‘One Battle After Another’: A Second Opinion With Van Lathan

On a very special bonus episode of the podcast, Van Lathan joins the show and gets the chance to share his perspective on the box office debate for ‘One Battle After Another’, share his overall thoughts on the film, and comment on its portrayal and depiction of Black women. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Jack Sanders Unlock an extra $250 at linkedin.com/thebigpicture Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey and this is The Big Picture. You are getting a very special conversation episode. We were making an episode earlier this week about The Smashing Machine. Van Lathan was here, Amanda was here, and we were excited to talk about that movie. But we were also excited to talk because Van and I have been having private conversations over the last two weeks or so about One Battle After Another. What does One Battle After Another mean? What does it mean to the box office? What does it mean to culture at large? What does it mean about representation? And we got off, as we often do when Van is on the show, on a long tangent and a deep, I thought, very thoughtful exploration of a lot of the ideas that are packed inside the movie and externally in the film-going culture right now. So we've decided to just make this its own episode.

• 0:51Sean Fennessey?

  Van is always a very special guest, but this was a uniquely fun and deep conversation that the three of us were able to have. So I hope you will enjoy it. I hope you will receive it in good faith. I hope you will understand that we're trying to explore something that is sometimes very complicated and dicey, representation-wise, intellectually, emotionally, and especially for me, for a movie that I care about so, so, so deeply. So I hope you enjoy this deep excursion into the internal and external worlds of One Battle After Another with Van Lathan. This episode is presented by LinkedIn Ads.

• 1:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Sometimes, marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. Like, if you see an ad for movie-themed dog sweaters when you don't even have a pet.

• 1:31Sean Fennessey?

  Reach exactly who you need with LinkedIn Ads with a network of 130 million decision-makers that can help you target by job title, industry, company size, or even skills. It's one of the reasons LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

• 1:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Try it out. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture. Terms and conditions apply.

• 2:03Sean Fennessey?

  A movie that has been hotly tabbed for the Academy Awards is One Battle After Another.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Oh, here we do it. Oh, yeah.

• 2:09Sean Fennessey?

  So, it's been, it's been a long road.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Long road.

• 2:13Sean Fennessey?

  To this conversation.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  A long, long road doing like that.

• 2:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, up and down the break of spring hills.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Long road doing like that.

• 2:21Sean Fennessey?

  We have both alluded to on our podcasts, the conversation that we had, the conversations you've been having.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:28Sean Fennessey?

  I wanted you to be able to express what you were, what you were saying in the run-up to the release of the movie. And also I want to hear what you think about the movie and, and, and how you feel about what you were expressing in the aftermath.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  All right, film bros, I come in peace. I come in peace.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  This is what I was expressing, and I do understand both sides of this argument, is particularly being in a place where you're trying to create films and get films out there.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  First, let me go back to just me, period, because those are just opinions from me. I am all about the have-not creator, all about the person that doesn't have what they need. And how does the person that doesn't have what they need, how do they get a chance to talk? How do they get a chance to, I am, at that, at this point in my career, not really that person. Like, I know a lot of different people, I can get my opinions out, I can do what I need to do to, to, to make the stuff that I need to make. But there are a lot of people who can't, and these stories that these people are trying to tell are just so important to them. I mean, you, if you ever sit down with someone who has a script or has an idea, and they sit in front of you with this

• 3:42Speaker 02

  full understanding of the weight of what their life has been and what their artistic expression is, and then you have to explain to them, okay, well, this is what we have to do. Then you take them to a meeting where they go, you need to put a rapper in your movie, or you need to follow it through this person's. Right. And you just watch slowly as the life gets sucked out of this person. And as their thing that they had becomes something else, but they want to see it, it's tough being on that side of it, right? And.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  It's, people go, we give you three. And just for movies like this, we need to know that you can make five or six. Million, you mean? Million dollars, right? And that's not across the board. There are plenty of films getting made by plenty of amazing directors who, and they're, and people are making them for the art. It's still happening. Then there's this other side, and I think this is something that's both a reaction to some of the filmmaking that's happened in the last ten to fifteen years, and also an appreciation of some of the filmmakers. To where gigantic budgets are being given to people that we know are amazing filmmakers.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  And these films don't have any of those same constraints.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  There are people on the other end of this that are going, Van, they earned that. You're right. They, they earned it. They, how you gonna sit down and talk to the director of, talk about the director of The Master, and then talk about how much money he should be given to make a movie? It's a silly thing to do, but somebody has to do it. And, and, and I'm just, and, and the reason why, and the reason why I'm saying this, I'm not talking about the budget itself. I'm talking about the idea that the film doesn't have to be profitable, or the idea that the movie, there's one part of the equation that it just doesn't have to meet. To me, the health of the industry for the smaller filmmaker denotes that someone should say, hey,

• 5:41Speaker 02

  everyone should have to at least care to a degree about the fiscal responsibility of the movies that they're making, because they're asking the smaller filmmakers to do that, and they're pinching pennies when they give them money. Even Sinners. Sinners comes out, Sinners, fuck before the movie. Sinners, he gets ninety million dollars to make it. Forget about before the movie. The movie actually opens. It opens big. And the immediate conversation was, okay, this is a big opening, but look how much further this film has to go to attain profitability. Now, there's a whole audience of people that honestly did not care whether or not centers made money at all because it was a cultural celebration of who they were.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  And it seemed as if the town was directly saying, yeah, but this is going to significantly alter and change filmmaking if this movie doesn't make money. And so, everybody went, fuck it, we going to see it, right? Over and over and over and over again because we need to see more films like this. That was one reason why. There were, people just like it. They liked it and the word of mouth was crazy, right? I saw that bitch four times and that was because, it was also because of that. He sold me on the Kodak shit. The 10-minute Kodak thing, I had to see the movie. It's related to what we're discussing here. Right.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of. Major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now, I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 7:33Speaker 05

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 8:20Speaker 05

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  This film comes out, 170, the tracking says 22. And all I said was, nah, it needs to make money. And the reason why I'm saying it is just me trying to keep the same energy, even amongst the geniuses. I've had so many conversations with so many people that I respect about this. There were some filmmakers or people that I know that reached out,

• 8:52Speaker 02

  prominent ones, and said, what you said is true. And then there were others that said, let me explain to you why what you're talking about is actually not the way to look at it. I respect both, both schools of thought. The only thing that I'm saying is that like, there still has to be someone who is saying that, and I guess this is what I'm saying,

• 9:20Speaker 02

  that the responsibility, both creatively and financially, for a piece of art has to exist with the haves and the have-nots alike. That's all that I was trying to say.

• 9:33Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's a reasonable thing to be asking for that is unrealistic to expect.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I think that I, I agree with, I agree with you, but also

• 9:47Amanda Dobbins?

  it leads me to a different conclusion, which is really our experience in life.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is just like that the commodification of art

• 9:56Amanda Dobbins?

  produces inequality and bummer outcomes that disproportionately affects, you know, people without resources, people starting out, people who don't make art, who haven't made a ton of art and then who thus, because they have to get fed in the system to make their art, don't get to make it the way that they want. That sucks. That's bad. I think, and like, and I wish that that were not the case. I think that this is an example of someone using

• 10:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Money and the commodification of art to their own goals and to like because PTA like escaped the system for whatever reason like I don't think he should be punished. I think we should just, we should celebrate that and be like, he got a ton of money from a corporation that we don't like very much to do whatever he wants and more people should get to do that, you know, and I, and to Sean's point, like, you're right that it's more like more people are not going to get to do that and it's unfair, but I don't want to punish him. I don't like, I don't want to celebrate the corporation, you know, I don't want to celebrate the, I want to celebrate the fact that someone is getting to use the money to do what they want and say

• 11:18Amanda Dobbins?

  we should like more people should get to do that. And I, but that's not, that's like, that's a fantasy land. That's not gonna happen. I know that.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  I agree with you. And this is where I have to be the bummer. And so let's go ahead and inject race.

