The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Jimmy Butler vs. Miami Heat saga (2:43). Then Bill and Ryen prep for the NBA trade deadline by running through Bill's 2025 NBA Trade Value list (20:12). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, I'm gonna bat around a 2025 NBA trade value list with Brian Russillo. It's fun. It's next.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 1:37Bill Simmons?

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• 2:22Bill Simmons?

  Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did before sunrise 30th anniversary of a movie that I love very much. Me, Chris Ryan, Sean, Fantasy. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Russillo came on. We started taping this late morning on Tuesday. I'm trying to figure out my annual trade value list that we're going to run on ringer.com. So I brought in Russillo as my conciliary. As we're taping, Shams Charania breaks the news that Sacramento is now ready to explore De'Aaron Fox trades,

• 3:08Bill Simmons?

  which of course we did not talk about, even though this trade value podcast is almost two hours long. I'll let you guess where Fox was in the rankings, but let's just say he was in the top 25. For trades, Miami, maybe. I think Butler has to be in it and a bunch of picks. And God only knows what else, or maybe, maybe it's built around Tyler Heron picks. But Miami jumped out to me as a possibility. Brooklyn, if they want to trade some of their, some of their big stuff. And the only thing that doesn't make sense with them is they're trying to tank this year, but it just seems like the kind of foundational guy for them.

• 3:48Bill Simmons?

  San Antonio definitely has the pieces to try to get him, throw some picks in. They can make the contracts work and then try to pair him with Wemby. And then Houston, which we talk about in this podcast you're about to hear, which I think Houston's going to be afraid to do a major move, but they certainly have the pieces if they want to go get Fox, which I've been talking about for six weeks. If they wanted to turn Van Vliet and a bunch of their picks and maybe, you know, Cam Whitmore to make the contracts work and, and just try to go all in and get him and add him to the team. It would be risky because they're playing really well right now. But those were the ones that jumped out. Other than that, I don't really see a fit, but I guess, I guess we'll see. So De'Aaron Fox on Trade Black.

• 4:32Bill Simmons?

  You are about to listen to the trade value breakdown for 2025. This is where we're going to sort out the final list. Russillo is here. It's all next. First, our friends from Prodigy.

• 5:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this late Tuesday morning Pacific time. Ryan Marcello is here. It's been a while for us. Once, uh, once we get through football season, we're gonna be doing Sunday nights again, talking hoops and a whole bunch of other stuff. But I'm bringing you in right now, Marcello, as the trade value list conciliary, a thing that I have now been doing for 25 years, a quarter of a century, the trade values list, which is not a rankings, it's a trade asset list, trying to figure out who the biggest trade asset in the NBA is. But before we do that, um, what, what side are you on in Jimmy Butler versus Miami? Do we have to pick a side?

• 5:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we do.

• 5:40Bill Simmons?

  Is this one of those things where you just have to go one side or the other?

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, I like to have an open mind about a lot of things, but I think deep down my core, I know I probably already know which direction I'm going, but he just wanted the contract that he's not getting. So what, I mean, unless there was a promise, I mean, everybody knows Harden's not my favorite guy, but I kinda sided with Harden on the end of the Philly thing, because why would he have taken the pay cut? Why would he have done everything he had done?

• 6:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  And then it's like, and I know Philly's gonna say, nothing was ever agreed upon, you're totally wrong. All right, that's fine. But he did something that didn't really make a ton of sense at the time to allow flexibility, then he didn't get a deal. So on that one, I was like, well, even though I'm not definitive, either way, I can understand him being upset with this one. I mean, do, have you heard anything that you believe? That's probably the important second part. Have you heard anything that you believe that would let you think that Miami would have been in a hurry to extend somebody like Butler, who's 35 and misses a lot of games?

• 6:37Bill Simmons?

  And had a contract for this year and a player option for next year. I think that's the unusual part about it, is that there was real years on the book left. I, I really feel like I wanna pick a side, but I kinda see both sides, because-

• 6:51Speaker 04

  What's Butler's side? Give me the anti Miami Heat side.

• 6:55Bill Simmons?

  I think Butler's side is his relationship has been bad with the Heat for a couple of years, and he took them to the finals in 2000 and 2023. And I think at some point, he felt like, you know, I brought you guys here, you guys tried to embarrass me in the press conference last year. Um, you won't talk about an extension, you obviously don't care if I'm here two years from now. So what's the point of this? With that said- I don't think he's handled it well either, you know? I, I think a lot of us, including me and you, have been in, you know, some pretty hairy professional situations where you ended up not liking people you worked with or the employer you had. And at some point, you still have to kind of do your job. And I think that's where it's tough to side with him.

• 7:37Bill Simmons?

  On the Miami side, um, they, Riley just seems like he's tried to antagonize him and, and alpha dog him in a bunch of different ways, in ways that if you knew anything about Jimmy Butler, it's like you get on this road and there's no going back. So I see both sides, but I will say this, they, he, they torpedoed his trade value at this point. I mean, I, I think you could just get him now for two expirings and they're like, good, take him. Cause they're so worried he's going to opt into next year. The start of the season, I was thinking Houston should do Amen Thompson and Van Vliet and let's go all in and try. I, I mean, we'll talk about Amen Thompson later, but to think like that, that was maybe an argument

• 8:18Bill Simmons?

  at the beginning of the season versus where we are now, where it's like, ah, would Detroit give up Tobias Harris and Tim Hardaway for Butler and that's it? I don't know, Tobias is playing pretty well. Like that's where we're at with this Butler thing, which is insane.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  You might be right about that. And I think there's, there's a bunch of different things there that I like. Um, I've never been special enough, uh, to compare myself with Jimmy Butler, right? Like I, and I'm not, I'm not saying this because whatever our dynamic is, but your career, like I think at times you have been special enough to probably get away with.

• 8:48Bill Simmons?

  We don't have to, I'm not comparing ourselves to him in that way. I'm just comparing like what it's like to work for somebody when you're really frustrated with them. And he's way more frustrated, I think, than either of us have ever been with anyone we worked with. Like he's doing shit, but he's doing stuff that, he's doing stuff that, uh, you know, that's, that's just seems like he's trying to sabotage everything.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Well, right, when the first quote came out, when this thing first got picked up, it was like Jimmy hasn't even started yet. Which I was like, yeah, because we know the deal. Um, you know, I think a lot of this stuff is like personal equity where if like Tim Duncan ever had a problem with anything, I think we'd all immediately take Tim Duncan's side. I guess just go, whoa, like Tim Duncan's upset about something. And with Butler, even though I think there's, there's a version of the Chicago events where I would understand him. I thought the Wiggins Towns thing at the time was funny because I don't think he was wrong. Philadelphia decided to go with the young guys. So, you know, every exit, there's some drama, but with this, there's another part of this that is just the reality of what's happening. This new CBA, when we first talked about it, you're like, man, this kind of looks like a hard cap.

• 9:58Speaker 04

  This, this looks like there's really limited flexibility. I think another motivation behind some of this was that, hey, guess what? If you have a four-year extension about to kick in and you want to ask for a trade and you want to ask for a trade to like one team that's already pretty good, we're going to set up something that not only curbs spending, which is the primary motivation behind this, but we're also gonna like make it really hard for you guys to decide like, sorry, I'm just out of here now and you have to do this. And I think that a lot of star players.

• 10:28Bill Simmons?

  Good point.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  It's becoming a wake-up call. And when you're 35 and you miss a lot of games and your personal history is that it ends up in some sort of bullshit thing that's a distraction for the basketball team. Like, no kidding, there's not a great market for him.

• 10:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, you think like he, in the old days, I want to go to Phoenix. All right. How are we?

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 10:48Bill Simmons?

  They spent three weeks. Now it's like, yeah, you're not going to Phoenix. Guess what? We're not taking Bradley Beal. We're not. There's no scenario where we take them. Nobody else is taking them. And on top of the Bradley Beal is a no trade clause. So Phoenix is out. Stop saying you want to go there. Um, I think it's at the spite point where they just send them, you know, this last thing that happened this week. Now it just seems like they don't even care. They just want to get him out of there and, and try to move on. I think it's gotten that bad. So he kind of

• 11:16Speaker 04

  I don't know why they want to be another team. Yeah, I don't know why they'd want to be in the Jimmy Butler business. I think I can't dispute the fact of like, whatever the trade market was for him versus now, it's diminished because you're like, here we go again. And it's all fresh. And when it's actually happening and then you have to sit in their front office and your ownership and your coaches and go like, like, I like the Memphis basketball part of it. But then when you hear the quote being like, don't send him to Memphis, like anywhere but Memphis.

• 11:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  So if you're Memphis and you're like, hey, we're pretty good. We're not great, but we're pretty good. So yeah, he raises our top five ceiling, which I think a lot of teams just do. Like, hey, if these are the five guys are rolling out there to close the playoff game, this is better than the five we have right now. It makes sense. But if you're like, what if he opts in at 50 million and then he's 36 and we don't give him an extension? So even though I

• 12:03Bill Simmons?

  There's only one team.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:06Bill Simmons?

  There's, you have to be desperate to do this. And like taking, pushing the Detroit's aside and teams that would be like, oh, it'd be fun if they got Jimmy Butler. Golden State's the only team that's actually desperate. Golden State is at an actual crossroads as a franchise, as an organization for the decade. You know, they're just not good enough. And the stat that they're 1-20 heading into the fourth quarter when they're not winning. To me, that's like, we got to go one way or the other, guys. Are we going to try to get better and do some sort of crazy all in trade? Or are we going to start going the other way and start trading off people and just tanking this season and throwing it away? And do we go that way? But you, right now, they're in some middle ground. And that's where like, you know, if you and I are in the Warriors

• 12:51Bill Simmons?

  office with the Lakeopps and the GM and they're like, what do you guys think? At some point, I'd be like, look, man, I think when Jimmy gets traded, he's going to be really good. I think he's going to be possessed and you might get an awesome year out of him. And this is the only way you could flip your destiny as a franchise. You might be able to get this guy for 12 cents on the dollar. And in a playoff series, nobody's going to want to see him. Do you, two years from now, do you care? Two years from now, you're going nowhere anyway. So that's the one team I think I could see. And there's trades, they have a bunch of contracts, Wiggins would have to be in it. But that's the only one I see.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  I just would be scared to death if I'm done Levy and I'm late and I'm going, okay, so we bring him in. Everything you made sense, that said, made sense, but you know, his agent's like, okay, so you know, what do you think about tacking on those two years for him? It's a no.

• 13:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, the bigger question is that just gone now based on how this year is gone? Like, hey, his agent's Bernie Lee, who's a very nice guy. Hey Bernie, Jimmy's in every two years contract at this point. That's just the way it is. There's nobody in the league that's going to go for a friend based on the behavior. That's, that's what he's forfeited. On the bright side, if he's still really good, every two years he'll get an awesome contract. I think he's in that James Harden kind of zone now where it's like two, three years.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  If he was 32, he doesn't play enough for me. It's a no. And, and you're right about the basketball part of it, whether it's them, whether it's Memphis. Cause it does raise your ceiling, but if, if I have to sit there and be honest with the people that are in charge of my employment. Right? If you're working on the front office side of this, answering to your owner and going, yeah, let's just trust that it's going to work out with his track record. I wouldn't feel good about saying yes to that. I would just go like, look, it probably, it'd be one thing if he was younger and you go, hey, maybe the West isn't, and it isn't as deep or doesn't feel as deep halfway through the seasons. We thought it would be the summer. OKC still looks like a monster. I mean, we can run through every team and I could tell you concerns I have about all the contenders, but it would have to be more of like a guarantee of what's possible.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  And even adding him doesn't, like, what does it actually guarantee about what Golden State can do in the playoffs?

• 14:53Bill Simmons?

  The only reason you do it is because you love Curry. You feel like you owe it to him to at least be competitive for a couple of rounds. And this is a way to honor that. That's it. You're not beating, you're not winning four straight playoff rounds with or without Jimmy Butler. I don't think.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Let me, let me throw something at you here because you mentioned it with the Riley thing and they felt like really betrayed by Riley being upset. When Butler was basically like, if I was playing, we'd beat Boston, we'd beat the Knicks. By the way, they weren't beating that Boston team last year or last playoffs with Butler. So it was kind of a crazy thing. And then I think about like Riley's age, he's the same age as my dad. I'm like, imagine if my dad had to do a press conference about a player.

• 15:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm so glad you brought this up. Riley's old. Like, he's acting erratically, which makes sense because he's like 80. 80 years are erratic.

• 15:42Speaker 04

  I went to go see Gillis and Bill Burr last night for the fire benefit. And Gillis had this whole routine of like, you know, Biden didn't really get enough credit. Like, imagine, imagine if you had someone in your family who was 84, who had to like go out there and speak to the world.

• 15:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  Like, it actually could have been that much worse. Now, look, Riley, at no point do I think like, what's going on with this guy? But he deserves, like Riley's done enough in his basketball life to have this stance. And then when I think about like how other teams operate and everybody operates in absolute fear, where they have to, when their best player goes off, they have to find some way through PR to craft some way that they're supportive. But it's like, so what, so what happened? What if Riley had said nothing? The bottom line is if they didn't give him the contract extension, they'd probably be in the exact same place. So like, you can tell me that it was insulting or that that was the thing that, I don't. When he didn't get the extension, when he felt like he was owed this, like, why? Because you went to the finals two years ago, which was like really fluky. And what, five years ago?

• 16:44Bill Simmons?

  He had a great year last year, which is the biggest.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  And he doesn't play, he doesn't play enough. And look, when he was playing this year, you could see, you're like, what's going on with him? Like, before this even got like publicly bad, and it's like, so you want the extension, but you're going to mail it in for stretches?

• 17:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I almost feel like he's coasting until the trade. And when he gets traded to wherever, he's going to unleash holy hell. That's why the Detroit option is so fascinating to me for him. Because that's a, that's a team that would actually need him. That's a team that just wants to be good, relevant in some way. And that's a team that has a really, really good player, you know? And they bring some things to the table. They're pretty well coached.

• 17:24Bill Simmons?

  He raises their ceiling in a way that I think is intriguing. They're not going to win the title with him. And I think that's why whoever is trading for him is not a team that he can win the title with. And I think that's another reality of this. Like, Denver's not trading for him. Even if, even if Miami was like, all right, fine, we'll take Porter and we'll take Zeke Najee for four years. You can have Butler. I don't know if that changes Denver's ceiling. Like, they're to have enough outside shooting problems, you know? If they were playing worse, I might think about it, but I actually really like the way they're playing, even though they lost last night.

