The White Huns

The Huns weren’t just Attila’s warriors in Europe — in Central Asia, the White Huns built the most powerful Hunnic empire, ruling for a century and dominating the ancient Silk Roads. While the European Huns fought Rome, the White Huns commanded trade routes, overthrew kingdoms, and waged relentless campaigns across Central and South Asia. Their influence reached from Persia to India, transforming politics, warfare, and culture. In today's episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Professor Hyun Jin Kim to uncover the origins, rise, and legacy of this formidable yet often overlooked empire. MORE Attila the Hun: Scourge of God: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7y5w7yyVOqwYxvqHAAfthi?si=0a9aaff5b64b4d36 Attila the Hun: Terror of Rome: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5f12sJEHRH8KPrQCopenrG?si=1bb6c6b6b8164dea Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan and the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music courtesy of Epidemic Sounds The Ancients is a History Hit podcast. LIVE SHOW: Buy tickets for The Ancients at the London Podcast Festival here: https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/whats-on/words/the-ancients-2/ Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Tristan Hughes?

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• 1:05Tristan Hughes?

  Hello guys, welcome to this latest episode of The Ancients. And we are going to Central Asia to talk through the story of a group of Huns not very well known here in the West. And yet, they forged one of the largest empires in ancient history. They dominated the Persians and so much more. They are the White Huns. And to tell their story today is Professor Hyunjin Kim, who dialed in from Melbourne in Australia. I am so happy that we are now covering this story on The Ancients. It's a brilliant one. I hope you guys enjoy. Let's go.

• 1:53Tristan Hughes?

  Say "The Huns", and you'll probably think of rows upon rows of horse archers descending on the Roman empires and wreaking havoc, led by their immortalized leader Attila, the Scourge of God. But that was just the Western fringe of the Huns' great story. These people left their mark across the length of Eurasia, including in Central Asia, where the most powerful Huns state ever forged rose and reigned supreme for a century.

• 2:26Tristan Hughes?

  We know them today as the White Huns. So what do we know about their story? And just how powerful did this empire become? This is the story of the White Huns with our guest, Professor Hyun Jin Kim.

• 2:45Tristan Hughes?

  Hyun Jin, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Thank you for inviting me again. It's great to see you.

• 2:51Tristan Hughes?

  You're more than welcome. It's been a couple of years since we recorded those two bumper episodes on Attila the Hun. But the story of the Huns, it's so much more than just Attila and this westward expansion into Europe, isn't it? And that feels to be defined by this other great Hunnic empire, if not superpower, that emerges in Central Asia, the White Huns.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yes, indeed. The White Huns may be unfamiliar to many in the West, but they had an enormous impact on historical developments in the Iranian world, in Central Asia, and of course also in India as well. And so certainly it is a topic worth talking about.

• 3:30Tristan Hughes?

  So when and where are we talking about with the story of the White Huns? How many centuries are we going to be covering?

• 3:37Speaker 03

  We will be covering roughly, it depends on how far we want to go. So their history begins in the fourth century, in the middle of the fourth century, and later Hefthalais or White Hun remnants, they are still around until the middle of the ninth century. Now, I don't think we'll get as far as the ninth century.

• 3:56Tristan Hughes?

  Probably not.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Certainly, we can cover the Imperial period, which goes up to the middle of the sixth century AD.

• 4:03Tristan Hughes?

  It's just such an amazing story because as you highlighted, here in the West, we don't know the name White Huns. So if you've heard about it, it's a very enigmatic story, but an extraordinary one. My first question is, why do we call them White Huns? Why are they given a colour?

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yes, it's because the Huns identified cardinal directions by colors. And so in Inner Asia, imperial states usually identify, they divide their empires into constituent parts. And usually those parts would be associated with a cardinal direction. And that cardinal direction is then equated with a particular color. East is identified with the color blue and the north with the color black. West with white and red with south. And so white Huns designate the western Huns.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  So there are these four principal components, but black and blue is combined to form the eastern half of the imperial stage in the Honeck context, and white and red also form the western half. So the western Huns would have precedence in the Honeck imperial structure over the red Huns. And the blue Huns would have precedence over the black Huns. And the east would usually outrank the west as well in the imperial confederation. So that is why the white Huns are referred to as the white Huns. And unfortunately, Procopius, our Roman source in the sixth century, heard this and thought, oh, that must be the

• 5:39Speaker 03

  the white Huns are, you know, very fair and they're white-skinned and not swarthy or reddish like the European Huns as supposedly were. But of course, the name white Huns has nothing to do with skin color and has everything to do with their position in the wider Honeck world. They were the western Huns.

• 6:00Tristan Hughes?

  But it's interesting that you stress western Huns there because at the end of the day, you do also have Attila and Huns even further west going into Europe. So were they seen as almost beyond the color scale? If in that mindset, they already see the white Huns in Central Asia as being in the west?

