JAŸ-Z in 8: Inside the Series

In this special episode taken from a live event in London, Rick Rubin and Daniel Kaluuya join Ayishat Akanbi for a conversation about the making of JAŸ-Z in 8, a new eight-part documentary series exploring JAY-Z’s life, music, and creative process. JAŸ-Z in 8 premieres September 18 on HBO in North America, and on MUBI everywhere else. Works mentioned: 4:44 Smile Regrets Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem) Vol. 3… Life and Times of S. Carter The Ghost of Soulja Slim — Jay Electronica featuring JAY-Z

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetra Grahamington.

• 0:25Rick Rubin?

  There are so many Beatles documentaries, so many McCartney documentaries, and almost all of them seem to be about the same thing, either Beatlemania or songwriting, both of which, great topics. But there's a whole other world, and I was interested in the musicianship aspect of it. And I couldn't find books or films about the Beatles as musicians, so that was the focus of 321. Having that experience, thinking, who's a popular artist who may not be seen as they actually are? And I thought about Jay, because people think about Jay as a great businessman, executive, billionaire, married to Beyonce. I just thought it'd be really beautiful to show that artistry,

• 1:09Rick Rubin?

  because without the artistry, none of the other stuff happens. And I'm so happy he decided to do it.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially because he doesn't really do many interviews. I don't feel like, watching it, it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever heard him speak at such length before.

• 1:24Rick Rubin?

  I remember hearing that you wanted your first album to be your only album. That was your original plan. Tell me about that.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  I don't know where that thought came from, but it was serious for me. I had these goals. I have one record, it'll go gold, and now it'll be it. And then I'll have this company. I've always thought like a businessman, you know? It was like I was fighting an artist. I didn't love being an artist. I didn't like shooting videos. I didn't like interviews. I didn't like speaking. I was pretty much introvert. This was the way I spoke. I would never talk like that if you were sitting around me. People that sat around me was like, "Go look it up." Everyone says, "He was so quiet. He never said anything, blah, blah, blah." I would never talk like in those days. I would never have a conversation, you know?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  And it was part of the, you know, my job. Not talking to people, keep yourself thing, stay in the shadows. You a hustler? You gonna be on TV? That goes against everything. Who are you? There's no early footage of me. I would never let any cameras come around me. Film me? Oh, no, we gonna have a fight. Like, there's gonna be a problem filming me. So, everything I was doing was counterintuitive to how I lived. And I didn't like the music business. I wanted to do it, because I had a dream and I had a talent to do it, but I didn't want to be in--

• 2:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you didn't aspire to be an artist.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't aspire to be an artist. Yeah. So, I was like, "I'm gonna do this, and then I'll have a company."

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Daniel, to some people, you and Rick linking up is a bit of an unlikely pairing. And so, I wonder, what was it about your conversations or things that you share in common that made you think that you guys should actually work together?

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Then we happily hanging out, and then he said, "I wanna show you something." And then he showed it to me, and I was like, "I liked it." "These are my thoughts." And he mentioned my Jay-Z thing, and I was like, "Oh, cool." He said it's eight hours long, so I was ready. Eight hours. Then by like three and a half, it was so dense. It was hard. It was like, it's deep. But then I was, I wrote some thoughts that I had about it. So, I was like, "Oh, this, and that, and this, and that, and this." Remember, he said verbatim, he was like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I think you do that. So, why don't you do it?" And then I was like, "What you mean?" He said, "You do it." And I was like, "All right, cool," and I did it.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  And what's mad is that, like, I just, I love music, and it's like, I get bored of modern music. It's no feeling in it. There's money in it. And then like, I just finished listening to Jay-Z chronologically, just randomly. I was just like, just going to my favorite artist and listening chronologically. So, yeah, it wasn't like, "Oh, let's work." It was just that kind of like, he had this idea, and I had thoughts about it. Then I just was invested.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think I share your sentiments, especially perhaps where rap listens in some, that there isn't as much feeling as a lot of the rap artists that I grew up on. Because I think that for a lot of people, Jay's always spoken about as one of the best to ever do it. But I think for a lot of modern rap listeners, that's not necessarily something that's apparent to them. They don't really understand why that is. And so, you know, rap is always something that I consider to be like my first musical love. It introduced me to politics. It sparked my interest in social issues. I wonder, what does hip-hop maybe mean for the both of you?