• 17:58Bill Simmons?

  We'll see what happens.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  You're totally, you're totally ruling out Phoenix.

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't think anyone wants Beal and even if they wanted Beal, I don't know if he would agree to go to the trade, but I, I watched the game last night. Like I just don't think Beal's good. He's fine. Like he's, he's a rotation guy, but for 50 million a year, that's the worst contract in the league. What am I, and he doesn't play every time, you know? I think there's a reason like Phil, like Phoenix has tried to move away from that big three model with him. And I think there's a reason everybody is like, yeah, no, thanks. Cool. Oh, I get Bradley Beal this year and the next two? No, thanks. Like everyone throws Chicago and you know, oh, could he go to Milwaukee? Why would Milwaukee want Bradley Beal? They're gonna have him and Dame at the same time trying to play

• 18:42Bill Simmons?

  defense? That's crazy. I just can't find a team for him either.

• 18:48Speaker 04

  I guess I just wonder why Phoenix would flip the unprotected 2031 for these other pieces without some inclination of what's possible for him before the deadline. Unless it was just, hey, we're all in now. Like when you have Durant, you're all in. So is Beal better than mid-level players? Yes. He's really low on what the actual acquisition cost is.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  Can I stop you for a second?

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Cause he's in control. Yeah.

• 19:14Bill Simmons?

  That trade was horrible. That was the all time, we took a $2 bill and turned it into three quarters and a dime because it gives us more flexibility. It's like, that's a team that they're at the blackjack table, losing hand after hand, going, give me more. I'm gonna double that.

• 19:31Speaker 04

  Oh, you're talking, can I borrow your chips?

• 19:32Bill Simmons?

  You're talking about the trade. Yeah. Yeah, the actual Phoenix trade, you're acting like Phoenix is a rational team that puts thought into the shit they do. That trade was idiotic. I'm not trading that pick.

• 19:41Speaker 04

  Well, because they have nothing, because they have nothing and they're already all in with this group. I think the argument is that, well, like what are we doing? We're, we're gonna hold on to assets in 2031. Like we have to find any possible way to upgrade this group because once you did the Durant trade, this is, this is how you were operating.

• 20:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but at that point, you're Tim Daly's character in The Sopranos, the screenwriter who's on the 48 hour gambling binge, just getting killed. And he's like, just give me 25 grand more. I'm gonna win this back. That's Phil, that's Phoenix and Ishbia right now. Just give me, let's split the picks up. We'll have some flexibility. We'll try to win this back. It's like, this ship has sailed. You're not, you're not doing anything and you're not getting Jimmy Butler for what you have. And if, if anyone takes Bradley Beal and allows you to get Jimmy Butler, I can't imagine a team in the league that's dumb enough. Maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe they'll cut this clip out and be like, I don't see why anybody would want Bradley Beal. 50 million this year, 50 million the next two in, in the second apron era. Who wants that?

• 20:40Speaker 04

  I'd be fascinated to know like what he would actually waive his no trade clause for, because this is somebody who actually didn't go to Washington the entire time they lost. Like, we kept waiting for that to happen. And then I remember hearing like, he's probably just gonna wait until he can get that five-year extension with them as the incumbent team. And he is okay with just kind of being there. And then I wonder if Beal goes, you think I'm upset about coming off the bench? You think I'm upset about taking 13 shots a game?

• 21:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  I like, I like it here. I like Phoenix. My family likes Phoenix.

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you can't.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:16Bill Simmons?

  You can't humiliate me. I'm good.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  I was, I stayed with the Wizards for years on purpose. You think this bugs me?

• 21:23Bill Simmons?

  I just called my accountant. I just can't believe how much money I'm gonna make the rest of the year. I'm fine. Let's take a break. We gotta talk trade value.

• 21:35Bill Simmons?

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• 23:04Bill Simmons?

  mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. All right, so the trade value rule is really quickly. It's not, this is not a top 100 list. This has to do with age of the players, salaries mattering, contract length, happiness and degrees, right? So it's if you're talking about one player that's 35 versus an up and coming star that's 23, as crazy, Amon Thompson's a good example. Yeah, Amon Thompson for Kevin Durant, if it was just this year, maybe you'd want Kevin Durant for the playoff run. But big picture, as an asset for your team, for age, rookie contract, the whole thing, you'd want Amon Thompson.

• 23:49Bill Simmons?

  You'd want to be in the business of him for the next 15 years. So that's a good way to think about it.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  It's also a great name, just to interrupt quickly, because after last night, I was like, will he have Amon in his top 10?

• 24:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, here's the thing. So I've been working on this list for two weeks and there was a version of it a couple of days ago where I had him 20. And I emailed it to a friend of mine and I was like, does anything jump out? And he's like, Jesus, you have Thompson that high? And I'm like, I actually do. Like, I don't know if you've watched the last four weeks, but what's happening here is really, really, really crazy. The athleticism, the defense, the rebounding, the fact that he's starting to figure out how to create his own shot, how to be guys off the dribble he did to win the game in Boston last night. Like, what happened in Boston last night wasn't like, oh my God, what a great game. Like, he's been moving this way for five weeks and he's the best asset on that team and it's not close.

• 24:45Bill Simmons?

  I think he's an automatic hang up if you call Houston now. They don't need, they're like, what? No, we're not trading him. They hang up.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  This is a compliment, but imagine when he's good.

• 24:55Bill Simmons?

  Great. Imagine when he can shoot threes.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Right. And I don't know if he's, he's going to be like somebody you're really worried about, but there are things that he's doing. Like he was even the last, again, you're right. It wasn't just about last night against Boston. You're looking at these rebounding numbers, but also, and I like it, even though it doesn't look great, like they're letting him get into kind of a pull up jumper. And it doesn't look very good, but I like that they're allowing him or they would want him to make those mistakes. Because you're never going to develop any of that stuff. You're never going to become the best version of yourself, the most well-rounded. If you're afraid to do that stuff in game, like it's the old Ben Simmons thing where it's like, cool videos, bro. But you don't do any of those things that you show us in practice because you just, you've eliminated those from your arsenal because you're just not comfortable.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  And I love to see young players, especially somebody who's raw as him. And when you did the draft work on him, you're like, man, he's such an insane athlete. And this is why people draft guys like this. And then they get mad being like, oh, they just drafted the athlete. And you're like, yeah, but this is, this is the version of like the best case scenario of like, if this guy ever figures it out with his gifts. And the fact that he's like a 1% athlete, I want him making some of those mistakes. I want him pulling up off the dribble and maybe taking an ugly jumper right now. Because the only way it's ever going to get better is when he's confident enough to actually apply some of this stuff in game. So it was, when you sent me the list this morning, it was the first name I was looking for because.

• 26:18Bill Simmons?

  Cause the question is, how high should he be?

• 26:21Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 26:21Bill Simmons?

  You called him a 1% athlete. I think he's like a 0.1% athlete. I think.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  You're, you're the best to ever do it. I don't know.

• 26:30Bill Simmons?

  Just like, I, I don't like, I just think athletically, he's on some rare plane that only a few guys I've seen have been at. Like when we're talking like young Kawhi, young Pippen, Westbrook, Derrick Rose, those early years, MJ, obviously. There's, it's like a very small list and he's on it. And you saw some of the stuff he was doing on both ends last night, like even Tatum going by him and getting, you know, layups or shots. He went, Thompson's always almost there. Like he almost blocks it. Like he, you really have to work to get by him. I just love watching him play. And I think the thing that is probably so hard to figure out when he, where was he overtime elite?

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:11Bill Simmons?

  How do you figure out the competitiveness piece for a kid who's like 17 playing in some goofy league, right? The thing that's great about him is how like relentlessly competitive he is. Like I, I just, I'm such a huge fan and for whatever reason Jabari got hurt. They went a little smaller with him. It unlocked something and now if I were them, I wouldn't trade for anybody. You know, they're a two seed. They've had some big wins this week. I, I, I wouldn't mess with this. Just let's get, let's see how far we can go. Let's keep pushing Thompson a little bit. Let's nudge and see really what's there, short term, long term, and next year we'll figure it out or this summer. Right? I think that's the move because the wins they had this

• 27:54Bill Simmons?

  week, you really have to start thinking, eh, but what if they did, what if they did this? Could they like make the finals? We've seen teams like out of nowhere and we've argued about this in the past. If you have a chance to make the finals, how far do you go? In this case, I'd probably wait because I think all their flexibility comes this summer. Once they can trade those Shingun and Jalen Green deals. And so you, you want to know heading into the summer what to do.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  The other thing about this trade market, it is just a hit list of guys I'm not a huge fan of.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  It really is. It's the Masilo All-Stars.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  So Jimmy's the only one. If, if I knew he was bought in, I go, okay. You know, let's, let's do this. And you can figure out like where he fits in because as much as they need Van Vliet, you worry a little bit about loading up on a small primary guy throughout the course of the playoffs. Um, you know, Brooks is so important to them, especially what he does defensively. And then Jalen is kind of like an every other night guy. And I thought he turned the corner.

• 28:55Bill Simmons?

  You're giving him that?

• 28:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 28:58Bill Simmons?

  Oh yeah. I think he's a once a week guy.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 29:01Bill Simmons?

  At least right now.

• 29:02Speaker 04

  Cause, cause as great as we are, like as much fun as a man is and what he could potentially be, I still have a hard time believing you're like running something for him with the ball in his hands to like get you the bucket. Wait, I don't know that he's there yet.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  And yet they did it yesterday. Four seconds left. They ran the play for him and they were like, just beat Jalen Brown off the dribble and just do some crazy athlete thing. And even as he's like what you said earlier, it's almost like the baby deer on ice thing sometimes with him in offense where it's like, he's moving so fast, he can't even control it, but he still got the shot off. He broke Jalen's ankles. It's the most fascinating development of the year for me. As like when we're talking about, I'm not surprised Wemby is ended the way he did. I'm not surprised SGA is having the year he is. Neither of us are surprised about anything with the Cavs. This is Thompson becoming like a top 20 trade asset. I did not have that on my bingo card.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  I like the Cavs. I didn't, I didn't think they were going to get off to like a 73 win pace.

• 30:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's starting to fade a little bit finally. When you're, when you're shooting 50, 40, 90 for, or 50, 40, 80 for three months. I'm not going to go, I won't do all like the honorable mentions, second apron casualties, can't believe they missed the top 80, toughest omissions. But I did send you the list and the toughest omissions for me, I'll just rip them up quickly. Reed Shepard, Jaden McDaniels, Anthony Black, Klingon, Matherin, Dillingham, Beef Stew, who I love at four years 60, but couldn't put him on. Tyrese, Sohan, Thompson's brother, Peyton Pritchard, Mark Williams and Nemhart. Is there anybody that jumped out on that list? You're like, oh man, they should have made the trade value?

• 30:53Speaker 04

  No, because I think any of these lists, like the, the first thing I did when I got it was like, don't go, I can't believe you did this. Cause whenever you have to do these lists, like good luck. Like whenever, even though when I did the top 100 that I then threw away, so I wasn't able to submit it for ringer.com. Like I had such a hard time with 11 through 30.

• 31:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Cause I'd go like, do I really think this guy is like a top 20 player? And you go like, okay, well come up with a 20 names ahead of him. And that's the weird part of the league ranking stuff. And granted, this is different because of age and contract and all that kind of stuff. But I just, the, the names start to add up pretty quickly. I think maybe Matherin, just because I've loved. I've loved what he's been able to do in big spots offensively.

• 31:36Bill Simmons?

  And I like how competitive he is.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  Oh dude.

• 31:39Bill Simmons?

  He's a real, real alpha. Like, there's no way he hasn't had conversations with buddies, like, where one of his buddies is like, yo, this should be your team, not Haliburts. He's like, I know. Just waiting. Just waiting for it to become my team.

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Right. Like, would you rather have Kobe White or Matherin? I mean, on your list, you'd rather have Kobe White?

• 31:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because I like his contract and he puts up numbers and stats and he plays hard, but it's a good argument. All right, I'll bold Matherin. Maybe, uh, maybe there's somebody looking up.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  You know, like, I like Tari better than some of the names that you have in the top 85, but...

• 32:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, wait, hold that thought because I have to explain. This year is a top 85. It's unusual. Um, there were years in the mid 2000s when it was a top 40 and I was barely getting a 40, like barely, like squeezing, shoehorning names in to try to get to 40. This year, I really probably could have done a top 100. The league is so deep. You don't really realize it until you're making a list like this. So the top 85, the the highest group is Group O, quality assets, and just going from 85 to 75. Nikola Vucevic, who on the right night could have 40 points. Dejounte Murray, Kaminga, Jalen Wells, Herb Jones, Jared McCain, Walker Kessler,

• 32:59Bill Simmons?

  Kobe White, Jabari Smith, Deandre Hunt, Deandre Hunter has a good contract, and Cam Johnson, number 75. So that's the first group. And your question, I, Easton was a tough one for me too, because I really like him and I didn't know if I was overrating him or not.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can see like, hey, you know, what? What is he? And that's kind of the stuff we're talking about here with Thompson, where I tend to... I don't want to say overvalue because I don't think I'm wrong about it, but I'm going to value the guys with the ball in their hands that can get me multiple like possessions like, hey, Cade, like Cade Cunningham for me is somebody where you go, hey, fix this, fix us right now.

• 33:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 04

  And clearly it's different with Detroit now that they've actually invested in spacing around him, but we'll get to Cade when we get to him, but like that's always going to be kind of like my default setting of can you get me a bucket?

• 33:53Bill Simmons?

  Or can you stop the other team from getting a bucket or really like it's that simple because that's where I have some defense guys on this list that I'm like, I really value the defense.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  But I don't think it's a 50 50 split.

• 34:05Bill Simmons?

  It's not.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  I don't think it's.

• 34:06Bill Simmons?

  60 40. Thanks for doing splits with me. You know, I love percentages and splits. It might be 61 39, the more I think about it.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  See what's wrong with you.

• 34:15Bill Simmons?

  59 41.

• 34:17Speaker 04

  Giving us flat numbers like that. I was expecting like 63.5.

• 34:23Bill Simmons?

