Eastern Conference Finals a bunch of years in a row. Like it's, it's certainly not impossible, especially when you start thinking about what the East could look like after this summer. But you know?

• 23:34Bill Simmons?

  If anyone's gonna be left, we might, we might not have enough guys for an All-Star team in the East.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  The storyline.

• 23:41Bill Simmons?

  Celtics clean house and if Giannis goes west, we're gonna be in major trouble.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  I mean, the Knicks are still gonna be good. I think Cleveland's still gonna be good, but whatever. I think we've already done this before, but you know how like storylines, like one of the biggest reasons why people got in F1 is because of the storylines. Cause now you had this familiarity with these characters. It was this very elitist kind of world, you know? I remember Kevin Clark writing about it. He's like, the drivers are like good looking and all the locations are like the best places in the world. And so there's this almost like lifestyles, the rich and famous element to when you would get into F1. But the biggest thing was, and what every league is always hoping to do is can you make a connection with the fans? So they now care about the outcomes of these games because there's some attachment, right?

• 24:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And it made me think about hockey. Like, sure, I want McDavid to get a cup because he is that special and I, I hate it when the great ones don't have it. And there's this like, like I would have been furious if Pedro ended up without a World Series. Like that would have bothered me, you know, I probably eventually would have gotten over it and gone off into retirement and been okay, but. Even even players I don't like, you know, like, I don't know.

• 24:55Bill Simmons?

  Is there a gym? Do you have a gym when you're retired? You'll be fine.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah, you know, about the youth. You know, even Barry Bonds, like, there's something to be said of like, I, I still wish he had won.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  What was it, 2002?

• 25:09Bill Simmons?

  It was the Angels series.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 25:11Bill Simmons?

  He did everything he could have possibly done.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but in that time, at that time, 20 years ago, I was rooting for Bonds because I was like, I want him to be recognized. And it's the same kind of thing with McDavid, but then you add in the rematch and the down 3-0 last year and just, I mean, I don't know that I care about any of the storylines other than, and this also could be what's happening in me. Like, I even messed around with a soccer match today after the tennis. Because the same thing with F1, I know we've talked about it a little bit, is I'm enjoying sports that are not disrupted. And hockey is not disrupted for these really, really long stretches and you're just watching guys play. And unfortunately with basketball and football, the ends of these games, that whole dramatic like tension edge of your seat,

• 25:58Speaker 01

  because you're actually constantly getting a chance to like, reset emotionally. And in hockey, you don't have any time, like, you're afraid to even look at your phone for a second. When we had what we had on Friday night, so I love the sport. I don't talk about it very much, but, because again, I don't really feel all that comfortable talking about it because I'm not that versed on all the minor details of it, but I, yeah, I mean, there's no question, I've enjoyed those two games more than games one and two of the NBA Finals.

• 26:27Bill Simmons?

  I was at a birthday party Friday and there was no TV on and it was like an outside backyard, but they had a TV.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Did you get any good?

• 26:35Bill Simmons?

  I made the host put the hockey game on. Like, can you put it on, he finds it, puts it on and like, nobody else at the party cares. I'm like. Third period, we gotta, I need a couple of people like we gotta, and within, I don't know, two minutes, there was like five, five guys just kind of like riveted by it because it was, it's that kind of finals. And then every once in a while, McDavid just goes really fast. It's so funny, people who know nothing about hockey are like, what's the deal with that guy? Well, I see so much faster than everybody else. It's like, that's McDavid, who's probably the best player, best offensive player the league's ever had since Gretzky.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Watching him go fast, no, I'm with you on this.

• 27:19Bill Simmons?

  There's nothing more exciting than him going fast.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  He doesn't even have to do anything. And I get so excited, once he just decides, I'm gonna go faster than everybody else.

• 27:29Bill Simmons?

  I like when they run the play where it's, it's like, uh, no, they, they're in their own end, and they almost do like, like, it's like an inbound play in the NBA when they have the guy running full speed. But they'll do it just to try to create space so he can heat up fast and go fast. And he just flies. And it's really fun. He goes so fast that you almost wonder, could he go just like in video games? Could he just go around the net and just wrap it around and they wouldn't even know what happened? Anyway, that game went into double overtime. And it's interesting because Marchand, he's on, uh, he's on Florida. They trade the conditional second round pick for him. And it activates if they make the

• 28:10Bill Simmons?

  round three, which they do. And then, you know, he comes up massive. And now he has the third most playoff goals ever. It was hard not to, harder to root against him. I don't even know who I'm rooting for. I bet on Edmonton for the series, but it's hard for me not to root against him. What I love about Florida is how many annoying guys they have. I think they might have broken the record. They have the most guys who will do something cheap right after the whistle that I've ever seen in my life. It's like whistle, and then Bennett's just like elbow somebody's side of the head. What? I didn't do that. What do you mean? But yeah, it's a really good series. I think it's a good point that you made about the storylines thing, because it is one of these, everyone's gonna just point to the ratings, because the ratings will be terrible tonight, right?

• 28:54Bill Simmons?

  It's, it'll be, oh, this is the worst Sunday night rating we've had since so and so. Because the game was decided the third quarter.

• 29:03Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's two small markets. It's two teams we don't have a lot of familiarity with, and it's a league that we've talked about many times on this podcast that has refused to push the next generation of teams because they're just putting the old stars on over and over and over again in the biggest spots. These are two teams that we knew were good heading into the season. OKC was on TV decent amount. I don't think Indiana was, but you know, you kind of learn these guys through the playoffs. And I don't think the league, you know, if you're going to criticize the league on anything, it's just not pushing the younger teams that they know are going to be good. We knew these teams were going to be good. And I don't think they were on TV enough. Would that have changed the rating? I have no idea.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Probably not. I don't know. No, because I mean, as great as SGA is, and you know, I think tonight was really special. I think it was a really special game that it wasn't just the scoring. It was like, okay, this guy's at another level than the other nine guys, whoever the other nine guys are that are out there. And so it's just nice, you know? It's nice if they get this to have something like that in this MVP season, have that kind of game on his resume in the biggest spot, right? And there's still going to be bigger spots, so we'll see what happens. But he's a really quiet dude, you know? He's not, he's not going in, like, he's great for a franchise to be the face of your franchise because you're just not dealing with any bullshit. But sometimes the bullshit brings people in.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And the, you know, I think we all like drama. And this league has become so popular in a way that's unlike the other leagues. And I'm not, I'm not talking about ratings, but just like the daily consciousness of it. And certainly you and I are far too in it. So maybe we're not even great gauges with this, but the amount of like nonsense that we spend hours talking about, which is actually just good because there's an awareness of this league. These are two teams, like, there's no nonsense. And that's awesome for the coaching staff. It's awesome for the locker room. But there's not really this like. It doesn't feel like there's anything necessarily at stake other than the championship. And for those secondary viewers, there's, there's probably just a lot of boredom.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Be like, oh, so their best player is like incredibly efficient with pull up jumpers. And the free throw thing hasn't been an issue really, I don't think at all. I mean, the third quarter is a free throw, a free, free throw fest either, both going both ways. But you know what I mean? Like there isn't, there isn't this like big engaging personality. Uh, which again is great if you have to work every day with these people. But the, the next day stuff and, and getting your mom to be like, what's on TV? It's, it's not a great matchup for that, which we

• 31:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, my daughter, my daughter came and watched game two with me and I don't think she looked up more than like five times. She was just on her phone. It's just, I think that's what it's probably going to be for casual viewers. It's a good point on SGA. He just does everything really well. He was awesome tonight and not awesome in like, you know, there's those two ways of being awesome in NBA game. And he's like in the quiet, efficient, almost like a Greg Maddox, just getting guys out. Not

• 32:18Speaker 01

  No, it's perfect.

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  Not doing like the 17 strikeouts.

• 32:23Bill Simmons?

  Is it, did you see that interview with him where he got asked a question? And he did the deep sigh and like search for the answer for like 10 seconds. It was pretty interesting. So I forget, uh, I think it was Malika. He asked him, said, he was like, oh man, like really wanted to come up with a good answer for it. It was just unusual because a lot of these guys are so media trained for moments like that. And these guys are still like getting used to being famous people, you know? She's famous. I don't know, but he's a Canadian star who's been in the spotlight for a while, but he's not like famous, famous. Seen a couple of commercials now. I don't think he's as, I don't, wouldn't say he's one of the 10 most famous players in the league right now.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's bad if that's your MVP and I'm not being critical of them. I just don't know that there's, and this becomes like this kind of circular thing where it happens all the time. Like I always kind of, whether I joke with you or other people that are in this business with us. It's like no one's ever lost a show because of them. They've only lost a show because people didn't do enough to promote it.

• 33:29Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Right?

• 33:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Okay. You know what? That contract, I wasn't really into it. Didn't like the producer. So I was showing up. I was giving you like my C plus game.

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And this oddly feels like I'm sort of saying something about uh someone specific, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying anything specific. I'm just saying that that's the, the norm is as soon as something's over, it'll be like, oh, well, you know, I could have done this or this could be better, the whole thing. And there, there's, remember like the baseball stuff? It's like baseball's declining because they're not marketing their stars. I've heard it with the WNBA, like they don't market enough. And I always wonder, it's like, well, if SGA is this buttoned up,

• 34:13Speaker 01

  but what are you supposed to do? Like, is it because if OKC were on national TV 12 more times this year, would the NBA finals ratings be better? And I'm asking, I don't, I don't know the answer to that, but sometimes we just default to this, well, the league should have done this, the leagues do a bad job here. And it's like, I don't know. Sometimes people just, they're just not interested. They just might not be interested. There's nothing you can do.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  I remember oh seven, when LeBron made the finals against San Antonio and we were LeBron, it was still pretty new, right? It was like, I think his fourth season.

