The All-Positive NBA Show With Kirk Goldsberry

The Ringer's BIll Simmons is joined by Kirk Goldsberry for an all-positive NBA discussion on the exciting NBA talent pool, the contending Cavaliers, and a better than advertised Eastern Conference (01:28). Then they discuss the surging Knicks, Victor Wembanyama's development, how the Hawks are finally rounding out their roster (18:10), the trade machine Nets, Nikola Jokic, the newly fun Pistons, the "zombie" Magic, how the Lakers are turning their season around, a fun 2024 draft class, the good-vibes Clippers, and more (49:37). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Kirk Goldsberry Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Coming up next, are you feeling positive, Kirk Goldsberry?

• 0:05Speaker 01

  I'm feeling extremely positive, Bill Simmons.

• 0:07Bill Simmons?

  We are gonna go so positive on the NBA, and that's next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop, only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th, and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required.

• 0:52Bill Simmons?

  See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may Increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 2:32Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables last night. We did Friday Night Lights. It is basically the 20th anniversary of that movie. Came out 20 years ago. Me, Malo Rubin, one of the best football movies of all time. It's aged really nicely. Are you a fan, Kirk Goldsberry, Friday Night Lights?

• 2:51Speaker 04

  Of course. I mean, it's Texas. It's like the New Testament of Texas, I think. I love it.

• 2:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, now the movies become underrated, which is one of the things, one of the reasons we want to do that podcast. Anyway, you can watch that on The Ringer Movies. You can watch it as a Spotify video podcast as well. You can watch all the videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can hear Kirk Goldsberry. He's popping all over the place on The Ringer NBA Show. He's written some pieces for The Ringer. He's going to be on in one second with me because we are doing the all positive end of the year NBA podcast. It's next. First, our friends. Bron. Pearl Jam.

• 3:49Bill Simmons?

  All right, Kirk Goldsberry is here. We are taping this on Tuesday morning, New Year's Eve, trying to put this up before everybody goes out. And we are doing an all positive NBA podcast. Kirk, the NBA has taken a lot of hits, even on this podcast in a couple ways. A lot of complaining, a lot of nitpicking, a lot of people forgetting what the league was like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago, and holding on to some ideal of something I'm not positive really existed. But what I want to do today is no negativity at all, all the positive storylines, all the things I'm excited about. But before we get into it, do you think this is overboard with people complaining about the season this year? Because I actually feel like we hit that point about two weeks ago.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I got sick of it. It is, we're toughest, though. Everybody's going through the holidays, right? We're toughest on the ones we love the most. That's one of the things you learn as a parent.

• 4:43Bill Simmons?

  Good way to think about it. Yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. And we have high standards for the NBA, Bill, don't we? It's, it's, it's a, it's a product that we cherish. It's been with us for our whole lives. So I think a lot of it comes from a good place, honestly. But there's been a lot of people just waiting, I feel like, to take shots at the NBA that have used this recent sort of news cycle as a chance to just get their grievances out. And frankly, it has, it has gotten to be a little too much.

• 5:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And, and, you know, this happens with anything. This happens with bands. It happens with actors. It happens with writers, where you, you just become convinced things were better five years ago, 10 years ago. And that's just the way it is. The NBA is really good right now. And we're going to go through a whole bunch of things, but I just want to start here. And we're going to go, yeah, I asked you to come up with some, some things you want to hit as well. I have a bunch of them. The number one thing I want to hit, though, is just basketball is better played now than it ever was. And it's not close. It's not an argument. The players are more skilled. They shoot better. The games are more high scoring. The scoring is better in the games.

• 5:48Bill Simmons?

  The defense is better. The skill is better. I, I would urge people to really watch closely some of these games. One of the things that's, that's changed for me, just from, from a skill level that I constantly marvel at, especially I went to Clippers Warriors game in person a couple of days ago. The ability for people to just drive and then throw these one-handed, perfectly placed passes to guys in the corner. Nobody was doing that 10 years ago. And now you have 78, like Tyler Hero is basically Joe Burrow in those. And, you know, you wouldn't think of him as a good passer. But I, I'm just so impressed over and over again with how skilled these dudes

• 6:28Bill Simmons?

  are. And I don't think people see it. Or the people that do see it, maybe we're not loud enough. But am I crazy thinking these guys are just better than they used to be?

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Hell no. In fact, I feel like somebody told me, you know, small ball was about, the 2010s were about small ball. We're halfway through the 2020s here, Bill. And we might call it skill ball, I think, because even the big dudes like Jokic and Embiid and Wemby, like, name a center from 2004 or 1994. Could they do anything that Jokic do? Maybe a game and Rasheed Wallace. There were some, there were some guys that were super skilled that could shoot the ball and pass and dribble.

• 7:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's basically Rasheed. Rasheed was the guy everyone pointed to and said, oh my God, this guy, he can shoot from outside. He can post up and we, we held him up to this crazy level and he was like 16 points a game.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree. And I think LeBron helped change that too. He's like, I'm going to be a five tool player to borrow the term from, from baseball. And like this generation does everything. Everybody does everything. Triple pass and shoot and, and skill has never been this high. And it's one of the reasons offenses are scoring so much. It's not just the lack of defense. It's these offensive skills have made the offensive end almost impossible to defend. So I think it's fair to say that the, the talent pool of the NBA, the 500 dudes in that league at any given time, this is the best group of 500 basketball players we've ever had.

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't even think it's close. And I also think it's probably the best top 50 we've ever had by far. Like I was looking at 2025 versus 2005. So in 2025, we're averaging 113 points a game. In 2005, we averaged 97.2, 16 points less. We were shooting better now. We're 46.4% field goal. We were 44.7 in 2005. Three point shooting slightly better, 35.9. It was 35.6 assists. We're five higher a game. They're shooting 21 and a half more threes a game. But

• 8:33Bill Simmons?

  Everyone points to that and really we changed long twos and bad post ups for threes and I'm fine with the trade. I would rather watch somebody shoot a three. I think when people and including me have complained about the NBA and again, we're trying to go all positive, there's a sameness to what they're watching and what it really is, it's not the threes. To me, it's the pick for the guy 30 feet from the basket at the top. It's the over and over again of two guys in the corner and one or two picks coming up for somebody like Tatum, whoever it is, Jalen Burts, it could be anybody. And just seeing that over and over again, the sameness of it, I think that's what people are thinking of. It's not the fact that we're shooting more threes because they're making more threes

• 9:14Bill Simmons?

  and we have more skilled players. I don't know how you fix the sameness and I'm not sure I care. Where do you stand on that?

• 9:22Speaker 04

  I think they've got to move the line and again, I'm staying positive here, but you started with the guys throwing to the corner. Well, one of the reasons those guys are so good at throwing to the corner, every trip down, there's two guys in the corners the whole time, every time. No, that wasn't true. There's just guys there. I don't think, and we're probably going to talk about Jokic and Wemby and Shay. I mean, if you're really watching the game, there's not that much sameness. And again, you started the podcast by talking about like, people forgot what we were watching. Like dump it down to McHale or Parrish or Mike Jaminski. Like you have to remember, this wasn't Jordan and Bird every night. Sometimes it was the Mavericks and Bullets. And there used to be some pretty

• 10:03Speaker 04

  repetitive actions in the post up era of the NBA that weren't fantastic, so to speak. So I think it is relatively fair, but it's not new to say that the NBA is kind of homogenous at times.

• 10:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, and the other thing, and one of the things that I think has been so great about this season, we have so many good guards, you know, and I look back to like that first half of the 2000s when everyone was complaining and I was doing my bit about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans. Even the guys that were the best guys. They were all like doing Jordan imitations to some degree. There were these guards that had the ball for a shitload. And even you look at the, uh, the all NBA and the all-stars from that. It was like, that was the Gilbert Arenas era. That was T Mac with the ball at the time. That was Kobe with the ball at the time. Um, like that was why we latched on to Steve Nash and the Suns so much because the style they were playing was different. Wade had the ball at

• 10:58Bill Simmons?

  the time. LeBron had the ball at the time, but it wasn't the same kind of smart offense we have now because the spacing wasn't the same. You had these guys that had the ball at the time, but they're also playing with centers clogging the lane and, you know, pow, we had power forwards back then. They kind of didn't know where to put them because they couldn't space. You had like the Vin Baker, Antoine Walker, like these guys that were just, I guess Antoine could shoot some threes. So Mario Stoudemire, people trying to figure out how to use these, these big guys. And now those big guys can pop out and they can do popping picks. And I just think the product's better. I don't, I don't think there's, go back and watch, go on YouTube and watch just a random 2005 regular season game. We were all like, what are we going to do about this league? This

• 11:42Bill Simmons?

  is bad. How do we fix this? And I think they fixed a lot of it. And to me, it's a positive, not a negative.

• 11:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, the three-point line has made basketball a lot better. Uh, the 2010s brought us pace and space. Dantoni had the, had the controls for those Suns teams, but also that sort of heliocentric offense in Houston that really figured out how to sort of spam a superstar over and over and over again, but to great effect to make their offense, some of the best in the NBA. I, I don't always love Harden. I know Rassilo and I vibe on that point.

• 12:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  But aligning that hyper usage superstar, that guard, that skill with spacing and smarter plays and high screen and rolls has been effective, uh, and made possessions more successful in general. Uh, but I think the game is more open. And if you like scoring, it's definitely more fun to watch now than an average NBA game. And this again, is something I've been noticing like Jordan this, Jordan that. Jordan was only one of, you know, one of 30 teams, right? So an average NBA game in the nineties was not Michael Jordan. Uh, and I think people forget that, Bill. It's like the replacement level game from the nineties was not a great product.