  So in this quality assets list, the hardest one for me, whether to include him or not was Dejounte Murray, who's got a fatter contract and whose teams never seem to do well. And I don't know whether it's his fault or not, but at some point, if you're going to hit your 30s and this just keeps happening where every team you're on is either disappointing or underachieving and you're one of the main guys, I have to look at you. But that's one, and then Kaminga was the other one, just because he's a free agent next year. And I think that complicates the asset piece because if you trade for him, you also have to pay him. I put Jalen Wells in there because he's playing big minutes for this Memphis team and he's guarding the best guy on the other team every game. And at some point that's, that's got to matter. Like they're winning with him.

• 35:07Bill Simmons?

  He always has the toughest defensive assignment. And I think for, for a team relying on two rookies like that with Edie too, like it's been, it's really unusual to see a team that's good relying on guys who it's their first year in the league and in like significant roles like, hey, Edie, come in and we're going to run offense to you and protect the rim. Like it's unusual. Anyway, I really, I really like Wells, so I want to put him on there. All right, next group. This group is called before the second apron shit, I absolutely would have hung up, but what are you thinking? So this is six guys, number 74, Porzingis, Aaron Gordon, Damian Lillard, Zach Levine, Drew Holiday, and Pascal Siakam.

• 35:49Bill Simmons?

  All the big contracts that you would have felt better about two, three years ago. Did, is Dame too high, too low, or just right for you?

• 35:59Speaker 04

  This feels low, even if he hasn't been my favorite throughout all this. And I do wonder too, like when we were talking about the Heat at the very top, like what if Dame had gone there and it was the same situation with Butler? Cause Butler's not getting the contract, would Dame be going? I just wonder if Dame at any point is going, this actually worked out better for me despite the fact that

• 36:20Speaker 04

  Milwaukee, probably more based on health than anything, has been disappointing. When you bring in somebody like Dame to pair with Giannis with this.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  The Gordon one is tough, man, because Gordon with Denver is worth so much more to them than as soon as Gordon is away from Jokic. He's just not going to be the same kind of player.

• 36:42Bill Simmons?

  So his contract, this is year one, he had an extension. So it's basically five years and 150. So it's pricey, it's not crazy. Right. And he plays really well with Jokic.

• 36:55Bill Simmons?

  So I think that makes his value higher just because, you know, it's, it's just to, Jokic is at such a crucial point of his career. And he's such an important player, not just for this generation, but just historically, like, I just know Aaron Gordon's good with him, so I'm not trading him, you know? It would, it would really have to take something for me to give up, give him up.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  So when you label this second apron thing, which I think you're absolutely right about, like Porzingis and Drew, and you wonder like after this version of the Celtics, if there's a second apron transaction that happens there with Boston, depending how the season goes.

• 37:28Bill Simmons?

  You mean in July?

• 37:30Speaker 04

  You mean emphatically, yes.

• 37:32Bill Simmons?

  You mean, you mean next month?

• 37:34Speaker 04

  Don't you think Gordon's a no because of basketball first and contract second, if at all?

• 37:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't. I just think he plays too well with Jokic and as long as, as long as you have Jokic, you have a chance to win the title. That contract's not prohibitive. The Murray contract's probably a little more problematic. You know, if, although he's been really good the last couple of weeks and I, I think we're all a little happier with what we're seeing. But I would be more worried about that because you can't miss on the $50 million contract. You can overpay a little bit on the guys making 30.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Levine should be behind him is my point.

• 38:07Bill Simmons?

  Levine should be behind Gordon. Okay.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  Do you like Levine?

• 38:12Bill Simmons?

  I do. I, I, I'm stunned. It's another shocking thing that's happened this season. Because I've watched him multiple times be the best guy in the court in games against really good teams. And it wasn't like once. We're talking seven, eight, nine times where it's just, he's really hard to defend and he's playing, I think as well offensively as he's ever played. And I, I just, I value the offense. He's a 25 points a game guy that can go toe to toe with whoever at the end of a game. You know, it's not nothing. Like I would rather have him than Dame at this point.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  Cause I can find, I can find point guards. I think it's much harder to find these swings that can create a shot. Like if Golden State somehow got Zach Levine, and I don't think it would take a ton. He would be so huge for them because they have no other guy who can create a shot other than Steph. And how many times can you run Steph in a semi circle and set him picks and do little handout? Like they have nothing else. They have nobody else unless, until Kaminga comes back. So.

• 39:16Speaker 04

  You're not wrong about that. I mean, the drop off from primary scorer to secondary, like shot creation guy for Golden State is so significant. And that's why, you know, granted, yes, I love Steph, but when he has like bad games, there'll be this group. It's usually like LeBron weirdos. Like, oh, how come Steph never like, I don't really love that content of like, somebody who's just done it the right way, has won multiple rings, first ballot, everything. It's like, can you guys shit on him for a couple of weeks? You're like, you know what? I don't want to and I'm not going to like, he missed some shots, but what he is tasked with to solve their problems offensively as the only guy, you know, other than the Schroder acquisition. And I know like you could

• 39:58Bill Simmons?

  And that which has not worked.

• 39:59Speaker 04

  My face, right? You could throw it right back in my face and be like, I thought you just started this podcast talking about you like bucket getters and you're absolutely right. Like there's moments with Levine where he looks like the most offensively talented player on the court, but there are just too many plays as a seasoned Levine watcher. There are too many plays in there that I think everybody misses. Where you're like, what were you doing here? Who are you helping do this? What? Why didn't you get back on defense here? And they're constant and they're all these

• 40:26Bill Simmons?

  He's flawed. I would fully admit he's flawed.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  There's a lot with him.

• 40:29Bill Simmons?

  It's the 71 trade asset. It seems fair.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  I could just do it. I know. Like I thought about doing a version of like something on my podcast where it was going to be one name, one game where I just watch one player the entire time, like that Julius Randall heat game where I just go, you know, I'm going to re-watch this and just watch Randall. And it was when you really focus in the guy that you're like, how come this guy always has numbers and how come his teams are never that good? And how come like he's so skilled? Like what else is happening around this? And you go, well, that's not good and that's not good. And that's, and I talk about this stuff all the time with certain players. And I think Levine's the epitome of that.

• 41:06Bill Simmons?

  Jalen's had a couple of tough ones. Jalen Brown has had a couple of tough ones this year in that respect. Like if you just watch him where

• 41:13Speaker 04

  Me not helping on the maxi inbounds?

• 41:16Bill Simmons?

  He'll end up with the stats, but if you watch the game, he does, he'll have games where he just does 20 things you don't like. And you could, you could make a YouTube clip. I just think he's had a really rough season compared to what happened last year where he really, I think, won a lot of us over as this guy has taken a step up. And I feel like this year he's gone back to where he was two years ago. And there's just really, especially watching them in person two nights in a row. It just, just is, he's got, been really messy this year and I'm waiting for it to. Not be the case anymore and I'm just not seeing it.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  But at least we know at like the highest level, he is, he's delivered.

• 41:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing. So you're hoping in April, it doesn't become messy anymore and it's back. But I'm just saying the regular season's been messy.

• 42:01Speaker 04

  But there are some scorers, when I think about their playoff resume, and I'm like, so you've been doing this for how many years? And there's nothing significant? There's not a moment for me to look at and like, look, I'm with you. There's, there's stuff with Jalen Brown and this year, the shooting and, but, you know, when, when you're that young, like we've argued about Murray, when players who are like, have had something really good in their past, have these, like, I even was stubborn about Calvin Johnson. I'm like, is he just going to be terrible now? He's just going to be terrible? And I feel like he turned the corner a little bit this season. So even though the Jalen stuff, I would agree with you has been frustrating. At least we've seen that before.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they say the resume.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Like, what, what are you throwing at me with Levine? And be like, remember, remember this series?

• 42:48Bill Simmons?

  He, well, he doesn't have it, but I do think if you're going to complain about the rules, not you, but just in general, the second apron, how hard it is to do trades. Like the one good thing that's happened with all of this is it's forced guys like Levine to be like, I guess I'm stuck here. I'm just going to have to play well. And he's had for what, for what he is, I think he's achieved whatever, whatever his talent ceiling is. I think he's achieved that. I also think now that Lonzo's kind of bad, like Lonzo's getting thrown in these trade rumors. He's an expiring contract, 20 million. If you watch the Bulls, I'm not positive I would even trade Lonzo. I kind of like the Bulls. I'm not even sure they should do anything.

• 43:26Speaker 04

  Wait.

• 43:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Cause I don't feel like any of their, they're not going to actually get anything for any of their players. So it's like, well, why am I doing anything? I'll just make the play in and try to upset somebody. I don't, it doesn't seem like any of their players are properly valued. It's like, I wouldn't just give away Vucevic. Oh, thanks. You're going to be two twos for Vucevic. I'm not doing that. I'm not like giving away Levine and taking back a bad contract. I'll trade Levine. I'll get Bradley Beal back. Why would I do that? Like, why would I give away Lonzo? I like watching Lonzo.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  They owe their pick this year though, so they have to get into the lottery.

• 44:02Bill Simmons?

  Then, then go higher and just lose your pick and outside the lottery. Let's take a break and then a really fun next category.

• 44:16Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike. And the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get

• 44:57Bill Simmons?

  to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Next category, possible studs on rookie deals. Going from number 68 to 62. Koulibaly, Sar, Messi. Did you expect this from him?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  Eves, I didn't expect this. I mean, he looks incredible. And he's so confident, too. But there's no hesitation on him, his aggressiveness. They, I feel bad for the Pelicans front office, because when you think about-

• 45:34Bill Simmons?

  They're 12 and 35. Like, and I like nine of their players.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  They have done such a good job through the draft.

• 45:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  And they have just, you know, their main guys aren't healthy. So it's not a mystery.

• 45:48Bill Simmons?

  I have him at 66, Ware at 65. A stunning turn of events for him. And I was guilty of saying it, too. It's like, oh, man, imagine if Miami had taken Connect or Jared McCain. And then Ware, the last few weeks, has looked like a, you know, the kind of young bag at a cheap price that anyone would want. Reese Shea, I'm never selling my stock on him.

• 46:12Bill Simmons?

  Well, Kason Wallace at 63 and then Derek Lively at 62. Those are our possible studs. On rookie deals and for trade value purposes, having those guys, if those guys can play a rotation role and you're paying 4 million, 3 million, 6 million, that's where you want to be. Next group. Nope, he's worth way more to us than you. Number 61, Devin Vassell. Now this trade value starts to get fun right around here. Number 60, Zubats. Wasn't prepared for him to be that high in the list, but I don't know how many Clipper games I have to watch where he's the best center in the game. His contract is three for 58. Too high, too low, or a right range for him?

• 46:53Speaker 04

  I love Zoo.

• 46:54Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 46:55Speaker 04

  I think he fights his ass off all the time. There's some good rim protection stuff in there as well.

• 47:01Bill Simmons?

  I think he's a big part of why they win.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  I don't know if anybody will do this because I'm not going to do it, but I'd love to know the success rate of pocket passes because I think a few guys like did it a couple of years ago.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 04

  And then everybody decided that when the big rolled and the two stayed with them, they were like, I'm going to do this sick look away bounce pass and then it's going to hit somebody's feet or it's never going to work. I think the success rate on this, this pocket pass that every player is obsessed with off of two staying with them is so low. Uh, but a lot of times too, they're screwing the big by trying to even throw it to these guys and Zoo for like the bigs that are out there. I'm like, you sure? Like I know what the play calls for and that you think this is the right move, but can the guy actually catch it? I'm a big Zoo fan, man. So I, I thought this is fine.

• 47:46Bill Simmons?

  Instead of a pocket pass, I would call it the tibia pass. You know, it always ends up somewhere between the guy's feet and his knee and the guy's seven feet tall. It's like, I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to take that pass.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  I don't even know if guys look like, hey, do you see limbs in the way of the pass?

• 48:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Well, then don't, don't make it. It's like, no, dude, two stayed with me. Have to throw the pocket pass every time. Uh.

• 48:11Bill Simmons?

  Zoo number 60, James Harden, number 59.

• 48:15Speaker 04

  The deliverer of said pocket pass. Yeah.

• 48:19Bill Simmons?

  So two Clippers in the top 60.

• 48:22Bill Simmons?

  Next three I'm going to put in a row. Number 58, Scotty Barnes. Number 57, Trey Young. Number 56, Jamal Murray. Big contracts.

• 48:31Bill Simmons?

  Contracts you had to do.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't think the team feels awesome about the contracts, but you kind of, it's like those no recourse contracts.

• 48:43Bill Simmons?

  How would you rank those three? I have them Murray, Haddad, Young and Barnes. Is that the right, is that the right order for you?

• 48:51Speaker 04

  It feels like if Paolo's eight, Scotty Barnes shouldn't be 59 or 58.

• 48:57Bill Simmons?

  All right, so I'm, one of the many reasons I'm glad you're here.

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't see this Scotty Barnes thing like some others, and I might be too down on him. But I do think when you're the best guy in the team and the team doesn't win at some point, some of that's gotta be on you because I like, I think this, the Toronto team's actually pretty interesting if you, if you watch them. They have guys all over the place, even like Agba, Agbagi. It's like a 45% three-point shooter. It's like their ninth man, like they have skilled players. I don't understand why they're not better.

• 49:34Bill Simmons?

  So anyway, you could talk me into him being 38 or you could have talked me into being here and I aired on, I haven't really seen him be an impact guy on a winning team. Trey Young at least has been an impact guy on a winning team. Jamal Murray won a title. Tyler Hero, who's number 55, and I think he's been a more efficient, better offensive player than all those other guys. I just would rather have Tyler Hero at three for 93 than pay the max for Scotty Barnes.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Well, look, this is probably the wrong time to be ranking Scotty Barnes because it's getting worse. The efficiency stuff like continues to decline over a four-year stretch. He's back under 30% from three. I think you always knew that he was a weird player, but in a good way because he could do so many different things, but. You know, back to like the primary scoring thing like I don't think he was ever going to be like a Cade. And even though Paulo like people would get on him with his efficiency stuff, especially last year, like that was the big Paulo Scotty Barnes argument last year. It's like, yeah, but are you watching the shots that Paulo is tasked with taking?

• 50:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 50:40Speaker 04

  All these other guys are out.

• 50:41Bill Simmons?

  Please factor that in.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  Right. Like, watch and see how difficult some of the shots are for this dude because he's he's left with the ball to bail them out of every one of these possessions. So I think if you did like a four year thing of Scotty and you know, again, it's your list. So I don't want to sit here and go through 10 straight guys.