• 5:00Rick Rubin?

  Well, it came along at a time, I was going to school at NYU, and some kids in school had mixtapes, and there was no hip-hop on the radio. It was a totally underground form of music, same time as punk rock music. I was listening to more punk rock at the time. And I started listening to these tapes, and it felt like, it feels just like punk rock to me. It had the same energy of young people, street level, something to say, saying it. It wasn't from the conservatory, and that spoke to me. And then, when I went to NYU, I started going to hip-hop clubs. There was one in the Grill, which was a reggae club, six nights of the week. And one night a week, they had hip-hop.

• 5:45Rick Rubin?

  And I would go to that every week, Tuesday nights. And at that time, the only records that you could buy that were hip-hop really were for DJs. They would be 12-inch singles, but very limited. And none of them had the energy that I experienced going to the club. So, as a fan, I just wanted to make something that sounded more like what I heard at the club. Really like documentarian of hip-hop. And those were the first Def Jam records.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  And Daniel, about you, what's your relationship with hip-hop?

• 6:17Speaker 03

  I was only 40 in my household, like, so it was more R&B, it was in my house. I had basically child Lauryn Hill. And then, I just recorded everything on the radio, like HF or DJ 279. I would just record rap, like, that's all I would do, is just listen to music. And I would go on holiday with my mom and dad, and just have CDs, like Biggie 2. Jay, listen, listen, listen. And now, I look back, it could feel just articulating what was happening to me that I wasn't able to like, talk about, and all the feelings I had and the frustrations I had. It was like painting my inner world, you know?

• 6:50Speaker 01

  One of the things you said earlier, Rick, was about how this documentary kind of shows a side of Jay-Z that we don't really know or get to experience very much. And I remember being quite struck by, there's a tenderness. There's a real tenderness to him, and a real sort of eloquence to the way that he articulates himself. And you know, I think a lot of musicians outside of rap can really struggle with, which is why they are often drawn to music. And I remember feeling emotional at certain points, particularly when he spoke about the relationship with his father. And I wonder, was there anything for you, Rick, that you found surprising?

• 7:24Rick Rubin?

  So, many things. The fact that he never wanted to be an artist, really. Like, the whole thing happened to him, and he never wanted to be famous. The worst part of his job is that he feels like he doesn't really have the personal life that we all have, because fame comes with all these traps. And again, he's not complaining. He says, you know, he's thankful that it all worked out the way it did. But it wasn't anything he was looking for. He wasn't yearning for fame. Just the opposite. He wanted to be in the background, always. So, that was one of the things that kind of blew my mind. But many, many, all through it, I've seen interviews of Jay from the past, and he's always been rapper Jay-Z.

• 8:08Rick Rubin?

  In the same way that before he was rapper Jay-Z, he was drug dealer Jay-Z. So, there was always this mask, and you never knew what he was thinking. And he would only give you what he wanted to give you, but you never really felt like you got to meet him. But I knew him in real life. I knew him. And here, everyone gets to see, this is really him. And the fact that it's as long as it is, at the end of it, you really know him. And a friend of his, Tata, who's been with him from the beginning, watched the whole thing. Crying. Now, he's been with Jay every step of the way since kids in school, every step. And he watched it and he said, I didn't know half of what he said.

• 8:50Rick Rubin?

  And this is someone who's with him every day of his life. Because he doesn't talk, he is a very private person. And he felt comfortable and opened up. I'll tell you some of the secrets of the way this was made. It wasn't a film shoot. When you go to a film shoot, there are cameras all around. And there's a big production with a lot of people. And then in the middle of all of this technical stuff, there's an actor or two in the middle doing some little thing. But to the hundred people on the set, that's insignificant. They're working on the technical aspect of it. I went to visit Robert Downey Jr. when they were making the movie Iron Man.