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  And the ratings for that finals were terrible because it was a mismatch and we didn't have a real history with LeBron yet. And then he had his two MVP seasons in oh nine and 2010. And that was when it was like going to be LeBron versus Kobe and that became the storyline. And then LeBron didn't make the finals of the year. It was interesting. He, his shoe, I think the biggest selling shoe we ever had was 2011 after the decision. It was like he needed the soap opera of the decision to go to that next level. It's for like people like our parents to have opinions on him. You know, maybe SGA, maybe he needs, maybe he needs like a, like a career polarization.

• 35:30Bill Simmons?

  Consultant.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but what's he gonna do to man? Like, what could he possibly do like this is? This is actually the greatest compliment you can give somebody who's the face of a franchise is that it's so consistently every day is the same boring.

• 35:45Bill Simmons?

  He's just an awesome teammate.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:47Bill Simmons?

  Can all my teammates come in and do my interview with me?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  I just want to like, remind everyone listening, this is not even close to a criticism. This is like, all you could ever want, especially somebody this young to be like, this guy already gets it. And look, Jalen Williams did the media availability stuff before the finals even got started. I was listening on NBA radio to his press conference, but I didn't know who it was right away. I thought it was like a 45 year old coach. Like, who is this guy? I was like, this guy's really, really impressive.

• 36:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  And then I had to like, hit the screen because it was like, you know, your phone, it wasn't coming up right. And then boom, it's Jalen Williams. And I'm thinking, my God, this guy's been in the league like a, just a few years and this is what he sounds like already. Like these guys are so impressive.

• 36:37Bill Simmons?

  He might need to do what Brett Hitman Hart did in the mid 90s.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  What's?

• 36:41Bill Simmons?

  Cause he was, he was the champ. Well, he was a good guy. He was the champ, but he was kind of like, you know, he was just a professional guy. He's very similar to SGA, actually, just very good at his job.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Canadian too, isn't he?

• 36:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Canadian, always good matches. And then they kind of leaned into how do we make him a villain? And he started doing this kind of aggro Canadian guy thing and insulting, saying how Canada is better than America. And then the fans were like, what? And, and that became kind of a thing. That became his persona. Maybe that's what SGA needs to do.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:13Bill Simmons?

  It's tough to play in America when Canada is obviously a superior country.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Like what? SGA is insulting America.

• 37:22Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. We are smack dab in the middle of the finals and, you know. When your preferred team wins, in my case, the Boston Celtics, you want to celebrate in some way. I celebrated when the Celtics won last year. Ran back to my dad's place, did a podcast with my dad. And then ironically, right afterwards, celebrated with Michelob Ultra because we had some in the fridge. It was really great. The next best thing to being a champion is celebrating like one. Michelob Ultra is bottling up that winning feeling with exclusive NBA championship bottles in collaboration with renowned artist and designer Victor Solomon,

• 38:06Bill Simmons?

  the creative mind behind many of the NBA's most iconic trophies. You have the chance to get your own championship bottle. Enter for your chance to win at michelobultra.com/ courtside/champsbottles. Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champ's Bottle Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Ends June 22, 2025. See official rules at michelobultra.com/ rules for free entry, prizes, and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. What are your expectations now if you had to say, OKC will win the finals in blank games? How many games would you say?

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I said five, maybe it's six, but I don't see how the Pacers are going to solve this defense for four wins.

• 38:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't know who the offensive spark is going to be for situations like what happened today when they were able to limit Halliburton. And I don't, it'd have to be like a Matherin top end, somebody that.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  You mean game one where everybody scored? And everybody had like 10 rebounds?

• 39:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And they were still down 15 in the fourth quarter.

• 39:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  You know, they got away with the turnovers because OKC wasn't scoring on turnovers. I think it was 11 points off those 25 turnovers. And Legs and I were talking about it on our pod going like. You know how hard it is to only score 11 points off of 25 turnovers? That's harder than forcing the 25 turnovers. Just the anomaly of that and they had such great balance. But you know, Siakam doesn't have a field goal make in the second half, a game two. Granted, he was at the free throw line nine times. So sometimes the field goal attempt make thing can be a little misleading when you're looking at the shot chart after the game's over. But instead of like incredible balance, massive rebounding edge, hitting the game winner. I mean, that game was not going their way for two plus hours until it did.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And the Pacers have done it so many times, it were almost like, oh, that's not even weird for them. It's still kind of weird.

• 40:07Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, and then the flip side, OKC plays like one of the weirder offensive games they've played all year where they basically just didn't pass the ball at all.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 40:16Bill Simmons?

  They, they made a concerted effort in this game to be like, we got to move, make the extra pass. SGA led the way and that was it. I would say, um, I think Indiana gets one of the two in Indiana. Just because I, I feel like OKC has looked gamey in some of these road games. And I think that atmosphere is going to be awesome. And I think Indiana is good at home and I think they can get one. And I would, I had OKC in five, I'd probably revise that to OKC in six, but I do not think we're getting seven. I just think OKC is too good. And they really shouldn't have lost game one, when you think of it that way, right? So I would, I would kind of stick in the five to six range for them.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, like three is now harder for the Pacers because it's 1-1 than 2-0. You know, if it were 2-0, I would probably just pick the Pacers in game three. But I don't know. I, I don't know. Do the Pacers, if the Pacers, if Halliburton doesn't hit that shot, OKC wins it. Do we see a better effort from them? Or do you see like, there was one possession, it was 52-39 and I wrote this one down. And at that point, it'd gone from like 23 points to a 13-point lead. And you're like, man, here are the Pacers like hanging in there because when it was 23 OKC had the ball, then they had like a bunch of turnovers, multiple possessions. And so the Pacers getting back into the game. But there was this stretch where they kept getting offensive rebounds on this one possession. But every shot after the offensive rebound was so hard.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  And then I think they ended up either getting free throws or had a make eventually. But there was just that moment when you're watching the Thunder swarm. And you're like, these shots suck. Like these, the guys have the ball and it's like, I guess I'll go now, but I don't really want to take this. But like, this is a bad shot because it's so contested. But I don't really know if there's anything better than than what I'm doing. And they would take it. They kept getting offensive rebound, but like that specific possession. I was like, man, when the, when the Thunder get it rolling like this, like it's a pretty helpless feeling. And then to your point, it's kind of like, all right. Is it Siakam against mismatches? Are you going to run a ton of that? Are you going to have Halliburton coming off of curls? Are you going to let Nemhar ISO? Are you going to run the post stuff that they did with Turner?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Who they like Turner against Chet in the post, but nobody does it. Like, nobody goes, okay, cool. It's Chet against Turner for eight minutes. Let's make sure he gets a post touch every time down. Like NBA teams just don't even want to do it, even when they like their advantage.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the other thing, you get in the paint and you think it's a good thing to be in the paint. But against OKC, it's like the seven circle of hell.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great point.

• 42:48Bill Simmons?

  These extra hands come out. There was that one when Halliburton beat his guy off the dribble and SGA came from behind him. And did like the Spider-Man strip and just got all ball like that. No other team does shit like that.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Wallace had a contest in the corner where he blocked it. And I couldn't believe.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  Against Neesmith.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was, I was like, hey, he blocked because the ball flies out. And I'm like, what? He got his hand on that? Especially when you're thinking of like Wallace, not exactly being the biggest dude out there. And he had to make up ground. And it's not even just a contest. He blocks it and I was like, this is, they have, they have possessions defensively where it just feels horrifying.

• 43:30Bill Simmons?

  It's stupid. And if they just run back the team.

• 43:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't know why they wouldn't be a little bit better next year than this year.

• 43:40Bill Simmons?

  Because none of their guys are like exactly in their prime or past their prime, except for maybe Caruso. You could argue like, maybe he's peaked as a basketball player. This is all we're getting. You could go through every other guy on that team and make a case they're going to be like 5% better next year. I don't know if they're going to keep Dort. I don't know if there's some salary cap mechanics that they have to do. And maybe, you know, you're bringing in Topich, whatever his name is, the rookie who got hurt. You try to fill his minutes with more Wallace and maybe that's how you save some salary and push it towards Chet and Jalen Williams extensions. I don't know if they don't have to do that for another year, but this is probably the team.

• 44:19Bill Simmons?

  Florida's minus 115 to win the cup again. Edmonton's minus 104. So basically dead even. I don't know if you want to put some wood on.

• 44:29Bill Simmons?

  Or you're just naturally rooting for McDavid?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  I'm rooting for McDavid and everybody knows so much. I love the city of Edmonton.

• 44:37Bill Simmons?

  So I was watching PTI before the finals and they had Butch Agarson. And he was basically like, just tell us, give us the storylines for the series. And he did this awesome McDavid thing, which I'm sure he's done on TV too about. This is the best player ever to have not won a cup yet. And it's not close and you go through the history of hockey and nobody has ever been even close to being as good as this guy who hasn't won yet. And this is the moment. It's right here. They have some salary cap issues next year. It's going to be much harder with their roster. Like they have to do it this year. This is incredible amount of pressure. He has to get it done this year.

• 45:17Bill Simmons?

  And I was like driving my car. I'm like, yeah, he's got to get it done. I was like, I was like fired up listening to it. But this is the, uh, this is the moment and there's, there's no basketball storyline like that. I don't think in hockey. Yeah, there's no basketball equivalent of this. The only one I could like, it's basically like Dirk in 2011, but if Dirk was the best player in the league for like seven straight years. And was in that same kind of Dallas spot, I guess would be the analogy, right? Who, who else would it be in the last 25 years?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Well, you'd have to be the undisputed best in the sport. And as great as Dirk was, he wasn't that, as much as I love.

• 45:59Bill Simmons?

  LeBron just staying in Cleveland, never leaves. And now it's like 2016.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good.

• 46:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like McDavid. That video last year of him just screaming at everybody in the locker room was one of the best internet locker room videos I've ever seen in my life.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  I'm a huge Capitan guy, another Finn. Yeah, I don't know if he's any good or not. I played golf with one of the retired guys and I was like afraid to go like, is Capitan good?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  You know, be like golfing with you. Be like, is Aaron Wiggins a max guy, Bill?