• 12:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, I have, this is another thing I have which ties into this. The watchable basketball across the board, I think people really take for granted now. And I would urge people to go back and look at the bottom like rung of teams in 2015. Like that was when we had Philly in the process. Or in 2005, you just had these broken teams that were stuck with these terrible salary cap roster decisions. Right? You had like the Marbury Knicks. You had the Celtics stuck with Paul Pierce and Ricky Davis and Vin Baker's terrible contract, which turned into Ralph LaFrance's terrible contract. You go around the league, even like LeBron was stuck on a terrible Cavs team for, you know, three years.

• 13:34Bill Simmons?

  You go around the league, there was 10 to 15 unwatchable teams. I look at the bad teams now and the bad teams, Portland, Charlotte, Washington, New Orleans, Toronto, Utah. I can watch all of those teams.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:48Bill Simmons?

  I like watching Utah. New Orleans is the most fascinating 5 and 28 team I think we've ever had in the history of the league. Like I watched them last night play right down to the wire against the Clippers. Charlotte's got LaMelo and Brandon Miller. Portland, where our Justin Barriers is located now, like Portland's fun to watch. They've got a lot of weird pieces. They have guys who can spring for 35 at any night. Compared to where we were 10 years ago, it's no contest. The league is so much deeper and more entertaining. Do you see that too? Is there anybody I'm missing?

• 14:20Speaker 04

  No, I was just saying the average league pass game right now is way better than it's ever been.

• 14:24Bill Simmons?

  Way better.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  Tonight's game, we have Clippers Spurs. That's not a bad game. WMB, we have Timberwolves in OKC. That's a great game. Grizzlies at Suns, that's a great game. Cavs at Lakers, that's a great game. That's just tonight. Those are your, those are your options on New Year's Eve. If you're going to watch a game before you go out, that's a great set of games. And again, we can't just judge everything by, oh, Jordan versus the Knicks was incredible in the 90s. Well, the Mavs versus the Bullets was not. And I think the average NBA game in 2024 as we hit 2025 is a very good product relative to where we came from.

• 15:02Bill Simmons?

  I remember the first year I did Countdown. There weren't five playoff teams you wanted to see. Like, I remember it was either 2013 or 14. There was just some Bulls Nets series that felt like it was going on for five weeks. You know, that was in 2013, we had Memphis make the conference finals with that like Zbo Gasol. Nobody could make a three. They had no spacing at all.

• 15:27Bill Simmons?

  There was some good stuff, too, like the 2014 Spurs were just, you know, a revelation and really great. And I think when people think about basketball before we moved into this three crazy era, that the 2014 Spurs and especially what they did to Miami, that's kind of the ideal for the old way of basketball. They tied to the 1970 Knicks and the 74 Celtics and the, you know, the Russell Celtics, just ball movement. Everything built around a big guy, guards who could attack. Those days are over because everybody can shoot threes now and we're just not going to have a team like the 2014 Spurs again. But I would urge people to go back, even Miami, who had LeBron during this incredible MVP heat check run and Wade and Bosch.

• 16:10Bill Simmons?

  They're pretty tough to watch in 2014, right? They, they could barely put together seven guys. Now, all the best teams have seven or 11 guys, you know? Pritchard's the seventh guy in the Celtics and could score 25 any night. So I just think it's no contest right now.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree. I think the 2014 Spurs are probably my favorite basketball team in my life. Uh, that's a special team for me. Uh, beautiful game, good to great. Manu, Tim, Kawhi, all firing on all cylinders.

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  Great chemistry.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, not ancient history, but sort of becoming old school. And I think that team was as deep as it gets to. Remember their bench, the foreign legion, had a bunch of international players. They were ahead of their time with ball movement, player movement and this international stuff. Uh, but spectacular aesthetics on the court. Uh, it's probably an unfair standard for an average NBA team, again, an average game. But, uh, yeah, like the games that I mentioned tonight, those are great. The Cavs don't just stay there. They're playing with a lot of movement. They're great on both ends of the floor. Uh, and then you get to watch the Lakers. So LeBron playing, there's just great games, great players, almost every, every, every game tonight, for instance. I think, I think the league's in a good place.

• 17:22Bill Simmons?

  Did you have the Cavs on your list?

• 17:25Speaker 04

  I didn't, but I have a related one. What do you got on the Cavs, Bill?

• 17:29Bill Simmons?

  I just, they killed Golden State last night. The Cavs are 27 and four. They're like, when we're talking about the, in the all positive NBA podcast.

• 17:40Bill Simmons?

  The Cavs are just great to watch. In a lot of ways, they've, they inverted what the Celtics did last year. Where instead of being built around these two great wings, like the Celtics were with three-point shooting and defense. They inverted it where they're built around these two great guards with three-point shooting and with defense. And if you, if you're not ready for them on the wrong night. Or you think you're ready for them, but you're not, or they're hitting shots, they're basically unbeatable. I don't know how this is going to translate to the playoffs yet, but um. But the fact that we have them and OKC, who is on a winning streak right now, who's going to win 60 plus games, who's just a regular season monster.

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  And then the sleeping giant Celtics team who just clearly is on cruise control now until March, April. But then some of the other teams we have, like just the depth of contenders at the top. And the unpredictability of figuring out, even though I'm in the, oh, it's going to be OKC, Boston camp. But like I watched Cleveland last night, I'm like, Cleveland's going to be tough. Like Boston's got to get their shit together. Cleveland's probably getting the one seed. Boston's going to have to win a playoff game in a series in Cleveland. And that team is about as confident as it gets right now. So I would throw them in too, in the all positive pod.

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I, I would say, you know, we got on here before the season. I said, Hey, look out for Cleveland. I think they could get the two seed. And right now, like obviously if the season ends today, they're the one seed. And then the other team I'd put in there. And one of the general themes of the, of the first part of this, the East isn't as bad as we thought it was in the first few weeks. Uh, and the other team I got to put in there is the New York Knicks.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Uh, and that's our sort of a related one here, Bill.

• 19:15Bill Simmons?

  Let's go.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  NBA is so much better when the New York Knickerbockers are good. And MSG is hosting games in April and May, bing bong. They've won nine of their last 10. Their defenses come around. Their starting five slash closing five is legit. They could pass the Celtics, depending on how your team does on this. Road trip in early 2025. They could be the two seed here in a few days. But I think the East has three very good teams. I'm with you. I'm still taking Boston. I think they're tired from the Olympics and their playoff run last year. But I think the Cleveland Cavaliers and the New York Knicks, we could sort of pair these and be like, look, East Coast basketball is good. And if Philly has a pulse now and can come around and Milwaukee's good.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Look, the East has as many good teams as the West right now, period. And I wasn't saying that at the beginning of the year, and I think it's good for the league and its ratings when the Eastern time zone has some good basketball. So I think it's if we loop all this together, I think it's a really good storyline for the league in 2025 that the East is pretty good.

• 20:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, don't count out the zombie magic.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 20:20Bill Simmons?

  They're just kind of wandering around in a dark, empty building with like, it's Tristan Desova.

• 20:27Bill Simmons?

  And he's like, fucking, where'd this guy come from?

• 20:31Bill Simmons?

  You know, the Knicks, they're a half game behind the Celtics. All the Celtic fans I know, including myself, are very focused on it. They have two players playing just out of control, fantastic. And I want to talk about them in a little bit. The big thing for them is they got Bridges going. And I remember saying at the start of the year, I don't know, three weeks in, I was like, what was the point of this Bridges trade if they're just going to make him this accessory that stands in the corner? Like, this is a really good offensive player. Who's, we've watched him carry a Nets team a couple of years ago and they would actually run crunch time stuff. Why are they just kind of sticking him over there? You look at his November stats. He was, you know, 14.7 points a game. 29% from three.

• 21:16Bill Simmons?

  He took in November, 15 games. How many free throws do you think he took?

• 21:23Speaker 04

  He should average two a game, so I'd say 30.

• 21:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he took six. So I look at that and I'm just like, you're just playing in this guy in the corner. And that was what the eye test was backing him up. But in December, it really seems like they tried to get him involved. He had that big day last week, but he's at 21 and a half a game now. And it's, he's kind of moved into that, him and Ananobi kind of sharing that number three scorer thing. Some of that's predictable, but some of it, you know, was seemed pretty bleak for him in November. It's like, what are we doing with this guy, especially with everything you gave up? Now, I think they they've figured out at least the four. They're they're the thing that worries me about them is there's going to be a couple of buyout guys in February. And that's a number one buyout candidate team because you're going to a team that

• 22:11Bill Simmons?

  has a chance to make the finals. You're going to play. You get to be in New York City. You know that if I'm making like buyout destination, if I'm whoever, I'm looking at them.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  It's too bad. There's not a Villanova center that they could put next to town. So I don't think they have.

• 22:28Bill Simmons?

  But who else is on that team? Is Chris Jenkins available?

• 22:32Speaker 04

  That's exactly right. But that's it. All seriousness, if like, I love OKC because they have two different front court looks when Chet's right and Hartenstein's right.

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  I feel like that's the weakness right now, especially against Porzingis or Giannis. They need, and I'm not sure what Mitchell Robinson is going to bring come playoff time, but if they can get a real sturdy five, they're not going to get a Gobert, but just a traditional five that could let them go big, play big against some of these rim pressuring teams, especially Milwaukee or Philadelphia. I think they're in great shape. Now their defense is already, I think it's number two in the last 10 games. They've won nine of those 10 games. Their defense is good. I just, if they really want to get over the hump, though, I think they need to have a couple of different looks in that front court. And right now, that's sort of the weakness with towns only. Maybe a little Mitch Robinson

• 23:22Speaker 04

  in there. I think they need, they miss Hartenstein, somebody like that. If they could get on the buyout market or even a trade market, somebody could come in and give them a traditional five up front.

• 23:33Bill Simmons?

  I want to keep going on the next, but let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit WeatherTech. ...com today. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to

• 24:15Bill Simmons?

  the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents, 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different.

• 24:57Bill Simmons?