• 6:16Speaker 03

  Well, I think the European Huns would have been seen as northern Huns. So I think there is some evidence to suggest that they were the black Huns. And so the white Huns are western when you look at it from the perspective of the blue Huns who stay in the east. And so from the perspective of the blue Huns, the white Huns who invade Central Asia and Persia are to their west, whereas the European Huns are of course to their northwest. So they are the northern Huns. And of course, after a while, originally, of course, they formed part of a single political entity. They most probably formed part of a single political entity. The Chinese sources definitely say that, but by the fifth century,

• 7:01Speaker 03

  we're not looking at a unified political entity. The European Huns, Atlas Huns, are a different political entity from, say, the White Huns. And in fact, Chinese sources tell us that. They tell us that you shouldn't confuse the two groups. They're both Huns, but they're ruled by different rulers, indicating that political division had taken place by then. Those empires were too massive by that stage to be a single ruler. So the political unity of the Hunnic world had broken down, certainly by the fifth century.

• 7:33Tristan Hughes?

  You mentioned their Chinese sources and also earlier this figure of Procopius. So Huiyin, can you let us know what types of source material we have for learning about the White Huns and their story in Central Asia?

• 7:46Speaker 03

  So in terms of source material, the majority of our sources are Chinese. And the most important source is the Wei Shu. The Wei Shu is the dynastic history, the annals of the Northern Wei Dynasty of China. Now, the Northern Wei were not a native Chinese dynasty. They were a Mongolic people who conquered Northern China. So we call them the Tuo Ba Xianbei in Mandarin, but in early Middle Chinese, their name was probably pronounced something like Tokbal Serbi. Now, these people, of course, being Mongolic and having originated in the steppes, they knew the steppes very well. They knew Inner Asia very well. They were contemporaneous with the White Huns.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  They had diplomatic relations with the White Huns, exchanged ambassadors. So they knew the White Huns very well. And so the Wei Shu is the most critically important source because they provide us with the most accurate information about the White Hunnic Empire. The other source that is important for our purposes is the Liang Shu. This is another Chinese historical source that is roughly contemporaneous with the White Han. Well, it is actually contemporaneous with the White Huns, but it is preserved, a lot of it is preserved in a later source. And so, in that sense. Because of issues associated with preservation, et cetera. Not all of it can be seen as contemporaneous, but it does provide us with very important information about the the White Huns states as well.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  That source comes from southern China, so from Chinese China, ethnically Chinese China. The Wei Lü, which is an even earlier source from the third century, is also important because it helps us to geographically identify the Huns state before it splinters into the Black Huns, the White Huns, et cetera. So those are the eastern sources. And we also have inscriptions and numismatic evidence from Central Asia and India. These are in a variety of languages. The White Huns themselves are used to all kinds of languages for the purposes of administration. So they would strike coins or issue administrative documents in Sargdian, which is a central Asian language. Baktrian.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Yes, it's in Uzbekistan today. Yes. And then, of course, Baktrian, which was a language spoken in northern Afghanistan. Middle Persian, which is the language of the Iranian Sassanian Empire, which was conquered by the White Huns. The Brahmi script, of course, this is the script of northern India. And the the Gondara script, which was a script which gradually disappeared but was used in what is now northern Pakistan. So the White Huns used all of these scripts, as well as, of course, their native language. They refer to themselves as Huns, but they also take on a variety of identities in order to rule these disparate regions. So there are many inscriptions and

• 10:43Speaker 03

  coins that give us some information about the White Huns coming from Central Asia in particular and also from northern India. And then we, of course, have the Greco-Roman sources from the sixth century, which also do provide us with some tidbits of information. Priscus, who is a historian writing in the fifth century, is actually the best of these sources. But unfortunately, he only survives in fragments. So he does tell us something about the Khittarites, who we will talk about, I think, Leisha. The first dynasty to rule the White Huns Empire. And then Procopius, Leisha, tells us. Well, gives us tits and bits of information about the Hephthalites, who are the the second imperial dynasty to ruled the White Hun state.

• 11:25Tristan Hughes?

  It is such an amazing part of the world that the White Huns will ultimately rule over. As you mentioned, all those different cultures, Sogdian, Bactrian, Persian, Gandhara, the Guptas in India as well, and this amazing kind of meshing together, as had happened, and as we've done in a previous podcast episode on the Kushan Empire. Once again, you get that amazing mix of cultures and we'll explore that as time goes on. We've got inscriptions, we've got numismatic evidence in coinage. Has there been much archaeological work done in Central Asia that has revealed remains from the White Huns or or DNA evidence on particular burials?

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Yes, not so much in terms of DNA evidence. I wish more research could be done in Central Asia, but obviously, given the political instability of the region. And unfortunately, the the political centre of the the White Hun state was Bactria, which, as you know, lies in northern Afghanistan, which is current North Afghanistan. And of course, archaeological research there is extremely difficult, given the unfortunate modern political circumstances of the region. And so, yes, the archaeological research has been done in the past, but it is limited. But we do have a ton of numismatic evidence, which helps us to identify the White Huns and also find out about the names of some of their kings.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  But of course, the the main problem is that a narrative history for the White Huns is largely lacking. We're almost entirely dependent upon the records left by the enemies of the White Huns. That is their enduring misfortune, that their dynastic chronicles did not survive. And so we're dependent on what the Sisadian Persians tell us about them and what the Romans tell us about them, and of course, what the Chinese tell us about them. The Chinese sources tend to be more neutral, and so they are, for the most part, a bit more reliable.

• 13:15Tristan Hughes?

  You mentioned there the Kiderites. Let's start exploring what we know about the Huns, beginning with the Kiderites and the forming of this White Hun state in Central Asia. How do the White Huns end up in what is today Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and start forming a state there?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  Yes, so the Wei Lü, which is the source that we mentioned earlier, the earliest source that is important for our consideration. That source tells us that the Xiongnu, after they had been expelled from their native homeland in Mongolia, settled in the Altai region. So this is western Mongolia, eastern Kazakhstan, that area. And from there, and the Wei Lü tells us that the Huns were situated there until the the middle of the third century. Then thereafter, the Wei Shu, that other source from northern China, which was the dynastic chronicle of the the Tuo Ba Shenbei Northern Wei Dynasty. That source tells us that the the weaker

• 14:18Speaker 03

  segment of the Huns were left behind in that region and eventually conquered much of eastern Kazakhstan and became the Yueban Xiongnu or the Yueban Huns. So these presumably were the Blue Huns, the the people who stayed in the east, but they were visibly weaker when the Northern Wei compared them with the other Hunnic states further west. And so the chroniclers of the Northern Wei tell us that these more westerly Huns who broke off from the Blue Huns or the Yueban Huns were much more powerful. So they are referred to as the Strong Huns. And by the middle of the fourth century, the Wei Shu tells us, these Huns conquered Sobdiya. So they conquer

• 15:04Speaker 03

  the Kangju Kingdom that used to rule over what is now Uzbekistan. That is about 350 AD. And then just 10 years later, they conquer much of Afghanistan from the Sassanian Persians. The Sassanian Persians at this time ruled by Shapur II, ruled over Afghanistan via a collateral branch of their dynasty, the so-called Kushan Shas. So these are Sassanian royals who, after the Sassanian conquest of the Kushan Empire, assumed the rulership of the the Kushans. So there are Persians ruling over the Kushans in or former Kushan territories in Afghanistan. And The Huns, the White Huns, come over and they conquer Northern Afghanistan from the Sasanians

• 15:49Speaker 03

  and end the Sasanian Kushanshahs. But then these Huns, the Kiterites, so then after they take over, assume the title Kushanshah, which then throws off a whole generation of scholars who then thought, oh, these Kiterites must then be not Huns, but Iranian Kushanshahs who had a revival of sorts. So there was a lot of confusion around this. And very famous inter-Asian scholar of Japanese extraction, Professor Inoki, fell for this, unfortunately, and he thought that the Huns were an Iranian people, a native Iranian people, who reconstituted the Kushan Empire.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  But of course, more recent numismatic evidence that was studied by scholars has shown conclusively that that is definitely not the case. The language that was spoken by the incoming White Huns was most likely a Turkic language. After they had settled in these regions, of course, they used all these other languages as well for administrative purposes, but their original language, the names of their early kings, are almost definitely Turkish. So the reason why the early White Huns are referred to as the Kiterites is because of coins that refer to one of their early kings. The name is Kidara.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Now, that is almost certainly not his personal name, because Kidara is probably just a local corruption of the old Turkic word Kidirti, which means west. So White Huns, the color signifies west, a Kidirti or Kidara just means the western king. And so that's why in Byzantine sources, for example, Eastern Roman sources, they're also referred to as the Kiterites, the Westerners, in other words. These Kiterites settle in Sogdea, and there is a certain king called Ulag, who is mentioned, ruling in Sogdea, and he calls himself Ulag, the king of the Huns, and Kushanshah, right?

• 17:50Speaker 03

  So he immediately assumes that title. And because the Huns assumed the role of Kushan kings, even the Chinese became a bit confused. So the Chinese population would provide two origin myths about the the Khedirites and the Heptarites, the the Whitehounds. And they would say that, oh, according to one version, they are, they share the same ancestors as the the Gaocheng, these Turks in or Turkic-speaking peoples in modern Kazakhstan and in Mongolia. And of course, yes, that's correct, that's the correct version. And the the early Whitehounds definitely spoke the Turkic language. But then they say, oh, they're also descended from the Kushans

• 18:34Speaker 03

  or the Uyghurs. Because in their diplomatic correspondences with the Chinese, the Whitehounds did exactly the same thing. They said, oh, we are Whitehounds, but so we're also Kushans. And so that threw off not just people in the West, but in the East, they, in other words, they adopted multiple identities simultaneously in order to facilitate conquests and to rule their territories more effectively. Obviously, I think what they were trying to do was appeal to the native Kushanized population of Afghanistan, who obviously would have felt hostile towards the Persians who had conquered them earlier. And so you can imagine this scenario of the the Whitehounds coming in and claiming to be the restorers

• 19:18Speaker 03

  of the Kushan Empire and pretending as if they're some kind of liberators. So it was a clever political strategy.

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• 20:24Tristan Hughes?

  And it's something you see time and time again throughout history, like Alexander the Great entering Egypt and portraying himself as a liberator of Egypt from the Persians. So interesting how the White Huns adopt something similar with the Kiderites. So the Kiderites have taken over Sogdiya and Bactria, so Afghanistan, Uzbekistan area. They've done this consolidation. But do we know, if you've still got the Sassanian Persians to their west, of course, you've got the Hindu Kush to their southeast as well. What do the Kiderites do next? Do they just try and strengthen their hold over these core regions? Or do they do more expansion?