• 46:37Bill Simmons?

  Would you rather have Aaron Wiggins or Michael Porter Jr.? I'm gonna bring that up again.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Man. I mean, look, Michael Porter Jr. is clearly the more talented player, right? Like, we don't.

• 46:54Bill Simmons?

  Sure.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  There's no debate there, right?

• 46:57Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Wow. I mean, I think I still, I think I still take Porter Jr. Just because the dribble shot making stuff when it's really good is, is bananas. B A N A S. Bananas.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna play a, we're gonna play a game called, I wouldn't be surprised if, dot, dot, dot. Because it is now June 8th.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  I think I misspelled bananas.

• 47:22Bill Simmons?

  Four weeks. Four weeks from now, a bunch of shit will have happened. We will have an NBA champion. We will have an NBA draft. We will probably have a couple of trades in June. We will have some free agent signings in July and maybe even some more trades and the league is going to look a lot different. Some people are saying it's gonna be the craziest offseason. I can't imagine that. I still feel like, I've heard this a couple of times, even from people we like, like Win Horse. I still feel like the Kawhi, Paul George, Anthony Davis summer, to me is the 10 out of 10 for crazy summers. I don't know if we're topping that.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Davis was in February, wasn't it?

• 48:01Bill Simmons?

  No, Davis, that that trade, it was in July. Remember, they tried to trade him in February and it didn't go through. And then all those Lakers were stuck on the team for the rest of the year.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 48:10Bill Simmons?

  After they'd been in the trade.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  I remember, yeah, because I was, I remember just only because it was Super Bowl and I was constantly, we were all on like a alert.

• 48:18Bill Simmons?

  We were on Davis.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  And so I thought, all right, I forgot about that.

• 48:21Bill Simmons?

  To me, that's the number one summer. Tough one to beat, but anyway.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  You seem to have animosity about expectations that it could be a crazy summer, though. That's what I like. I don't know. I mean, sure, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that feels like there's possibilities. It could be.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  For it to be the craziest summer, I think Giannis would have to move. I think that's, that's locked in.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  And other stuff would have to happen, but we would have to have Giannis. A Giannis trade would have to be part of that for that to even be in the conversation. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if dot, dot, dot. Give me one.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Uh, I wouldn't be surprised if, well, let me say it this way, because I, it's not based on intel or anything, but

• 49:03Speaker 01

  the Celtics clearly have to make moves

• 49:07Speaker 01

  because of the finances and it's hard to sign off on a team without Tatum and be like, that's fine. And then all the restrictions that are involved in a super expensive team without its best player. So I don't think like tanking makes any sense. You know, if the Celtics run it back with Jalen Brown and say, you know what? We get a really good player back in 25, 26, probably going to be a great season. And that's probably the case for almost every team that starts their year. It's okay. And we'll figure out a way to cut costs and move out some players, but we still want to be Jalen Brown, Tatum. Having said that, if there's an offer out there that makes sense, I think they'd explore it. So yeah, I guess I wouldn't be shocked if, if Brown, if they did treat it like a gap year. I could, I could see the argument for both approaches.

• 49:51Bill Simmons?

  I would throw a third approach in. What if they just blew it up? And I, I would have been surprised three, four weeks ago, but I don't think I'd be as surprised now.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  What's blow it up mean?

• 50:01Bill Simmons?

  I mean, like multiple trades, like they just say, fuck it. We're, we're, Tatum's not playing next year. When he comes back a year from now, we're going to reset everything and we're going to have a completely different team.

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  So that would be, because what people have been talking about with them are they'll trade Drew and/or Porzingis to get out of the tax. I think the one thing, the one thing I would definitely put major money on is that they will shed 20 to 25 million somehow over the summer. And I don't know how they're gonna do it, but they will. I guess the question for them is, could somebody overwhelm them with a Jalen offer, especially if Giannis doesn't get traded? And Jalen becomes basically the best guy to get if you're one of those teams that's right here trying to go up a notch. And Jalen's probably the number one draft pick at that point.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  See, I like that.

• 50:53Bill Simmons?

  I hope it doesn't happen, but I'm starting to get nervous that it might.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  What I like about what you said there, though, is something I think we've touched on, whether it's on this pod or on our own stuff. But sometimes it feels like it can get a little contagious, where you're doing all the work with your staff, ownership is bought into it. And it's like, okay, we're gonna go get one of these big ticket items. And then to your point, like, you feel like you've done the prep work. And not to say that a Jalen Brown package is the same as a Giannis package. But if Durant's available, like, what's that package look like? You know, what if Giannis pulls a... So it's just, you feel like you've been prepping for this moment. And then all of a sudden, Horst and Milwaukee and Giannis and his agent are like, all right, we're fine. And I'm with you now. Like, I already talked about it, how I've changed my mind after the combine, where it

• 51:40Speaker 01

  just felt like there was too much conversation around it. Where it's like, well, then if you don't do it this summer, you're probably gonna end up, like, looking at a worse market for him next summer if Milwaukee has a bad season. So doing something that I would never want to do and trade Giannis if I were GM, to me, it makes more sense now for Chicago. Who knows? Could be totally wrong. But if that is pulled off, if the Durant thing is already kind of predetermined, then maybe you're right. Maybe there are three or four teams. It's like, we were ready to, like, really swing for something. And, you know, the two, the two other options aren't available here. Does that mean that people feel like they've done enough prep work? And there's been enough conversations for that to be something that's easier to settle on?

• 52:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, how many teams do we think?

• 52:22Bill Simmons?

  Are stepping into the batter's box with their helmet on, doing the Nomar with their gloves, like getting ready to take a couple of swings here because to me it's the Rockets and the Spurs are the two I'm watching. Then everybody keeps telling us that Toronto is like that too, but I just, how are they getting, I don't know, even if they try to get somebody like Giannis, you're trading so much away to get Giannis. He's just basically in the same situation he's already in on the Bucks, right? I think that's a huge part of any Giannis trade is he's got to go to a team that's giving up assets, but is keeping enough of their team that it now makes sense for him to go to that team. You know what I mean? And that's where it's the Rockets and the Spurs are the two most likely for me because they can trade stuff and they can trade future picks,

• 53:06Bill Simmons?

  but still keep enough that they become really interesting with them. The Knicks would be the other team. I think for Giannis, which we talked about before, and that would involve the Bucks being like, cool, Karl-Anthony Towns. Where do we sign? And that would have to unfortunately be part of the trade, which is probably why it wouldn't happen. But my feeling is that Giannis stays and if they decide to do anything, they look at December, January, February, when maybe, you know, by the time we get to December, eight, eight teams hate their teams and seven other teams are like, are we doing anything? And you just, yeah, we might not have enough

• 53:47Bill Simmons?

  teams that feel that way now, you know? So unless to me, unless it's the Rockets, because if I'm the Spurs, like, let's talk this out. If you're the Spurs and you had to get a chance to get Giannis and you're basically giving away the number two pick and all this other stuff to put him with Wemby and like De'Aaron Fox, basically. And we're in the room with the owner, trying to walk him through whether we should do that or not. Would you tell him, yeah, do it? Because sometimes I'm a, the window is now, if you have a guy like Wemby, go for it, go for it. I think that number two, like, like people really love Harper. People really think he has a chance to be like

• 54:30Bill Simmons?

  a special offensive guard, you know? And, and when you think like Wemby's pretty young.

• 54:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Giannis is 31. He's been in the league since 2013. And I just wonder if the, are the timetables kind of staggered a little too much? Where's Wemby going to be a year from now versus five years from now? Would it be more fun to just kind of grow into the Wemby team versus to just press the button and go for it immediately? Whereas Houston, I think is in a different spot.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  It would be so much fun just to see how the Wemby Giannis piece fits together.

• 55:05Bill Simmons?

  Can you imagine? Imagine them playing Indiana right now in the finals. They're like, yeah, they're having trouble. Trouble driving to the paint against Wemby and Giannis.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Indiana is going to go to a zone here, I guess.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  They're unveiling their Tony Bradley, Thomas Bryant, Myles Turner lineup.

• 55:28Bill Simmons?

  Indiana is putting James Johnson again, hoping to go Giannis into a fight.

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. So would you tell them? Would you tell them slow play this? Or would you tell them it's Giannis? You gotta go get him?

• 55:45Speaker 01

  If they're sold on Harper, then you know, the contractual control and all that kind of stuff. But sometimes I think we make this really complicated. Like if you have a chance to get Giannis, and this is why I think these teams do this as often as they do. And maybe it's changing a bit with the financial restrictions. But again, we'd have to see this play out for multiple years before I think we have any kind of answer. But you've talked to enough of these guys that run these teams. Like you hope at one point in your life, you get a fucking player as special as Giannis on your roster.

• 56:13Bill Simmons?

  I thought you were going to say Wemby when you said that sentence up.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, whatever Wemby ends up being.

• 56:18Bill Simmons?

  You might end up with two of those guys at the exact same time.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Right. And the Spurs, I could say, we actually had like four of them, but.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  I don't think people can help themselves. I don't think people can say no when Giannis is available. Like to think of that actual call where it's like, okay, we would, we would do this. Now Spurs ownership feels like they've had so much success, certainly pretty buttoned up place.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe they don't, maybe they're the outlier. It's like, no, we kind of like the way we do things.

• 56:51Bill Simmons?

  So that would be the what would Sam Presti do? You'd be, it's the old what would Belichick do? Now it's what would Sam Presti do? Sam Presti would not trade for Giannis.

• 57:02Bill Simmons?

  I think he would rather build around the assets and build around Wemby and try to build a sustainable decade around a guy versus like going for the kill quick.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:12Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't mean it's right.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think you have to have a certain level of juice. You got to have some kind of equity in your city as a franchise and you have to have that kind of equity with ownership for you to be able to tell the owner who's ultimately saying yes or no to all this stuff. Like, we shouldn't do this. We shouldn't grab, and as expensive as Giannis is on the north side of 30, and some of the injuries, fine, but.

