The ‘Sinners’ Surge. Plus: The Val Kilmer Hall of Fame!

Sean is joined by Chris Ryan to honor the late Val Kilmer by creating his Hall of Fame. Before creating the list, Chris shares his thoughts on why Ryan Coogler’s ‘Sinners’ worked so well, sort through the box office controversy, and consider what kind of award chances the film has (4:18). Then, they build the Val Kilmer Hall of Fame by selecting the 10 most essential performances of his career (34:13). Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  When you hear the word Seattle Supersonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Shawn Kemp, the Rain Man, or Gary Payton, the Glove, or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19-year-old rookie, Kevin Durant. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy, it's theft, an iconic team with an incredible fan base that packed its bags and shipped off for Oklahoma City. From Spotify and The Ringer, I'm Jordan Ritter-Kahn, and in my podcast, Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners, and fans about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the Book of Basketball feed, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:44Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support whatever you're into, like re-watching a director's entire catalog in the lead-up to their latest release. And like those friends, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. So you can check coverage off the list and spend more time debating movie rankings. Go online at statefarm.com or use the easily accessible app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by the Autograph Journey Credit Card from Wells Fargo. The Autograph Journey Credit Card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book, your favorite hotel site, your go-to airline, and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants,

• 1:29Sean Fennessey?

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• 1:55Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture conversation show about Val Kilmer. Chris Ryan is here today to join me. We are going to honor the life and work of one of our favorite actors who passed away earlier this year by building his Hall of Fame. We're also going to talk about the movie Sinners. I've been eager to get Chris Ryan's take on Sinners. Before we dig into that, we were talking about the Odyssey R.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18Sean Fennessey?

  And we've been on, we've been on an Odyssey of movie stories these last few months. You watched the trailer this morning.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  I did, man.

• 2:26Sean Fennessey?

  Thankfully, you know, your, your, your relationship with trailers is shifting every day.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32Sean Fennessey?

  Zach Craig has a new movie coming out, Weapons.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I, I think I'm also on the record, teasers are fine.

• 2:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  It's the three minute, it's the five minute final trailer. Here's all the footage that we finished before the, you know, like I've seen Thunderbolts now.

• 2:45Sean Fennessey?

  So I feel similarly. When I was in Las Vegas, they did in fact show a full trailer for Weapons. They did not show this teaser, which has been released. This is the follow-up to Barbarian, a movie that we've been looking forward to. Got bumped up to an August release date, has been described as magnolia, but horror. And I feel like we're going to end up regretting that framework as something that I keep repeating on the show. But what'd you think of this teaser trailer?

• 3:09Speaker 02

  I can't wait. I'm so excited for this movie. I am also really into the way that they are packaging and promoting it. So it's a 45 second teaser. This is a movie from Craig, obviously stars Josh Brolin and Julia Garner, among other people. And what you can divine from the trailer is that there is obviously the small town where all these children go missing, apparently voluntarily in the middle of the night. You get some sort of security camera footage of kids running away with their arms outstretched. Kind of makes me feel like there's a Slenderman piece in here. The teaser ends and you are given a URL to go to.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  I believe it's maybrookmissing.com, which takes you to a late 90s, early aughts style GeoCities news site that is documenting this story. I looked at it a little bit, not too much. So Blair Witch is in the mix. This idea of creating a extratextual like reality for this movie. Looks cool. I love hearing Brolin. That Timber just talking about, you know, those kids just ran out. They weren't abducted.

• 4:15Sean Fennessey?

  Brolin gets an incredible Brolin moment in the full trailer, which maybe you should avoid, but.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  I'm also just so psyched to see him. In like doing work with like a guy like Craigor is like a.

• 4:26Sean Fennessey?

  With a cool director in a big movie. I totally agree. That part I believe was originally meant to be Pedro Pascal. I think we are a little, we're in Pedro Pascal overexposure mode right now. So I'm kind of grateful that with The Last of Us.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Would you like to talk about it?

• 4:39Sean Fennessey?

  The Fantastic Four, The Mandalorian and Grogu coming. We've gotten a lot of Pedro. I actually like Pedro.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  My wife sent me a meme. I think it was from, or maybe it was a cartoon from The New Yorker. Who can even tell anymore? And it was somebody was getting an ultrasound of their baby. And it was Pedro Pascal. And the captions like, man, he's in everything these days.

• 4:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he's a little overexposed. And so I'm grateful that Brolin's got the look in weapons. I'm pumped for weapons. It feels very similar to the, the long legs playbook too of like, how can we create a viral marketing sensation out of a movie that, you know, on, on the surface, looks like a pure horror thriller, which of course we love on the show. Speaking of pure horror thrillers.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:22Sean Fennessey?

  So Sinners.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Should I open a CR six pack?

• 5:25Sean Fennessey?

  Do you have six? You have six takeaways?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Five and a half, I think.

• 5:29Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  So it's like.

• 5:30Sean Fennessey?

  Did you make notes about them?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  I put them in, I wanted to keep them from you. So I have like a whole other doc here.

• 5:34Sean Fennessey?

  Phenomenal. I love it. I want to be surprised. This is a new film from Ryan Coogler, which has been a box office sensation, or has it?

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:42Sean Fennessey?

  That stars Michael B. Jordan. It's been covered quite aggressively here at the Ringer Podcast Network, and frankly, in all of movie media, because this is a movie that people who love movies have been begging for, for a long time. You yourself, I'll, there's one thing I want to share with you, which may be in your notes, but I want to cite it because I thought about this hard over the weekend, knowing you were seeing it. When we did our Nosferatu pod.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:05Sean Fennessey?

  You said, "Out on Dracula, in on vampires." One of the great takes.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they.

• 6:10Sean Fennessey?

  Not one I agree with, but a great take. You also said recently, "Out on twin movies."

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, "Out on twin performances."

• 6:18Sean Fennessey?

  Twin performances.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Entirely, yeah.

• 6:20Sean Fennessey?

  But so the movie Twins, you're in on, because not twin performances.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  I mean, that's fine if they would like to document that, but like, for the deuce, for people playing their own twins. I mean, even Tom Hardy and Crays, like, it's just, it's just not, it takes me out.

• 6:35Sean Fennessey?

  The parent trap, you're out.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  No, yeah.

• 6:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 6:39Sean Fennessey?

  So this is, this is a conundrum.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  I was, I was confronted with a lot of myself in this, in this theater, you know?

• 6:44Sean Fennessey?

  Were you?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  But I came out fucking loving it and, um, and Jordan, I thought was great. I thought he was great as Smoke and Stack. It takes, it takes a little while to be like, and he does this, and he does that, like, and kind of divining the differences between the two, but the color coding for their outfits and then obviously their romantic affairs and everything about their personalities comes clear. I have a couple of things I wanted to throw at you. I listened to you and Van and Amanda, but I was gonna try and find new things to talk about or different things to talk about. Number one thing I loved about this movie, not only a great all in one day movie, but a great one crazy night movie. Taking out all of the horror of it, it's just like, "Let's open a nightclub" is an incredible, like, package to put a story in.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  And I think that, I've been thinking about this a lot because of Andor and Last of Us are stretched out across years and years and years, and films still can do compression better than any, any visual storytelling medium. It's really exciting to watch a filmmaker have to say everything he wants to say about a bunch of characters and a story and give himself this, not only the runtime of the film, but especially like this. These borders of this is how much time is going to elapse and you know it's we're only with these guys. I saw people being like, I want the smoke and stack Chicago prequel. I'm like, no, this is the most important day of their lives. We got it.

• 8:11Sean Fennessey?

  It's a great way of thinking about it and we were, we talked about that a little bit on the pod, which is just that the conveyance of information in the movie is really well handled. Cause there's a ton of exposition that has to happen about where these guys have been. What life was like 20 years ago when they lived there, why they need to open a juke joint, the history of these vampires. Like there's just so much data that he needs to fit in basically a two hour movie. And it never feels like overweening. It never feels overbearing.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think because most of that exposition is happening for, it's in the foreground and in the background, there's a nightclub scene going on. Or you're in a train station in Clarksdale in the 30s and you're like, this is magical. This is, I can't believe he's doing this. So I really enjoyed the, the tempo and the tone of it. I also really loved Kugler's pride and affection for the characters. Not getting in the way of effective storytelling about the characters.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Probably for a movie of this scope and honestly for a movie of this genre. It's either a very rote adaptation of something like, you know, like Nosferatu. Like retelling a vampire story, retelling even an Amre's story or whatever you want to say.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Or, you know, when we think about like Kugler's previous work in Black Panther and just the Marvelification of a lot of storytelling. That there's just a lot of armor around characters because they might be needed elsewhere. We might be needed again for whatever reasons. And I'm sure you could find a workaround for, for this. But I just thought like, this was old school. You love these people, but that doesn't mean that they're going to make it through the night. Uh, and it doesn't mean that their sins aren't going to come back to haunt them. So I thought that that was great and it just felt liberated from intellectual property.

• 9:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's, if we don't want to spoil this for anyone who has not yet had the chance to see the movie. It's hard to say specifically what you're saying, but this is a movie with stakes.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Both.

• 10:03Sean Fennessey?

  Two times.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:04Sean Fennessey?

  Two times.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:05Sean Fennessey?

  For sure.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:06Sean Fennessey?

  And that's really uncommon in big movies with movie stars that are genre.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I think that we probably grew up with more of an experience of like, oh, yeah, in an action movie, like, sometimes the good guy might die. Or, you know, but like, this, this really felt like a throwback to that. And I know that he's been talking a lot about, this is rooted in my experience of going to the theater in the 90s and the kinds of, kinds of movies that he would see. So it's really cool.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Just generally speaking, watching this, I was like, to make a great movie, you kind of have to think your movie is going to be great. And he makes him, makes this movie with the swagger and self-belief that it's not perfect, but it has the capacity for greatness because of how like, it's just like, hey, man, I'm undoing, I'm undoing the top button.

• 10:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  There's music everywhere. There's going to be color. There's going to be spirit. There's going to be all this stuff. There's going to be moments where I'm going to try shit that might not work for everybody. But it felt, it's a really interesting count, uh, counter to Black Bag, which is so buttoned up and is like, this is the perfect double to left. And I've, you know, to me, even better than that, it's transcendent to me. But it is like playing within itself. Whereas this is like, there are no, there are no lines to color inside of.

• 11:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think they're both, both of those movies are interesting because I think for us, those are probably the two best films of the year. They're two great working filmmakers who work in different modes. Soderbergh is so contained and self-sufficient and is like, shoots it himself, edits it himself, conceives it himself, holds the camera. He feels like a one-man factory. He's not, he has a writer, he has, you know, costume designers and location scouts, and he's working with tons of people, but it feels like he's a one-man machine. Kugler goes out of his way to say, I've got this incredible team of department heads and all the people that work for them. I've got this coterie of actors, some of whom I work with all the time, some of whom I'm working with for the first time. He has a real like family vibe.

• 12:05Sean Fennessey?

  And so because it feels more sprawling and it is, it's just more daring. I think Black Bag feels commercially daring at a time like this, but.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Black Bag has like a nine-minute dinner scene where you're just like, I can't believe this is happening. This is incredible.

• 12:18Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  You know?

• 12:18Sean Fennessey?

  But there were times in movies when stuff like that happened. So, yeah, I mean, they're sort of like, they're ill-fitting comp points, but I think they're both just made by people who were just born to make movies. And so it feels exciting watching them do their thing.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  I, uh, you guys talked about this a little bit, but I just wanted to reiterate how exciting it is to watch a truly awesome filmmaker work within a genre and use genre as basically the language of vocabulary to communicate his ideas. So this goes back to, I mean, it goes back to the beginning of storytelling, but for me personally, like I, I think I really truly started to feel this way when I was introduced to the movies of Godard and Sergio Leone, where they're taking quintessentially American genres, but looking at it in a much different way to say things about both America and film and archetypes that are just so invigorating and they re-energize the entire genre itself. So using vampire

• 13:10Speaker 02

  horror to communicate things about, um, God, I mean, like there are so many interesting ideas in this movie, but I kept thinking about like what it means to feel safe, you know, because these people are trying to create a space that is protected from the outside world for one night. And at every single place, like, you know, there's, there's this invasion happening, but that awesome vampire trope of you have to invite them in is this, it's this like temptation, you know, throughout the film, throughout the second half of the film that I thought was just fascinating to watch play out.