• 9:33Rick Rubin?

  And there were a thousand people working. And he would go out on stage to do his thing. And of the thousand people there, I think there was maybe one who even paid attention to what he was. He was totally insignificant in this giant machine. And I remember thinking, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. So the way this was made was Jay knew we were making this. But in the space, there were no cameras in the space. Couldn't see any cameras, couldn't see any people. We walk into the building together alone. One guy comes over and puts mics on us and leaves. And then we step out into this big room.

• 10:15Rick Rubin?

  And we sit at this table and start having this conversation. And within seven minutes, you realize it's not a film shooting. And we are two people in this big, empty room. It's dead silent. And we're having a real conversation that goes on for hours and hours and hours over several days. So the reason you haven't seen him like this before is because you couldn't make it the way you normally make things and have it feel like this. No one came and said, okay, action, let's go. It wasn't like that.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  I was gonna ask, you know, how did you create the conditions to get him that comfortable to open up in that way?

• 10:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's like, it's felt exactly like this. It felt like we're having this conversation. We're not on the P A. I'm really in the moment with you having this conversation. It's like that. It's a very intimate thing. And because it was silent, because there was nobody else in the space, you couldn't see anyone. All the people working were all dressed in black and had no shoes on. So everything was silent in the place. And they were all hidden and far away and in the shadows.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  My favorite line was, Jigga Man is diesel when I lift the eight up. So diesel meaning strong, he's cock diesel. And then the eight, referencing a gun, a thirty-eight. He said diesel when I lift the eight up. But the second meaning of that, when Kobe and Shaq won the championship, there's a famous photo of Shaq holding him in his hand. Jigga Man is diesel. They called Shaq Shaq Diesel because he was so strong. Jigga Man is diesel when I lift the eight up. Kobe number was eight.

• 11:58Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So he had Kobe in his hand.

• 12:01Rick Rubin?

  So cool.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  And so another element of the documentary that I really love is how you draw attention to the lyrics, not just on screen. But you know, Jay-Z gives the context behind them. And despite rap containing more lyrics than most genres, if not all genres, I still think lyrics can often kind of go over the heads of some people. So was it really important for you both to have that element, you know, where he's breaking down his lyrics?

• 12:29Rick Rubin?

  That was the initial premise of the whole thing was showing Jay-Z through his lyrics. If you could read them, you could see the care, skill, difficulty, complexity in those words. That if you're not reading them, you would never know it. You know, you might know the hook of the song and you might like the beat and you might sing along. But nobody knows what he's really saying, except a tiny, tiny portion of the audience. So that was the, really the hope was to find a way to share what a great artist he is. And his art is lyrics. That's his, that's his art.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Daniel, how about?

• 13:15Speaker 03

  The words on the screen give it objectivity. And so it removes the prejudice that lives in the idea of how we see rap. So what happens is, is that like there's, there's things in the idea, the concept of rap, how it lives in society and culture that stops you from really listening to what these guys are doing. Like I'm really seeing what I'm hearing and connecting to it. It allows you like a bigger picture into what they're actually doing, is what I feel.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  I think one of the surprising elements for me is that seeing the lyrics on screen and you realize that nothing is stellar. Like everything is very layered. I think we're constantly bombarded with this idea that our attentions are the worst they've ever been in human history, you know, our attention span is what I mean. You know, what made you confident that you could do a documentary in this style without much other footage, just Rick and Jay talking and still hold people's attentions? Was there ever something that you were nervous about?

• 14:10Speaker 03

  I should think we're here to do stuff that hasn't been done before. I don't care what people do. Smile. We're here to make art, no? Good art. I think it's just like, what is it? Industry or artistry? What side do you want? If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Don't watch it. If you like it, watch it. Like is that kind of like, why are we, why are we kind of internalizing and judging us? Connect to who it needs to connect to.

• 14:36Rick Rubin?