• 50:58Bill Simmons?

  I'm happy to.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  Too low, too low, too low.

• 51:00Bill Simmons?

  No, this is one of the ones I really wanted to hash out like he's averaging 28 and six, 28 and six this season. He should 27% from three. And I guess my fear for him.

• 51:13Bill Simmons?

  And this would actually be a good outcome for his career. But there was that Igudala stretch in Philly. When he was miscast as the lead guy who's like, I'm going to be the guy who cares our offense at the end of games. And I'm our number one guy and guess what? The team never won. And then once that got repositioned as like, no, I'm actually an awesome, overqualified. Number three guy or number four guy. And I'm going to guard the best guy on the other team and I'm going to learn how to hit three point shot. And I'm just like completely additive and then he found his destiny. I wonder if that's Scotty Barnes. I wonder if he's just miscast right now as we're going to run our offense through Scotty Barnes. I don't think you're going to win games if you're running the offense through him. At least the player is now.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, but the thing is, I think his his playmaking is actually pretty good, but it's it's just. We talked about Toronto this summer. It's like, look at who they're paying, look how much they're paying all these guys. And there's nights where I like RJ Barrett, but it feels like everybody's a slot up too high. On a priority list for a basketball team.

• 52:12Bill Simmons?

  It's like a movie where they couldn't find the the guy to put on the poster and it's a bunch of. Character actors and role players and it's like, ah. I don't know. Kind of wish we had Nick Cage in this one.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  If you were Lawrence Frank and Toronto called and offered Scotty Barnes or Norm Powell, you you're not saying no.

• 52:32Bill Simmons?

  As a straight up deal though, like Scotty's making

• 52:36Speaker 04

  Well.

• 52:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't mid 40s, but that's part of the trade by thing. Norm's making 17 million a year, averaging 24 points a game. So you have to factor in the salary. Do I want to pay Scotty Barnes 45 or Norm Powell? 17, whatever the numbers are. That's what, that's where this gets hard. Cause if I'm paying Scotty the number I'm paying him, I only have money to pay two, two and a half guys that much money. Right? So now I'm all in. He's got to be one of my best two guys on the team trying to win the title. And I don't know if he's that guy yet.

• 53:05Speaker 04

  Do you think Miami would say no to Scotty Barnes for Tyler Hero?

• 53:12Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 53:14Speaker 04

  Really?

• 53:14Bill Simmons?

  When you factor in the salaries, yeah. If I'd rather pay Tyler Hero 30 million.

• 53:21Bill Simmons?

  But you might be right. That's why we're doing this.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  My fear is that because the numbers are down the way that they are and

• 53:29Bill Simmons?

  You know what?

• 53:30Speaker 04

  You know, even, even if we didn't like Toronto, which we both didn't like Toronto this summer and the record bears that. But you're right. Like there are some nights with them where I'll go, oh, like RJ's having a big night. And be like, oh, this is why they wanted Pirtle back, you know, but they've, they've also had a really disjour, like they haven't had much consistency. For long stretches this season of, of having a bunch of guys be available too.

• 53:52Bill Simmons?

  Would you, do you think the Celtics would trade Derrick White for Scotty Barnes?

• 53:58Speaker 04

  If Ainge were there, yeah. Cause Ainge would just go, give me the potential talent ceiling.

• 54:05Bill Simmons?

  But you're taking on like 15 million extra a year.

• 54:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, then now we're talking second.

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  Now you're second, but that's, but that's second apron's a part of this though.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. But that's, that's a different trade. You, I see. I don't think there's any way here's, whenever we're doing this exercise, right?

• 54:20Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 54:21Speaker 04

  If right now is like the only time in the last couple of years that we would say Miami would turn down Scotty Barnes for Tyler Hero. Is that when we're making the mistake?

• 54:30Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I, I'm going to move him down and I'm going to put him in a new spot.

• 54:36Bill Simmons?

  And yet I actually have a better category. You talked me into it. I'll move him up 10 spots. And I might be wrong. I will fully admit. I might be too glass half empty. There's a couple guys in the league I'm a little too glass half empty on.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  You want to run the numbers on it?

• 54:52Speaker 04

  It just, I was like, man. And maybe it's because I've been so used to the Palo Scotty argument, like they're 50 slots apart. On this one. And it's not like I want Scotty over Palo, but I was like, damn.

• 55:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, Palo's another one that I wasn't sure of the right rank for him. All right. So we'll go. 59 Harden, 58 Trey Young, 56 Jamal, uh, 57 Jamal Murray, 56 Hero, and then 55. Isaiah Hartenstein. Who is just a winning player on a good contract and I value what he does. When he's out there, his team plays better. I don't, and I, I just feel like. They wouldn't trade him. I think he has an incredible amount of value for them. And, uh, and that's that.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  Is Trey too low?

• 55:40Bill Simmons?

  Which way? Would you put him higher into the 40s or would you put him backwards?

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  Cause he's got a lot of intrinsic value to the Hawks, to the franchise as like their guy. And they built a pretty nice. Set of assets around him that complement what he does. You know, but I also, I'm not sure what his trade value would be around the league.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  Well, it wasn't very good this summer.

• 56:05Bill Simmons?

  It certainly wasn't.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  There was a big piece on the Athletic that spoke directly to that. And I know that like it's two guys that. Have caught the brunt of shit from Atlanta. I wouldn't even just say it's fans, it's like media members. It was like Trey was their guy. And then you're like, okay, did you see this piece where they basically said, we need to be completely different with you?

• 56:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That's your manner.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Right. And so you've seen it. You've seen it this year. You know, whether it's Deandre being better in his role and Jalen taking on such a huge part of the offense. Like, I think it was a little alarming that it took this many years for them to say, hey, Trey, you know what'd be really cool is when you have the ball, throw it up ahead to see if there's an opportunity to attack, like, kind of like

• 56:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, use your teammates. You got four of them. You can use them at any time. It's not just in the half court.

• 56:56Speaker 04

  That line, you can give him the ball before you cross that line. Like, no shit. And so, look, all that stuff was in there and they were like, they need to reevaluate what this is. I mean, it's not like he's taken 12 shots a game as opposed to 20. He's only down like a couple of shots. The assist numbers are huge. There was also another piece, like, I'm sorry that I'm just reading it and I was sort of just laughing as I read all these quotes. It was like, you know, I don't need to just hang on to the basketball and wait for the assist play. I can pass it to someone else who then can move the ball around a little bit.

• 57:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that was the You Think So Doctor Boogin' Nets quote.

• 57:31Speaker 04

  Right. So, um, I, you know, we both sneaky liked this roster for a while and I like it even more. I guess I'll never understand the Okongwu thing of like, every time I would watch, it'd be like, so Clint's still the better option there? And then they made that change.

• 57:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, every three weeks, Okongwu looks like Bill Russell in like 1963. It's gotta mean something.

• 57:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I guess

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  I wanted to put him in this list and I didn't, couldn't find a spot for him. But you could argue he's in the top 85. Um, hey, next group.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:06Bill Simmons?

  This is a one-person group. It's called, Sorry, I Can't Answer Your Call. I'm Taking A Long Sad Walk. Please Leave Message After The Beep. And that is number 54, Joel Embiid. I have no idea what Joel Embiid's trade bet. You could tell me that Philly has to attach picks to trade him. You could tell me people would offer picks for him. I have no idea. I, you could tell me anything. I would believe it. And you don't know either.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  I don't, but I, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't go, this is outrageous.

• 58:36Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't play basketball.

• 58:37Speaker 04

  No, and I remember like last year when it was, I think it was, we already talked about it. We did the Denver show and I mentioned the Zach Lowe part of it. I wasn't being critical of Zach, but it was just this accepted thing because of who Embiid had been. He'd won the MVP. That it was like, he was in the top five and I don't think you just automatically lose your spot when you're not healthy and maybe even if you miss a year. But with him, I don't know, I don't know what you do with him. I'd love to know what the contract negotiation was, like why they were in such a hurry to extend him. And it certainly took him, what 12 seconds to go done.

• 59:08Bill Simmons?

  12. I think it was four.

• 59:11Speaker 04

  Uh, I would, if I want to sound a little-

• 59:13Bill Simmons?

  Can I DocuSign that right now? Can you just send that to me right now? I got a DocuSign. I have it open.

• 59:18Speaker 04

  Don't send a DocuSign. I'll drive to you.

• 59:21Bill Simmons?

  I'll bring my own Sharpie.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  I, uh, I don't know what his value is, man. I just don't know that I'd want to be in business. Cause why is it supposed to get better? And for all the shit that he's taken right now for missing games and the Denver history he's brought back up. I'd ask the people that are mad at him for not, did you watch when he was playing? And like, you can come at me with the box score and all that stuff. The guy doesn't move.

• 59:44Bill Simmons?

  Just go watch, go watch the Golden State game. If, if you're wondering why-

• 59:48Speaker 04

  And he got his numbers. And he got his numbers. So you'll say, oh no, what are you guys talking about?

• 59:52Bill Simmons?

  No, watch the Golden State game. Just watch my defense.

• 59:56Speaker 04

  So if he's gonna move that badly, my point is I don't even blame him for not playing. Like, he was clearly marginalized when he was out there. And now people are mad that he's not playing anymore. And I, I kind of look at that stretch of going, well, if that's how bad it was going to look, then he actually needs to, as frustrating as it is for everybody. He needs to be missing games to not look like that anymore. Cause that's not going to work either.

• 1:00:18Bill Simmons?

  It was handled horrendously by the team. It was handled horrendously by Embiid. And it's gotten worse the whole season. And I know, I know a bunch of Sixer fans, all them are in that zone of just like, why aren't you just telling us what's going on? Why the secrecy? Why are you hiding things? Why is this so murky at all times? It's, you know, it just sucks the life out of

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  They may not know though.

• 1:00:40Bill Simmons?

  The franchise, the fans. But then say you don't know, because they tried to say in the beginning of the season, they tried to make it seem like, ah, he's doing some, some, uh, some knee management stuff. And he clearly is not going to be able to play three games in a row. And if he does, you know, the other thing, when he plays well, and they're like strategically picking these games where it's like, hey, Charlotte tonight, you want to play? Yeah, Charlotte. Great. All right. Let me, let me give that a whirl. But I don't think, does anybody think he's going to be able to play four straight playoff rounds?

• 1:01:11Speaker 04

  I don't know why.

• 1:01:12Bill Simmons?

  Do you think he played three? Do you think he played two? What's going to be better about this two months from now?

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  I don't even know how you would project to be like, yeah, that no, it'll, it'll, it'll just be fine. The Olympics thing was clearly a huge priority to him. And I think part of it was, you're not going to win a title. Like, you know, win a gold. And, you know, he's had some big moments for him, but for somebody who just doesn't ever seem to be right. Like, was that? Was that the best use of your time?

• 1:01:43Bill Simmons?

  Also, we've been basketball fans for a long time. We've seen some things. And the direction this has gone, we just have a mental history of other guys where we've watched this kind of arc or lack of an arc. And it's like, C-Web, no, once the microfracture surgery goes through, it's, it'll be fine. He should be, you know? The only one I can remember where the guy was gone and it seemed bleak, and then he came back and was really good was Amare Stoudemire. Especially in the 2010 season, that first stretch with the Knicks in 2011, where it seemed like he had hit that point where you just could never rely on him again. And then he did rally back. Embiid's carrying, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 extra pounds and more inches and everything.

• 1:02:28Bill Simmons?

  And I just think Yao Ming was another one. Yeah, his feet aren't good. And then all of a sudden, he was just out of basketball. I think with these tall guys, when it goes in this direction, the history of the league says it keeps going in that direction. Sampson was another one in the late eighties. Got traded to Golden State. Oh, this will go great. Oh, new team and his knees are better and he's out of the league in three years. So the fact that he's just not playing basketball that much is historically a horrible sign.

• 1:02:56Speaker 04

  Do you think there's a trade? Real quick, though, did you think of any trade that you would go, this could actually be some? Cause I don't even know how you would start the conversation.

• 1:03:05Bill Simmons?

  No, the, I think I mentioned this on a pod a couple of weeks ago. It's an all time bullet dodge by the Knicks. Cause I do think they would have gone all in for him last summer. And instead they went down this Bridges Towns path instead, which turned out to be way better thing. But I think they would have, I think they would have given up the goods for him. I don't know if there's another team though. I don't think there's a, you'd have to have a huge salary that goes the other way. It would have to be a pretty desperate team and it would honestly be irresponsible to, to trade for him with the contract he has. When you don't know if he can play or not. I wouldn't do that if I was an owner.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Would you trade Beal for him?

• 1:03:46Bill Simmons?

  So Beal, three years left this year and the next two, but I get out of the Embiid business?

• 1:03:56Bill Simmons?

  I mean, would Ishby do that? Of course.

• 1:04:00Bill Simmons?

  But that doesn't solve my Philly problem because I'm taking on another bad contract. I'd rather just keep my fingers crossed with Embiid. Next group, very valuable assets on very good contracts. Number 53, Nas Reed, who's like making 12 million a year. I don't, like he's one of the best contracts of the league. Lou Dort, another one who makes nothing. Norm Powell, Austin Reeves, who really should have listened to us when we were telling him to sign with the Spurs. Derrick White, Jared Allen.

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  The Spurs didn't listen.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Spurs didn't listen. Next group is valuable assets on not as good contracts. Move Scotty Barnes here to 47, thanks to his agent, Ryan Russillo. Shangoon at 46, Markkinen at 45, OG Ananobe at 44.

• 1:04:49Bill Simmons?

  I just don't love the contracts, but love the player. Markkinen is the one that I think has been the weirdest one this season. Cause he's just, his stats aren't the same. You're paying him as a franchise guy who can, you know, wait, last year he was winning games and beating teams. Having best player on the floor games, hasn't really been the same this year. But I also wonder if he's just on cruise control and because they're tanking. Any thoughts or?

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm a little worried because it, you know, it kind of gets back to that thing of like, well, if you've shown us some really high level stuff, then I expect that you're going to get back to it a little bit.

• 1:05:28Bill Simmons?

  And he's 28.