• 13:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I, I think this is something I probably didn't do a good enough job talking about on Friday, but the entire framework of Remick, the Irish vampire played by Jack O'Connell, presenting empathy and politess to make union with what he wants, to get what he wants, is just an incredible idea for a black filmmaker to put on screen. And the awareness of that and thinking about that specifically and the way that he's not, even though he is a demon, he is not openly demonizing Remick as much as he would demonize, say, KKK members in a movie. But it's very clear that this is a quote unquote white

• 14:27Sean Fennessey?

  ally who has like turned bad. You know what I mean? Who has drawn someone into something, who is trying to draw somebody into something so that they can become part of a hive mind that he is in charge of.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was the thing, the collective consciousness of the vampires actually really... Jumped out at me because this idea that he is trying to appeal to them by being like, "Okay, I can erase all the pain and we can live forever and we can live in true equality." But he's also like, "Your memories and your, your emotions are now mine."

• 14:57Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Like, there is still like a possessive quality to the-

• 15:00Sean Fennessey?

  Ownership. That's the whole thing.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Collectivism of, of the vampires. And just like invoking different historical moments, different ideas from history to amplify commentary about probably our contemporary moment, which I think was handled incredibly well.

• 15:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Uh, just like, not too flashy. Al Capone gets mentioned briefly, you know? Like Jim Crow gets mentioned almost as a phantom on the other side of the door, but it's not, it's not like you have like a Ken Burns moment where they're like, "Here's a picture and we're gonna tell you all about it," you know, like, um, and love the idea of, "What do you do to find transcendence?" Just, um, whether it's through music, whether it's through religion, the occult, whether it's through, um, sex, whether it's through, you know, whatever you, like, you find, like, it's all about these characters. And then the very, the grace note of the movie is about like, this awful, blood-soaked night was also the best day of multiple characters' lives.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  And they were able to find like, this emotional closure with everybody. But, you know, I think the piercing the veil sequence is gonna be one that people talk about for a long time, because it's gonna work for like, eight out of 10 people are gonna be like, "That was incredible." And then two will be like, "You lost me right there."

• 16:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I think some of the feedback we got on the conversation that we had about the show was that we weren't like, identifying what was happening, which is, I think all three of us, when we were talking about it, understood that in the preamble to the film, you know, the sort of intro, and Kugler does this often in his movies, where he kind of like, sets up the thematic wavelength of the story by giving you this kind of mythological, um, tent that you know the movie's gonna live inside of, the idea of the griot, and that there is one who can kind of transcend with their artistry, and that that person is attractive and very valuable and powerful in the culture. To me, I think when we were having that discussion, we were trying to talk about kind of like the metaphorical power of that piercing the veil scene you're talking about. Sort of like, what does it represent beyond what it means to the story? What does it mean beyond drawing Remick in?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  That's like the siren to Remick, that he's like, I need him so that I can be back with the people that I've lost over the centuries or whatever along has been.

• 17:06Sean Fennessey?

  But to me, I mean, what's incredible about that is not how it fits in the story. It's about the abstraction that is happening inside of a mainstream movie that is just so rare to be able to forcibly pull you out of the grounded logic of a movie and show you something that is philosophical, emotional, musically, historically, like all of that stuff and making, forcing you to think about how these ideas matter to the movie is really hard to do.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Well, it's, I think it's a challenge to all the fake rules of genre movies. It's like you go in there and you're like, well, you know, vampires technically are like, and then it's like, well, vampires respectfully don't exist.

• 17:48Sean Fennessey?

  They're fake.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  So I think they can do whatever they want. He's playing by those rules, but what he's asking you is if you believe in vampires, do you really not believe that music can open a portal through time for some people, even in this moment? I mean, like, do drugs once, like, it happens.

• 18:03Sean Fennessey?

  Absolutely. It's a great point. There's one other thing that is related to that that I wanted to talk about, which is...

• 18:07Speaker 02

  That was not a do drugs to our listeners, by the way.

• 18:09Sean Fennessey?

  Should they not do drugs?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  It was just like, it's a euphemism, yeah.

• 18:11Sean Fennessey?

  You don't, you don't think they should do drugs? Just want to be clear on that.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Only do drugs when Amanda's on the pod.

• 18:18Sean Fennessey?

  Um, the other thing that is related to that in terms of the genre role playing is while God and the church is a presence in this story because of Preacher Boy's father and the beginning and the ending of the film, the Christ imagery doesn't matter to the vampires. There are no crosses, there's no holy water to battle them.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  That's like pickled garlic juice that she throws on him.

• 18:41Sean Fennessey?

  That is a great, great scene when he gets splashed with that stuff. But removing...

• 18:47Sean Fennessey?

  That imagery from the vampire battle, I think actually puts it in a slightly different vampire framework, like it not being reliant on

• 18:55Speaker 02

  The church.

• 18:55Sean Fennessey?

  The Christian mythology is, is a fascinating, like a very pointed choice that I think, you know, you can read into it and say that Kugler is taking a slightly elevated kind of post Judeo-Christian idea of genre, or you can say that like, when you're in the real world, you were confronted by demons and you don't have just your faith to rely on.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Or you can have faith in lots of different things, you know, you can have faith in the things that Annie believes in, you can have faith in music, you can have faith in all sorts of stuff. And it's, I like the way that he makes the church scenes feel almost alien from the color palette and the feel of the rest of the movie, because for, for Sammy, like, that's the alien world, like the place he feels home are these smoke-filled bars playing music, and that's his church. So I really love that. And finally, you guys talked about this, but just a grown-up movie for grown-up audiences with, with like, conalingus and death and consequences, just the big three for me.

• 19:58Sean Fennessey?

  Sex, violence, power, sucking on ladies' necks.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, stuff you like.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Um, and just a big rousing round of applause when Directed by Ryan Coole came up in the

• 20:08Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:09Sean Fennessey?

  That's cool. Where'd you see it?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Just Glendale, but packed house on a Friday and, you know, like, this movie is carrying a lot of weight, probably, uh, not, not, it has nothing to do with, with like, the intention of the film, but has become this lodestar for where are we going as, as, you know, an art form and an industry with this stuff. And honestly, like, it's early days, but like, it's been, it's been really nice to just see a movie that, you know, everybody is pretty much like, it was either really fun, or I thought it was fantastic and mind-blowing, but there hasn't been the big, like, actually, it's not that good.

• 20:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Or, you know, it ends too many times, you know, and it does end too many times, and there's things wrong with it, but like,

• 20:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  I don't know, I just thought. Let's have it, let's, let's enjoy this for five days and not pocket watch so much.

• 20:59Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's hard to do, you know, it's hard to do.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  It had a good weekend.

• 21:04Sean Fennessey?

  It did have a good week. I think it's hard to have that conversation. There's an episode of The Town that went up yesterday that was sort of like, an analysis of the analysis.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I listened to that one.

• 21:13Sean Fennessey?

  That's where we're in this zone where we need to have a, an aggressive understanding of the clear profitability of a movie in a three day period. The trades were writing about the movie in a very odd way. This is a very complex issue. I don't think that there's a right answer. I think celebrating the movie is the most important thing. The reason why I persistently talk about box office on this show, even though I think the quality of a movie is what matters to me the most, is that it does often dictate what and how movies are made.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:40Sean Fennessey?

  In the future. This one's particularly notable because of the ownership reversion that's been much talked about where Coogler gets copyright of the film after 25 years. The suspicion is, is that like, there's plants by the studios to undermine the perceived success of this movie so that nobody goes asking for these things again. Or is it the studios that are rival studios that are planting this information?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Or is it people who want Mike DeLuca's job, Pam Ampti's job?

• 22:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Who are saying like, don't, don't get too ahead of yourselves. This movie actually is gonna lose money.

• 22:09Sean Fennessey?

  Or is it just, uh, some box office writers look at things in a very kind of linear theatrical profitability mind frame? And that's an old fashioned way to think about it. Or is it that we're willing to take the bait on what a production budget is and what a marketing spend is? And there's no way to verify those things publicly. The truth is, is that everything is kind of squishy in the middle. Like, there's, nobody's gonna be like, right about whether a movie is profitable or not, myself included, even though I can make bold claims about things.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like, um, you know, it was funny. It was like, I was listening to Bill and Ryan talking Sunday night and they were talking about how many open threes the Timberwolves had on Saturday. And Ryan was kind of going through, well, it was this, but if you, if you take out the last two, which were garbage time, and then you, I go back and watch them all, it's like this, and then you kind of like, the number keeps shrinking.

• 22:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  I think you could do that same kind of like, and the longer Ryan talked, I was like, he's right. Cause I was at the game. I was like, he's right, he's right, he's right. But I was also like, you can feel the point losing its headline grabbing ability.

• 23:08Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Because it's now a much more nuanced conversation.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Sinners, whether or not it's profitable or not, it just doesn't really matter to the whether we get up on Wednesday or not, but there are so many different ways that this movie is going to be spun out over the next couple of years, whether it's getting licensed to Netflix, its impact on Macs when it hits Macs, whatever VOD it makes, like people going to see it three times, but like that not necessarily getting reported in a month when we're distracted by five other things.

• 23:40Sean Fennessey?

  There are so many more output opportunities people don't think about. It's like movies are licensed to airlines, movies are licensed to hotel chains, like the revenue streams for movies now are coming in so many different directions and a movie like this, which basically has as strong a word of mouth as you can possibly have for a movie that is not known IP, is it is, it is going to be a flowing river of revenue over the next 10, 20, 30 years.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  And so. Well, up to 25 years.

• 24:08Sean Fennessey?

  Well, then that revenue will pour directly into Ryan Coogler, which I think is wonderful.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  It's also funny that people are like hand wringing about Ryan Coogler getting the rights back. It's like, do we really think there's going to be a Warner Brothers discovery in 25 years?

• 24:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, the thing that is interesting to me about that specifically is this has been attempted in various ways throughout the history of Hollywood. So there's been a lot of comparisons to what Quentin Tarantino did once upon a time in Hollywood. And people like a lot of comparisons of like literal headlines against the success of those movies. To me, they're like, those are, that's a real apples and oranges situation. Quentin Tarantino, hugely established filmmaker, literally a genius at making movies, also working in a movie with Leo and Brad Pitt. So let's not compare these two movies. It's pointless. Secondarily, Coogler seeking ownership of the film, but staying inside the studio system to make it is interesting and different. Like it's different than United Artists and actors banding together to build their own studio. It's different than Francis Ford Coppola

• 25:05Sean Fennessey?

  in Zoetrope, using the studio system to then like build up his wealth and springboard into his own system. It's not that different. It's a little different, but not that different from George Lucas retaining ownership of Star Wars or Star Wars merchandising or Lucas film. That's the one to me that I feel like is a little bit. Misunderstood, misrepresented as a comp point? Yeah, because that is something that if you have the power to create characters that people love, and I think, don't get me wrong, Sinners is not going to be Star Wars. But if you have fallen in love with Smoke or Stack or Mary or Preacher Boy,

• 25:45Sean Fennessey?

  and you own that, you can continue to iterate on that forever.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:50Sean Fennessey?

  Or until you decide to sell it back to Disney or Warner Brothers or whomever. So I think one of the reasons why you get like that vulture piece that's like, could this ruin the studio system as we know it, which has been working so damn well for the last 10 years? What would we do without the studio system? The challenge is, is that Kugler's doing something really interesting, which is he's having it both ways. He is using the tools of the studio system, deal making and financing for the movie. He's using the relationship with exhibitors. He's using the marketing and publicity teams that are getting the movie in front of people. But at the end of the day, he will get to own it long term. To me, like,

• 26:26Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, I don't want to break the whole movie going apparatus, but I, I do actually think that this could and probably should continue to happen in different ways. There are different permutations of this and like movies are defined by this in some ways. So I, I don't, whatever anxiety like people who work in the business have, I'm like, you're going to be dead before it changes. Don't worry about that.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Attitude that I feel like,

• 26:50Speaker 02

  it's, it's funny. It's like when a studio decides actually we're not going to put your movie into theaters. There's like a much more mild uproar about them going back on their word. Or cutting the legs out from a title by like taking it out of theaters 12 days later and putting it on streaming or.

• 27:10Sean Fennessey?

  They control the ways and means.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Just, I don't give a shit, but like flushing Batgirl down the toilet after it was made.

• 27:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  There's like, oh, you guys should have done that. But this somehow has been like a three week news cycle of like, the existential threat Sinners, a not profitable film poses to Warner Brothers that you guys spend all your time, and I don't mean that, I just mean like the you guys of the world being like. We spend all of our time second guessing a Monday morning quarterbacking Warner Brothers. Someone makes like a different kind of deal with them and it's like, what, what's gonna happen?

• 27:44Sean Fennessey?

  Oh my, I know.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, they'll be fine or they won't.