• 11:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Of course. Yeah. It's a white filmmaker. I get it.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  And so not just, not just white filmmaker, but like also man, right? So the bummer of it is that in the movies that PTA has made, right? Like all of these films, these are highly artistic, very ambitious movies. And they are accepted and lauded because a lot of times they don't need to be culturally translated. So if you have a certain filmmaking understanding, you get Punching Up Love, you get The Mask, you get Inheriting Vice, you get these movies,

• 12:16Speaker 02

  right? A lot of our filmmakers, and a lot of our films, black people and women and queer filmmakers. Their magnum opuses aren't received the same way. So the question is, how are they going to become PTA?

• 12:35Sean Fennessey?

  What do you mean by that?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Meaning that-

• 12:37Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know if I agree with that.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Meaning that the guy who just made, the guy who made Mo Better Blues has never gotten a $170 million budget.

• 12:44Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  The guy who made Malcolm X and Do the Right Thing and Bamboozled and those, that guy never got a $170 million budget. That, I mean, that guy just put a movie out a couple of, a couple of weeks ago that, that opened in two cities, was made for like 15 or 20 million dollars.

• 13:01Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, no, no.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  What, what was it? What was it made for?

• 13:04Sean Fennessey?

  No, highest and lowest is made for a lot more money than that.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Okay, what was it made for?

• 13:07Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, there's, it's, if it's under 50, I'll be stunned.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Okay, 50, okay.

• 13:10Sean Fennessey?

  I'll be stunned. Action set pieces, Denzel paycheck.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Well, I can be honest with you. That bitch look like-

• 13:17Amanda Dobbins?

  A lot of people, a lot of people turning off highest to lowest after, after 40 minutes, which I understand why, but they're missing, you know, once again, the apple of it all.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  So, so, so, all I'll say, and when I-

• 13:29Sean Fennessey?

  I think the 170 is what's got, and if it is 170, who knows?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  150, 130, whatever it is.

• 13:35Sean Fennessey?

  That feels new and big. That's a really big number for a filmmaker who's never made, had, made a movie that has made more than 75 million dollars. What I was trying to say, what I was talking about earlier this week is, this is just a major anomaly.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Real quick, you, and you were right about that.

• 13:51Sean Fennessey?

  This is, this does not happen every week with white filmmakers, like-

• 13:54Speaker 02

  It doesn't.

• 13:55Sean Fennessey?

  Like, unless it's IP.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Right, it, it, it doesn't. It doesn't happen every, every week with, with white filmmakers. And you, you explained to me the reasons why it happened and I, and I, I accept those. But what I'm trying to say is that the ability for, for Coogler to even get to the point to where he could say, I want 90 million to make, um, this specific cultural film that I want to make that's set to-

• 14:21Amanda Dobbins?

  And I want the, and, and the rights.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he had to make- Billions of dollars at the box office.

• 14:28Amanda Dobbins?

  You're right.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Billions of dollars.

• 14:30Sean Fennessey?

  We are completely line up.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  And then, and then even after his movie opened, they still counted his money.

• 14:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  And so when, when, when I say, all right, well, maybe that should also exist for the guy who made, who is my favorite filmmaker, who made The Master.

• 14:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Like, maybe that's it. People are like, shut up, you're, I'm like, I'm really just saying, does anybody see what's happening? Like, does anyone see what's going on?

• 14:54Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, the, the whole Sinner's box office, like, discourse, it, like, was a nightmare, uh, and...

• 15:01Speaker 02

  But the whole town shot it down, if I'm being honest.

• 15:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  There were a bunch of people came out that were wats. Like yourselves, that were like, why are we talking about this?

• 15:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for that.

• 15:12Sean Fennessey?

  It was one of the most bad faith planted arguments to the trades. It was coming in almost entirely from the trades, and it was either competing executives who were trying to a- a- avoid what Coogler was able to get.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:24Sean Fennessey?

  Or executives at Warner Brothers who were like, let's make sure that this guy doesn't get too comfortable with what we gave him in this scenario.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Fair enough.

• 15:31Sean Fennessey?

  We can speculate in either direction. That was, I, that, that conversation sucked and was stupid. And also, we've seen every Ryan Coogler movie. He makes crowd pleasing movies that people want to go see. Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:43Amanda Dobbins?

  But it's also, I think that those same bad faith people are also the bad faith people being like, well, this didn't make enough money and this is a fail, you know, they're like, they're, they're, they're the bean counters. And I just, you know, I don't want you to be a bean counter.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  I'm not a bean counter. The movies that I loved coming up, I was able to make a movie with Boaz Akine.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Fresh, Me Vida Loca, uh, like, the, the films that really, in the nineties, that, I mean, there were some, obviously, there were some big ones too. I, these films weren't, what was the one with, uh...

• 16:19Speaker 02

  You guys will remember it. I love this movie. I can't remember the name of it. Was it The Dreamers with, um, with Michael Pitt?

• 16:25Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah. The Bernardo Berdolucci movie.

• 16:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Those are the joints that like I used to sit and see in Lang Theater.

• 16:32Sean Fennessey?

  Eva Green, yeah, hello.

• 16:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I'm talking about prosthetics.

• 16:37Amanda Dobbins?

  No, those are real. I know why we can talk about the differences.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Those are the movies that would, that deepened my love for film. Puss Drunk Love.

• 16:45Sean Fennessey?

  Me too.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Like, those are the films that so I'm, so Box Office is not a concern with how I view a movie outside of the Marvel films, which are amusement park rides and are, there's so much money spent on that they need to make.

• 16:59Sean Fennessey?

  Let me, let me ask you a question.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:00Sean Fennessey?

  The, this idea that you're presenting and that you're, you're the watcher on the wall for this. You know, it's like, keep the same energy for both movies for when it's one situation versus another.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:11Sean Fennessey?

  Are you talking to, do you feel that you are talking to movie studio executives? Do you feel that you are talking to fans on social media? Do you feel you are talking to white critics and film bros? Like, who do you, who are you communicating this to? Because that's the thing I was trying to unpack.

• 17:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Are you speaking to Sean and Amanda? That's, that's valuable.

• 17:29Sean Fennessey?

  You could just call me.

• 17:30Amanda Dobbins?

  You're right here.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  I know, um.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  That's a really good question. And the answer is kind of everyone.

• 17:38Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 17:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  I'm speaking to everyone for different reasons. I'm trying to call attention to the fact that there is a couple of different standards. And your movie that you think is the greatest movie objectively? Like, I show the master to people and I've told them that this is one of the best films, maybe the best film of the decade. And they've gotten an hour into it and it'd be like, yo, this dude is drinking Lhasa. What the fuck are you talking about? Like, what, like, what, like, what is this? And they, your movie that you think is like the greatest movie, there is someone who doesn't get it.

• 18:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  And other films.

• 18:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Like, that, that, there, it's, so.

• 18:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  You're, the criteria of who should be rewarded and then not expected to.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Be financially, financially viable. Even that is totally subjective, right? So your, your genius is somebody else's, hey, I don't get it. And somebody else's, hey, I don't get it, is a genius to someone. So there is no, but Van is PTA. I agree with you.