• 57:37Bill Simmons?

  Plus, Wemby's contract coming. Plus, you got to pay Fox next year. So now you have three max guys, which is death with the second apron system. That'd be the other reason not to do it.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  I mean, how would you handle it if you owned a team and they were like, hey, we just got the full Milwaukee, like, we can have the second or third best player in the world on our team?

• 57:56Bill Simmons?

  I would. So if I'm the Spurs owner, I would be absolutely obsessed with, with trying to figure out how good Harper can be. I would have a whole wing of my front office just crunching Harper tape, studying interviews, every piece of it, because if he has a chance to be either special or close to special, I think that changes the equation. This is not like the Lakers trading for Anthony Davis and the fourth pick in the draft and it's Deandre Hunter. And it's like, fine, take him. You know, this is, if this guy could be like a special running mate with Wemby and they'd be two years apart, basically, and you would have them just kind of ascending together. And it's, and I've heard this stuff

• 58:40Bill Simmons?

  about, well, that's would be weird with him and Fox. It's like, fine, trade Fox. Harper's special. Like, you'll have moves. It's not like you're stuck with whatever team. So, so it would, that would, would it become that? Could I get somebody really special with the second pick in a draft that everybody loves? If I feel like I could, what kind of timetable am I with Wemby? When do we think Wemby could be, um, somebody who could be in the finals as the best player in the series or one of the two best players? Is that two years away? Is it three years away? Giannis does, I mean, Giannis has a lot of games and some miles on him. That would be the other thing I would worry about with tall guys is they hit their early 30s. The history of that, I would do, be doing studies on that. Every seven foot

• 59:23Bill Simmons?

  and up guy from age like 30 went on, what happened to them?

• 59:28Bill Simmons?

  But if I'm Milwaukee, I'm, that's my dream trade, right? Can I get the number two pick? Can I get Devin Vassell and Harrison Barnes and some future picks? Like that's, that would enable me to do a real reset and build around somebody.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the thing that sucks and why?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  If you're Milwaukee, you're like, okay, we're getting their picks, but it just sucks to go through your own rebuild without your picks.

• 59:51Bill Simmons?

  Without your picks, but you think maybe we'll be good in a year. Maybe we'll take the hit for one year and then maybe it'll be okay after that.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Well, Dylan Harper's that good, then.

• 1:00:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. You tell me, how much crunching can be done?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've done a, done a bit of crunching here in the spare time. I, I think the biggest thing with him is that he, um, he does everything that you want out of NBA guys. Like the way at his size, that high ball screen and coming off of that. And just the, the palette of shit that he can do to you is really good. And I don't even think his shooting is as bad as the numbers are. Cause I think he's one of those guys that's like, hey, I'm this huge deal coming in. And some of these kids that just love pulling up and taking bad threes. It's like watching Steph's influence at pickup games. You'll see some of these higher profile, five star guys that have all the game and, you know, want to get their numbers and stuff.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  And his shot selection, his decisions on where he'll decide to pull up from, it's bad. His shooting isn't bad. His, when he pulls it, cause he's like, ah, fuck it, I'll pull it from here. But like the way, the way he gets going and just the way the NBA plays, it's, it runs its offense. Like you could just see it like, okay, this is why everybody likes this guy this much. Cause he's, he's six, four and a half. He's got this handle. Again, I think he's a better shooter than the numbers.

• 1:01:18Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to do, I wouldn't be surprised if.

• 1:01:22Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't be surprised if KD to the Spurs is done already and they just haven't announced it.

• 1:01:35Bill Simmons?

  Like it's basically they've, they've agreed on specifics and they'll just announce it the week of the draft. I'm not, don't aggregate that. I have no inside info. It just feels, this is, goes back to the honest thing. I think they're just going to trade for KD and it'll cost a lot less. They'll be able to be really competitive and maybe even go a couple of rounds in the playoffs, but they're also going to keep the number two pick and do it that way. Would be my prediction.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Do you like KD and San Antonio more than you do Minnesota?

• 1:02:05Bill Simmons?

  So what's Minnesota giving up in this scenario?

• 1:02:12Bill Simmons?

  Cause they're not allowed, with the second apron plus, they're not allowed to do sign and trades, right? They can't like sign Nas Reed and then trade him for KD. I thought there were restrictions against this stuff. I'm still trying to figure out. It's so punitive to be above. So I know they can trade two guys and get one back. They could patch stuff together. So Randall would have to be in it. So the Suns would have to be excited about Julius Randall, which I'm suspicious of, even though he had a mostly good playoffs.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he also has the player option too. So you'd have to figure out what you're doing there.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  Opt him in, but if I'm him, I'm opting out and trying to be a free agent.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 1:02:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's no free agents.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  But there's, who's, who's giving him 31 million?

• 1:02:55Bill Simmons?

  But you're, you're doing sign and trade stuff, I think at this point.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm just talking if he's just totally, I mean, all this stuff would be figured out ahead of time. Uh, I like your Spurs. I like your Spurs. Kind of like, hey, this is way cheaper. We keep the number two. You're probably going to fall in love with the guy.

• 1:03:13Bill Simmons?

  Vassell has to be in the trade. I think it's Vassell and Barnes with a future first and you call it a day. Durant's got a year left in his contract. He's 37. You're not getting a shitload for him at this point.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  You bring in Sohan and be like annoy Beal, so he retires.

• 1:03:34Bill Simmons?

  So you signed Thanasis as a free agent and you just have Thanasis just bulldozing into Beal during the practices?

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  But you just, your whole job this year, you're not going to get a lot of minutes, but we want Lou Dort, you're going to be Lou Dort against Beal every practice all season long, even in the layup line.

• 1:03:54Bill Simmons?

  You know, like 40 years ago, I remember reading a Sports Illustrated story, I think it was Chicago, they didn't like Reggie Theis, he was the star of the team and they just basically benched him and stopped playing him as a way to like humiliate him. And there was an article about it, I barely remember the details, and then they ended up trading him, I think to Sacramento. But it got so contentious, they just basically took his playing time away as like a way to be vindictive. And I wonder, is that the only move left for Phoenix? Like Beal just doesn't play. He just sits on the bench, just wastes away for two years. But I'm saying like, you just don't play him. Be like, we expect you to show up on time, suit up, and you just never play. And maybe you like bring him in when

• 1:04:36Bill Simmons?

  it's like a 40-point game, you bring him in for like the last two minutes. He has to like stretch and come out. Like it's all about basically getting a break him so he waves the no trade clause. It sounds like the makings of an FX series, Breaking Beal.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  From the mind that brought you, Parker Lewis can't lose.

• 1:04:57Bill Simmons?

  John Langgraff's really high on it. He loves this idea.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  There'd be something there, obviously.

• 1:05:03Bill Simmons?

  Jordan Peele's an EP, and Jordan Poole, Jordan Poole and Jordan Peele are EPs.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Sounds like somebody's working on an outline. You know how like, any place, anyone listening to this, you're like, you know who this person is because you've experienced it. But in the times where you have an issue with something at work and you're like, okay, but why, why am I having to do this, but this guy gets to do this? And then the person will just straight up look at you and go, because that guy's a huge pain in the ass. And if we don't do this, he's gonna be like, so you're just sitting there going, so you're telling me the lesson in this is that I need to be way more of a pain in the ass?

• 1:05:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  I have to be so like, you have to dread me being upset about something so much that I then end up getting my way. And that's not really the way it works. With Beal, man, I don't know if there's anybody that's more comfortable being like, you think you're gonna get to me?

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Do whatever you want.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 1:06:04Bill Simmons?

  It's like those stories they have now, the people torturing the Bitcoin guys to try to get their passwords. Beel, no trade clause. They just, they're just psychologically torturing them. It's just not breaking. It's like you're not getting it. Do you want to do an I wouldn't be surprised if dot, dot, dot?

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Sacramento Tracer Patrick Williams.

• 1:06:25Bill Simmons?

  Whoa, you, you went Indy.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  It was just, I don't know.

• 1:06:31Bill Simmons?

  You did Tribeca Film Festival on me.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Chris Ryan's outside with a beanie, smoking a cigarette. Going, I liked it.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Like, ah, I don't think you got it, dude. I don't think you got it, dude. It's good. No, watch it again. Yeah, no, there's some stuff going on. I don't think you caught.

• 1:06:53Bill Simmons?

  The Plas Brothers liked it.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  You didn't like Slack or dude?

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Then that's why you didn't get it.

• 1:07:02Bill Simmons?

  Patrick Williams. That's a good one.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Uh, I, yeah, I was just doing like a Chicago Sacramento joke. I have another one later, but I know you have a couple. So empty the barrel.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Young son.

• 1:07:13Bill Simmons?

  Giannis stays on the Bucks was one of mine.

• 1:07:17Bill Simmons?

  But we already covered that.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  You don't think, it felt like you were hot on the Knicks thing.

• 1:07:26Bill Simmons?

  If the Bucks would, I think, here's how it happens. Giannis goes to them and says, I've thought about it. I want to be traded to the Knicks. You owe this to me. I wanted the title in 2021.

• 1:07:41Bill Simmons?

  I've been a great Buck. I've been a great credit to the city. I've done everything I can do here. I would like to go to New York.

• 1:07:49Bill Simmons?

  And that's how it happens. And then it's like towns, bridges, three team trades and picks. And the Bucks can basically salvage, I don't know, 80 cents on the dollar. I think that's the course, but I think Giannis would have to do that. And I just don't think he's going to do it. I don't think he's wired to do that. I don't see him.

• 1:08:08Bill Simmons?