  I feel like if you like Jay-Z, longer's better. I know if there's something I'm interested in, I want more, I don't want less. So maybe it's not for everybody, but for the people it's not for. They won't even like one episode. But the people who like it, maybe eight's not enough.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Rick Rubin?

  You know, it can go on forever if you're really interested.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I wonder if there are any moments during the documentary, is there anything in particular, you know, that you can maybe talk about that you're quite excited for audiences? Thank you, Daniel.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  There's so much. Like 444 is a great, you know, it's like, at that point, you had to listen to it back.

• 15:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, that's one of the most incredible things is this is a song that's one of his most personal songs. Came out several years ago. And I said, let's listen to it. And first thing he does is he reacts like, oh, you're gonna make me listen to this? And then we listen to it. And the first thing he says is, I haven't listened to it since I recorded it, never. And it's the most personal song you've ever heard. But the fact that he could record something so personal and share it with the world, but it would be too much for he himself to listen to. He told a story also with his mother where he lyrics that he could never say to his mother.

• 15:55Rick Rubin?

  Yet he puts it out on a record for the world to hear and the mother hears it as part of it. But we learn from this that his way of communicating, his only way of communicating is through lyrics. That's how we know him. That's how anyone knows him. That's how his family knows him, is through what he puts in the words. Because if it's not in the words, it's not what's happening with him and he won't say it.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Man, I can't believe I wrote that. So again, I was twenty-seven, but still early in my career.

• 16:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And you're saying that as a person, you wouldn't have said these things in real life?

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Not a chance. That's crazy. And I was saying also that the first time, you know, hearing this would be on record. It wasn't like it was a heads up either. It wasn't like some, let me sit down, this is what I'm saying. Like 444 is way different when I wrote that smile by my mom. It was a conversation, like, hey, this is, listen to this. The first time, my first time hearing it, she was like, no, that's my story to tell. And I was like, yeah, but you know, I mean, meant to you do this process.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  And it was like a real conversation until like maybe a month later she came to L A. And she had written that poem on the plane. And she came like, listen to this. And it was like, it was like her saying yes and the blessings and like the completion of a real, healthy conversation about speaking about certain things, you know? This was unhealthy. It was just, like you said, it was therapy for me, but it wasn't all the way fair to people.

• 17:45Rick Rubin?

  But let's talk about what's going on in your head to allow this to come out in your art. Even that is radical.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 17:53Rick Rubin?

  These are the words not to be said. And you're Laying it out.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  This was the only place, was my only outlet for to, to release these. You know, you could hear the shame and guilt in all of these verses. I say later on a thing, in more than one way cocaine numbs the brain. Like you, you start numbing yourself to things that you would never do.

• 18:16Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Like you start losing yourself in that, like it's always like, I always say it's two sides of substance abuse. You know, people get addicted to that feeling and adrenaline to be in hustlers and being in that life that like, you know, you start overlooking things. You have to, you have to compartmentalize.

• 18:38Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely, to be able to do it.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  To be able to do it.

• 18:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 18:42Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, you have to like make these versions of yourself. You have to splinter off into all these little versions to justify what you're doing. Say, I'm gonna do that, but I'm not gonna do this. I'll sell drugs to this person, but I won't sell to a pregnant woman.

• 18:57Rick Rubin?

  But you end up living in a really small box.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I could hear like just dealing with that. Like dealing with that and dealing with, in a real, that was like, like in a real way, like.

• 19:08Rick Rubin?

  In a real way, in a poetic way, you feel the emotion in it. And in the context of someone who's, you hear bragging on records, this is shocking.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:20Rick Rubin?

  It's shocking.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  It was always the moment, and that's what I believe was the last song on the album, like when the last song came there where I was super introspective, even on the first album, the last song is regrets. When I was young, you used to hold me. It's a rapper saying, you used to hold me. You told me I was, another song to my mind. When I was young, you used to hold me, told me I was the best. Everything, only thing I want is only that regret. In order to survive, had to learn to live with regrets. Again, this compartmentalization of like, I had to put away those feelings. I couldn't deal with regret and mistakes. You gotta, you gotta keep going. Can't dwell on it. Aw, man, I did that, ah, keep going.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  And once you start doing that, obviously you burying your feelings and burying those feelings, they're not going anywhere.