• 1:05:30Speaker 04

  I would say there's some Keanu George possessions where everybody else is watching that I don't love. And then Sexton is talented enough to get his. So now do they have like all these other dudes? And hell, when they bring in sensible and they bring like, there's just a lot of guys like it's go time. And is Lowry collateral? Because it feels like there's less opportunities for him to initiate, or is that something that people have figured out with him?

• 1:05:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Who's the point? Who's his buddy? Who's the point guard on this team who's looking out for him and getting good shots? I'm gonna say nobody.

• 1:06:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:06:08Bill Simmons?

  That would be the case.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  I don't, like, I still think that there is value for him. And but it did, I think it's a fair point in that last year, it didn't matter what whatever is whatever to the last dollar we can pay this guy is what he deserves and what he would get paid. And everybody else would be happy to give him that in a free agent world. And this season maybe makes you think of him as more expensive.

• 1:06:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, and also it's two guys Golden State went after last year and didn't get him and Paul George. And for what they would have had to give up for marketing, maybe, maybe you're relieved a little bit if you're Golden State. Would have been a ton of draft picks, giving up Wiggins, you're putting Kaminga in there. And for what you've seen from marketing this year, not that he's not a good player, but I just don't know what's your destiny if you're Golden State? If you're built around Curry and marketing, I don't, I don't know where that takes you. You're not in any different of a spot than like Phoenix's.

• 1:07:04Bill Simmons?

  Group H, always the toughest guy to figure out. This group's called, you realize he has no trade clause and he's 40, right? It's LeBron James. I don't, they're not trading him. I don't think anyone's trading for him and it's a useless exercise to talk about him. All right. Next group. Let me save you some time. Fuck no.

• 1:07:24Bill Simmons?

  Really fun group here.

• 1:07:25Speaker 04

  That's impressive.

• 1:07:26Bill Simmons?

  Castle, 41, Trey Murphy, 40, Josh Hart, 39, Dyson Daniels, 38, Desmond Bain, 37, Darius Garland, 36, Jalen Suggs. We're getting into some real trade assets now. Uh, I, I'm fine to admit that I'm overrating Castle if you think I am. I just really like him. I'm all in. I have, I have a house on Castle Island already. I'm, I'm in. I'm, I'm completely in on that guy. And the question would be, was he, should he be that much higher than the other guys in the draft?

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  In my opinion, yes. I think he's going to be a guy who could be a top three guy on a title team. And I think he's a really nice person for the Wemby experience as we travel through it for the next seven, eight years. That's a guy who can win titles with them. So I might over.

• 1:08:12Speaker 04

  I've loved, no, I, you know, I don't, I don't think it's because here's, here's an example that I would use. Like when we went back and looked at like Kaminga, right? You had Kaminga 83 and you had toughest omission, Tari Eason. I would look at like, okay, I've seen the ups and downs of the Kaminga thing for multiple seasons. So the idea that it's just going to turn this corner into something like really steady and that he could be a number two scoring option on an okay team.

• 1:08:35Bill Simmons?

  For 30 million a year.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, that, that's now starting to feel like a bit of a reach with Kaminga. Where with Tari Eason, even though it's raw or whatever, like he's out there just wreaking havoc on basketball games. And because I haven't really gotten to see the full form version of Tari Eason, like he would still be more valuable to me just based on the unknown. And then we know this game enough that like the unknown always trumps the known. And that's why Castle is a hang up, even if it's not like the best ver, you know? Cause whenever we see somebody young, it's just good. Like what if he can do this? What if he can do this? I don't know if he's ever going to be able to shoot it consistently, but I do know this. The guy is what? Two years removed from high school and he goes at like 30 year old dudes like they stole from him.

• 1:09:14Speaker 04

  He looks to fucking kill guys. So that mentality and all of that, like having a, a dude out there that is completely unafraid this early, like there's plenty of young guys. You're like, okay, he's just uncomfortable and he needs to kind of get through this. There's none of that with him. So even if the full arsenal of like all the offensive polish of even a guy like Vassell, um, I, I have no problem with him being this high because teams don't trade guys like that.

• 1:09:42Bill Simmons?

  I agree. I'm really interested to see what happens with them next two months and with San Antonio in general, because I actually think their record's lower than maybe it should be. We all went under on them. Or I went under on them. Maybe you went over on them before the season.

• 1:09:56Speaker 04

  No, I'm pretty sure I went over because it was such a massive jump. I think, did you go over?

• 1:10:01Bill Simmons?

  No, I went under. Just because I thought the West was too good and I didn't see the path for them to be in the high 30s. But they're in a lot of these games and Wemby's terrifying. And if Castle gets better down the stretch, who knows? Trey Murphy, I'm putting at 41 because I liked last year for him. I think they fucked him this year with the contract extension. Couldn't really work out all summer. Didn't know if he was getting it. Then he gets it. Got hurt. But if you've watched him the last couple of weeks, that's just the kind of guy you want on your team. You know, he's

• 1:10:34Speaker 04

  I think we would have seen this earlier from him too. One, with health and just more opportunity. It's starting to feel undeniable with him. And now I kind of just don't want some of these guys to get in his way. Because I think there's an awesome version of him that's just waiting to happen here. And I love him. So

• 1:10:51Bill Simmons?

  If we ran a team, we'd be calling Griffin every 48 hours. Like, ah, I don't know, maybe too many guys. What about Murphy? Josh Hart, I was shocked that I had him this high, but the guy plays 42 minutes a game, has crazy stats and he's indispensable on a top five team. And he's on a good contract. So I had to put him there. Daniels, we both love. Bane Garland, Suggs. No arguments on any of those. This next group, it's three people. It's called If You Tell Shams, I'll deny it to the death, but I am absolutely unequivocally 100% listening. Number 35 Zion Williamson, number 34 Lamelo Ball, and number 33 Bam Adebayo. And I think Bam would be the surprise in that one, but I'm just prepared for anything

• 1:11:35Bill Simmons?

  with Miami. I don't know what they do, whether they blow it up. Who knows? Like, is Miami hanging up? If you're like, we're here to talk about Bam, I just don't think they are. I think everyone on their team's available.

• 1:11:45Speaker 04

  I might hang up on you and end the pod right now for having Bam in a group with Zion and Lamelo.

• 1:11:49Bill Simmons?

  I, listen, I, I'm sorry. I could also put him in the next group.

• 1:11:54Speaker 04

  Just put him in another group. He shouldn't be in that group with those two guys.

• 1:11:58Bill Simmons?

  Okay, I'm gonna move him down just, just to keep you happy. So.

• 1:12:03Speaker 04

  It's so disrespectful to them.

• 1:12:04Bill Simmons?

  Same ranking, same ranking, number 33.

• 1:12:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's fine.

• 1:12:07Bill Simmons?

  He's in the next group, which is called, sorry, we're pot committed here. Okay. Zion and LaMelo.

• 1:12:16Bill Simmons?

  I, Zion, I would trade for Zion. I, I would totally talk myself into, he's in the worst possible franchise with the worst trainers and, and a weird fan base and a bad city for him. We, if we just bring him here.

• 1:12:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, it was the weird fan base. That's what.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  I'm just, I'm saying if you're talking yourself into, oh, if we could just get him, we can mold him. He's the kind of guy that gets GMs fired. Where you're like, no, no, we gotta do this because once we get him and then three months later, he pulls a hamstring and he puts on 20 pounds and you're like, oh my God, I'm gonna lose my job. Why did I do this? That's him.

• 1:12:53Speaker 04

  I agree that I think there's a second team market for him just based on history. This is like Darko and you know, Orlando giving up a lottery pick for him.

• 1:13:03Bill Simmons?

  Ooh.

• 1:13:03Speaker 04

  It's like, well, this guy went really high.

• 1:13:05Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no. I do, but wow. I didn't know it was that bad.

• 1:13:09Speaker 04

  No, it isn't because Zion's done more than Darko ever did.

• 1:13:11Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking it was more like the Chris Webber, Mitch Richmond type of trade where you're like, ah, you're giving us Mitch Richmond even though he's 33? Fine.

• 1:13:20Speaker 04

  That's a better one based on production because like the Zion thing was, was really good last year. And it's kind of like a little bit like the Embiid thing in that you go, well, if the market is this bad for this guy that I know I probably shouldn't be in business with, I'm still not going to trade him now. And then I think on the other side of it, not that this lasted very long, but the idea that because of the contract, like would they waive him? You go, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a market. There's still a market based on like the second team going, like if it were Pierce and Antoine Walker, you would be calling into EEI being like, we should, we should get Zion. Like that's the kind of structure of a team where you go, they don't really have that much hope and like, I'm going to be excited. It's gonna be cool to have Zion in my favorite team's uniform.

• 1:14:01Bill Simmons?

  But that could be Golden State right now. When we're talking about like hail Mary, we have to do something crazy moves. Saying fuck it and going after Zion, that qualifies. Cause if you strike oil with it, it's an amazing trade. If all the good things from the trade happen, it's the best trade anyone could make this decade. And yet it's probably way more likely all the other stuff would happen. It's one of the toughest trade assets in a long time.

• 1:14:30Speaker 04

  Okay, but in a vacuum, like if you were running a team and was.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't trade for him.

• 1:14:36Speaker 04

  Okay, but if somebody said you have to have one, like your owner calls, hey, I just bought the team. It's, uh, it's Bezos. Bezos is like, we need to make a statement here early, Bill. Finally going to give you GM job and we're also going to have like behind the scenes. You think, you think Hard Knocks was all access.

• 1:14:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Speaker 04

  We're going to be, we're going to be waking up with you. Okay.

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:57Speaker 04

  And you're running the team.

• 1:14:58Bill Simmons?

  24 hour VR.

• 1:15:00Speaker 04

  Right. So you need to trade for one of the two, LaMelo or Zion.

• 1:15:05Bill Simmons?

  I'd trade for LaMelo.

• 1:15:10Bill Simmons?

  LaMelo, I, that's another one where you can, he's a get coaches and GMs fired guy.

• 1:15:18Bill Simmons?

  His destiny, I made this joke many times, but his destiny might end up being an awesome basketball reference page. And you know, Twitter, Tik Tok, Snapchat, one minute clips of this guy was a problem and that might be it. But you watch him on certain nights and he just seems completely unstoppable and like he can make any shot and you could get seduced by it. I, if it was him versus Zion, at least I know he's probably a better bet to play.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Which isn't even a great bet. I thought the all-star voting thing was really interesting. And then when I went to look at how it was happening, when you sorted his position for available people to vote on, he's the first option because he was leading everybody in scoring.

• 1:16:01Bill Simmons?

  Ooh.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  So I was like, I wonder if that would happen. I gotta give Tim McMahon credit on this one because he was on with Windhorse and, and Bon Tems. And he was like, well, his style of play has been in preparation of the All-Star game. So he's a perfect fit. If he's named a starter, he ended up not being a starter. He shouldn't have been a starter, uh, based on what Mitchell, Garland, Brunson, all these guys have done. I, I think between the two, here's, here's the issue, wasn't just the Bam issue. I think that Zion and LaMelo should be behind group G. I think they should just be behind it because if somebody offered you.

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  So with LeBron.

• 1:16:37Bill Simmons?

  Right between LeBron and those other guys. All right.

• 1:16:40Speaker 04

  Right. Cause I mean, even though you can't trade Trey Murphy for Zion, if Trey Murphy were offered for Zion, the team says, yeah, we'll turn the page on this.

• 1:16:50Bill Simmons?

  So the Pelicans call the Spurs and they say, we'll give you Zion for Castle. The Spurs say, no way.

• 1:17:00Speaker 04

  The smart answer is no way.

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I think you're right. That's a good, see, this is why you're a great trade value conciliary. That's a good note. I'm like Mad Dog. That's a good job out here, Ryan. That's just a great job right there.

• 1:17:16Speaker 04

  SCP Russillo, she'll put me to sleep.

• 1:17:20Speaker 04

  That was, was, it was such a sad day in my career. I was in the car driving home, listening to Mad Dog. Yeah, he said it on the air. Mad Dog shit on Van Pelt and I, and I was like, I would leave ESPN right at four. I'd be driving to the gym. I would listen to a little Gottlieb. I'd check out what the dog was doing. And Dog was like, SCP Rosillo, ha, ha, yeah, put me to sleep, huh? Yeah, there's no energy on that show. And I was just like, fuck. I was beginning to do another Eagles rejoin from Scottsdale. I was pissed.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The good thing is, the good thing is you let slights like that, you just forget about them overnight. Don't think about them again.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like it never happened.

• 1:17:58Bill Simmons?

  Uh, we're gonna take one more break and do the top 33.

• 1:18:04Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

• 1:18:48Bill Simmons?

  Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault. You're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, 33 guys left. This is Group E. Sorry, we're pot committed here.

• 1:19:16Bill Simmons?

  Russella demanded Bam be put in this group and get away from Zayad Almela. So Bam, thanks you. He's 33. Mikael Bridges, Kyrie Irving, Jalen Brown, who was in the teens, I think, three months ago. And I think his dropped. And we can talk about that in a second. Franz Wagner, Kevin Durant, and then Sabonis. And there's a couple of the contracts here. Jalen Brown, four years left, 236.

• 1:19:44Bill Simmons?

  Kevin Durant, two years, 106. That's this year, next year. Sabonis, four for 186. A little pricey. But, uh, but that, what do you think of that order? Atabio, Bridges, Irving, Brown, Wagner, Durant, and then number 27, Sabonis. Is that the right group for Durant?

• 1:20:03Speaker 04

  It is.

• 1:20:04Bill Simmons?

  Nudge him up. I think it is. The age and, and team performance.

• 1:20:09Speaker 04

  But, you know, if, if Durant were offered to the Pacers through Halliburton, would they just go, yep, no problem? And we'll just have Nemhart initiate everything.

• 1:20:19Bill Simmons?

  I don't think the Pacers do it. It's too hard to find a guy who's like, I love being Indiana's signature guy. I think it would take a lot for them to trade him.

• 1:20:26Speaker 04

  You see Durant may just not be into it later on. All right, that's fine. I love, I love this group because I think this is where it really starts getting hard. This is where all the years, all the tape for you, Bill, is showing up. Because Kyrie, this is maybe the highest he's been in a long time.

• 1:20:42Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I'm a second, I'm a second chance guy. I'm a third chance guy and I'm even a fourth chance guy. Kyrie, not one of my, not one of my favorites for a long time. And, uh, he really won me over the last couple of years. He, he, fine, he's a late bloomer, but, uh, I don't know. I think this is the right area for him because if he's your second best player, you can make the NBA Finals. We saw that in June.

• 1:21:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, mic'd up, just leadership pouring into your ears.

• 1:21:12Bill Simmons?

  Coherent press conferences? Hasn't done really anything goofy in about a year and a half, two years?

• 1:21:24Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I think we're coming up on what, two years of him.

• 1:21:27Bill Simmons?

  Two anniversary? That should have been, that would have been a good anniversary for you as pen to celebrate.

• 1:21:31Speaker 04

  Be a good 30 for 30. Uh, you know, the Jalen thing for Durant.

• 1:21:38Speaker 04

  You think Boston says no?

• 1:21:44Bill Simmons?

  I think they, I think they'd have to, well, that's why I had Durant 28 and Brown 30 because I think if you're Boston and you have the chance to get out of the last two years of Jalen's contract and replace him with somebody that would keep you as competitive as you are right now, you'd, you'd at least have to have meetings about it. If you're Phoenix, why am I doing that? Like, I'm already like all the way in with this KD Booker thing. I like, I can't really deviate from that at this point.

• 1:22:10Speaker 04

  It just feels low for Jalen and I think because of this year, he's getting dinged too much, although.

• 1:22:16Bill Simmons?

  So you put him in the twenties?

• 1:22:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, but see, but I like the group that he's in because Sabonis is incredibly like, like the stats with him every single time. I don't even know that I blame the guy from Turkey for voting him for MVP. Um, I know he wasn't from Greece or something like that. Like he might've just pulled up and gone like, look at this plus minus shit. Like, are you kidding? Like that has to be the MVP.

• 1:22:39Bill Simmons?

  15 rebounds a game.

• 1:22:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:22:42Bill Simmons?

  The Jalen thing, four, four years for 236 and the last two years in the sixties, when we're in a second apron league now, it's just, it's, it's really hard to pay your second best player that contract. I think that's why he has to be dinged. It's not totally his fault.

• 1:22:57Speaker 04

  Okay, but like we were doing it before. And so what was the Jalen deal? Five years, what?

• 1:23:05Bill Simmons?

  Five years almost, I mean, it was like 280, 285, something like that. Now we're four years left at 236. So it's just a crazy number.

• 1:23:14Speaker 04

  Cause we were talking, um, we were talking OG and Anobi, we didn't really get into it. Like there's part of me that will always think like, you had to pay OG and Anobi five years to 12, fully guaranteed and give him the player option on the last year. And you know, statistically, there's some stuff with him. We were like, how does, but when you watch him, you appreciate him a little bit more, certainly when he's been more available, which I think has been a fair knock on him in the past there. But you're right. Like it's still 75 million light of what you're paying Jalen.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's 49.2 this year, 53, 57, 61, 64 in the 28, 29 season. That's alarming for anybody.

• 1:24:00Speaker 04

  Right. But the cap's going to go up and it's 65 million is crazy that number is. It's 65 million for him at 32. He's going to age well. And at that point, it's only, it's under 32% of the actual cap hit. So.

• 1:24:12Bill Simmons?

  I hope he ages well. I don't like the fact that he's fucking jacked. I think he needs to unjack by about, I think he needs to unjack by about seven pounds of muscle. After seeing him in person for two days. I was alarmed by how jacked he was. He looked like he should be with Jesse Ventura and Schwarzenegger and Carl Weathers in the Predator movie. That's like how jacked he was. And I just don't like that's your small, your small forward.

• 1:24:39Speaker 04

  Is Kevin Willis first team all time? Oh, yeah. Looks like he, looks like he could play right now. Like I love, that's always the Fred Lynn thing when he stops by Nessun once a year. It's just, it's mandatory, mandatory that anybody that ages well, he can be 104. You'd be like, that guy probably gets you six innings right now.

• 1:24:58Bill Simmons?

  Right. You just have to be skinny. It's just if you're skinny, they, they say it.

• 1:25:02Speaker 04

  And a tan.

• 1:25:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're, you don't have a pot belly and you're tan. You can play right now.

• 1:25:08Bill Simmons?

  Group D. Seven guys, budding franchise guys. Tyrese Maxey 26, Halliburton, Gulp, Karl-Anthony Towns, number 24, Ja Morant, Brandon Miller, Brandon Miller, Jalen Johnson, and Chet Holmgren, who would have been higher, but he's had two major injuries already and he's like 22. And I had to ding him. If he, healthy Chet Holmgren, I think would be higher. Anyone on that list, jump out to you in the wrong way or the right way.

• 1:25:40Speaker 04

  Towns has been great for them, completely won the trade. Still gonna be a little bit worried about what the defensive alignment stuff might be, but when they're rolling offensively, it's, I mean, it's just an awesome one through five.

• 1:25:53Bill Simmons?

  The contract for Towns, 49.2, 53.1, 57, 61.

• 1:25:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, he looks even better, too.

• 1:26:01Bill Simmons?

  But he's been awesome and there's no way he's not a top 30 trade asset. Where he is exactly, I don't know.

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  Nope, I don't think when, you know, as we get to the rest of the list that I've seen here. So there was nothing, I mean, I always could pick at anything. I guess I'm just kind of wondering, like, what is Ja right now?

• 1:26:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was the one, is Ja too high on this list? And should he be backwards? Just because Ja doesn't play a lot. And it's like these one off, then he plays two, then he's off one, then he's off three, then he's, then he's playing three more. It just seems like he's not available a lot and it makes me nervous if that's my franchise guy. He's like-

• 1:26:41Speaker 04

  Because it's true.

• 1:26:42Bill Simmons?

  When Tatum doesn't play, I'm like, what happened to Tatum? He's not playing? Like, I just assume he's gonna play every game. With Ja, it's like, whoa, Ja played a month in a row? Really?

• 1:26:52Speaker 04

  He's missed 19 games this year. He played nine games last year. And we know last year was a mess for-

• 1:26:58Bill Simmons?

  But they've been 19 games that he missed that have been spread out. They're sprinkled out, like two, three, one, four.

• 1:27:05Speaker 04

  He's definitely a, because Memphis is, is on whatever priority, like it's easily a top 10 team for me now, because I just am like falling in love with Jaren Jackson in a new way. Like, I always appreciated him, but now like this year, I get like excited to kind of see like- Wonder how they're gonna use him. I love Jaren Jackson. So there you go. And you're right. Like there's nights where I go, oh, like shit, Ja's in playing again tonight. And so when you look at his style of playing, I know he's talked about like, I'm just not going to be doing the same type of stuff. That he's in the second year of a five year deal for 197.2 million, but it.

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  It's that two major incidents. Don't forget to include that part.

• 1:27:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. This, this is a lot like some of these other guys that we talk about, whether it's Trey's value to Atlanta specifically, LaMelo's value to Charlotte. New Orleans going, look, if Zion's not worth anything on the trade market, we might as well just ride this out again and see that if he's healthy, because the best version of him, like we can be. A team that, you know, I don't know if dangerous is the wrong word here, but you understand like at least like a, a path of if we have all of our guys. And we can get frustrated, we can get impatient, but so many of these teams just kind of default to patience. That Ja's, Ja's probably a hang up on almost. 90% like there's probably a few guys ahead of him that are hangups.

• 1:28:26Speaker 04

  But I also could see people making, making an argument that at 23, he's too high because of availability.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  If Memphis called Philly and said, we'll trade your Ja Morant for Tyrese Maxey straight up right now. I don't think Philly does it. Which tells me I probably should add job behind Tyrese Maxey.

• 1:28:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. And Maxey, you know, has missed a little time this year, but that was the, those are the two that I put next to each other. The contract's the same. Maxey's only on the first year, but it's five years, two oh four. Like I said, versus five years, 197. Maxey played 60 games last year, 70 games the year before that. He's played 37 of 44 this year. His shooting numbers are down, but really that to me is a product of him going like, okay, Embiid's out. And I'm just gonna force the issue. He's taking a million shots. He's taking more bad shots than they normally would. So I don't look at his declining shooting this year as this alarming thing. I think it was just.

• 1:29:23Bill Simmons?

  He's been good lately.

• 1:29:24Speaker 04

  Shot difficulty. Yeah. So.

• 1:29:25Bill Simmons?

  So maybe it's Halliburton 26, Ja 25, Maxey 24, Towns 23. I think, I think that's the order. So I think Max, I think Maxey is a little more of a hang up than Ja is for Memphis. Just because of the lack of availability and some of the stuff that's happened. Are you okay with Brandon Miller at 22?

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  I mean, I could ding you because of the hand surgery, but based on everything you've read about it is that it's pretty straightforward and that.

• 1:29:52Bill Simmons?

  And Jalen Johnson 21, you're good with.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love Jalen Johnson.

• 1:29:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, me too. Okay. Next group, three guys, group C, only if they made us do it. Number 19, De'Aaron Fox, number 18, Steph Curry, number 17, Devin Booker. You heard me correctly. Steph Curry number eight is 18. Here's the case.

• 1:30:14Bill Simmons?

  I think you and I are probably among the two biggest Steph Curry fans in the media.

• 1:30:20Speaker 04

  Seth is probably third.

• 1:30:25Bill Simmons?

  Three years, 178 million is the number. He's 36. And if he's the best player in a pretty average team in the old days, that meant the team would have been good to maybe really good. Now it means pretty average. That's what we've seen. I just think he's, I don't think he's at a completely different point in his career. But he's at a slightly different point in his career. This, this version of Steph Curry right now would not have won the 2022 finals. I think there's been a slight, slight, slight aging with him.

• 1:31:01Bill Simmons?

  But I also don't think they would ever trade him unless he went into the office and said, you guys have to trade me. It's time. So it's a tough.

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  No, when he, when he had the opportunity to talk about the trade market, he did the exact opposite. Did the exact opposite. Bobby Marks brought it up when we had him on not that long ago. And it's like, this is what you want. This is what you want in the face of your franchise. This is the person that looks at kind of this lifetime professional relationship of like, hey, what's the best way for me to handle this versus the worst way? And the worst way would be like Anthony Davis clearly did it because he learned it from watching LeBron.

• 1:31:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The passive aggressive trade request, our roster's not good enough. Yeah. We need a big man. You have like five big men on your roster.

• 1:31:41Speaker 04

  And I just don't think, I just think it's a ridiculous way to like operate as if the front office is sitting around and be like, hey, do you guys want to be worse or better? Like, I don't know. What about you? Like, what do you want to do today? Ah, I don't know. Let's get lunch and then we'll think about it. And then it's like, oh no. The player said he wants us to get better. All right. Well, that, that does it. Yeah, let's get.

• 1:32:01Bill Simmons?

  Fine.

• 1:32:02Speaker 04

  We weren't, we weren't going to do it. We actually wanted to be average. But now, and usually that means you're forcing the front office. If you have leverage, if you have an upcoming contract, you hell is these things, you're probably forcing the front office in ownership into doing something they don't think is the best thing to do long-term. And, you know, LeBron's never cared about any of the draft picks anyway. So I think Davis is just basically saying the same stuff as him. So Steph.

• 1:32:23Bill Simmons?

  There are no lion's thing.

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  There's, there's no, I don't know. You know, nothing's impossible, but I don't know if that day is ever going to come. Um.

• 1:32:31Bill Simmons?

  I only think the only thing that would make sense to me would be Charlotte.

• 1:32:37Bill Simmons?

  If he wanted to like finish his career there, but that's just, you're punting on everything. And I, I do think some people feel like relationships are really important. And that they would rather spend the rest of their career, like understanding the impact of like, I was on the same team that drafted me. We won titles together. I ended up retiring with all, with some of the people I played with. I think he cares about that. So it's stupid to even have him on a list like this. Booker was an interesting one because I have him 17th. I don't have him in either of the top two groups. You could make a case that he should be. But I just haven't liked that. That team seems super disjointed and unhappy for three straight years. And he's the best guy on it. And at some point.

• 1:33:19Bill Simmons?

  You know, he's 28. Uh, I just couldn't get there, but I'm also willing to be talked into nudging him up if you think we should.

• 1:33:26Speaker 04

  I just think he should be up, man. Uh, I'm a huge Booker fan and I think it's been a bit like some of the Steph stuff that we've seen. I think there's certain guys from an efficiency standpoint, we just talked about it with Maxie. Where I can handle the efficiency being dinged a little when I feel like you are tasked with. Having to get your team out of so many bad possessions and when I watch them, I think he's still, he's still the guy I trust the most on that team. So if that, I mean, let's run through it. Like you think, you think of Jalen Williams, well, the Jalen Williams contract thing with OKC, I'm going to lose because of the flexibility and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:34:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, let's go through it. Group B, we can go through each guy and you tell me if any of them would trade this guy for Devin Booker. So I'll move Booker up to group B. So he's 17. Number 16, Jalen Williams. I don't think they, I think they would rather have Williams on the contract he's on, younger. His age is time to SGA and Chet and some of the draft picks they have. I just think they would rather have Jalen Williams and Booker. As weird as that sounds from a basketball standpoint, it's also a team that doesn't really make trades ever. So you good with that?

• 1:34:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, the contract, I can't win it. I'd rather have Booker, just for the basketball player, I'd rather have Booker play next to SGA right now than Jalen Williams.

• 1:34:49Speaker 04

  I don't even know how anybody would debate that.

• 1:34:54Bill Simmons?

  Hurts being on defense a little bit.

• 1:34:58Bill Simmons?

  Right? Jalen Williams doing, you know, between him and Dort, that's part, I think, what makes their defense so special is they're, everybody on that team can switch in all these good ways. And there's high end defenders. Like SG is probably the worst defender out of their crunch time guys. He's a bad defender.

• 1:35:15Speaker 04

  They'll either attack, the other team will attack Wallace if it's a size thing, or they'll go at SGA because it's like the best of the options, you know, so you can avoid Dort or Caruso or even Wiggins, who I think is one of my favorite underrated players in the entire league.

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  I like them too. Yeah. That's why it's so unfun to talk about OKC trades because it was like, I like all these guys who would trade. Like, oh, we got to improve the Wiggins spot. Do you? I'd rather like see what I have with Wiggins. And all these guys like playing with each other, which you got to value. Like, it's really hard to make a trade if you have chemistry like they have. I wouldn't touch it.

• 1:35:49Bill Simmons?

  You know, um, Thompson at 15.

• 1:35:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a really fun basketball trade. Thompson for Booker.

• 1:35:58Bill Simmons?

