The Wise Men

The Three Wise Men were kings, magicians, more than three, on camels, walking across deserts and the men who tricked Herod. How can they be all these things? Tristan Hughes is joined by Reverend Professor Lloyd Llewellyn Jones discuss the fascinating history and evolving narratives surrounding these characters from the Nativity story. Together they examine biblical accounts, historical context and artistic depictions of these iconic figures; from their origins in the Gospel of Matthew to their representation in medieval and Renaissance art. Discover how the story of The Wise Men has been interpreted and expanded upon over the centuries and become one of the most enduring Christmas tales. Presented by Tristan Hughes. The audio editor and producer is Joseph Knight, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. Theme music from Motion Array, all other music from Epidemic Sounds The Ancients is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tristan Hughes?

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• 1:02Speaker 01

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• 2:09Tristan Hughes?

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• 3:30Tristan Hughes?

  We Three Kings of Orient are.

• 3:34Tristan Hughes?

  They're one of the most recognisable parts of the Nativity story. The Three Kings, or Wise Men, who followed the Star of Bethlehem to the stable where Jesus of Nazareth was born. But who were these wise men, these Magi from the East? How are they referred to in the Gospel? Where did they come from? What was so significant about the three gifts they brought with them? And how has their story evolved over the centuries? It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today, this December, we're exploring the history, the context, behind the story of the three wise men. It's a fascinating part of the Nativity story, and we're going to explore

• 4:15Tristan Hughes?

  it in depth with Reverend Professor Lloyd Dwellen-Jones, a stalwart and fan favourite of The Ancients podcast. We're going to dissect the story of the wise men as told in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament, looking into the historical context, before then exploring their portrayal in other sources, both in ancient Roman art and in other texts that retell the story of the wise men with some interesting differences, including where the number of these wise men, well, it isn't always three. As always with Lloyd, this was a brilliant chat. He's such a great communicator, and I hope you enjoy.

• 4:58Tristan Hughes?

  Lloyd, hello, my friend. Welcome back to the podcast. Always such a pleasure.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Tristan, hello, and hello all to your listeners as well. Great to be back with you all.

• 5:06Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, it's always a pleasure having you on the podcast. We've had you on recently for Derius the Great and for the Tower of Babel. And we have talked in the past about these figures that are mentioned from the Bible, and then kind of dissecting the stories behind them and the history of these figures and how they're mentioned. And the wise men, as it's nearing Christmas, I mean, it seemed like another great topic to talk about because we've all heard of the wise men. They are such a key part of the Nativity story.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, they are. And of course, they come to us in kind of different guises, in a way, don't they? Because, you know, they are the three wise men, they're the three kings. So, you know, we approach them differently. But they all are part of our sort of Christmas consciousness, really, through a myriad of Christmas carols or Christmas cards, you know, it's a popular image to see. As I always say, you know, I think the Bible is an ancient source which is ripe for plowing. So I refuse to treat it any differently than I would, you know, a work by Plato or a Cuneo from tablet, you know, these are all valuable.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Ancient sources. Of course, what the Bible has beyond that is another level which people engage in, of course, and that is a text of faith as well. So whenever we enter into any kind of historical debate about the Bible, obviously, we always have to take into account that there are people who read this on multiple levels. And I think that's what's really interesting about the process of biblical scholarship is the dealing with the idea of history and faith together.

• 6:36Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, Lloyd, it's also interesting because in the past, we've covered topics like the Babylonian captivity and the Tower of Babel. So stories from the Old Testament, but of course, the birth of Jesus, the nativity, the three wise men, we're going into the New Testament now. Is this for you, when you're approaching a topic like this, do you have to have a different perspective, a different mindset when looking at New Testament compared to Old?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Good question. Yes and no. The yes part is that we're entering into a Greco-Roman world in which Judaism sits. But the no part is, we have to take all of that Hebrew Bible scholarship with us into this world as well. Because there is no disconnect suddenly between, you know, an Old and a New Testament in the Jewish mind of the first century. And of course, the Gospel writers, Paul and his epistles are all rooted not only in the world of Greece and Rome, but also in the world of the ancient Near East and the Hebrew Bible as well. So you've got to carry all of those things with you simultaneously.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  So I suppose you do need sort of different training or coming from it from a different angle, but you also have to maintain all of that Old Testament background too.

• 7:47Tristan Hughes?

  Well, let's now delve into the story of the three wise men and let's start with the traditional story. Now, which Gospel, I mean, which particular source do we have, Lloyd, for the story of the three wise men?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Well, they only occur in the Gospel of Matthew. And this is a maybe a surprise to some people, you know, because when we receive those Christmas cards and we put up our Christmas crush, then of course, what we do, we amalgamate the story of the shepherds with the wise men very often. Now, the shepherds are only mentioned in St. Luke's Gospel. They are particular to that and the wise men only enter into Matthew's gospel and the twain.

• 8:26Tristan Hughes?

  So never together, wow.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Never the twain will meet, absolutely not. The idea of bringing these together in what we call a gospel harmony has been something which has been around since the medieval period. Really, it was Saint Francis who created the first kind of Christmas crash where all of those figures get together. But really by the 19th century, sort of popular family bibles and children's bibles were beginning to amalgamate, to harmonise these two gospel accounts. But the truth is that Matthew's gospel in almost every way contradicts Luke's gospel account of the nativity. They were written with very different agendas for a very different audience.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  So Saint Luke's gospel is very much written for the Gentiles.

• 9:16Tristan Hughes?

  Sorry Lloyd, who are the Gentiles?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  The Gentiles are the non-Jews, so these are the Greeks and the Romans in the wider world out there, and he's trying to proclaim the gospel to non-Jews. Whereas Matthew's gospel is absolutely focused on Jewish identity, the Jewish past, Jewish traditions. And so the agendas for these two things are very different. Saint Luke is all about making the unvoiced voiced. So shepherds, the very poor people, Mary herself, of course, you know, singing the Magnificat. My soul magnifies the Lord. God has, you know, cast down the mighty and are raising up the poor. This is Luke's agenda. Matthew's agenda is completely different. And the other thing to note is that of the gospels, it is only Matthew and Luke

• 10:02Speaker 02

  who have a birth story for Jesus. Mark, our earliest gospel, doesn't have one at all. It was of no interest to Mark and he's our first gospel, probably about 60 AD, so 30 years after the crucifixion. And John completely goes his own way. And of course, the opening of John's gospel is in the beginning was the word. So, you know, it's a far more kind of philosophic idea of the birth of Christ. So it's only the nativity that our whole Christmas is built around is only based on two of the gospels. They say completely different things.

• 10:39Tristan Hughes?

  Well, let's delve into the Matthew version with the wise men. And I think first of all, let's go through the accounts of the wise men and then we can dissect it. As I know you've done, you've done previously Lloyd with your lectures and so on. So let's talk through it.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Okay, so what we have in Matthew, chapter two, and it's just verses one to 12. So it's only 12 verses of the Bible that these guys appear in. Is that we are told that Jesus is born in Bethlehem in the days of Herod. This has to be, we presume, Herod the Great. And then Matthew says that, behold, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, where is he who is born the king of the Judeans? For we've seen his star in the east and we've come to honour him, literally to prostrate themselves in front of him. Herod, one of the great paranoics of history, suddenly starts pressing them for information about, you know,

• 11:36Speaker 02

  who, who is this kid who's supposed to be born, who's going to be a king? And they say, well, we don't know yet, we're on our way to find him. And Herod presses them and says, well, once you've found him, please come back and let me know all about him. So, you know, I can offer him my homage too. So the Magi kind of pay lip service to that and off they go guided by this star, until it leads them to the little town of Bethlehem. And there they see Mary and the infant in her arms. And they go into what is actually called a cave in this point. And they pay homage to the child and they offer gifts of gold, of incense, not frankincense,

• 12:18Speaker 02

  incense is what it says, so it could be any kind of resin, and also of myrrh. And then they have a collective dream. And dreams play a very insignificant role in Matthew's gospel, in which they're told, don't go back to Herod's court, say nothing about this. And we're told that they return home to the east, another route. And that's it, that's all we get. But it's a very important moment because in the Christian tradition, this takes place on the 6th of January, on a feast which the Christian church from at least the 4th century has named Epiphany. So Epiphany, of course, is a Greek word and it means a revelation or a manifestation.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  So if you think about it, you know, in Matthew, there is no other kind of presentation of this Christ child to anybody else. So this is the first time that the world sees the newborn Messiah essentially. And it's an important one in Matthew because the child is seen by non-Jews. The news of this child now can spread to the Roman world essentially and beyond the confines of the Roman world. So that's the importance of it, together with the three gifts that are presented because of course they are highly symbolic gifts in themselves. So we have gold, which obviously is the great signifier of kingship itself. So this heralds the kingship of the infant Jesus.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Then we have incense and incense emphasizes Matthew's use of Christ obviously as the son of God. So as a kind of living God, you know, he receives incense which any gods in the Greco-Roman pantheon would get, you know, clouds of incense. And then myrrh, of course, is highly significant because myrrh was an embalming resin. So it was used in particular for the preparation of bodies after death. And of course, this heralds the idea that the child is born for one purpose and that is to die to save the sins of mankind. So in a way, Christ's Christology is emphasized through those three gifts themselves.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  And that's why actually the gifts are more important than the givers in a way. That's what Matthew seems to be saying in there.

• 14:36Tristan Hughes?

  Well, shall we save the gifts till last then though and start on the givers themselves? And it was interesting, as you were talking through that passage right near the start, I noted that you mentioned the word, you didn't say wise men, you said the word magi.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Well, it is the specific word that Matthew uses. And he's taking here a word which has been around in the Greek world for at least 400 years. And it refers to a priestly caste from Iran, so ancient Persia.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  The magi were already around in the Achaemenid period. These were, according to Herodotus, the kind of living repositories of ancient Persian religious traditions. So they knew the hymns to the Persian gods, they knew the rituals, they kept the scriptures of what we might call the Zoroastrian faith. Now about Matthew's time, we're into a period called the Parthian era in Persian history. And the Parthians were certainly what we might call proto-Zoroastrians. And so they continued using these magi in their religious rituals. They were a kind of caste of their own. So you couldn't apparently train to be a magi.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  You were born into families of magi who kind of then, you know, ran the show. They used the ritual paraphernalia. One of the things that they were instructed with doing was looking after the sacred fire, the non-dying flame. So they are there to keep the flame burning. And of course, Zoroastrianism also believes in the purification of water, of earth, of air. And therefore, the rituals all operate around this. And also with the formula which the Zoroastrians have, which is about always speaking the truth, always aiming to do good deeds and always aiming to say good thoughts as well, to have good thoughts, to speak good thoughts.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And so they're part of this very, very long tradition of Iranian priestly caste. Now, Matthew doesn't say essentially where they're from. He just says, "Magi from the east." But I think we can read into that, basically it is "Magi from Parthia." That's really what he's thinking. So when Matthew thinks about the east, his readers, his listeners would automatically think of Parthia. Because Parthia, don't forget, was the great superpower of the east in this period. It was the continual thorn in the side of the burgeoning Roman Empire.

• 17:08Tristan Hughes?