• 27:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, there's two, there's two related strands to that as well. One of which is, I believe this data point is right, which is that one studio has two films grossing over $40 million in the same weekend for the first time since 2009, when Avatar, and your favorite movie of that year, Alvin and the Chipmunks, the squeak.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  No, that was my Disney weekend and I loved it.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  I actually personally wrote a check to Rupert Murdoch, thanking him.

• 28:12Sean Fennessey?

  To all of Walt Disney's relatives.

• 28:16Sean Fennessey?

  I think the fact that that is a truce statement is amazing and all of the hand wringing that myself and many others were doing about the future of Warner Brothers. And now we're confronted by, basically, again, once again, the thing I said on the pod, I think is true. When the Minecraft movie came out, I was like, this is amazing that this movie's doing well. So that we can get more one battle after another's. Or Sinners, like, there's meant to be this correlative relationship between big movies for everybody that make kids happy, that make parents happy, that are four quadrant. Those things should always exist. There's nothing wrong with that, whether you like it or not, so that you can take a chance on an unusual Ryan Coogler original film.

• 28:58Sean Fennessey?

  So the fact that they're both working is cause for celebration, not undermining.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  I also, I have not and will not see Minecraft if I can help myself.

• 29:07Sean Fennessey?

  What if you love it, though?

• 29:08Speaker 02

  But.

• 29:08Sean Fennessey?

  Like, seriously, what if you love it?

• 29:10Speaker 02

  First of all, Jack Black was at that Lakers game on Saturday and got like a fucking larger applause than, than like Rui Hachimura, for sure.

• 29:21Sean Fennessey?

  So, we're doing 35 over 35 movie stars next month.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  He. Top five.

• 29:27Sean Fennessey?

  He is making an incredibly strong bid right now. I did not really fully understand his power until I saw the success of this movie.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Like, is he more successful than Brad Pitt?

• 29:38Sean Fennessey?

  There's a strong case for it, like a very strong case. Anyway, continue.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Um, the thing that's cool about both Minecraft and Sinners being in the theater right now is that even though Minecraft is an adaptation of a piece of video game IP, it hadn't been made before.

• 29:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  And Sinners is an original story. I think people can be like, you know what? Phoebe Waller-Bridge, just like leave Tomb Raider in the past. Make something new. I wa- I, I just hope that this is a signal that we are like breaking free of the like, oh, we have this stuff in our libraries. So let's see if anybody has an original take on X piece of shit. Even if it's like Michael Bay making OutRun with Sydney Sweeney, that to me feels like 400 blows compared to like what we've had in the last five years.

• 30:20Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I agree with you. I've been banging this drum since the Barbenheimer Super Mario Brothers year. Michael Bay is making-

• 30:26Speaker 02

  OutRun, the video game OutRun?

• 30:28Sean Fennessey?

  With Sydney Sweeney?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Apparently.

• 30:29Sean Fennessey?

  Michael Bay and Sydney Sweeney are making a movie together?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Do you understand how hot she's gonna look in that movie?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  We, like, just between you, me, and the cameras going out to the internet.

• 30:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Well, what about her performance? Like, what kind of a performance will she give?

• 30:43Speaker 02

  I think she's gonna be like, it's gonna be like Sophie's Choice. Like, she's definitely getting nominated for an Oscar in her performance in OutRun, and I'm really happy for her.

• 30:51Sean Fennessey?

  Should I start playing OutRun?

• 30:53Speaker 02

  You ever played OutRun?

• 30:54Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  The car game?

• 30:55Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Oh, awesome. Kind of like Spy Hunter a little bit.

• 30:58Sean Fennessey?

  It's a car racing movie?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:00Sean Fennessey?

  Sydney Sweeney is gonna be a race car driver?

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Look, gotta give the people what they want.

• 31:05Sean Fennessey?

  I guess so.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  This is populism.

• 31:07Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I'm very happy with the success of Sinners. I don't know if it's gonna make $250 million at the box office. It kinda doesn't matter. You know, it's really, it's really, it's not a big deal. The movie's great. Um, I, there has not been a lot of awards conversation about it because I think everyone's a little afraid to be like, oh, vampire movie? It's really bloody. There's a lot of sex in it.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  I, it feels like kind of a layup.

• 31:31Sean Fennessey?

  I feel like-

• 31:31Speaker 02

  June 2, Best Picture.

• 31:32Sean Fennessey?

  So that's what I wanted to ask you. Is this possibly, because it's an April release, the everything everywhere all at once of this year? Or more likely, the Dune Part 2, which is to say, big studio movie, it's genre, you guys liked it.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Avatar is this year?

• 31:47Sean Fennessey?

  Avatar is, yes, December. I, I have, I have no doubts about Avatar 3. I wonder, Academy-wise, if it will be as praised as 2 was because it just happened a few years ago. But like, okay, you could make the case for-

• 32:03Sean Fennessey?

  In a world post Get Out, post The Substance, where movies like that get nominated for major awards and win major awards, you could strongly make the case for picture, director, original screenplay, actor, cinematography, best casting, which will be a new category, starting next year, starting 2026, costumes, hair and makeup, production design, original score, and original song.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:26Sean Fennessey?

  Like, those are all on the table.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  It could be a 10-nom movie.

• 32:28Sean Fennessey?

  It really, really could be. I don't-

• 32:31Speaker 02

  They definitely also could re-release this at Christmas, like, or Halloween, and scare the shit out of yourself.

• 32:36Sean Fennessey?

  Halloween is a great idea. That's a really, really great idea. I-

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Only in IMAX for two weeks, centers, like, that's, that's, that's an easy-

• 32:45Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I agree, and I think it would work. And Kugler has made films that have been nominated for Best Picture. I mean, he, Black Panther was nominated for Best Picture. Like, this is not out of the question. And I just haven't seen much conversation about it. Maybe this is the place where you should be having the conversation, on this particular podcast, but, um-

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Podcast about movies that are worth it.

• 33:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and I, I don't know that, I'm not saying, like, this has to be nominated for Best Picture, because who knows what the year will hold? But it's pretty clearly the most exciting movie thing that has happened in almost four months.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll, I'll be, if, I think it's always great,

• 33:20Speaker 02

  the first half of the year can be a little bit ups and downs, because you get Dumpuary, which is now March, and, you know, all these things. I, when you get to May and June, and you get a movie like this, and you get a movie like Black Bag, and you're like, it's gonna be pretty exciting if there's, like, 10 movies better than that.

• 33:36Sean Fennessey?

  Right, right. And that is how I think about it, too. I'm constantly like, okay, where does this stack up?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Because I always think about that with TV. Like, you know, I'll see Whipli or Industry, and I'll be like, man, if TV is better than that this year, I'm, my job is gonna be easy.

• 33:49Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not sure if a lot of stuff's gonna get ahead of centers. And just in terms of, like, the pure, especially the second time I saw it, I was like, this is really euphoric at times. Like, there are aspects of this that are getting right to the top of how excited I get about movies. So, like, the, um- The moment I keep coming back to is just a very simple one, but the movie flashes back on it because it knows how powerful it is, which is just Stack is driving with Just Preacher Boy and he tells him that he starts playing guitar.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  And his face when he starts playing.

• 34:18Sean Fennessey?

  His reaction and we're gonna make some money now and just the timbre of Miles Caton's voice in that scene where I was like, this is fucking, this makes me feel so excited.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  That's how I felt when Berlin is performing and is doing the stomping.

• 34:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  And it's cutting around to all the different things that are happening in that point in the film, but they're using the rhythm of her performance as like the editing tempo.

• 34:41Sean Fennessey?

  Intercutting, yes, with a dude getting stomped out in the other room. It's such a smart move. That's the song I would probably put up, Pale Pale Moon, which is written by Brittany Howard from Alabama Shakes.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 34:50Sean Fennessey?

  And she sings a version of it on the soundtrack. You could see, I could see that being performed at the Academy Awards.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:56Sean Fennessey?

  You know? Okay. Any other Sinner's thoughts? Thank you for going down the slide with me once more.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  No, I saw your syllabus and I agreed.

• 35:04Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:06Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Also, just awesome to have a big Hollywood blockbuster that's making people think about tons of other movies.

• 35:57Sean Fennessey?

  This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO?

• 36:43Sean Fennessey?

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• 37:10Sean Fennessey?

  Let's, let's make a transition to Val Kilmer.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:14Sean Fennessey?

  So you mentioned this idea of the imperfect with the ecstatic with sinners. And I would, I would say that Val had that as an actor. A kind of fascinatingly erratic rise, push through the mainstream, top of the poster, star system, guy who runs Hollywood for a period of time.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 37:36Sean Fennessey?

  Has a fairly precipitous slide down in terms of his stature. But the things that he did when he was at the top are

• 37:45Speaker 02

  As good as it gets.

• 37:46Sean Fennessey?

  Forever performances are like things that you just, you cannot be more excited to be watching an actor doing his thing. What is your, what is your, what is your lasting memory of him as a performer?

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Well, uh, there, there's a Paul Newman line in Color of Money, uh, where he calls Tom Cruise an incredible flake. He calls his character that. I think about that for Kilmer, just an incredible flake. And what I mean by that is has all the tools of a quintessential movie star. The looks, the presence, the charisma, humor, romance, action, can do everything. And it's just a fucking weirdo.

• 38:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  And it's just a real weirdo. And in some ways, like, we can talk about him for 30 minutes here. I would really recommend people, if they can find any films that he has done director's commentary on. He is one of the most engaging, hilarious people to listen, talk about films that he's been in. Kind of like Affleck, just has like a great sense of humor about making movies, but also his own performance. He is not too precious about them. You know, obviously, like, an incredibly tumultuous career.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  But magnetic. When he is on screen, no matter who he is sharing the screen with, even if it's Pacino or De Niro, you're like, what is he doing? I'm always watching Val Kilmer. And so, yeah, really tragic loss.

• 39:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he passed away at 65. He was diagnosed with cancer about 10 years ago. Always some controversy in some of these conversations because he was a Christian scientist and his relationship to treatment and medicine. There's an absolutely wonderful piece about him that our friend Chuck Klosterman wrote 20 years ago.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:27Sean Fennessey?

  For Esquire, when he went out and visited him at his ranch and spent some time with him. And I think that weirdness Chuck got a real handle on, that sense of humor.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:37Sean Fennessey?

  That sense of mythologizing that he was very good at, the sort of the casual name dropping that he's doing with people like Bob Dylan and kind of associating himself.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:46Sean Fennessey?

  With these legendary figures, but also being self-deprecating at the same time. This wonderful portrayal of his relationship to his kids. Like, it's a very affecting, but also just like very humorous and fun piece. If people have not read that, I highly recommend they check it out.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  I did the audio when that was collected. I did the Val Kilmer's voice for the audiobook.

• 40:03Sean Fennessey?

  Did you? I didn't know that.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  And when Chuck did that piece, he got Val Kilmer to leave me a voicemail message. But it's like, lost to a...

• 40:11Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, no way. I've never heard that.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Flip phone back in the 2000s.

• 40:13Sean Fennessey?

  What did Val say?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  He was like, it was basically... I think he said like, is this Chris Ryan, Welcome to the West? It was something like really weird, but it was really cool.

• 40:24Sean Fennessey?

  That's so special. I love that.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  But it's like, you don't know when that, when you're like, I have this dumb phone that I have like a T-Mobile plan. How do I save this?

• 40:34Sean Fennessey?

  That is amazing. He, I think, you know, part of it, I'm sure is the fact that for us specifically, generationally,

• 40:43Sean Fennessey?

  you know, he's, he's kind of in the firmament very quickly in terms of movies because in the early part of his career, he makes these like very silly movies that are very fun when you're a kid. And then he kind of transitions into this icon of cool as Doc Holliday, Jim Morrison, Chris Scherless, like he takes on a handful of parts where you're just like, God damn it. Has anybody been better at commanding the screen? And yet, as an actor, no Oscar nominations, no Golden Globe nominations, no major nominations of any kind in his entire career.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Do you think that's because he's usually the best thing in a movie that is like pretty genre-y? Or is it more about like his kind of relationship to the town and complicated?

• 41:24Sean Fennessey?

  I'm sure it's a combination of both. I think he was probably best known for stuff that we would describe as genre. I think he, the reputational stuff cuts both ways. Because for as many people as you say, this was the most incorrigible, difficult, complicated and annoying person I've ever worked with. If you want to read about it, look at what John Frankenheimer had to say about him publicly about working with him on the island of Doctor Moreau. It's extremely unkind. On the other hand, if you ask Drew Barrymore or Kurt Russell what it's like to work with him, they have nothing but praise. If you ask Mira Sorvino, they say he was an angel. So I think he was a complicated guy. And I think on some productions, he was, he was tough to work with and on others, he was great. I get the impression he was better to actors than to directors.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 42:07Sean Fennessey?

  David Thewlis, you know, spoke after he passed away about his experience working with Val on Doctor Moreau.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Doctor Moreau, it's like, that's an all time tough production. Brando and like four directors and everything that happened, so.

• 42:21Sean Fennessey?

  There's a remarkable documentary about that movie called Lost Soul that is mostly told through the lens of Richard Stanley, the original director of that movie that I highly recommend that people check out. But. I was trying to think about who are the actors that are not recognized in their time, you know, from roughly the last 50 years. There are people like Edward G. Robinson and Donald Sutherland, who were never nominated, who you're like, that's insane. Like, they're just in like 12 all-time classics. But, and then there's also like your amazing character actors, like your Alan Rickman, your Steve Buscemi, your John Turturro. Like, you'd think they would have one Oscar nomination, but they don't. To me, he reminds me the most of Bruce Willis and Richard Gere. Where you're like, these were locked and loaded movie stars.

• 43:03Sean Fennessey?

  Underrated great actors, but if you talk to other actors, they would be like, this guy had it. And for whatever reason, because of whatever movies they were in, whatever associations they had, they never got that recognition. And now we look back on Val's career and I'm like, to not get nominated for Tombstone is just weird.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  It's kind of weird to not get nominated for The Doors. I mean,

• 43:20Sean Fennessey?

  Fully agree.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  You know, Tombstone is an interesting one, just because I think that movie became, I remember that film coming out, was that in the aftermath of Wyatt Earp or before Wyatt Earp? But there was these competing Wyatt Earp films.

• 43:36Sean Fennessey?

  They were being made about the same time.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  And Wyatt Earp is a huge Costner film that Lawrence Kasdan was making. It was sort of supposed to be this American epic. And Tombstone was kind of like the B-movie shoot-'em-up. At least that's the way it was presented.

• 43:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  And Dennis Quaid's really good as Doc Holliday in Wyatt Earp. But Val Kilmer is on like a completely, speaking of sinners, he's piercing the veil as Doc Holliday, man. Like, he's talking to everybody and that's my favorite performance of his. But I think it's been now properly rated. I think it's now like, people have gone back and been like, I'm your Huckleberry. And this, this way of being this consumptive, charming cad of a killer is, he's, he nailed it.

• 44:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and it has become kind of a cliche. It is like, has been regurgitated in style in the past. I think, Maybe his beauty worked against him a little bit in this respect too.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 44:31Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's something that works against gear. And the gear doesn't get recognized in the same way. But he was chameleon-ic. I mean, he really would. He would gain weight. He would grow his hair out. He would put on stupid beards. He would change his voice.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:43Sean Fennessey?

  And sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, you know? He tries out an Irish accent in Ghost in the Darkness that is... It does not work, you know? Like, he took chances that didn't work. But a fascinating career. So you want to go through the films?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Sure, man. Uh, I have a tremendous amount of affection for Real Genius, still to this day.

• 45:01Sean Fennessey?

  I... Well, Top Secret comes first.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, you want to go through, like...

• 45:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, let's go through it.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, chronologically, sure.

• 45:06Sean Fennessey?

  Here's the problem. I think we can go from 1984 through 2005, and I've seen just about every movie.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Most of these. I know.

• 45:15Sean Fennessey?

  I would say maybe one or two I'm missing.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  And then the second half up to Maverick is...

• 45:20Sean Fennessey?

  I haven't seen almost every movie he's made since 2005.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's mostly Redbox and independent stuff.

• 45:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. So I don't... We don't need to belabor the discussion of every movie made in the final 30 years. But I think a little bit of time for these, these, um, early ones is important. Top Secret, part of the Zucker Abrams trilogy of greatness with, alongside Airplane and the Naked Gun, recently reissued on 4K, along with Top Secret. Uh, one of my wife Eileen's favorite movies of all time, a kind of rock and roll spy movie spoof that I'm gonna yellow in this conversation, because I think it's really important. And I think always the original film is really meaningful, and we'll come back to it.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:56Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, Real Genius is, uh, green.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Real Genius is green, and this is, oh, if this guy wanted to be, he could have been Bill Murray.

• 46:05Sean Fennessey?

  Or, like, Tom Cruise?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I just meant for his comic timing and the way he would, like, walk into a dorm room and make six jokes that were all, like, asides. And you'd be like, now I'm gonna say that for the rest of the 80s.

• 46:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I just... It's a moral imperative sequence when he's talking to the lead. Um, which is so memorable to me, and it's just like, this movie's a total cable classic. He's very convincing.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:30Sean Fennessey?

  And it's interesting to think of him operating at the same time of this, about that class of 80s actors like Cruise. All, you know, he was supposed to be in The Outsiders, and he passed to do a play quite famously.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  What part in The Outsiders?

• 46:40Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know who he was going to be, but he was, at the time, doing a play with Kevin Bacon and Sean Penn.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 46:45Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and so neither of them are in that movie. And... He, he was in that cohort of guys.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:53Sean Fennessey?

  He was in that Cruz, Penn, Michael J. Fox, Kevin Bacon.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Matt Dillon.

• 46:57Sean Fennessey?

  Dillon, Patrick Swayze, that whole crew of people. He was a true contemporary of, um, 1986.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Are you a real genius or a weird science guy?

• 47:06Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, real genius by a mile. Um, weird science, I think, is, I'll tell you something crazy. I actually prefer the TV show Weird Science, which aired on the USA Network and I quite enjoyed. Just gonna put that out there.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Is Kelly LeBrack's not in that one?

• 47:18Sean Fennessey?

  No, but Vanessa Angel is in the TV series. So I'll leave that with you. Um, 1986 Top Gun.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. What can you say?

• 47:26Sean Fennessey?

  Iceman.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:27Sean Fennessey?

  Going in.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Uh, and if you take it out of the context of what happens to Tom Cruise in this movie, like, and what happens to him going forward and how this catapults him to an almost singular contemporary level of stardom, he kinda goes toe to toe with him.

• 47:42Sean Fennessey?

  He does.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Until they kinda, you know, hamstring him in the last act. But he's, he's like not giving an inch in the locker room scenes and like what, you know, in the volleyball scenes and stuff. He's like, it's my movie.

• 47:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, there was a very touching moment at CinemaCon when Tom Cruise came out and was like, let's have a moment of silence for Val and everything he gave us. And it's interesting to think of those guys as being neck and neck for a long time.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:08Sean Fennessey?

  In terms of stardom and then, you know, things coming all the way back around with Maverick. 1988 Willow, he played Mad Martigan. Willow, a movie that was super important to me. I saw it in a movie theater when I was six years old. This is Ron Howard's, uh, absurd fantasy movie.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, nice, uh, partner movie with Princess Bride.

• 48:24Sean Fennessey?

  Very much. Um, I'm gonna, what are your thoughts on Willow?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Let's yellow it.

• 48:30Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Cause I think we're gonna get through a bunch of, I, I think the thing that's cool about Willow is this is another one of his, like, he is the movie star, but the whole point of Mad Martigan is that he's like this goofball.

• 48:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Like trapped inside of King Arthur's body.

• 48:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, there's a little Han Solo.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:46Sean Fennessey?

  In the character.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:48Sean Fennessey?

  Um, a little bit of the like, who me, but also I'm the man. Um.

• 48:53Sean Fennessey?

  I really love it. As I was watching it again last night, I was like, I see what critics meant when they weren't kind to this movie when it came out. But when I saw it as a kid, it was a classic. Like, this is my shit. Kill Me Again.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  This is him and Joanne.

• 49:07Sean Fennessey?

  Joanne Wylie. This is where he met Joanne Wylie on Willow. They were opposite each other.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:14Sean Fennessey?

  And they fell in love, and then they made another movie together called Kill Me Again. I had never seen this movie until this week. John Dahl.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Like a comedy thriller?

• 49:21Sean Fennessey?

  Not very funny.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:23Sean Fennessey?

  An extremely violent, depraved neo-noir about a dame who comes into a guy's office and says, hey, I'm on the run from my boyfriend who I stole money from, and I want you to kill me, or at least make it seem as though I've been killed, so that he leaves me alone.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  The old Fletch.

• 49:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Thing, yeah.

• 49:43Sean Fennessey?

  And John Dahl is on a run here of this movie, Red Rock West, The Last Seduction, and Rounders. That is unfuckable. This is my least favorite of those four films.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:56Sean Fennessey?

  Still pretty good.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I remember this as a trailer at the beginning of a lot of VHS movies, but I don't remember seeing this. I think because of the trailer, I thought it was kind of supposed to be a little daffier.

• 50:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. It presages Reservoir Dogs in terms of films where Michael Madsen tortures a guy's face while tied up.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Does he do that in this movie?

• 50:15Sean Fennessey?

  He does that in this movie. He actually does it to John Grease of The White Lotus fame. Good movie. I just wrote down, this is not going in, but I didn't realize that Gore Vidal wrote a version of the Billy the Kid story, which was produced for TNT, a four-hour movie where Val Kilmer plays Billy the Kid in 1989.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  TNT and TBS actually reliably hammered out some, like, pretty decent westerns in the 80s.

• 50:40Sean Fennessey?

  They did Broken Trail very notably, right?

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Some Louis Lamour stuff.

• 50:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:44Sean Fennessey?

  1981, The Doors. Kind of has to go in.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:48Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, he literally.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Becomes Jim Morrison.

• 50:50Sean Fennessey?

  Becomes Jim Morrison.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:51Sean Fennessey?

  Members of the band are like, that's Jim Morrison.

• 50:56Sean Fennessey?

  I think Robbie Krieger was like, that sounds better than Jim Morrison when he would listen to the recordings.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  An absolutely ridiculous but amazing movie, but a performance for the ages.

• 51:03Sean Fennessey?

  I think a wildly flawed movie, but when Val is locked in, especially during the band performance scenes, it's quite eerie.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  There's also like, I don't know if I actually thought this before he did it, but you know, when somebody gets cast in a iconic, historically significant role like this, and you're like, oh yeah, nobody else could have ever played this. That's how I feel about Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison, like how I kind of feel about Daniel Day-Lewis as Lincoln, where I'm like, oh, Lincoln's a rap now. Like, don't try and do Lincoln again.

• 51:32Sean Fennessey?

  Has there been a Lincoln since Lincoln?

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, in Manhunt, the Apple TV series.

• 51:38Sean Fennessey?

  It's a TV show.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Hamish Linklater plays him.

• 51:39Sean Fennessey?

  Hamish Linklater?

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:41Sean Fennessey?

  He's a pretty good Lincoln casting, I think. He's a string bean. He's quite tall, brown hair. How is his Now Now Now?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Uh, he didn't do Now Now Now.

• 51:48Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:49Sean Fennessey?

  Alright, that's too bad. Um, Thunderheart.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I actually kind of dig this movie.

• 51:54Sean Fennessey?

  So, it's very good. Uh, Michael Apted.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:58Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of a, kind of a grungy FBI western. I'm not sure what the source of it is. It's about a, um, part Sioux FBI agent who goes to investigate the murder of a man on a reservation. And there is a conflict, um, between the local people of the town and the reservation. And there's a kind of Chinatown-esque scheme going on behind the scenes. Sam Shepard plays, uh, Val Kilmer's partner, Val is the lead FBI agent.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Shepard's really good in this.

• 52:26Sean Fennessey?

  Phenomenal in this film, as is Graham Greene. This is one of the best Graham Greene performances. The character that Graham Greene plays, I think, appears in other novels and there was like a big desire for like.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  A Thunderheart Expanded Universe?

• 52:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, exactly. He plays like, he plays the reservation cop and he's so cool and so smart in this movie. It's a very good film. Michael Apted didn't make a lot of movies like this. You know, best known for like the 7-Up documentaries?

• 52:48Speaker 02

  But he had made a documentary about, about, uh, Leonard Peltier, right?

• 52:52Sean Fennessey?

  He did, yes, about that, that murder on the reservation some years ago. I think, I think the doc came out like a year before Thunderheart 2. So he was the Uglala Nation, like, and he's kind of proximate to all of that at the time of this movie. Really.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Deacon shot it.

• 53:05Sean Fennessey?

  Diddy.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that explains why it looks so fucking good. Um, I like it. I'll yellow it. I don't think it's going in. Val is good.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:13Sean Fennessey?

  It's, it's, it's an encouraging performance for him and...