  I just, I'd be terrified to trade Thompson at this point. I just couldn't do it. Just from what we've seen in the last five weeks, to me, it's an automatic hang up. I just can't do it. I don't know what's there. Like there's like, the ceiling is opening up and there's like real Kawhi potential now. There's Pippen potential now. There's potential for all time guys when you're watching. This is, this is beyond just, oh man, that guy's really good. Like there's, we're at another level of it now. And everyone can see it. You could see it last thing with the Celtics game. He was the best guy in the game. He's in a game with Brooks, hits 10 threes. Tatum's in the game, Jalen Brown's in the game, and Thompson was the most impactful guy in the game. So I wouldn't, I would not trade him.

• 1:36:43Speaker 04

  Uh, I would trade him for Booker.

• 1:36:44Bill Simmons?

  You would?

• 1:36:45Speaker 04

  I would. I thi- I think this is where.

• 1:36:48Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't do it.

• 1:36:49Speaker 04

  I mean, we, we raved about him at the beginning, so I don't think anybody's in it, but he's, he's 19% from three for his career. Kawhi was 38% his rookie year. I think he was 38% his second year too.

• 1:36:59Bill Simmons?

  But how many years was Kawhi in college? At least three, right?

• 1:37:03Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:37:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So Thompson's, Thompson's at the stage right now where basically Kawhi was a rookie in the Spurs.

• 1:37:12Speaker 04

  I look at Booker as a top 10 bucket getter and we've seen it in the playoffs. We've seen it deeper in the playoffs. He's 28 years old and he's a motherfucker in the best possible way. And not in a way that like distracts him from the task at hand of the game, but I, I don't think he's afraid of anybody. I think when his, his level of like shot creation and scoring in huge moments is there's not 10 players in the league that are better than him at that.

• 1:37:41Bill Simmons?

  You know, I'm gonna, I'll move him to 16. I'll move Thompson to 17. And I'll move Jalen Williams to 15. My only fear with Thompson is this was, it's like, remember that five weeks when I'm, when Thompson was like, it looked like the greatest prospect of any swing man in 10 years. And then, uh, and then he shot 9% from three in March. So I'm, I'm just gonna be careful. I don't want to put too much pressure on him.

• 1:38:06Speaker 04

  Right. But it's kind of the weight of like, how often would we have ever said no to Booker for Amen Thompson? And it's like.

• 1:38:14Speaker 04

  Every day except for the last 12.

• 1:38:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's fair. 14 Cade Cunningham. Congrats, by the way. I know, I know you've been accepting kudos and plaudits for the last couple of months. You never gave up.

• 1:38:29Bill Simmons?

  You were, I think, driving the Cade Bean wagon. It's been really special this year and his team's not good. You know, they have some fun role players. They have some fun veterans, but the amount of responsibility he has game to game. This is the argument with LaMelo Ball. The LaMelo Ball defenders would say, well, his team's not good. Well, Cade's team's not good either. And that team is going toe to toe night after night and has a chance to be a pretty fun playing team. I like watching him and he's been really special. So he's number 14 for me.

• 1:39:02Speaker 04

  To carry this offense, back to the first part of this, to be able to do this, I still would like to know over/under. If I set it at five and a half, number of games Monty Williams has watched of the Pistons this year, you taking the over or the under?

• 1:39:17Bill Simmons?

  Way under. I think he's on an island somewhere.

• 1:39:20Speaker 04

  You don't think he's watched six Pistons games? You just, out of curiosity, you don't think he's checked in twice a month?

• 1:39:27Bill Simmons?

  They should be in ABC sitcom where he has to live with Killian Hayes. It's just the two of them in some beach house in Aruba. Just ordering the staff around. It's like Below Deck to 2023 Pistons. Monty Williams and Killian Hayes. Evan Mobley, number 13. Big win for me. You had your victory lap with Cade Cunningham. Huge victory lap for me with Evan Mobley. I never gave up. I kind of gave up a little bit. And then Jaren Jackson, number 12.

• 1:39:58Speaker 04

  Would you, you would say no, let's see, this becomes a

• 1:40:02Bill Simmons?

  I can't trade.

• 1:40:03Speaker 04

  A Cavs thing.

• 1:40:04Bill Simmons?

  I'd rather have size. I'd rather have the size than the guard. If I, if I have somebody who can anchor a championship defense and just picking that, if, if all things are equal.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  Like we've seen, there's games when Mobley hasn't played where the Cavs look just completely different, you know, and I don't know, I, I'm really impressed, but Jackson, who you mentioned earlier, that's been the stunner for me, you know, and that's a big win for Chris Vernon, who was always like, you guys are always, you know, shooting your wad about Mobley, what about Jaren Jackson, who has better numbers every year and has been in more playoff games. Jaren Jackson's been awesome and there's a, there's a fuck you to him this year that I really like, like I, that, he had that Wemby game this year where he's like, fuck this guy, I don't like this guy, I'm gonna go at him. Uh, he's had a few of those this year.

• 1:40:56Speaker 04

  I know the shooting number wasn't great, it's the only dude that I've seen be like, to your point, fuck him.

• 1:41:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like fuck him.

• 1:41:04Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I haven't seen that since Scoot in that international game.

• 1:41:08Bill Simmons?

  Our guy, we're not dead with Scoot, send to life.

• 1:41:13Speaker 04

  I don't know, I, they come over to my, they come over to my house and be like, is he sleeping?

• 1:41:20Bill Simmons?

  Anyway, Mobley 13, Jaren Jackson 12, I think that's the right order.

• 1:41:24Speaker 04

  I'm glad, I'm glad, I was afraid, I was afraid you were gonna do Jaren Jackson in the 20s, cause you get in his case with the foul trouble and the rebounding.

• 1:41:30Bill Simmons?

  No, he's, he's had an awesome year.

• 1:41:32Speaker 04

  When, when you think about what he can do offensively and the different ways that you can use him, um, I've, I've never been as big a fan of him as I am right now. I voted him as an all-star starter and I know that wasn't popular. Did you? No way.

• 1:41:48Bill Simmons?

  No, I, I ended up voting for Durant, but I stared at it. I did Wemby, um, Jokic.

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  Jokic, right.

• 1:41:57Bill Simmons?

  And I looked at Durant and Jaren Jackson for like a half hour and I really wanted to vote for Jaren Jackson. And I just was like, ah, it's the all-star game, it's KD, you know, he's the vet and I just, it's not his fault that his team is run in the worst possible way, but I really wanted to do it. I think, I actually wish I had done it. I think you made the right call.

• 1:42:21Speaker 04

  Well, very few media members agreed with me, but there were still like when the votes came out, I was like, am I going to be the only one that did this? And I think there were seven of us.

• 1:42:30Bill Simmons?

  I wish you had texted me because you could have talked me into it in like 20 seconds. I was that on the fence.

• 1:42:36Speaker 04

  You know, we're all impressionable to a point too. And it just, I caught more and more of him during this and then you back it up and you look at the numbers and then you think about what he does defensively and all these different things. And I was like, I think it's close enough and

• 1:42:50Speaker 04

  you know, standings isn't necessarily my tiebreaker. And I think that'll not be a tiebreaker when it comes to the MVP vote, if we stay on the same path.

• 1:42:59Speaker 04

  And I, you know, I think, I think that Durant, like the default and LeBron and all that kind of stuff like, hey, it's the All-Star game. It's about the stars and that's who fans want to see. Like I didn't, I wouldn't get mad about anybody doing that if it's close, right?

• 1:43:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if it's close.

• 1:43:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:43:14Bill Simmons?

  The LeBron on off court numbers, when we had to do the vote, it was just, there's no way you could vote for him. He was like a minus, minus eight, something like that.

• 1:43:23Speaker 04

  I think it's, I think it's a little, well, I did it this morning. It's, yeah, it's minus 4.6.

• 1:43:28Bill Simmons?

  No, it's, it's gotten better because they're playing better. When we, when we had to do the vote though, it wasn't great. So Jaren Jackson's played 45 of 47 games for the Grizzlies, which is awesome.

• 1:43:42Bill Simmons?

  And he's having his best season all the way. He's 23 and six. He's easily their most indispensable player and they're really good. So kudos to him. I have Davis 11. You saw the last couple of games, like he really big boyed Boston, the game last night, you know, he's, if he's playing the right shitty team, you really do feel like he could be a 40 20 guy. He's been really good. That a week ago, I was wondering if they should trade him to Golden State. Now Golden State's gone one way and the Lakers feel like they have some momentum. The Finney Smith thing really helped them. Like it, it feels like they finally have enough guys to at least guard perimeter guys decently now. And they don't have to play connect as much. So Reeves can be like the one guy you can kind of hunt, but that's it. Vincent's playing better. And then LeBron's had a

• 1:44:26Bill Simmons?

  little more energy on defense, just a little tiny bit. But I'm a little more hopeful for them than I was a week ago. A week ago, I was like, this team's done. They have no chance.

• 1:44:36Speaker 04

  Super impressed with them in person when they house the Celtics. I know people can point to the Celtics. What was it? Five and seven? But I just hate like how everybody just throws anytime any team loses. You're just like, oh, back to back up. You know, look at this stretch and I understand it, but in the Lakers controlled that game from the jump and it's very clear.

• 1:44:55Bill Simmons?

  And bullied them too. It was, they knocked them around.

• 1:44:59Speaker 04

  I thought they were really physical in a way that was, was like inspiring and not that I went outside and started, you know, fighting people, but I.

• 1:45:09Bill Simmons?

  That would have been awesome.

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  Well, I wasn't that upset. I wanted to get home and get something to eat because it was late, but I think D'Angelo Russell just being removed from all of the possibilities and all the possessions and all the stuff that he does that may not show up like, oh, look at the shooting numbers like, oh, look at this. And he has a better net rating than LeBron, all these different things. It's like, yeah, man, but it just, there's just times where you know, like, what the hell is he doing right now? And so their best spacing closing group was their worst defensive perimeter group.

• 1:45:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:40Speaker 04

  They were kind of stuck and I think removing that removes some of the stuff with them being stuck and I, you know, it's weird with them because I kind of like them. But I also think like the standard is that when they're not a true title contender, they get so dismissed and then we're just like, oh, they stink. It's like, they don't, they don't stink. Like there's seven guys there that I kind of like, but then I have to think about who am I picking them against in the playoffs in the first round? And that becomes more challenging.

• 1:46:07Bill Simmons?

  They're at least, they're at least a bitch in the round one. You like that from, that's where they've at least taken this season. The Celtic game, whatever there were real, the Celtics had weird coaching in that game. There was a weird energy. They'd played the OT game that before the Warriors game was the one that really impressed me. Because I thought the Warriors needed the game. They wanted the game as national TV. I wasn't sold on the Lakers at all, but they did the same thing they did to Boston on the Thursday. It was like, oh shit, this, this team's big. Davis is really engaged. LeBron seems like he kinda is starting to like the roster a little bit. And I really think Reeves, who killed the Celtics,

• 1:46:46Bill Simmons?

  has turned into a very fun offensive player and Reddick's not afraid to run shit through him and marginalize LeBron for a couple, you know, half a quarter in crunch time. Like if Reeves has the right matchup, they'll go to him. They'll actually use him, which they weren't doing last year.

• 1:47:03Speaker 04

  The other hope is that LeBron defensively is gonna be a different version of himself in the playoffs. Yeah, I mean, it's terrible right now and it has been. I mean, there's just so many moments you can look at and be like, well, if he has to move, like it'll be times where he'll, he'll help to where the help doesn't need to be there, but at least it looks like he's defending somebody. And it's like, okay, but now you just, you just messed up the entire rotation of the stuff. And I get it. Like he's 40 years old. And that's why there was that weird stretch, like 10 games in or something where they were winning games and he was playing out of his mind in his intensity. I was like, what, what is this? Like, are you gonna try to keep up this kind of pace? Like this doesn't make any sense.

• 1:47:42Speaker 04

  So that actually is a positive in that I wonder, you know, you gear it up, you have a little bit more of a break during the playoffs. If you can see a more engaged version of him where defensively he's just trying to survive the season, play as many games as he can, you know, help them be kind of a mid-seat team in the West. I still think some of their best offensive possessions is when he's initiating it because it would make sense because he's so smart and he's still so good.

• 1:48:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially transitions, the other thing, his transition stuff is still great. You know, like his ability to read at half court. Oh, there's only two guys there. I'm just gonna go through them and I'm bigger than them and I'm gonna get a layup.

• 1:48:18Speaker 04

  Well, as you get older though too, think about it though. How much, how much easier is to move when you know where you're moving? As opposed to having to move in relationship to the other person moving where you have no idea where they're going. So when, when he knows everything that he's doing, it's still incredibly impressive. And so that window of when he played that hard, even though I was like, man, this, this dude is like, it was a bunch of games in a row. It's like, he's really going for it. I wonder like if that's actually something to look at. We're like, okay, well, at least that had happened at some point this season, even from that time on. Um, yeah, I guess it's been a little bit better lately, but there was, there was a stretch.

• 1:48:57Bill Simmons?

  We'll say we the Lakers have been up and down, but they're in a nice little, nice little spot right now. Davis, so this untouchables group, group B, Davis 11, Jalen Brunson 10, Donovan Mitchell nine. And Mitchell's had, uh, I just love the year he's had. And they're not playing huge minutes. Um, he, they're, he's really deferred and, um, just seems like he's been an awesome teammate this year. And I think he's the biggest reason they're winning. Last group. So this is a big argument coming out of the gate. This last group completely and utterly untouchable. And I had Palo number eight. And I struggled with that more than I think any other name in the list, whether he should be in this final group or be in

• 1:49:39Bill Simmons?

  the group that we just went through. And I couldn't shake those first couple of games before he got hurt this season, how young he is and how I just wouldn't trade him. I just, I just wouldn't be able to do it. Like to me, he's a completely utterly untouchable, but is he too high?

• 1:50:00Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:50:02Speaker 04

  And it's that stretch. It's that stretch last year. I think he's another guy that you have to factor in who was available around him. Orlando statistically so bad offensively. And that also speaks to losing Franz for that long on top of losing Palo. So I think there's a lot of people that could try to throw, and he's had some dud of games, you know, some of the shooting numbers since he's come back.

• 1:50:24Bill Simmons?

  It does. I don't, I wouldn't say he's a hundred percent. I'm gonna, I'll worry about that in March.