  I just don't see it. We've followed that guy since 2013. I feel like I have a pretty good hand on him. I just don't see it. I think he's more of a batting his eyelashes. Ah, maybe, but I don't see him demanding a trade. And I don't think they're going to trade him unless A, somebody makes some crazy fucking offer, or B, he goes in and says, it's time. You gotta trade me to Golden State. You gotta trade me to the Knicks. But they're gonna trade him to the team he wants to get, he wants to get traded to, I think would be my one bet. So I think they're gonna do right by him. And he'll be smart enough to be like, yeah, I'm not, you know, you don't have to give me away, but send me the right team. Here's, here's one I have for you. And it's heated up in the last week. So I'm probably

• 1:08:52Bill Simmons?

  like, two weeks late on this, because I felt this way for a while. That I, I feel like Garland's gonna be in play. And I think a lot of people in the league feel this way. And now in the last week, there's been some media people and there's been some buzz about it. There's a couple pieces to this, which is Cleveland, the second apron, the tax, like they're, they have some real money stuff. So if they trade Garland, they have to go down a little bit. I was looking at Brooklyn for him. And that's gonna be my, I wouldn't be surprised if dot, dot, dot team with Brooklyn. If it was Garland and Okoro, and Cam Johnson coming back to the Cavs with the number seven pick, and some other asset,

• 1:09:35Bill Simmons?

  because I think he's worth more than that. But there's something there. And then if you're Brooklyn, you're like, we have, we finally have our guy. This is one of the best 25 guys in the league. He's young. He's gonna be his own team. He can be all how, our Halliburton. We're gonna build an entire roster around everything that he's good at. And we're gonna try to basically do the Halliburton in Indiana, and this is our guy. And then if you're Cleveland, it's like, all right, we, we looked at that Mitchell Garland thing for a while. We can't, we can't pay Mitchell Garland and Mobley. We gotta pay two of the three. We get to retail, we get another shooter, we get a draft pick. And I don't know, there's something about that trade that makes sense to me. What are your thoughts?

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it makes sense and like at least Brooklyn feeling like it has something. Although it felt like they had something with the way Cam Thomas came out at the beginning of this year. I mean, he was, he was lighting it up. Even though he hasn't always been my favorite in the past, I just thought this version of him was better.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  I don't know, does, does Cam long-term make you think they wouldn't be like, hey, let's add a smaller, non-defensive guard next to him?

• 1:10:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, you get the seventh pick too, which I think could be a really good player in this draft.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  No, I'm talking about the Nets, like your backcourt's Garland and Cam Thomas.

• 1:10:59Bill Simmons?

  Is Cam Thomas on the perfect team as six man or am I crazy?

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think he would agree with you.

• 1:11:07Bill Simmons?

  It's the Colin Sexton problem, right?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:11:11Bill Simmons?

  If you're a six man, we're doing great.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, Sexton can get you buckets, but you just, you don't want him taking.

• 1:11:16Bill Simmons?

  23 minutes a game, score some points for us.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I, I know what you're saying here. It's like, okay, well Garland isn't perfect. Well, then who, I mean, he's young, he can shoot, can handle. We're talking about somebody who's gonna be flirting with a lot of all-star appearances. Prior to his career, although that Nets team probably wouldn't be very good, so maybe he doesn't make the team because the team isn't good, but.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  There's not a lot of homes for him because so many teams are already all in with whoever their point guard is. I was going through all the teams and because I was like, man, if Garland's available, there'd be a fucking line. And then you go through all the teams and teams that could actually trade and, and it, the list starts to shorten a little faster than you thought. Houston would be another one, right? Houston could, but that, but then that doesn't really help Cleveland from a, from a salary cap standpoint, because part of the deal would have to be, they'd have to cut salary in the trade, which is why Brooklyn's one of the only teams that can do that. So.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  I don't hate, I don't hate what you're coming up with at all. So like, I'm not doing this where you bring up something and then I go, oh, there's all the reasons why it doesn't work because it's way easier to do it that way. But it's, it's kind of like a face of the franchise thing, you know, a team that thought that they had it figured out to now having a roster that I'll have nights with them where I'm like, who the fuck is that? Hmm. And at least you would have a guy you think you can kind of.

• 1:12:39Bill Simmons?

  You can mold a team around him. I feel like, I don't know how good that team would be, but I think conceivably you can do it. Do you have another one?

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just don't see how the Sixers take, use that draft pick.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  It's on my list.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  I think it's a pretty obvious one. It's not based on anything. It's just, other than just common sense. Like maybe, maybe that front office goes, hey, look, with this team, we're never going to draft this high. And then if you fall in love with somebody, but. I think from a development standpoint, unless you're just so good at doing the development stuff when you're not playing in the games. Although with the way the injury history of that team, maybe there's more minutes available than I'm admitting to here. But like an Ace Bailey, just never, you know, never playing. Does that make a ton of sense?

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  Do you think there's any chance he goes third?

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Uh, I, no, not necessarily. Like.

• 1:13:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he goes third.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't really understand. Are you saying? You look at it as like.

• 1:13:45Bill Simmons?

  I think if Philly keeps that pick, I just think they would take Edge Cone. Cause he, he fits the model of the kind of guy that Daryl has been picking for 20 years. I just think he would take him.

• 1:13:57Bill Simmons?

  And maybe Trey Johnson would be the other one. I gotta say, just as, as you know, I, I dive in slowly and I do the YouTube thing and then I have all process. And by the time we get to the draft, I'm, I've done my whole YouTube deep dives and everybody. Trey Johnson gives great YouTube.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  Wow. First initial foray into the Trey Johnson YouTube universe. I was like, oh.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Have you done fears yet?

• 1:14:22Bill Simmons?

  No. Good, good YouTube?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's like when he's at his best and the fact that he like flag reclassified. So he's like a year younger than he than he should be with this stuff. When he's at his best with his ability to drive and just you can't stay in front of him. Like, I just don't think there's actually as many people that we say like, hey, you can't stay in front of this guy. Can't stay in front of this guy. But then there's also people like there's no help defense. It's not necessarily that hard to get around defenders. And then there's fears on this level of like when when he gets the angle on you, it's it's over.

• 1:15:01Bill Simmons?

  It's a good quality to center in on in the NBA and with football receivers. Like football receivers are just always wide open because they just get wide open all the time. I'm pretty sure they're going to work in the NFL. You know, for some reason, the Patriots decided not to take any of them for 15 years.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Do you want to hear something funny about Ace Bailey?

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  This has nothing to do with him necessarily, but what we were talking about before, Michael Porter Jr. Andrew Wiggins on ESPN for their draft coverage. Let me double check because it's Jeremy Wu.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  They did a high end and a low end.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Race Bailey. And the high end is Michael Porter Jr. The low end is Andrew Wiggins.

• 1:15:47Bill Simmons?

  Who had a better career than Michael Porter Jr.

• 1:15:51Bill Simmons?

  Andrew Wiggins is going to have 20,000 points. And he was the second best player to finalist team.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I. I was surprised like. Andrew Wiggins is the low end to Michael Porter Jr.'s high end.

• 1:16:07Bill Simmons?

  I would have flipped that.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Or is it because Michael Porter Jr. Although there's an argument to be made that both guys are like so dynamic athletically. And yet you were like.

• 1:16:16Bill Simmons?

  Should they have said Michael Porter Jr. On the right night?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  What if the ceiling.

• 1:16:21Bill Simmons?

  Need more Michael Porter Jr. Information?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  What if the ceiling was Aaron Wiggins?

• 1:16:27Bill Simmons?

  Aaron Wiggins on the right night.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  Low end, yeah. Like fourteen.

• 1:16:32Bill Simmons?

  Do you have any more? I wouldn't be surprised. Or should we take a break?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  No, we can take a break.

• 1:16:36Speaker 02

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• 1:18:06Speaker 02

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• 1:18:31Speaker 03

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• 1:18:43Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant. So my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

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• 1:19:30Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:19:36Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, quick NBA draft thing because we're getting close now. We're not far away. I'm going to give you the top eight. Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, Charlotte, Utah, Washington, New Orleans, Brooklyn.

• 1:20:12Bill Simmons?

  So if I told you one of those teams is trading their pick, you would say Philly? If you had to bet your money, one of those eight teams will trade their pick.

• 1:20:24Bill Simmons?

  Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, Charlotte, Utah, Washington, New Orleans, Brooklyn.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if I had to bet, I would bet on Philly. I don't know what Utah is going to do because they probably don't want another guard. But what are they supposed to do? Like pass on the better guard for a better positional fit for a team that isn't any good right now, anyway? So.

• 1:20:46Bill Simmons?

  I mentioned this to Zach the other night, but it was late and he was groggy. I'm on high alert with Utah. Austin took that job. He had a quote in a press conference that I thought. Kind of gave me one of those where he was just like, yeah, we're not tanking anymore. He just said it matter of factly. It's like, all right. And around the league, people seem to feel like marketing isn't not available.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  I would not be surprised if they got aggressive and said, okay, let's start coming up with something here. Like, let's, let's figure out how to piece two for one. And if the one isn't a star, at least it's somebody who raises. You know, who are the five guys that are getting the minutes closing basketball game? We have all these little pieces. Cool. But, you know, they're kind of like in that spike. Remember Orlando felt like they were always just the one pick behind in the lottery. From getting the guy that happened a bunch of years there.

• 1:21:45Bill Simmons?

  It was, it was God's way of getting back at them after the early 90s.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. It just felt like Utah. For a few years now, it's just like, oh, cool. We're picking here.

• 1:21:57Bill Simmons?

  I like that fifth pick for them now. They're going to get somebody good with that pick.

• 1:22:01Bill Simmons?

  It's like this NBA draft every year. Like, they might end up with the best guy in the entire draft, other than flag with the fifth pick. You just never know.

• 1:22:10Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to give you a list. I made this in descending order. So highest quality guide down of possibly available guys. And I'm going to redo the list that I've not sent to you.

• 1:22:23Bill Simmons?

  Just hit the buzzer if it's somebody that you do not think is even possibly available. All right. Giannis.

• 1:22:33Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Brown, Garland Towns, next level.