• 53:18Speaker 02

  This is kinda where you're like, okay, like you're gonna be the lead of like, really good movies for like, and then, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I think he's probably looking at this as a step down from The Doors in terms of how it's featuring him or how it's elevating or platforming him, but...

• 53:35Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it, it has something in common with The Doors, which is that he has a kind of like, a Native American, um, like Fantasia moment, moment in consecutive films, which is very unusual. But I think the thing it does is it like cements him as guy with a gun.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:49Sean Fennessey?

  Like, he can do guy with a gun and a leading man on the poster. The real McCoy, I'll tell you what, I've never seen it.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  Me neither.

• 53:55Sean Fennessey?

  This sounds on paper like it would be good. Uh, Russell Mulcahy of Highlander fame directing a bank robbing dramedy, starring Kim Basinger as a recently paroled bank robber. And I think that Val Kilmer plays his, uh, her parole officer.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 54:13Sean Fennessey?

  Terrence Stamp plays her former employer who wants her to do one last job. And there's some friction in the planning. The movie like is, was kinda...

• 54:22Speaker 02

  He should've just been an actor in the 50s, because these are all 1950s movies.

• 54:26Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he does have a classical approach and a classical look, for sure. Um, real McCoy's not going in. 1983 Tombstone, we've already talked about it, that's green. This is a great, great film.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  How much screen time does he have in Tombstone?

• 54:38Sean Fennessey?

  Not a lot.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:39Sean Fennessey?

  Not a lot. Six scenes.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  There was one recent time where I rewatched it and I was like, oh my god, man, I think, uh, I think he's only on screen for like five scenes, you know, like...

• 54:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think there's some incredibly memorable ones, there's some unforgettable ones. Obviously, the final confrontation with Johnny Ringo is some of the best acting you'll ever see in your life. But I'm more partial to the, uh, gun flipping showdown.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, red brick fucking showpan.

• 55:05Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, okay, true romance, small but crucial role as Elvis Presley.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Unseen, you don't see his face.

• 55:12Sean Fennessey?

  You don't see his face. You do hear his voice. He inspires Clarence in a moment in which Clarence, played by Christian Slater, needs inspiration.

• 55:22Sean Fennessey?

  It would be odd to put a film like this in the Hall of Fame. And yet, it may be, maybe it's the second best movie he ever appeared in.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean.

• 55:32Sean Fennessey?

  You know, it's like, it's Heat, and then, is it this movie?

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's top four, probably, at least.

• 55:40Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it's gonna go in, given the work that we have to do, but I'd like to yellow it.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Okay, Batman Forever?

• 55:47Sean Fennessey?

  I think there is a case. Now, I'm not a big Batman Forever fan. I remember being disappointed in theaters and getting that first feeling of like, am I too old for this movie? And I was 13 when I saw it.

• 55:59Sean Fennessey?

  He's not a bad Batman. And it is, it is in the first line of his obituary.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Yes, it literally is.

• 56:07Sean Fennessey?

  He played Batman.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  And Jim Morrison.

• 56:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, there's, there's seven guys who've played Batman in a movie. And he's on that shortlist. So...

• 56:18Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know, what do you think?

• 56:23Sean Fennessey?

  This is his Hall of Fame, remember, not his Hall of Fame of great performances.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  I think you have to put it in there.

• 56:27Sean Fennessey?

  I think so, too.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  I think, I mean, I don't even know if, I think, I'm sure listeners are like, why are you guys even deliberating this?

• 56:33Sean Fennessey?

  I agree, let's make it green, I agree.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  I think it would be kind of interesting to go back, maybe next time Batman is in a movie. Or we can actually do it for Superman, but you basically go back through and all the people who have played Batman and Superman over their careers and what it did to their careers for Better Force.

• 56:51Sean Fennessey?

  Batman Effect.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Thinking about this with Superman just coming up and, you know, Cornsweat's like, a really cool actor, but like, this is a lot very early to be happening.

• 57:01Sean Fennessey?

  It's a big jump.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:02Sean Fennessey?

  There, you're more likely to cast an unknown into Superman rather than Batman.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Batman needs to be.

• 57:08Sean Fennessey?

  Batman, you need some power, but also you have the mask.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:11Sean Fennessey?

  Superman, it's his face. It's an ironic aspect of it. That usually you'd want a notable person in a Superman role because you see his face. But it's kind of like how the NFL is dominant, you know? They got helmets on. 1995 Heat, have you seen Heat?

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Can I just say when we saw it at Coolidge?

• 57:27Speaker 02

  A, one of the greatest movies ever made, obviously. And awesome to watch it with a full theater.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  He's just vibrating on the screen like he is in some ways taking the film the most seriously of anyone in the movie and he's acting with Pacino and De Niro who are legendarily or monkish kind of dedication to their performances.

• 57:48Sean Fennessey?

  Chris seems possessed.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:49Sean Fennessey?

  He seems possessed in the film.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  I think possibly that's because it's a largely, he doesn't have a lot of dialogue. And so, so much of Neil and Vincent's dialogue has now become like memes for me. But Chris's face when Charlene gives him the no go sign at the end and like him being like, I just got shot again in his face and getting in the car and driving off.

• 58:13Sean Fennessey?

  Where can I get some bread?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Hotly debated topic online.

• 58:19Sean Fennessey?

  At three o'clock in the morning.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Um, and it's sad because it's like, there's another version of this world where like he had gotten to participate in Heat Two if it had gotten off the ground. I mean, obviously, um, his character is a huge part of Heat Two.

• 58:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  So I don't know if he would have, obviously like Val Kilmer at the end of his life would not have been able to do that. Val Kilmer in 2002 probably would have been able to do that if, if he had wanted to make that.

• 58:47Sean Fennessey?

  He definitely could have.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  But if, if people want to like continue with that character, it's the best part of Heat Two is the Chris Herro stuff.

• 58:55Sean Fennessey?

  Heat is the, the deepest and darkest green that we've ever had.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:59Sean Fennessey?

  We are in the forest of green for Heat. The Island of Doctor Moreau. This is a bad movie. It's a movie that you can very clearly tell has been hacked up and reconstituted and reshoot. Marlon Brando is doing deeply bizarre things in the film. Val Kilmer's performance, you know, he got word that he was being served divorce papers by Joanne Wylie during the making of this movie and it reportedly spun him out. And his performance is not bad. It's quite strange.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Should I serve you with divorce papers from Eileen when we're doing one battle after another and see if it spins you out?

• 59:33Sean Fennessey?

  I'm really working very hard to avoid that.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Comes your Doctor Moreau. We have to reshoot the pod five times.

• 59:40Sean Fennessey?

  My entire life is just looking forward to one battle after another and not getting divorced.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  And you all of a sudden have an Irish accent.

• 59:49Sean Fennessey?

  Alan Dr. Moreau, the performance is not bad and also he dies halfway through it. It's just like the movie is considered a legendary disaster, so it's red.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not gonna vote Dr. Moreau. I mean, it's fine to have this as, and this is probably, if you look at the films that come after it,

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  he basically needs to wait for Shane Black and Oliver Stone to save his career.

• 1:00:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, he's officially on the backside now. The Ghost in the Darkness is the next movie. This is a movie, here's my take on this movie. If you made this movie 99 more times, it would have been better all 99 times. I rewatched about an hour of it last night. This is a film written by William Goldman, based on true life events about a man who goes to Africa to build a bridge and during that bridge building, two lions start attacking the construction of the bridge.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Gotta get the hunter.

• 1:00:45Sean Fennessey?

  So they gotta get the hunter. The hunter in this film is played by Michael Douglas. The movie's produced by Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas was not meant to be the star of the movie. I think Sean Connery and Anthony Hopkins turned down the role that Michael Douglas went on to play. In Goldman's conception, it was a Burt Lancaster type.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  And then Michael Douglas dick-chained it.

• 1:01:01Sean Fennessey?

  He came in.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Turns out I am the best one for the job.

• 1:01:04Sean Fennessey?

  And he also rewrote the character and I think significantly weakened the movie.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  This movie and the Rob Reiner film North were the most excited I was ever for movies that disappointed me in the 90s because of Premier Magazine.

• 1:01:15Sean Fennessey?

  That's another great episode. We should do that. We should hold that. And we'll redo that in a quiet week. Ghost in the Darkness, directed by Stephen Hopkins. I wish it was better. It's not. It's red. And again, he's doing a very poor Irish accent.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Sean Fennessey?

  1996 Dead Girl, I have not seen the film.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Didn't ever, didn't know existed.

• 1:01:32Sean Fennessey?

  He plays Dr. Dark.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:01:35Sean Fennessey?

  It's red. 1997 The Saint, recently featured on the rewatchables. This is a movie I like. Is it green?

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  Well. It's certainly-

• 1:01:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's a good use of Val Kilmer.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's a great example of him being, "I can still be a movie star if everything clicks together." It's not a film that I revisit, but I think it can be yellow.

• 1:01:56Sean Fennessey?

  We have six greens right now. We'll yellow it for now.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:01:59Sean Fennessey?

  Now, you haven't seen The Prince of Egypt.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  I haven't.

• 1:02:02Sean Fennessey?

  There are a great many people who have and who would- This was a DreamWorks Animation feature, one of the early DreamWorks films, and was a very big movie. And Val Kilmer had a dual voice role as both Moses and God.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Those are two great roles.

• 1:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  Those are important roles in this world. And you more of a Moses or a God, would you say?

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  I thought Moses really got after it, you know, like-

• 1:02:28Sean Fennessey?

  Definitely. Early in the morning.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the great early writers.

• 1:02:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, absolutely. He was banging it out.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and now God could claim authorship of the commandments. But, you know, to me, that's like a more of like a a Bill Simmons kind of, Zack Low kind of relationship, you know, it's like-

• 1:02:43Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:47Sean Fennessey?

  I'm gonna let that sit right there. Uh, The Prince of Egypt, there is a pocket of the community that would say this is an automatic green.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:02:54Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not gonna do that.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  I've now decided to start respecting communities, because you guys got Minecraft to $700 million.

• 1:03:00Sean Fennessey?

  It's a good point. It's a really good point.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Lots of people out there.

• 1:03:02Sean Fennessey?

  Can I get to a Billy?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  They like different stuff.

• 1:03:04Sean Fennessey?

  Did you see that Sinners made $7.8 million on Easter Monday?

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, because like, apparently, nobody went to work on Monday.

• 1:03:09Sean Fennessey?

  That's sick. I know, we did, like assholes. We both recorded podcasts.

• 1:03:12Speaker 02

  I saw it in my calendar where it was like, "Easter Monday", and I was like, "Did we have Easter Monday off at school?"

• 1:03:18Sean Fennessey?

  Christ has risen, bro.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:20Sean Fennessey?

  You forgot about that, didn't you? Thinking about Moses, you forgot about Christ. Moving on, um, The Prince of Egypt is gonna be... Red.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:03:29Sean Fennessey?

  At first sight. Uh, saw this on a first date in high school.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm, was really excited to be dating this girl. This is pre-Eileen.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 1:03:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yep, and, uh-

• 1:03:42Sean Fennessey?

  She liked it and I didn't.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 1:03:43Sean Fennessey?

  Didn't work out.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  Still know what this girl's up to? Do you, does she know what she missed out on?

• 1:03:48Sean Fennessey?

  Tell you what, she knows what I'm up to.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 1:03:49Sean Fennessey?

  That's all that matters.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Does she follow you on, on platforms?

• 1:03:52Sean Fennessey?

  I honestly have no idea.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:03:53Sean Fennessey?

  I have no idea where she is. She also has a very anonymous sounding name, so there would be not even a way to like look her up.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  She would, she was, your girlfriend from camp?

• 1:04:02Sean Fennessey?

  Her name is Jim Johnson.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, no, I don't know, I don't know what that gal's up to. I hope she's happy.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  At first sight, uh, if I remember correctly, kind of, uh, came at the end of a wave of films where really hot guys had debilitating illnesses in movies?

• 1:04:18Sean Fennessey?

  Well, in this case, he's blind.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, not debilitating illness. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Like Baboon Heart.

• 1:04:22Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Uh, where Christian Slater has the heart.

• 1:04:24Sean Fennessey?

  Untamed Heart.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Oh, it was originally called Baboon Heart.

• 1:04:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, because he does have a baboon heart.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's a beautiful movie.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Is Marisa Tomei in that one?

• 1:04:31Sean Fennessey?

  She is. I have actually recently spoken about this film on the podcast.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:04:34Sean Fennessey?

  As a movie that I quite liked.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  I feel like there's another one. I need a third for a trend.