• 18:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  But I'm trying to tell you that if we're talking in the sense of just dollars, then that's not really a criteria right there. I would love to see him get as much money. But also, I am just having a conversation and letting people know that like,

• 19:02Speaker 02

  there are people who I think are really, really deserving of being able to tell their stories in grand, amazing ways, and no one fucking cares about them.

• 19:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, because there's not a proven path to them making money. Because you have to, you have to come with the marketing deck. You have to come with the sales members.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Like, you know what I'm saying? No one fucking cares about them. And part of me, ruffling feathers, is just to have that conversation.

• 19:29Amanda Dobbins?

  You're right.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Um, now, talk to Sean, talk to Jack Sanders. Jack was a warrior. Uh, Jack went to war. Talk to everyone. I get it. I get it.

• 19:39Amanda Dobbins?

  You never come to me.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Well, we, we talk about different things, though.

• 19:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's true.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, we talk about different things. I get it.

• 19:46Sean Fennessey?

  But also, Amanda finishes recording and she walks out of the office. She's like, I am not staying here today. I stay in the office.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  She's the Rachel Lindsay of the big picture. She's gone. Um, but I, I, I totally accepted everybody's pushback. In good faith and in bad faith, I get it. And I will say this. In the grand scheme of things, is it amazing? Amazing for someone to get that much money to tell their movie and then not have to be worried about it being four quadrant or any of those things? Yes, it is. You guys are right. My question to you is who's next?

• 20:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  And that's it, because I care about the next person that gets a chance to do that. And I care that there are other stories that are like that. And I care that that next person is me.

• 20:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you know who I've been thinking about a lot is, and I have not seen her next two movies, is Nia DeCosta. So Nia DeCosta made a small independent feature with Tessa Thompson. And then she leapt from that movie to a reboot of Candyman, and then she made The Marvels. And Candyman and The Marvels both underperformed. The Marvels in particular had a really, really bad box office performance.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  She got a raw deal.

• 21:04Sean Fennessey?

  And there was a lot of discussion about who was responsible for that. Was it Marvel's mismanagement of the project? Did that movie get chopped up or taken away from her? Already working inside the Marvel system, Kevin Feige, very much the author of a lot of those stories, if not all of them.

• 21:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Also, I mean, that movie is about three young women. And the audience has like a certain bias.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  It wasn't as bad as what they said it was.

• 21:30Amanda Dobbins?

  It was not.

• 21:32Sean Fennessey?

  Compared to what everything else that was happening at that time out of Marvel, it was like, it was kind of on par with what a lot of those movies are. Anyhow, her next two movies now are she has a reimagining of Hedda, Hedda Gobbler, with Tessa Thompson, that Amazon is putting out next month or this month, actually, it's October. And then she has the sequel to 28 Years Later, which is coming out in January, The Bone Temple.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Bone Temple.

• 21:56Sean Fennessey?

  And I'm really interested to see what happens with her career. Because there really has not been a black female filmmaker who has been consistently working both in independent cinema, making, you know, character studies and franchise films. She's, this will be her third franchise film.

• 22:15Sean Fennessey?

  And to me, what she is allowed to do in the future, I think is kind of meaningful to what you're describing here, because she made The Marvels and then got a shot at 28 Years Later. Like, she obviously pitched that, pitched her vision of that movie as a follow up to a Danny Boyle movie, written by Alex Garland, and she got that job, she earned that job. That would not have happened probably 20 years ago. And I'm not saying that things are good.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  They're certainly different.

• 22:42Sean Fennessey?

  They're evolved.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm not gonna, look, you guys, I get it. I look around right now, and one of the reasons why it's such a great time to tell stories is because there is so much talent out there. There are so many different mediums, so many different ways, so many different avenues. If you decided that you didn't give a fuck about anything, you could take all the money from the crypto bros or whatever, and you go out there, they all want to be producers. They all, like, so there's all kinds of ways, but I guess my thing is

• 23:15Speaker 02

  the power of story, like, you know what I think people are really talking about? Is what they feel is inspired. Like, when you watch There Will Be Blood, there is a point in the movie, even for me, I think it was like 27 or 28 when it came out, that I was looking at the film and going, like, why am I looking at this? Like, what?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Okay, let me pull back a little bit. For filmmakers, for, like myself, people that watch movies like myself, an important story is because the message is important. Because like, not necessarily because the theme is important. The message means, look at how these people are living, or look what happens to these people, or look at this, and that's what makes an important story. So you get, you sit down and you get a good movie with great performances, and you get just hit over the head with, this is how the world should change.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  You don't get that from some of these other films. You get deep exploration of the human condition, right? But you don't come away thinking, right now I have to boycott this, or stop doing this, or read this.

• 24:25Sean Fennessey?

  But I would much rather the latter than the former.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  But what I'm telling you is that it, it, for me, what I'm saying is, there are all types of filmmakers whose stories are important for all types of reasons. Like, there are people that are, like, struggling and just, like, dying for you to know just about how This thirteen year old kid in Pakistan lives and it's the most important thing to them. Either one of those, I think sometimes, one, one part of that, from black people particularly, our stories have to be societally important. Mm hmm. Like, they, they have to be about the condition of race or whatever. And if you tell good movies like that, race or oppression, if you tell good movies like that,

• 25:12Speaker 02

  then people sometimes reward you with rewards and stuff like that. But the deep exploration of a Thursday in Los Angeles that went bad, a lot of times we don't get rewarded for telling those stories. Mm hmm. And. Yeah. And because people don't glom onto those parts of our lives. Right. I'm saying a lot to say this. I just want equality and genius. I think I agree. And this has nothing to do with PTA. This has nothing to do with Scorsese. This has nothing to do.

• 25:48Sean Fennessey?

  You want them to give the money back.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 25:50Sean Fennessey?

  You want them.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  I don't want them to give you money back.

• 25:52Sean Fennessey?

  These movies should be deleted, you said.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't. I like.

• 25:56Sean Fennessey?

  And you think they're frauds?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  I like the fact that they don't have to work. If, if anybody, yo, if you've ever been on an independent film set, if you've ever been on a film set where people don't have a lot of money, man, it could be fraught. It could, you could see a DP sweating bullets, like, guys, please.

• 26:13Sean Fennessey?

  You do know that both of those filmmakers, though, that their roots are in that.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:17Sean Fennessey?

  They are, they are from that experience.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  They are from that. And over the course of their career, they have been rewarded for their excellence and genius, but also for the fact that people understand the movies that they make.

• 26:29Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  And that is also a part of the reason why we're seeing them being like rewarded with the budgets. I'm just saying, there's a whole part of filmmaking, maybe I can say it best this way, that people don't understand as well. Because there aren't people that appreciate those types of films or those types of filmmakers that are bean counters and decision makers and everywhere else. So the only saving grace that they have is that their movies turn a profit, that they make some sort of money. Or, or that they're about enough pain that people feel like they have to tell their friends to watch them. And so, and so for me. I don't always want to tell the story of some abused person.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  And I don't always want to tell the story of... Sometimes I just want the quirkiness of other people to result in a $170 million budget.

• 27:22Amanda Dobbins?

  There's a really good Kelly Reichert quote in the 824 piece in The New Yorker. Kelly Reichert, one of the great American filmmakers and someone who makes small movies and makes quirky stuff. And I love them.

• 27:38Sean Fennessey?

  Nobody's giving her 170 anytime soon.

• 27:39Amanda Dobbins?

  And she made several movies with 824. And then she says quite honestly that 824, as they have expanded their ambitions, the movies that she wants to make are no longer right. And what she says is like, I feel lucky that I got two or three films with 824. She was like, I'm happy that they were, you know, in the mix for a while. And like, now they're not anymore. But it was like, pretty crushing little anecdote in, you know, what is a celebratory piece about 824.