  While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 as a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FTIC. All right, two more things on the Knicks that tie into what you said about why this has been a good season in the all positive NBA podcast. We have to keep going on this. One, Towns. Last two years, 21, eight rebounds. He's 50-40 guy. I kind of felt like he had maxed out from a potential standpoint, but it was hard to

• 25:41Bill Simmons?

  tell how much had to do with Gobert being on the court with him. He was always 25 feet from the basket on offense. Ant was starting to have the ball a lot and it was like, wow. Maybe on this Knicks team, there's a case. If you're playing him as like the stretch five, but he also has this rebounding block shop burden. Maybe, maybe there's something else here. Well, there's something else here. He's 24 and a half points, 13.5 rebounds, 55% field goal, 45% from three. Eye test wise, the most fun I've had watching him. And the concerns we had in the summer about, ah, this guy in New York. I don't know, man. He's a little weird.

• 26:24Bill Simmons?

  I don't, this kid, there's a version of this where this goes bad. It's been the opposite. I think this is, actually they brought out the best in him and I think they've really responded to him. And I think they have a great fan base. I think they understand like, let's constantly get this guy going. Let's really be super duper, super duper supportive of him. And it's working. And this is the most fun I've had watching him play basketball on top of the Brunson piece and how good those guys are playing off each other already. You know, and that's only going to get better as the season goes. So gigantic win. Did you see this from Towns? Had you given up?

• 27:01Speaker 04

  No, this team, this front office has made me feel dumb over and over again. I didn't, I didn't love the Brunson deal. I didn't hate it by any means, but I certainly didn't see that coming. And then the trade, I thought I'd like to trade better for Minnesota.

• 27:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  Hand up. And credit to Towns, credit to Leon Rose, credit to Tom Thibodeau. They've won that trade, I think hands down. The Bridges trade again, looked like a disaster there for a few weeks. I'm not sure I love it to this point, given how much they gave up. But this team now looks very good and all of those, all those transactions look great. The, the Bridges one, I'll, I'll reserve some judgment for it until we, until we fully see it. But Towns, I didn't see this. I was worried about him in the New York media as well. I'm still worried about him as the primary interior defender in the playoffs. Like I said, I think that's a fair point to sort of hold back. Uh, but Towns and company have proved me wrong.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  They built this team and then Arrowware trades and free agency are sort of less powerful than ever. And the best teams, teams tend to be building with the draft more. The New York Knicks sort of built this team from other teams' players and it's very good. And I, I think they deserve credit for it, uh, but it's, it's working very well, Bill.

• 28:15Bill Simmons?

  They took a, a real gamble with how expensive that deal was. And you're like, and we talked about it last summer. I didn't love the deal for either team. It made more sense from a talent standpoint for the Knicks, but the money was so disarming. You just look at it, you're like, man, if we miss on this, there's no moves up, man. We are, we are now pushing all the chips in, but it worked out and it's been great. And I really liked Towns, even though he's such a dumbass sometimes on the court and we would always, Russell and I would always make fun of him during the playoffs because he would just, you know, get the fifth foul in the third quarter and the worst 40 feet from the basket, just bumping over somebody on a pick. But he seems like a good guy and by all accounts,

• 28:59Bill Simmons?

  he is. And you could see when he came back to Minnesota, you know, what he meant to the franchise, but just how his Knicks teammates reacted to him in Minnesota when they showed the video. It's just like, clearly really liked. And I'm just glad it worked out because we've seen this league, a lot of these guys, sometimes when it feels like they can go either way from a talent standpoint, sometimes it goes the wrong way. Like you look at Zion right now. Leading to the second thing, this, this I also love about the league and the all positive NBA podcast. Dallas not looking, locking up Jalen Brunson leads to this amazing

• 29:39Bill Simmons?

  kind of sliding doors, domino situation. It leads to Brunson and New York and all of these other things that happen with them where they become a really fun, legitimate contender for a fan base that's needed it for 20 years. It eventually leads to Kyrie in Dallas and him rejuvenating his career. And I, you know, being one of the 15 to 20 most fun guys to watch in the league again, I, I'd given up on that. It happened. It caused a Brooklyn rebuild. Because Kyrie had a chance to go to Dallas, right? So that leads to whatever and, and, uh, and them trading Kyrie and KD. So why is the Brooklyn rebuild important?

• 30:21Bill Simmons?

  Because Donovan Mitchell, who wanted to go to New York City, and I will die on that hill, had nowhere to go. Brunson goes to the Knicks, becomes the guy. Well, he can't go there.

• 30:33Bill Simmons?

  Brooklyn sucks. Well, what, what am I going to go there for? And you kind of, it's like, you know what you got. You don't know what you don't have. And he's looking around this Cleveland team and it's like, man, this team's really good. Maybe I should, maybe I should stop thinking about what's next and just kind of lock it down here. Signs the extension. Now they become a legitimate contender. That team falls into place. That team's super selfless. And honestly, as weird as it sounds, I think it starts with the Brunson thing. And now we have a Knicks legitimate contender. We have Kyrie as a piece of a finals team last year. We have the Cavs as a legitimate contender and Brooklyn as the most fun summer team next summer.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a great take. I love that. And I think like the Western Conference talent, like Bronson, Donovan Mitchell and Towns going from west to east. We talked about-

• 31:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that helps us.

• 31:23Speaker 04

  The Celtics are the favorites, but the Eastern Conference needed, needed a talent infusion. And I think these transactions sort of bolstered, again, the Cavaliers or a story of Donovan Mitchell going to Cleveland. And then this Knicks team has two really big Western Conference imports at the top of the box score every night. So I think that, those transactions, that's a great point. So now who can we get from the Western Conference to movies next, Bill? I mean, it's like-

• 31:48Bill Simmons?

  Zion.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  So much more-

• 31:49Bill Simmons?

  Zion's next.

• 31:50Speaker 04

  There you go. Who can save Zion?

• 31:52Bill Simmons?

  One other thing with Brunson, and then you're up next with positive. I'm just in disbelief how good Brunson is. And I think we take it for granted now in a way because he's just does it night after night with this herky jerky, these different spots of the court, his ability even at the end of games to always get the shot he wants. The crunch time stats with him are out of control. Like John Schuman had in his power rankings thing yesterday that Brunson, he was on a crunch time streak where his usage rate was like 46%, which is like, you know, 98 finals, Jordan, not, not as high as, as that. And over and over again,

• 32:31Bill Simmons?

  teams know what they're going to do. And he gets the shot he wants. I actually liked the signing for them when they, when they got him because I really liked Brunson. I also never in a million years thought he was going to be this good. I thought he could be the piece of a really good team. Maybe the, maybe the, the best guard on a contender. Not this. And you watch him night to night and all the other guys kind of makes sense as awesome crunch time guys, even somebody like Shay, it's very old school. He's just gonna get, he's either gonna get to the rim or he's gonna get like his little 12 to 15 spot. I've seen that. I've seen there are guys in the seventies that did that. The Brunson thing, I don't know if I've seen before, that like his arsenal of weird shots and, and

• 33:16Bill Simmons?

  hurky jerky, he'd be a fucking nightmare to defend. Anyway, I wanted to mention that.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's also a great, you know, uh, sort of rebuke of the idea that everybody plays the same. Here's this undersized guard going and playing two feet in the paint like John Wooden is his coach. Right. Doing all these pivots and drop steps and floaters and pull ups and he's just so talented and so smart with, he's got the Kevin McHale footwork as a guard.

• 33:41Bill Simmons?

  It's a great point.

• 33:41Speaker 04

  In the paint and it's, it's brilliant to watch, but dude, if the, if the Mavs knew that this guy was gonna be putting up 50 in playoff games, I think they would have had a different whiteboard strategy before they let him go. I think he would still be in Dallas. Nobody saw this coming. I don't think the Knicks knew he could do this. And of course they should say, hey, he did.

• 34:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Man, he's been a revelation. Uh, and the other thing I'd say just on the Knicks is it's not only they're good. You mentioned this earlier, the vibes are immaculate and they're fun. They're a fun group of guys. It's a fun team to watch. Might be hard for a Celtics fan to admit, but it's sort of a neutral.

• 34:16Bill Simmons?

  No, I, I like the Knicks. I, cause they're fans. They have great fans and they have a great building and the league's better when the Knicks are involved.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  And I hope we see Jalen Brunson playing your team in the conference semis between Boston and, and New York. That would be absolutely a dream come true for the Eastern Conference playoffs this year.

• 34:35Bill Simmons?

  It's an awesome, awesome, awesome matchup. And I, the, the fear for me is just the miles they've had to put on Al Horford already, combined with Porzingis, who just can't seem to play two games in a row. Um, you know, I think the Celts match up great with them. And in a way, that's probably the team the Knicks wouldn't, I would think definitely the team the Knicks wouldn't want to face because they just have these guards that they can throw at Brunson, they can counter Towns with their own stretch fives, and then they have these wings that are better than the Knicks wings. But we might not ever see that Celtics team this year. I mean, I, again, this is the all positive NBA pod, but you really need luck with health,

• 35:16Bill Simmons?

  and they had luck with Jalen and Tatum all decade. You know, they got luck with Porzingis for the most part, they were able to get to the playoffs and get just enough out of them to make it. They got luck with White and Horford. And we know with the NBA, like, you can't count on that year to year. So, uh, give me another one. Give me an all positive.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  The future is French, Bill Simmons. The future is French, and it's temporarily stationed in San Antonio, Texas. Victor Wembanyama, we have LeBron James at age 40, we have Nikola Jokic turning 30 in a few days, or a month, I think. And Wemby's 20. And Wemby is giving us a very clear next up. It doesn't mean he'll be the only one, but this dude is special. There's no, there's no other way to look at it. Everything is clicking, you know? He was very hyped like LeBron coming in, but I think Victor Wembanyama is poised to be the next greatest player in the NBA at some point in the next five years.