• 1:04:39Sean Fennessey?

  Well, another Christian Slater movie, uh, Pump Up the Volume, where he is racked with an erection through the entire film, Harry Hardon.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Persistent boneritis.

• 1:04:50Speaker 02

  Talk to your doctor.

• 1:04:51Sean Fennessey?

  At First Sight's a funny one. It's directed by Erwin Winkler, who's the legendary producer of movies like Rocky and Goodfellas. He has directed some movies in his career.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  And Alto Nights.

• 1:04:59Sean Fennessey?

  Not very good, uh, and Alto Nights. At First Sight is based on an Oliver Sacks story.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Awakenings.

• 1:05:07Sean Fennessey?

  Awakenings, the, the great science writer. It's not a good movie. It's red. Joe the King is Frank Whalley's directorial debut about his experiences as a young boy and Val Kilmer plays his father. I have seen this film, though not very many have, and it's not very good.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  I remember it coming out. I don't think I ever saw it.

• 1:05:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. 2000 Pollock, he plays Willem de Kooning in Ed Harris's biopic of Jackson Pollock's life, which I did kind of cru- cruise through last night. And he's in one scene and he's got four lines of dialogue.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so probably not a green.

• 1:05:38Sean Fennessey?

  It's a red. 2000 Red Planet, this is the other of the dueling Mars movies from 2000 along with Mission to Mars.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  This is Carrie Amos and Tom Sizemore.

• 1:05:48Sean Fennessey?

  A reunion with Sizemore.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Sounds like he did not enjoy his experience with Val Kilmer on the set of this film.

• 1:05:53Sean Fennessey?

  No, they did not like each other.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  Much prefer the De Palma movie.

• 1:05:57Sean Fennessey?

  Mission to Mars is interesting.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Sean Fennessey?

  This movie is not very good, it's red. The Sultan Sea, there's a hive here, there's a hive for it.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Can I cook? Can I cook my meth? This is a great late Tarantino ripoff. And DJ Caruso directed it, it's about, um, Val Kilmer plays kind of two roles.

• 1:06:15Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Uh, Danny Parker and Tom Van Allen, um, one is a meth head, gangster, not gangster, basically crook, uh, and, uh, the other is a like jazz saxophonist who has like a totally normie Hollywood life. It is so convoluted, it's got like triple crosses with multiple law enforcement agencies involved, but has a great cast, an absolutely obscenely stupid Vincent D'Onofrio performance where he plays a drug dealer whose nose has fallen off from, uh, overdoing coke or meth. Fantastic Sarsgaard, maybe one of his first film roles.

• 1:06:51Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Um, and Val Kilmer is a great, um, you know, like classic William Holden, I'm in a noir and I am your narrator guy. So I really like this movie, but this is also my kind of movie. Like I will watch the most dogshit version of a guy playing multiple cops against each other while doing drugs and performing robberies and playing saxophone.

• 1:07:16Sean Fennessey?

  I might be able to give you this one.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  We don't have a ton left, so why don't you put it in yellow?

• 1:07:21Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  And we can come back to it.

• 1:07:23Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. The Sultan Sea is yellow, I agree, it's very good. This feels like a movie that is based on a book, and it's not. It was a spec script that I guess Tony Gaten wrote.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  And DJ Caruso is like, pretty decent, he, like he makes pretty good movies.

• 1:07:36Sean Fennessey?

  I would say after this movie, I thought things were gonna be very exciting. And then he goes...

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  He did Suburbia, right?

• 1:07:42Sean Fennessey?

  He, Disturbia, but he goes, Taking Lives, um, with Angelina Jolie and Ethan Hawke, which I don't think is very good. Two for the Money, which you love and isn't good.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Of course I do.

• 1:07:52Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, Disturbia, which is pretty cool.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Sean Fennessey?

  Eagle Eye.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  I think we saw Eagle Eye together.

• 1:07:57Sean Fennessey?

  I think you're right. Is Monahan in that?

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Shia and Monahan.

• 1:08:02Sean Fennessey?

  How about our Monahan stock? I mean, just wow.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  This is, this is what Munger and Buffett do. We just, we invest in quality.

• 1:08:11Sean Fennessey?

  I feel like I, my offshore accounts are exploding with Monahan. Like, his remarkable, in episode six or whatever, where I was like, who is, this lady's 50? This is insane. Anyway, uh, yeah, Caruso has made, not some not great movies, Chris. He made, uh, The Disappointments Room. He made Triple X: Return of Xander Cage, which I know is your favorite Triple X film. Have you seen 2024's Mary, which he directed? It was a Netflix film, I think, about Christ's mother.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:41Sean Fennessey?

  Stars Noah Cohen.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  As Christ?

• 1:08:45Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, no, Noah is a girl.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08:47Sean Fennessey?

  She's Mary, the titular character. You haven't seen that one?

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  I haven't.

• 1:08:51Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, Anthony Hopkins in that movie.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  You have any thoughts on, uh, International Immobiliary's role, uh, coming up? Got the conclave?

• 1:08:57Sean Fennessey?

  I got, my guy is, or I've already chosen my.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Your guy?

• 1:09:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Is it Pietro?

• 1:09:03Sean Fennessey?

  Uh.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  No, he's like kinda.

• 1:09:05Sean Fennessey?

  He's a conservative.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. No, my guy's gonna do fine.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  But you're not gonna say who your guy is.

• 1:09:10Sean Fennessey?

  Why would I reveal that information?

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Just like your high school girlfriend.

• 1:09:15Sean Fennessey?

  Do I have to say this girl's name?

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Don't worry about it, yeah.

• 1:09:20Sean Fennessey?

  2002 Hard Cash, a film I have not seen.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Me neither.

• 1:09:24Sean Fennessey?

  We're getting into tricky territory here.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Feel free to add us if Hard Cash is a classic that we don't know about.

• 1:09:30Sean Fennessey?

  2003 Wonderland. Now, pretty good.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Pretty good.

• 1:09:34Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty good. Now, this is the film in which he plays.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  Two guys talking about a John Holmes movie, waiting for the other one to be like, it's pretty.

• 1:09:40Sean Fennessey?

  Is it okay for me to say I like this movie about John Holmes being coked out of his mind?

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is garbage Boogie Nights.

• 1:09:47Sean Fennessey?

  It is. It comes, you know, some five, six years after Boogie Nights, retelling at least one section of Boogie Nights, in particular, the Wonderland murders, which transpired in 1981.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Who directed this?

• 1:09:57Sean Fennessey?

  James Cox. He also co-wrote the screenplay. Uh, not a, not an illustrious career as a filmmaker.

• 1:10:06Sean Fennessey?

  The movie, it has the Rashomon approach.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:11Sean Fennessey?

  Where it has a number of different perspectives in terms of telling the events of the night that I think works pretty well. Crazy cast.

• 1:10:19Sean Fennessey?

  Harry Fisher, Lisa Kudrow, Josh Lucas, Christina Applegate, Tim Blake Nelson, Janine Garofalo, Kate Bosworth.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  Kate Bosworth's the lead, right?

• 1:10:29Sean Fennessey?

  She's the lead, yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Yellow?

• 1:10:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I don't think it's-

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  I don't think it's gonna make it, but we, it's better than Hard Cash, which I haven't seen.

• 1:10:37Sean Fennessey?

  Definitely. He has a pretty small role in The Missing, the Ron Howard film. This is a reunion after Willow. That's gonna be red. That's Cate Blanchett and Tommy Lee Jones. 2003's Blind Horizon. I don't know what that is.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Do you think he's blind again in that movie?

• 1:10:49Sean Fennessey?

  I hope not. That would be a little soon after At First Sight. 2003, he has a very small role in Masked and Anonymous as an animal wrangler. This is the film written by Bob Dylan and directed by Larry Charles. Val friends with Bobby D. That's how we got in it. It's red. 2004 Spartan.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Green.

• 1:11:07Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Oh, come on, Sean.

• 1:11:10Sean Fennessey?

  Speak.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  David Mamet's film about a Marine gunnery sergeant who, in the beginning of the film, we are introduced to him. He's training Rangers. He's training like special ops guys. And he is then put on a winding, long mission to find the disappearin', the disappeared president's daughter.

• 1:11:31Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Played by Kristen Bell. Derek Luke is also in this film.

• 1:11:34Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  And Kilmer does Mamet up there, I wouldn't say up there past Mantegna, but he is singing his own song with Mamet, and it is awesome. This is the, a truly like, one of the like, great late-period Kilmer performances, or mid-period Kilmer performances to me. The way he like sings the repetitive, like, hit these words over and over again. Where's the girl? Where's the girl? And then even the stuff that he has a facility with Mamet's picked up, like, you know, at one point he says to Derek Luke, he's like, "You're gonna have to go at half-speed, baby." You know, like, or, "I need you to set that motherfucker

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  to receive." You know, like, just like those great Mamet punches to this chest. He nails every one of them.

• 1:12:21Sean Fennessey?

  So, I'm on board with you here. I think I'm a little bit poisoned by the fact that I know Val Kilmer hated working with David Mamet, and so it's a little bit hard to reconcile that with the movie, and I've gotten it in my head. When the movie came out-

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Maybe it's that tension.

• 1:12:36Sean Fennessey?

  I think we were just becoming friends when the movie came out.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:38Sean Fennessey?

  And we didn't, I don't think we saw it together, but I think we were like, yo, did you see this?

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  I started a Facebook group about this movie.

• 1:12:44Sean Fennessey?

  Did you?

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Just for myself, yeah.

• 1:12:46Sean Fennessey?

  Incredible amount of lore in this episode, where it's like the Val voicemail. What the fuck, man? Um, great job on the press box.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks, man.

• 1:12:54Sean Fennessey?

  I thought that was very touching to hear you talk that way, by the way. Uh, I really like Spartan. I don't think I realized at the time that it was the beginning of the end for Mamet.

• 1:13:03Sean Fennessey?

  He's literally only directed two movies since this movie.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's been 20 years. The, the, the second of the two movies comes out like next week.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  On his website.

• 1:13:12Sean Fennessey?

  On henryjohnson.com. It's a prison drama starring Shia LaBeouf about a murderer. And despite all of the very difficult complications of being a fan of David Mamet's writing and directing in 2025, I think we're both excited to see it.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  I mean, it's just, he's one of the singular dramatic writers of my lifetime. I'm just so fascinated by, you know, and obviously like disappointed by where his kind of career led him, but this is a great example of him taking, um, essentially like a, an espionage story, but is more or less like a Parker novel, like the way it is kind of like one man against a massive conspiracy and a mission. So, yeah, I'm not sure, I'm obviously, if you had attention with David Mamet, that's, that's fascinating. I don't remember that story for some reason. His director's commentary on the DVD is amazing. It's very funny. And maybe it was that tension that's what makes the performance so powerful is because he's trying to pull away from Mamet's,

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  you know, uh, orthodoxy.

• 1:14:15Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm. So green for Spartan.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  For me.

• 1:14:18Sean Fennessey?

  I'm with you.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:19Sean Fennessey?

  You're, you're doing this journey with me. 2004 stateside, haven't seen the film.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Don't know it.

• 1:14:24Sean Fennessey?

  We're in the zone of what is this? I like to think of myself as a fairly completest ball knower.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  It's tough with some of these guys that then make seven movies a year.

• 1:14:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  Uh, for the last 20 years of their life, you know, like.

• 1:14:37Sean Fennessey?

  In 2006, he has.

• 1:14:40Sean Fennessey?

  Six movies on the board. 2004, he also, in addition to Spartan, makes Alexander a reunion with Oliver Stone, another filmmaker who he clashed with on The Doors, but Stone has said he had a great experience with him in a much smaller role as King Philip of Macedon.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Sean Fennessey?

  He plays Colin Farrell's, the titular character's father.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  It's like he's, he's giving his inheritance of being in a crazy Oliver Stone movie to Colin Farrell.

• 1:15:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, and of being a swagged out weirdo like Colin Farrell is as well. They, they have a lot in common, I think, as stars, where they sort of, they zag when you expect them to zig.

• 1:15:13Sean Fennessey?

  Alexander's not going in, it's too small of a part, but it's a cool handoff, I think, baton pass, as you put it. 2005's Mindhunters, not a big fan of this movie, more of like a, it's like a horror thriller, like a psychological thriller.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  I don't know that I've seen it, to be honest.

• 1:15:26Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, it's red. 2005's Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Green with a bullet.

• 1:15:31Sean Fennessey?

  Is green. It's a tricky one because it is RDJ's movie.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:15:36Sean Fennessey?

  And it is RDJ's, the beginning of his revival. Val's great in it, and very similar to Mamet, I think he's got a real affinity for the Shane Black tone.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:15:46Sean Fennessey?

  And it really makes you wish that they had more.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Like, I wish he was in Other Guys. Nice Guys, I mean.

• 1:15:51Sean Fennessey?

  Nice Guys, yeah. He would have been great in that.

• 1:15:55Sean Fennessey?

  Just, you know, an incredibly fun kind of redefinition of the detective movie, shot through the prism of the Shane Black. There's a kid, there's Christmas, there's a hot gal, all the stuff that he has.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  His great way of viewing LA is this cesspool that is also paradise. It's awesome.

• 1:16:12Sean Fennessey?

  Val's character is gay in this movie, which is...

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Might be the funniest performance of his career, or at least in his late career, I think.

• 1:16:19Sean Fennessey?

  He, I mean, he's, it's written as hard comedy, but not, there's one other one that I think is much funnier, but we, I don't know if you've seen that movie, we'll get to it. We're getting a lot of, stacking up greens here.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Okay, so where are we at now? One, two...

• 1:16:35Sean Fennessey?

  I think we have eight.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

• 1:16:38Sean Fennessey?

  So we have eight, and we've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven yellows.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:45Sean Fennessey?

  So this is gonna be interesting. This is a great career that he's had. 2006, Summer Love, haven't seen it. Red. 2006 Moscow Zero, which is your other podcast. Uh, Red. Though not Russian Red, right?

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  Who can say?

• 1:17:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Much like your high school girlfriend. There are things about Moscow Zero.

• 1:17:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's all a mystery.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  That are only for Patreon.

• 1:17:08Sean Fennessey?

  2006 Tenth and Wolf. Red.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Can you, how about you tell me the next movie we, you did see?

• 1:17:15Sean Fennessey?

  2006 Déjà Vu, directed by Tony Scott.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:17:20Sean Fennessey?

  Played from 2006's Red. 2006, this is, this is his reunion with Tony Scott as well, after 20 plus years after Top Gun. It's a supporting role. Uh, it's, he's, is he Denzel's, is he the agent investigating the story in Denzel's? Déjà Vu is a very good movie that I haven't watched in a very long time, but I remember enjoying it quite a bit.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Is that on 4K?

• 1:17:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's not. Most of the Tony Scott films are not on 4K.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  Cause they already look too fucking good?

• 1:17:49Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I, I wouldn't want to clean up the mess, you know? I would want some of the dinginess that comes along with a great, hard-cutting Tony Scott action movie. This is Red, although I do think Déjà Vu was a cool movie. Have Dreams Will Travel, no conspiracy, no Felon, no, although people, some people like, seem to like Felon. You know about Felon?

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  He plays someone named John Smith?

• 1:18:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  Oh, is this, uh?

• 1:18:12Sean Fennessey?

  It's, I think it's-

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  This is kinda like shot caller, right?

• 1:18:14Sean Fennessey?

  It's Rick Romanoy's, like, I think it's his first film.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Sean Fennessey?

  And he's wearing a similar beard to the one that Nicolas Hossorwaldau has in that film. And he plays a guy who's in prison with Steven Dorff and Harold Piranow.

• 1:18:28Sean Fennessey?

  Kind of a starter kit for Rick Romanoy.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:18:31Sean Fennessey?

  Who's talented.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  I like, it's my guy.

• 1:18:33Sean Fennessey?

  Um, Red. Delgo from 2008, I don't know, I don't know what this, I don't know what all these movies are. 222?

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  One of the crazy things about the amount of shit he's doing here is that there wasn't a streaming ecosystem. So this is like straight to video here, right?

• 1:18:48Sean Fennessey?

  They were all straight to video. He, he's made a many, many straight to video movies. Now, it's hard to tell why that was happening. Is it because he needed money? Is it because his star was falling? Is it because he just liked to work? You know, I, it's hard to say. 2008 Columbus Day, Red. 2008 The Love Guru, which you love. Michael Myers's failed attempts to relaunch another franchise. Um, he plays himself. It's, it's Red.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:19:15Sean Fennessey?

  2009's The Chaos Experiment?

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  I've seen The Chaos Experiment.

• 1:19:20Sean Fennessey?

  This is a wild career that he's had. This motherfucker was in Top Gun and he's also in The Chaos Experiment.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Oh, this is, I didn't see this, but I think this is a great logline. "In order to make people realize about the adverse effects of global warming, a scientist conducts an experiment on six volunteers. In a turn of events, the volunteers are now his hostages."

• 1:19:42Sean Fennessey?

  Incredible cast in this movie.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  So like Earth Day Saw.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Craigor, call me.

• 1:19:51Sean Fennessey?

  This is hot IP.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:52Sean Fennessey?

  I feel like this would really work in 2025. Armando Sante, Eric Roberts, Patrick Muldoon.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  In Chaos Experiment?

• 1:19:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that is the VOD Kill Team.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:01Sean Fennessey?

  Those guys, okay, moving on. 2009 Streets of Blood, I haven't seen, these movies seem fake.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Sean Fennessey?

  American Cowslip, 2009 The Fall. Literally, what are these movies is amazing. He worked though, he worked his ass off. In 09, he made two, four, six, seven feature films.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  American Cowslip is about an agoraphobic drug addict wishes to grow a perfect flower while his brother attempts to save his soul and his landlord schemes to have him evicted.

• 1:20:32Sean Fennessey?

  Sounds kind of interesting. Looks like he has a small part in this film.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  What's up with the, so did you, what do you want to do about Bad Lieutenant?

• 1:20:40Sean Fennessey?

  I like him, you know, he's, he's Nick Cage's character's partner in the movie. This is Port of Call New Orleans, this sort of like.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  I haven't seen this in a while.

• 1:20:50Sean Fennessey?

  False sequel to the Able Ferrar movie. This movie was directed by Werner Herzog. Um, it's, it's a cool, I think it's a cool movie. It's in my sort of second half of my Werner Herzog movies that I enjoy.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:21:01Sean Fennessey?

  It's very different from most of his movies. It's best known, I think, for that famous scene where he's sort of like thinks he's seeing lizards in the, in the office. Is it lizards or alligators? I can't remember, it might be alligators.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Like I said, it's been a minute.

• 1:21:13Sean Fennessey?

  Really fun Cage performance that is very out there, but I don't think it's in the Val Hall of Fame. 2009 Hardwired, no. 2009 Double Identity, no. 2010 The Traveler, no. 2011 Bloodworth.

• 1:21:28Sean Fennessey?

  No. 2011 MacGruber.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:31Sean Fennessey?

  So I think this is the one I was saying for comedy. He plays Dieter von Kuntz. First of all, MacGruber is so fucking funny.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Sean Fennessey?

  I was watched all of the Val scenes last night. Will Forte. I think we're maybe not making enough of how good Will Forte is at being Will Forte.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Will Forte also after Val passed away, talked about, what was the reality show that those guys? Amazing Race?

• 1:21:55Sean Fennessey?

  Did they go on Amazing Race?

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  No, so they, while they were making MacGruber, Will Forte was obsessed with Amazing Race. And I guess Val Kilmer was like, why are you watching this shit? And he was like, you should check it out. And Val Kilmer like watched it and was like, now I am obsessed with Amazing Race. And they actually made steps towards the two of them doing Amazing Race together. But like their management teams put the kibosh on it.

• 1:22:17Sean Fennessey?

  That's incredible.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Can you imagine if we had had that? You know, Mike White's done it, like if we'd had Forte and Kilmer as an amazing race.

• 1:22:24Sean Fennessey?

  Just talking to each other would be magical to me. Um, MacGruber is very funny, you know? Kilmer's not in it a ton. This is basically right at the end of when he starts working regularly. Um, and it's probably the last studio movie he makes besides, uh, Top Gun Maverick. No, that's not true. He made a couple of others, but. I think he's really funny. Let's yellow it for now. I think I'm open to it being green. Um, he's, he's great in this movie. Uh, 2011's Kill the Irishman, which. Was it, was it Michael Shannon? I think it's a Michael Shannon movie, which some people seem to enjoy. I don't really have a strong memory of it.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Jonathan Hensley directed it. I feel like I've seen this, but I don't remember it. Oh, oh, I remember this poster. Uh, yeah, this is, this is good garbage crime.

• 1:23:16Sean Fennessey?

  2011 Twixt. I only just recently rewatched this because of Megalopolis and Coppola. I think this is a cool Val performance. He plays an author who is trying to get to the bottom of something mysterious in his town. Um, that is maybe more ethereal than he realizes. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a good performance. It's not great. Coppola apparently had been friends with Val for many, many years and they'd wanted to work together. He tried to cast him in The Outsiders in 1983 and he passed. So it's a, it's a very interesting movie in the late arc of Coppola, but I don't think in the Hall of Fame for Val. I've never seen Wyatt Earp's Revenge. I've never seen Riddle. I've never seen Standing Up. I have seen Palo Alto.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  As have I, and his son is in Palo Alto.

• 1:23:59Sean Fennessey?

  Jack Kilmer's in it, which is why I think he's in it. This is Gia Coppola's directorial debut, which is an adaptation, I think, of James Franco's short story collection.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, Emma Roberts is in it.

• 1:24:09Sean Fennessey?

  It's amazing what ideas I have in my head. How do I know about James Franco's short story collection being adapted by Francis Ford Coppola's granddaughter? Anyway.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  In 2013.

• 1:24:19Sean Fennessey?

  I saw it in a screening room.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:21Sean Fennessey?

  I remember liking it. Val's got a small part.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Was this... You were in LA for this?

• 1:24:25Sean Fennessey?

  I was, yeah. It was a Grantland thing. Um, I think it's red.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Uh, yes. 2014's Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, I never saw, but am I mistaken in remembering that he was doing a lot of Mark Twain stuff?

• 1:24:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, he wrote a Mark Twain one-man show.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:42Sean Fennessey?

  That he performed for some time around America and toured with it a little bit. And I watched some of it on YouTube last night, and people seemed to really enjoy it. It was sort of this, like, aphoristic collection of monologues that featured a lot of the Twainisms. Um, but that's the other thing is that Kilmer went to Juilliard, trained theater actor, wrote poetry. You know, very sophisticated guy. We were using the word weird, I think with a lot of affection, but a real, like, artist soul, even though he was in all these VOD movies.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  I think one of the things that we often, uh... Well, we wish contemporary actors showed more sides of themselves. It often feels like these guys get kind of anointed and then shaped from a relatively young age and don't have a lot of the life experiences that informed the performances of some of the actors we grew up watching.

• 1:25:29Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  Uh, that may not be the case, but in, you know, it's like... Timothee Chalamet is one of the few people where I'm like, "Oh, it seems like you have, like, a story." Like, you know, you came from this building in New York, and you like this kind of music, and you've been always wanting to do this. And a lot of these guys are like, "I'm from nowhere, and I have no beliefs." You know, like...

• 1:25:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, he has personality.

• 1:25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Val Kilmer, kind of to me, is like... Just got his obsessions and his passions and his interests.

• 1:25:53Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed. I think Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn is read, but I think the work he did as Mark Twain is quite interesting. 2017 Song to Song, he has a small performance as Dwayne in Terrence Malick's live music Fantasia. I can't say much for Val's performance in the role, which is pretty small. I can say much for his YouTube video of him introducing The Black Lips at South By back when this film was being made, in which he's kind of channeling Jim Morrison and also continues to introduce Rooney Mara as a member of the band while they are getting ready to perform.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Black Lips fan?

• 1:26:33Sean Fennessey?

  I was a big fan at the time. I feel like they're, have they been canceled? Did something happen with Black Lips?

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  I don't, they are also, they could have also put out like 15 albums in the last three years.

• 1:26:41Sean Fennessey?

  And in 2011, I was like, this is one of my favorite bands, but I feel like there's been some weirdness.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Actually, yeah.

• 1:26:46Sean Fennessey?

  Did you cancel them?

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:26:48Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:26:49Sean Fennessey?

  Did that come up on the watch?

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  They still appear on Moscow Zero quite frequently.

• 1:26:53Sean Fennessey?

  Song to Song is read, but it's cool that Malick, that Kilmer got a chance to work with Malick. The Snowman, you remember this?

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  One of the great turkeys.

• 1:27:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, Harry Hole.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Sean Fennessey?

  As portrayed by Michael Fassbender. This was a...

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Tomlinson Alfredson directed this.

• 1:27:08Sean Fennessey?

  A Nordic mystery? That was one of the famous bomb.

• 1:27:13Sean Fennessey?

  I don't really remember what Val did. He played a character named Walter. Was he the villain?

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  I honestly, I saw this, like I saw half of this once and was like, this is, this is a disaster.

• 1:27:22Sean Fennessey?

  Once again, Val plays himself in Jay and Silent Bob Reboot, which is yet another.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  Address whether, what's the state of our askew verse pod? Cause here's my, here's my pitch to you.

• 1:27:34Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  Pretty soon, there are going to be too many

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  let's just say not awesome movies. You know what I mean?

• 1:27:41Sean Fennessey?

  They've been coming out later this year.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  Like, I, no, I just mean in the askew verse. You know what I mean? Cause like, if you go up to a certain point with Kevin Smith, it's like, these are just Stoke classics, right? And now it's like, he's, he's been making a lot of other askew verse movies. Like,

• 1:27:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  Doesn't he have, he's done Clerks 2?

• 1:27:57Sean Fennessey?

  And 3.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  And 3. I don't, Reboot is about, what happens in Reboot?

• 1:28:03Sean Fennessey?

  It's kind of a...

• 1:28:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's kind of a hard sequel to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  Which is, I love.

• 1:28:11Sean Fennessey?

  It's great. The first, like, all the way up to Jersey Girl, I like all of those movies a lot.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:17Sean Fennessey?

  When we get to Jersey Girl, then I have, I think things take a turn.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Sean Fennessey?

  You're saying, are there too many good Kevin Smith movies to have a pod?

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  We need to do the Esq universe pod so that we don't have, like, this situation where we're like, and then from 2000, after Jersey Girl on, we have to talk about 12 movies that aren't that good.

• 1:28:39Sean Fennessey?

  To me, it's not a Kevin Smith pod, it's the View Esq Universe pod.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:42Sean Fennessey?

  So the View Esq Universe includes those first five movies, but it also includes movies like Jay and Silent Bob Reboot.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:49Sean Fennessey?

  If Jay and Silent Bob are in the movie, if Dante from Clerks is in the movie.

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  I'm glad you've thought this through.

• 1:28:54Sean Fennessey?

  If Matt and Ben, from the way they're portrayed in Strike Back, for example, are in the movie. Affleck, you, the bomb, and Phantoms, all that.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  What about as the archangels in Dogma?

• 1:29:04Sean Fennessey?

  And Dogma is a definitively Esq Universe movie, so Dogma 4K coming later this year.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  That's maybe, maybe that's the peg.

• 1:29:11Sean Fennessey?

  That's the peg. That's the peg. The Kevin Smith thing is tough. Here's the thing. I worship Kevin Smith, as all guys like me did.

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  It's not an understatement to say that there, like, there's, we are not doing anything resembling what we do with our lives without Kevin Smith.

• 1:29:25Sean Fennessey?

  He invented podding in so many ways. I think he's just a great figure in the world of movies since he hit the scene. I've been pretty tough on him in print a few times, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was like, you guys could fuck right off.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  Oh, I wasn't like, yeah.

• 1:29:40Sean Fennessey?

  But I would be, I would happily sing his praises on a four-hour podcast with him.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:29:45Sean Fennessey?

  And so we will do it.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  Moscow Zero.

• 1:29:46Sean Fennessey?

  What if I look at the Dogma 4K and I'm like, this looks like shit. He Cameron'd it.

• 1:29:52Sean Fennessey?

  Why is this all green? What's with the tinting? What's with the AI corrections?

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  I haven't had a bad experience yet with tinting. I know, you warned me off some of the Camerons. I know that.

• 1:30:02Sean Fennessey?

  Did you feel any issue with The Miller's Crossing?

• 1:30:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:30:05Sean Fennessey?

  That's one that there's some angst about, the Miller's Crossing criterion.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  My experience of Miller's Crossing is either on streaming, or honestly, probably VHS, so seeing it in that version and getting to see, like, the wood grain was pretty incredible. I pre-ordered my Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut

• 1:30:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:23Speaker 02

  4K steelbook.

• 1:30:24Sean Fennessey?

  And that was $387?

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  It wasn't cheap.

• 1:30:26Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27Speaker 02

  And, yeah, I was thinking about getting Tombstone on the same format.

• 1:30:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, let's have a steelbook conversation down the road.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:30:35Sean Fennessey?

  I gotta get Tim Simons back in here too, so you being able to sit with me and Tim while we do this, I think would be a fun conversation.

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  To have it translated into English.

• 1:30:43Sean Fennessey?

  Who's doing the translating at this point?

• 1:30:47Sean Fennessey?

  Jane and Simon and Bob reboot is out. A Soldier's Revenge, I haven't seen it. Pay Dirt, I haven't seen it. I mean, these films were made after he was using the voice box, you know, because of the surgeries and the radiation that he had. I think he had two tracheotomies and he was still acting in films. And then very memorably acting in his final role in Top Gun Maverick, where he came back as Iceman. And he shares one scene with Tom Cruise, which is mostly wordless from Kilmer and yet tremendously emotionally affecting.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  Might be the last time I felt anything in my life.

• 1:31:14Sean Fennessey?

  It would be hard to not weep during this sequence. And I think it has to be green because it's the capstone.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so if you feel like we're running out of room, I think you could make the argument that Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick could occupy one slot, since it's the same character.

• 1:31:30Sean Fennessey?

  I'm hearing Amanda's voice in my ear right now.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Which is what?

• 1:31:33Sean Fennessey?

  And it's saying, if you don't put Maverick on this list, I will assassinate you.

• 1:31:36Speaker 02

  But why can't we have Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick in one slot?

• 1:31:40Sean Fennessey?

  That's not how the Hall of Fame works.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  Alrighty, so Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick take up two slots on a top 10. Let's go through, see, we gotta put Real Genius in there, right?

• 1:31:49Sean Fennessey?

  Real Genius is staying. Let's just, well, let's just count what we have. We've got Real Genius is green, Top Gun is green, The Doors is green, Tombstone is green, Batman Forever is green, Heat is green, Spartan is green, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is green, Top Gun Maverick is green, that's only nine.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  So let's put MacGruber in, right?

• 1:32:08Sean Fennessey?

  Let me read the yellows just for posterity. Top Secret is breakthrough performance, Willow, Thunderheart, True Romance, The Saint, The Sultan's Sea, Wonderland, and MacGruber. Now, does MacGruber belong in over? And these are the key ones to me. Top Secret, Willow, and The Saint.

• 1:32:32Sean Fennessey?

  If you had to choose.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  I think for a lot of people who are younger than us, MacGruber will be much more important than real genius. You know what I mean? Like, I think that, I think we have to kind of understand a little bit about the, the passage of time here. And for many people, this is like, honestly, like, the, the last great, their introduction to Kilmer, maybe. It's the last great Kilmer performance. It's, you know, the most significant. Now, I, I, I think, probably, I can't do this pod and I have Spartan on it, but I understand that Spartan is going to be a divisive, like, out there pick for some people.

• 1:33:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think if we're doing the, um, the objective list.

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:33:13Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, Willow is on it. I think Willow is a huge movie for him and his career. If you want to, uh, I'm granting you.

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  My one.

• 1:33:21Sean Fennessey?

  The, the power to put Spartan on it.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  I, I would, I appreciate it and I, and I take that power. I don't take my right to vote for granted, and I'm voting for Spartan.

• 1:33:31Sean Fennessey?

  Do, so what of the yellows do you choose? Or should I choose?

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  No, I think I got to, I got to push through Spartan. So you choose the yellow. Choose the last yellow.

• 1:33:41Sean Fennessey?

  I prefer Willow to The Saint. I'm just gonna say it.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  I think that's fine.

• 1:33:45Sean Fennessey?

  So I, I think, I think The Saint is cool.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  So MacGruber not? No.

• 1:33:48Sean Fennessey?

  And no MacGruber.

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:33:50Sean Fennessey?

  Cause we have real genius.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  And just to remind everybody, this is not a referendum on the films themselves. And it's not necessarily even like, how good was Kilmer? Cause, you know, Batman Forever has to be on this because he played Batman.

• 1:34:03Sean Fennessey?

  Correct.

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  He was at the center of the movie making world.

• 1:34:05Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you for clarifying this enterprise. You're always a great partner in these endeavors. So then I'm gonna put Willow in green. So the final list is going to be Real Genius, Top Gun, Willow, The Doors, Batman Forever, Heat, Spartan, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Top Gun Maverick, Wait A Minute.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  You didn't say Tombstone.

• 1:34:25Sean Fennessey?

  And Tombstone. Thank you.

• 1:34:29Sean Fennessey?

  That's pretty good.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Sean Fennessey?

  Apologies to some of these other movies.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  If you only have time for three Val Kilmer films and you haven't seen Tombstone, Heat, or, what's the third? What's the third essential one? Doors?

• 1:34:43Sean Fennessey?

  I think the Doors.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, Doors, Tombstone, and Heat. You'll get a picture of the man.

• 1:34:49Sean Fennessey?

  I loved Val. He was great.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Sean Fennessey?

  It was great to see him in movies. He's one of the five defining dudes of the 90s, I think.

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:34:59Sean Fennessey?

  Right?

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Sean Fennessey?

  Very sad that he's gone.

• 1:35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, I think it's been, and it's also just like a sad, it's like I thought about Bruce Willis a bunch, you know, in relationship to Val Kilmer and...

• 1:35:15Sean Fennessey?

  At this stage of his life.

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just like, you know, not only like feeling terribly for their families, but also like, oh, it's a shame that like the last 20 years or so of your life was kind of like spent making these kind of disposable films when we obviously would have gotten so much more.

• 1:35:31Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe I should go back and look back at some of those VOD movies, because some of those movies can be good, you know, so I don't mean to denigrate them, I just haven't seen so many of them. Well, Chris, thanks for joining me.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Of course, man. Thanks for having me.

• 1:35:42Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks. We can hear you on Moscow Zero.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Sean Fennessey?

  Which is a daily pod, it's a daily six-hour pod simulcast on RT.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  I'm also gonna start doing some of those Jubilee videos.

• 1:35:54Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know what that is.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  Yes, you do. You don't know that?

• 1:35:57Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:35:57Speaker 02

  It's like, usually it's like, I take on 20 conservatives and it's like the guy sitting at the table.

• 1:36:04Sean Fennessey?

  I, God, we really need to parody one of those. I saw an extremely stern one this morning on social media that was Kyrie can do everything better than John Stockton can do anything.

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  It was an old guy versus 20 LeBron stands. No, that was Skip versus 20 LeBron stands. Now there's an old guy versus a bunch of guys who are like, you know, Kate Cunningham is better than Magic Johnson.

• 1:36:30Sean Fennessey?

  This is me with Val Kilmer and Austin Butler, where I'm like, I really like Austin Butler and I'm happy for him, but sit down and relax. Watch Tombstone again, Austin, all right? You want to get into the temple of weird, beautiful man, you need to go through these pillars.

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Sean Fennessey?

  Thanks to Jack Sanders. We'll be back on Friday. We're gonna preview the summer movie slate, and I had David Cronenberg in studio yesterday.

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  How did that feel?

• 1:36:54Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he was just very kind and he's made some of the most fucked up movies ever and he was great.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  I have one last question for you that I forgot to ask.

• 1:37:00Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  Who is the director you wish Val Kilmer would have worked with?

• 1:37:04Sean Fennessey?

  Oh.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  While you're thinking?

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  David Lynch?

• 1:37:11Sean Fennessey?

  Well, you know, famously, he wanted him for a part in Blue Velvet, but we don't know which part. And I don't think it was Kyle McLaughlin because the whole thing with Blue Velvet was we did Dune together. But what was the part that Val was meant to play in that movie?

• 1:37:26Speaker 02

  Right, it's kind of.

• 1:37:28Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know.

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  It's not Hopper, right?

• 1:37:30Sean Fennessey?

  I doubt it. I doubt. He was so young. But Lynch, he would have been marvelous with Lynch. That's a great shout. I mean, there's the obvious, like, you know, the guys, the Coens, the Scorsese's that we love, who I think he would have done great with the Coens because he had that odd affectation. He would have been a very good Cronenberg actor, a very physical performer. Um, I don't know. I mean, he, the fact that he could work comfortably with David Mamet and Martha Coolidge in Real Genius and, you know, Michael Mann, I mean, these are very different kinds of directors and he was, he was, he was a real one. R I P to Val Kilmer.

• 1:38:05Speaker 02

  Shroud is good?

• 1:38:07Sean Fennessey?

  Very good, very good. In terms of late style, there's nobody doing it like Cronenberg. He's, he's a one of one. So I hope you'll listen to that conversation later this week. Thanks, Yar.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

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