• 21:01Speaker 03

  Oh, they immediately start to expand. So they first consolidate their conquests in Central Asia and then by the late 380s, thereabouts, and certainly by the end of the 4th century, they have already conquered Gandhara, so what is now northern Pakistan, and they're launching raids into Gupta, India. They also, of course, invade the Sassanian Empire.

• 21:26Tristan Hughes?

  Sorry, Hyunjin, Gupta, India, that's the Gupta Dynasty, Gupta Empire, that was the big power at the time in India?

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. That was the dynasty, that was the power that was ruling over India at the time.

• 21:36Tristan Hughes?

  Right.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  These invasions would become more pronounced in the 5th century, in the first half of the 5th century, Gupta inscriptions left by Skandar Gupta, who was a ruler of the Gupta Empire in the middle of the 5th century. He tells us that, in his inscriptions, Skandar Gupta tells us that his empire had been virtually destroyed. He had just managed to repel these invaders. And so he claims victory in the end, but he does tell us that prior to this so-called victory, his state had been almost completely destroyed. And the reason why the Kiderite pressure on the Gupta's east was because the Kiderites themselves during that time was being eliminated by the second imperial dynasty that took over, which was the Heptolites.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  And so the Kiderites invade India, they also invade Persia.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  And so the Sassanian kings were forced to pay tribute to the Khedirites. And that tribute payment continued until the middle of the the fifth century, when new waves of invaders from the east suddenly put a stop to all of this. So there is a iteration empire in Mongolia that starts to form in the the last few decades of the fourth century. This is the the so-called Ruran Khagunis. Ruran is the the modern Chinese pronunciation of the name. And the Chinese glyphs that were used to write this name means wriggling worms. Wow. Obviously, this is an exonym. The the Ruran would not have called themselves wriggling worms. The wriggling worms.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  This is derogatory name that was given to them by the Chinese dynasts who hated them. But their original name might have approximated Agwar. And and so there is some speculation which would identify them with the later Avars. The so-called pseudo Avars, people claiming to the Avars, they should turn up in Europe as well in the middle of the sixth century. So if we were to assume that the Ruran were the Avars, that helps us to understand what happens next. There is a group of Var, presumably Avars, who are subject to the the main Avars, who then migrate west as part of a vanguard.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  So the the the Avars decide to expand west and a group of them intrude into the the White Honeck realm. And so these group of intruders, these Vars, are led by a new upcoming dynasty called the Heptals or the Yuptals. And we call them the Heptalites. So they come over, they conquer. But of course, they constitute a tiny minority. And so what happens is a mixing of the the original White Honeck elite and these newcomers. And so Our sources tell us that the the two aristocratic rulers of the of the Huns in Central Asia are

• 24:33Speaker 03

  the Huns and the Vars. So some of them are even called Varhuns, indicating the fusing of those two peoples. So there is a dynastic shift that occurs, but the White Huns' stage remains largely intact. The Khedirites obviously don't go down without a fight. They try to hold on, but their Sassanian vassals use this opportunity to launch an attack against them from the west as well. So Yazdeger the Second, the Sassanian king, forms an alliance with the Hefthalites in the middle of the the fifth century, and the Khedirites are initially, they prevail against the Persians, but they're defeated militarily by the Hefthalites. And

• 25:14Speaker 03

  so after the Khedirites are expelled from Bactria, the Hefthalites and the Sassanians carve up what is left of the the Khedirite possessions in Central Asia. But then, Hefthalite kings decide that they're going to take all of it, not just half of it. So as soon as the Khedirites are expelled to India, the Hefthalites decide to turn the tables on the Sassanians. And so they swallow up the rest of the Khedirite, what was formerly Khedirite territory in Afghanistan. And the Sassanians, of course, are not happy. And this leads to a war between the Sassanians and the the Hefthalites.

• 25:54Tristan Hughes?

  I think just before we go into that, because there are some interesting names that we've covered there, and almost just a recap of what you've said there, Hyunjin, because it's a fascinating end to the Khedirites, this first dynasty of the White Huns, how, you know, within the space of a century, they formed this new kingdom in Central Asia, in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan, gained some successes against the Sassanians, almost like subjugated them in in the west, taken over Gandharan, northern Pakistan as well, almost completely destroyed the Guptas. And then all of a sudden, like, I guess, one of the big problems of having a, you know, a kingdom in that part of the world, is you get a new threat from the east coming in, Persia revives and allies itself with this new threat, the Hefthalites,

• 26:36Tristan Hughes?

  and then the Guptas, I guess, revive as well. So all of a sudden, the Khedirites have been looking so successful and expanding.

• 26:43Tristan Hughes?

  And then ultimately, they they fall because of the amount of external pressures on them. So it's really interesting how we do get to that main dynasty we think of, or which seems to be central to the story of the White Huns, the Hefthalites. It actually comes after a fantastic rise and then a brutal fall of the preceding dynasty, the Kiderites.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, and I think the Hefthalites were very opportunistic as well. And the Kiderites, it takes decades for the Kiderites to be phased out. So the Kiderites in India, they survive until the the four seventies. And that's only towards the end of the the fifth century that the Hefthalites managed to completely conquer them. And so Kiderite ambassadors visit the Chinese court in order to presumably form an alliance against the Hefthalites. Nothing comes of that effort. And in the end, they are swallowed up by the Hefthalites. And there is another interesting group called the Alkhans. These are the Red Huns, Al for Scarlet or Red, and Khan of course, Hun. And so the these are the Southern Huns.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  And so the Kiderites, of course, ruled over the region covered by the the Alkhans in India. But then it is highly likely that they were removed and replaced by rulers imposed by the Hefthalites. So our Chinese sources tell us that the later Alkhans rulers, or the the Hanukkah rulers in India, were vassals of the the White Huns and had to obey the White Huns in every way. And so there is that dynastic shift that happens there as well. But that has, that only occurs in the in the the final decades of the fifth century. So, yes, it was a spectacular fall, but they struggled for nearly fifty years.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  Oh, maybe slightly less than that was a was a losing effort. But at least they didn't go out as spectacularly as the Hefthalites. I mean, the Hefthalites, of course, they survive for hundreds of years.