• 1:22:40Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Brown, didn't make you blink?

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Saying not available?

• 1:22:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm saying possibly available.

• 1:22:49Bill Simmons?

  I think I would qualify Jalen Brown, as much as I hate it, and I hope they don't trade him.

• 1:22:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he's untouchable with, with the situation that team's in right now, do you?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  No, not at all. So was I supposed to hit the buzzer then?

• 1:23:02Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Okay, that's why I was laying out. I don't have a buzzer just for the.

• 1:23:06Bill Simmons?

  Durant, marketing. That's the next level. Both of those guys we think are available. Okay, next group.

• 1:23:13Bill Simmons?

  Austin Reeves.

• 1:23:17Bill Simmons?

  Trey Murphy.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  I don't know why Trey Murphy would be available.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Because if you're New Orleans, you're in no man's land. You have, are you keeping Zion? I guess you are. You have the seventh pick. It's not in the top five. Could you use Trey Murphy in the seventh pick to get somebody awesome? I don't know. Could you try to do your version of the Mikal Bridges trade with Trey Murphy?

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  And just get a shitload of stuff. I don't know. I just, I have him written down and it, so you hit, you're hitting the buzzer on him.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  I thought he took that step that you're always like hoping for with a bunch of these guys, but man, he has all the game. He has more handle than he's allowed to show. They had to run so much more of the offense through him. He showed us that he has these skills and I'd wanna, I'd wanna see where this goes with him. I thought he was really like taking a big step this year, so I wouldn't be in a hurry to be moving on from him.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna take you a step further. That's the guy I think the Spurs should get.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Over Durant or Yanis?

• 1:24:24Bill Simmons?

  Spurs conciliary over Durant. Be like, are we getting Durant? He's 37. Let's give up some of the same stuff we're gonna give up for Durant, throw some more picks in it and actually try to get Murphy, who's, you know, hitting his mid twenties and try to get somebody who's actually more in our timeline, who's gonna give us a lot of the stuff we would have wanted anyway. And I also think last year, I think his value is lower than it should be because he didn't work out all last year because you know if he was getting the extension or not, right? Then he immediately gets hurt at the start of the season, didn't start to look like himself until the last part of the year. So you're kind of buying low weirdly, even though you and I both know he's good. So I don't, to me, that would be the Bridges guy this year. Be like, whoa, they gave up X first round picks for, for Murphy?

• 1:25:09Bill Simmons?

  It's like, yeah, that's what they did. Anyway, Jared Allen, Herb Jones, I have on that list.

• 1:25:17Bill Simmons?

  LaMelo?

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:25:24Bill Simmons?

  Is he possibly available?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  He has to be possibly available, doesn't he?

• 1:25:33Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. It's same thing with Atlanta with Trey Young, where there was like, he's not available.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but wasn't he available?

• 1:25:41Bill Simmons?

  Was he? Was he ever available? Did anybody ever come close to getting Trey Young?

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  No, but wasn't that like the Dejounte thing? It's like, hey, we'll see what the market is for either one of these guys. And

• 1:25:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  They end up doing the Dejounte deal to try to salvage that deal that did not work out.

• 1:25:58Bill Simmons?

  Zion?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Uh, he should be available. Um, you know, and I don't know what to make of the latest round of stuff that his name has caught up with here.

• 1:26:08Bill Simmons?

  Me neither.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  But, um, so I just never know what to do with it other than not have a definitive answer. Uh, speculating is something I don't know anything about other than what I've read, whatever else is read. However, having said that, I think they're scared to death that he's going to be like healthy and a star somewhere else. And I think the Anthony Davis thing with the Lakers, I think Chris Paul leaving there. I think there's even like a Baron Davis thing where it's, it's like, as soon as we move on from the guy, I don't think it's a smart way to do business. Cause I just would not want to do another season where I have to figure out, like, hey, if Zion's healthy all year is really good, it makes it the second round of the playoffs and has like comeback player of the year and all this shit. Good for him. We've, we've done it multiple years here. We are, we are held hostage by this guy. Um, because everything's in a holding pattern.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  And it's not like it's feels like, you know, everybody, every year, everybody comes out and they say the right stuff. He's like, oh, he's doing this. And it's way more about core now, which he understands. And it's like, oh, he has a chef, you know, like shut the fuck up.

• 1:27:10Bill Simmons?

  It's similar to C. Webb and Washington in the nineties.

• 1:27:15Bill Simmons?

  Where you kept talking yourself into him year after year and then finally they were like, fuck it, Wes Unseld just came in. It's like, fuck it. We're trading him for Mitch Richmond. I can't take it anymore. And if he ends up turning into the guy we think he is, it's just not going to be here. Then of course he goes to Sacramento and immediately becomes awesome.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  That's a good one. I mean, the Weber career is still one of the strangest things ever. I mean, to be taken, taken number one overall.

• 1:27:44Bill Simmons?

  He could have been, he could have just played next to Shaq in Orlando for 10 years and it would have been fascinating and it never happens. And then he ends up on that awesome Golden State team and he's only there for a year and bulldozes his way out because he's like Don Nelson and then ends up on this crap Washington team for years. And I don't think he acquitted himself that great in a bunch of different ways either, but then he goes to Sacramento and finally finds the right team. Took nine years from the, eight years from the final right team. I can't remember how many years. All right. All the other guys. It's funny though, when you lay out all the possibly available

• 1:28:21Bill Simmons?

  guys and you get to like, you know, Cam Johnson, Norm Powell, Pirtle, Drew Holiday, Porzingis, Daniel Gafford, Vucevic, DeRozan, Deandre Hunter, RJ Barrett. Like there's a lot of guys at like reasonable contracts. So maybe that's the case for it being like the craziest summer ever. There's a lot of guys in that like 20 to 25 million range that you could just see, you know, becoming musical chairs.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Because I saw one of the Toronto things and, you know, I don't know, it feels a little overstated. It's like, no, Masai really likes Giannis. Like, oh, he's the GM that likes Giannis? Oh, no shit.

• 1:29:04Bill Simmons?

  He's always liked him. Wanted to draft him.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  He's always liked him.

• 1:29:08Bill Simmons?

  2013 was what, really wanted him.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  I love it when it's a guy who's had the belt. At one point it was understood he's the best player in the world. And then you hear those things like that GM's always liked that guy. It's like, holy shit. No wonder he got that job. He's got a, he's got a real eye for, for the special ones. And then I saw the proposal and it's like, so now the Bucks are just the Toronto Raptors?

• 1:29:27Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  But what's the fucking point of that?

• 1:29:31Bill Simmons?

  There is no point.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  There isn't. Although those Raptors, man.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  They tried to tank and they were too, their spirit was too fierce. That team, look at how they closed the regular season. That team played hard.

• 1:29:47Bill Simmons?

  You were really focused on it.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I desperately wanted, I wanted to go under because Raptors fans were so fucking annoying. Shocker. Uh, when you and I did the preview about them in the summer.

• 1:29:59Bill Simmons?

  They did.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Right, and we were like, you guys think they're gonna be good?

• 1:30:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  And then they went over by like a half a game. Because at one point, it was like a lock under.

• 1:30:08Bill Simmons?

  Really trying for two straight butts.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Right, and then they got over cuz they kinda, they, they played much better. Like whenever you went in to face Toronto, it's like they're actually gonna play better than you are. Um, because they're just responding and these young dudes are out there balling the whole time. So then it was like this big victory lap. It was like, you know, people that get mad about the over under, unless we see like a number of 50 and we go, hey, I think they have our 35 win team. It's about the number. And on top of everything else, everything we said about the Raptors and our lack of like thinking that this team was gonna figure this whole thing out this year and be like a competitive team in the East, which is what some of the arguments that we were seeing. It's like, forget over, under 28, 27 and a half, whatever it was. You think they're gonna be good? So.

• 1:30:54Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't great.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  And it's expensive. It's an expensive team.

• 1:30:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, some of the fun stuff for this summer. Like how does Phoenix get out of this giant 20 foot hole they dug for themselves? I don't think they'll be able to, but they're gonna try. Can the Lakers either get a center or turn Reeves into a center? Right? If they feel like.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  They'll get a center, but.

• 1:31:19Bill Simmons?

  Is it gonna be a center that you could play in a game like with the speed and pace that we saw today?

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's gonna be funny cuz whoever they get, like everybody's gonna be like, awesome. Here in LA. Like it doesn't matter. There's a center right now.

• 1:31:37Bill Simmons?

  57 win ceiling right now.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  There's a center right now that Lakers fans can't stand or have never seen him play that much. And as soon as he's a Laker, I'm gonna be like, fucking look out, dude. Look out.

• 1:31:49Bill Simmons?

  We got Nick Richards? Um. New Orleans, one way or the other, I think is gonna be, that's the team where I'm like, you could tell me any direction and I would believe it.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know if it's different now post Griffin, but Griffin was about is like straightforward as ever at the close of last season. So not this one we just finished up.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  But remember, remember.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  He was talking about we gotta blow it up. Yeah.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  He basically is sitting there going, we can't come back like this. And it's like, all right, well, you know, I guess you made the Dejounte deal, but that wasn't really what we were thinking about, you know, what.

• 1:32:27Bill Simmons?

  He shouldn't have said that.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  But also speaks to like.

• 1:32:29Bill Simmons?

  That'd be like sitting at a poker table and going, I have to go in on a hand soon because I've been sitting here too long, not going in on any hands. The table's like, okay, good to know.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  But that might be ownership though. That very well could be the ownership thing that we always need to factor in. It's like, okay, cool. You're the, you're in charge of all this, but you're not. So you can say whatever you want and, and take trade calls and all this stuff, but like, if that, if Zion still feels like he's too important to that team and there's this fear of him being somewhere else. I don't know. Maybe they run it back again, but geez.

• 1:33:03Bill Simmons?