• 36:21Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't agree more. The gold medal game was a great sign by him. The Christmas Day Knicks game was a great sign by him. I had him down as well for, for the draft. I wrote down Wemby's slow burn into a potential monster crunch time guy. Wemby, to me, has turned into when I'm home watching NBA, if he's in the fourth quarter and it's close, he's on a TV now. And that wasn't the case last year. Last year it was more of like, that team's a mess, really makes me mad that I don't have a point guard. If he does something cool, I'll see it on social media. This year, it's kind of like, now that Chris Paul, which, you know, go figure, they needed

• 37:03Bill Simmons?

  a point guard, and he's, he's almost my age, but still knows what to do, how to get him the ball in the right spots, but his last 18, he's 29 and 10. Good sign. 50, 40, 87.

• 37:18Speaker 04

  Dang.

• 37:19Bill Simmons?

  4.1 blocks a game. And the nitpick is 4.6 free throws a game versus 11 threes a game. And that's going to be the tilt that I'm watching for at the end of these games because what's so much fun to watch in these crunch times is where they get in the ball and then what he does and he still has that like, sometimes he plays lower than his size, you know, he'll do like these turnarounds where his, he's like falling down or he's, you know, I, I think once he eventually realizes, just I'm going to get eight feet from the basket, get in the ball, I'm taller than everyone, I'm just going to get a good shot. But it's really fun watching him figure it out. No, the last time I, I'm going back 40

• 37:59Bill Simmons?

  years, but Sampson, the first couple of years on the Rockets and Wemba Yama, pretty similar offensively, um, except for the three point shooting, but Sampson had the same stuff. Like he was just figuring out what his body was. He had some really good stuff. He was always around the rim and big, in big moments. Um, and he was kind of nice around the foul line. And then he got hurt. We kind of never saw where it was going to go. Um, with Wemby, the thing, the thing that I'm watching for as the season keeps going, they're a 500 team. We had them, I think, under 35 for the season. They're clearly going to be in the playoff mix because he's just too good. They also have some trades to make potentially. But what I want to watch from him is the last five, six, seven minutes of the game,

• 38:45Bill Simmons?

  where are your shots coming from? Are you just going to settle for threes? Are you going to start figuring out, I need to be six, seven feet from the basket and around the rim on rebounds and stuff like that? What have you been watching from him with the evolution of that over the last year?

• 39:00Speaker 04

  He is so much more comfortable on the basketball court, specifically on the offensive end. Um, I still think the biggest growth there is in the two point area as well. I think he needs to, to, to have a couple of just signature moves, like not a Sambor shuffle, not necessarily Euro step, but he should be able to develop some footwork. And we talked about Brunson, just if he had a little bit more footwork and some go-to moves, like we can all picture Michael or Kobe going to one of their go-to shots, Dirk, like what's that going to be for him? I don't know what that is, but once he gets it, look out. Um, so I'm watching that. He turns 21 this week. Nobody in league history has ever averaged three made threes.

• 39:39Bill Simmons?

  Fucking crazy. How is he not 21 yet?

• 39:43Bill Simmons?

  Him and my daughter's boyfriend turning 21 in the same week. That's just nuts to me.

• 39:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, so he's, nobody's ever made three threes and averaged three blocks a game. He's at four blocks and easily three three. So that that's his signature thing. He's gonna be a three point shooter. Uh, but what can he do inside the arc? I think is where his big growth area is. I think he'll also usher in, you sort of alluded to this, a new rivalry in FIBA. I know it's a little early, but like 2027 World Cup, 2028 Olympics, you know. France, the France is gonna be loaded and they're gonna be younger and he's gonna be great. I think there's gonna be a new France USA rivalry in these big competitions.

• 40:25Bill Simmons?

  I love true patriot, true patriot Kirk Goldsparrows, one of my favorite Kirk Goldsparrows. Oh, it's keeping an eye on the gold medal in FIBA.

• 40:33Speaker 04

  Well, I, you know, I work for Team USA. I love international basketball. Like, you know, FIBA is a great product. Um, I think we all enjoyed the Olympics. I remember talking to R C Buford after the Olympics. And I say, R C, what was that like? He was like, the perfect outcome. Wemby almost won, so he's coming back angry. Uh, and my, my country won. So a lot of Spurs people love that he almost won, but not quite. And I think he has a chance when he's what, 23, 24 to do what Manu did, which is upset Goliath on the international stage. And really become a special, different level international player. Um, but ultimately as it relates to this season, they're better than I thought. They were largely because of him, Bill.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Uh, I do think they're sort of where LeBron was in year two, kind of a dicey playoff team. Nobody expects much, but ahead of schedule. Uh, so I think the Spurs are thrilled with where he is.

• 41:28Bill Simmons?

  But a team that makes more sense than those first couple of years of LeBron teams. I mean, he inherited such a bad roster those first couple of years. They, they spent three years just trying to extricate themselves from these awful roster decisions. And I think that oh, six season was the kind of the first time it was like, all right, this kind of looks like a team that LeBron should have. Wemby's further along. They also, they have some possible trade stuff if they wanted. I, my big thing, if they made me the Wemby consultant. He needs to figure out where his like three spots on the floor. Right. And I thought this was something when Duncan came into the league. And he came in as a finished product almost because he had been in college for four years, but he had his spots. Right. He was, he had right block, jump hook.

• 42:12Bill Simmons?

  He had that left, left a little bit further away, 10, 11 feet where he could shoot that bank shot or drive into the lane and hit the jumper. Like he knew where his spots were. Wemby's spots are basically the three point line. And then he's showing signs of a possible Dirk foul line, something. But I don't know if he even knows what it is yet. Remember like how long it took Dirk to just figure out like top of the key. This is my domain now. I'm, I'm now grabbing this and taking it. And I don't, for me, the Wemby spot. I think would be the left block where he could either shoot a bank shot or a little 10 footer or go into the lane with a little running jump hook. And I don't know how you would defend it, but he hasn't figured that out yet.

• 42:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have never thought about it in these terms, but it's like, okay, post play is kind of dead. Here comes like the best big man of a generation. How is he going to get two point shots? And I love the Timmy, you know, the bank shot from the left side, you know, and Embiid is the free throw line face up guy.

• 43:12Bill Simmons?

  And Embiid's a good one. Embiid took eight years to figure out where his spot was and it's free throw line.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I don't know, there's no manual, there's no like George Mikan tutorial video on how to, to drop step and get a half hook. Cause we're not doing that anymore. So it's, it's a cool thing again, in the all positive podcast is like, how is this guy going to figure it out? He clearly has the tools. But there's no manual to learn from here. Maybe it's Embiid a little bit, maybe it's Jokic a little bit, but I think he has a higher ceiling as a scorer. Is it crazy than those guys do near the basketball hoop? So I don't know how he's going to get there, but that is, I think we're vibing on that. That's the same thing. What is his signature two point move going to be, Bill?

• 43:52Bill Simmons?

  I like the foul line area for him too, because we saw it with Dirk, we saw it with Embiid, we've seen him with a couple of others. Just because it's really hard to like send a second guy. You know, you can almost create enough space there where um you can pass to either corner. You got like a guard over there. So maybe that'll be it. I'd love to see them find one more guy. Just for the record. All right.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Well, and I just say shout. Well, last thing, like shout out to Brian Wright and RC and all those guys for getting grownups in that like Harrison Barnes and Chris Paul.

• 44:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  It really did let this happen. So let's, they do have another level to get to, and it's going to require some good front office craft to, to build this team around him.

• 44:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's, they have to be staring at Fox a little bit.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 44:39Bill Simmons?

  That would be the guy I would be at least having a meeting about when we get back after New Year's. Like, all right, hey, guys, 1:30. We're going to have our one and a half hour at the Aaron Fox meeting and we've had our best three scouts watch his last 20 games. And what would this look like with Lumbia? You gotta talk that out and really figure it out because this is a top 20 guy that might become available in a month. You know, uh, my next one for the all positive NBA podcast, and I couldn't be more delighted. I've already talked about them on the pod in the past, so we don't have to spend too much time on it, but the Atlanta Hawks graduating from fantasy team that just made trades that Woody Johnson's kids would make for the Jets.

• 45:23Bill Simmons?

  And we're like, we'll just put Dejounte Murray and Trey Young together. By the way, I trade that I, I kind of liked when they did it. I, at the time, I thought Dejounte Murray still played defense, but uh, came to find out he didn't.

• 45:35Bill Simmons?

  The way they crafted this team, putting Trey with all these wings and all these interchangeable guys on defense who can help him in some ways, or you know, the Daniels Murray trade, which was the trade of the year and maybe the trade of the last couple of years. The Reese Shea pick, who I just really like Reese Shea. I liked him in the preseason. I like him during the season. He's 19 years old. He's playing 24 minutes a game. I don't know if you saw their comeback against Indiana when they scored 50 in the fourth quarter. Reese Shea was a big part of that. Um, the uh, the, they have two centers who basically can just rebound and finish lobs and that's it. And it's a team that.

• 46:22Bill Simmons?

  Was architected. I'm going to make up that word correctly. And I just want to appreciate the moment because so many, like, look at the Kings. You go the other way, we could talk about them in the all negative NBA pod, but the Kings doing all the fantasy basketball moves like DeMar DeRozan maybe has stuff left in the tank and on and on and on. And now they're a mess. Atlanta, like, just really smartly crafting a team that can exact the most out of Trey Young. Because they couldn't, they knew they didn't really have a chance to, Trey Young had no value anymore. He was, they weren't going to be able, you're basically just selling them off for 40 cents on the dollar.

• 46:59Bill Simmons?

  All the moves they made were great. And the fact that Hunter turned out to be a guy, kind of belatedly.

• 47:06Bill Simmons?

  I just really like the team. They're 18 and 15 now, and I think they're, I think they're a team that's not going to be a playing team. I think they're going to be one of the six playoff teams.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  I say, I see the same thing for them. They're 11 and four in their last 15, playing pretty good on both sides of the ball. Landry Fields, Kyle Korver, great front office moves. I think the Dejounte trade, the original one was, it didn't turn out very well. But then sort of getting the edit undo and getting back Dyson Daniels and draft capital has completely, completely refreshed the outlook in Atlanta. I think Trey Young still has something to give. He's a terrific offensive player. And if you surround him with four great defensive players, you have a chance to, to be able to hide him on the defensive end. And that's what this current sort of block of wings lets them do.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  Obviously Dyson Daniels deserves all the shine for Defensive Player of the Year candidacy. He is a great.

• 48:05Bill Simmons?

  Did you see this with him?

• 48:08Speaker 04

  No, I don't think New Orleans did either. It's again, it's sort of like Brunson's, like if, if freaking New Orleans knew they had this, they would have traded him. So I don't think anybody knew it. I mean, we always, he was always kind of interesting in the draft because he had the size and the athleticism and sort of this quirky playmaking thing.

• 48:27Speaker 04

  But I don't think anybody knew he could do this. I don't think anybody, I don't think Atlanta knew he could do this.

• 48:33Bill Simmons?

  It just didn't seem like he could shoot. It always seemed like he had quick hands and he was something. But this is crazy to watch. I mean, you could argue just Murray for Daniels would have made sense. But yeah, he's, it was really interesting watching him guard LeBron a couple weeks ago.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, LeBron got him on that chase down block.

• 48:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was the one guy where this, it was like, okay, well, maybe you might be the best defensive perimeter guy in the league, but if somebody's 6'9", 270, that might still be a problem for you. But it seems like everybody else, where he's really tough and what the Knicks should watch out for is if we get Knicks Hawks in like, around one, and Daniels on Brunson is bad for the Knicks. Like, that's just flat out not good.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Oh, and like, don't forget Trey Young, you know, rolling the dice on the Knicks logo. And he loves going up to that building. I mean, again, the Eastern Conference, here we are again, positive podcast. The Eastern Conference is not, is not the dumpster fire we thought it was, like, early in the season, Bill. In Atlanta, 11 and 4 in their last 15, Dyson Daniels has recharged their defensive identity. They have Richard Shea, they're letting him grow. Deandre Hunter, as you mentioned, is great. Akongwu, they just have an identity. Quinn Snyder deserves some love here, too. Figuring it out on the fly, and maybe finding a playoff team.

• 49:55Bill Simmons?

  There's some love for his wardrobe and his look, too. Every time they cut to him in the sidelines, I'm like, is this a bit? What's he doing?

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Well, as Jacoby called it, the Sally Jesse Raphael glasses. I think the Great Barrier Thief is one of the great nicknames in the contemporary NBA.

• 50:12Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't agree more. Great Barrier Thief is, I don't know who came up with that, but kudos. Can I give you, what do you think Atlanta's over/under is on FanDuel right now? They're 18 and 15.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  So are.

• 50:24Bill Simmons?

  So wins, because they update the wins. What do you think they're, because I bet this twice, and I might go back for thirds. What do you think it is right now?

• 50:31Speaker 04

  Forty-three and a half.

• 50:33Bill Simmons?

  Forty-two and a half. Like to me, they're

• 50:36Speaker 04

  I'll take the over, I guess.

• 50:37Bill Simmons?

  To me, they're top six teams. So right now it's Cleveland, Boston, Knicks, Zombie, the Zombie Magic at 2014, Atlanta's fifth and Milwaukee's sixth because they just had, you know, they've had the Damiana stuff. So they're only 16 and 14. And then underneath them is Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Detroit. Philly lurking now at 13 and 17 with a chance to get to 500 if we'll see. They have a tough schedule in January. I'll be interested to see how many games a beat actually plays. But I think Atlanta is going to be a top 16.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Quick Philly interview. What is, what is your takeaway from that Christmas game?

• 51:15Speaker 04

  As a Boston guy?

• 51:17Bill Simmons?

  I just thought Philly played that game like it was a game seven and Boston played it like it was another game in the schedule. And it's going to happen. I didn't take that much away from it.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  I think that's a great point. I think that's what Boston, they're going to get that every night. I mean, Indiana got them again. Like they're getting everybody's best welcome to a tight little fence. This is one of the reasons it's hard. Everybody's like, oh, okay, let's bring our A game. So.

• 51:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they were, yeah, I don't think they were ready for what was going to happen. Here's the Celtic stretch coming up that I'm going to be really interested in. Thursday at Minnesota, Friday at Houston, Sunday at Oklahoma City, Tuesday at Denver. And we're going to have a much better idea after those games. They'll play two awesome games, probably have one shitty game and then one either or game would be my guess. But last year they would have ripped through and won all four of those games. And that's the difference with that. Last year's team had a chip on its shoulder. They wanted to rip through the schedule. Every time they lost, it felt like an accident. This year, we'll see, like, could they go on four on those? I wouldn't be surprised. Let's, uh, let's take a break and then I have a couple more for you.

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead. But what if you went to Cancun with Expedia save up to 30% when you bundle and save? You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun, one, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save savings vary. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home

• 53:07Bill Simmons?

  screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. All right, the all positive NBA podcast returns with Kirk Goldsberry's next one. What do you got?

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Inside the NBA is perfect sports television, and we've seen it be saved from potential doom. It was doomed, Bill Simmons. The Inside the NBA was was left for dead there for a few months. And, you know, I got a chance to visit with those guys in Atlanta when I was doing those data casts. And I love it. I think I speak for millions of NBA fans. Unlike the NFL, unlike Major League Baseball, NBA fans have this incredible pre and postgame show. And I think, you know, there was that world's worst take a couple of weeks ago that it was actually bad for the NBA. That's terrible. Charles Barkley is probably the

• 54:30Speaker 04

  GOAT sports media guy since Madden, probably. And I just love that we have this Turner crew and this TNT crew. And I'm happy that we're going to have it going forward.

• 54:42Bill Simmons?

  I have no notes. I do worry about them a little bit with how ESPN does basketball and whether they'll have enough time to actually do content before, during, and after games.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think I share some of that concern as a veteran.

• 54:56Bill Simmons?

  I think the Turner people share some of that concern, too.

• 55:01Bill Simmons?

  All right. My next one for the all positive NBA pod. Brooklyn as an old school tanking trade machine team. They said it couldn't be done with the second apron era.

• 55:14Bill Simmons?

  They said, they said the Picasso, the trade machine wouldn't be able to paint during February. Well, guess what? Brooklyn's already made two trades. They have this giant Ben Simmons expiring. They have a determined thing to be bad. They have Cam Johnson, who I think there's going to be a little bit of a fun bidding war. And he actually is a tradable contract. Don't sleep on Nick Claxton. Maybe, you know, he's a contract in the low mid twenties as a rim protector. Kind of alley-oop guy, like could Atlanta turn Capella into Nick Claxton? I don't even know if that makes them better, but there's stuff like that floating around with them. But then big picture. If they do this correctly, I mean, let's say, I think they're definitely trading Cam Johnson.

• 55:59Bill Simmons?

  He's 28 years old. They should, they definitely want to get worse. If they also traded Claxton, they'd be like $120 million under the cap heading into the summer, which now gives everybody leverage, like somebody like Jimmy Butler or Miami's like, where are you going to go? And he's like, well, I actually do have a place to go. It's right there. It's Brooklyn. They become leverage for Zion. Basically they become the island of misfit toys for every player and team that we don't know what they're going to do this summer. I really appreciate that they exist because if they didn't, I don't know what we would do for fake trades.

• 56:35Speaker 04

  It's like Walmart on Black Friday, the Brooklyn Nets in January of 2025.

• 56:39Bill Simmons?

  50% off. Cam Johnson right now, lightning deal.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  But to Sean Marks's credit, like one of the worst things that can happen to a front office is these trade demands. And he had, he lived through one of them and they got back these pieces, Bill. And now they're able to spin it off into future team building resources. So I know they want to keep their draft pick. I had one of the team sources say, hey, if we start winning, watch out, we're going to start trading players. That's what they've done already. Schroder is out. And I think, you know, Cam Johnson is out.

• 57:15Bill Simmons?

  Finney Smith is gone.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I should, I should say Cam Johnson is likely, everybody could.

• 57:20Bill Simmons?

  Cam Johnson's on his way out. They're trading Cam Johnson.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  Slide them into any team in the league, they get better. And Claxton, I agree with Ben Simmons. I don't think so, but maybe that would be a Sean Marks masterpiece. But I think they're not done and I think Claxton and Cam Johnson are the ones to watch. Maybe even Cam Thomas or somebody like the Houston Rockets that don't have a go to score. But I definitely think Cam Johnson is the number one player to watch on the trade market right now.

• 57:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, you mentioned this on the Ringer NBA show yesterday. There's also a really fun scenario where Cam Thomas is the only guy left just shooting 40 shots a game. And it's like, just the perfect, could Cam Johnson average, could he basically do Kobe 2006 for the last two months of the season?

• 58:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I stole that take from you.

• 58:06Bill Simmons?

  Cam Thomas has 81 points. Oh my God.

• 58:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I stole that from you. I think when you saw the, the scoring title odds at the beginning of the year, you were high on Cam Thomas. Yeah, don't count him out. He could shoot 40 times a game a few times down the stretch here.

• 58:21Bill Simmons?

  What do you have for your next one?

• 58:24Speaker 04

  I mean, I think we have to talk about Nikola Jokic, dude. I think like

• 58:28Bill Simmons?

  Twist my arm.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  10 years ago.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  I got a text yesterday and a friend of mine was like, hey, you have Jokic on a TV, right? He has a chance to get a 40, 20, 10. Like, I'll put him on now. I wasn't going to watch Denver, Utah. There were better games, but fine.

• 58:45Speaker 04

  I feel like they should broadcast games differently for the Nuggets because I just want to watch Jokic. I just want a Jokic cam, the whole game, particularly on offense.

• 58:53Bill Simmons?

  22 man in football where they just have a wide shot, just focused on him doing stuff. Yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, like the NBA 2K, my player, but I think he's about to turn 30. We have Jokic or, you know, Wemba 20, LeBron 40. This is the guy in his prime right now.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  If you would, if you would have told me 10 years ago at the midpoint of the 2010s, Spurs are defending champs. Warriors are about to take the lead by storm. If you would have told me in that time that the best player in the world in the mid part of the 2020s was the giant Serbian center who's not very fast, not quick. I would have said you were crazy, but one of the things I love about NBA basketball, Bill, is you don't know what the next thing is going to be. And you've alluded to this, I think in your NBA ratings monologue. It's like, we don't know what's going to happen in this league. And I think he's a perfect embodiment of sort of one of those unicorn moments where like, what? This guy's going to come along. Here's a stat. He's currently averaging more points per game than Shaq ever did in his entire career,

• 59:50Speaker 04

  more rebounds per game than Tim Duncan ever did in his entire career. He is averaging more assists per game than Chris Paul has ever done in his entire career. And he's making 49% of his threes, which is like Kyle Korver numbers. This is insanity. Watch him, people. This is the best show in pro basketball.

• 1:00:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, right now, third in assists, second in points, third in rebounds. And where is he on the, he's, what's he shooting on the threes now?

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  It's down to 49%.

• 1:00:24Bill Simmons?

  But he's leading the league in threes, 49%. So second in points, third rebounds, third assists, first in three-point shooting. It's fucking crazy. It'll never happen again.

• 1:00:37Speaker 04

  It's like an NBA 2K make your own player thing and you move all the bars to 99, except for rim protection and like fitness or whatever.

• 1:00:48Bill Simmons?

  But you made the guy chubby.

• 1:00:51Bill Simmons?

  I have some quick ones.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  The Pistons are not the Pistons anymore. The Pistons were so sad for so long. And now they're a fun watch. I would rank them as my stealth most fun Eastern Conference watch behind the Hawks. Cade, I think is one of the 16 or 17, has to be on the All-Star team, guys, for what he's doing night to night. And they also have an interesting trade bait piece that I'm not sure they even think about doing this year. Maybe they do, but they have Harris and Hardaway at 41 million combined.

• 1:01:24Bill Simmons?

  They have all kinds of flexibility in all kinds of directions. And I'm just watching them because they're right around 500. The East is a little bit weird after that sixth spot. Cade is a guy. Ivy is compared to when Monty Williams was was playing Killian Hayes over him. That's what a dramatic come around that's been. I like what they've done with Beasley and Harris and Hardaway. Just the same thing you talked about with San Antonio. We're just like veterans who've been in the league for a while, who kind of know how to show up and just be professional. But there's also like, hey, could this be like a Jimmy Butler, like out of nowhere team? Could this be like, just fuck it? Let's add Zach Levine to this.

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  Like, could this be, I don't know who, like go through the league, go find guys that might be, but could this be a Cam Johnson team?

• 1:02:15Bill Simmons?

  I feel like there's a trade for them and I think they should do it because Cade's really, really, really good. And way better than I thought he was going to be. I think he's an absolute guy. I would love to see them get one more guy.

• 1:02:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love Cade Cunningham. I think he's finally clicked into what we thought he could be at the draft. And I agree, I mean, coaching changes matter. And I think this, this new coach has brought in sort of a new culture and that term is overused, but it just feels differently. I love Beef Stew, by the way, is my favorite League Pass player. Isaiah Stewart, you never know what's going to happen when he's out there.

• 1:02:52Bill Simmons?

  Great bench guy. I wish the Celtics had him.

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  But sort of like Houston last year, there's something cooking, but we don't know what it is.

• 1:03:01Bill Simmons?

  Right. Orlando two years ago, like, yeah, you, there's, you can see the breadcrumbs to something really good happening with them. And I think they've at least reached that point. OKC a couple of years ago.

• 1:03:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, the thing I always say, Bill, is like the road from bad to good always has to go through average or mediocre on the way, you know? And that's where they are. And that's a good sign. This is where they wanted to be this year. And again, like the Spurs, they're a little bit better than we thought. And I think they should be excited about the next couple of years in Detroit.

• 1:03:31Bill Simmons?

  Goldsberry, they just did this trip. They did a three, a three game trip at Phoenix, at Lakers, at Kings, won all of them.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Bill Simmons?

  And it had a dramatic come from behind win against the Kings too. So that's one I wanted to mention the Pistons. And, uh, and I wanted to mention the zombie magic really quick. They're 20 and 14.

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  Palo's played five games. He's really played four and a half games because he got hurt. Franz has played 25 games, really 24 and a half because he got hurt.

• 1:04:09Bill Simmons?

  They're shooting 30.8% from three.

• 1:04:14Bill Simmons?

  They are running crunch time plays for Tristan De Silva and Jalen Suggs. They lost Mo Wagner, who you'd be like, ah, they lost Mo Wagner. Like, Mo Wagner was important for them? And they're 20 and 14 and they're just hanging around. And they're a really hard team to play. Like, they beat the Celtics last week and I'm watching it going, I don't understand how we're gonna lose this game, but it made sense when you were watching it because Orlando was just ready for the challenge, playing super hard. Mosley, to me, I wasn't sure about Mosley, but what he's getting out of that team, Atkinson's the coach of the year favorite, but I think Mosley, this team finishes with like 46, 47 wins, not having Palo, not having Franz. Like, that's fucking insane.

• 1:04:59Bill Simmons?

  So he's gotta be in there.

• 1:05:00Speaker 04

  I left them for dead two or three times. Oh, okay. They can't do this without Palo and Franz. Then Franz shows up and then Franz goes out and then they start, Suggs is the guy and now, you know, they lose Mo. They made a run in the in-season tournament. And yeah, God, look, if they get whole before the Eastern Conference playoffs, I don't care if you're Cleveland, Boston, or New York. Nobody wants to see that. Nobody wants to have to score against those guys.

• 1:05:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the worst case scenario, eight seed. If you're the one seed, you're like, really? I gotta, these guys, now they're healthy? Because I assume Palo and Franz will be back. So I wanted to mention them. What do you have? Because I have two more.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  I have sort of, well, I think this will sort of segue. I think the Magic and the Rockets and the Thunder sort of reminding us that the NBA is a young man's game. But on the flip side of that, superstars are sort of aging gracefully, but in a weird way. Like, we're able to go see LeBron. Like, I was able to take my family to see LeBron in San Antonio this year. Stephen, KD, like, as a Larry Bird scholar, Magic Johnson scholar, you know, it's, it's not always, you don't always get to see these guys after 35. And I think one of the cool things is we can go see LeBron James in 2025 and we can go see Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry in their late 30s. And it's not like a nostalgia act. These guys are great, like.

• 1:06:23Speaker 04

  What LeBron and Stefan did on Christmas, and I know you talked about it, was awesome.

• 1:06:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Speaker 04

  They might not be championship contenders, but again, in terms of the depth of League Pass offerings, some of these old dudes are bringing special things to League Pass on a regular basis. And 37 year olds aren't necessarily sort of dead weight anymore. And I think that's great for the league.

• 1:06:47Bill Simmons?

  I would throw in Chris Paul, too. I had actually, for the all positives, playing off that, the fact that the Lakers aren't a disaster. I'm going to remove my abject hatred for the Lakers and the Yankees, the two teams I hate the most.

• 1:07:01Bill Simmons?

  It's also not good when the Lakers are bad. It's the same thing like we talked about the Knicks. Like, the league's just more fun when the Lakers are competent or good. Even I would admit that, and I can't stand them. There was a moment when this seemed like the season was going to get really dark. And that this LeBron season was going to get dark, the season was going to get dark, the JJ thing was going to get dark. The defense was absolutely abominable. They kind of rallied around it and passed it. LeBron going away for eight days, I think the schedule really helped. They really lucked out, right? As things were cratering, and all of a sudden, we had that NBA Cup thing. They've had some good schedule luck. Like, they got to play Sacramento three times, right? As Sacramento was completely falling apart.

• 1:07:48Bill Simmons?

  But I feel like they've kind of saved this a little bit, you know? Like, the fact that Max Christie's a competent rotation guy now. He wasn't a month ago. The fact that they were able to get Finney Smith for what, basically giving up nothing. They're not going to be bad, I guess is my point. And I think if you're talking about like, I don't want to watch LeBron on an awful team. Like, this guy carried the league this century, you know? And at least they're relevant, I guess is my point. I think them just sucking and not having their pick, it's just like a dark story. And at least that's not going to happen. And now I want to pour gasoline on myself and set myself on fire that I just praised them. But that's fine.

• 1:08:31Speaker 04

  Well, in the all positive NBA podcast, I think, you know, the NBA is a collection of markets. And when LA and New York are relevant, it's good. It's good for television. It's good for, for, for matchups like Celtics.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's also good because they're on fucking national TV all the time because those are the teams they put on. So we might as well have them be good over terrible.

• 1:08:49Speaker 04

  And one of the things that Brian Windhorst always talks about is the league also always backloads LeBron's second half of the schedule. He always has a lot of national TV games after football ends, you know, so they could have a really tough go. But I think they have another trade to make. I love Dorian Finney-Smith there. I, it took like three years too long to get an actual three-point shooting wing back in his life. Um, I still think they're one or two pieces away. But if they have luck with health, I believe in J.J. Reddick as a coach. I believe in LeBron James as somebody who can sort of figure out how to endure through this marathon season and get to the playoffs in one piece.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  Anthony Davis is the biggest question mark. If they can add one, maybe two more pieces around those guys. Again, nobody wants to see them in the playoffs.

• 1:09:39Bill Simmons?

  I think people want to see them in the playoffs. Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing them in the playoffs. I'm just, the question for me is that I, did I want to see them at all during the season? And now at least we can say, all right, this is kind of a fun team.

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Bill Simmons?