• 20:12Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  They're there.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  I wonder, and maybe you have kind of touched on it a little bit with your last answer around, you know, artist or industry, what side are you on? Is there any advice that you would give to emerging artists in film or music? You know, what qualities do you think are needed today to be a trailblazer in a time where, you know, we live in an attention economy where everyone is seeking for idols? So what is important for you to perhaps say to emerging artists?

• 20:41Speaker 03

  I think, to be, so you're there to express, you're there to impress. So if you're there to impress, then go on and you're gonna be, you know, running about and trying to go, these execs are going, well, I don't think so. These people that are non-artistic telling you about your art and then you're like, yeah, no, no, no. Like, what? That makes sense to me. And I think that like, what he was talking about, I don't think he's like trying to be like, just, just let it out. Had stuff I wanted to express and that was my, my language of doing it. That was with the tools that I had available. And then when I got more tools, I'd do it in different, different ways. But it's like, the fullness of the expression, just do it, just let it out. And don't, don't worry about the outcome. It's easier said than done, but it's easier said than done.

• 21:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I would say the same. I would say make it totally personal, make your favorite thing, you're the audience. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you get a lot of criticism, that's fine. If people hate it, that's fine. It's actually better if people hate it than if they don't care about it. So if you make something that, that warrants some energetic reaction, good or bad, that's better than mediocrity. So go hard, whatever you do, take it as far as you possibly can and see what happens.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, this one is, you know, just for me because I always feel like I can, I get to know people sometimes through the music that they like. And, you know, I always think what we gravitate to, what we essentially vibrate to speaks volumes. So, you know, out of curiosity, you know, what is some of your favorite Jay-Z song?

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Okay, what's a great moment, yeah, in this, right? Is when he said he figured out, when, when he did Hard Knock Life and he figured out how to like combine the real story of what he's been through in melodies. And he like opened that door. And then like, I listened to that album the other day, yeah, volume three, and I think I just love volume three. Just how he sonically grew. And it was just like, yeah. And I, I think that album means a lot to him, yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, you're right, maybe it's an album, maybe song is too difficult.

• 22:53Rick Rubin?

  No, I'll say there's a, there's a, the opening song on the Jay Electronica album, I don't know what it's called, but it starts with Jay rapping and he's just on fire. I can't, I can't believe we didn't include it now that I think about it. I can't believe we didn't include it in the series.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  So that's the opening song on the Jay Electronica?

• 23:10Rick Rubin?

  It's the opening song on the Jay Electronica, and it's weird because it's Jay Electronica's album and the first thing you hear is Jay-Z and it's insane. So that's the first thing that comes to mind is like the Jay-Z that I love.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  So for all of us who don't know that, I don't know, I'm not sure if I know that one, or maybe, but anyway, we should check that out. Okay, so is this a creative venture between the two of you that we can expect more from perhaps?

• 23:33Rick Rubin?

  Hope so.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:34Rick Rubin?

  Very good.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're good, man.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Okay, well, well, we look forward to that and, and thank you again for, for making this wonderful documentary.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  Tetragrammatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  What may fall within the sphere of Tetragrammatin? Counterculture? Tetragrammatin. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammatin. The avant-garde? Tetragrammatin. Generative art? Tetragrammatin. The tarot? Tetragrammatin. Out of print music? Tetragrammatin. Biodynamics? Tetragrammatin. Graphic design? Tetragrammatin. Mythology and magic? Tetragrammatin. Obscure film? Tetragrammatin. Beach culture? Tetragrammatin. Esoteric lectures? Tetragrammatin. Off the grid living? Tetragrammatin. Alt spirituality? Tetragrammatin. The canon of fine objects? Tetragrammatin. Muscle cars? Tetragrammatin.

• 25:07Speaker 05

  Ancient wisdom for a new age. Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn.