An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine of SiriusXM NBA Radio to discuss myriad NBA topics, including a down Embiid/76ers year, the 2025 All-Star rosters (2:34), potential Jimmy Butler destinations, playoff contenders (25:43), De'Aaron Fox's Spurs ambitions, the state of the Phoenix Suns (50:03), an NBA lightning round (1:20:13), and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, more NBA. That's right. You're not going to bully me away from talking NBA. I'm going to do it on this podcast next. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation.

• 0:46Bill Simmons?

  That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Before Sunrise, a 90's classic. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have our friends at FanDuel, who every Friday, 30 on 30 is happening. We have a 30 on 30 Profit Boost token on Fridays, where you can boost any 30-plus point scorer or 30 on 30 special bet on this Friday's slate on FanDuel.

• 1:31Bill Simmons?

  You know it, you know why this is good for this week? Because we have the All-Star snubs. We have people playing who didn't make the All-Star team, who then try to take it out on whoever their next game is. Like Philadelphia playing Denver, Tyrese Maxey, ideal candidate. Toronto versus Chicago, Zach Levine, he didn't make it. He's probably mad about it. Just try to match the anger and the resentment of the snub with the game, and you're good. Be sure to claim the PBT and place your 30 on 30 bet for Friday. Just look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app. You know what else you can look for?

• 2:10Bill Simmons?

  We did that trade by column podcast with Brusilo on Tuesday where we hashed out the final list. I got his help. I finally settled on the top 85. And then we ran it on the ringer.com today and I wrote an intro for it. The fingers actually kind of worked. It's like 1,200, 1,200 words, but that's like 20,000 words for me. I mean, I can barely type. But anyway, I wrote an intro. I had fun. And then we laid out the whole list. It's got stats. It's got the money, all that stuff. So, very excited about that. You can go read me on the ringer.com. Yeah, you can read me. Remember those days? Coming up,

• 2:51Bill Simmons?

  Justin Terminy and Eddie Johnson, who I call into their show all the time on Sirius and they owed me one. So they are coming on. We're gonna talk basketball and it's next. First, our friends from Pro J.

• 3:23Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this late Thursday afternoon. I go on their show all the time, all the time. And they owed me. So they're coming on. Eddie Johnson, Justin Terminy. You can hear them on Sirius NBA every afternoon. And we're really here to talk about Eddie's finals pick, which was Minnesota versus Philadelphia before the season. I looked it up. That finals pick is three games under 500, Eddie. Like, if it can't get over 500, do you just retire at the end of the year? Like, what's your plan?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Well, my plan is I think Philadelphia is learning how to win without the best, the best center in the NBA. I think, I think they're learning to win without the best center in the NBA. One of the, one of the best small forwards in the NBA, he's been injured, Paul George. And if they're learning to win without them two, and those two come back, and they're in the play-in, I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago. Yeah.

• 4:26Bill Simmons?

  Justin, any comments on that one?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Well, Bill, this is, uh, this is what I deal with every single day and I say a lot of stupid things and I still, uh, look like I'm, I'm rather intelligent because of, uh, things like this from Eddie. I mean, how many things did he get wrong there? Paul George, one of the best small forwards in the NBA, yeah, like seven years ago. Uh, Joel Embiid, the best center in the NBA? Yeah, maybe if you took out, what, uh, Karl-Anthony Towns, Joker, uh, if you took out Wemba Yama, if you took out Anthony Davis, maybe he's got a point. And Miami of a couple of years ago? Great point, Eddie. I, I think Cleveland, Boston and New York are shaking in their boots.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  That's amazing. When Embiid was basically the MVP two years ago and he got injured. And so you're basically judging Embiid based on an injury and saying that those guys are better than him. I'll give you Jokic. I mean, those are the two top players, but anybody else you're putting above Embiid, you're basically using the excuse that he's injured and saying he's not good anymore. So you can go kick rocks.

• 5:26Bill Simmons?

  Are you in the matrix where Joel Embiid plays basketball games? Because we're, we're living here on planet earth when he's in street clothes every game.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Well, I've seen, well, I think they're doing the right thing with him right now, Bill. I think to sit him out, make, let him get a hundred percent healthy. I think he's been trying to come back and he hasn't been a hundred percent healthy. I don't think he started the season a hundred percent healthy and he's paid a price. And I think what they're doing right now is the right thing. Sit him out. And guess what? If he can't play the rest of the year, I wouldn't play him. And I've said that on our show. Uh, and then that's when you have to suffer the consequences of having to wait another year. But for me, I think he needs to get a hundred percent. Like some guys can get 90, he can't. He's gotta be a hundred. And I think that's what they're doing with him right now.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Bill, when's the last time, I would say this too, when's the last time, Bill, that a guy that was seven feet tall was having issues with his feet, was having issues with his knees, all of a sudden he ended up improving, right? And they're getting better as he's aged.

• 6:23Bill Simmons?

  In his thirties.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. I can't, I can't think of one. And like some Eddie and I agree on is, I think, I think Embiid loves to play, right? Uh, and there's some stars that maybe don't love to play. We've had that debate with Jimmy Butler, who's like, I don't take. The regular season seriously till after the All-Star game. He's always missing games like Eddie and I agree. He probably doesn't like playing the game that much. Embiid, I think, likes playing, but does Embiid like putting in the work that is required to play to stay in shape in the offseason? And I think that's on him. So you can't criticize him for being hurt all the time and having a bad body. But you can get on his case for not putting the work in in the offseason in order to condition himself appropriately.

• 7:01Bill Simmons?

  I agree with Justin, which won't be the last time in this podcast. Sorry, Eddie.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I was double teamed a lot in high school and college, so it doesn't matter. And at times in the NBA. So I can handle it. I'm fine. I guarantee you I won't throw the ball away like some guy.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Unlike Devin Booker, you're not going to complain about being double teamed. I start to lift the pot here.

• 7:19Bill Simmons?

  You mean not All-Star Devin Booker. Embiid, a lot of wear and tear. Bad injury history of big men over seven feet who hit their 30s and have been in the automobile shop a lot, shall we say. So I think if I'm Philly, I'm just terrified. One of the things I put up a trade value list today where I ranked the the best trade assets in the league and we did, I had 85 this year. And I had Embiid number 54 on the list. And a couple of people reached out to me in NBA circles and were like, you could have put him 254th. Nobody is trading for him in that contract. I don't, I'm not positive. I feel like it's gotten to that point, but Justin, do you feel like?

• 8:00Bill Simmons?

  Is he, is he even tradable at this point? Or is it just like, we have no idea what to expect with this dude anymore?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was talking about this the other day with Ryan McDonough, the former GM of the Suns, and he called it the worst contract in the sport. So, you know, he's thinking along the lines of you that nobody would deal for the guy. And I was like talking about it on the show with, with Sam Mitchell. He was filling in for Eddie here today. And we brought up like Jared Allen. I mean, you're in position to win a championship right now in Cleveland. You think Cleveland's doing anything with Joel Embiid if it was like for Jared Allen? No, they're going to stay with Jared Allen, even though he's nowhere as talented as, as Joel Embiid. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I think they're in a spot where who wants to be paying this guy 60 plus million dollars in 2029, when he's already got bad knees four years prior to that.

• 8:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm I'm on that line, Eddie, but you you probably would bet on the talent.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Well, I would look at it more like this, and I've said it. I said that these injured sit out and don't play. But if you all are telling me that a team worked out Joel Embiid past his injury, and you all know that each team has his own ego. They always have. They think their trainers can get a guy right.

• 9:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Both of you all are telling me that if Joel Embiid went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him. Are you all crazy?

• 9:19Speaker 02

  For 60 million plus dollars? I mean, didn't the Lakers turn down Bill Walton in the 80s?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Teams out there right now, it's teams out there right now. If they worked him out and they saw that he was healthy, they trade for him in a heartbeat.

• 9:35Bill Simmons?

  So I so now I went from I agreed with everything you said, Justin. I also agree with Eddie. There's always a sucker out there who's going to talk themselves into it. We see it over and over again. I I never would have thought the Clippers were going to give Kawhi an extension. After he just kept missing the playoffs. They're like, here, take this. Like, we see it over. I never thought Zion would be able to get any sort of a multi-year or anything, and he did.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. No, Bill, you're right.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  The Suns can make a trade under the second apron. Yeah, people didn't think that. Some things can happen.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  And you're right. There there is always a sucker, and Phoenix probably would be the sucker, the way that they're going out.

• 10:12Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that's a fair comment, Eddie.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  There you go. There's the sucker.

• 10:15Bill Simmons?

  Phoenix is the sucker at the poker table that all the other poker players are trying to keep at the table. No, no, stay two more hours.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  I'll go a step further. If the Boston Celtics worked him out and thought he was healthy, they'd trade for him in a heartbeat.

• 10:30Bill Simmons?

  Do we not have a luxury tax anymore? I think the Celtics go in the other way.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Hey, maybe they'll give up Jalen. They're not going to give up Tatum. But they'd trade for him.

• 10:39Bill Simmons?

  I hope that.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  If they worked him out and saw he was healthy, they'd trade for him in a heartbeat. Without a doubt, they would. Yes, they would.

• 10:49Bill Simmons?

  If I had to make my they'd be crazy enough to trade for him list. I think Golden State would do it just because I think Golden State right now, it's not hail Mary time for Golden State, but they're like, it's third and 13, third and 15. And I think they just need to do anything. Phoenix is definitely, if Phoenix could turn Beal and Embiid, they would do that.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  No, we wouldn't, we wouldn't do that. We wouldn't do that. We wouldn't.

• 11:09Bill Simmons?

  What are you talking about?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  We wouldn't do that trade.

• 11:12Bill Simmons?

  You wouldn't trade Beal for Embiid?

• 11:14Speaker 02

  That one, I actually agree with.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  No, we wouldn't do it.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  For Bradley Beal?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  We wouldn't do it.

• 11:19Bill Simmons?

  Is, did something happen with Bradley Beal professionally that I, that I'm missing?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  We wouldn't do it. I'm just kidding, man. I'm just kidding.

• 11:28Bill Simmons?

  All right. Thank you. Um, speaking of the Phoenix Suns, the All-Star rosters came out today and I had surprisingly very few quibbles. I would get to my one quibble. But I did notice that the great Devin Booker, who we're on a lot of texts with Eddie where we, we have to hear about the, uh, the virtues of Devin Booker and how great he is, um, did not make the All-Star team.

• 11:50Bill Simmons?

  Your defense, Eddie?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  No, he did not. And I think he should have, it, look, put it this way. I think Norman Powell should have made it from the Clippers. Even on my pregame, pregame show for the Suns the other day, I didn't pick Devin. And it wasn't that he wasn't worthy. It was a number of players, uh, that were out there that should have made it. Kyrie, uh, obviously Norman Powell. Uh, you had guards out there that were worthy of being picked. Uh, and I felt record is just a nose. I always lean toward record.

• 12:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  And I thought, I thought Kyrie should have been the one picked. I do. I think based on what he's done without Luca, I think that's All-Star level. Even though James Harden is playing in a selfish brand of basketball and he's changed his game a lot and shooting what low 40s from the field.

• 12:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  I just don't see how he made it over Norman Powell and over Devin Booker. Like I thought one of those two with Kyrie, uh, to me, uh, you know, and obviously I had Jalen Williams in that group because I thought people would pick them, uh, should have made it. Uh, so, you know, look, I'm not, I'm not surprised that Devin didn't make it. He got off to a slow start this year. And the record is right in the middle of the pack of the West and so you're vulnerable when you're in that situation.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I actually, Bill, agree with Eddie on Norm Powell. I thought he should have made it and, you know, listen, Eddie says a lot of crazy things that are absolutely ridiculous. Something I said at the beginning of the season that I owe an apology is to the Clippers because I killed them, as did a lot of other people. It's worked out perfectly. And Norm Powell, like at the beginning of the season, said, you know, that it's addition by subtraction. Well, he's taking advantage of it. I think he should be an All-Star. And then on the Devin Booker front, like, you know, Eddie, I think, broke it down fairly right there. He probably didn't deserve to be there. But it is kind of a major knock on his legacy because this is a guy I feel like is talented enough where he should be there every single year. There's really no excuse

• 13:48Speaker 02

  for him not to make All-Star teams. And now it's two of the last three years where he hasn't made it and you look at a guy like Eddie and myself and you fight about Jason Tatum. Say what you want. Not only does he make the All-Star team every single year, he also makes first-team All-NBA every year. Then you have Devin Booker, who should be maybe in the same category as him or slightly behind, and he's missing out on stuff like this. I mean, that's a bad look, I think, for Devin Booker's resume.

• 14:14Bill Simmons?

  You know, so I go both ways, but first of all, I don't like the word snub with the All-Star game when we have a lot of good players. Right? If you go back 20 years, which I wrote about in the trade value intro today, like, we didn't have a crap load of talent in like 2007. So if you got snubbed from the All-Star game, you feel it. Now we have so many good players, like, the most surprising one was Kyrie, more surprising than Booker. I didn't like the thought of having two Suns All-Stars when they're a 500 team, but I think Kyrie, what he's done without Luka and the fact that he's just day-to-day, night-to-night, showing up, carrying them. I thought he should have made it. That was the biggest snub to me. I don't understand why we had all these centers.

• 14:54Bill Simmons?

  I have no idea why Shangoon, if you're gonna have four centers, how does Shangoon make it over Sabonis? But then Eddie, the other side of it is, I do like when they reward the guys on winning team and it's like, yeah, I get it. Houston should have an All-Star.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I've always said that. I've always said that.

• 15:10Bill Simmons?

  So Shinggu makes it over Sabonis. I get it. But I don't understand the Kyrie part, and I would have Kyrie overhearted.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Let me just say this about Kyrie real quick, Eddie, is like, don't forget who's voting for this stuff as well. How many times did Kyrie give coaches throughout the course of his career a hard time, bail on teams, you know, get coaches fired? So I wouldn't be shocked if, you know, some coaches look at that and they go, oh, well, Steve Nash gets fired because of the attitude issue. He gives Brad Stevens a really difficult time. You know, Ty Lou, just the different coaches that he's had run ins with. I think that kind of factors into some of this stuff as well.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot, I think a lot of stuff goes into it. I do. I think teams competing with one another, all of that. I think it does. When you just give the coaches to vote, you know, attitude can come into play. So I'm not shocked by any of that. For me, I think personally, you know, Devin is gonna, that should focus him in the second half of the season. So definitely a disappointment for him. I know he's not happy. And, and so being not happy, you would like to think that he's gonna just ramp himself up even more.

• 16:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's long memories with the voting. I think that's a really good point about Kyrie. I've actually, like Kyrie was one of my least favorite basketball players. I really appreciated the way he's turned his career around the last couple of years. You gotta hint it to him. I thought he acted like a pro last year. I thought he showed up and that's all we ever wanted from him.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  You know what? Really what it is, is now we're seeing what his teammates have been saying, but we didn't believe it.

• 16:45Bill Simmons?

  But he also wasn't showing. When you're not playing basketball, when you're, you're acting erratically and giving weird press conferences.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  But his teammates still loved him. Like, you didn't hear his teammates get on him. Like, so, so I think what we're seeing now is what the full, the full beauty of Kyrie, right? Without the stuff that was going on. Because his teammates in the locker room, man, you talk to, you listen or you watch. I mean, dude paying guys fines. Like, I mean, it's the stuff like that that he does that a lot of stars don't do.

• 17:21Bill Simmons?

  I I eighty percent agree, but even Kyrie last year was like, yeah, I acted like a jerk. There's some things I would take back like he admitted it.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I totally agree. He did. I got on him. I mean, I got on him totally during the COVID situation and all of that. But what I'm saying is the things that I've heard about him is he's a great teammate like and and so now we're able to see it and not worry about the other stuff.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wouldn't say it was all. Yeah, I wouldn't say that was all on the media. I mean, Jalen Brown gets along with him now. He didn't do that when he was in Boston. I thought one of the worst things that I saw from a teammate, and I think the worst thing on his resume is a game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals when he's hurt. And he's not sitting there supporting his teammates when he was claiming that he was a leader. That wasn't a good teammate. So, uh, yeah, people are speaking of him highly now. I don't think it's been that way all the time because Jalen Brown didn't get along with him in Boston. Marcus Smart had his run ins with him in Boston, as did other teammates.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Well, everybody has run ins. Come on, but I just think that was more team oriented attitude from Kyrie and his teammates. And that's why Jalen and that's why Jalen Brown is friends with him again because he understands that now. It wasn't personal with the players. It was more directed at the team, I believe.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  What you just said about Kyrie and the teammates made me think of Westbrook and how Westbrook's teammates always loved him. Lakers accepted. I don't know, you know, I, although I do think a lot of the Lakers had him, but obviously it didn't work out well at all, but the teammates always swore by Westbrook, even when there was stuff about.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  You know, him stat padding, him trying to grab all the free throw rebounds, all that stuff and all his teammates loved them.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And it's good to see those two guys.

• 19:00Bill Simmons?

  Did you play like with anybody like that? Where it's just like a beloved teammate guy?

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I mean, oh, what you mean that? Say it again now?

• 19:08Bill Simmons?

  Like a star that you played with who was like, just everybody was all in and loved them.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Charles was unbelievable. Uh, you say what you want about Charles and I know Scottie has something out there about Charles in regards to playing with him and all of that. But Scottie just can't, he can't, he can't admit and say that Charles wasn't a great dude, man. He's one of the best teammates I've ever had. And had him for a short period of time, but I've had some great teammates. I mean, Nate McMillan, Gary Payton was a great teammate, like.

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man. Like, you know, it's just, you know, he was brash, you know, he would say, but I love that about him, but no, he was a great teammate. And, and so there's a lot of guys out there that were, but they did never got the, you know, the respect or the admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. And, uh, but Charles, man, that dude, man, I'm telling you, he's one of the best teammates I've ever had.

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  So the worst teammate you've ever had is Justin?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Oh, that's fine.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I didn't have any bad teammates, worse teammates, but I'll, I'll tell you this, and he's not here anymore. And so.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  That's good. Let me crap on the guy.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  No, I've crapped on him when he was alive and I even crapped him to his face because he was just a surly guy. But Quentin Daley, like Quentin Daley was an unbelievable basketball player. He'd scored 15 points in eight minutes.

• 20:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  But he was just always in a bad mood. He was moody and it just bothered me. And he and I, we butted heads all the time in Seattle, man, when he was there. But he might have been the most surliest teammate I've ever been around, but you wanted him in the game because he could score quickly. And that was fascinating about him.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  On an unrelated note, by the way, Bill, he just surpassed Larry Bird as my favorite player in NBA history.

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  That he butted heads with.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:06Bill Simmons?

  For the East snubs, if you want to call them snubs, they took four guards, three forwards, really no center. And the one that jumped out to me was Maxey, but I also wouldn't have put him ahead of Garland, Dame, Hero or Cade. So I was, I was actually fine with the entire East team. The 12 guys they landed on, I thought were the 12 All-Stars. Do you have a counter?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  What about your guy, Jalen Brown? Now, I know it's hard to find another frontcourt guy, but I, I mean, I, here's why I think Jalen Brown's worthy is I actually do think like the year before, you gotta take that stuff into account, like reward winning from it. And I do that, you know, people don't agree with it. I think it factors into the MVP race. How many times can you vote James Harden the MVP when he falls flat in the postseason every year, then he comes back, he dominates the regular season. But, so I, I see like rewarding Jalen Brown for what he did last year. I don't think Jalen Brown's played in our All-Star level this year, do you?

• 22:01Bill Simmons?

  I 100% do not. And I gotta say, I was a little surprised he made it. But I also understand why they made it because of the, the, whatever the winning attitude was with how the selections happened this year. I think they wanted two cells. I think if you weren't watching game to game and just looking at the stats and, you know, the fact that he's been durable, I think, I think people like us that have watched a lot of the games, like, man, he hasn't played that well for a month.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Eddie and I have done like the stats on this and it's something, I don't have them in front of me, but if you go through like basketball reference and look at all the numbers amongst the eight rotation guys, meaning the five starters, plus Horford, plus Hauser, plus Peyton Pritchard, he's like dead last in a lot of the field goal percentages. He's dead last in like the three point percentages. He's dead last in all the advanced analytics. It's been a tough year. You just hope that it flips once you get postseason.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  But, but here's the thing, does it carry forward? Yes, it does. Dude was MVP of the conference finals, MVP of the finals.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  That's why I'm agreeing with you.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  He's making, yeah.

• 23:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm not, I'm not panicking.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  He's making the All-Star team. I mean, that's all, we've had some great players, didn't have great years. Uh, but he won a title last year. He's got those two accolades. It's gonna be hard to keep him off an All-Star team now.

• 23:16Bill Simmons?

  And well, the bigger thing is there was no guy that, oh my God, like, I think if Jalen Johnson had been healthy the whole year and was healthy now, I think he would have had a real chance.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think he would have given him a run, uh, for his money. I'm happy Garland made it. I think Cleveland deserved three on that. And, and I truly do. I think it was even between he and, and, you know, and Donovan Mitchell in my estimation. I'm happy for Mobley because he could have been an odd man out. Uh, so I'm happy for Cleveland.

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  I felt like he, Mobley had to make it.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:47Bill Simmons?

  Like, but to me, Mobley and Jaren Jackson were non-starters. They had to be in the team.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:51Bill Simmons?

  The two-way stuff they're doing on really good teams.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  And I, I feel good for Hero, uh, cause that's been a mess down there and I, you know, he's, he's on the trade market every year. Like, talk about like Miami and the way they treat their stars and all these guys are pointed, like Paul Pierce is pointing to like the way they treat Jimmy Butler. How about the way they treated Tyler Hero? Every single year he's on the trade market and they're just like putting him out. We'll trade you for Dame. We'll trade you for Donovan Mitchell. We'll trade you for, uh, for Kevin Durant. Uh, and I never viewed him as an All-Star and for him to make it, I think that's huge. So I feel good for him.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  It helps Miami too. It really helps Miami that Tyler Hero made it because it kind of justifies that why they changed their offense and kind of went away from Jimmy as much as they used to.

• 24:31Bill Simmons?