• 28:42Tristan Hughes?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't get too far ahead there, Xin Jin. We don't want to, we don't want to reveal the end just yet. But if we continue the story, right, the Kiderites are now out of the way. The Hefthalites have taken over, and I need to make sure I don't say heptaphlytes. I keep thinking heptathlon, but Hefthalites is how we say it. An uneasy alliance between the Hefthalites and the Sassanian Persians to get rid of the Kiderites. But as you were saying, I mean, that doesn't last for long. It's not long before they start looking westwards to Persia and the lands they control.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, definitely. So the Heptolites, they seize former Hittite territory in Afghanistan, and this leads to war with the Sassanians. And the Persian king Peroz, so Yazeed the II dies, Peroz becomes the new king. And he launches a series of attacks against the Heptolites in order to recover Bactria from them. And in all cases, it ends in disaster. So the first two attempts end in him being captured and having to be ransomed and having to agree to pay tribute to the Heptolites as the Sassanians did before to the Hittites. But Peroz just refused to give up. So he made a third attempt to topple the Heptolites in Bactria.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  And unfortunately, the Heptolites had run out of patience with him. And so in that third battle, he was killed together with his entire army. And then Peroz's successor, Kavod, is literally placed on the throne of Sassanian Persia by a Heptolite army that invades and takes over. And so from that point onwards, until the downfall of the Heptolites, the Sassanians have to pay tribute decades, for literally more than half a century. And an enormous quantity of Sassanian coins are, as a result, are present in Heptolite territory. These very elaborate Sassanian coins that are then overstamped with the Heptolite tangga

• 30:42Speaker 03

  to indicate that these were submitted as tribute to the Heptolite king. And this creates a huge problem for the Shah An-Shah, the king of kings of Iran. Because the Sassanians justified their usurpation of rule over Iran from the preceding R-Sakit dynasty by pointing out that, unlike the R-Sakids, they were more effective in combating Iran's external enemies. And now we're in the situation where we're in a worse situation than the Parthians. At least the Parthians managed to push the Romans back. In this case, it was complete conquest and subjugation. And so the Sassanians start to develop this national myth.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  They start to change some of the traditional...

• 31:30Speaker 03

  Tales associated with the foundation of Iran. And so the legendary house of the Chayanians, who supposedly were these mythical kings who founded Iran. Their stories are altered to accommodate this mysterious group called Turan, the Turanians, who are of course the Huns. And according to the mythology that is created here, coexistence with them is necessary for the time being. But then ultimately, Iran is liberated by the Chayanian kings and the Turanians are expelled after a brief phase of Turanian invasion and domination.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  And so by sort of changing the story that were associated, the stories that were associated with the Chayanians and telling the Iranian people that even the holy Chayanian kings of the past had been conquered by, you know, these raiders from the east. So the fact that we've lost to the Huns is not so shameful after all. And like the Chayanian kings, we will be liberated in the future. That kind of rhetoric has to be specifically created in order to basically skirt around some very uncomfortable questions.

• 32:46Tristan Hughes?

  It shows, doesn't it, how sometimes, once again in the West, we think of the Romans and the Sasanians being the two great enemies fighting each other. And yet for the Sasanians, it sounds like the White Huns were an even bigger problem on their doorstep. And also how the Sasanians, they did not escape. They did not evade the wrath of the Huns, as it were. But Huijun, you also mentioned in passing there how the White Huns, they stamped their Sasanian coins or something like that with a particular mark. What was this mark?

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Yes, this is the tangas. These are

• 33:16Tristan Hughes?

  The tangas.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  It's of insignia that are used by Eurasian states entities. So the Kitterites, so these are like, I'm almost tempted to sort of compare them to European coat of arms that are used by aristocratic houses. And so every aristocratic and royal dynasty during this time in Eurasia has their own tanga. And so In all of their coins, the heptolites, the alcons, the keterites, they imprint their tangas to indicate that this is coinage issued by them. And that is how we can identify which coin is keterite, which coin is heptolite, et cetera. And these Sasanian coins, which are obviously not minted or produced by the heptolites,

• 34:01Speaker 03

  have these tangas stamped on them, indicating that they were meant for the heptolite court as tribute.

• 34:08Tristan Hughes?

  The heptolites, they subdued the Sasanian Persians, they've secured their western flank, but their military conquests don't stop there, if I'm correct. Where else do they look to expand?

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yes, so I mentioned earlier that the heptolites were originally vassals of the Rurun Khaggarish or the Avar Khaggarish in Mongolia and Tristan.

• 34:29Tristan Hughes?

  The wriggly worms.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Wriggly worms, yes, the worm people, according to the Chinese. These horrifyingly dirty people, at least according to the Chinese anyway. But the Rurun Khaggarish started to weaken shortly after the heptolite conquest of the Whitehans. And so, once the heptolites become the ruling elite and the ruling dynasts of the Whitehun Empire, they actually start to expand into former Avar territory. So they conquer the Terran Basin and expand as far east as Wumchi, which is of course the current sort of capital of Chinese Xinjiang, the western province of Xinjiang in modern day China. And so, that puts them in almost direct contact with the Northern Wei, these Mongolian peoples who are ruling over northern China.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  And so, there is frequent embassies going to and fro between the Whitehun court and the Northern Wei court. And the heptolites do not put all their eggs in one basket, so they communicate with these northern sort of dynasts in northern China with the Xianbei. But they also communicate with these, the southern Asian Chinese dynasts as well, in order to play one off against the other. And so, they expand in that direction, they also expand south, obviously. So, these Alkon or Red Hunnuk Kings in India, who were vassals of the heptolites, they continue the Hunnuk expansion into India, which had been halted. Because of the fall of the Kitterites.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  So kings like Toramana and his son Mihirakula, these are vassal kings ruling over the Redhans or the Alkhans. They conquer much of northern India, so the Gupta capital is sacked by them. Indian sources tell us that there are these sort of local sort of minor statelets in the Deccan region and also northern India, which have left us with some inscriptions. So there are inscriptions left by the Hanekins who say, oh, we were victorious and we conquered everybody. And then there are these other Indian sort of inscriptions that say, oh, we vanquished the Hans and pushed them out and wiped them out and so on and so forth. Who is correct? I think, given what happens next, I think it's reasonable to assume that the Hans were

• 36:45Speaker 03

  not wiped out. They do remain in India for a long, long time. And in fact, certain segments of the Hafteites who have basically gone native and have adopted local Indian identities as the Gujara or Pratiharas, they end up ruling northern India until the 11th century, when they are displaced by the Turkic Ghaznabids, these new Islamic invaders who then take over. So they're around for a long time, they weren't wiped out.

• 37:16Tristan Hughes?

  So they do this expansion eastwards as well. You mentioned like Urumqi and also into India. So that by the time we get to, I guess, the mid or approaching the mid 6th century AD, is the White Haneg Empire, is it the superpower of the time? Is it the largest empire in the world at that moment?

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, absolutely. It is the largest territorial state.

• 37:39Tristan Hughes?

  Wow, you don't, because you don't know that?

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Yes, nobody knows that.

• 37:42Tristan Hughes?

  You don't, you don't hear about that in the West, do you?

• 37:44Speaker 03

  Yes, they are the largest empire in the world at the time. And this is an empire that stretches from western China to the borders of the Eastern Roman Empire, from Kazakhstan to central of India. It is a massive place. And so this is probably the largest empire, or probably the old Shunglu Empire in Central Asia was possibly as large or slightly larger, but certainly one of the largest empires to have ever existed until that time.

• 38:10Tristan Hughes?

  That's absolutely amazing.

• 38:21Tristan Hughes?

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• 38:51Tristan Hughes?

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• 39:12Tristan Hughes?

  If we now explore how this empire functioned for a bit, I must start with the military component, given how much land they conquered. Do we have any idea how the White Honeck Army functioned? Should we be imagining just lots and lots and lots of horse archers, or more complex than that?

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Well, much more complex than that. So, the White Huns were, well, according to Procopius and also Chinese sources, incredibly sophisticated and civilized in their eyes, in the sense that the military backbone of the heptolite state obviously were the pastoralist populations that provided the state with much of its military manpower. But there were numerous urban centres, in fact, irrigation canals in Central Asia in places like Sogdiya, and other infrastructure that is needed for the production of surplus foodstuffs. That potential reaches its... they reached their maximum potential during the rule of the heptolites.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  So the heptolites were very, very effective in using local resources. Those resources, of course, were also used to augment their military power. So the cavalry, which formed, as usual, forms the backbone of their armies, yes, they did have mounted archers, but if you look at mural paintings and depictions of heptolite troops, these are not simple barbarians clad in fur. They are... they have the most recent, up-to-date military equipment. Their armour is...

• 40:46Speaker 03

  Is incredibly sophisticated, lamellar armour which could effectively deflect arrows. They are literally medieval knights covered from head to toe in armour and their horses are armoured as well. So they had heavy cavalry, they had light cavalry, they had infantry as well, of course. And every military sort of, everything that is conducive to maintaining a well-functioning military, you would see that in the White Huns army.

• 41:13Tristan Hughes?

  So lamella there, is that kind of a heavy leather idea, is it, or something more than that?

• 41:18Speaker 03

  No, no, no, it's iron plates.

• 41:20Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, my apologies.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  These are small sort of iron plates that are then sewn together. And so if you have just a plate armour, then what happens is that the the Huns bow is so powerful that the plate would be immediately penetrated and that would lead to instant death. So i- if the arrow strikes you from a distance of about a hundred metres, then it is almost certain death. And so those plate armour were useless, but the the lamellar armour was designed in such a way that it would usually deflect most of these arrows and make them bounce off. Even if they did penetrate, there were other layers beneath which would minimise the the damage that is caused by them. So this was top-notch military technology of the time.

• 42:04Tristan Hughes?

  So let's talk about subjugated people of the White Huns. How did the White Huns treat the people that they conquered? Because you mentioned the the T-word earlier, tribute.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Yes, so this was a tributary empire. The Heptadites, they of course governed directly their core territories, so that is Sodia, Bactria, Gandara, et cetera. But when it came to areas that were further away, especially if they came into contact with a larger political entity, like, for example, the Sassanians. What they usually did was not just replace the local rulers and then take over, but so they would co-opt these local rulers and try to rule through them, which of course was much easier. They just, in other words, co-opt the existing administrative apparatuses and govern these states via existing administrative structures. But in the case of the local population, how they ruled them.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  The key to understanding Waiteanic governance is to understand that they were a very typical Eurasian empire in the sense that they allowed, as far as we can tell, religious liberty. All kinds of religions were tolerated by the Waiteans, the Waiteanic kings themselves, sometimes patronized Buddhism, sometimes patronized Hinduism. Wherever they were, they patronized the local practices of the populations that they ruled over. And they also, in many cases, integrated the local aristocracy into their governing structure. What they created can thus be described as a feudal empire. I really, really hesitate to use the term feudal because it can lead to all kinds of

• 43:41Speaker 03

  misunderstandings, but for want of a better term, it is feudal in the sense that, yes, there is the Hepholite Emperor who is ruling at the top, and then there would be senior kings and high-ranking aristocrats who derive from the Waiteanic conquering elite, the Vars and the Huns. But then, at the lower levels, the local rulers, for example, in India, the Rajas and the Maharajas, they remained local dynasts. And so they would be incorporated into the Waiteanic political structure, and their local practices, customs, religions would be respected and would be left to function as they always did.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  All they had to do, of course, was pay taxes and contribute troops to the Imperial Army when they were called upon to do so.

• 44:31Tristan Hughes?

  But it's interesting there because we have covered the Empire of Attila and his forbears in the past in the West, and you've mentioned in that chat the importance of tributes, the fact that, you know, you had the senior king, but then you also had local rulers and that kind of hierarchy of overlords. So it sounds like there are clear similarities between, let's say, Attila's Hunnic Empire and that of the White Huns in Central Asia?

• 44:56Speaker 03

  Yes, the political structure of both empires are remarkably similar, and presumably because both entities derive from the old Hunnic Empire of Eurasia. And so the system through which the Waiteans governed their empire is almost identical to that of Attila's Hunnic Empire in Europe, although they use different titles. And of course, local practices were also Cated for in the the White Hanukkah administration. So there are officials with different sounding names, but the the overarching framework is the same or very similar.

• 45:35Tristan Hughes?

  You mentioned that embracing of local cultures and being in that area of the world. Of course, you've got all those different religions that they're interacting with Zoroastrianism in in Persia.

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:44Tristan Hughes?

  But of course, from India, you've got Buddhism and Hinduism. So do we know how the Hephelahites leaders, the Hephelahites, well, the White Hanukkah Kingdom, how they tolerated these different religions? How much patronage, how much they sponsored these religions in certain areas of their empire?

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. So in India, for example, particular Alkon kings would patronize Shivaism, for example. They would build temples, not just Shivaism. Every branch of Hinduism was patronized. They would build temples all over the place. And when in Rome, do as the Romans do, seems to be the Hanukkah Moshah. So wherever they conquer, they are kings by profession. So once they become kings of a of a local area, what they would do is basically go native and worship the gods that that rule there. And so that is the the overarching sort of Hanukkah approach. In in Bact- so in India, they tend to be more Hindu, but then in Bactria and Subdya,

• 46:43Speaker 03

  there is, of course, patronage of Zoroastrianism as well, but that is more identified with the Persians. And so in Afghanistan and Subdya, Bactria, that area, the the Hephelahites patronized Buddhism. And so there were many Buddhist monasteries, of course, which were built during White Hanukkah rule. And we mentioned this earlier, but the the some of the the largest Buddhist statues ever built in in history were built under the patronage of White Hanukkah kings, the the the famous Bamiyan Buddhas being one of them. Of course, unfortunately, those Buddhas, which were UNESCO heritage relics, they were blown up by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  And so they're no longer with us. But yes, they originally were a spectacular sight to to behold.

• 47:31Tristan Hughes?

  I wish I could ask you so many questions on this Xin Jin, but I presume that we've looked at the militaristic side, the patronage of certain religions. I can imagine that it's also quite a wealthy empire as well, with the Buddhist monks also having links to trade and merchants, and that all these goods were flowing back and forth from the white Hunnic Empire. This isn't like the nomadic people living in yurts idea that sometimes you get of the Xiongnu or the Huns early on. This is a very sophisticated, rich empire in Central Asia, you know, with lots of wealth coming in and presumably wonderful art too.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, and we've been very lucky to discover some of the most beautiful mural paintings that were produced by the Heptalites. Their ornamental art is also stylish in the sort of the the urbane sense. And so, yes, and that is part of the reason why the Chinese would talk about them in these terms, that they were civilized, the most civilized people of the West, according to the Chinese. So from the Chinese perspective, these Heptalites looked very much like themselves in the way that they sort of went about governing their empire, the ways in which they, you know, built urban settlements and practiced culture and practiced Buddhism, et cetera. That all looked very sophisticated and civilized to the Chinese.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  So the Chinese tell us that both the the Heptalite Huns, who are the white Huns who who ruled over Central Asia and India, they're civilized. They also think the the Uyghur Huns, you know, the the weak Huns who were left behind in eastern Kazakhstan were also highly civilized as well. So we we tend to think that the Huns were these nomadic peoples who only practiced pastoralism and who did not have any urban centers, who did not have material culture to speak of. But that is a complete misconception. The Huns, when they were still in Central Asia, were a very sophisticated people, both culturally and militarily.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  And I think the evidence that comes out of Central Asia is proving more by... By the day, that's what we're dealing with is a very powerful military state that is expanding its reach rather than a motley group of savage barbarians roaming aimlessly and then crashing, somehow crashing into the Roman Empire.

• 49:57Tristan Hughes?

  So Hyunjin, we've done a wonderful chat covering so much of the Hephelahid story. I must ask to finish it. What ultimately happens to the White Honeck Empire?

• 50:07Speaker 03

  Yes, it all happened suddenly. The Ruran Kaganate, which had been in decline, was finally overthrown by the Gok Turks, the Turks. So they finally emerge in the annals of history at this time. Bumin Kagan of the Turks and Ishtemi Yabku, his brother, they start conquering an enormous empire, even larger than the Honeck empires that preceded it. So in the middle of the sixth century, the Gok Turks invade the White Honeck Empire after they had overthrown the Ruran or the Avars. And a massive battle takes place in Bukhara, or close to Bukhara, in what was then Saktia, modern Uzbekistan.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  That battle lasted eight days, so it was a colossal conflict. And Afghanish, or Faghanish, the last Heptalite Emperor, found himself at the losing end of that encounter, unfortunately. And so his army was destroyed. And the same thing that happened when the Keterites collapsed happened yet again. So the Heptalites under King Kozrau, the first, they allied with the Turks and invaded at the most opportune time.

• 51:22Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, you mean not the Hephla- So Kozrau, that's the Sasanian king. You said Hephelahid there, right, yes. So the Sasanians and the Gok Turks ally against the Hephelahids.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, sorry. Exactly, exactly. And so, well, they agreed to carve up the Heptalite Empire and the Turks successfully capture Central Asia from the Heptalites. But the Sasanians were less successful in conquering Afghanistan. So Heptalite principalities continue to hold on in Afghanistan long after the fall of the main Heptalite Empire. And of course, the Heptalites in India lasted a lot, lot longer than that. The Turks, of course, after they conquer Central Asia again, have a change of heart, like the Heptolites did when they overthrew the Kiderites and they start invading the Persians. And the same thing happens all over again.

• 52:11Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, Persia, but there again, first with the Kiderites, then the Heptolites, and then finally with the Gok Turks. I mean, so that's the end of the White Hunnic Empire.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 52:20Tristan Hughes?

  But you mentioned this at near the start, that the legacy of the White Huns, it endures for centuries after this point, just not as strong as it had been before.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  Yes, so the Heptolites, they hang on in Afghanistan and in northern India. And they, after, after the Persian Empire is conquered by the Arabs and Islamization of the the Near East and Central Asia occurs shortly thereafter. What happens is, is that the, the, the White Huns, who hang on in Afghanistan and northern India, form a bulwark that prevents the expansion of Islam into the Indian subcontinent for almost four centuries. That is probably one of the reasons why India is still largely Hindu today because of, because the, the White Huns stopped the, the early wave of Islamic conquest from penetrating all the way into central India.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  So in that sense, they contributed a lot to the preservation of India's native culture. And in global history, I think that that was their most important contribution, that they, they did play their part in the preservation of Indian culture and civilization. And in Afghanistan, what's interesting is that the Heptolites later play a major role in the ethnogenesis of the, the so-called Kalaj people. The Kalaj people later morph into many of the, the major Pashtun clans or tribes, like the Giljai Pashtuns and the Abdali Pashtuns. The Abdalis, their name literally means Heptolite. So these are Heptolite Pashtuns.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  And so the Afghan people are infused with a, a new warrior tradition that makes them virtually unconquerable. Prior to the Heptolite or White Huns conquest, Afghanistan was not known for its martial peoples. They were being overrun time and again by invaders from the north or the northeast. But after the Heptolite conquest, the mountains of Afghanistan become the graveyard of empires. So in the 19th century, these Giljai Pashtuns, they of course defeat the British invasion of Afghanistan. In the 20th century, they stopped the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And in the 21st century, they fought off the Americans.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  So yes, the White Huns also played a significant role in the ethnogenesis of the Afghan people.

• 54:44Tristan Hughes?

  Well, Hyunjin, I think that's a lovely way to end this chat. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book on the whole story of the Huns, which includes the tale of the White Huns, it is called?

• 54:54Speaker 03

  It is called The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe. That was published in 2013 by Cambridge University Press. There is another book called just The Huns, which also deals with most of the same topics.

• 55:07Tristan Hughes?

  Hyunjin, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  It's a pleasure.

• 55:17Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there you go. There was Professor Hyunjin Kim returning to the show to give you an overview, an introduction to the fascinating story of the White Huns in Central Asia. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you also be kind enough to leave us a rating, well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com/subscribe.