  And Judea as well. I mean, Herod had had, you know, to fight when he gained control of Judea, he had to wrestle control from a Parthian-supported figure.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Precisely. You know, the Parthians at one point had penetrated into Judea, and Herod and his family had had to run for safety from them. So they were a huge military machine. But also, their culture was spreading and taking hold in this period, including ideas from Zoroastrianism. For, for instance, the creator god, the invisible god. All of this was really influencing what we might call Second Temple Judaism, and had been doing so really since the return from the exile. So I think Matthew is drawing very clearly on this idea of the Parthian magi. Now, of course, magi is related to

• 17:56Speaker 02

  our word magic. And I think there was a sense of these magi being magicians in the Greco-Roman world too. They didn't know, you know, everything about these men. So they thought, oh, there must be kind of magical practices that they do out there in the east as well. It's always been a kind of orientalist trope that Western writers and Westerners generally have had. And so I think they aligned the practice of religion with concepts of magic. And in fact, that's not uncomfortable in a historical sense. You know, you would be hard pressed to put a hair between what is defined as religion, what is defined as magical practice.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  And so there's this element that they are not just priests, but also magicians. And then beyond that, of course, they're also drawing on another ancient Near Eastern tradition of wisdom. These magi being the repositories of wisdom as well, of long traditions of things. And I think what happens in Matthew's Gospel is that it also collapses into that, the idea of things like astronomy and astrology, of course, which, you know, the ancient Chaldeans, Babylonians.

• 19:07Tristan Hughes?

  Babylonians, the zodiac and all of that, yes.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Precisely. And don't forget Babylon now is part of the Parthian Empire at this age as well. And with the link, of course, to the star in The story, then you can see how this whole thing about priests, wise men, magicians, all of it becomes mashed together really, and it's very, very hard to disassociate any of that. And then the final element we've got in all of that, of course, which Matthew doesn't say himself, as we said in the beginning, we call them we three kings, right?

• 19:40Tristan Hughes?

  Yes, that seems quite a jump to go from magicians and wise men to kings.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  But in fact, the use of the kingly title for them does not come in until the 12th century. It's a Middle Ages thing, and we can virtually put it down to the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, who allegedly found the bones of the wise men and installed them in Cologne Cathedral, where you can still see them and honour them today in a beautiful gilded shrine in the middle of Cologne Cathedral. And he began to call them the three kings. And I think that's really interesting because it's part of that whole medieval ideology, isn't it, of kingship? Where Christ bestows kingship on those who are worthy.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  So I think Frederick Barbarossa is using that kind of theology to engrandise himself as well. So that's where we get the the Magi as kings for the first time.

• 20:51Speaker 03

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• 24:10Tristan Hughes?

  Shall we also talk about the star in the east? I mean, Lloyd, what can we explore here for that part of the story? Maybe, I guess, the importance of stars at that time as signs of key events, maybe?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, astronomy and astrology had always played an enormously important part in Near Eastern traditions, and indeed in Greco-Roman traditions as well. And people looked to the heavens for omens, for confirmation of things. And there was a very, very long tradition of this, especially in Babylonia, where we have preserved, even today, hundreds and hundreds of astronomical diaries. So these are observations of the stars and the movements of the planets, which are recorded by professional astrologers, who then write down their findings and are used to predict events. It was a very serious

• 25:01Speaker 02

  business in antiquity. Now, when it comes to the star of Bethlehem, tomes and tomes have been written about trying to identify what this star might have been. Might have been, you know, an early showing of Halley's Comet. And of course, you know, we can pin down times and places. And we do know around about 4 BCE, there was a comet which made an enormous impact. It wasn't the only one in the period, but certainly, there's nothing unusual in Matthew's Gospel about star searching. It goes on a lot. But-

• 25:38Speaker 02

  I think it's there in Matthew for two purposes. First of all, Matthew is drawing on Old Testament Hebrew Bible precedents. And in the Book of Numbers, there is a prophecy which predicts this gleaming star will herald the coming of the Messiah. So he's keen to draw his readers or his listeners into this Old Testament prophecy. But I also think, you see, we should read the New Testament, including the four Gospels, on different levels. And one, of course, can be a faith journey.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  But the other one can be, I think, a subtle attack on the world in which Christianity was born, and that is the Roman world. Now, Matthew, I think, in his Gospel, throughout the Gospel, very subtly has a go at the Romans. Now, he can't do this conspicuously. But you know, with any text, you can do alternative readings, okay? And if you, if you go into a Gospel, including Matthew, with an alternative view, then you can begin to see, actually, there is a critique of the secular world. The world cannot accept or will not accept Christ as its king.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  And we really see that, I think, in the nativity story. First of all, of course, we've got the rejection of Herod. You know, Herod comes over as this terrible king, but also, of course, a collaborator with Rome. That's what he was famous for by the Jews. But the use of the star is something, I think, that Matthew uses to downplay or even contradict the use of a star that had appeared in, in Rome. So we know that the Emperor Augustus

• 27:37Speaker 02

  When he first comes to power after the death of his uncle Julius Caesar, he witnesses a comet in the skies over Rome. And he says, this comet is Julius Caesar being deified. So for Roman astrologers, they saw this blazing star and they said, oh, this is clear evidence that Caesar has become a god. And Augustus, you know, who is pretty adept at propaganda, I think we can all agree, cashes in on this and says, yes, indeed, that is what it is. And he begins to issue coins with his head on one side and on the other side, this blazing star.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  And of course, that coin gets circulated around the whole empire, of course, and a couple of them must have fallen into Judea as well. So this is an image that people would have been familiar with. He also issues a coin showing the deified Julius Caesar with a star and a tail, a comet's tail, above his head as well. And even poets like Ovid in his Metamorphosis talk about this star heralded in the coming of this new son of God. And that's the title that Augustus now begins to use for himself. He is the Divus Filius, so he is the son of God. And that, of course, is the principal title that Matthew uses throughout his gospel for Jesus as well.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  So can you see how basically he is taking the political situation of Rome and saying, ah, ah, ah, do not apply these things to the Roman emperor because that is a dead end. There is no kingdom here. The real empire is the empire of Christ, who was heralded with a star. That's the star that we need to look at. And the only true son of God is Jesus Christ himself.

• 29:27Tristan Hughes?

  And it's also quite interesting because I remember in a previous chat, we flirted with the book of Revelation. And you were saying how things like the horror of Babylon, it was a subtle dig actually towards the Roman empire and you can actually see another subtle dig potentially with the nativity scene as well. So it's interesting how, you know.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  So I think you can read the whole, the whole of the New Testament. With a kind of anti-Roman lens, but they have to do it carefully, you know, because, you know, this is a world of real Christian persecution, don't forget, you know, but they do it. And if you know the code, then you can crack it.

• 30:00Tristan Hughes?

  We've talked about the givers, but before we go on to like depictions of the wise men, the Magi, and then the Magi at Sardau Matthew, let's talk a bit more then about the gifts, because as you you highlighted earlier, this feels like the central part. This is the most important part of the story, you'd argue.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely, because these gifts, which in a way look kind of innocuous, these are the theological linchpins of the story of Jesus according to Matthew, his glorification as a king, his glorification as a god, and his ultimate suffering and death. So basically, these three gifts span the whole biography of Jesus according to the Matthew Gospel, that is to say. So they are of intense importance, really, to Matthew's method of kind of predicting what Christ's story is going to be for his early listeners and readers.

• 30:56Tristan Hughes?

  Well, let's move on to the depictions, because I find this this so interesting, Lloyd. So you have the story written in the Gospel of Matthew. How long is it before this story does spread out of Judea and into the Roman world, or maybe beyond the borders of the Roman world, and you then start seeing actual depictions of the wise men?

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Well, remarkably, it doesn't take too long at all. This is a story that really holds, it really grips people. So the first ever image I've discovered, and I don't think there are earlier ones, is in the catacombs of Rome, and that is the catacomb of Priscilla. And that dates to the early second century CE, we think.

• 31:42Tristan Hughes?

  Do you think she's a noblewoman who's practicing Christianity at the time?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Highly likely, probably one of these kind of noblewomen that use their homes for for church meetings and this kind of thing, you know. So she's obviously a woman of influence to have her own catacomb to begin with. But there's a very now very fading fresco painted on the the wall there, which shows the Virgin Mary.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Seated with the Christ child on her lap. So there's that first image, a powerful image resonate. And then we have these three wise men coming before her. One depicted in a kind of green, one red and another sort of a, in a brown, which is very faded indeed. We can't quite see details of their faces, but we can see that they're offering something. And what is really fascinating, however, is that they are all in Parthian dress. They are all depicted as Easterners, as Parthians. And I think that tradition of depicting those Parthians obviously is drawing from Matthew's gospel.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  But also is another one of those nudges against Rome as well. Because during the Julio Claudian period and into the second century, it became a standard practice to use the image of the Parthian, Parthian captives, war captives, subdued Parthians, to show the grandeur of Rome. So what we often have is, you know, togate Romans being shown homage by kneeling Parthians in their long sleeved tunics and their baggy trousers, this ultimate mark of the orient dress. And I think that what Matthew does is obviously plays up on this idea of these Parthians are coming

• 33:28Speaker 02

  to pay homage to the infant Jesus, but it enters into the visual repertoire very early on in early Christianity in that case, and they are distinctly Parthian. I mean, we have another adoration scene for another female tomb, actually, of a woman called Severa at the beginning of the, probably the third century. And there is no doubt here that the three wise men are in their Parthian outfits. They, they're wearing those Phrygian caps. They have little cloaks on and they're all proffering their gifts before a seated Virgin Mary. And from there on in, on a series of early Christian sarcophagi on ivories, carved ivories of various standards of, of craftsmanship, we have this repeated motif.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Of the seated virgin and child and these three Oriental magi bringing their gifts, always wearing Parthian clothing. Sometimes even they have their camels to accompany them as well.

• 34:27Tristan Hughes?

  Yes, this is what I wanted to get to next, Lloyd. I was like, what? This is almost one of the most important bits for me. When do we see that great addition to the wise men's story, the addition of camels?

• 34:36Speaker 02

  The camels are there by the early fourth century, certainly. And they're kind of interestingly distributed amongst the wise men. They very often look over the wise men's shoulders. And that's when you then get also the buildup of a menagerie in these scenes. So you get the ox and the ass and all of that kind of stuff building up at this time too. But we also have, oh, I mean, exquisite mosaics from the late fourth into the fifth century. And, you know, a wander around Rome is really worth it for this, you know, spot your wise men. In Santa Maria Maggiore, for instance, there are some very early fifth century stunning colorful mosaics of the three wise men in their very, very distinctive Parthian outfits.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  But I suppose the the finest example of of them all is if you go to Ravenna in East Italy, of course. There they are represented in the Basilica of Santa Polinario Novo. And it's probably the most beautiful representation we have of them.

• 35:39Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, look, before we delve into the details of that, is it the case that before Christianity becomes the main official religion of the Roman Empire, you get these these couple of almost kind of secretive cases of the wise men? And afterwards you see more elaborate, you said, say, mosaics, beautiful depictions?

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely. After Constantine and the conversion of the empire, I mean, they they become conspicuous. And I think why the wise men become so much more important than, say, the shepherds of Luke's gospel is because of the idea of paying homage to Christ as you would pay homage to the emperor. And also the universality of the experience as well. These wise men come from afar. And I think that really appeals to the sensitivity of Christian Roman. Empers as well, of course. So you see them in abundance and the Ravenna Merseyside are absolutely stunning. The three of them are shown very distinctly as well. One of them with a grey beard and for the first time they are named as well.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  So we get in this particular lineup, we get Balfazar, we get Melchior, and we get Gaspar in this particular lot. But in fact, over the centuries, the names change quite a lot. So there's variations on the theme. So we have Gaspar, Jasper, Jasper, Gathsp, Balsar, Bilturzar. Variations on these three names essentially. In another one of the Ravenna reliefs, actually, this is the very famous depiction of the Empress Theodora.