  Especially at crunch time, which I think was a thing with Jimmy. I, like, if you watch Miami, basically everything last three minutes was revolving around Hero and I don't, I don't know if Jimmy was a giant fan of it, but.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  And think about what that says about Bam. I don't even think anybody's looking at Bam and saying that he's a snobby, just hasn't been good this year at all.

• 24:49Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what, that's the big, I mean, that goes to the, you guys have talked about this a bunch, but the post Olympics, what happened to some of these guys? Why did it take so much out of them? Bam's the weirdest one because his offense just went sideways. We gotta take a break and then I want to talk about the Butler trades and the Fox trades and what we think is gonna happen.

• 25:10Bill Simmons?

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• 25:51Bill Simmons?

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• 26:35Bill Simmons?

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• 27:19Bill Simmons?

  When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com/Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. So we talked about Jimmy Butler before and it seems like Golden State, we're taping this, it's 6 o'clock Pacific time right now, Thursday. Seems like Golden State's gonna be the team if there's a move, unless there's some surprise out of nowhere team.

• 27:59Bill Simmons?

  And I was looking at possible trades and I, I think Wiggins has to be in it because there's gotta be some sort of fat salary and it's either Wiggins or Draymond. I just don't think they're gonna trade Draymond. He just, I, I just think that Steph, that Steph's guy, that's just like, he's, he's over here, you can't touch him. But it would have to be Wiggins. I think it has to be Schroder because he's an expiring. And then there's that Kaminga piece to it where Kaminga, if Golden State doesn't want to pay him, and it could potentially be Wiggins, Kaminga and Schroder. And maybe like whatever else, little small thing needs to come in. So there's two separate questions here. Is that a lot to give up for a guy who's been unhappy for a year?

• 28:43Bill Simmons?

  And then also, if you're Miami, you might actually be pretty good down the stretch. If you turn a guy who's not really playing at all into Wiggins, who's looked really good the last couple of weeks and, and most of the season, Kaminga coming off the bench and then Schroder at point guard?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  It's a lot. I, I just think it's a lot. I, I think Jonathan Kaminga could be the next Butler, who knows? I, I think he's just that good. I just think he's raw still. I think he, he sometimes gets out of character of what he is at this present moment, but-

• 29:13Bill Simmons?

  But would you pay him? Cause you're gonna have to pay him next summer. So what's he worth?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  I think he's that good, man. I do. I think from the, look, think about it, from how he's had to evolve as a player, like with Steph and Klay, you know, not, you're not taking shots early in the shot clock. You're not trying to dribble it up on the break and be creative. You couldn't do all of that. You can get a little bit of it done now because Klay's not there, but just based on what I've seen from him this year. I just don't think they want to give him up and and and if they do, I think it's gonna pay a price because Butler's what I mean, what three years, maybe four at the most left and you got a young player in Kaminga. I think Miami, if they could do that deal, they jump all over that.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  But what what's the point of keeping Kaminga if you're not going to play him or if you're going to yank him around like Steve Kerr's done? Like if he doesn't.

• 30:04Bill Simmons?

  Or if you're not gonna pay him.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, or if you're not gonna pay him. And then like the the flip side with Wiggins though is I wouldn't want Andrew Wiggins if I got to pay him $30 million this year. I got to pay him 30 next year. I got to pay him 30 after after that. If he picks up the option, like I'm not crazy about Andrew Wiggins because to me, he just like, you know, it's the same reputation he had. You know, when he came into the league, he just floats in and out of games outside of the 2022 title run. I mean, Steph doesn't have a number two. And that's the other thing is I like, I don't agree with what's going on, Bill, in Phoenix. But at least like, I don't think it's going to work. At least they picked a direction. Like, at least they know what they want to do. Golden State's like, all right, well, we want to be in with Kaminga for the future, but we want to be, you know, we want to compete

• 30:46Speaker 02

  right now with Steph. Like, either go all in or just blow the thing up and and start the rebuild. I don't agree with like.

• 30:52Bill Simmons?

  There's no blow up, though. They don't. Kerr is the only real trade asset they have. I, you know, I don't know what else, what the other move is. They almost got marketing. They almost got Paul George and they're probably like thanking their lucky stars. Neither of those trades happened because they would have given up everything.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  They're being fooled right now. I believe that's what it is. I think they beat Oklahoma City and then all of a sudden they think, oh, man, all we need to do is just add something. So they have a conundrum right now. And and the only reason they're going to keep winning games like that is because of the coaching of Steve Kerr, because of the greatness of Steph Curry. That's why. So they'll they'll beat good teams and you'll start to think, oh, okay, maybe, maybe we add somebody. I think it's a mistake. I do. I've said that. I think it's a mistake. I know Curry will never give in to being traded, but I just think it's a mistake. I think their run is over with this group. And, uh, you know, but again, I just think that they're gonna win some games, man. They're gonna beat some teams and you're gonna say, uh, maybe they can do it again because they did

• 31:51Speaker 01

  it a couple of years ago. So it's not like they don't reach back to something and say, we've done it before. And I think that's part of their problem.

• 31:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but the problem is in 2022, when they did it, the league was completely different. I just don't think the league was nearly as good. There was some injury luck with some teams that went sideways and they kind of snuck in. They rode Curry, who I think was at a slightly different point in his career too, in 22 versus now. I think that 22 team would not be able to do that in 25 with how deep the league is and how good it is.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 32:23Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, I'm torn on it because, Justin, you remember the, in the early 90s with the Celts? When we had the big three and the question was always, how long do we keep these guys? Well, we can't trade, we gotta keep these guys together. They won titles for us. And the Celts were able to rebuild on the fly a little bit with Reggie Lewis, who was a godsend, uh, Brian Shaw, D Brown, they had Ed Pinkney, and they had this cool, young old thing and it was pretty good. Like, they weren't gonna win the title, but they were in the mix. Like, they, you know, they had two really good seasons and then Bird and McHale's health just couldn't hold up. I don't even think the Warriors are close to that level, you know? So if I'm them, it's either a question of, do we owe this to Curry because we're never

• 33:08Bill Simmons?

  trading him? So if you feel, if you feel that way, then you gotta do the Butler deal and give up whatever and try to hope that you catch lightning in a bottle with him. Or you gotta think about trading Curry and I just don't think they're gonna do it.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Well, I got a question for you. I got a question for you, Bill.

• 33:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  So say if Golden State had two players in front of them to trade for, Derrick White or Devin Booker, who you think they want?

• 33:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, Devin Booker is a better basketball player.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Well, why you, why did, I saw something where you had Derrick White being a better trade chip.

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  No, I had Devin Booker in the top 20. He was not, you saw the wrong thing. See, this is, you get fooled by social media.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Well, I just wanted to, I'm telling you. Explain to me. Okay. All right.

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  I had Devin Booker in the top 20.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Of course. Now, back to your other point before Eddie gave you some bad information.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up.

• 33:58Bill Simmons?

  Fake, classic fake news from Eddie.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Muscle nose. Hold up, put the, put the camera back on Justin Termini. You, how dare you say that? The only reason I brought it up is because somebody told me that's what was said.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  That's not what I said. I told you where Devin Booker, no, I didn't. I didn't. I said he was behind Derrick White. I might as well have just said Bill's a massive moron.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  You said he was behind. You said you were behind a muscle nose.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Muscle nose.

• 34:23Bill Simmons?

  I had him number 16. I did have him behind Jalen Williams and Cade Cunningham. I did have him behind Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson. Think that's fair?

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Jalen Williams, really?

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Do your.

• 34:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, Jalen Williams on a rookie contract. Like, would you rather pay Jalen Williams 9 million a year? That's the whole point of a trade asset.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  So it's not about talent?

• 34:42Bill Simmons?

  No, it's about talent. It's about time of their career. It's about the salary. It's all those things. It's basically, you're telling me Phoenix wouldn't rather have Jalen Williams on a rookie contract than Devin Booker for 50 million a year? It would open up, it's, there's no way.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  It's the same exact thing between you and Eddie. Sirius thinks you're more talented, obviously, but you would cost them more money. So they settle for Eddie because it's, he's making a lot less money. Does that explain it well?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  What, what makes you think that you would be the host and he would be the analyst?

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not, because I'm, because I'm a lot cheaper. We're both cheaper.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  You, hey, hey, Bill, you see the ego on this crazed animal? Like, he putting you in the analyst seat.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Well, when you're, when you're an analyst in this tournament, you can have an ego.

• 35:29Bill Simmons?

  That's fine. It's the Waterboy Show. It's two Waterboys. Wait, I'm going to state really quick. Let's say Butler goes back there. Let's say they, let's say they get a 50 cents, 40 cents of the dollar. Let's say it's just Wiggins, Looney and Schroder and some protected pick, and that's a trade. Miami's like, please take him, give him away. And Butler flips the switch like he's done a couple of times this year to show everybody he still has it. Does that team intrigue you at all? Or is that just a

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Only because I don't think the West, like I, no, I, it intrigues me a little bit, but not necessarily just because they're great, just because who in the West is, is dominant. Like do you, how much faith do you have in Oklahoma City? As good as they are, we've never seen them win more than one playoff series. Shay Gildes Alexander is still like a young guy who as great as he is, hasn't really given us anything tremendous in the postseason. Is Shaq going to be healthy? Uh, you know, teams with size have beat them up. Dallas has their number. The Lakers, I think, you know, aren't as talented. They match up well. So, you know, anything is possible, but I think it's just because of the weakness of the Western Conference. I don't know what you guys think.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  No, I think the West is wide open. I do. Uh, you got your talent at the top, but I think anything can happen. Uh, so that's why I think the teams in the West are going to be trying to be aggressive in the following week before the trade deadline to see if they can, you know, get that key player.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  And Bill, you touched on this with Goldsberry a couple of weeks ago. I don't like, you know, this, this topic of like the West being better than the East. That is not the case this year. The Eastern Conference is better because the teams at the top are better. Boston, Cleveland, New York are three of the top four teams, I think, in the entire NBA. There's one in the Western Conference, OKC. So Cleveland, New York, Boston have to go through each other. OKC doesn't have to do that. East is tougher than the West.

• 37:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I look at it like ceilings, like your regular season ceiling versus your playoff ceiling. So I see a team like Houston and I, I'm really impressed by them. I like a young team, kind of, kind of a weird collection of assets. They barely have even one All-Star, but when you watch them, it makes sense together. I don't know if there's another gear for them. If they're playing the same team six, seven times in two weeks, I think they'd be, they'd get easy. When you, but when you think about like Boston, Cleveland, especially the Knicks. There's another level I feel like they can go. The question for me with OKC, because I think everybody's going to defend them the same way. They're just going to trap Shay. They're going to send two guys at them. They're going to put, they're going to make Jalen Williams and some

• 37:56Bill Simmons?

  of these other guys basically have the ball in big moments. A lot like how people are defending the Celtics. The, the smart teams of the Celtics are trapping, are trapping Jason at the top. They're sending two guys at them. They really want like Jalen Brown to decide the games now because he's not playing that well. And I just don't know if Jalen Williams can win four straight playoffs in a row for you. And how is Shay going to figure out, how do I be regular season Shay when I'm just seeing this constantly? So I think the West is open is my point.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Oklahoma, I think Oklahoma City is vulnerable because they're small. Even if they bring chat and they have Hardenstein, I still say they're small because they're going to play small ball. Even with those guys, they're going to rotate to small guys. And I just never see that really working in the finals. The Celtics people looked at them, they weren't small.

• 38:44Bill Simmons?

  No, we had length everywhere.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Jalen Brown looks like a mini Hercules. People see these dudes up close, they'll see how big they are. And so it's a different animal. But you brought up Houston. I'm telling, I don't think Houston's getting out of the West to the finals, but I would bet money that Boston wouldn't want to see them if they were on the other end of that. Because the one team I think matches up with them with physicality and a nastiness is Houston.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Plus, you saw Udoka the other day knows all the weaknesses. I mean, they're attacking Jalen Brown and he knows what Brown can do. He knows how to defend Tatum. And, you know, so that's another thing in that matchup.

• 39:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's the Clippers game, I think unfortunately was a bad game for the Celtics long-term because the Clippers coaching that game was so smart. They basically laid out the blueprint or reminded everybody the blueprint.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Ty Lou is unreal.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  What to do against the Celtics. And Van Gundy was amazing in that. Both of those guys. And now like Houston was basically doing a lot of the same stuff that the Clippers did in that game. And if you have big swings, you can protect the rim a little bit and you just keep blitzing Tatum and making everyone else beat you. It's. I basically what it's going to come down to is can Jalen Brown get back to where he was last year because last year we were arguing about one A one B with Tatum and Brown. It's that argument's over like it's one two and we need can Jalen get back to one B.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  He will. I think that I I honestly believe Bill, these guys aren't built to get deep and go repeat, repeat, repeat like it used to be, right? It's just something that the guys in the eighties and the nineties had, but these guys just don't have and it's not all all their fault. They make a ton of money, man. Even guys in the eighties and nineties, they had to push because they needed more money. Like they weren't even paid highly. Like so they had a reason to go for it every year. They they needed that playoff money. Like these guys don't need the playoff money. Like and so they have to be pushed. And I think what's

• 40:49Speaker 01

  going to happen with Boston is when it gets after April, I mean, not April, March, and it's they can see the end of it. We're going to see the Boston team that we saw last year. I I don't I think Jalen is going to wrap it up or Tatum is going to wrap it up because now they can see the end. So I am not down on Boston, haven't been all year. I've made excuses for them because and and think of that. I'm making excuses for teams you all love.

• 41:16Bill Simmons?

  I'm not, we're not down on them either. I'm just.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I agree. So.

• 41:20Bill Simmons?

  With concern.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  As far as the fatigue, I don't even want to hear that as an excuse because I was so anti, you know, all those guys going to the Olympics, then they had to do Abu Dhabi. So that's not like shocking to me that they're struggling, but I hated the fact they went to the Olympics. That's why I can't stand the Olympics. And then, and I know you love them, Bill. I hate them because I think, you know, I don't care.

• 41:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm a patriot, Justin. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I care about my country.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I care more about the Celtics or my NBA teams and Denver and Jokic doing well. But no, it drives me nuts. Like Philadelphia fans should be irate that Embiid's not playing.

• 41:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's true.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the the thing that calms me the most is like, what other team can give you what Porzingis is doing right now? So like as bad as other things are going, like I was at that game last night, Porzingis, you know, 34 points. I think he had 29 in the first half. If he's playing anything close to the level he's played at the last couple of weeks and stays healthy, to me, they're still easily.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Keyword, keyword healthy.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. That's for every team.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I mean, no, but I mean, for him, I'm saying.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  If he's healthy, they are a major problem. So for him, it's just staying healthy and how they use him.

• 42:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, what if I, what if I said this to you? The 2025 champion will come from the East.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  I can, I can push back a little bit on that because what I can say is, is what you all used to say about the West. It was top-heavy, they had a lot of talent, and so about time they got to the finals, they were tired.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  And so, I, I can say the same thing with the East right now. And those three teams at the top, and just say for instance, say, say for example, Philly gets healthy. Okay, and they win a first-round series, right? And all of a sudden, it's a problem.

• 43:02Bill Simmons?

  We're back in the matrix.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  It's a problem, I'm just making the point though.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  There's Keanu Reeves. Yeah, Eddie, don't say they win, just say, just say Philadelphia pushes Boston or Cleveland to like six games, when typically it would be a sweep in the first round, then you gotta go play.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Right, they only have to win a series, just they pushed them.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, say for example, they end up like, you know, playing the Celtics in the first round, like Boston plays Philadelphia. They gotta go six games when typically that's four or five. Then they gotta play New York, that goes six or seven. Then they gotta play Cleveland, six or seven. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City's cruising through the West, they're a little beat up, I mean, we've seen it.

• 43:37Bill Simmons?

  By the way, what you just laid out was the reason the Lakers won all those titles in the eighties, because they never had to play anybody. The East was just killing each other. And the Lakers are like, ah, we gotta play the Spurs in the Western Finals, oh no.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  They had to play some teams, stop, stop.

• 43:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh no.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  They didn't have to go through the Pistons or, you know, through the Sixers.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Because they were talented, they were, the Lakers were a talented team, they were a dominant team, just like the Bulls.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And so were the Celtics, but then they had a hard road to get there.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Just like the Bulls were a dominant team in the East, but it was teams that were good in the East.

• 44:07Bill Simmons?

  People, yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  It was teams that were good in the East when the Bulls were running through the East. Okay, it was teams that were good in the East when LeBron was running through the East. You always don't wanna give that, you don't wanna give them credit.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Oh my god. They were good in the Eastern Conference?

• 44:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's your worst point you've made.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it was teams that were good because what happened.

• 44:27Bill Simmons?

  That was a runway to the finals.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because he was dominant.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  It was more impressive that the Celtics in the eighties went to four consecutive finals than LeBron in the East. Eastern Conference going to eight in the two thousands.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Dominant.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  He was dominant.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  He was dominant. He dominated all those teams.

• 44:42Bill Simmons?

  Those eighties Lakers had two rivals, both of whom flamed out immediately. The eighty six Rockets, who were the absolute all time kryptonite team for them and that team implodes with drugs. And then the Mavs, that same era, Roy Tarpley stays healthy. And they actually have to go through those two teams that they, that, as you know, I hate the Lakers. The luck that they had in the eighties was unbelievable with the, with their opponents.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  How do you live in LA and you hate the Lakers? How do you live in LA and you hate?

• 45:14Bill Simmons?

  I've come to grips with it a while ago.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  That's amazing. I mean, you, you know.

• 45:18Bill Simmons?

  There's a lot to hate.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  It's like living in a 10,000 square foot house, but you hate the girl and she looked like a teen. I mean, really, I mean, come on.

• 45:28Bill Simmons?

  I would lean toward the east for, to produce our champion, but I'm also not tied to it for a bunch of reasons. One, all the stuff you laid out about how competitive it's going to be, but two, there's still some west teams. I'm not crossing off Denver at all. I know they've had a goofy year. I'm just not crossing them off yet because of how good yoga is. I'm just not.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  I'm not. I mean, I essentially, you know what, like I'm a little higher than I was on them a couple of weeks ago, but like everybody's making a, a big deal about Jamal Murray all of a sudden waking up. I mean, he's been better than he was at the beginning of the year.

• 45:59Bill Simmons?

  He's been definitely a hundred percent better. We talked about him a month ago on your show and I was terrified that.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  But he, yeah, but he's also not like a high level number two. He's playing okay.

• 46:08Bill Simmons?

  No, but he's playing better.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  He's playing better, but he still needs to be better. I mean, he's making a max contract.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  All right, Justin Turner, you say he's not a high level, but when they won the title, was he high level?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  Twenty seven a game.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  I thought he was better during that run than Kyrie was during the.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  He can become high level then.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Hopefully, but we haven't seen it for a couple of years.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Well, but we're seeing it now. And I think again, like I said, I think.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Not to a high level. He's been better, but he hasn't been great.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  But he's grown to it. He's got, he's got 30 plus games left. So my point is where he is right now and how he's trending, he's getting back to himself.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  I hope so.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  And Bill, I've never gotten off the bandwagon with Denver. He knows, Justin knows this. I, I'm not, I, they have too much talent. You, you all a couple of years ago said they had the best starting five in the basketball and they still got those same guys.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  No, they don't.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  They still got the starting.

• 47:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, they turned Brown. I Brown's actually probably better than Caldwell-Pope.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Playing Contagious.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter. They took away from the bench when they like people go like, oh, they got rid of

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Now you're going back to the bench.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Christian Brown's better. Well, Christian Brown has to go in the starting lineup, which takes somebody off their bench.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Justin, I hear what you say about the bench. I'm not arguing that. But Christian Brown is a better player than Contagious Caldwell-Pope. And he's showing it right now.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  That's fine, but he was on the bench. So now the bench is.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Their starting five is just the same five and better right now. The bench has to get better. I agree. But the starting five that won a title to the same guy.

• 47:43Bill Simmons?

  The league, the league is better.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  And not this version.

• 47:46Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I just think it's, it's so admirable for the, uh, the very small market Denver Nuggets to patch together this team when they have so many find it. Oh no, that's actually Denver's a big city. My bad.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  And, and they're owned by like a very.

• 47:58Bill Simmons?

  They're owned by guys married to the Walmart family and somehow they can't get like a ninth or 10th man.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  And they're trading three second round picks just to get rid of the contract they signed Reggie Jackson to. So now they have no assets to get better. So even if Jokic was whining like Anthony Davis or LeBron, they couldn't do anything about it because they have nothing to trade. So congratulations.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  All Jokic needs is to get to the finals and does not have to play against Karl-Anthony Towns who owns his lunch.

• 48:25Bill Simmons?

  Oh, stop it.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's wrong.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Owns his lunch. He can't even score on Cat. Cat locked him down twice.

• 48:33Bill Simmons?

  Now stop.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  He's locked him down twice.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Got a foul trouble. Took him out of the lineup.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  He had pedestrian numbers. Karl-Anthony Towns is locking him up.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Way to watch the game last night.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Locking him up.

• 48:44Bill Simmons?

  Can I ask you guys about one West team?

• 48:48Bill Simmons?

  Is it, I'm going to whisper this one. Clippers? Is there something there?

• 48:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a playoff team? If Kawhi, if Kawhi can actually start to look like they have an eye.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  I saw him the other day. I saw, I saw him the other day.

• 49:03Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  He did a few things in that game that made me say, hmm, if he's back to that. I mean, he pushed the ball up the court and I mean, he looked fast. Just laterally, like that's what I'm looking at. And they're afraid to play him and I get it. They took him out.

• 49:23Bill Simmons?

  Is that a 28 minute, 28 minute limit? And it's like 20 minutes you're out.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  They did. I was glad they did because you know, who knows, we might not have beat them the other night. But no, he looked good, man. That's all I'm gonna say. He looked, but he's done this before.

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  Cause Justin, they have Zubots who's turned into not an all-star center, but he was maybe in the borderline split list. Harden and Powell.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 49:47Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi, all these role players, and I think they have a top three coaching staff.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Exactly. You, you mentioned just about everything. They can defend with the best teams in the NBA. Ty Lou to me.

• 49:57Bill Simmons?

  Really smart.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  You want to say like Eric Spoelstra is the best head coach? All right. Well, Ty Lou's right on his heels. I think he's the second or third best head coach in the sport. So you're right there. Uh, I mean, a lot of us in the media are going to look like absolute morons if they make a deep run because we crushed them. Uh, but yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they made a run.

• 50:14Bill Simmons?

  See, Justin cares about that more than, I, we're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some stuff wrong. There was no sign, none, that the Clippers were going to be a possible playoff team slash contender.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  You were worried about Kawhi.

• 50:27Bill Simmons?

  It was Kawhi, but also they lost Paul George.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  Was important for them and they replaced him with a bunch of dudes and it's like, and then when you watch them, the team makes sense. Derek Jones is a really good add for them.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, he really is.

• 50:38Bill Simmons?

  You know, and then you think like Kawhi comes in, all he's doing is taking Batum's minutes and some Terrence Mann minutes. It's like, this is legit, even if he plays 25 minutes a game. Harden, I still feel like the right teams can take him out because he doesn't have the same burst that he did. Like if he's going against like a Houston or a Memphis, like teams with young, big wings that they can throw at him. I think it's hard for him to get his shots, but I, I'll tell you another thing that's, and I've talked about it before, but they have, Eddie, have you done a game at into it yet?

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:08Bill Simmons?

  They have a borderline home court advantage now, which is nuts. They never had anything before.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  They got off to a slow start, and I think it's just them getting familiar with their own court. But since then, they've been pretty good. I think they've only lost, what, they lost four games early, and they've only lost four games since. Uh, no, that is a tremendous advantage. That wall is ridiculous, man.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  I mean, you did, you did see LeBron air, you did see LeBron airball a free throw, I think with, uh, you know, the wall there, so.

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  Right. Yeah, no, I, I think that team's really interesting to me. The Spurs, if they got Fox, which we should talk about, um, just what I just, I want to watch this next two Wemby months because they're 20 and 24 right now, and somehow they're only five games out of the five seed. Well, that's the thing. It's probably a lot of picks. Actually, let's talk about that. We'll take one more break.

• 52:04Speaker 03

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• 52:48Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by my old friend Amtrak. Being a sports fan can take you pretty far, even across state lines for game day. But with Amtrak, the trip can be part of the fun. Skip the driving, settle into your own seat, connect with other fans, and arrive ready for the action. The Amtrak Northeast Regional and the Acela connect major cities across the Northeast corridor, making the journey part of the experience. I've taken this train many, many times. Visit amtrak.com/spotify to plan your next trip.

• 53:17Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I already have my dream job. I run the ringer, argue with Chris Ryan, AKA CR. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates who actually do the job start to finish. No handoffs, no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters, which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Darren Fox, I was taping a pod on Tuesday with Priscilla and then all of a sudden this trade thing came out and I was like, boy, that's weird. And that's like, he has a specific

• 53:59Bill Simmons?

  team. Hmm. And then it turns out he wants to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod. I know you've probably talked about it on your show, Justin. A great career move by Darren Fox trying to go to the Spurs. Like this is like trying to join the hit TV show that's going to be the number one show on TV for the next 10 years. Like it's, I get why he wants to do it. It's they need somebody like him. The question for me is, what is the timetable for the Spurs? Do you even need to do this now? What's the point of it? You have no chance to win a title. Could you, if he wants to play for you this bad, why not just wait till he's a free agent? Why am I giving up stuff for him now?

• 54:37Speaker 02

  He's trying to get out ahead of it, right? Because everybody's going to want to go there. So it's a smart decision by him if that's what he wants to do.

• 54:43Bill Simmons?

  Eddie, if Eddie could still play, Eddie would be like, I'm here. I'll stand in the corner.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Every, every single player in the league should want that. All the broadcasters, like, you know, us, we should want to go down there and cover him and just like, you know, be their play by play guys because it's going to be fun for like 15 years where you get to watch that every single night. So like it's smart by Darren Fox. Now the question is, is it smart by San Antonio to go out there and get him? I mean, is that like, what is he 27? So by the time Wemba Yama is ready, you know, he's, and I think Wemba Yama, I guess is ready right now, but I guess the other pieces because he'd need more than just.

• 55:18Bill Simmons?

  They're pretty far away.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  But like, is he even the guy that you think fits in perfectly with him? I mean, he shoots in the low 30s in regards to three point percentage. You know, he's not a particularly high level defender. He hasn't impacted winning in Sacramento. So I don't know if that's like my first choice, Darren Fox.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  You automatically become a better defender with that dude behind you. Oh, of course. You would be a good defender with him behind you. Right. I mean, all you gotta do is stay in front of your man.

• 55:44Bill Simmons?

  I don't know about that.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  And De'Aaron Fox is so good at that, but here's where the fit is perfect. And I brought this up the other day. When Fox with Sabonis was really good. But the problem is they're both left handed.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Now you're coming off that screen with, with, with now Wemba Yama. Now he's going off to his right and De'Aaron Fox is to his left. It's a better pass. It's an easier fluid pass. It's all of that. And I think Fox is looking at that as well. Uh, some, a lot of times he and Sabonis kind of ran into each other a little bit. Uh, because of that dynamic. But now like this dude coming off left and you gotta agree, he's one of the best guys that in the paint in regards to being a guard. And now he's got that size to, to really initiate stuff to. I think that's one of the reasons why he's looking at it. And I think he's the perfect blend for him. You know, and, and I think even Chris Paul at times has a tough time with that in regards to it.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  So, you know, cause Chris is a more like a right-handed guy as well. So I think the nuances there, man, is just, is gonna be really good if he's able to get there.

• 56:53Bill Simmons?

  Plus Fox was, they were a two seed two years ago. He was the best guy on that team. So it's not like he, teams haven't succeeded with him. I guess where the way I'm looking at it. The risk would be.

• 57:06Bill Simmons?

  If we don't do this now, what if somebody trumps him? What if somebody else trades for him? What if we lose this opportunity? So then who are the other guys out there? Cause they clearly need somebody like this. They need somebody, give him the car keys, let him run shit. And it's like, you start looking around the league. Who else is it? Like Garland's not leaving Cleveland. Garland was the guy to get last summer and they, they probably should have tried to overpower them. Do you wait on Hope Maxey? Hope Philly just goes so far sideways that maybe they would just want a complete rebuild. You go through all the rosters and he's kind of the best fit, best fit for what they need.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  And he probably will never leave because he's from Texas. So he wants to be in Texas. And you want, you want players on your team that want to be in a certain region, especially if it's San Antonio.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why would you leave once you get there? I mean, you're going to be winning. You're going to be playing on national television every game.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Well, okay. But Penny Hardaway, Penny Hardaway and Shaq broke up. Safar Marbury left Kevin Garnett.

• 58:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, that was the worst one. I'll never, I'll never get over that one.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  That's right at the beginning of their career. Fox is now to play in Sacramento, who's a bunch of games, then get hooked up to Wemba Yama. Not if he chooses to go there. But the, you were like rattling off names, Bill. Uh, like Luca's a free agent, what, two years? All you hear about is Miami. Why is it only Miami that can get these guys?

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he culture. He culture is red hot right now.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Like, but you know, you hear that name linked to Miami. Why can't Luca be linked to playing with Wemba Yama?

• 58:34Bill Simmons?

  Cause that makes, that makes Luca look like a loser. Honestly, like he's just gonna, this is the same shit, same shit we make.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Durant already looked like a loser.

• 58:41Bill Simmons?

  I know, but think of Lebron's shit for that for eight years.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Yama. You need to stop.

• 58:46Bill Simmons?

  No, he went to Wade was one of the three best players in the league when he went there.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Was the best player on the team until Wade figured it out and stopped trying to do everything the next year and they won two back to back. I dare you even bring that analogy up.

• 58:59Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Wade was, Wade was probably the third best player in the league?

• 59:03Speaker 02

  And the best player on their team that year, at least in the finals.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  In the 2011 playoffs, he was the best player of the team.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 59:10Bill Simmons?

  He wasn't chopped liver. He already had a title.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  And Shaq wasn't chopped liver either. Wade don't sniff a finals victory back then if it wasn't for Shaq and Alonzo Mourning. So you all stop.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I, we agree with that. That's fine, but he was still a top five player.

• 59:24Bill Simmons?

  So if you're San Antonio and you can trade for Fox, keep Castle, cause Castle's just, I'm not even discussing him. Not discussing Wemby. And you can potentially keep Vassell.

• 59:37Bill Simmons?

  And then you add Fox and I don't care. Take your pick. What picks do you want? Like I, I would probably do it as long as it wasn't an insane amount of picks. I don't know what these teams are doing with all their picks.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  If they can keep Sohan, they need to keep him, man. If they can keep him, man.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  Atlanta, they have Atlanta's pick, right? The upcoming draft as well. So that's going to get more value because Jalen Johnson's hurt. So.

• 59:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was a tough one. I really liked that Atlanta team too. I thought they were like a six seed kind of range sleeper and then they just can't get healthy.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  I mean, they beat the Celtics twice in Boston. They beat Cleveland. I think multiple times.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Well, because Trey's having a great year. He was a snub. Let's just put it where it is. Trey, Trey was a snub. Trey Young was a snub because the way he's played, he's changed his game. He realized he's not Steph. He stopped playing like Steph and he started playing like a point guard and he's had a, he's had a very good year, man. And so I think he's a snub in the East as well.

• 1:00:33Bill Simmons?

  So is the league more fun?

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  If there's a Fox to San Antonio trade this year, I think it is. We basically sacrificed Sacramento as a playoff team and replaced them with San Antonio.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  What if they get Chris Paul?

• 1:00:48Bill Simmons?

  Sacramento?

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Bill Simmons?

  If Chris Paul was in the trade?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Bill Simmons?

  You think Sacramento could still patch it together? They have an older team, right?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  I think anywhere Chris Paul goes, they're dangerous.

• 1:00:59Bill Simmons?

  So why'd you try to trade him? Why'd you trade him from Phoenix?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  I wasn't the GM.

• 1:01:03Bill Simmons?

  Why'd you sign off on that deal?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  I wasn't the GM.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  Telling us how good Yusuf Nurkic was.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  You mean me?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Why are you blaming me?

• 1:01:12Bill Simmons?

  Remember that year when Eddie thought Yusuf Nurkic was good? We had to like kindly remind him over and over again.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Listen, hey, look guys, obviously you guys, I have to eat crow because you often get on me based on what's going on. But I will say this, you know, do you honestly think that he was able to play the way that he can play? Like he's a rebounder. That's what he is. Yeah. He's one of the best rebounders.

• 1:01:35Bill Simmons?

  He should be on a lottery team.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  He's one of the best, he's one of the best rebounders in the game. And that's what he is. I've never looked at him either any more than that. The, the biggest problem for Nurkic and I hope he improves it because it seems like he probably will get moved. Is he's just got to make, I don't know what it is. He's got to find out wherever a a Pete Newell protege is and he's just got to spend a whole summer with him.

• 1:02:00Bill Simmons?

  Eddie, he's in his 30s. It's, it's not happening. Give up the ghost.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  But that's the ground. That's the ground.

• 1:02:04Bill Simmons?

  This is too much Nurkic talk already.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  Does he talk to you Eddie or does he only not talk to Budenholzer? You still talking to him?

• 1:02:10Bill Simmons?

  He's already packed. He goes to the Suns games and he has all his suitcases in case the trade happens.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Well, obviously it's not good when you're not playing and, and you're not talking to the coach. I can't even run from that. It's, it's not, it's not good, but I will say this. He's been very good on the bench over there. Uh, it hasn't been a negative.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Well, let's give him a medal of honor.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  20 million years. They set the bench. Proud of a pause.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Other teams are watching.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  He still takes more free throws than DeAndre.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Teams are watching and, and, and so he's doing it the right way. He's doing it the right way.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Even though he doesn't play, still takes more free throws than Deandre Ayton.

• 1:02:46Bill Simmons?

  I saw that stat. What is he at 1.1?

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  No, he might go back to Portland.

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  The thing that ticked me off is Eddie and I talked about that on the show like two days ago and then Stat News came out with that stat like the day after we talked about it. They stole it from us.

• 1:02:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Hey, he might be back in Portland, guys. You never know.

• 1:03:03Bill Simmons?

  Eddie, can we go back to Webby for a second? What year did you enter the league? 85?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  81.

• 1:03:10Bill Simmons?

  81?

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  The Celtics smartly drafted Ainge ahead of him. Thank you, Red Harbor.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Hey, Bill, you know this. That was the worst, worst draft the Celtics ever had. Really was.

• 1:03:20Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't good.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  They, they had a chance to draft me.

• 1:03:22Bill Simmons?

  I remember this story.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  They drafted Ainge, he made an All-Star team. You never.

• 1:03:26Bill Simmons?

  No, we messed up the other two picks though.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Cost you, cost you all another title too.

• 1:03:30Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God. Eddie, Bird would have put Eddie in the Hall of Fame. He'd be like Michael Cooper. Like, how in the Hall of Fame?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Without a doubt.

• 1:03:37Bill Simmons?

  My God, how did this happen?

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Bill, Bill, without a doubt he would have.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Locked on cancer.

• 1:03:42Bill Simmons?

  All right. So you've been in the league since 1981 in various capacities. Have you ever seen anything remotely approaching Webby in person?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  No. He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen. Now, I used to say that about Mark Eaton. I used to say it about Manu Bo who obviously not the talent that Wimby is. But when you look at a dude like that, and I even said it one time about, uh, you know, Joel Embiid, Justin and I was in the summer league standing next to him and I didn't realize how massive he was.

• 1:04:13Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Uh, but Wimby, no, I've never seen anything like that. I'm serious, man. Look, when you can dunk, he, he's in the warm up line dunking flat footed.

• 1:04:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Like, and I've never seen that.

• 1:04:26Bill Simmons?

  So when you're on the plane after a game, are all the Suns players and coaches just talking about him for the next half hour? Is it one of those?

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Problem with our plane, they sit way up in the front. We fly one of them big giant monstrosity.

• 1:04:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so you're not even near them?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Never even seen him.

• 1:04:40Bill Simmons?

  They don't invite you for the poker games?

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Never even seen him. Nope.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Never seen him. Isn't that amazing? You go, isn't that amazing? You can fly on a plane? And you never see the player.

• 1:04:53Bill Simmons?

  Jesus. Well, in your day, you're, you're, you're sitting in airports.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:04:58Bill Simmons?

  You're connecting flights.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  The players. I'm pleased. Yes. Yeah. With the coaches. It was like everybody. Yeah. It's not like that anymore.

• 1:05:05Bill Simmons?

  People are coming up to you in the gates. That was such a fascinating era.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  Just eating like McDonald's with a two hour connection in Kansas City, trying to go somewhere else.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Hold on. No, getting on the flight, five in the morning, there's some guy sitting next to you and he wants to have a conversation. You don't even know who he is.

• 1:05:24Bill Simmons?

  Right. So are you a basketball player?

• 1:05:30Bill Simmons?

  So we should talk about the Suns. You'd, uh, cause you weren't on Justin's show today, so he didn't get the, uh, the privilege, pleasure, honor of, of your reaction to the ESPN story about some of the Sun stuff. I, my take, and I've said this before, is I actually think the Suns, the team they built is a team that really made sense in the 2010s, but the league is just way better now. And that star system, which a bunch of teams have where they have the two really good guys. It just doesn't work the way it did. Like you, you really need seven to nine guys who can be good at all times built around the two. And I don't know how they, they're kind of down this road now and I don't know how they fixed it. I know they freed up some picks. But is this even fixable in your opinion? You're at every game.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  I think it is and I've said this time and time again, just watching them all year. They're the biggest problem. It's not the opponent, it's them. And what I mean by it is if you look statistically at the numbers when they win. If they don't turn it over, and I mean like you're gonna turn the ball over, but I mean like fourteen, fifteen, you're giving up eighteen, twenty points off turnovers. The games they don't do that, they win. The games they rebound, at least stay close on the offensive glass, they win. Cause they normally outshoot the opponent. Like, we have lost a numerous amount of games this year where we've lost, we've shot forty-nine, fifty percent and lost. Why?

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Because the opponent got eighteen more field goal attempts. Right. And, and that is the issue with them. It's like, it's so simple and we see it, we've seen it over the stretch when they've been winning. We see it over the stretch when they don't turn it over and they rebound, they win. And they know it, but they just can't. It, it's just like last night. Last night, pretty much had the game under control. I watched it. Start, start turning it over. Like, it's just, it's, it's that part that drives you nuts. And, and I, you know, do I think it's, that's fixable to me. It really, that's fixable. Cause say what you want about Bradley Beal, people say he doesn't fit and all that. Dude playing his butt off, off the bench, man.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Like, he literally is trying to defend and he's literally scoring the ball at wheel, like, and he's, and he's obviously one of our most efficient players. So, it's, it's that part that, that drives me nuts calling the game. And, you know, obviously I can't go all crazy, but it's just like I'm watching it and I'm like, dude, just take one more dribble to the right and throw it into the post. Why are you, you know, it's just simple things that they get in trouble with. And it's just really, it's like, it drives you nuts to watch it at times. What do you see, Justin?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think Eddie hit it on the head with the rebounding that they might have the worst center rotation. We've talked about this on the tax. They might have the worst center rotation in the entire NBA. So they can't rebound. That's an issue.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  So what do you rebound now though?

• 1:08:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you got Nick Richards.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, now you got Nick Richards.

• 1:08:35Bill Simmons?

  It's like Will Chamberlain in 1965.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. I mean, he almost gave you a 2020 game the other day. So it's improved a little bit, but yeah. Rebounding is an issue. I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA. And I too agree like that it's fixable again because I don't have much confidence in the teams at the top of the Western Conference. Outside of Oklahoma City, I'm the more on the pick them to go to the finals this year. Eddie picked them to win the title like three straight years, then he didn't pick them this year. I picked them to go to the finals and lose. So I think it's fixable this year, but the issue I have is long term. You don't win this year, like say get Jimmy Butler and rectify it. It's not going to get better next year. It's not going to get the better the year after that. And you're stuck with what you have. So I think like this year, they could still make a pretty decent run. But after that, moving forward, they might be the biggest mess in the NBA. And why did they make that trade for three different picks?

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  If they didn't have something lined up, like they turned a 2031 pick. That's going to be valuable. I thought when they made that deal, okay, well, they know they're going to turn it into Jimmy Butler or some other big piece. They've done that. They don't have anything lined up.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Trade, trade that line out.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  So I know, but if they, if they don't make a move bill.

• 1:09:39Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty weird. I had the same reaction. You don't do that because they basically turned the $2 bill into, you know, a dollar and two quarters. You don't do that unless you know you're about to do something. So then everybody's like, all right, I can't wait to see what it is. A week passed.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Like if you just wanted Zach Levine, you could trade like, say Bradley Beal and attach the 2031 pick. Now, he wouldn't go to Chicago apparently, but the point is like that would get it done perhaps because that pick's so valuable.

• 1:10:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, my guess is they're trying to use one of the picks to dump Nurkic on another team, right? So then maybe he's in a three team or a four team trade, whatever. But either way, once you dump him. You have more flexibility to do the next move and I'm sure there has to be some master plan, but.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Personally, me personally, I think, I think that we're a physical player away from really being competitive this year in the playoffs. And, and that's at the forward position, whoever that guy can be. I just don't think it has to be a guy that's high level guy. I just think it's a guy that rebounds the ball. If we get more field goal attempts than the opponent, we'll win. Like I, I will put anything on that with the scores that we have. If we can rebound and don't allow second chance points and get the same amount of field goal attempts. I think we'll win most games. And I think that's their, that's their weakness right now is the rebounding.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  And if they can shore that up and I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do, then I think it helps. That's all.

• 1:11:14Bill Simmons?

  Tough one for me because that was one of my best bets heading into the year was Phoenix over 47 now. Eddie, you've watched Durant now for almost two years up close doing every game. Is there anything that stood out that you just had no idea until you're watching him night after night?

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  He, he's just relentless, man. Like when I tell you, he's just relentless. The dude, like, you know, it's, it's, it's never an accident to be that good offensively, right? It's, it's not an accident. I'll just give you all the story real quick. We had a large event and it was at the practice facility about a month and a half ago. And everybody was dressed up and everything and they had like a little mingle thing going on with the fans and all of that. And they had the baskets down. The whole entire night, he was shooting.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  I, I was blown away. Like the whole entire night, he was over there shooting. You know, people come over and talk to him and all that, but he shot the entire night.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  And I'm saying to myself, dude. Why do you have to keep you like we know it's like it's ingrained in him.

• 1:12:26Bill Simmons?

  So it's like something he was doing from like age six.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Bill Simmons?

  What he does, that's just part of his life every day.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, and the impact, I don't know, I I've not mentioned it to him yet because I've I've, you know, been able to talk to him since then, but it's like that blew me away. Like it's like that's why this dude is this good offensively like he just he understands his craft and and he knows what he has to do. But no, the shot making, man, I, you know, watching it from afar and and all of that. Yeah, but no, just to see it every day.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It's it's ridiculous, man.

• 1:13:02Bill Simmons?

  I keep waiting for signs of slippage with him because he's been in the league for 18 years now, Justin.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Bill Simmons?

  You know, there there's moments when he looks a little stiffer than maybe when you go back and you watch like the early OKC stuff and he's just such a crazy freak, seven foot and just so he's it's a whiff stiffer, but he has all the same shots. And he's so smart at no, it's almost like what was happening with LeBron near the end. When you just kind of know where to go, where to be, you can read everything and you know exactly what your best play is.

• 1:13:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't really see a lot of slippage. I don't know how much longer this goes.

• 1:13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I and I the thing I don't understand is like the talent from like an individual perspective. I haven't seen a drop off. I just don't understand why it doesn't result in in team success ever since he left Golden State, right? He goes to Brooklyn, like you saw him play the Celtics in the first round. He did get outplayed by Tatum in all four of those games.

• 1:13:58Bill Simmons?

  That was the second year. The first the first year, though, they had the bad luck with injuries. And that's the big what if.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  Exactly, with his foot on the line and all that type of stuff. And he was like, they probably go on to maybe win a championship because they were facing Phoenix in the finals. They would beat Phoenix. And then he goes to he goes to Phoenix and they've been unable to get out of the second round. They get swept last year. So it's like weird that it hasn't translated as a team success. Even though they've, you know, he's played with talented players. I will add something just like an individual story because Eddie and I crushed him when he went to Golden State. I know you. A little bit easier on him.

• 1:14:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  I like go back and forth with him on Twitter and I've been, you know, critical of aspects of like his career and his decision making, even though he's an amazing talent. We interviewed him last year and I've had a lot of stars who I'll be critical of. They won't even look at me. Like Durant comes up and he jokes around about it. We'd laugh about some of the stuff that I criticized for him in the past. Answers every question, jokes around, gives you a high five, says hello whenever you see him. So I just love the way the guy handles himself.

• 1:14:57Bill Simmons?

  You know, this is something Eddie said about when we were talking about LeBron once. When, when you think like when somebody gets to the league that they maximize whatever the potential of what they could have been, right? I think LeBron's the best example of this. Whatever you thought the ceiling was and he had the most expectations just about anybody. And then he hit all the expectations. I think Durant's like that too. And yet he's always going to have this thing about switching teams. And that's going to become part of the legacy. But what's, what's interesting to me about legacies is just watching Vince Carter, right? He gets his jersey retired in, in Toronto and in New Jersey. He's in New Jersey for four and a half years. I just don't think anybody gives a shit after a while, right? To even Toronto where you would think

• 1:15:42Bill Simmons?

  out of any fanbase would be the maddest at a player who left. And even they were like, yeah, we don't care. And I, I just think when Durant, when he retires and everybody's like, oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to retire his number? I think he'll get his number retired at OKC and Golden State.

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  They'll probably do it in Brooklyn. At the rate they do it, they'll probably do it in Brooklyn. I mean,

• 1:16:02Bill Simmons?

  Oh, they, Brooklyn might. If they're going to do Vince Carter, maybe KD's next.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Exactly. And the Vince Carter one really bothers me. Are they going to like give Jimmy Butler a jersey retirement? Are they going to, you know, put a sap up with Jimmy Butler?

• 1:16:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm not ruining anything out. The Vince Carter thing, I couldn't believe.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Paul George is upset because he never got a tribute video. I don't know if you saw that. He came out and ripped the Pacers.

• 1:16:21Bill Simmons?

  You tried to force a trade out of Indiana for a year.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. And, and like you treat the organization that way. You leave them high and dry and you want to be like honored. I just don't understand. Like there's a reward for handling yourself the right way in a city and then you'll get the honor. If you leave in a wrong way, then you shouldn't get it.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I think people have a forgiving heart and I think, um, we've had friends in our lives that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again. And years go by. And we kind of get a softer heart and we give in to the temptation of maybe, you know.

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  So you're telling me I'll like you in 20 years and 20 years I'll like you then?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  I mean, you will. Hey, you do it. You got a lot of people that have been divorced and they still get along. You know, it's just, I just think fans, I think over a period of time, I think they, they just remember the good times and they, and they, and they.

• 1:17:08Bill Simmons?

  It is funny. It is crazy how that works out. The Toronto thing really blew my mind.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  It's like you can quit on a team and then you can get honored. I, I don't understand that.

• 1:17:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I get like there were some good times in it too, but it's, I guess there's a statute of limitations for all this stuff. But back to KD, like, I just think all that stuff washes away. He won two titles. He's one of the best, either 15 or 20 players ever, depending on, you know, what your list is. And that's just going to be the legacy.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  But 100% because people only count stuff. Like you go back in, you know, the 1960s, all they do is count. 1970s, they just look at basketball reference. They don't look at the context behind anything. So yeah, it's going to matter maybe to me and you, how he won his championship. In 50 years, they're just going to count it on basketball reference with absolutely no clue.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  But I'll just say this, and I've told him this, I was upset that he went there only because I wanted OKC to beat Golden State. That's why I was upset. And I knew him going to Golden State, he was going to win championships. But Golden State was not beating LeBron if he did not go there. And, and I think that's what he can carry. And I think Golden State fans know that. So I think, yeah, they're going to retire his jersey. They're going to treat him like a king there because they knew they were in trouble. They knew that they weren't going to beat that Cleveland team the next couple of years.

• 1:18:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think Golden State won 73 games. Curry was hurt that 2016 playoffs. In Cleveland, the next two years, Kyrie, LeBron got rocky, Kyrie left.

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  Um, I don't know. Stuff got weird in Cleveland.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  And the, the other thing is like, I always look at it. If you replace Durant with that, like, I mean, even go back to another Golden State, great. If you put Rick Barry on that Golden State team, they're definitely winning the title. If you replace Durant with Barry, and that's what bothers me. Like even with LeBron.

• 1:18:58Bill Simmons?

  Barry like in his sixties or Rick Barry?

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Maybe Rick Barry even in his sixties, maybe even then, but definitely like during the prime of his career.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  I'm saying the same thing. I agree. It was an automatic win, but they weren't gonna have that automatic win. Because if he did not go there.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe, maybe not, but it's just hard. Like if you took Jalen Brown, for example, and put him there, they're definitely winning as well. And he's not anywhere close to an all time.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  He hit the big shots too.

• 1:19:24Bill Simmons?

  Here's the thing.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  He hit the big shots to seal those.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  There were no big shots. They were winning the series in four or five games.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  No, but he hit the big shots. I mean, he hit the big shots in that series. And then so that's the difference.

• 1:19:36Bill Simmons?

  But this is the thing, like, if you just go back to that Klay Thompson game, the sliding doors of it, OKC just beats Golden State. Then OKC plays Cleveland in the finals and it feels like the next nine years of the league is just different. I don't know how it plays out. Like, what if OKC beats Cleveland? And then it's like LeBron doesn't get the title in Cleveland. Does he stay in Cleveland until he gets the title? What happens? What happens to Golden State if Durant doesn't go there? Like they're, you know, I, it's probably the biggest what if of this century.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  And you, you view Durant completely different. Westbrook doesn't have to deal with any of the BS that he's dealt with his entire career.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  And so he gonna leave, but, but just, uh, uh, look, if Denver wins, it's gonna be Westbrook leading Jokic. So don't worry about it.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  No, of course.

• 1:20:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is finally, we can all agree on Westbrook at the same time, which I don't know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook and Jokic together.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I never gave up on Westbrook.

• 1:20:28Bill Simmons?

  I know you did. I gotta hand it to you. You never gave up.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  I said he should retire earlier this year, and I'm just, I just want to say that I'm glad that Westbrook found a teammate that was smart enough to understand how to utilize him. He finally found the guy.

• 1:20:40Bill Simmons?

  It's weirdly bad for LeBron, Eddie. This is like in the Jokic versus LeBron argument. This is not, this is an L for LeBron.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Bill, it's easy to say that, but here's what I told Justin last week is like. Jokic is the best, it was the best combination for Westbrook because with LeBron, LeBron handled the ball, Westbrook handled the ball. It wasn't a good mix.

• 1:21:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Down in Houston.

• 1:21:04Bill Simmons?

  We could have told everybody that before the trade.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  Westbrook handled the ball. It was not a good mix. Uh, you know, even when he went to Washington and he played with Bill, Bill was wanting to handle the ball in Washington. Westbrook didn't take off until Bill got injured.

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  And here was my response. Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  That is, that's the best combination because Jokic plays differently than everyone else.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie, and LeBron should have been intelligent enough to understand that, that he needs the ball, Westbrook needs the ball, and that was LeBron's mistake because he wanted to play with him.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, the ball goes into the Kings hands. That's how it is.

• 1:21:40Bill Simmons?

  That's the one real nitpick with LeBron is everybody else has to fit toward him.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  And that's the way it should be. That's the way it should be.

• 1:21:46Bill Simmons?

  But some of the best parts of all time fits in teammates.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, LeBron made a mistake bringing him there. I will say that, but the ball goes into LeBron's hands.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  All I had to hear for that.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  I don't care who's on the floor with him, whether it's Magic or Bird, you can make that argument. Okay? Bringing the ball up, I'm saying, not in the half court. Cause then we can argue Jokic. But what I'm saying is ball goes into LeBron's hands. That's just the way it is.

• 1:22:10Bill Simmons?

  Also though, the fact that Westbrook is, seems like he's like 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago. Like he's just an all time freak.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  It's ridiculous.

• 1:22:20Bill Simmons?

  Even LeBron like slowed down and got bigger and changed some of what he did. Westbrook seems like he's just like in, like, I don't know.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Freak of nature.

• 1:22:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand it.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, even though I said he should retire, I'm happy that he is not because I do love his mental approach. It's awesome. We want a guy that cares every single night as much as he.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  Well, think about this though. What about Presti? He had three MVPs, okay? And all three of those guys were three of the best conditioned athletes. Now Harden had his ups and downs.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  But the one thing about Harden, he played every night. And he had to bring the ball up against little dudes. He beat him off the dribble. So his energy level was high as well. But those three guys, KD, Russ and Harden on the same team. You can put them up there with the top energy guys in the history of the game. I mean, they have, they persevered.

• 1:23:13Bill Simmons?

  I, I flew to Oklahoma City at the end of 2010 because I just wanted to go to a game. I really liked watching OKC and I just kind of wanted to see them before they ascended to whatever was going to happen with them. And I went to a practice and at the end of the practice, they were running the wind sprints and KD and Russ were beating everybody in the wind sprints. They're like busting each other's ass, trying to beat some random day in December in the middle of the season. And they're flying back and forth, trying to beat each other. And I really think like that, like all those early years where they're competing against each other and Harden's trying to compete against them. Probably had some weird, you know, carry on effect to the fact that we're in the mid 2020s and all those guys are still on important teams, you know?

• 1:23:57Bill Simmons?

  Doing their thing because now they're on their mid 30s.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  It's amazing. Yeah.

• 1:24:01Bill Simmons?

  Um, before we go, quick, quick game of do you believe? Do you believe in Cleveland as an actual title contender? Justin?

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  I, I do. Eddie likes, we've had this debate because Eddie likes the Knicks more than the Cavs. I like the Cavs more than the, uh, the Knicks and, uh, you know, I love what that, we, here's what we do agree though on Cleveland. Is we both love that Donovan Mitchell's taken a step back, uh, and involved his teammates a little bit more because I thought that was a major issue in Utah. I thought it was a major issue the first couple of years in Cleveland. The fact that his numbers have dropped a little bit, uh, shouldn't be an indication of his play getting worse. It's the same exact thing Boston did last year. You look at everybody in that rotation, took a step back for the sacrifice. Sacrifice. That's what Donovan Mitchell's doing this year. I absolutely love it and I take them seriously as a title contender. And the other thing that I love. Is like people wanted to break up Mitchell and Garland and there was even some thought

• 1:24:55Speaker 02

  Bill that Garland wanted out. Remember last offseason?

• 1:24:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it was. I don't think it was a thought. I think I don't know if he was 100% happy.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Of course. And then same thing with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Can they play together? They keep them together. And I love continuity. I know you're big on this as well. Like the longer teams stay together, the easier like that's why Philadelphia like this year, I didn't believe in them anyway, because it's three guys being thrown together that you knew weren't going to play a ton. Like continuity means something. And now they're at the point where they know each other inside and out. So I take him as a legitimate threat. I have him number two behind Boston in the East.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, they're a threat. They definitely are a threat. They're the biggest team, one of the biggest teams in the league. And I think Jared Allen, if he can stay healthy, I think he's the key.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  Their wings are a concern, and I guess how they deal with size is a little bit concerned at the guard position, which is why Boston matches up well against them with Holiday and White and Brown.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Karis Levert, I think off the bench for them, whether he's on off the bench or starting, he's gonna have to be consistent. Right? And so I think they got enough. Yeah, I do. I think they have enough to to offset because they can bother Boston with their size.

• 1:26:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  And then I think they just maybe have, you know, the same amount of experience as New York. So it's like almost a crap shoot with the two of them. So I think they do have a chance.

• 1:26:15Bill Simmons?

  Right now in FanDuel, they're plus 850. They have the third best odds for the title. The Celtics are plus 210. OKC's plus 230. Don't make a Terry Rozier joke.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  No, no, I wasn't going to. I was going to. I'll make a Terry Rozier joke. Would you bet on Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson? If you're Terry Rozier, would you put money on Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell in a series? Because don't forget Brunson's beat him twice, outplayed him twice. Once in when Mitchell was in Utah, once he was in Cleveland.

• 1:26:43Bill Simmons?

  So my fear, I think the Knicks are really good and you can see them getting better and you know they're gonna get a buyout guy and they'll have an eight man rotation. You know they're all gonna play too many minutes and somebody will probably get hurt. But I think the ceiling, I'm really impressed by them, especially offensively. I do wonder with the, with the amount of stuff they're putting on Brunson, how sustainable that is for nine months. That would be my biggest fear if I'm a Knicks fan. He's not a big guy. We just haven't seen teams built around small guards be able to survive for nine months. The only guy that really did it was Isaiah.

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  Well, don't you, I mean, they killed Becky Hammond for saying the same exact thing. So be careful, Bill.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  I think, I think it's on Brunson though. I think Brunson has to be honest with himself. Because I think he plays beat up a lot.

• 1:27:30Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it's sustainable.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  He be, he plays beat up a lot and I don't think he, I don't think he, he needs to sit down at times. And, and I think it's just that mentality of, you know, he shouldn't have to worry about it. But I think, no, if I sit down, something might happen, you know, so I take my minutes kind of thought. That's not happening with him. I just think he, you know, he's all wrapped up, man. To be a young player, he just always got something on his body. Yeah.

• 1:27:55Bill Simmons?

  And they got great crowds, but that's why I like Cleveland a little bit more. I like the way they've handled the regular season. They're winning, but you look at their minutes and everybody's like 30 minutes and below. Like they're really, they're really kind of pushing toward where.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  Celtics play their guys a lot. The Knicks play their guys a lot.

• 1:28:10Bill Simmons?

  Celtics, their top two guys are, yeah, 36 minutes and up for the top two. Do you believe in Zion at this point, Eddie?

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  No. I believe in his talent, but I don't believe that he is capable of keeping himself in shape. And, and I think that's part of the issue. Like I've, I've seen a lot of basketball players in my life playing the NBA and I always wondered, was that guy better off being a football player or a basketball player?

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  And I still continue to say it. When I first saw Zion in high school and I saw him on the basketball court, I said, that's a football player that's very good at basketball. And, and I think his mentality is that of a football player, of like a lineman or something. You know, we didn't have to do a ton of stuff, you know? And for me, I, I just don't, I don't, basketball seems to not have been his ticket. Like, we all played sports, right? I played baseball. I played football a little bit. And I was pretty good at baseball. But I reached a point where I said, okay, Eddie, you're six foot six. There's not too many six foot six third baseman.

• 1:29:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  My arm is hurting from pitching. I need to play basketball, right? And I don't know if Zion ever reached that point of having to make the decision. I think automatically, he played basketball. And, and to me, man, I just don't think mentally, he's in tune with what it takes to stay on the floor. As a basketball player.

• 1:29:46Bill Simmons?

  But what's funny about you laying that out though, is that he came into the league as one of the best assets for the number one pick that we probably had this century.

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  We, we interviewed David Griffin and Alvin Gentry the night they got that pick. Like, we were there at the draft lottery. Those guys were as happy as could be, and it might end up like it already cost Alvin Gentry his job. And it might cost David Griffin his job. So they were ecstatic about it at the time, but now they might lose their job as a result of him. Gentry already did.

• 1:30:13Bill Simmons?

  The one thing I've, I've learned a couple of things, I guess, following sports and trying to come up with things to say and studying stuff. If the guy doesn't want it, there's not a lot else you can do. And I think you could say that if you're a parent and you have a kid that's good at a certain sport. You can't force the kid to be awesome at the sport. At some point, they're gonna have to give a shit. And he says all the right things sometimes, but it just, just doesn't seem like he gets it. And now he's headed toward his mid twenties.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  And at some point, it's either gonna happen or it's not up here, and it just doesn't seem like it's there.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  And I'll tell this story real quick, and I've said it on our show. I, I once had this lady traveled all the way from Wyoming with her kid. And that's when I had a training academy.

• 1:30:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  The kid, she shows up, kid is six foot six. I mean, ripped, fourteen.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Fourteen years old. And she says he's gonna be a great basketball player. He's gonna grow. His dad was six, ten, and he's gonna grow. So I worked the kid out. He takes twenty-five jumpers in close, ten feet around the rim. May one. Okay, uh, I moved him out a little bit. Five airballs. Like, and so I sit him down on the side and I said, you know, what do you like to do? And he started talking about all the things he likes to do. And he started talking about his instruments and he likes to play in the band and all of that. And not one time did he mention basketball.

• 1:31:40Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  I looked at the mother. I went over, I said, miss, I'm gonna give you your money back.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  And I thought I charged her like a grand. I said, I'm gonna give you your money back. And I am telling you, if you don't wanna lose your kid, you need to let him be in the band. I am telling you, he does not wanna play basketball.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  She started crying. I mean, literally.

• 1:32:05Bill Simmons?

  Cause she knew deep down.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  I had to grab this lady. She was like distraught. And I told her. And then I went over there, took over to him and I said, son, what do you like to do? Band. You know? And, and, and, and so to me, that's the like, it reminds me of Zion. Like, he was made to play basketball. They wanted him to play basketball. And I just wonder at times, does he really like want to play at a high level? And then I've, I've said that about numerous guys. It's not just Zion.

• 1:32:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. Well, that contrasts that to your Durant story.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:45Bill Simmons?

  Durant probably ever since he could hit the ten-foot rim with the ball, he's probably been shooting jumpers for three, four, or five hours a day.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:53Bill Simmons?

  So, yeah, that, that's the thing. And I, I actually think Tatum has this. I think Tatum and Brown has it too, and maybe it's a good thing that they, you know, they're a little competitive in a good way with each other, but I think they, they come in every year, like this year, Jalen got too big, but at least there was intent behind it, right? He's like, I need to, I need to survive the nine months. Tatum always adds stuff year after year. I know, I want Jalen to lose a little.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that was my issue with like, honestly with Jamal Murray. It's like, did he get paid? Did he win the championship and then take his foot off the gas? Like to the credit to Jaylen Brown, to the credit to Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum, like those guys have busted their rear ends. Like Jalen Brown, like again, you said he got maybe too big, but the intention was good. So Jalen Brown like wins a championship, he gets paid. Like the year before Jalen Brown got paid, he didn't say, I get paid and you know, I'm just fine now. Like Jalen Brown got the biggest contract in NBA history and then came back and had the best season of his career, won a five, like that's credit to guys that do that because I don't think everybody can.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  You could argue that's what maybe forced Jamal to not be in shape because he had not gotten paid yet. And so.

• 1:34:04Bill Simmons?

  This is a bigger issue with the league than I think people realize. Guys that have an extension coming and they're afraid to get hurt. So they stop working out all during the summer. There's a list of.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  And it messes them up, Bill.

• 1:34:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I think it just happened to Trey Murphy. I, I think he started out the season shitty and now he looks like Trey Murphy again.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I don't think Devin would ever admit it, but the way that he changed his game this summer was a positive for the Olympic team.

• 1:34:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  But I think that mentality kind of cut down that killer instinct that he had for a short period of time.

• 1:34:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Thinking that, okay, I'm gonna try this on the Suns too. I'm gonna like, I won't take a shot in the first five minutes and you know, I'll turn it on when I can. And I think it, it kind of got him in that situation. And lately he's gotten back to Devon, you know, being ultra aggressive. Like a lot of times they tell you, like Larry Brown used to always say, you F with the game. It's no F with you.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  So, and that's, I agree with Eddie's point. I think that's a really good point that he carried that mindset that he had all summer into the season and it affected his game. Uh, can somebody tell me somebody that actually benefited from the Olympics this year? Cause I think everybody was going.

• 1:35:10Bill Simmons?

  Here comes the anti patriot.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  Boo America, boo America.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  You play, you play for your country.

• 1:35:19Bill Simmons?

  I do think if I could do, if I was the czar of our Olympic basketball program, I would go 25 and under for the team.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so would I.

• 1:35:27Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't, I just wouldn't.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  And we'll get our butt kicked every year.

• 1:35:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if we would.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  You almost got your butt kicked this year with the, you know, the Legends.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  And Jokic almost beat you by himself.

• 1:35:38Bill Simmons?

  I want like, people like Amen Thompson in, on our 2020 Olympic team. Like, let's give them the experience, put them on that stage.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 1:35:47Bill Simmons?

  And maybe have like, one or two people over 25 as like, the, the adults.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  I would love to see that, Bill. I'm with you.

• 1:35:53Bill Simmons?

  I would be so much more excited.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Bill, I would love to see it. I like cheering for the underdog.

• 1:35:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Because we need to be underdogs again.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it's gonna be.

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  Which is why I cheered for Serbia.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, why you even acknowledge that?

• 1:36:08Bill Simmons?

  Just, get a dual passport and move out of here.

• 1:36:13Bill Simmons?

  Guys, thank you for all the time. This was great. Now, I, now I, now I'll feel better when I pop on your show out of nowhere when I'm driving around and I just text Jess.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Hold it. You never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down.

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  No, Bill, we're not. Well, you did last week, Eddie. He asked us last week. You said no.

• 1:36:28Bill Simmons?

  No, but there was a reason you guys couldn't do it last week. I know. No, this was fun. I had a great time. Uh, can listen to you guys every, what is it, four to seven?

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  Four, yeah, four to seven, uh, eastern time, Monday through Friday. Uh, and this, I think this is the longest we ever talk to each other for free. Typically, we just talk to each other on Monday.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  No way I talk to them for free. Trust me, Bill. So you're good. You're a good conduit, Bill. Trust me on that.

• 1:36:54Bill Simmons?

  All right. Safe travels. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  Ah, farewell.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  All right. Okay. Take care.

• 1:37:02Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the pod. Thanks to JT and Eddie. Thanks to Kyle, Sarudy and Gahow. As always, don't forget, you can watch the clips and videos from this podcast

• 1:37:14Bill Simmons?

  on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch Before Sunrise on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel, the latest rewatchables we did. I will see you on Sunday. We're not going live because there's no football game, but Cousin Sal and I are gonna have a, uh, little Super Bowl props extravaganza. So that's coming on Sunday. Maybe we'll do some basketball too. We will see. Enjoy the weekend.

• 1:38:02Bill Simmons?

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• 1:38:54Speaker 05

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