  Come on. In the playoffs, I want to see them. They're not, they're not making like round three in the playoffs. Come on.

• 1:10:01Speaker 04

  Ask me again to the All-Star break. Get me to the All-Star break. I think there's a potential for either answer there. Admittedly, I don't think Memphis would be scared if it showed up.

• 1:10:11Bill Simmons?

  I just, I don't, LeBron's too old. I don't see him being able to. Once we get into the part of the schedule where you have to play like every other, I just don't see it. I don't see how he would have the energy. Now, we saw in the beginning when they were playing in big minutes, he lasted a month. He had to take an eight-day sabbatical. Davis is the one, maybe he could throw the team on his back. I, Finney Smith, I've always liked. I thought his quotes were really interesting after the trade. Like he's a really smart player. He's the kind of guy that's worked well with LeBron. Where he was talking about how they used him in, in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of like top of the key threes and a lot of him with the ball. And he's like, I'm actually better off if I'm in the corner. That was when I was at my best with Luca. Now I get to go back to that. I was like, all right, this guy, this would be a good one for them.

• 1:10:59Bill Simmons?

  I have another one for you. I, this is mostly positive. There's a negative component to it, but I don't want to focus on that. Zion trades?

• 1:11:13Bill Simmons?

  This has been a big topic on texts and talking to different people who know things and people involved with teams. What is Zion as a trade asset?

• 1:11:26Bill Simmons?

  What's he worth? Would you do it? Is this salvageable? Like that ESPN wrote a piece about it this week about how goofy his deal is. Basically, it's not guaranteed for the last three years, but you can keep picking it up. So it's almost like an NFL contract with no real salary cap ramifications. Somebody's going to talk themselves into it. If you're New Orleans, you, you probably have to cut bait at some point. And I think it's going to be a really fun story over the next six weeks, which is why I put it in the all positive NBA storyline because I still think Zion's incredibly talented. I think he plays for the single worst franchise you could play for in the NBA at this point. I want to see him go to a place

• 1:12:12Bill Simmons?

  that will treat him like a plant and water him every day and put him in the sun and put little chemicals and try to help him grow versus where he is now, which is the worst situation you can be in.

• 1:12:25Bill Simmons?

  Would you trade for Zion?

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  It depends on who I am. I think if risk were a human being, it would wear number one on its New Orleans jersey. I think that's what we're looking, there's just so much risk there. And if I'm a good team, no. If I feel good about my team now or in the next couple of years, I'm not going to give up anything relevant to bring in that kind of risk. If I'm the Kings, if I'm the Blazers, I'm having very different conversations because I need something. I need an injection of something. And if that guy turns it around, major if, he's one of the best players in the league. He's one of the best players in the league. The guy we've seen at his absolute peak is unstoppable in the paint.

• 1:13:07Bill Simmons?

  Can't be the king.

• 1:13:08Speaker 04

  Shaq, Giannis and Zion, the top paint scorers of the 21st century by season. He's that good. If he, if he gets into some sort of rhythm with availability and health and nutrition.

• 1:13:24Speaker 04

  It could, it's worth looking. There's, there's whiteboard discussions happening in struggling NBA front offices right now.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  And yet, that's not what can happen. He can't go to the Kings, can't go to Portland. I, this goes back to my plan analogy. I get, I get your point. Those franchises are like, hey, this could be an incredible roll of the dice. To me, he has to go to an awesome organization that will really put some thought and love and care into this. And to me, it's Miami or San Antonio.

• 1:13:58Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:00Bill Simmons?

  If I'm Miami.

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  Miami makes a lot of sense.

• 1:14:02Bill Simmons?

  If I'm Miami, this is the guy I'm really thinking about. And especially if I, if this Butler thing keeps going sideways and could it be a three-way or whatever?

• 1:14:12Bill Simmons?

  Could we get Zion? Could we save this? Could we salvage this? Could we turn him into an awesome asset? And is there a world two years from now where we have Bam and Zion and Tyler Hero? And that's like our version of a big three because Hero's been fantastic this year. He's just a really, really elite offensive player now. You're not getting anywhere if, if Michael Pena wrote about this today for, for the Ringer. If Bam and Hero are your two guys, you're, you're not doing anything. You still need that awesome somebody. So Zion, and then San Antonio is one of those, like if San Antonio traded for Zion, guess what the reaction in the league would be? Oh, shit.

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  That would be it. It's like, oh no. Wemby and Zion? Oh no. You know, and I think those are the two teams. Maybe there's some others, but those are the two I was focused on. Like you, you send him to Chicago, you send him to Detroit. I just, I don't know how it's different.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's super depressing, right? Because he, he still has a very high ceiling. And a lot of front offices are simply not going to take the risk. It's, it's a non-starter for a lot of the, the general managers around the league. Like we're not, that, that kind of risk in this NBA where you can't have one bad contract and compete for a championship. It seems like that's where we're going.

• 1:15:34Bill Simmons?

  But the contract isn't nearly as risky is, is what makes this so fascinating. It's a risk, but it's also not a risk. It depends what you give up, you know?

• 1:15:44Speaker 04

  It's non-guaranteed next year or something like that, right? And I think.

• 1:15:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's weight stuff and there's game stuff where over and over again, you can get out of it. So, you know, I, we'll see what happens, but um, I just, it, I just keep thinking of the teams that if they traded for him, what the reaction would be.

• 1:16:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:16:05Bill Simmons?

  And Miami and San Antonio are the two where people are like, oh, fuck. Oh, man, they're gonna figure this out with them. We've just seen it in the NBA over the uh, and I don't know what else to do with that New Orleans team because Ingram clearly has no trade value with as an expiring free agent. They would have traded him already. They're in a weird spot with CJ and Dejounte who they just traded for. They have all these picks. I, I just, I don't know what to do.

• 1:16:31Speaker 04

  They have really good tradable pieces beyond Zaza. I mean, I don't know if they want to do that, but they got some shooters and some wing defenders that that would make every team in the NBA look a little bit better. Um, so if they want to press the explode button, I think they have some, some draft capital and maybe some young players they can get back.

• 1:16:49Bill Simmons?

  And guess what? Nobody wants to go there. But now we're, now we're not being positive anymore. Do you have one more? Cause I have two more.

• 1:16:55Speaker 04

  I, this one is sort of in jest, but I love the Washington Wizards because they let you

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  see the GM's vision of every opponent, right? So if your team is playing the Wizards, I recommend you go watch it because this is what the front office envisioned when they put their team together. Whatever they're gonna get against the Wizards, clean looks, layups, great stops. It's, I encourage everybody to go. It's almost like the Washington Generals, right? The Wizards are one of the best teams to go watch right now at home. Like if your team's playing the Wizards at their home arena, go see it, folks. This is the best your team's gonna look all year.

• 1:17:35Bill Simmons?

  It's like scrimmaging in a hotel conference, conference, what are those rooms called?

• 1:17:41Speaker 04

  It's the, the draft, the draft workout video against the chair that you always call out. Yeah.

• 1:17:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, playing off what you just said in the all positive NBA draft, I kind of love how weird the 2024 draft is and how many guys I kind of like. Reese Shea, mentioned him already.

• 1:18:00Bill Simmons?

  Steph Castle, all in. A little bit of a rookie wall, what you're saying, but I'm all in. Messi on uh, on the Pelicans, like he's a real center and I think he's like 15 years old, but he's definitely a real center who will get a big contract. Jared McCain. This Jalen Wells kid on Memphis.

• 1:18:19Bill Simmons?

  Zach Eadie on Memphis, who's averaging like 11 and 8 and you feel his presence in some of these games and there's matchups against certain teams where it's kinda, I really liked him in the draft because I just felt like there's gonna be games and nights where he just sucks to play against. You know, it's like, we don't have a guy, Porzingis is out tonight. Now we have Luke Garnett, you know, trying to stop Zach Eadie. Dalton Connect, I like Donovan Klingon, Tristan De Silva was a pretty polarizing prospect, but I think he's been a borderline revelation on the Magic. Bob Carrington, who a lot of people liked. I don't think Sar, I'm

• 1:19:00Bill Simmons?

  not willing to say he's a bust. I think there's something there. I really like Bud Zellus. I don't know how much you've watched him on Chicago, but I almost feel like they have to trade Zach Levine just to get him to play. I like the way that guy, I like how he runs the floor. I like how athletic he is. I like him and I think he's a little feisty. He's got a little chip on his shoulder. And then Ron Holland and Dillingham and Jacoby Walter. There's something there with all three of those guys. So that's a lot of guys that I think all have a chance to be a starter in the NBA, which is basically what we look for in the draft. There's no high ceiling superstar, Wemby type version. But it's a fun draft. Do you like this draft or am I overreacting?

• 1:19:44Speaker 04

  I think if you contextualize it like you did, yeah, I like it. I think it's gonna go down in history as a relatively weak class, especially sandwiched by the Wemby draft and then what we're getting in the Cooper Flag class. I love Steph Castle. I'm disappointed with one player you didn't mention, Reed Shepard, who I wanted to be better than that.

• 1:20:02Bill Simmons?

  We just haven't seen him. We haven't really seen him yet.

• 1:20:06Speaker 04

  He's kind of, well, that's in a related story. He's not, he's not shooting the ball well and he's not shooting the ball well. It's hard for him to find justification to get minutes, especially in a Houston environment where they're trying to win games.

• 1:20:18Bill Simmons?

  And they're trying to play defense and they're a two seed and they don't have time for a project. Hey, can you be Mark Price someday? They don't want to, they don't care. They want to win games.

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, but when you're drafted that high, Bill, right? Like, I don't care if you're a two seed. That player, you're drafted in that slot, you should find rotation minutes. But I've been disappointed.

• 1:20:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a good point.

• 1:20:37Speaker 04

  I said, I'm not done with him by any means, but I think the other players you mentioned, De Silva, I think is the one that jumps out. It's like, what? Okay. And again, this Orlando team, this culture, next man up mentality, he's great. Don't connect has been a big piece of why the Lakers are above water right now. And Richard Shea is going to be good. I think the Hawks made the right choice in retrospect. If we redrafted, it would be hard for me to put anybody above him right now. Is that what you, if you redrafted, would you, would you go Richard Shea if you're the Hawks? I think he fits into what they're doing, like we were talking about earlier.

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, for, for, for what they are and what they're trying to be, probably makes the most sense. I still really like Castle. I liked him the most heading into the draft. I, I just think he has it. There's, that guy has all the, he checks all the boxes of what I want. The shooting, I think we'll get there eventually, but for them, I think you're right. I think for, if you're just trying to have these interchangeable, tall, athletic dudes, he makes more sense for them. So, check out Bud Zellis though. I'm, I'm in on him. They, they might've actually stumbled into a, one of them. All right, here's, here's another one I had for you. So, and this is coming off, I went, I took my daughter to

• 1:21:56Bill Simmons?

  the Clipper game the other night. I gotta give them credit, man. That is the best NBA arena, hands down. Best atmosphere. Everything, everything Ballmer did, where there's like no TVs in the lobbies, there's no TVs in the clubs, there's no TVs when you go and buy a hot dog. Everything is built around, get back in your seats. He wants people in there. He's got that whole section behind the court that really does, they start chants, they do all kinds of things. There's more energy at those games. Then Laker games like they they really have flipped this where the Lakers now look like they're the rinky-dink franchise and with the Staples Center, which is just old now.

• 1:22:37Bill Simmons?

  And doesn't have the same vibe as this Clippers thing. This is the first time the Clippers have ever turned the tables on the Lakers and made them feel like they're just kind of more modern and more on it like the Lakers still have bigger stars. But I'll tell you this, that letting Paul George go over the third, fourth year thing, they did offer him three years. So I don't want to praise him too much, but not going for trying to patch it together with with defense role guys, flexibility, and then banking on Harden and Powell being able to carry all

• 1:23:16Bill Simmons?

  the offense. It works. Dan Gundy on the defense. It works. They're really well coached. Smart team that's taken advantage of this crazy. You mentioned it earlier with aging superstars. Harden, this is the best he's looked in a while. I don't think he had, he never has the ball too much. I think he's found the right balance of, uh, he takes over when they need him, but he doesn't have it all the time. And I think they're really hard. They win these games at the end of games. Like you watch like the last five minutes, like I feel like they're going to get stops. What they're getting from Zubots, who I just want to mention was traded for Mike Mascala by Magic Johnson and the Lakers, one of the worst trades of the last 10 years. Um, but they have an actual home court advantage. I think they're

• 1:24:01Bill Simmons?

  a playoff team and I was completely wrong on them. I, I thought they're going to suck. They're good.

• 1:24:06Speaker 04

  I'll go one step further. I mean, there's a crazy what if there if, if Kawhi can be 88% of Kawhi Leonard for the last few months of the regular season. I love this team. I, I love their coach. James Harden remains somehow underrated. Norman Powell has been a revelation. Uh, but if Kawhi Leonard can come back and have one really good five month stretch here, that's a pretty dangerous team.

• 1:24:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause here the minutes he's taking, he would be taking. Coffey's playing almost 25 minutes a game. Porter was playing 20 minutes a game. Derek Jones, who they're gonna need even when Kawhi comes back. And then Batum is playing 18 minutes a game. So they have minutes where it's just, he's an immediate upgrade of, of this kind of patchwork, you know, wings that they have. I'm with you. I'll tell you this. Body language doctor was really studying them. Happiest I've seen Kawhi on the bench in a couple of years. A lot of Kawhi Harden stuff during the timeouts. Kawhi, at one point in the fourth quarter, Harden wasn't playing and they were talking during a timeout. And Kawhi was doing the exaggerated overlap thing with Harden.

• 1:25:18Bill Simmons?

  Like, it seems like they actually like each other. The vibes are great. Everyone seems like they love Van Gundy. And in general, like, I, I think, I don't think they're gonna go away, was my takeaway from, uh, from what I've watched, but also seen them in person. Like, it was interesting. Golden State finally did the one thing I don't think teams realize that they should do. Nobody on the Clippers can dribble. I don't know if you've noticed this. They can dribble in the half court, like Harden obviously can dribble, but nobody wants to dribble the first 50 feet of the court. So it'll be like Chris Dunn, it'll be Harden, who doesn't want to work at all. Norman Powell, they, they really don't have anybody. And I was with my daughter and we're watching. I'm like, I don't understand why they won't press. I don't understand why people don't press the Clippers.

• 1:26:03Bill Simmons?

  I'm saying it to my daughter, who knows, barely knows anything about basketball. And then the Warriors started pressing in the fourth quarter and they started getting all these turnovers. And she's like, Dad, how'd you know? And I was like, because nobody on the Clippers can dribble. But that's, so that's their one weakness is they don't have like that. You know, I think pressure is an issue for them.

• 1:26:22Speaker 04

  Let me ask you this, Bill. Do you feel like that arena will bring a home court advantage?

• 1:26:27Bill Simmons?

  It already has.

• 1:26:28Speaker 04

  Clippers in the playoffs?

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  Yes. I do. I really do. I really, Jay, even that game, there were Warriors fans at that game Saturday night, but the Clipper fans were loud and I think they liked the team. The Harden thing, I just can't believe, because he was my least favorite player to see in person. And I actually kind of enjoyed the two games I've been to, I've actually enjoyed them. I was saying to the guy, Mike Toll, and I shared tickets with, I was like, I'm actually gonna go to a bunch of Clipper games. Like, I like going, I had a good time. The vibe's good, it's just the thumbs up. So, Bomber, like, I don't know how much, what did he spend, like, however many billion dollars? It was fucking worth it, because he's not like the Black Sheep brother of the Staples Center

• 1:27:10Bill Simmons?

  anymore. You know, he actually has good NBA dates, and there's a real vibe in the arena. So, thumbs up. Great job Clippers.

• 1:27:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. You took me into it. I think, yeah, I'll watch these Kawhi return games with newfound interest. Maybe a dark horse in the West.

• 1:27:27Bill Simmons?

  That's great for the all positive NBA podcast. A Kawhi comeback to what already exists, if he can be healthy, is just a really fun story, you know?

• 1:27:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:27:40Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi, if you throw away the playoffs last year, but before he got hurt, beginning of last year, he looked like one of the 15 best guys in the league.

• 1:27:49Speaker 04

  We've seen him, and 2019 isn't that long ago. He put a team on his shoulders and got on there. He's not that guy anymore. But he can win a playoff game. He can, he can play good defense, get rebounds, make big shots in crunch time. James Harden can create shots. But yeah, I mean, banking on, you have to be in an all positive podcast, Bill Simmons, to bank on Kawhi's long-term health and James Harden's postseason. You really have to be in a positive environment to project them as a potential sleeper.

• 1:28:19Bill Simmons?

  I think Harden, the word in the street is he's, he's matured with some of his off-the-court stuff, is the word in the street. Who knows? Last thing, just quickly, is the All-Star arguments are gonna be great for the all positive pod. We have just the guards of the West, SGA, Harden, Anthony Edwards, Kyrie, Curry, Booker, Fox, and Ja.

• 1:28:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm positive all those guys can't make the team. Centers Jokic, Wemby, Sabonis, Davis, Shangoon and Jaren Jackson. On a really good Memphis team. Houston might not have an All-Star. They're a two seed.

• 1:28:59Bill Simmons?

  And then you go with the, with the East. If Brunson and Mitchell and Cade all make it, we still have to figure out Maxey, Dame, Trey, Hero and Garland. We have to figure out how many Cavs All-Stars there are.

• 1:29:13Bill Simmons?

  I just think there's a lot of good players. And when everybody starts doing their All-Star pods in two weeks, people are like, holy shit. Lot of good players. And then we'll complain about the All-Star game, but we're not gonna do that. But all positive pod.

• 1:29:26Speaker 04

  It's gonna be a Stephen Curry celebration weekend. Most people call it the All-Star weekend, but it's gonna be Stephen Curry's convention. So he's definitely making it. I don't know what they'll have to do, but he's definitely in, Bill. There's no way that they're gonna host it.

• 1:29:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, SGA Harden, Harden has to make it.

• 1:29:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Bill Simmons?

  Ant has to make it. I think Kyrie has to make it and I think Curry has to make it. So that's five guards and we haven't talked about Booker, Fox or Ja yet. Ja, you can maybe dig on some of the missed games. But, uh, but that's crazy that Booker and Fox aren't gonna be in the All-Star game. I think that's where we're heading. So the league is loaded. That's it for the all positive NBA podcast. Unless you had any last, last things. That was good.

• 1:30:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just, I just want to say to my beloved Texas Longhorns that are playing football tomorrow against Arizona State, Hockum Horns, let's see, let's see a win and get to the semifinals, Bill.

• 1:30:16Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I, I'm feeling positive about that. I'm feeling positive about everything in general as we head to the end of, end of 2025. What a positive ending. This is great. We didn't even talk about the Kings. I had a whole, I was gonna make fun of the Kings. I'm not gonna do it because this is the all positive NBA podcast. Thanks Kyle Creighton for producing. I think Sir Rudy's on this. I think the house on this as well. Next time you see me, it'll be 2025 on the Thursday podcast. Enjoy New Year's. Have a great New Year's Eve. Kurt Goldsberry, good luck with Texas.

• 1:30:51Speaker 04

  Happy New Year. Thank you, Bill.

• 1:31:17Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday.

• 1:32:01Bill Simmons?

  Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes? Post-workout recovery is a big factor. Core Power Protein Shakes help you keep going after your workout with high-quality protein to build muscle and electrolytes to help hydrate. It's all you need for your recovery in one bottle, available in 26 and 42 gram protein options to pick what works best for you. Visit corepower.com to learn more.