  Is Cleveland gonna toss away last year and say, let's run it back? Or are they actually going to do something? I'm watching that. What's SA do? What's San Antonio doing with their number two? What's Boston going to do to shed payroll? And then the only other one we didn't talk about, and I don't really know the answer. Is there a way for Denver to go up a level?

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:33:22Bill Simmons?

  Keeping, keeping Jokic, Murray, Gordon and Brown.

• 1:33:28Bill Simmons?

  They're kind of handicapped with the picks they can trade. They kind of have to hope somebody gets excited about Michael Porter Jr., but now you're taking somebody else's problem back. Or you're trying to split Porter into two guys. Other than that, not a lot of moves that are possible with the, with the salary cap works. And I don't know how they get better.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  Is this the best you've felt about the Nuggets at any point in the season today?

• 1:33:51Bill Simmons?

  Right now with the season over? It might be.

• 1:33:55Bill Simmons?

  It might be. I think they have to hope somebody gets excited about Porter with two years left on his deal.

• 1:34:02Bill Simmons?

  It's the only thing I can think of.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I had made the mistake of like talking about Porter Jr. And going like, why is ownership so enamored with this guy just because of where he played in school? And then the reality is he had spent more time with the connection of Missouri. So that was a mistake by me. But then when I thought about it more, it's like, okay, now explain to me why, though, you would be like, we can't trade that guy. We can't.

• 1:34:29Bill Simmons?

  We've passed that point.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if he's.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  Like, it feels like Porter, if you're trading him,

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  it's not for this other piece. It's like, holy shit. Like, I feel totally different now about Denver. It's probably some other guy that has baggage. I mean, this feels a bit like a Gilbert Arenas, Rashard Lewis thing.

• 1:34:50Bill Simmons?

  Right. I was just thinking that. It's like a Kuzma and Pat Connaughton for Michael Porter type of trade. Where you're just gonna, what was that trade? So they get two guys back?

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Although, there is the Jokic bump. Like, what does Kuzma look like running around next to Jokic?

• 1:35:09Bill Simmons?

  Doc's always like Porter.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Probably still expensive. So, not great.

• 1:35:14Bill Simmons?

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• 1:35:58Bill Simmons?

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• 1:36:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's all stuff we have looking at. Anything else you want to hit before we go?

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Tires, season two?

• 1:36:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let's hit that. So I didn't really like Tire season one.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:36:33Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't a huge fan. Watched a couple of episodes because our guy Shane was in it. And it just felt like they didn't know what the show was and they didn't know how to use Shane and I just, it didn't totally work for me. And then a couple of people in my life told me, you gotta check out Tire season two. They figured it out. I'm like, all right.

• 1:36:55Bill Simmons?

  They figured it out. The show, the show is excellent. I loved it. I love season two. I did not like season one. I love season two and you liked it too.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  I love season two. I, because it really feels like it, the show's going for it.

• 1:37:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  In a way where I don't know. I mean, maybe it's because Gillis is this much more famous a year later.

• 1:37:18Bill Simmons?

  Or comfortable. It seems like he's better on the show too. Like they know how to use him now, correct?

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think I like.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Well, his characters will, but it's Steve Gerben.

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if they call him like, I was watching his thing with Seth Meyers. So Shane is like sitting next to Steve. And Steve's like doing all of these things, but he's, he's not trying to be funny. They're just him being nervous. And it makes it that much fucking funnier.

• 1:37:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  And he's, he's like stumbling through something and Seth Meyers is like, what's going on with you? And he's like, oh, it's my first time. He's like, first time talking ever. And then he sees the thing of water and didn't realize it was there. He got really excited. And what's so funny about it? And I, I think whenever you're thinking about how a TV show fits together, it's like, what's the chemistry going to be with all of these guys? And the joy that Gillis seems to get out of watching Steve. Be in the show like whatever the background is with these two dudes like and I'll see this stuff um with Gillis's podcast and they talk about Steve whether he's there or he's not there then they play these videos of him it's like their buddy that they just can't stop

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  fucking laughing at and they've captured that in a really great way on a TV show because there's so many people that would say that their dynamic would be oh we're really funny and it'd just be like you and us hanging out they've pulled off the rare success of our workplace as a show everybody's walking around thinking that saying that most everybody's wrong and look they're good great writers they're all pretty funny guys I mean I think Gillis is you know I'm I've been in the tank for him now for a bunch of years but they they have something here that I think is very hard to execute and uh watching them do interviews together and especially the Seth Meyers stuff like watching Gillis fucking like dying laughing at his buddy being late night TV and he's not laughing because he's

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  killing these one liners he's laughing because of who this dude is

• 1:39:21Bill Simmons?

  Right thoroughly enjoys them

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah right right

• 1:39:24Bill Simmons?

  So sometimes this will happen where they don't totally figure out the show and how everybody works together for a year like Parks and Rec was like one of the most famous examples of that like they didn't really get the show going until season two this one just feels like they recalibrated how much Shane should be in it and they basically increased his usage rate I think they looked at uh his stats from season one and they're like wow he had the fourth highest usage rate on our cast we gotta every five minutes can just Shane do something and uh they've unleashed him and some of it just feels like he's doing like leftover bits from his standup but in a good way where he's just doing these little

• 1:40:06Bill Simmons?

  little jags or like these little analogies that'll use but yeah I I fucking loved it I was laughing my ass off and I never laugh when I watch stuff like very rarely to the point that my daughter was upstairs and kept like what are you laughing at what's going on down here and I was like I don't know this tires really good make me laugh so anyway kudos to them

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  It's really good. It's really good. And there's just, again, Gillis kinda has that way with me now that Chappelle had. And, you know, some of the Will Ferrell stuffs that was just funny is like he would find a way or a phrasing. And then when they get their bonus checks at the beginning and Gillis is like, I'm gonna buy a gun. And it's just, it's just hilarious. It's so fucking funny. And I love that Thomas Hayden Church is his dad. And he shows up and that first scene and he's trying to get Gillis to hit on the waitress and then she walks away and Thomas Hayden Church is like, you look ripped.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  And he's like, I she heard that. He's like, of course she heard it. You said it so loud. He's like, do you think she's gonna forget what I look like? Just walking away. So like having Gillis's dad be this guy that's actually like pretty successful. You know, there's just adding more and more layers to the whole thing, which is what most.

• 1:41:19Bill Simmons?

  Vince Vaughn two is another one where they're, they're just smartly bringing people into the universe quickly and then getting them out.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Right. Goose making an appearance. I think it's really, really fucking funny.

• 1:41:31Bill Simmons?

  And his love interest this season. That was one that shouldn't have worked and they had like great chemistry and it was super funny every time they were in a scene. It's really good. I was also surprised it was 12 episodes. Cause usually, you know, they usually these things are like eight. But, uh, they're like 12, 25 minute episodes, but huge thumbs up for me.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Uh, also, we know Gillis is an athlete.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  I gotta be honest with you. When I saw him work in the post.

• 1:42:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, when they were playing the horse?

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he, he had a little post move in there. I was like, holy shit. Like that's your, that's your nineties four. Like he's, you could just tell immediately and I'm an evaluator of basketball as you are, been doing this a long time.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  The way he sealed and turned to that strong shoulder. I'm like, fucking A. This guy. I wish we had seen more. That's my only critique of season two is I'd like to see more post game.

• 1:42:30Bill Simmons?

  Season three, maybe the, an intramural football game? Or some softball? Some tire softball, like a tires rival. That would be good. This show's gonna be on for a while.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause Shane's character, that guy in real life is playing full on tackle football with no insurance on the weekends in some men's league.

• 1:42:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was a pleasant surprise. I'm rarely pleasantly surprised anymore. Cause sometimes I'll dive into these like and my expectations are fully where they should be. But in this case, it's like, oh, they figured it out. This is great. I'm so glad I clicked on to this.

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  Anything else before we go? You got Tuesday, Thursday this week for you?

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, we actually do have Bucci. So you're home for hockey.

• 1:43:15Bill Simmons?

  Bucci's coming. Just tell him to do his thing again about McDavid with the no rings thing. Cause it was really good. I didn't do it justice.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess you didn't do a great job of that.

• 1:43:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause I'm still not. I did like a B minus job.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  No, I'm excited. I, I really like Bucci, man. So it's, uh, it's good to have him come on and I'll, I'll lay out quite a bit. In that one. Cause I just watching Captain in those first two nights. I was like, dude, is Captain good? And then I like looked up his stats. I was like, I know he's had a few stops. Something about him I really like.

• 1:43:51Bill Simmons?

  Did you see Murab last night?

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  I didn't. I didn't. Had a big dinner last night.

• 1:43:57Bill Simmons?

  That's it for O'Malley.

• 1:44:01Bill Simmons?

  Another UFC, another UFC superstar has come and gone.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  So what? He had lost to the guy who kissed him on the back of the head, right?

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  We lost to Murab twice.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, that's Murab. Yeah. My bad. Yeah, I'm not super locked into the UFC right now. I don't know what's going on. Maybe I'm less hostile.

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  You took the Pereira loss hard.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:44:21Bill Simmons?

  You don't have a guy.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe because I'm in it, you know, like I'm training twice a week and it's like, I don't.

• 1:44:29Bill Simmons?

  What are you doing? Muay Thai?

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I can't, I can't like, maybe that's my, you know, I remember there was this 311 documentary that I watched. And they interviewed this guy who may not have had a mailing address. And they were like, what kind of music do you like? He's like, and he had a guitar, I think. And he was like, I don't like anyone.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Cause they're like, have you ever heard of 311? He's like, no, I don't listen to music. And you're like, you don't listen to music, but you have a guitar?

• 1:45:02Bill Simmons?

  Guitar?

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's like, I don't want anyone's style to influence me. I don't want anyone else. I don't want to listen to anyone else because then it's going to change what I'm able to do. So maybe that's why I'm not watching as much UFC. Who knows?

• 1:45:16Bill Simmons?