• 28:06Sean Fennessey?

  We're making an episode about The Smashing Machine, which is part of the elevation of 824. This is a 60, 70 million dollar movie about an MMA fighter.

• 28:14Amanda Dobbins?

  So, you know, that to me is just kind of like, you know, the industry, like business stocks, business crushes and like all genius and art and allied people and boo corporations.

• 28:30Sean Fennessey?

  I can't boo the corporations because you need the corporations to pay for the art. You need the corporations to be the Medici's for the filmmakers.

• 28:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but that is what they are.

• 28:42Sean Fennessey?

  It has been true since the beginning of the art form.

• 28:44Amanda Dobbins?

  It just, that anecdote also illustrates, it's like, they are the Demici's. It is, I mean, it is both business, but it is like, who is going to decide to be a patron for this amount of time? And Van's point is correct of like, when, who decides to be a patron and what they decide that they want to patronize is, I mean, sponsor, you know, is like, tends to be a certain kind of guys.

• 29:07Sean Fennessey?

  Of course. Yeah, people who you're more comfortable spending time with socially or that you understand better or that you idolize or that you see yourself in.

• 29:14Amanda Dobbins?

  And certain types of stories.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  And that's not to say...

• 29:17Sean Fennessey?

  But that's not what one battle after another is.

• 29:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, all right, go. Let's do it.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Okay, so I'm gonna be totally honest. I saw one battle after another and I, you can't not like it, it's really good.

• 29:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Two things, one, I don't, I legitimately, and I, you guys.

• 29:34Amanda Dobbins?

  It's okay.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  But the criticism before, I legitimately don't understand the gas. Like, honestly, honestly don't understand the gas.

• 29:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, but you mean that like, you don't mean like literally the Sean Penn gas.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Nah, the Sean Penn gas is different.

• 29:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, okay, but I was like, am I gonna need to explain like?

• 29:50Speaker 02

  That's different.

• 29:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Like, the, Sean Penn's character is written to rule the movie. And he does rule the movie.

• 29:57Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so funny, um, Jomi was in here and was talking about that and I, I was saying like, I basically don't think of that character when I think about the movie. And what like, I mean like, it's obviously integral to what's going on in the movie and the performance is like alarming and, but when, when I am thinking, what sticks with me? It's like, Sean Penn is not in the frame.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  So Sean Penn, and this is why this movie is such a fantastic piece of art.

• 30:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Sean Penn's character in the movie to me is the only character that actually has a want. Every, like, everybody else is responding to his want, to his thing. And that, and his want is so, it, it, it becomes.

• 30:35Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, that's not true. I, Chase Infiniti's character has a want.

• 30:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Infiniti has a, doesn't know what her want is, but like, that's part of the thing that she's trying to figure out.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  So Chase Infiniti's character really doesn't have a want. She's placed in peril and, and she's reactionary to everything that she's placed into.

• 30:50Sean Fennessey?

  I, I mean, when we, when we meet her, we, we meet a young girl who's trying to find her own way, who's trying to find independence from her father, this weird sheltered life that's been explored for her, she's trying to build a life of her own, and the reason that we care that she's in peril is because we've seen that.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Ah, for me, I'll, I'll just talk about for me. The reason why, the reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was in peril. Really, the reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was an innocent. And I think characters like that are always interesting because they didn't sign up for. It's the classic kid thing. I didn't ask to be here.

• 31:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  So how can you have these rules for me? You're you're inflicting your rules based upon your life on me, and I didn't ask for none of this.

• 31:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  And so with the the things that are hap-

• 31:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I disagree with that.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  The the things that are happening to her are happening to her because of mistakes and situations that other people have made and put her in.

• 31:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Yep.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  And so watching her climb out of those mistakes and situations is very satisfactory. It's it's very satisfying, should I say? But the person that is saying, I have to get her, I have to do this, even that like starts our narrative with the want of perfidia. The the the person that spins all of this into a story is Lockjaw. That's why, to me, Lockjaw is the media's character in the thing because and that's why his death, the first death, particularly the second death, is not needed. But the the the first-

• 32:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, you didn't like the T2 homage?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Nah, the the the the first death, the reason why is it is it was so uh it was so perfect was because it was so unceremonious. It was just, hey, guess what? It's the way things work in life. You fucked with the wrong people, no one even, boom, head blown off. I I was like, wow, to take him out like that. You wanted all these things, you wanted to be a part of the Christmas motherfuckers, and you wanted to do all of this stuff. Boom, you you you did the wrong thing, head blown off.

• 32:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yep.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Um, so, I mean, not necessarily. I'm I'm looking at the film and I'm thinking the film is is hysterical. It was so much funnier than I thought it was gonna be. The performances are all fantastic, all of that, but like.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Like, best movie that we've seen in a long, I just didn't, I didn't see that or feel that in any sort of way. That's. And.

• 33:19Sean Fennessey?

  Do you, do you feel that perhaps you are not emotionally and intellectually incentivized to withhold a little bit based on your presentation about your ideas before you saw the movie?

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Perhaps, um, which is why I'm going to see it again. Okay. Oh, that's exciting. Uh, perhaps, which is why I'm going to see it again.

• 33:35Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not saying I don't trust you, but in the same way that I am not trusted when it comes to a PTA movie, because I, I'm so far in the bag, I have become the bag.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Well, this is your Marvel. And, and so, and by the way, can I tell you guys something? Uh oh. About.

• 33:48Sean Fennessey?

  Here we go. Marvel's back.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Just, let's just have, let's have a conversation about this. There is nothing wrong with being irrationally connected to something that you really care about.

• 33:57Sean Fennessey?

  Of course, I agree with that.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Everybody that's kicking my ass, I like this. That's what I understand about me.

• 34:03Sean Fennessey?

  Kicking your ass.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Well, everybody that's going, like, everybody that's doing this, I like this. Because this shows me an intense connection to moving cinema and media. And this is what has to happen for movies to get made and people to get their shot. Yeah. You have to fucking care. So I enjoy it. But I also understand that a lot of films are looked at in two different ways. And this happens in rap a lot too. You know this. If your repu, your reputation precedes you to the point, well, he used to write. I grew up in Atlanta. What, what is this? That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, there we go. Um, it is, it's like, the, the better people think you are, the more they allow you to fail.

• 34:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  And, and, and not that this movie is in any way a failure, except for one way.

• 34:50Sean Fennessey?

  Kingdom Come happened and we were like, we'll move on.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 34:53Sean Fennessey?

  We'll, we'll.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  It's Jay.

• 34:54Sean Fennessey?

  We'll get to 444.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Jay. You know he can do it. So even if it, there's one way that this movie fails. Okay. And we talked about it on Midnight Boys. This movie fails black women. Hmm, okay.

• 35:06Sean Fennessey?

  I knew, I.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

• 35:08Sean Fennessey?

  Go ahead.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  And.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Man, there is a, because, and this is the nut kick. There are black women in this movie and they are some of the most talented, amazing performers that we have. Tiana Taylor, Regina Hall, you do not want to, um, they would not endeavor into anything that they didn't think is nourishing. So I'm really interested to see how they are going to respond to some of the criticism of the movie. I'm not gonna say anything that's original. Brooke Obie, the great Brooke Obie, has talked about this. A lot of other people have written about this. This movie basically came out at the same time that Asa Shukor died.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Um, an actual, real-life, black female revolutionary. The portrayal of perfidia Beverly Hills in this movie, um, despite being really well portrayed, almost otherworldly by Tiana Taylor, is an abomination. It's, it's, it's like, it, it is.

• 36:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. But say why. Because of the actions that the character takes?

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Because of, I, I, it was typically, and, you know, I was verbose on this about the, on the midnight bus about it, but intention is what matters when you're talking about the care of black women. The situation that black women exist, and particularly black women with a certain political thrust, that have put their lives on the line for revolution, the way that they've been undermined, exiled, and treated in America is intentional. So when there is a portrayal of a black woman, particularly a black woman that exists in the space that perfidia Beverly Hills exists in, you want to see that same intention in them, that same care in them. And what you really kind of got was someone that was so...

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Grotesquely selfish and unaware that everyone that she met was worse off because of it. And it's just an interesting standpoint to watch a white male writer-director put a black female character in. Like, it it it's just an interest, it's an interesting thing. I've seen really compelling arguments on both sides of this, like, hey, true freedom is the ability to be flawed and be redeemed, all of that. I've seen that and I I hold space for that, but like-

• 37:37Sean Fennessey?

  It's dramatics, it's not documentary.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  I I I I understand, but I also understand that there are tropes that exist. I mean, there might be a dramatic place for blackface to exist in a film like this or some other place. That doesn't mean I want to see it. And that doesn't mean I want to see it done irresponsibly.

• 37:57Sean Fennessey?

  Sure.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And so I think one way that we can all kind of show that we are in lockstep as filmmaking fans is to accept some of this criticism and understand where it's coming from.

• 38:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  And when you see someone, like, let's fuck while the bomb goes off, goes in there, she's trying to liberate people, get your dick up, she has sex with both of the white protagonists, gets pregnant by one, abandons her child because she's too safe, then then snitches on the whole thing and leaves, and then writes on the the wall, this pussy don't pop for you no more. That seems like somebody's fetish fantasy. It just, it it it it it seems like somebody's fetish fantasy.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  I know this is adapted from something, and that character is not a black lady in this, but I think that actually makes it worse.

• 38:53Speaker 06

  Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment options matters. Discover what's possible with Trinphaya. Guselkamap. Trinphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability- ...to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible. Or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trumphyia and visit trumphyiarradio.com.

• 39:38Sean Fennessey?

  This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail-biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support whatever you're into, like re-watching a director's entire catalog in the lead-up to their latest release. And like those friends, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you.

• 40:20Sean Fennessey?

  So you can check coverage off the list and spend more time debating movie rankings. Go online at statefarm.com or use the easily accessible app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Do you think it's mitigated at all by the fact that her daughter is the hero of the story?

• 40:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 40:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think it's mitigated at all by?

• 40:46Sean Fennessey?

  To me, I think that the presentation of those ideas, which I went on Wesley Morris's pod, which I think was up later this week, and we talked about this a little bit on his show, too. I anticipated this, and it's very understandable. I mean, this is a very raw portrayal.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Listen to him.

• 41:03Sean Fennessey?

  If people get into your mentions about like, this is like woke revolutionary propaganda or whatever, I'm like, if you look at how perfidia is characterized, this is not a celebration of someone who's pursuing that lifestyle at all. In fact, it's like, it's a very harsh portrayal. And you can say insensitive or wrong.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Well, insensitive, not only that, but like also it, she, Leonardo DiCaprio is holding her child, and she spits to him a bunch of bullshit about the revolution when really she didn't see it that way.

• 41:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So this is what I, this is what I wanted to ask you. I mean, his question, is it mitigated by? Her daughter, a young black woman being like the hero. But is it mitigated by? It's an incredibly selfish character. And also a character that does everything. Or a movie that has the character do everything that you just said. Which is, you know, a stereotype, like a stereotype fetish. Fetishes, fetishization. It's very hard on this little summary. All in one. I do think that both the filmmaking and the performance

• 42:18Amanda Dobbins?

  at least explores or tries to signal at like, why that's happening? And why, or ask the question of why is this person so selfish? And why is this person doing these things? And does the exploration, maybe, and maybe that doesn't, but that scene that you were talking about in particular. He's holding her baby. And she has just gone through a montage I like, keep thinking about, which is, some people have called it postpartum depression, but like, I don't, we don't even need to add that name to it. It's just the really disorienting feeling of having given birth to another human. And what does that mean to you? And what does that mean for the other person?

• 43:02Amanda Dobbins?

  And what does that make you? How, what is your concept of yourself? Like, as a mother, what is the concept of like, being a mother? Is that different from being a person? And then, you know, I, this scene when she's with Lockjaw. And it, his like, his boner starts first. And then she's like, I see that I have some sort of power. But like, what is, to me, Tiana Taylor's performance explores like,

• 43:36Amanda Dobbins?

  The feelings and the experiences of those stereotypes in a way. And maybe it doesn't for you and maybe it doesn't communicate. And if it, but if it did, would that mitigate it? Or is it?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  So her irresponsibility starts before she gives birth. Like they're sitting down and she's drinking and stuff. And he goes, it's like she doesn't even know that she's pregnant.

• 43:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Everybody talks about how hapless Bob is. But he wasn't hapless when he knew that he was going to become a father. It changed everything for him.

• 44:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Also, can I just like, as you know, that's also an example of a white man policing, like, you know, what someone wants to do. And my experience of pregnancy was like, a bunch of people telling me what I can't do and can or can't do with my body in ways that, by the way, is still happening like all the time, you know?

• 44:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I'm sorry for all those comments I made to you.

• 44:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, thank you.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 44:25Amanda Dobbins?

  But like, you know, so even that, I guess like he's being responsible. But also it's like she can do whatever she wants.

• 44:34Sean Fennessey?

  This is, this is me from a very privileged perch communicating this. But when I was watching the movie, and I've seen the movie four times now. To me, that character is an expression of the necessary self-preservation and coercion that happens when you are a black woman pursuing these ideas in the world. And that there is a, a way that you are fetishized, that you are made into an icon of a certain type, and that there are a lot of men and a lot of lockjaw's in the world that put you in positions of, I don't know about helplessness, but surrender because of their power. And also that the entire movie is about one generation's version of revolution and another generation's version of revolution.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  And commentary on that.

• 45:20Sean Fennessey?

  And, and the impossibility because of the ruthlessness of our system, I think in some ways to pursue violent revolution, which is what Perfidia represents. She represents a no holds barred pursuit, a, an explosive, aggressive, criminal pursuit, not a nonviolent pursuit. And the tension there, I don't, I, I don't know that, I don't think it's judging her.

• 45:46Sean Fennessey?

  If you want to say she does terrible things.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Oh, it doesn't judge her at all. It doesn't, the movie doesn't judge her at all. The movie, as a matter of fact, doesn't actually.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Investigate almost anything about her. I guess my thing is, like, I know those black lady revolutionaries, but not the ones that are, and they, they mamas, and they.

• 46:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I mean, they're not selfish. They're not crumpled.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  They are, hold on, they are the opposite of selfish. Their politic, and I'm not saying that this means that perfidias has to be. Their politic for the, for the entire world and society comes from the way that they feel like their children should be accepted and reared in it.

• 46:32Sean Fennessey?

  But perfidia exists in that lineage. We see her grandmother talking to Bob, saying, my daughter, or my granddaughter comes from a long line of revolutionaries. I think the thing that I'm trying to point out here is that perfidia is one character.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  But those women, the movie isn't about those women. The movie is about her.

• 46:50Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's not about her. She is in the prologue.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  I know, but what I'm saying, when I say it's about her, I mean, they're in it, in the background, the character. Like, every other, so Regina Hall's character, every black woman that shows care in the movie is punished for it.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's accidental, but it happened.

• 47:11Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's on purpose.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Right, right, so, yeah.

• 47:12Sean Fennessey?

  Because it's the most vulnerable class in our society. That's the whole point of the movie.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but at the same time, perfidia is one of the people in the movie that punished other black women. All of this stuff is happening to them because of her. So.

• 47:30Sean Fennessey?

  She took actions, she exists inside of a system that coerces her.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  She snitched, she made, she made, she snitched, got jungle pussy killed, she destroyed her own revolution, sent everybody running for the hills, she put her, she abandoned her daughter, and then, when Regina Hall comes back into the movie to save her daughter and brings her to the nuns, she brings Lockjaw's rage, rage with her and destroys all of those last.

• 47:59Amanda Dobbins?

  And every single one of the nuns is handcuffed. There is that shot of them looking at her. I mean, you're right.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Every single one of them is. Is is is is gone. I'm not saying that this was all done in intentional messaging from the from the writer director from PTA. But what I'm saying is that like oftentimes that character might mean more to me than it does to other people. The portrayal of that character might mean more to me. I might feel a little bit more inclined to be like, what are we trying to say here? Right? And it, somebody else might be sitting at their desk going, I'm gonna write a cool, sexy badass black chick. I'm gonna write, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do all of this stuff. It it does strike to me that like when, it it strikes me, should I say, that when Quentin Tarantino

• 48:48Speaker 02

  decided that he was going to like orient his movie around a black woman. He treat, somebody who has a fraught

• 48:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  relationship with race. He treated her with so much care. Like so, and that might have been his respect for Pam Grier. That that that might have been what that was about. But it seemed like at least there was an understanding that a middle aged black female needs for someone to be able to zoom out and look at the entirety of what that means and what and the decisions she would have to make. And the movie almost like in that film, she almost floats around on clouds and watches the chaos around her and has the wherewithal and the gumption to be able to navigate it. It's in a very empowering performance.

• 49:38Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, you're describing a movie, you're describing the hero of a movie. And perfidia is not the hero of this movie.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  She's the villain. And so, and and so, and

• 49:47Sean Fennessey?

  She's not, she's not.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Well, she's one of the villains of the film. How could she not be?

• 49:50Sean Fennessey?

  She's does terrible things, but that doesn't make you a villain in a movie. Lockjaw is the villain, Lockjaw is the agent of the system that puts perfidia in this situation in the first place.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  She, he is the agent of the system and

• 50:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And he is also literally the person who impregnates her, which is, you know, there's a

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Like

• 50:07Sean Fennessey?

  A load bearing metaphor there.

• 50:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Sean Fennessey?

  Quite literally a load.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  What I'm, what I'm saying is all of these things are choices that she's made where she centers herself. And

• 50:20Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, you're right.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  And, and like

• 50:24Speaker 02

  That is the opposite of what black female activists and revolutionaries do. You're also, yes. They prioritize their communities and their families. They, they take on family. They take, everybody becomes their family.

• 50:40Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  To a point that they

• 50:42Sean Fennessey?

  This is important.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Live lives Yeah, yeah, yeah. In, in, in peril lives for decades, for their entire life because of their decisions to put other people before them.

• 50:52Sean Fennessey?

  This is like a really, uh, complex philosophical dynamic that you're describing. What you're talking about is the value of representation. Is it better for the film and better for society that the film depict, depict, if it's going to depict a black female revolutionary, that it do so in what you would describe as true terms and that also feel like moral terms? That for the movie's sake, it is better if perfidia Beverly Hills does not rat, goes into a kind of seclusion or is killed and made a martyr figure? And then the story can go from there. Or is this the creation of an artist? Granted, a white male artist, but the creation of an artist?

• 51:35Sean Fennessey?

  And that the story and what the movie is ultimately driving towards, which is ultimately about this tension between two generations trying to make change? Is that ultimately more important? And do you want to empower the artist? Because you premised a lot of this conversation on people being able to express themselves and say the things that they want to say that are valuable to them. And it, whether it be a $2 million or $170 million.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:55Sean Fennessey?

  So you get into an area where you're effectively policing characterization by saying, this is not okay that this person in this film, it does these things because this is not what the movement is about. I would always quibble with that. That is in the territory of like borderline censorship that I'm ultimately not comfortable with. But I am also a white guy hosting a movie podcast in my 40s. I'm aware of what it means to say that. And that it's easier for me to say, he should be able to do whatever he wants. But it is very, very complicated. Once you start saying, this was the worst part of the movie because I didn't like what it showed about something that I feel is not true in society.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Only for black people does truth equate to censorship. And the reason why I say that is because what we've begged is for an accurate representation of us for a long time. And sometimes what comes back is.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  These are the stories. If you want to be in them, we should be able to tell them the way we see them. And we're saying, okay, that's not us. And not only is that not us, but this is, it's so not us that it plays into tropes that have been used to minimize us. Can we talk about it? Like, can we discuss the fact, and we are discussing it.

• 53:13Sean Fennessey?

  We are, we are.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Let me just, just to be real with you.

• 53:16Sean Fennessey?

  I'm very happy to discuss it.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we, we are discussing it. And I'll, you know, a, a company man, I don't have this, people can say what the fuck they want about this place, but we've been discussing it, like, on podcasts, in the fucking room. Ever, we've been talking about it. And nobody has gotten, maybe Jack got pissed off a little bit. No, like, nobody has gotten mad, nobody has stormed out, nobody has not had. Yeah. Nobody has not had the conversation. We've been doing that. But what, what I'm saying is that, like, it, no one wants to see PTA or anybody else have to write to what they feel the best intentions of a character are, because that makes for boring movies.

• 53:57Sean Fennessey?

  Right. That's ultimately what I'm getting at.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  True. But after generations, we do just start to ask why. And by the way, these are not just conversations that we have about Paul Thomas Anderson's movies. We have them about Tyler Perry's movies. And goddamn it, if we gonna have them about Tyler Perry's movies, or about hip hop, or about any of this stuff, if we're gonna have these conversations intra-communally, then we certainly gonna have them. Yeah. Where we see movies that are about to win 10 Oscars and all of that stuff, and about the portrayal of black women in them, we have to have them. Of course. And they're uncomfortable to have when Wood Harris is in it. Do you know how fucking excited I get to see?

• 54:44Sean Fennessey?

  We all would have liked more Wood Harris.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you know how excited I get to see Wood Harris in the movie? Wood Harris should be not just in this movie, Wood Harris should be in every movie. Guess what? He's earned it. He's earned it.

• 54:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Tiana Taylor has earned it.

• 54:59Sean Fennessey?

  My wife was like, what happened to Avon? When you're like 40 minutes into the movie.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Now, yeah, we like, he's earned it. These performers have earned it. And it's so fucking awesome to see them up there with these other people that are minted in the time.

• 55:11Sean Fennessey?

  Part of the reason why I think I'm pushing back on this a little bit, setting, setting aside my fanboys, uh, status.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:19Sean Fennessey?

  Um, this movie goes to great lengths to portray Deandra. This movie goes to, this movie shows us mother superior at the Sisters of the Brave Beaver. You know, this movie does make Chase Infinity ultimately the person who fires the gun and saves the day. Like, it's not, to me, it is not an insensitive portrayal, but it is a portrayal with a lot of nuance and friction. And like, the Perfidia character, just like the character in the film, is a confrontation to the audience. It is a question of, if this person existed, what would happen in the world? And that is something that art, in my opinion, should and can do. So, you might, what you're saying is 100% valid, that after generations of portrayals like this, just saying like, why is it like this? This doesn't feel right.

• 56:04Sean Fennessey?

  I respect it. But I'm very uncomfortable with specifically saying, we can't do this.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Well, it, it's, I don't think anybody is, is saying that you can't. Obviously, you can. I think we're exploring the why more than anything.

• 56:21Amanda Dobbins?

  And that, and also that it doesn't land, you know? And like, and we talked about that even walking out. The decision to make Perfidia the rat, you know, which is like, is from the book, but is just like a very fraught, and you walk out and you, like, even you and I, like, we're questioning the decision, and what does that mean? And what are you representing with that? And, um, it's, and, and did you need to do it? I don't know. Like, that, that to me, you know, I guess I have like editor brain, I'm just like, well, what, why don't we just tweak this? And maybe everyone would be like, a lot happier?

• 56:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 56:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and, but, and then not a lot happier, that sounds reductive, but maybe it would all add up. I, like, I think it's conscious, and I think it is meaning to provoke us.

• 57:08Sean Fennessey?

  100%. In my opinion, I don't think-

• 57:11Amanda Dobbins?

  But I also completely understand if it doesn't land, and-

• 57:17Sean Fennessey?

  But part of why it's good, I think, is because it generated this conversation.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I mean, look, two things. One, when black women roll their eyes, I'm gonna be, I'm just, I'll just be honest with you. Like, like, cultural differences. When black women roll their eyes, my innate response is, what's wrong?

• 57:38Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter where we at. We in a restaurant, eye roll, what's wrong? Like, we in a movie, in a show, eye roll. When black women roll their eyes, what's wrong? What's up? Tell me what's up? Because we, we, we gotta have this conversation. And there's some eye rolling that's going on right now. And I understand why the eye rolling is going on. There's a last thing that gets said.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  There, a lot of times, could be 150 performances that are sometimes pandering with the heroism of certain characters. Sometimes you write them as if they are Mother Superior or whatever like that, sometimes. But when it's something like this that people love so much, we always ask, why do you love that depiction? Like, when it's something like this, and everyone goes, this is the greatest thing ever. The most amazing thing ever. It's, why is it that depiction that you love?

• 58:48Speaker 02

  After Denzel Washington has won, uh, has been nominated for Malcolm X, he, this is not a criticism of Denzel. He has won his Oscar for playing a slave and then a dirty cop. Yep. We always go, well, why is it that? After Halle Berry has been in the town for so long, making great movies, she got, let me be respectful, but you guys have seen Monsters Ball. We always go, that's what y'all like?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Like, okay, alright. Now, i- if, if, if we make the movie, then obviously the characters are more nuanced, right? But, not all the time, but, but then we always go, that's what you like, huh? That's what you will reward. That's like, that's what is the greatest thing. And the question just...

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Why? Like, it, it, and...

• 59:49Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not saying any of these things are solved because they're not solved.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  And then, and then...

• 59:52Sean Fennessey?

  Things have been, I would describe Hollywood in, in this particular aspect as very different in the last 10 years.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  It, it, it...

• 59:58Sean Fennessey?

  There's a, there's, to me, there's a demarcation point between 12 years a slave to now, where that felt to me like kind of the last time when that framework of storytelling... Well, that, but that's a...

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  That's a reaction.

• 1:00:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's a...

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  And I get... Yeah, yeah, and... I get, well, well, by the way, once, once again, this is...

• 1:00:15Sean Fennessey?

  But the character, but the character in Green Book is not the kind of character that you're describing. Mahershala's win there, that's, that's an, that's an elegant artist that is portrayed on screen.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  And listen to me, man, like, you can't, because some of this stuff gets into then we're policing, what kind of roles we should be taking and what kind of stuff, and that is not...

• 1:00:31Sean Fennessey?

  He also did win for, for Moonlight as well.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Which is coming from Barry's mind, which, when you look at the movies that he has made, or that Ava has made, or that I can go down and down and down and up and up and up and up and up, and all, and all of that stuff, you see these three dimensional characters who exist. If, if you were to take Mahershala Ali's character in Moonlight, I'm gonna be real with you, those were the drug dealers that I knew.

• 1:00:59Sean Fennessey?

  One.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Just one. Like, those were the guys that I knew. I didn't know the, the guys that were like, hey, man, fuck everybody, kill them all, doing this. I, I, like, I'm sure those guys were around. The guys that I knew would feel a little bit of shame when looked at their grandmother the wrong way. They were uncomfortable in church. They were odd when people were talking about right and wrong. They knew they were doing wrong. And they also sometimes went overboard to protect you and to put you in a feeling of safety and to do things for you, so you would look the other way while they were doing shit that they knew they had no business doing, but that the choice matrix that they were presented with made them do.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  And so, I just never, it, it, you just got to a point where, where when you saw that character, you were just like, Jesus Christ.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Like, thank you, Barry. Like, that's my Uncle Mark.

• 1:01:59Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  Like, that's him. I cannot read his rap sheet and then tell you that he was a good guy because you're not gonna believe me. Like, once I do it, I can't do that. But that's the fucking guy. That's him, and then he dies just in that movie, and they don't even show it. They just come back, Juan Ben did. That's how it happens, and nobody cares except for the four fucking people that relied on him. And then you get into another film, and it's like, oh. And it's, everything that everyone is saying is correct. And, bro, it just, it feels like being the drag at the fucking party. Well, I'm just saying, let's just talk it out.

• 1:02:38Amanda Dobbins?

  You're not the drag at the party.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  No, no, no. The only reason why I'm saying that is because it's like, this guy, I've been this guy for so long. It's like, I remember when I, when I, when the Kanye thing happened. Like, people from Best Buy, they were emailing me, and they were like, remember that conversation we had in the parking lot outside work when you were going crazy over the Iraq war? I was like, yeah, it's like, glad to see you.

• 1:03:01Sean Fennessey?

  You made that your career.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Made that my whole fucking career. And so, I'm not trying to record, scratch y'all movie. I swear to God, I'm not.

• 1:03:07Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's, it's, it's obviously something that people have been asking us about since we've been raving about it. Most, most people are raving about this. This is one of the more unanimous raves. And now, ten days since release is the time when everyone's gonna be like, are we sure this is good? Let's explore the reason why maybe it isn't working.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Well, it did, okay, two things. The movie is good, but there is, just overall, the overall quality of the film. There is like, I feel like there is a gas to it that I don't understand. Um, but that's besides the point, because we could talk, I, I ranked my PTA movies, and I put The Master Above There Will Be Blood, and people were like, are you fucking with me?

• 1:03:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Same.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  So, so, but, so.

• 1:03:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I did that on the last episode, so I'm, yeah, I'm right there. And then I put this and Phantom Thot above those, so.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. You put, you put this movie above Book United?

• 1:03:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  You're wildin'.

• 1:03:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, he, I mean, he did too.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  You're crazy!

• 1:03:59Amanda Dobbins?

  But, but honestly.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  Crazy People's Podcast. We're changing the name. Change the Lord Thirds. The name of this podcast is no longer The Big Picture. It's The Crazy People's Podcast.

• 1:04:09Amanda Dobbins?

  But also, all of my.

• 1:04:12Sean Fennessey?

  I'm so glad you're here.

• 1:04:15Sean Fennessey?

  This wasn't even planned. The other day, I was like, Convy, come on.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  I know, but, but, but seriously, though, and look, once again,

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  I mean, Joe told me how much she loved Inherent Vice. I told that to somebody in the office.

• 1:04:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  And I'm not gonna say who it was, and they threw their shit on the ground.

• 1:04:30Sean Fennessey?

  She hates it.

• 1:04:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I literally said, get out of here when talking about it. Because I fuck it, that's, that's the lowest on my list.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:04:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I'm not a stoner, like, I'm not doing any part of that. And the three PTA movies that I, well, my top two have women characters in them, you know? So it's like, it's, it's, it's not rocket science, kind of like what you're responding to. And even when we were talking about Perfidia, I'm talking about the half of the experience that, like, I can relate to with her, you know? So it's, it's not, it's, it's, it's not hard.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, oh, and, and that, and that is what it is. I really enjoyed the movie. The theater had a great time. I think it's something, there's something to be said about a movie that deals in such weighty stuff that you can still have a good time with. And that's kind of like.

• 1:05:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:05:13Sean Fennessey?

  It's a fun thinker.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a, it's a fun thinker. There are other things in the movie that like.

• 1:05:18Sean Fennessey?

  For the record, that was my takeaway from Sinners as well, which is, I was like, this movie is loaded with ideas, but it's just a fun time. It's just, the in-theater experience is, was very exciting.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  You're having fun. As far as a lot of the pushback that you're seeing, um, I'll just say it again.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  A lot of pushbacks that you're seeing from people about some of the characterizations of black women and some of the faces of black women in the movie. I think that there is something, and I just want to say this very clearly.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  We want to see black ladies taken care of.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  And when we see them not being taken care of, we're gonna have a conversation.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  Now, does that always mean that, like, that conversation won't be met with whatever, whatever? No, but we will have the conversation. And, and this film, it just, it seemed like particularly that character, the overall characterization of revolutionaries, period, something that's very important to the African American tradition, the black tradition in this country, were treated in sort of a haphazard way that some would say, doesn't, not some would say, that I say.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Doesn't do it any justice. I mean, that's the point of the movie. But with something that's gonna be this important culturally. It's just, it's a conversation that has to happen. And that's what art does. That's what art does. We have the, we like, we have the conversation.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  And so it, it, it, that's what art does.

• 1:06:54Sean Fennessey?

  So the takeaway is that this film is about how the only people who are good at revolution are white men.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Actually, no one in this movie is good at anything.

• 1:07:04Sean Fennessey?

  It's true.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Like, I mean, I mean, just, just to be honest with you. Oh, you know, you know who's good at stuff?

• 1:07:09Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, Sensei Sergio is, is very good. I mean, he saves Bob twice.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Even he drinks, he's drinking beer in front of the cops and kinda just. But, but he is.

• 1:07:19Sean Fennessey?

  But that's by design.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  But you know who's good at stuff in this movie?

• 1:07:22Sean Fennessey?

  Who's that?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  The Christmas niggas.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  They, they like.

• 1:07:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they're the big winners. They did not lose any control.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  They did not lose anything. And, and it's, once again, it just, even that.

• 1:07:37Sean Fennessey?

  Again, that's part of the point. With the perfidious character is like, there's nothing she can do to overcome this. Nothing.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  But there is.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  We have overcome.

• 1:07:49Sean Fennessey?

  We've overcome the, the way that power is organized in the United States of America?

• 1:07:53Amanda Dobbins?

  This is not CNN fan.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  We have overcome. Oh, I mean, we haven't, like, I'll just say this in the weekend movie.

• 1:08:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  We haven't overcome totally. But we, we started off in this country as, as beasts. As, as, as, as cattle. We started off in this country as people who were cut off from God, from humanity. Everything that we invented was stolen. Everything that we were was bought and sold. And we've overcome that. We haven't completely reformed and reshaped America into the vision of itself that it said it was.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  We haven't, but we certainly, through the power of our ancestors and the kinetic energy of our fight and our unity culturally, have overcome a wilderness that wanted to kill us. We have, and so we can overcome and we will, and we kind of always do. But while we watching these movies on the way to it.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  And we've overcome because of us, it was us, but we've overcome with help from other people who realized the shit was wrong. And so I'm never cynical, just so people know me, I'm never cynical about what has been achieved. I'm not gonna act like the fight is over when there's so much.

• 1:09:27Sean Fennessey?

  We have a very different point of view about this. I, the arc of black Americans, what you're describing, of course, is true. The way, what the movie is suggesting about the way that power works in the country, while it is very funny, because it's written in a very humorous way, I think is eerily true.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  You're right, yeah. But that doesn't mean, oh, hold on, like, winning and overcoming, two different things. Now, we ain't won, like, but we've actually.

• 1:09:56Sean Fennessey?

  I don't even know what winning would look like.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah, it's kind of weird, right?

• 1:09:58Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not even sure I think about the world that way.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Because we're not, because we're not in, a winning, winning for me would be very simple. It would be the power of economic, political, and the, and, and, and, and society existing with the people of America and not existing with corporate, but we don't have to get into all that.

• 1:10:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  So, I mean, that's a win that maybe, maybe that can't even happen, but as far as.

• 1:10:20Sean Fennessey?

  I just want to sit on my couch, smoke weed and watch the Battle of Algiers.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  That's what the fuck I'm talking about.

• 1:10:24Sean Fennessey?

  You know, like, that's what I want to be able to do.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  But as far as all that, over, that over, overcoming, we might not have won, but we've overcome some really things, some really incredible things. Look, this, this movie asks a lot of, like, incredible questions, but it is essentially, and, and that's the last thing I'll say, it's essentially a movie about a father and a daughter. So it's essentially what the movie is about. A father and a daughter. I think the most interesting thing about the movie is it's not about an actual father and a daughter. It's about the love that you have for someone and how that love exists, no matter what the reality of the situation is.

• 1:11:03Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. Like, it's me. It's your dad.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's, it's, it's me.

• 1:11:07Sean Fennessey?

  Best part.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  It's your dad. And like, all of the things that you're supposed to be able to draw on to save the people that you love.

• 1:11:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  That sometimes you can't, because sometimes you don't remember the password. So I praise and revere the movie. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, the movie is some fuck shit.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  It's a good movie, not the best movie that's ever been made. Okay. It doesn't hold a candle to Parasite or other movies like that. It's not even in the same fucking class. But it, it, it's also some fuck shit. Okay.

• 1:11:40Sean Fennessey?

  I think millions of people will hear this episode and feel seen by your comments, so thank you.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Millions of people listen to the Big Picture? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:48Sean Fennessey?

  Last episode-

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Y'all got it like that?

• 1:11:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, last episode had 36 million listeners.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  You lying. I was about to, I was about to say, we gotta, speaking of overcoming. Y'all gotta overcome, y'all doing good, but I didn't know what was happening.

• 1:12:00Sean Fennessey?

  No, no. Um, thank you.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  We're lucky.

• 1:12:03Sean Fennessey?

  You are the man.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Appreciate you guys. Yeah. All complaints, at Van Lathan on Twitter. I wanna, I wanna-

• 1:12:09Sean Fennessey?

  Catch him on CNN.

• 1:12:13Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks so much to Van, thanks to Amanda, thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Thanks to you for receiving this episode in good faith. We'll see you very soon on The Big Picture.

• 1:12:40Speaker 07

  This is US Bank's Cozy Cash Formations with your chief financial playmaker, Fernando Mendoza.

• 1:12:47Speaker 08

  You are worthy of financial security. Budgeting is not restriction, it's freedom. You are smart, you are capable, you are giving your money a purpose. You are learning the language of saving, of growing.

• 1:13:06Speaker 08

  Now streaming.

• 1:13:08Speaker 07

  Member FDIC Copyright 2026 US Bank.

• 1:13:11Speaker 09

  This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats and easy entertaining. Elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or New York strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics. And as the fall evenings draw in, why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lozenges and supplements? Make sure you look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market.