• 37:12Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, yes, with Justinian and Belisarius. Yes, beautiful.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  She is wearing a magnificent purple robe and embroidered into the hem of that robe are the scene of the three wise men again.

• 38:08Speaker 04

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• 39:15Tristan Hughes?

  Look, we focused on the Roman world, and I mean, just before we go on to names and numbers and outside the gospel of Matthew, do you ever see any, is there any surviving arts from, well, the place where the wise men supposedly came from, from Parthia, from Iran and Iraq? Do we have depictions outside of the Roman Empire?

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Yes and no. So, I mean, we can go to Dura Europa, which is in modern day Syria, and there in some early churches, but also depicted in a synagogue, are scenes of Parthian dressed biblical characters. So Xerxes in the Book of Esther, for instance. But we can't be specific, you know, obviously in a synagogue, you're not going to get representations of gospel characters. So we don't get a holistic representation of the three wise men as far as we can see. But what we can tell from the Dura Europus images is that the Western images of these

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Parthians really are very true to the source materials, I suppose. They are definitely meant to be Parthians.

• 40:22Tristan Hughes?

  Now, does Matthew actually say three?

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Never, never, never, never. He never says three wise men. He never just says three magi. He simply says, "Magi from the east came to Jerusalem bearing gift." There are three gifts. That is kind of defined, as we can see from the early church, the number of magi that are supposed to be around. But in fact, there's nothing to stop us believing that there weren't Two magi and they brought an extra gift, or there were twenty magi and they just shared the cost between them. So Matthew is not specific about that whatsoever. And so that leaves big gaps in the imagination for other people to get involved with, because we have

• 41:07Speaker 02

  to remember that in early Christianity, there were other traditions, including nativity stories, which didn't make the final cut of the New Testament.

• 41:18Tristan Hughes?

  But these the apocryphal gospels and stuff.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, apocryphal gospels, exactly. So one of the best known is the pseudo Matthew. So as the title suggests, you know, based on the original gospel of Matthew, in which there are, again, not a number specified, but they take their three gifts and they give them to Mary. And in this gospel, and we're given something of their feelings, they are filled with joy at seeing the Christ child. So that's something that's extra to Matthew. But then we have an amazing sixth century text, which was found in Egypt, and we call this the Arabic infancy narrative, which is really quite remarkable, because

• 42:01Speaker 02

  there, after the wise men, numberless again, give their gifts, Mary unwraps the swaddling bands of the infant Jesus, and she gives them to the wise men as a gift to take back home with them. And as they get, when they get home, they take these swaddling bands and they burn them in the sacred fire. So there's a step back to Zoroastrianism again. But when the fire dies, the swaddling bands are untouched. And so the wise men recognize that these are relics of a holy child. And so they begin to convert the East to Christianity.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  And they are joined a couple of decades later by Saint Thomas, one of the disciples, who begins to also work with them as well. So that's a, you know, an elaboration on the original story from Matthew.

• 42:59Tristan Hughes?

  This is a story of what happened next almost.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, what what happens when they got home. But we also have, I think, the the most magnificent retelling of all comes from a very strong Syriac tradition. And don't forget, the Syrian church in antiquity was the main contender, really, you know, it was huge. And, you know, if history had just gone a little bit differently, we could all today be Syriac Christians, you know, that was such a powerful tradition there. We have a text which dates to the fifth century, but clearly was several hundred years old before. So we can date it, I think, to the second century, in which we have, brace yourself, not three wise men, but 12 wise men.

• 43:43Tristan Hughes?

  That's a lot of camels there as well, though.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  That's a lot of camels. They are the heirs of families of wise men. Their names are all given to us. They're all Persianate names. And the names of their fathers are all given to us. So we've got 24 wise men all together in in this particular story. And they, the 12 of them, travel to Jerusalem, they find the baby in Bethlehem, they pay homage to him with their three gifts. But the difference is that each one of the wise men, each of the 12, gives Mary a coin of gold as well. So, you know, she's got 12 coins, plus the incense, plus the myrrh in that tradition as well. And it's a great shame, really,

• 44:28Speaker 02

  that that story isn't so well known, but because it was a real contender for many, many centuries, it's now preserved in a text which scholars call the revelation of the Magi. So it's that moment when they see the the Christ child. And they too are tasked with converting the East to Christianity.

• 44:46Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, this leads me to another question, which can concern these accounts and other accounts, because it seems a similar thread throughout, that you have these important figures in another religion, being involved in this key story of the birth of Jesus, and of course, with the story of Christianity. Do you think that's an interesting thing to explore, how you have figures, you know, important wise figures from another religion that isn't one of the Abrahamic religions, very key and central to the nativity story?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  I think it's very important, and I think it's. The synergy between what we can call Zoroastrianism and Judaism and Christianity have been simmering away for centuries. And I think we can see Zoroastrian influences in Judaism by the Second Temple period and certainly in early Christianity. So I think Matthew is picking up on something which is genuine. And I think it also allows his audience into a more universal picture of what Christ is all about. Because if you think of how Matthew presents the infant Jesus, what he's essentially doing

• 45:56Speaker 02

  is he's retelling the story of Moses for a Christian Jewish audience. Because of course, what happens after the wise men go home, according to Matthew, is that we have this terrible slaughter of the innocents in Bethlehem, which of course would immediately have reminded listeners of the slaughter of the of the boys in Egypt under the Pharaoh as well. So Jesus is presented as a second Moses in Matthew's Gospel. And so the inclusion of the wise men into that story says to the Jewish listeners, readers of that story, look, there's also a bigger framework in which this new Messiah can be placed as well.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Yes, he's here for the Jews as the new Moses, but also there is the epiphany that he has come for the Gentiles as well.

• 46:48Tristan Hughes?

  Well, this is absolutely fascinating. You mentioned earlier figures like Calvin, and I'm presuming for you, it must also be interesting, you know, knowing all of this about the wise men, the original story, but also these other stories outside of Matthew, then seeing how over the centuries, medieval, Renaissance, even into more, more recent history, I guess, seeing figures that have been exploring this story, you know, the great debates they have in regards to the whole and nature of the wise men. I mean, the legacy of the wise men is another podcast in its own right.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  I think that's what's really fascinating about biblical materials, you know, because they've had such an important afterlife, really, you know, the biblical characters themselves as they appear in scriptures are simply the tip of the iceberg, aren't they? Because it's what we've done with them over the centuries, which really gives them their cogency and makes them such persuasive characters, really. It's the reception history which I find really fascinating.

• 47:45Tristan Hughes?

  Lloyd, this has been absolutely fantastic. I mean, is there any reading or anything you'd recommend around this if people want to learn more?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  I would recommend for a real alternative, you know, sort of Christmas, if you wanted to do that, read The Revelation of the Magi, which is now available in a really good English translation by Brent Blandow, and it's available in hardback and paperback. Google that and you'll find copies of it. It's a really fascinating read.

• 48:12Tristan Hughes?

  Brilliant. Well, Lloyd, it just goes to me to say thank you so much, as always, for taking the time to come back on The Ancients.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  You're very, very welcome.

• 48:23Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there you go. There was Reverend Professor Lloyd Llewellyn Jones talking all things the wise men. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget, you can listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com/subscribe. That's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.

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• 49:35Speaker 04

  Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet, many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence

• 49:55Speaker 04

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