  Muay Thai, like, how, what's the level? Like, where do you need to get to? What are you learning? How have you gotten better?

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 1:45:27Bill Simmons?

  How many months have you been doing it?

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe two years, but I did it.

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  Two years.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  I did it when I was really young, but it wasn't like, you know, I'd get wrapped up like a fucking pretzel. I was a very big kid, pretty skinny, Bill. And then, um, you know, I, I'd started working with a coach. So it's usually like a few different coaches that come down and then, um, you know, you learn moves. You try to get your cardio going. I love learning moves. I love new moves. And then you spar and, you know, every one of the coaches could kill me in two seconds if he wanted to. But it's sometimes harder sparring. Sometimes it's a lot of light sparring. And then sometimes we'll see like, we had a big thing that we were working towards is like, let's see if I can last 10 rounds. You know, I think we went three minute rounds.

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  We went three minute rounds, one minute in between and I had no idea. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to make it. And I, and I did, I probably wouldn't tell the story if I didn't. Oh yeah. I probably would tell the story if I didn't. Cause there was another time where he was like, I'm just going to punch you as many times as I can to see if you quit. And I was like, oh, I'm not going to quit. And then I, I'd quit in like two minutes. I just couldn't fucking get this guy off of me. So it sucked.

• 1:46:36Bill Simmons?

  Where did he punch you?

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  Everywhere, but not like, you know, he's not like taking full shots.

• 1:46:42Bill Simmons?

  The headgear thing, right?

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  I've got a mouthpiece in, I've got headgear and, you know, you've got the shin pads and stuff and, um, you know, he wasn't like, he wasn't trying to kill me. He was trying to see if he could get me to like, get so flustered. But I had to just say, timeout, timeout.

• 1:47:01Bill Simmons?

  That's what OKC was doing in Indiana today.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Perfect bookend.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's, um, it's really just, it's a great exercise, uh, except for the days where I think like, I have a torn MCL. The calf tear wasn't a fun day. That hurt a lot. Um, and I'm not like getting clocked, clocked, you know, if I went up to like a gym in LA with like guys that really do this or train to be fighters, I get fucking killed. So, you know, I'm not even, it's more like a workout that I like.

• 1:47:31Bill Simmons?

  We have working girl on the rewatchables tomorrow night. I don't know if you've seen it. Uh, Sigourney Weaver, Melanie Griffith, Harrison.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  I remember it, but that's not a rewatchable for me.

• 1:47:43Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty good.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Who's voting on this?

• 1:47:45Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty, it's, it's a pretty beloved movie. There's a lot of excitement for it.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  You sent me the to do list. You let me pick a couple, right?

• 1:47:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're gonna come on soon. We don't have to say what it is, but we did pick a movie.

• 1:47:59Bill Simmons?

  Should be good. I think Van's gonna be the third, seems like.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Soul Man?

• 1:48:05Bill Simmons?

  No, I don't think it's gonna be Soul Man. I don't know if Soul Man is available on any, uh, any streaming platforms. That's my new pet peeve of all time are these movies that are just not available anywhere. Where we have all these streaming platforms, plus YouTube, plus Pluto and Tubi, all these things. I don't understand how movies can disappear. I should be able to queue up Eddie and the Cruisers or Kiss of Death. And be able to do rewatchables. Kiss of Death only came out 30 years ago. It's got major stars in it. How, how is it just gone?

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  You can't find Kiss of Death anywhere.

• 1:48:40Bill Simmons?

  Gone.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  How to watch Kiss of Death?

• 1:48:43Bill Simmons?

  No, it's, you're not gonna find it. Don't, don't, I do this once a week because I'm waiting for it to come back. So CR and I can, can do Kiss of Death and it's just not available. There's like some YouTube version of it where it's flipped. And it's got like weird subtitles and it's just, the visuals are way off. It's not available. Nick Cage, one of his great movies, just gone. Who knows what happens?

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  I had it on, uh, cause when I worked at the music shop back in high school, uh, upstairs was a video rental place. So they used to just like be cleaning them out and every now and then they'd be like, do you want any? And so I took-

• 1:49:17Bill Simmons?

  You grabbed Kiss to Death?

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I took a box of like 40 movies back up to campus. Uh, I think it was my sophomore year because I would like work over Christmas break or whatever. Pick up some hours, you know, it goes-

• 1:49:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  And I had, I was like the go to guy, but people were just shocked. They're like, who the fuck would put together this kind of movie collection? It's like, no one, no one did it.

• 1:49:36Bill Simmons?

  These were all free.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  They were free and dudes watch movies. And so I had the air up there, which is probably not on their watch list with Kevin Bacon. And the number of times I watched that movie, because you just throw it in to fall asleep. I watched, I watched the first half of that movie, probably more than any single human on the face of the planet. Like you ever think-

• 1:49:55Bill Simmons?

  You like Kevin Bacon?

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Definitely watched it more than him. It's a bit like the movie tie thing. Why does he have to watch the US? I mean, he's living it, right? He, he knows what it was like on those shooting days. So I don't know. I like to think about that, just as an aside, what have I done more than any person in the world? What do you think? Do you get any like ones you wonder? Well, for me, it could be watching the air up there.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  It's not great. I'll admit it. It's not like you wouldn't introduce me as my buddy Ryan. He's watched the air up there, or at least the first half more than any other person.

• 1:50:30Bill Simmons?

  This would be a good podcast. The movie you've watched, you feel like you've watched the most more than all other humans. I think mine's 48 hours.

• 1:50:42Bill Simmons?

  If it's on cable, I, I just get, I'm like, fine. We're about, we're about to hang out outside the garage overnight. Ed is going to take a nap in the backseat. I'll, I'm in for another half hour here.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Do you think anyone's written more words about 90210 than you?

• 1:51:00Bill Simmons?

  Probably, yeah, probably like recappers. I think I wrote, I think, I think I did probably the most Karate Kid stuff. Feel like I had that corner.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  No, who's talked about Heat more than you?

• 1:51:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, CR's in on that too, though.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  Did the studio? Sure, okay, but do you think the studio spent more time discussing the movie Heat? Whether it was to buy the script, then during production, casting, all the stuff that goes into it?

• 1:51:27Bill Simmons?

  Then CR and I have spent talking about it?

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  I don't think that's close. I think you beat the studio. So who else is there?

• 1:51:34Bill Simmons?

  There's another movie that we've spent a lot of time talking about that we've, we've done on the rewatchables already, but I actually like it more even than when we did it on the rewatchables is the Miami Vice 2006 movie with Colin Farrell. That's like its own fan club at this point, because that movie gets better every single year and I have no idea why. It's one of the few movies that has improved in quality each year. Now 2025, I think it's the best I've ever felt about it. I mean, you can't say that about a lot of movies where each year that passes, you feel better about the movie. That I think that's number one for me.

• 1:52:12Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if you watched it recently.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  I haven't. I was trying to figure out.

• 1:52:16Bill Simmons?

  You're kind of no selling me.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  I know. I'm sorry. I wanted to look up the Rotten Tomatoes for the air up there, so I wasn't being.

• 1:52:23Bill Simmons?

  What was it?

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  I know, but I wasn't being a very good co-host. That's on, I blame myself.

• 1:52:26Bill Simmons?

  I knew you were looking up something.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  You get, you hate when I look up stuff on the pod. Every now and then when you start throwing around second apron shit, I'm like, let me, let me make sure. But it's lost cause and then I get a text from Bobby Marks like the next day going, here's why that wouldn't work.

• 1:52:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Bobby Marks. I think he's just made it less fun for the rest of us because he's so on it in every single aspect of the cap. We can't compete.

• 1:52:50Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  It's it's made me think about like getting back to understanding all of it again, because

• 1:52:55Bill Simmons?

  But even if you tried to do it, you would never be close to the level he's already at.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:53:00Bill Simmons?

  It's daunting.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  No, no, it is very daunting. And I think the problem is, we could always default to like third team in it. Like, that was my favorite move. I know you loved it, too. Like, what does that work? You'd be like, hey, third team it, dude. There's somebody there. And now it's like, you guys can't third team it the way you used to, buddy.

• 1:53:17Bill Simmons?

  Bobby Marks just comes in like Will Hunting. And we're like the professor, and he should say, you know how fucking easy this is for me?

• 1:53:25Bill Simmons?

  It's a fucking joke. That's what this is. You're third team in it? Fuck you.

• 1:53:33Bill Simmons?

  It is amazing. The team, the team gets knocked out. Bobby Marks has a tweet with this elaborate snapshot of their entire cap situation for the summer that has all these different categories, just like, Uncle, I feel stupid even talking about it now. He's really good.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he's he's sent me a couple cleanups where he was like, hey, the thing you guys are talking about, it can't happen. We're like, fucking, I don't know that I care anymore, Bobby. I used to care.

• 1:54:00Bill Simmons?

  You ruined it.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  I used to care, and now I don't know that I do. Because I know when we're I mean, I whenever I go on the trade machine now, it never works. It never works.

• 1:54:10Bill Simmons?

  Favor.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  Will you give the Miami Vice movie, just give it a, give it a whirl?

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  Nobody loves Colin Farrell.

• 1:54:19Bill Simmons?

  Just give it a test drive. It's been a while. Just give it a test drive. Just trust me.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  I didn't even give it a test. I didn't even look at it. I wouldn't have watched that movie. That's not my kind of movie.

• 1:54:28Bill Simmons?

  No, give it a test drive. All right, we're gonna say goodbye to our audience on YouTube. We're gonna thank Gahal and Eduardo. I'm gonna remind people, rewatchables coming with with Working Girl on Monday night. Rosella did not approve of that choice, but Rosella will be on at some point pretty soon on the rewatchables. And then Rosella has Tuesday, Thursday podcasts, and we'll see how long the finals goes. Good to see you, Rosella.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:54:52Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:55:07Bill Simmons?

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• 1:55:52Bill Simmons?

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• 1:56:36Bill Simmons?

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