• 1:50:29Speaker 04

  What I love about him is that I know he can fill it up, but he also wants everybody to be involved. And that's why I loved him at Duke. It's why I've always argued for him is that, you know, the difference between, like Jalen Green can't see the way Palo sees the game. And that's why I'm a Palo fan.

• 1:50:50Bill Simmons?

  Would you have him above or below Anthony Edwards, who I have at number seven?

• 1:50:54Speaker 04

  I'd have him behind him.

• 1:50:56Bill Simmons?

  Me too. Well, Anthony Edwards is our number seven. Taking some shit this year. Little bit of a backlash season. You knew it was coming.

• 1:51:03Speaker 04

  Knew it was coming.

• 1:51:04Bill Simmons?

  The backlash season was happening. I wish there was a way to bet on it on FanDuel.

• 1:51:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it was gonna happen in the Olympics, like, leading up to it. After his run through the playoffs, he was like, I'm the number one option. It's like, or.

• 1:51:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16Speaker 04

  Or you're gonna be watching.

• 1:51:19Bill Simmons?

  It's part of the process. How do you handle adversity? How do you handle annoying media questions about adversity? How do you handle tough losses? We're fine. Tatum, number six.

• 1:51:30Bill Simmons?

  Giannis, number five.

• 1:51:33Speaker 04

  Giannis is better? Stop. Sorry. You're gonna think, you're gonna, you're gonna be so happy right now. Giannis is better than Tatum? Tatum is the better value.

• 1:51:46Bill Simmons?

  Okay, make the case.

• 1:51:47Speaker 04

  Tatum plays all the time.

• 1:51:52Bill Simmons?

  They're about the same age, right?

• 1:51:55Speaker 04

  No. Tatum's, uh, what, he turned 20?

• 1:52:00Bill Simmons?

  Tatum's 26? So Giannis is two years older than him?

• 1:52:06Speaker 04

  No. Giannis turned 30 in December. Tatum-

• 1:52:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh shit, Giannis is 30?

• 1:52:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. Tatum turns 27 in March. So when you sent that, I was, I was thinking maybe you were doing that on purpose because people were gonna give you shit for the Tatum part of it.

• 1:52:20Bill Simmons?

  I didn't think that at all. I thought Giannis was 28.

• 1:52:23Speaker 04

  There has not been a day-

• 1:52:24Bill Simmons?

  Even the great ones make mistakes.

• 1:52:26Speaker 04

  There's not been a day where I thought Tatum was better than Giannis, although this year-

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  You're getting four extra years.

• 1:52:33Speaker 04

  And I'll tell you, like, Tatum this year, man,

• 1:52:37Speaker 04

  I think he's incredible.

• 1:52:40Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't agree more.

• 1:52:42Speaker 04

  The numbers may not scream it at you if you're not paying attention, but to see what he is doing to some of these defenses and what they're trying to do to him, and like Houston last night, the entire thing was blitz him, double him, and he was still turning the corner on some of these traps. And it wasn't like he was scoring every single time, but there's, in, there's, there's not something like that, that just goes, oh, wow, look at this jump, look at the shooting number, look at the scoring, because the shooting for the team is down, which is another part of the Celtics thing. This is the best Tatum's ever played. I've never, you know, much like I was talking about with Jaren Jackson, like this is the best I've ever felt about Tatum and the fact the age thing here is I think he actually be super ranked ahead of y'all's.

• 1:53:27Bill Simmons?

  Two things, responsibility, it's among the toughest in the league, what he does every night. Durability, it's surprising when he doesn't play. And when you saw, and I had saw those back to back LA games in person.

• 1:53:43Bill Simmons?

  Both teams' strategy was just beat the shit out of Tatum, make him work, don't let him get to his, if he's gonna get to his spot, make him have to shove his way there, always have a guy behind him, always chip him, like he's almost treated like the Pats treated Marshall Falk in that Super Bowl, that everybody's, every smart team's game plan is push him, nudge him, shove him, just make it hard for him for four quarters.

• 1:54:04Speaker 04

  Or like Ben Coats in the end zone.

• 1:54:06Bill Simmons?

  Bet, or my guy Ben Coats getting tackled by four Dolphins at the same time.

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  But he just keeps coming back. And that, if there's a one disappointing thing with me, with him, it's just like when you play like the Clippers backups, that's the kind of game this year where SGA is like, I'm an F55, don't worry, everybody can take the night off. And Tatum's missing that one, kind of, uh, look out, I'm scorched earth tonight. But that's it, that if you're gonna nitpick, that's really the only nitpick, where it's like, ah, tonight's the night where Tatum just scores 47 and we kill whoever we're playing. He's just not that kind of player, but I think it's okay. He gets everybody involved.

• 1:54:46Bill Simmons?

  And this is the best he's ever played, we agree. I can't put him ahead of Luka Doncic at four.

• 1:54:51Speaker 04

  No, that's fine. Although there's an availability thing going on there where it's not.

• 1:54:57Bill Simmons?

  That's why he dropped, like, Luke has never been number one in the rankings and it probably might not ever happen because of the durability thing with him. Whereas like Shay is number three. I have Jokic two, and then for the first time a new number one. We've only had, I think, 10, 11, 12 number ones ever, Victor Wembieyama.

• 1:55:18Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:55:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, not Chris. Wemby number one, I think he has to be, is great, Jokic is having one of the great offensive seasons in the history of the league and is the best teammate since Bird and Magic and Curry. And if you want to win a title, he'd be the first pick. But I don't know, from a trade asset standpoint, the Spurs aren't even like.

• 1:55:43Bill Simmons?

  They're not, you're, you're saying the word, hey, would you ever trade Vic? And they're hanging up. You're just getting the V and the I out. It's a hang up. So he's number-

• 1:55:51Speaker 04

  They're like, no, we were calling about a three way with Crecci. You're like, what?

• 1:55:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, they cut you back. So are you good with that?

• 1:55:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:56:00Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:56:01Speaker 04

  I, I don't know where this Jokic thing is going to end up all time. Because like this, this stretch is like so ridiculous. And that's why when we were in Denver, I, I meant this, like, I hope he gets another one. So that the simpletons are allowed to accept him into a higher tier. And I know that sounds like shitty for me to say, but I just get so tired of like, when I look at how people rank stuff, like, do you really want to be this simple? You just want to count stuff?

• 1:56:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:33Speaker 04

  Like, that's all it ever is to you is that this guy was good because of this and this guy was bad because of that? Then what's the point of watching any of this stuff? Happened a lot with college football, I thought this year too. And I really hope like Jokic gets the one that allows him to be talked about in the way that he deserves to be talked about because of what this stretch is.

• 1:56:51Bill Simmons?

  Would you put the finals MVP above or below resurrecting Westbrook's career as the greatest feat of his career? If you had to rank them one, two?

• 1:57:02Speaker 04

  Westbrook, Westbrook, I was thinking about this the other day, and I don't know if this is going to work, but like Westbrook's your buddy from home. That just, you know, has it dialed in and everybody knows the routine. You know, the girls probably maybe liked him when he was in high school or whatever. But then if you bring him to like LA and you've been living in LA for a few years and you should be like, hey, look, dude, just so you know, like, it's a little harder out here.

• 1:57:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. And they're going to be competing with like different dudes and like, it's up to you to accept the fact that like, you're not going to get into some places. And people are going to big time you and that if you recognize a guy from a TV show and you tell him that you're a big fan, he's not going to talk to you and he's going to walk away. And like, they're just going to smell the non LA on you.

• 1:57:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:41Speaker 04

  And you'll have to adjust and some people leave and never come back because they hated their experience. And I think Westbrook showed up to Denver being like, I do get it. Like I do, my hometown stuff might not work. I find Westbrook in this run funny because he can be almost too deferential where he'll like, want to get it back to Jokic. In a spot where it's not even like a great catch for Jokic because Westbrook doesn't want to do all the things that he's been criticized for doing in the past. Now, I still think- There's a version of this with the spacing with Gordon and Westbrook to close like a playoff game like, yeah, I'm allowing like, is that actually going to happen? But they needed him. They needed him. He was cheap. He was, and he's giving them like value minutes.

• 1:58:22Bill Simmons?

  He gives them durability, minutes and stats. They needed all three, but.

• 1:58:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:58:28Bill Simmons?

  I think Danny Chat wrote a great piece for The Ringer about this last week. It's the most unlikely connection of any two players we've had in a while. And for me, like, you know, as, as an obvious giant Jokic fan, this is like the stuff that made Bird and Magic so special. They could resuscitate guys like Magic did this with Bob McAdoo. You know, Bird did this with Walton in 86 and even like bit players like Sechting and whoever, Gerald Henderson. But the fact that Jokic took Westbrook, who not only was not an asset, but this might have been the only team in the league that would have signed him. And somebody were like, oh my God, how's this going to work? Holy shit. And then turns him and they have this like real ESP thing now and Jokic loves him.

• 1:59:13Bill Simmons?

  I think that's, I think that's such like a feather in his cap just historically that he can, he can basically play with any player in the league and make them better, which is like the highest level of basketball you can reach.

• 1:59:26Speaker 04

  Westbrook's really appreciated though. He's appreciated more by players than he is by those of us that don't play. Because I think they look at what he did at his peak and there is a respect for him that we probably don't understand as much. But you also realize with Westbrook, like which version are we getting? Because the LA thing with the Lakers was a disaster. And I think he resented so much of the dynamic there, which I can even see his, his point of view on that.

• 1:59:58Bill Simmons?

  He was disrespected, marginalized and not used correctly and then blamed for everything and thrown in every single trade room or possible. So yeah, he wasn't a huge fan.

• 2:00:06Speaker 04

  True, but I mean, it's not like he, like his style of play was going to lead to, oh, this doesn't work. Like, once again, the players expected to be GMs, or sometimes I'm like, do you not watch League Pass? Like, how do you not understand like how this is going to clog up some of the things that you'll want to do? Like-

• 2:00:21Bill Simmons?

  But it doesn't explain the Clippers thing last year, how bad he was.

• 2:00:25Speaker 04

  No, because-

• 2:00:25Bill Simmons?

  In that playoff series, when it seemed like his career was over.

• 2:00:28Speaker 04

  Right. The Dallas playoff series, when he decided to like prioritize just being like pissed off at everybody and taking himself out and like huge spots where you're like, what are you doing right now?

• 2:00:41Bill Simmons?

  He's a pissed off maniac.

• 2:00:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, right. It's like you can, like, you getting us any buckets or anything? No. So now we can't even trust you to be out there. So, you know, you would think that it'd be easy for somebody to go, hey, look, all you have to do with Jokic is just cut, man. Be, be ready and cut. And when you think he doesn't see you, he actually still sees you. So just cut. And-

• 2:01:02Bill Simmons?

  And then it turned out Westbrook was one of the better cutters in the league. Like, who knew? Been watching him since 2008 and, and all of a sudden, he's like this supernatural first step cut, almost like a wide receiver coming off the line of scrimmage. And Jokic finds him every time.

• 2:01:18Speaker 04

  We'll worry though, because there's times where you can see like in a game, or if he has like an open look from three in the corner, and I know the corner numbers are really good, right? But if he clanks it in a big spot, like the next time he may get that catch in the same look, you can see him just not want to, I've seen that happen. So I don't know if there's numbers that would tell me that it's, it's true, not true. But I've seen him where it's just clear as day, okay, he doesn't want to pull the trigger on this. And I don't know if it's like, hey, I just bricked the last one and this is a big spot. I don't know if it's him being deferential of like, hey, let me get it back to Jokic. I wonder with the Jokic Murray two man game in a playoff series, when you have Gordon, where you have that spacing decision that Minnesota always messes with, where it's like, hey, put Rudy

• 2:02:02Speaker 04

  on Gordon, because that way Rudy can freelance off of him. That gives Nas the Jokic matchup that Kat did so well with last year. Can you put, can you run the two man game if Gordon and Westbrook are both on the other side? And are you going to start like dealing with some real spacing issues?

• 2:02:17Bill Simmons?

  And will teams get used to it after two weeks of games where they're like, oh, all right, game four, now I understand what they're doing.

• 2:02:24Speaker 04

  That's the only thing that when I watch, I go, you know, I wonder what that'll look like then. But up until this point, it's been, to your point, for a team that we were like, where's the depth? Just his energy and even like a diminished version of Westbrook athletically. When he starts going and he realizes he's gonna get the ball back because Jokic is just that good.

• 2:02:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:43Speaker 04

  It motivates you to be, be like involved in all of this stuff like, hey, if I keep cutting, I get just all these easy baskets because I'm still so much quicker, even though it's later in his career.

• 2:02:55Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe we just spent three minutes talking about Russell Westbrook, but it was totally worth it because it speaks to Jokic, like the fact that.

• 2:03:03Speaker 04

  I look at, look what we did today. I said Trey Young was too low.

• 2:03:08Speaker 04

  I took Harden side and something.

• 2:03:09Bill Simmons?

  I was incredibly, incredibly concerned about that Denver team. And now I think they're fine and they're, they'll be there in the end. We'll see if they can get a buyout guy or just one other piece. Maybe they can dump Zignaji and have some trade flexibility. Anyway, group A, Paolo number eight, Anthony Edwards, Giannis six, Tatum five, Doncic, SGA, Jokic, and our new number one, Victor Wembanyama, who probably at some point this season is gonna have like a 40, 20, 12 block game with like seven assists. He's gonna, he'll have some box score that we've never seen before, but we've seen 30 Jokic box scores. I think I've never seen before this year.

• 2:03:52Bill Simmons?

  All right, that was fun. This is gonna go up on the ringer.com later in the week, the official list. My conciliary, Russillo, thank you so much for doing this. You have two more podcasts this week for you, right?

• 2:04:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, Wednesday and then a loaded football show on Friday.

• 2:04:08Bill Simmons?

  Loaded?

• 2:04:09Speaker 04

  Loaded.

• 2:04:10Bill Simmons?

  Loaded. Okay. Great to see you, Russillo.

• 2:04:13Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:04:16Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Russillo. Thanks to Kyle and Gahow and Sarudy as always. I will be back with another podcast on Thursday. Don't forget, you can watch this on the Billson's YouTube channel. You can watch the new rewatchables we did before sunrise. That is on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel, and I'll see you on Thursday.

• 2:04:59Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner,

• 2:05:44Bill Simmons?

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• 2:06:28Bill Simmons?

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